Sylhiri
Sylhiri
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- Sylhiri
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@Deathstroke said:
Yes tunneling/camping wins games and in fact now you need to tunnel or camp to win if you spread hooks you end up getting 8 hooks but not single kill. So at some poing you have to tunnel and take someone out or camp if there is opportunity.
Just played 2 games other with 9 hooks and 1K and other 4K with 11 hooks. First game I intentionally did not tunnel and always went after different targets I had opportunities take people out with camping or tunneling but didn't so then I notice I have 8 hooks but all gens got done and everyones alive so I was only able to get 1K.
Next game I decided I will tunnel/camp if I get opportunity. So I got 5 hooks and notice 2 gens left so now is time to get someone out and one survivor was on struggle phase on hook about to die and I had 99 tier 3 on myers so I decided to camp and popped the tier 3 on rescuers. Then hooked them and won the game quickly. Now if I didn't camp/tunnel same would happen like in last game 8 hooks without any kill.
So basically "I am losing" *activates tunnel mode* "I am now winning.
This is generally why incentives wouldn't work, lol
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Pretty sure if there was modding, it wouldn't be modding in a true sense. It would be more like the "modding" that Overwatch has where you get a set amount of parameters to tweak. Not graphical changes, strictly number changes.
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There is a pretty small window of the amount of survivors and generators remaining where it's equal or advantageous survivability/death rate. Generally why people rush gens from the start.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3407901#Comment_3407901
Your team can definitely win while you are dead in CS:GO. That is the point i'm making, you see escaping as the only definition of "winning" when really its about how many of your team escapes. Just because you specifically die doesn't mean you lose. What about battle royale games where you play on teams? You can die, while your team actually goes on to win, would you still see that as you losing?
On a mechanic level, you lose if you die. Me getting a big chunk of BP for leaving while you don't because you die on hook kinda points to that conclusion.
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@drsoontm said:
The tunneling didn't start with 6.7.0
The destruction of the other tactics (e.g. regression) has made tunneling the one remaining option for a killer who wants to win.
The change in DH only made the game more difficult for survivors who cannot play without it. And most will adapt in a few days.
"The destruction of other tactics"
You could probably make the same case for Survivors.
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This is the inevitable result of wanting snowball mechanics.
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@Maelstrom808 said:
I don't think RNG should be removed, but the extreme and problematic possibilities need to be fixed/removed. Things like totem spawns that are essentially out in the open, ridiculous three gens, hook spawns that either have multiple hooks within spitting distance or miles apart, tile spawns with long continuous chains of vaults and pallets or massive dead zones.
Fix the things that make RNG so infuriating at times for both sides, and it's fine.
Might as well just make map variations by hand at that point.
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@Veinslay said:
Cries about how being slugged on the ground for 4 minutes is boring
Also sits in exit gates for entire EGC to wait to teabag the killer
- survivors
How do you know it's the same survivors?
Or is it just easier to put people in a single group to hate on them?
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*me sitting in a chair eating popcorn watching the devs try to fix bullet holes with bandaids*
A tale as old as time.
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You could always make escapes give you a percentage of additional blood points (10-15%) instead of a set amount. You can have a additional percentage (maybe 5%) of additional blood points added for each survivor that is alive (and also not not slugged or hooked) when you either die or escape.
So if you get tunneled, you at least get an additional amount of blood points as a compensation for such a short match but not as much as a 4 man escape.
It also encourages people to get the most amount of survivors out for additional points instead of the flat bonus for ditching the one person on hook.
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Funny thing, there is one version of DBD that the killer cannot tunnel a survivor out of the game and is greatly incentivized to hook each different player.
The board game.
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@sluc16 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3405390#Comment_3405390
I always payed surv until recently started killer
You must have the worst luck in the world because I'm in the same situation but I have to actually try to lose so the game lasts long enough that I don't feel guilty about how easily I can kill survivors.
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Looks like what happened in my huntress game yesterday. I'm a garbage killer but because of altruism it was pretty easy to get a 4k (but I always let one go).
Leaving someone on a hook to finish an objective is fine. The results are the same as long as you pull them off before the next hook state.
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@Komi said:
You know you can run Bond or Empathy or one of the many perks that help with coop healing. OH, I have the perfect perk, BUILT TO LAST, now you get 2.75 medkit uses. What I'm getting at is please play with the several perks at your disposal before waving the white flag.
Can I has DLC money.
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@sulaiman said:
I noticed tunneling has increased once again, and almost all matches today had either tunneling or camping. Yeah, thats really boring. As killer, however, matches were even easier than before.
Impossible. Tunneling should have been reduced because Killers now have easier options on how they want to play the game. This is what I was told and the internet would never lie to me.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3403542#Comment_3403542
-"The definition of fair play is equal respect for the rules from both sides."
I don't agree with your definition; I think the one I gave is a much better fit.
The definition of fair play is when you use an ability and it's fun to be the user as well as having that ability used on you.
Imagine a fps shooter where you get a crazy ability for making a kill streak that allows you to kill more people and get even better killstreaks and better rewards. Would it be fun in a Call of Duty match if someone got 30 kills in a row so they could deploy a tactial nuke that deleted anyone in a 50m circle of a painted target? The answer is no.
It needs to be fun to play as Nurse but it needs to be fun when you play against Nurse. Assuming you have a good understanding of DBD this is true for the most part. But for the majority of DBD's lifetime there has been great consideration about what is fun to play as survivor without any consideration for how it feels to the killer.
No killer main ever said : I sure to love how DH made the game less fun for the killer and made chases longer for no reason.
I saw a discussion recently about the game Among Us and what constitutes fair play. It is possible to prove your innocence by performing certain tasks to other crew members. If you do this with 3-4 crew members then you can be certain that those players are not the imposter. If those players always stick together it becomes impossible for them to lose.
This creates an unfun scenario where you have no chance to win as the imposter when crew members can without a doubt identify other players who have a 0% chance of being the imposter.
If everyone plays this game in this manner then it becomes a pointless endeavor to play the game at all. If you are the imposter then you will lose so the game is not even worth playing.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3403174#Comment_3403174
The problem with this is that new players would get really frustrated because they already suck in chase. Good players would have no issue with collision.
If touching the killer knocked you over and stopped you then it would 100% stop bodyblocking. The killer could knock you over and then swing at the injured player and then turn around to hit you as you stand up. it would be high risk/high reward to try and block a killer from hitting your friend.
"If touching the killer knocked you over and stopped you then it would 100% stop bodyblocking. The killer could knock you over and then swing at the injured player and then turn around to hit you as you stand up. it would be high risk/high reward to try and block a killer from hitting your friend."
Wait, what is the high reward? Sounds like the killer got a down and a health state.
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I used Dead Hard maybe once since I started playing, didn't like it so I just run whatever build I feel like. I generally mix up the perks for each match, which occasionally has no exhaustion perks.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3403130#Comment_3403130
The person living in the building has a say in quality of life things. He/she doesn’t get yo decide how it’s built. It takes planning and thought to balance a game; it’s not done on spur of the moment, emotional reactions (which is most of this forum.)
Well there is a difference between building to sell and building to rent. Rentals still need to be maintained. Doesn't take a architect to point out people are going to leave if you don't do anything about the leaking pipes in the walls.
It's the owners full right to ignore those people but they can't point fingers when the building is condemned later on.
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@imakepeoplehateme said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3402771#Comment_3402771
Look,whenever i play solo queue and i lose the majority of my games,I look at the perfomance of my team and can agree that we should lose it.
No one is on gens,chases end in less then 30 seconds.Survivors don't know how to deal with a camping killer and just crouch near them etc.
Those players deserve to lose,and the game should never be balanced around such poor decision making and lack of skill.This isn't even limited to solo queue,to many SWF will all die to save that one guy.To many people follow around a killer for their sick falshlight save.
Shouldn't the matchmaking system be pairing equally bad killers with these survivors?
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The match can usually be decided within the first few minutes. It's the snowball nature of the game because you can permanently remove players from a match. This causes survivors to rush the objective in order to make sure they have a chance at escape later on. This also causes killers to rush their objective so they can get as many kills as they can to get the "win condition" of 3/4 kills.
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I think the whole hook mechanic is kinda lame from the game play standpoint. Thematically it's interesting but you just hang there and... don't play the game until someone else helps you. If someone doesn't help you then you die and have to queue for another game.
Sounds like a fun, well designed mechanic for a video game.
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@Dbdfan398 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401439#Comment_3401439
I feel you, I am feeling the same. problem is the game doesnt have any competition.
It has been killer incentive much more for me lately, but I just dont want to do it. I am sick of being the plaything for swfs.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401627#Comment_3401627
I agree with you, but for some reason I dont feel ( may be wrong ) killers tunnelled nearly as much in the past. Its pretty common now for me to be tunnelled at 5 gens now.
I just think that if killers didnt feel like theyd be down to 3 gens by the first down they wouldnt feel like - I NEED to get someone out of this game asap. I know I wouldnt - but thats just me ofcourse.
I think it's more of a learned behavior, a lot like when a youtuber or streamer find a very beneficial mechanic and a bunch of people start to mimic it. In this case it's over a longer period of time and the speeds of generators (which I will admit is pretty fast when left unchecked) increased (mostly due to perks) which pressured people into that behavior (ha).
However the cat is out of the bag, I don't see people stopping when tunneling is so beneficial. Even if/when generator speeds are fine statistically, that feeling of "unfairness" lingers. When playing survivor, if a team is doing well and a killer switches to tunnel mode if feels like a cheat code in a PvP game. As long as that option remains it's going to feel terrible.
Hilariously enough both tunneling and camping are most likely going to keep gen speeds the way they are because survivors need to feel like they can do something, anything, about it. So it's like a chicken and egg scenario.
Personally I would like a match to play out evenly spaced as possible. I dunno, sometime online game dev decisions just boggle the mind.
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@Dbdfan398 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401149#Comment_3401149
Well, as I said if gens werent flying I personally wouldnt feel the need to as much. Its not a mechanic that changed imo, its just how fast gens go now and how hard to control 4 survivors are. Maybe its MMR thats done it?
Back when I got serious about this game, I remember watching otz and dowsey to learn. The golden rule dowsey always said that stuck in my head was you want 1 person dead by 3 gens left to go. I would spread pressure, never tunnel and would usually get this done.
Now, I usually get my first down by that point.
I dont even know what to do with the game at this point, its in a horrible state as survivor and killer. I actually think this is the worst state the games ever been in.
I wish they could do what WOW does ( cant due to licences ) and offer older versions of the game. 2018-2019 was peak imo ( I have been playing on and off since launch ! Got much more into it during the silent hill chapter )
Theres nothing worse as killer than chasing your first survivor, going past gens and noticing 3 are about to pop and you dont even have a down. You will say leave that survivor and move to the next. Thanks to MMR and DH, most survivors I vs can loop.
Being able to tunnel is a result of the game's design, not a purposely built mechanic but a result of players looking at how the game is designed and finding shortcuts (which players will always do). As a game designer you generally have two options, fix the underlying causes or just roll with it. Most developers end up rolling with it because of the resources it would cost to fix the issue usually exceeds any potential profit gained, if any, in fixing the issue.
There are a lot of questionable mechanics in this game but it's pretty much at the point where if those mechanics were to be addressed, they might as well make a sequel.
What I generally disagree with is the idea that the general population would no longer take the path of least resistance should the alternative burden from other options be lessened when the fact that the path of least resistance would also benefit from the lower burden. I have never seen a general population of players not use a workaround that is easier to do then other methods, has more benefit to the player then other methods and essentially comes with no repercussions for using such a method.
The point of tunneling (from what has been expressed on this forum) is essentially making it easier for the killer to "win" when faced with situations where they would "lose". Having killers pinky promise that they won't use or lessen the amount of tunneling because other avenues have been opened up doesn't really mean much since the option for tunneling is still available to them and the reasoning for tunneling is still valid when you start to "lose". Particularly with Clowns who are terrible at pinky promises.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3401224#Comment_3401224
I didn’t really mean that it is that strong right now, but it would become stronger if 99ing gates was no longer possible. Which does not need to happen. It’s not meant to give the killer kills as much as it is meant to just ensure the game ends in a timely manner.
Honestly they should just have a timer until the match ends then.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400532#Comment_3400532
I think there should be Hook count and Gen's progression system. Certain Gen's progression fits to certain Hook count.
Which side is losing will be buffed, while the other side nerfed. The further the gap, the stronger the buff/nerf.
So in low MMR, killer has a huge lead (3-4 hooks to 1 Gen done, survivors will get buffed). In high MMR, survivors has a huge lead (3 Gens done to 1 hook, killers will get buffed)
I had the idea of the amount of survivors in game that would determain gen speeds so it would generally benefit killers to spread hooks instead of tunneling out one survivor. It would also help in situations where a survivor DC's or kills themselves. Early game should have a slower generator rate to encourage grouping up to progress generators, making it easier for the killer to scatter the survivors (naturally slowing down gen progression).
However anything that I think of requires a lot of developer time and money and since this game is seven years old already...
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@Dbdfan398 said:
Its simple for me. Gens are going too fast lately, I need to get it to 3v1 asap.
If I dont, 3 or 4 gens pop so fast its ridiculous. I think basekit corrupt would help a lot.
What's stopping you from tunneling even if you get basekit corrupt? Let's say gen speed is half of what it is today, what mechanic is going to prevent tunneling from occurring?
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@Deathstroke said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3400412#Comment_3400412
Im survivor main but play killer enough to see how survivor sided the game is once you face competent survivors.
How would you increase the survivability of survivors at the low end while decreasing the survivability of survivors at the high end?
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As long as the benefit to tunneling is so high, gen speeds can never go down to a reasonable level.
Incentivizing not tunneling doesn't work because it's always a reliable fallback when the killer starts to lose. Like the 3-gen strat.
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@RaSavage42 said:
Ask yourself.... just one question
Why should basekit progression be 1.2-2.2 and basekit regression be .25
When the game is 4V1 why give the 4 such an advantage over the 1 (when it comes to Gens)
Are you asking why an asymmetrical game has asymmetrical mechanics?
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@Meathammer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3398977#Comment_3398977
Yeah, but try doing that at high level lmao
If you could do that at high level the game would be fundamentally broken, lol.
It's pretty bad if you can do that at low mmr with players that are supposed to be at your skill level.
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At low mmr you can use a single yellow perk, no add-ons on a Billy without using a chainsaw and still get a 4k while purposely not trying.
Which is what I did last night, because I've never played Billy.
His chainsaw feels like running through pudding while someone yanks left on the mouse cable. Still didn't finish that BP mission...
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@Shroompy said:
You cant necessarily do this without completely ruining the identity of certain maps tho. Its basically impossible to make a killer like Billy have the same performance on Lery's and Wreckers Yard.
What needs to be done instead is have every killer have a certain realm pool. This way a killer like Billy would never have to worry about going to Lery's, RPD, etc. If a map offering is played, and the killer doesnt have that realm in their pool, the offering gets rejected.
This would make every killers performance become WAY more consistent, making statistics much more accurate and would also be a great change in terms of how it feels to play a certain killer.
That might suck for killers since if you favor a particular killer then you'll be playing a lot of the same map.
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I believe if they averaged the map size to a sweet spot and hand tailored each variation instead of using procedural generation, it would go a long way.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396739#Comment_3396739
No, the idea was that they were going to get rid of the gen regression perks, and the new meta would be about the slower healing speeds and the removal of extra health states via DH and Medkits replacing gen regression.
Survivors threw a fit, and they got their healing speed and their DH back, but the killer perks (all of them; every gen regression perk there ever was) remain nerfed.
It was wrong of me to call those nerfs "measly". A better word would have been "reasonable". It still would have been a hard change for killers that needed gen regression to get the time they need to secure kills against competent survivors, but killers had something to play for.
From what I saw most people found that the self healing nerfs were fine however making all healing slower would end up terrible (particularly healing from a dying state). I believe the med-kit nerfs (med-kits people complained about) are still nerfed. You wouldn't be able to keep the same slowdown on gens while keeping slowdown on healing, it would make snowballing way too easy.
I get going against high tier SWF's suck and I would personally be fine with removing the ability to group in the regular queue (you can SWF in custom if need be) but trying to balance this game on a rotation with number adjustments it going to be a constant nightmare. I've seen other games try this and it never ends up working because you are constantly adding new content which flips the table over.
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@hailxsatanxeveryxday said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3396687#Comment_3396687
Well, I haven't been (unless it's been otherwise convenient), because the PTB doesn't run on Linux, but, yes, I think it would be a good idea to do that once it hits live servers.
Look, maybe I'm madder about this than I should be. Like you said, I can always just tunnel people off of hook.
Or I could just play Nurse.
See? I still have plenty of options. I guess I'm just upset that survivors can cry on the forums for a week and get all of their measly nerfs halfway reverted, while killer perks get destroyed every time there's an update, and nothing is ever done about that. It just doesn't seem fair.
Maybe because it's not. Neither is Nurse. I'll learn to deal with it.
Regarding killer nerfs, isn't that because they want the kill rate to be a certain percent on average?
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Capping gen speeds would require fixing the other issues that come with it. What is the counter to tunneling for the survivor? Do gens fast enough to avoid a snowball. What is the counter to camping? Become disadvantaged in health/hook states or do gens to punish it. Why do you have a lot of balancing around gen speeds? Because people want both tunneling and camping to be a legitimate way to play the game.
You want caps? Then the snowball needs to go.
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@LuthirFontaine said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/371641/new-killer-meta
And this is different then what I normally face how?
Now there is an excuse, like every other patch.
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I don't go out of my way to be annoying to the opposite side. I can't really take this game seriously as the asymmetrical and RNG nature actively works against itself if it tries to be a competitive game.
The game works and feels well when it acts like it's inspiration, a horror movie. Not everyone is going to survive and the monster isn't going to kill everyone.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3394076#Comment_3394076
I stated you would need a huge game redesign doing this. Ultimately I don't see the devs going this route as changing the game massively can just backfire. Seriously look at the response to the devs attempting to make a huge sweeping change to healing.
People will just need to accept that tunneling and camping are just valid ways to play.
I would agree they probably wouldn't and even shouldn't do massive gameplay changes at this stage (the age of the game and the associated costs). The best they can do without upsetting people is bandaid changes.
If they want to permanently fix this issue they would have to redesign the game (sequel or a new IP), learn from their mistakes regarding game design throughout the lifespan of DBD and make a new game.
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@Crowman said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3393974#Comment_3393974
I think the idea is to make it so that winning with 12 hooks is more common than winning with less than 12 hooks. Not to make it so every game is a win.
The only way you can realistically make 12 hooking for the 4K a reality is by first making each individual hook a killer earns grant some kind of bonus that stacks. You would also need to make sure the bonus is only awarded for spreading out hooks instead of just focusing out the first survivor. It would require a pretty huge game redesign as just adding a bonus to spreading out hooks itself could make killers too strong.
That's basically a carrot and stick way of balancing but without the stick. The rewards would have to be substantial to make it more appealing then tunneling a character out of the game early for a large advantage. This also doesn't do much for the gen speeds on the survivors side as a killer would be more liking to fall back on tunneling since it's low effort, high reward once they see three gens pop.
This change would be beneficial to players who already want to do 12 hooks but not to players who want to win as soon as possible. In my opinion.
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What about more reduction of progress for a generator being worked on solo but a further increased progress with multiple players. That way you have survivors grouped up more so that it's easier for killers to disrupt.
However in order to lower the benefit of tunneling and help with situations of afk or DC'd survivors, all survivors get a small bonus generator progress for each survivor dead (or perhaps even in the dying state) depending on the amount of generators remaining. So if you do tunnel a survivor out, the game doesn't drastically swing in the killers favor.
Ultimately if they do make a DBD2, they could make the entire match a 12-15min EGC. One hook kills the survivor but the survivor respawns at a random location away from the killer, taking a chunk of time out from the ECG.
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I'm all for making gen progression much more linear provided that killer snowball potential is heavily reduced. Then you get even, consistent match play times for everyone.
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I honestly think it's an issue with the base mechanics steering the playstyle of players in a negative direction.
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Would it be better if no perks or items on both sides effected gen speeds or healing speeds and reworked to do something else? Would that solve most of the issues people are having with the speed of matches?
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It's just bad design. One of the main things about designing for multiplayer games is planning how your players will use or abuse a mechanic.
This isn't the fault of the players at all, it all comes down to design. Players will always try to game the system.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3045681#Comment_3045681
Oh look, even you people can accidentally stumble onto the correct answer sometimes. Amazing, I’m so proud of you. Good job! You’re right. We should be inclusive of all minorities.
You are pretty vitriolic to someone just asking questions. Pretty neutral questions too.
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@Tr1nity said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3045634#Comment_3045634
There's not like a quota as to how many you need to do lmao
"Yo boss man we need 12 more LGBT by the end of this week or we're gonna get fired" is not something you're ever gonna hear.
So then the plan for future content to make everyone feel like the have representation would be to add every identity, correct?
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3045642#Comment_3045642
Ah yes, because in the entire LGBTQIA+ community, focusing on exclusively the G is a wonderful idea.
No. Not at all.
There's a wide range of identities that BHVR could choose to represent. There isn't an end-point, and BHVR can add as many as they see fit. However as a community who play the game, we are entitled to ask for representation of our own identities or similar.
When one group says they are underrepresented and that a different group is over represented, wouldn't that indicate they have a rough idea on the appropriate amount of representation they would like? Wouldn't it be easier for the developers to satisfy that need if they knew the data before hand?
And if G would be too over represented with two characters then how many characters should it be for each of the identities? Should all identities be included or only the "main ones"?
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3045634#Comment_3045634
more than a singular gay man.
So we'll just add one more gay man then.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3045608#Comment_3045608
over-representation in media is only fair when the majority get to be over-represented, don't you know? can't have minorities be represented with more than a single character each- hell, just shove them all into one and get it over and done with- because that would be far too upsetting! can't have the majority see more than a single minority on-screen at any one time, after all.
(obligatory /s)
Well, what would the appropriate amount of representation look like?