crogers271
crogers271
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Things that have already been covered
1: Simplifies the code.
2: Allows the potential for new perks.
I'll add two other likely reasons
1: It also fits the rest of the game better. Survivors do everything else via skill checks. It's just strange that there is one and only one gameplay element that could be not skill check based.
2: Easier to recognize how it impacts the game. The ping pong skill checks are easily definable - great, good, or failure on the check, here's how frequently a survivor can make them, mashing buttons doesn't have that ability.
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It depends what type of game you want. An SWF can break two close hooks pretty easily (presuming it's not in the basement), very difficult for soloQ to do it. There's a good chance the soloQ's see that you have the hooks camped and either
A) just sacrifice themselves so they can get to another game
B) go into hide mode
B can lead to you spending quite a bit of time trying to track the survivors down. A feels really anti-climatic.
Or you can leave the hooks and give them a chance, but then you also have a game to play.
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Game balance can mean 2 things: whether every game should be balanced or whether across a lot of games it should be balanced.
The first one I think is no. The has a lot of RNG and I think that makes it interesting. Sure, any particular map/setup might be killer/survivor sided, but I think the variability keeps it interesting.
I think it should be balanced long term, ie if you are an average player across 100 games you should have equal wins and losses.
As for looping, while the game is well outside the devs original design, I don't think it is a major factor in balance at this point. The devs are well aware and have transitioned to it with game design. The balance issue comes from all the variability in the game - a ton of perks, very different killers, and that survivors can be uncoordinated or on constant coms. On top of that the games add-ons really factor into how a game plays - a killer with two iri add-ons is considerably stronger than one without - 4 survivors running spare part will finish gens a lot quicker than 4 without.
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If I could rebuild DBD, I'd throw out the blood web as it is currently constructed. Instead players earn blood to level, except at each level they get 1 choice (let's say from 4 options). Maybe the option you don't take appears the next level, maybe it doesn't appear for a long time, makes the choices have actual weight. Throw away most offerings, levels are based on perks, items, and addons. Each level takes increasing amounts of bloodpoints so that having a character with 'everything' takes a fair bit of play
I'd also throw out the idea of addons and items having a number that is owned. This is currently kind of irrelevant anyway with players having a mountain of gear. If BHVR wanted to try and 'force' players to use different builds I'd do the following, if you fail to escape the gear you brought is on cooldown for a couple of games before it can be used again.
For both survivors and killers I'd weaken the stronger addons and increase the power of the weaker (and/or treat them like perks with their own levels). Killers would be expected to use addons and various builds
In the event that balancing the powers was impossible, I'd create a limit a on what the killer could bring. Like they could have three brown addons or one iri. Potentially this could also be a build system, where a killer has 5 'points' to spend on their build, the strongest addons count for 5, while weak one are 1 point, and a killer can have any combination they can make with those points. Would create a lot more potential for variety in builds without the feeling that bringing high level adds is cheating.
For survivors, I'd either remove the ability to bring items to a game (you have to find them) or each survivor gets one at random. Each survivor would be able to have a different 'build' for how each item worked when they were holding it. This would prevent the overuse by SWF of all med kits/toolkit builds, stop the use of powerful addons, and make finding items more relevant.
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I like that you laid out a bunch of ideas so I thought I'd respond to some of them.
internal player profile
We kind of have most of this with prestige levels (though not always). I feel that some of these ideas would just lead to lobby dodging.
Toxicity counter
The problem with this idea is that a voting system is another tool for players to be toxic about. While I'd like a more clear kudos system (which you suggest later), allowing people to vote down others is an easily manipulated tool for more BM. This could be SWF groups just voting down everyone to be trolls, or people using it to rag on a survivor who just isn't that good, or against a killer who crushed the team or engaged in tactics that BHVR is okay with but the community is not.
Character Differences
While I don't disagree, we're now in such a different game territory that I suspect things would have to be totally rebuilt.
Lore mini-games:
Could be cool, but also not sure if it would be worth the development time.
Character control: all characters can basically sneak, crouch, crawl, jump etc.
Maybe I'm missing something, but other than crawl, don't we have this?
Emote Wheel:
Yes.
Apart from that, the killer can find the survivors more easily and the communication between killers and survivors could also be improved.
No, while I know some players have lots of trouble locating survivors, it isn't that difficult, killers have perks to make it easier, and hiding is a critical component for survivors.
More lenses
I think conceptually every player likes the idea of their being more possibilities within the game, but it's easier said then done. As it is, most survivors consider going for chests a complete waste of time. Would additional objectives be worth it? Either the objectives are really critical to the players and thus benefit the killers or they are of minor benefit and thus a distraction from doing gens.
A second issue is let's say survivors have multiple routes to escape. This would greatly strengthen SWF who could come in with a plan on what they want to do, vs soloQ who would have to figure it out while it goes.
That said, I'll be happy to take a stab at how I would do it. Change the game from 8 gens to 6 and require only 3 to be done. Slow down survivor progress to about 75% of what it is. Remove chests and bringing items from the game. Replace chests with various areas - tool sheds, med stations, etc. Going to the various bonus areas substantially increases the speed of 'something' (healing, repairing, running, etc). This would give a few more options for player strategy (on both sides) as well as make it harder to lock players into a 3 gen.
Torturing instead of hanging:
Okay, being two points after this you suggest a censored mode I think is evidence it is a bad idea. DBD isn't really a 'gore' horror, it's a jump out of the shadows and tense horror game.
That said, I think having various types of 'hooks' is not a bad idea. Say instead of having 3 'lives' survivors have 6. A hook takes 2 and works like normal, while a 'jail' only takes 1 but requires a lot longer to free a survivor, a 'rack' takes 1 but gives them a permanent penalty to do gens, while the 'void' takes 3 but instead of trapping them on a hook warps them to a different part of the map and they can keep playing.
Again, tons of balance issues with it as a concept, but it would definitely have more variety.
Better animations:
Not opposed, but these are the types of changes that would be cool at first, and within a week no one would even notice them.
Blood Points:
I mean, yeah, I'd like it, but for business reasons I understand why that would never happen.
Flashlights only partially blind the killer.
They don't make a lot of sense, but they're a pretty important part of the game. If they couldn't fully blind the killer they'd be useless barring some completely new power.
Maps are determined by a roulette where everyone has three darts to throw.
I'd rather see the offering system removed and just go random. I think the idea is overly complex compared to just letting players set their map preferences.
The game only starts after one minute. In this minute, the trapper has time to plan his traps, survivors can consult via in-game chat who does what, when and where.
No, I think the idea of having to make quick decisions from the beginning is both more interesting and a better use of everyone's time. Deathgarden had a slow start and it was mostly just annoying.
The killer has no theme melody and no terror radius, but the survivors have a heartbeat that increases with stress and remains permanent.Stress levels drop when Bill smokes,
The terror radius is pretty critical for survivors to have a chance. It feels like you are trying to do the opposite.
I don't have a problem with stress levels, but it would depend on how they actually impact the game. Let's say stress made it harder to hit skill checks - this would make it devastating for newer players and inconsequential for experienced survivors.
The obsession target changes every 10 minutes. Only the obsessed target and the killer know who is obsessed. The obsession target and the killer can see each other every few minutes. The possessed's goal is to either get rid of the possession by betraying and sacrificing another survivor, transferring their possession to them, or confronting the killer.
That last sentence, oh boy, the game already has enough elements to not make survivors work together. The last thing we need is worry that their is a traitor on the survivor side as well.
When one dies, one is not only killed by the entity or killer, but experiences a scene of the entity confronting the character with his mistakes in the game.
Like a highlights package? Not a bad idea, but if I'm going to stick around I'd rather spectate what is happening.
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If you are having really long que times it sounds like the game is struggling to find players to match you with and then dumping you into any game it can find. The longer you are in a que the broader the spectrum gets. I don't know what region of the world you are in, but in mine (US West) it's a big surprise if survivor ques are anything other than instant and killers only take a couple minutes at most.
As someone who started back in August, I sympathize and understand that the game is brutal for new players.
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It's also possible BHVR and the owner's of Leatherface IP are in negotiations so no one can say for certain what will happen.
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Basically what you are suggesting is equivalent to turning off 2/3rds of the perks every season. You say slightly different but your examples are pretty significantly different.
Even beyond that there are a couple of problems
1: Even with different perks every season all that would change is new metas would emerge each season. It would likely at most take a week to form.
2: While BHVR gets a lot of grief, sometimes deserved, balancing a game like this is legitimately very hard. Creating variations of perks which are randomly drawn would would significantly increase the difficulty of doing this.
3: You create the problem that the game would swing balance wise between survivors and killers based on how the perks come out.
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A big part of the problem is there is only so many things that can actually be done in a game like this. To shake up the meta both sides need balanced to make the strongest perks weaker and the weaker perks stronger.
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Yeah, I wish 3 gens didn't come up as well. I hate blaming killers for playstyles that shouldn't even be an option. It also feels really annoying when playing killer - like there is a clear place from the start of the map that I should defend if I want to keep the survivors from getting out, but it creates a really unfair match if I do.
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Fast forward 5 games in a row of this happening, I switch to my semi-sweaty Blight setup and I play very sweaty. Fast forward 5 more games, all 4k. All of which, people complainWhat server/time of day do people use the end game chat this much? Like I rarely even see a 'gg' from anyone at the end, much less anything more than that.
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I definitely feel you on the 'okay, I'll take this game seriously, oh no, I clubbed to death baby seals'. I don't have problems with soloQ unorganized teams or SWF, I just wish I knew what I was getting into from the start of the match.
I think the thing that stands out for me is your difficulty locating survivors (which you seem to point out later in this thread). If you're having to run perks to help find them I see how it can be a problem. I honestly have no idea how you get better at that.
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So I skipped around the video, but his big error is comparing it to Call of Duty. He says you can get all of Call of Duty for $70, while DBD would cost $200.
The problem is that Call of Duty and a lot of other games have relatively short life cycles. They push you to buy the 'new' game that is constantly coming out. Since DbD came out there have been 10 Call of Duty games. So if you were playing the latest Call of Duty game you would have spent two to four times what you would have on DBD.
BHVR has remained committed to the base game. They've continued to update it and they need a revenue stream. The "DLC" gives new content and options, sometimes a balance issue they are more powerful, but there are plenty of builds available to relatively new players.
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@ShamelessPigMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303387#Comment_3303387
NOED is a perk and the shrinkage of the map won't necessarily happen without something like a three-gen. I was thinking about a built-in base game mechanic to salvage a bit of a win if you're lucky enough to come across something like the hatch.
@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303387#Comment_3303387
What has a perk to do with a inbuild game mechanic? Or are you proposing that survivors should require a perk to make the hatch spawn?
The map shrinks down, even if it is not a 3-gen you still have a smaller map, and you definitely do when you get to the doors. Much like how the hatch is random and can spawn right by the killer or survivor, the door setup can be either survivor or killer sided.
And NOED is obviously a perk, but survivors also have perks that let them seek out the hatch if they want to play that way. You don't need NOED to get someone when it is down to the doors, but it really makes it much easier.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303385#Comment_3303385
See and I disagree if you've been playing the match for lets say 5 minutes and you have 1 hook 3 downs total and 4 gens done with nothing to boost your endgame, your chances of getting one kill are extremely low.
Because even if you get a down and a hook on the 1 survivor you already hooked, very few killers are actually gonna be able to hold that hook from the 3 other survivors or be able to get a down and hook with all 4 running out and bodyblocking for each other, 90% of the time in that situation the killer is playing for nothing, and in the 10% of the time they actually get a kill, they are still gonna get a depip anyways, so why would I even play for the one kill and then get crapped on with gg ez, nice tunnel, way to camp messages, no thank you let me concede and bop out power the gates and let the survuvors get out.
At least as survivor all you have to do is hide and survive to be the last and you have at the very least a 50/50 chance at hatch, and then another 50/50 that you can get the door if hatch is closed. They actually still have a chance in a losing game. Plus survivors already have the option to yeet themselves on hook and get out anyways.
Also in terms of value a survivor escape is worth 7k BP, 2-3 bloodweb nodes, likely 2. What dies the killer get for all that crap just to get 1 kill, 2k BP, just enough to get 1 brown add on, oh yeah sign me up for that.
See and I disagree if you've been playing the match for lets say 5 minutes and you have 1 hook 3 downs total and 4 gens done with nothing to boost your endgame, your chances of getting one kill are extremely low.I've seen this quite a few times as both survivor and killer. Not just a kill, but I've seen and been the killer when the game has totally turned around at 4 gens done. As extreme as a single hook? No, but I can recall games where it happened with two only 2 hooks at that point.
Also in terms of value a survivor escape is worth 7k BP, 2-3 bloodweb nodes, likely 2. What dies the killer get for all that crap just to get 1 kill, 2k BP, just enough to get 1 brown add on, oh yeah sign me up for that.I don't know what the BP or pip math ever is. Escape or not is the only relevant part, but I understand others play the game differently. Thus that 1k feels a lot more than 0k and a sizable thing to play for.
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The ability doesn't really sound like a time travel killer other than the window hoping, more like an area trapper. Which is probably for the best because I doubt the engine can actually handle anything like that. Which is a pity because I'm totally down for the out of place Prince of Persia crossover.
Without getting too into the balance issues - the general idea sounds like one that experienced players would crush relatively easily. They'd pretty quickly learn the tells of whether they were in an area or not and whether it was worth disabling or avoiding. Unlike the Trapper's ability which can be a mind game, given this is a radius effect it would be easy to find the pole based upon when you hit the radius outer edge.
I like the idea of killer having an ability that lasts until a survivor dies as a balance issue, but that's not really how killer's are designed so it would be a pretty big change.
I'd also like a new killer with the Demogorgon ability to set up their own teleport areas for those who don't have him.
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Isn't this what they already have? The map shrinks. They killer can get stomped pretty hard, but turn things around when the map shrinks or at the exit gates.
Also, NOED.
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@kingcarl2012 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3303194#Comment_3303194
I'm sorry but did you even read what you wrote, lol. You can't be for it on one side and against it for the other when the same reasons you say can be applied to both sides.
On survivor side if we're down to 2 and there are multiple gens left, yeah, I'm not really going to stress out. If there was a surrender option I'd take it automatically.As killer, you've never truly lost until the very, very end. Even if the survivors are running circles around you, you can still get one.When you take EGC into consideration these are basically the same situation. Except your okay with it for the survivor while you expect the killer to sit there and wait patiently until the survivors decide to let the match end.
Or in games where as survivor we're facing a killer so above the team in level not only can we not complete a gen, we can barely get one started.Take a look at my example above, this can easily happen to a killer as well.
There is also another situation that is exclusive to killer, because 1 bad survivor can be carried to victory by the rest of the team, but the killer is alone with nothing to help them if they losing.
If the survivors have the skill advantage the killer doesnt have the benefit of teammates bailing them out or a 50/50 mechanic at the end of the game, not to mention the psychological stress factor of hitting a breaking point where each screw up creates more screw ups until you break a controller, keyboard, moniter, mouse, hand, wall, etc. If anything having a concede option is more important as a killer, especially as many survivors like to draw things out as long as possible when a killer tries to give up.
I'm sorry but did you even read what you wrote, lol.I'd like it, but I understand there are complications that would make implementing such a system very difficult.
not to mention the psychological stress factor of hitting a breaking point where each screw up creates more screw ups until you break a controller, keyboard, moniter, mouse, hand, wall, etc. If anything having a concede option is more important as a killer, especially as many survivors like to draw things out as long as possible when a killer tries to give up.Well this goes to the psychology of the game. I don't get how people find the killer roll stressful, though I know some do. I've played against plenty of survivors who have outmatched me, even the bully squads not trying to do gens, and I've never felt helpless. Even if you know you aren't going to win, there is always the chance to get one (until the very, very end).
Survivor though, frequently there is a feeling of this game is pointless, let's get to the next one.
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I generally would like a concession option. On survivor side if we're down to 2 and there are multiple gens left, yeah, I'm not really going to stress out. If there was a surrender option I'd take it automatically.
Or in games where as survivor we're facing a killer so above the team in level not only can we not complete a gen, we can barely get one started.
There are a couple of problems however.
As killer, you've never truly lost until the very, very end. Even if the survivors are running circles around you, you can still get one.
For survivors it is also partially true as there is always a chance that a survivor can get hatch to get a 'tie' on their part. DBD still holds to the idea (though I disagree with it), that the survivors are not teammates. So bailing out on a game with 2 survivors left gives that remaining survivor more of a chance.
I guess I'd also compare it to resignations in chess. It is considered polite to resign around the middle of the match if you've been significantly outplayed (to save everyone's time), but rude to do so at the end just to deny the inevitable.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301174#Comment_3301174
Good ideas don't come free.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301182#Comment_3301182
Look at the survivor objective. You work a gen to half way and it gets reset to 0% so now you have nothing. If I hook one survivor three times I kill a survivor. If I hook three survivors one time I get nothing. As a base kit change hooking three survivors one time needs to be better than 3x hooking one person.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301161#Comment_3301161
Tunneling is not embarassing. It's shaming the killer for playing the most efficient way possible as a response to survivors doing the same thing. The second a killer can turn generators off so that they can be undone then it might make sense to not tunnel. But that's not how it works.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301066#Comment_3301066
It's easy to tell who plays killer and who does not. Should survivors work a generator to 33% and then get all gens to 33% before they get a single gen to 66%? No. Why should killers play in an inefficient manner just because it hurts survivor feelings? It hurts the killers feelings if they get gen rushed and they had 2 hooks.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3301120#Comment_3301120
Survivors are unreasonable if they expect a killer to not tunnel when they want to tunnel generators.
I will agree not to tunnel if survivors do gens inefficiently. They must work all generator to 33% and once all 7 gens are at 33% they may get one generator to 66% progress. If any gen falls below 33% then they have to stop go back and get all the gens back to 33% progress.
But since nobody ever plays like that except noobs the devs don't balance how quickly it takes efficient players to finish the primary objective.
Good ideas don't come free.You know I was beginning to regret reading this thread, but this line made it all worth it. I love the idea that you've spent essays here arguing about the game, but you have some other idea that is so spectacular that it can't be shared given its value and you'll just sit on in case you somehow end up in video game development. Hilarious. Good read.
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There's really nothing you can do to make the 1v1 scenario good. The game is based around an overpowered killer against weaker survivors, but they have a team. Current hatch is at least quick.
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@kisfenkin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299154#Comment_3299154
Exactly how does a survivor work with the killer, then? Nobody has answered that without saying exactly that 'they lead the killer to the other survivors'... What's the difference? If a survivor running bond gets chased and leads the killer directly to another survivor over and over again, how is that not the very specific thing? What exactly is the very specific thing because not even you said what it was.
At the moment the number of people that are playing this outrageous way is so much, that many of us don't want to play survivor at all. It is the wrong move to support these bad actions and could you please bring that up with the team. We have to deal with hackers and gamebreaking bugs every other match, we shouldn't also have to fight our teammates.
I believe, though am not 100% certain, it's against rules to lead a killer to a survivor to try and get a mercy or other thing from the killer. If I was to use the wave emote to signal a killer, then lead them to a hiding survivor, with the killer following me making no effort to attack, that's considered working together. If I'm being chased by a killer trying to hit me and I decide, whether rightly or wrongly, that my best chance is to lead them to another survivor they might want to target, it's fine within the rules.
IMO I wish BHVR did more to consider survivor's a team, such as rewards for escapes as a team, etc. However, they don't and it would be hard to enforce with certainty anyway.
Earlier you said that killers/survivors can't read each other's minds, but that's the standard. It has to be absolutely clear that the killer had no intention of killing one of the survivors and that survivor helped the killer find other targets.
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I'll usually check out the video after the match. Can be really neat to see the game from a different perspective.
As killer seeing a bunch of TTV means its probably a SWF and so I have to be more aggressive in my game play.
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With players on a more clear playing field killers can be rebalanced and made stronger if necessary. That has been the issue with balancing, because there is such a difference between potential skill levels of SWF and soloQ DBD is a very hard game to balance. Narrow those down and then we can talk balance issues (though SWF will still have substantial advantages).
It might resort in more trolling, but I doubt it. It's not like trolls need evidence to be trolls.
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People want to win.
The counter example for this is with two survivors left when one of the survivors will get into a chase, but the killer will quickly break off to gen patrol/regress. Survivors retreat and heal. Both sides are acting in the way that maximizes their chance to win: killer knows as long as he doesn't leave the gens, can't lose, and survivors know if they approach the gen with the killer present they'll lose.
As survivor I generally go and throw myself at the killer, as killer I start exploring the map trying to hunt them down. Neither side is what I would do if winning was the only factor, but generally when it is down to 2 survivors in that situation I consider that the killer has already won.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3299196#Comment_3299196
Sadly this is my feeling as well.
Icons like those should have been done years ago and they will probably help. But it will not change the fact that some players just dont do anything.
I have seen games were two Survivors were on a Gen, the Obsession got chased (Claws moving AND just got injured) and still none of the two got me before I reached second Stage. Despite all Information available.
And I expect that I will see a lot of time that Survivors dont do anything or waste their time doing Chests or stuff like that.
So we will see how helpful it will be. But it is a step in the right direction, maybe it makes SoloQ bearable.
I mean, at least they were on gens. They could have been hiding in lockers.
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1 - Addons drive me crazy and I'm surprised they don't upset more players. In addition to being a lot more things for a new player to learn, they basically let the killer (and to some degree survivors) set the difficulty level of the game.
3 - As survivor a big thing is learning the killers which is quite a cliff. Example: huntress is running in unpredictable patterns and looking for solid walls. Make it so the killer has to come after you for a melee hit, then try to get a pallet. It's a mind game, just like it might be against say a Wesker, but a different one.
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It's generally an accident, but also inevitable if on a good loop. If I manage to run the killer over a good portion of the map then likely I'm going to come across someone on a gen.
It's also not bad strategy in many occasions. If the chased is on death hook or needing to recharge dead hard it can be good to change targets. If a team is coordinated they can also really keep the killer from progressing by continually healing those not in a chase.
Example:
Survivor A found - chase - hit - chase - dead hard - chase - survivor B protection
Survivor B chase - dead hard - chase - survivor C protection
etc. with the people not in chases healing up.
And even if done foolishly, it's not against the rules. Working with the killer implies coordination - killer not hitting a survivor, survivor signaling the killer, prior team up, etc. While I wish the game had more of a team focus, BHVR has been pretty clear that if people don't want to work with the team, they don't have to. There are a few things survivors can't do (i.e. body block), but trying to shake a killer off via heading toward another survivor is definitely within the rules.
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@RaSavage42 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295012#Comment_3295012
It's cause it happens...
If Killers identify a 3 Gen... they should be able to defend it... Killers don't have pressure right as the match starts
If "pretty much everyone" considers it bad then why does it continue to happen??? It's the same thing as waiting till the last second to leave the match... it's those people whom are holding up Queue times
Finishing Gens as fast ass possible is the Survivors primary objective.... Killing all 4 Survivors as fast as possible is the Killer's primary objective... everything else is just a secondary objective
But with the game the way it is... Killers have to adapt (and so do Survivors)
If "pretty much everyone" considers it bad then why does it continue to happen??? It's the same thing as waiting till the last second to leave the match... it's those people whom are holding up Queue timesI see this (TB) relatively rarely. Definitely not every match.
As for waiting around the exit gates: sometimes this is to check to see if another survivor needs help, or waiting for an injured survivor to heal to try and get a pip.
Also, it's an element that doesn't impact the game. If developers disabled repeated crouching it wouldn't impact win/loss rates.
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@WeakestNurseMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295473#Comment_3295473
But by that logic I can flip this around and say that you choosing a situation like a killer with the best gen control perks vs an uncoordinated solo queue team is a strawman, there's obvious nuance here.
Take a group of video game players who have never played DBD, have them do the tutorials, and then have them play the game - killer will win the majority of matches. Potentially vast majority.
Give a player ten hours on each side, they'll probably have a pretty good idea of killer strategy, as survivor there will still be a lot of guess work.
Or look at the fact that there are lots of people on this forum and elsewhere who talk about playing "nice" as the killer so the game is competitive.
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@WeakestNurseMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3295375#Comment_3295375
You're grossly oversimplifying here, you're just not gonna win with Sadako against a good SWF on Badham with strong perks and items, doesn't matter what perks or add-ons you bring.
If to make your example you have to pick one of the weaker killers and place them against the strongest possible opponents, then yeah, generally killers have an easier time than survivors. It's not true 100% of the time, but generally speaking it is.
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What I think is happening: very recently the forums migrated from forums.deadbydaylight to forums.bhvr - google is still returning sites from the old forum, however it doesn't exist anymore, and just auto-forwards to the main page of this forum.
Over time that process will fix itself as the old site drops out of the search pattern, in the short term for you: focus on links that take you to reddit? Or just go ahead and type up a post with 'new player' and your questions. People argue over balance on this forum, but are pretty helpful when it comes to just information.
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A killer should definitely view a game where the survivor gets the hatch as a win. To me a better questions is whether you prevent the survivors from finishing the gens or not.
To me it really depends a lot on what I bring to the game vs the opponents. If I hit a squad with purple items that throws up multiple CoH and is doing flashlight saves: if I get one, a win. If I hit a team that didn't bring any gear and I'm running high level addons, I better get them before the last gen is done.
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@LGTV said:
Shockingly i have a couple of friends who i like to play with. My steam profile is always aviable, people can see it and i am not ashamed of it. But why do people complain that 3 other survivors in my lobby are in my friends list? I mean there is nothing wrong about playing with friends.
My favorite matches as killer have been against SWF when it is obvious to me they are a team. Generally as killer I feel like I have to play down a couple gears and playing a coordinated team really means I have to bring my A game.
The problem is that there aren't many ways to tell until well into a match. Like I'll have played two matches where I'm intentionally avoiding the weakest survivor to make the match competitive, and suddenly I hit a team that it is popping gens while I'm still in my first chase. SWF is basically a different game than soloQ for the killer without being told about the change.
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I also think you have a point, but other games you reference are not asymmetrical. 4 man SWF and expert nurses are outliers the game isn't built around. In other games everyone has access to the same things, if there is a balance issue (ie an overpowered ability) everyone can access it equally.
I do think the massive win streaks are a problem, but I don't think the matchmaking is the primary culprit. While DBD is a popular game, there are only so many players available to match (consider that the majority of the time you are in DBD you are probably in a match). Add in lobby dodgers and it becomes an even bigger issue.
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@RaSavage42 said:
So Camping is a no go.... and 3 Genning is also a no go
But Gen rushing and T-Bagging at the exit gates are ok???
Anyway Killer seeing a 3 Gen and not taking advantage of it is what?
Yes I get it having that Killer not do anything outside the 3 Gen can be an issue... Call Of Brine only gives 200% Gen regression for 60 seconds and a notification on a skillcheck... Eruption is only useful once a Survivor goes down... Overcharge has the skillcheck as soon as the Survivor touches a Gen and increases the Gen regression in 30 seconds... All of these perks have synergy so finding a couple of solutions for it can go a long way...
I did it once as Pig I forgot my build but it was after I prestiged her (This was like a year or so ago)
But Gen rushing and T-Bagging at the exit gates are ok???Why do we always get the 'T-Bagging okay' argument? Pretty much everyone considers it bad manners at the exit gate. And while it's rude, it's not impacting the game like camping/3 genning/gen rushing.
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As many people have mentioned, killers can identify a 3 gen from the start. This can create an infinite loop: survivors rush in, get hit, retreat to heal, killer kicks gens, heal. Sure it's breakable by a team with the right setup and/or SWF, but can be impossible for a soloQ.
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1: SoloQ information. If it is something SWF could communicate with just a couple words ("I'm on a gen") then it should be displayed next to the character portrait. Probably a radial dial as well with a 15 second limit per message + easy mute option.
2: Rework addons. Games should not be decided by who brings the best stuff. By rework I mean basically trash the current system, especially for killers. Replace it to a system more like perks - get rid of the idea that addons will be lost, iridescent addons should not have unique effects, but be slightly stronger versions of lower tiers. This way you go in knowing that a killer will have two mods, the question is which two, instead of trying to guess at how sweaty they are. For survivors, nerf the iri addons.
3: Create in game rewards/penalties for killer camping/tunneling (ie not blood points). If a survivor's hook count exceeds the rest of the team, that survivor gets a permanent haste effect. If killer camps a hook too long killer aura gets shown and survivor gets hit with reassurance. In return give the killer benefits beyond just blood points for spreading out the hits: a weaker no hex version of devour hope probably.
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Basically: the best strategies to win this game are boring. Instead of asking players not to play that way on both sides, make those strategies less effective.
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US West - five to ten minutes waiting as killer, instant survivor gameplay. I do wrack up a ton of BP as killer so not missing the points there.
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@Lost_Boy said:
I wonder what the actual true escape to kill ratio is for solo queue?
If you were to take out SWF data and add in DC's as part of the kill data (because 1 DC basically means a 3-4k in most cases), I would put money on that the kill rate is like way up at 80-85% quite easily.
Solo queue really is in a sorry state at the moment. I would class myself as a killer main that likes to dabble in solo queue from time to time and I honestly feel sorry for anyone that only plays survivor in solo queue. I'm honestly not surprised that the survivor population has significantly decreased.
The other thing that contributes to the "real" kill ratio is mercy escapes. If I play 10 games, escape in 2, am let go in 2, and killed in the other 6, it feels like I won twice, but the system reads an escape rate of 40%.
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294038#Comment_3294038
Yeah but hold a button doing a gen isnt difficult nor are the base "skill checks" and if you're on about chases the killer has exactly the same process of learning will this power work here, will they mindgame, drop the pallet etc.
Both sides have to learn the chase, while one is following both have to learn tiles and loops and most loops are generic ones you can see over meaning all you have to do is run around which once again isnt hard.
If you're then talking about killers mindgame, moon walking etc. Then the survivor should also be aware of that, if they're aren't they're a lower level than the killer and therefore the killer should win if it based of skill as the killer has more knowledge than that particular survivor.
And also at the higher level alot of the killers fall into 50/50 chance mindgame or the survivor messing up, making it easier for the survivors will make that even worse
First ten games or so I played as survivor I probably missed 1 out 10 skill checks, maybe more. Even for a while after that it was not an unusual occurrence. Eventually they become just a minor distraction, but they are hindrance and something that has to be learned.
Killers learning chases is much easier, it corresponds to lot of other video games. Run, hit, repeat. Sure you get better at it as you play, but unless you are new to video games it is extremely basic. Survivors are much more unique.
Now I actually think this is a good thing. Killers should be straightforward, otherwise you gets Nurses who are almost impossible to play against at high levels and the easiest opponent at low levels. But let's be honest about the game: survivors have to make choices without having information about the map or what their teammates are doing, killers have to play a strategy management game.
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@EntitySpawn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3294010#Comment_3294010
1. Well you can, I'm not saying me personally go round telling them but more in general not everything should be changed to suit them.
2. Survivor is only hard due to bad matchmaking and people giving up, other than that it's the easier role as theres 4 of you. You can physically go on your phone and still do gens and certain maps give you the advantage ove most killers.
3. So killers easier because then get gen aura? Killers also have to learn their own power, as well as perks/maps like survivor and also tracking, micro manage the 4v1.
If you're having really easy games as killer you or the survivors are being mismatched no different to easy survivor games. There are many people out there who have very hard games as killer, everyone's experience is different.
Still shouldn't balance for bad players, survivor or killer. Balance for people that actually understand the game is my point
Easy has two definitions: who has the easier chance to win and who has a harder role to learn. That's why people are talking about skill caps and floors. Your post is about why can't survivors just get better, which means we need to get into how hard it is too learn.
Killer has a much easier role to learn. It takes much longer to become an okay survivor than it does to become an okay killer. A really quick tutorial is all you need to play killer.
Or to put another way, I have rarely gone against a killer I thought was actively bad. Sometimes at the end of a game I've even seen that the killer is pretty clearly a new player and they did okay. I've hit a lot of survivors who were at a complete loss and made horrific strategy decisions (and I'm not even discussing intentional suicides).
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@EntitySpawn said:
I always see "most survivors arent that good" used for reasons of so many balance changes in the game and I dont get it.
Sure there are alot of bad players in DBD, there is in most games you just dont tend to notice because they have a far better SBMM system in play and you wont have bad survivors verse a good killer etc.
But even if theres more bad players (like any game) why does that mean so many other things need changes? Why is it such a crime to say people need to improve?
DBD isnt a complicated game for either side, survivor is also the easier role in terms of micro management and skill caps (hard thing about survivor is your team or versing a stronger killer). So why do X need to be changed for bad players?
Alot of loops and tiles can be pretty safe in matches and theres even alot of god pallets basic killers cant do anything about (even some loops killers cant use their powers at) and these things aren't hard to learn.
I get people can be bad, I get people can be chill but why does stuff need to be nerfed for those players so they can win more? Surely if they wanted to win more they could just put in more effort and "sweat" like killers do.
I personally see alot of good survivors, theres alot out there and I'd definitely class myself as one. I wouldn't class myself as one of the best by a long shot but theres so many things I see people use as an excuse to nerf thing and I dont think it's fair tbh.
I like any game I play to be a challenge, I don't want mega easy wins or places the killer cant do anything about. This excuse balancing for bad players is weird, it just causes worse balance as more people get better.
Maybe I'm just outdated but games use to make you put effort in to win and get better, you're meant to work hard and if matched properly by skill it's meant to be hard and a tough match, DBD community seems to want the opposite. Maybe they're confused and use this excuse because of bad SBMM/matchmaking in general?
If you arent constantly trying, pushing and playing your best you shouldn't expect to do amazing. Not saying you have to play that way just dont expect to win or out perform the other side if you aren't putting in the effort.
Try to get better, learn new things. These arent insults or bad things to have to do, everyone does it and even if it's at different rates it doesnt matter but please stop using it as a reason to make stuff easier.
1: You can't tell people to get better because its not going to happen. The player base is spread out between multiple countries, languages, and systems. Those reading/following guides to get better are relatively small number. You can bemoan the state of survivor play, but it is what it is. As a soloQ survivor I have no control over 75% of what my "team" does, as killer I have 100% control of my play.
2: You mention enjoying things being hard; I agree, it's why I rarely play killer. I'd love to have hard killer games more frequently.
3: Survivor is not the easier role, not even close. Even if a killer is completely new to a map, they are told where the gens and hooks are, they really just have to learn perks as all survivors are the same. Survivors have to figure out where those things usually are + learn all the different killers.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293372#Comment_3293372
I'm not sure I understand how these are issues for the matchmaking system?
Certainly I think the killer/survivor balance is difficult, but that's not a matchmaking thing. I'm also not sure what your point is with the second part there, is it just that bad teammates can lose you games super early? Because that is true of other games too, just to a less sharply obvious degree.
The first point:
The killer is a set amount of skill, while the survivors bring different skills and perks to the game. To use myself: I tend to play healing skills and team builds, if I get matched with a No Mither my usefulness goes down quite a bit, even if we are in the same MMR bracket. It's not just perks, but playstyles that need to match up.
To explain the 2nd point:
Take any game that has respawning, for example I'll use a standard FPS team deathmatch where you play to achieve a certain score, let's say 40 eliminations. Even if both sides are perfectly balanced, either team might have a period were they go on a "run", ie team A might rattle off 6 kills in a row at one point. This is true of sports as well, take basketball, a team might rattle off 12 points in a row with other team getting none, though the end result might be a balanced game.
In the above scenario, the statistical outliers get balanced out by the length of the game. DBD's nature is very different.
As an example let's make up some numbers for a killer's chase in DBD: say 20, 43, 52, 65, 80, 110. If the first chase of the game is the 20 second one, the killer has a huge advantage, if the 110 it's the survivors. Even if the game is balanced you'll have those outlier chases which can really make the game seem unbalanced (maybe it felt like MMR failed, but it was just the early game luck really swung one way or the other). If you played the same survivor/killer matchups multiple times it could become clearer.
The above though is exacerbated that all survivors are not equal - if the killer happens to run into the weakest survivor first, it is a huge advantage.
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@Audiophile said:
Post 4k slaughter by a Blight I noticed they were a streamer so I went into their channel for a chat. In short they acknowledged:
- Winning 95% of their matches
- That matchmaking is broken
- That Blight is broken (though they said it was only certain addons which I disagree with since, as they said, they win 95% of the time with or without those addons)
They said they play Blight because they have fun playing Blight, not because he’s broken or wins all the time.
So… they do something they know is unsportsmanlike and unfair just because they are allowed to and THEY have fun. Regardless of all the people they make NOT have fun because the killer and game are clearly broken. This is a pretty common argument amongst killers in this game. But here’s what this is also saying - they have no moral compass of their own to stop them from doing something wrong. The system they are playing in says it’s ok so they will go along with that since it allows them to do what they enjoy.
Does anyone not see what’s wrong here? Not see the obvious philosophical issue? People who allow themselves to go along with corrupt / broken systems are not free from responsibility. Especially when you’re not forced to go along with it. If you continue to play broken killers and don’t take steps to just play a fair game, you’re the problem. You can’t just blame the game and the unfair system. You have the freedom to make the game more fair by not playing the strongest killers and builds in the game and using the cheapest, easiest tactics. This is why survivors get angry at this game and killers. This is why the DCs and quits. It’s not just saltiness. It’s a complete lack of fairness and an abrogation of responsibility of both killers and BHVR. We want to play fair games, that’s all.
Unfortunately, a lot of DBD is self-policing. If a killer has you clearly outmatched the game has elements for the survivors to ruin it. Jump on a gen, when grabbed, try to escape from the hook.
People might complain about it, but those are design features the developers put in, same as over-powered add-ons.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293009#Comment_3293009
I don't think that's necessarily true, since the important part still functions- that being, the killer winning means that specific survivor lost, so it's still a win/loss game where it still functions as an indication of skill. If you escape more often than you're sacrificed, you're either doing something right or there's something unbalanced going on, and the same goes in reverse and for killer.
The other games being symmetrical means they're easier to balance, but I don't think it matters too much for this particular aspect.
You're facing two other issues
1: Trying to balance one killer against 4 survivors.
2: DBD has a snowball nature not seen in a lot of other games. The first chase or two are massively important. If it lasts for two minutes, survivors likely have multiple gens done. If survivor goes down quick either do to bad luck or being the weak link on the team, the survivors are now slowed down as they'll be constantly rescuing healing throughout the match.
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@BillsHere101 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3293335#Comment_3293335
Please, explain to me, how can you balance a game that is asymmetrical?
I understand that symmetrical games can be balanced for both sides but you can't fold a paper that has different figures? They have a completely different shape!
It's harder to balance, but no means impossible. First you aren't looking to make every game balanced, but balance over many games. If one side is winning considerably more games and/or a perk clearly seems to be dominating one side, you adjust it. You have to continue to make adjustments over time as people change playstyles, but that is true for symmetrical games as well.
There are some other things I could see changing to make the game more casual, but balance is pretty much always going to be a component.
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@HugTheHag said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3287807#Comment_3287807
I've played for about the same amount of time you did, but approach the game very differently.
Sure, the goal of the game is to do gens/escape, or to kill survivors. Technically yes, doing your objective as fast as possible is the way to "win".
However, a lot of people agree that playing the game optimally is not the most fun experience. Tunneling takes out one player entirely, who can't play the game at all because in 3 min they're out with little rewards. Genrushing makes the game last 5 min, with no one getting much points/rewards. Both tend to lead to unilateral game where one side stomps the other. And this often leads to frustrations and bad manners : teabagging and clicking at the gate, hitting on hook or sluggin for 4 min, being agressive in endgame chat...
Some people find their fun from "winning" at all cost. Others don't.
As killer, I personally find my fun in games where it looks like everyone is having fun. I don't bring the strongest stuff, I don't play too efficient. The survivors generally notice and chill themselves. We interact more, stay in good spirits, and don't take to heart wins or losses because the game was entertaining regardless. Positive or fun endgame chat is very frequent.
A lot of the frustrations in this game originate form the fact that matchmaking can't separate super competitive players who care for winning more than for fun (for example, a friend of mine went on a 100 winstreak on Nurse and hated every moment of it, but still did it for WiNnInG), and players that are here to chill and just have a good time. =)
However, a lot of people agree that playing the game optimally is not the most fun experience. Tunneling takes out one player entirely, who can't play the game at all because in 3 min they're out with little rewards.So I get the idea behind this, I generally don't play killer because I feel like I have to avoid doing the obvious thing to keep the game interesting, but I'm surprised how frequently the player base puts this on other players instead of BHVR.
@burt0r said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3287807#Comment_3287807
It's the fate that every online pvp goes over time.
At the start people on the greater scale don't know what's the best tools/strategies and therefore can try a wide variety of things without feeling pressured by the rest.
As the game grow older a meta (most efficient tools available) crystallizes, gets used by the majority and if you don't then you get left behind.
It's the same in DBD as in lol, DotA, R6S, rocket league, Fortnite and so on.
For example rainbow six siege (i don't know if you know the game, but it's too complicated to fully explain):
At release it was enough to know the maps and bunker down at the objective as defender and wait for the attacker.
Nowadays people know the best spots to make peek holes in every wall, spread out through the map to ambush attacker and spawn peek. Half the characters that were fun and useful in the beginning aren't played anymore since their gadgets aren't the most perfect and you will probably get flamed for playing what you like.
But again, that's how the world of online pvp games goes, it is in our nature to optimize and so the most efficient is found and spread via social media and YouTube, so the general public imitates it and the people that want to goof off get left behind. But pvp aren't a casual genre in the first place anymore.
As the game grow older a meta (most efficient tools available) crystallizes, gets used by the majority and if you don't then you get left behind.This makes sense. Games get old and we look back on the old version as if it was radically superior when what it was was new and fresh. Though the creators of DBD deserve massive praise if it took six years to get there.
@versacefeng said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3287807#Comment_3287807
People didn’t play like their life was on the line.
Isn't that what the game is going for though? Tension? That's what has kept me around DBD. Escaping actually feels significant. Getting caught at the end/losing a teammate late actually hurts.
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@Anara said:
I play since 2018, Im a huge fan of dbd, I got a discord server with friends just to play dbd together. At a point we reached so many players. We used to play EVERY night at dbd.
Now we only play for rifts and events. But we get bored and some of us start to stop playing the game even for the rift, they dont care anymore.
I feel like Im the only one still playing in my friend list. But I dont know why I play except the rift.
I still have fun in dbd but its not like before.
And I ask myself : is it me ? or is it the game ?
Answer : its the game, dbd became boring af.
Why ?
Behaviour changed the meta, buffed the killers, created new mechanics like we asked but its not enough....
So what is the problem ?
Players :
- now every players play like its a competition, no fun allowed just skill.
Wrong developpement choices :
- devs encouraging tunneling and slugging.
- new killers discouraging looping strategy for survivors. Hold W meta.
Every games feels the same. Rushing generators, preventing tunneling, tunnel and slug for the 4K, 3gen strategy.
Now there is no place for entertainment, it feels like we are in ranked mode everygame.
What do I suggest :
- Create a ranked mode so people who want to have fun or chill can play in quick mode.
- Delete new jungle gyms who promotes hold W meta.
- For the future killers powers : please go back to create powers who promote mindgames in loops.
- Give us back Hawkins 😌
Its not a whine post, I still love the game but it lost the entertainment aspect of it. I want dbd to feels like scary movie again not a esport game.
What do you think ?
now every players play like its a competition, no fun allowed just skill.I've only been playing for about 4 months, but I'd like to understand the idea behind this. How did people use to play? It's a game, the goal is to accomplish the objectives, the faster you do that (example: gen rush/tunneling) the more likely you can accomplish that.
Now I have a problem that certain perks/add-ons are so powerful that they seem necessary/over-powered, but that's a different issue than player's attitudes toward the game.
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With L4D things that are farther along in the map haven't spawned yet, so the game can adjust them based on playstyle. There aren't really elements like that in DBD. You mention the exit gates, but that would only apply at the very end of the game as a catch up mechanic. I'm not really opposed to the idea, but if it balances anything it is a very, very late correction.
I'd like catch up mechanics as a part of the game, but recognize that they are really tough to implement/balance.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3277970#Comment_3277970
Like I said before... endgame chase... Auras are shown to both until a chase gets started or they are a certain distance away from each other and then a timer starts, when the timer ends the game ends... The survivor (and maybe even the killer) get increased bp gains for that chase... If the survivor can stay alive for the entire chase they gain either a huge amount of bp or even an escape... That way both sides have to earn it... The specifics are up for debate let's say if some pallets respawn ... let's say the amound of broken pallet's is below... 20% or so then it respawns some pallets spread around the map or so... Just to make it not too easy...
I'll take a dive at this idea.
1: The Hatch system already exists. A new system would be new programming, animations, etc. So even if your system is an on-par alternative it's not really time worthwhile.
2: Randomness is not inherently bad and adds excitement. By the time we get to this chase end game I've probably already figured out whether I'll win it or not. As a survivor I could be playing the best killer in the world and the hatch still gives me a chance to play for something exciting.
3: It doesn't really fit the theme. The goal of survivors is to escape. Outlasting the killer doesn't really fit.
4: Some killers/survivors would be clearly better at it than others. This exists with hatch already, but this would magnify it. Chase based killers would have a substantial advantage.
5: Keys would have to be totally reworked. I kind of hate the idea of hatch based items so I don't have a problem with that, but it would be one other thing that would need to be taken care of.
6: I'm not sure what would happen under your scenario if the gens are done and one person is left.
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@AcelynnBen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3270823#Comment_3270823
my dude seriously?
a SWF that almost sent me to the worst map and with 3 prove thyselfs and u want GAMEPLAY, what gameplay do u want ?
me getting destroyed and not being able to do anything about it because im being called out left and right?
and trying to not play with 9 gen regression perks ?
If this is a high MMR SWF and we are taking your picture as evidence of what a normal game is like, the game is highly killer sided.
You got a kill with Sadako, generally regarded as one of the weaker killers. If a high MMR SWF, against a weak killer, still loses a survivor, and that's the norm, then yeah, huge problems on the killer balance. It's absurd to say this is an example of you getting "destroyed"
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As for the main topic: as others have covered, eruption is a problem because against comms it is a minor inconvenience, and against SoloQ its devastating. Even if we aren't discussing balance, that is a poorly designed perk.