crogers271
crogers271
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@Kirahie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/347992/trying-to-figure-out-why-people-are-upset
This isn't taking into account the fact it will never be 45 seconds - it will be 22 seconds every single time.
And swfs will weaponize it.
Do all game decisions have to be made based on how it will work for SWF? While I don't know if there are any recent numbers to my understanding this is a minority of the player base.
If Unbreakable ends up being that powerful and 22 seconds is game breaking do you think they won't touch it? We just had BHVR telling us that they want kill rates around 60% - it seems unlikely that they would radically change their opinion on that idea a week later.
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@Pulsar said:
I'm upset because they absolutely murdered Rancor and actually made No Mither worse.
Fair enough, but different issue then the get up mechanic.
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@FriendlyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202066#Comment_3202066
1. Balance the game for top MMR and survivors at the bottom have the opportunity to get better. I should know, if you check my post history you'll see I started playing almost 50/50 survivor killer a couple patches ago and also felt the game was impossible for survivors. I made an effort to get better and now I'm the survivor that killers(in my admittedly low survivor mmr) drop chase with and leave for last. Balance the game for bottom MMR and survivors at the top become indestructible.
2.They changed a lot of Perks to accommodate these ridiculous balance decisions and reading through them they were either rushed or got really lazy. And who the ######### plays Myers aside from the occasional meme game?
3. No, that kobe meant the Meg could have got hatch. I was all the way across the map. I guess it comes down to how much you want to persevere versus saying all hope is lost but honestly man, your mentality right now is why survivors sacrifice themselves in games that aren't a total curbstomp on the killer. We're losing, give up immediately is not a flattering look. And with all the odds stacked the other way and coming out of it victorious I bet that Meg still remembers that game, just like I do.(it really was a nail-biter).
I guess we just don't agree on the direction the game should take.
We probably do disagree on the direction the game should take. That's not surprising. DBD has a pretty wide player base and I'm sure there are lots of different directions.
1: would be a data issue that I'd be curious to know that I doubt BHVR would reveal. I climbed out of low MMR, but I wonder how many casual players are just there forever.
2: Nothing to add, but I do hit Myers a bit. Probably middle of the pack in terms of frequency.
3: I approve of formal concession in games, like resigning in chess. If the game is almost done (chess equivalent of a couple moves away from checkmate), just play it, it's not that long. But if one player has an absolutely dominant position that it would take a miracle to overcome, then resign, especially if there is a lot of game left to go. It's the respectful thing to do with everyone's time/enjoyment.
Also, I think you are confusing which side of this I have a problem on. Being put into a situation where I have no chance of winning is annoying. Being put in a position where my opponents have no chance to win but it still has to be played out is awful. It's the reason I don't play killer much, that situation where you know you won, but its still going to be five minutes of tracking the survivors down and finishing them off. Anything to speed up that process I'll gladly take.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3202017#Comment_3202017
Hooking and downing are distinct trade offs. One takes way more time and gives time for others to run away, in return for a hook state which can be undone in 1s (unhook time). The other saves way more time and lets you immediately pressure others, in return for potentially giving up 1 of the 3 hookstates needed to actually kill that person. You are literally asking for the killer to be put into a lose-lose where they make the smart play and chase someone nearby and thus lose the down for no good reason, or they hook and give a free escape to the rest which is stupid.
It's not a lose-lose.
Right now, as you said, you have the choice for a likely hook or pressure others with the risk that the survivor is brought back up.
That is still true the risk is just higher. There is less time chase/pressure, absolutely. By why is that wrong?
Maybe the numbers as listed unbalance the game. That's why its being tested. It's adding a new element to the game, more decisions, more strategy, not less.
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@FriendlyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201891#Comment_3201891
Sure, for solos to coordinate in that fashion would be an outstanding display. Lest you have forgotten, SWF's are a thing. And they are quite common once you get to mid-silver, and almost exclusive in Iri.
Second, not just moris, Rancor and Devour Hope as well. Devour is one of the most iconic perks in the game, and the very definition of high risk, high reward. Sometimes there is a particular survivor you want to mori. On rare occasions I've chosen not to use it at all.
Removing gamer choice is pretty much never a good game design decision. And they only work on death hook anyway!
All of this is going to result in matches that can really only play out a couple ways. One of the biggest things DBD had going for it was an almost sandbox feel, where last minute surprises could result in thrilling moments.
Can I give you an example? Sorry for the long post but please bear with me.
I was new to the game, playing Hag on old Haddonfield. I was still pretty bad, but something clicked and I had two survivors killed and one hooked in basement at one Gen left. Down the last survivor, carry them to the hook, and at the last second on the last try survivor in the basement kobes.
I was impressed. I let them out. It was a Meg. I got the Even Punishment achievement that game. I still have the screenshot. It was the first time I ever let a survivor go.
Afterwards we talked about how exciting it was and there were gg's all around. Almost half a decade ago and I remember that game like it was yesterday. No one is going to ever experience that playing this game again. The game would have instantly ended with a lame auto-mori and on to the next match for the same #########.
I can't get behind it man. The chaotic nature of this game is part of what makes it so fun. I look at these proposed changes and imagine what they'll do the the game, and it sounds about as fun as a corporate job at a paper mill.
Sorry for the long post.
1 SWF: The game should not be balanced around them or high MMR. There are constant posts about low MMR hell and how impossible it feels trying to survive. Those people have a right to enjoy the game.
2 I don't know why they are changing Rancor and Decour Hope. They (Peanits) has said that Myers add-ons for instant kills are still in.
3 Your Story: The conceptual problem here is the mercy issue. In this situation there is nothing the survivors could have done to win. I don't think having mechanics to extend the time of the game in the hopes of it impacting a Killer's behavior is a good design element. Another killer perhaps just knocks the survivor back down and puts them on the hook and it was all pointless.
I'm sure there will still be games where it comes down to a second or two deciding it. But, just hypothetically, if I had to lose the 1% of magic games where the survivors mount an amazing last second comeback for the other 99 to be more enjoyable, I'd gladly take that.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201794#Comment_3201794
Yes, the killer should have to accept the survivor will simply get back up on their own despite the killer making the smart play for that situation because… why? How is it fair to punish literally making the intelligent call? Someone should have to come pick them up, they should not be given a self pickup because they got downed near someone else/an unhookable area/etc.
Why shouldn't survivors be able to get back up? That's the current status quo, no reason to believe its the right status quo (and lots of reasons that people keep bringing up about why its bad). Why is it that the Killer should have two options that demand someone from the rest of the team help out (hook and down)?
Also the idea that the Killer is being punished is strange. Just because the elements of a game change and a certain strategy becomes less useful is not a punishment, it's just a change of how the game works. What once was an intelligent play is no longer the correct play, that doesn't mean there still isn't a correct play.
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@DBDVulture said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201706#Comment_3201706
The problem with a change like this is that is beyond extreme. Imagine if they said ok survivors now get unbreakable base kit but Killer regression speed is equal to the repair speed of the total number of survivors that can potentially work that generator.
That is a theoretical equal exchange.
Increasing regression to that rate would be, if I understand the math correctly, a 9 times increase.
Right now a survivor takes roughly 30 seconds to recover on their own, and a tap from their teammate. The proposed change says 45 seconds to recover, no need for a teammate. That doesn't seem like that tremendous a change. The issue of unbreakable comes up, but it's possible that gets changed after testing and/or people misunderstand what BHVR means (as I've seen a few people suggest).
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@FriendlyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201691#Comment_3201691
No, the logic behind the post is you are creating a lose/lose scenario. If you pick the survivor up you get pallet stunned and lose the time spent on that chase. Leave them and the other survivor doesn't have to run you for very long before they're back up. If you down the would-be rescuer that survivor makes sure it's under a pallet.
You could fake the chase until you push them away enough then go back, but this is assuming there's only 2 survivors there. If there are 3 committed to chase and going down under pallets with infinite unbreakable what options do you have?
Now imagine the fourth survivor is spending all of their time on gens. Switching off as needed to heal.
Add in Flip Flop/Power Struggle and now you have a proper ####show.
So, the following needs to happen
-The survivor gets knocked down under a pallet
-The survivors are coordinated enough that they have a person there to stun you
-They have a backup survivor coordinated in case you chase the first one off
-They are able to repeatedly do this so that you are not able to counter it in the 7.5 minutes it takes the remaining survivor to fix the gens.
-All of this presumes that the numbers stay the same after testing.
I mean at that point you say gg because it sounds like they did a pretty amazing job.
@FriendlyKiller said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201687#Comment_3201687
The mori change is lame af also. I picked this name because I usually always let the last survivor go. We can't choose who gets moried anymore, why not?
This entire patch should be scrapped.
You can still let the last survivor go, just not if everyone is down. While I don't know why they are getting rid of earlier moris, this addition makes sense. It's a waste of time once all survivors are down/hooked. Game's almost certainly done, let's move on.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201706#Comment_3201706
But its only a select few scenarios where you bleed out for the 4 mins, a blanket built in unbreakable is not really the solution to that.
I'm all for them testing things but this one really is a bad idea.
Where's the threat of being downed if you can pick yourself up?
Its an escalation, you get chased, wounded, downed. Escalating threat is essential to an exciting game experience.
You can escape from chase unharmed, you can heal yourself with various mechanics or get healed, but once down you need a team mate or specific limited use perk to help you... that's an appropriate escalation of threat given what it takes to be downed.
People may say that DBD isn't a horror game, well let me tell you watering down the escalating threat is one sure fire way to make it not a horror game.
You take the horror out of DBD and what do you have left, a scooby doo chase simulator with really dull repetitive mechanics.
There are so many dull pvp games out there where you just respawn endlessly till you hit max time/score I'd hate to see dbd start going that way.
Why have dying state at all if you can just undo it for free whenever you like?
Your rationale for this is people don't like being slugged, well I say those people don't get why its a good part of the game.
It really does feel like pandering to the "waah I don't like this delete it" crowd. Which we all know are the worst kind of gamers.
The threat of being downed is it's a step to getting put on the hook. That's what the game revolves around. Find, chase, hit, chase, hit, pick, hook. At multiple points during it the survivor and/or his/her team may be able to knock the process back a step. I'd say the thing killing the horror element is the slugging, not something meant to encourage its removal. It's always weird to get put down and then see the killer run away.
The killer skipping the last steps is a tension killing slowdown. The Killer eats up more time while not progressing the main objective (sacrifices). Worse, when done with two survivors it ruins the game.
Maybe the changes as proposed go too far. I suspect the times of unbreakable will be nerfed a lot. Maybe the bleedout timer will need to be adjusted to like 2:00. Something like that would still give survivors reasons to pick up their allies to preserve bleedout time. However, that's what playtesting is for, but overall it's addressing an area of the game that needs attention
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I propose Killers get the following basekit changes:
The ability to always see where gens are
The ability to see hooks when they pick up a survivor
The ability to always see the exit gate locations once powered up
The point here is that killers already have everything they need to play the game. Killers have the option to put survivors in positions that are incredibly boring and tedious (face camping, slugging, three genning from the start) and the response to survivors is 'take these specific perks to counteract it'. It becomes a guessing game on the survivor side which is crazy for soloQ.
There's no equivalent on the Killer side except probably Lightborn against high powered flashlights. Everything else that the Survivors can do can be dealt with via Killer strategy/play. Choosing a particular perk should not be necessary (especially when there are 113 survivor perks and it takes a long time to unlock them all) to have a fun game which is why making certain things basekit should absolutely be considered.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201150#Comment_3201150
exactly.
This effect renders being knocked down meaningless and forces pick ups that may not be the best play in the moment.
Being slugged and bleeding out are appropriate threats to face when playing survivor.
This change is nothing more than trying to placate tantrum throwers who can't stand the 4 min timer.
"This change is nothing more than trying to placate tantrum throwers who can't stand the 4 min timer."
Being left to lay on the ground for 4 mins is boring. BHVR is trying to remove a boring element from a game that is supposed to be tense and exciting. They are going to test out an idea.
Like, yeah, good.
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Survivors have to make strategic decisions without communication within a matter of seconds. The logic of this post is that 22 seconds is not enough time for killers to come up with a plan on what to do.
Also: the game shouldn't be balanced around 3/4 SWF unless there is evidence that is the majority of the player base.
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Why should you be allowed to camp the survivor? Like I get it, you want the kill, that's understandable, but the survivors also want to prevent you from getting the kill. They should have some tools to do that. If a hook was a guaranteed elimination it would be a very different game.
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@get_barted said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3201507#Comment_3201507
You dont always have a full team. People DC, go AFK, if you are Solo q you tend to get ignored. However most times i see killers slug is when they already have a 2 K and they slug one survivor to go hunt for the other.
I have been slugged at 2k and left to bleed out because the other survivor just hid lockers while I bled out. Why should I be slugged for 4 min because my team mate is hiding like coward instead trying to help just because they want hatch.
On top of a teammate hiding, there are also the killers who will slug and never leave the body.
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@camman0000 said:
I had this thought recently best explained that the way the game has been going is that there is so little of fun being had for people who try to win vs. those that don't. I understand that it's always been a thing but now more than ever I have felt like if I want to win I have to play "optimally" and playing optimally for either side is straight up not fun.
Gen builds/crazy items and oppositely Tunneling/camping/strong addons etc. all feel much more common. While they do have their place in the game I think people have given up on trying to play the game differently and to have something crazy or play well without these items/strats.
But maybe that's just me.
To me, all competitive games are about trying to win. It bothers me when someone playing isn't trying their best. I would rather have the newest player in the world who has never heard of DBD in the game than a 1000+ hour player goofing off.
That's how I play games. I've learned that others don't. BHVR though seems interested in pleasing everyone and that leaves everyone with problems.
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As killer, if the survivors get the gens done I don't feel like its total victory.
To me 1 escape is a draw (not counting hatch/door if not 5 gens)
As survivor if I escapes, or at least 2 survivors do, I count it as a win.
BP and pips are irrelevant to how I feel about a match. If we escape and my BP are awful because I was just doing gens, doesn't matter. Win or lose as a team.
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@My_Aespa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3197587#Comment_3197587
Don't need to be rude about it. And "I'm point out why" doesn't made sense grammatically so, I'll correct you on that.
Your response to Updated Cake and myself included; "if you read". That's exceptionally rude to presume someone hasn't even read the post they are responding to. You made a post and we explained for different reasons why you were incorrect. You can either engage and say why you think you are right despite our arguments, admit that what we said makes sense, or just not respond (you can also wait for grammatical errors I guess if that's your preferred means of argumentation). Just because something is an assumption doesn't mean others shouldn't comment on why it might be a bad assumption.
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@My_Aespa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3197558#Comment_3197558
Like I said, if you read, it's just an assumption.
And I'm point out why, logically, the assumption doesn't make sense.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
Then make it efficient for survivors to group on gens. It should be more effectent for survivors to group up and do there objective together. 120 is just a big number it could be shorter or longer. I dont get why it's more efficient for the team to spit up and not be a team. One of the biggest problems imo I that it's better to work alone most the game then it is to be a team. I think they would need to add a basekit bond to help with solo.
Right now survivors have a choice to make
Focus on one gen as a team, increasing the chance it can get done before the killer can regress it - though it's also an 'all the eggs in one basket approach'. Also be close to each other for support if the killer comes. On the other hand, increase the risk of getting 3 gen.
Spread out, maximizing the amount of gens that get done, but increasing the risk the gen doesn't actually get finished. Also if you are caught by the killer and hooked, at least one other survivor has to waste time to get to you.
Any mix of the above.
There are merits to each of the approaches. You want to make one approach the clear superior option.
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That happens once a day? I've only ever had this happen a couple times.
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What? Even if cheating is a minor occurrence I would hope the devs are doing their best to make is happen even less.
@My_Aespa said:
I think the problem is, these streamers that also cheat are also the game's biggest money spenders, so why would the devs even think about banning them? I feel like they would definitely turn a blind eye to cheaters who buy almost every cosmetic the game comes out with. This is just an assumption, not saying it's the real reason.
DbD has sold millions of copies. I highly doubt there is a person or algorithm that sorts cheaters by money spent.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
Since many content creators and also regular players can and are hold hostage and are forced to either wait 2 hours (where the game will close itself) or just take the DC penalty that can grow and grow stronger overtime if you keep finding cheaters or you are targeted by them... lets try to find some band aid fix ideas. Here are some of my ideas to help deal with it better:
- Maximum duration of the match as a whole is 45 min. After this time the game will be closed and everyone will return to lobby with their earned BP and items, etc. It's like escape for Survivors and for Killer just regular end of the game. No MMR would change from this match tho.
- However, if No Generator has been completed for 15 minutes total, the match will end as well sooner to prevent holding hostage for very long time. The 45 min is there just for very long games where tiny progress is being made or just some special occasions.
- After End Game Colaps ended, the server should end after 10 seconds if there is anyone still alive bugged or holding hostage.
Thoughts? Your ideas?
I didn't know the max game length was two hours. That's crazy.
Does anyone out there have some epic story of an hour long DBD game that was also good? Like anything over 30 minutes (and that's pushing it) seems like a bad time for all involved.
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@ryokoryu said:
So I have been running into this thing where I will hit a survivor they will run around in circled in front of me a couple times then past me just as my recovery is about to finish and will leave no scratch marks or blood leading away and there is nothing they could have ducked behind in range, the scratch marks and blood are there from where they ran around in circles but the trail literally stops at me.
Can you hear moans? Though those also be suppressed by a perk.
I've seen this as well and here is what I think the survivor is doing:
Get hit, run around, run to the opposite side of the killer right as the cooldown ends, crouch, and as the killer spins around, walk back to the other side. It taking advantage of the killer view and that generally killers presume the survivor kept running.
Because they made a circle in front of you they can now walk over that and the blood trail won't be clear.
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@Ciabe said:
Edit: This is NOT a discussion of SoloQ vs SWF. Enough other threads arguing that.
Statistics are the best liars.
I don't doubt 39% is the actual mean of escape rate for all survivors from all matches globally. However, that is masking a very big lie through omission with selective statistical presentation. Pre Patch BHVR happily released perk usage rate by MMR tier to justify itself. Note how they did NOT break down escape rate by MMR this time. The reason is quite simple.
High MMR SWF survivors probably have an escape rate of 50-75% going off data I can find and I think most true high mmr killers would concur. Those high mmr survivors also play a lot of games. So you have a small subset of your playerbase, maybe 10-20% who play lots of games that are skewing the number higher to 39% (which already seems painfully low).
So this means our low and medium mmr survivors are likely seeing escape rates of 15-25%, 30% tops. My own data from just under 400 games since 6.x patch pegs it around 15-20% (yes I'm probably low tier mmr now) and I've seen similar data sets from others.
What we need is escape rate broken down into MMR ranges and SoloQ vs SWF. Would also be interesting to average every players individual escape rate, then take a global mean and median of all players. This would remove impact of a pro survivor playing 1000 games in a week vs casual playing 10 games in a week. If there is a huge difference between the mean and mode, that would heavily indicate stats being skewed by a few highly skilled survivors. Same thing is done in economics, looking at the average/mean income isn't helpful because you have a few outliers earning tens of millions of dollars while the median shows your more true "average".
I'm also unclear how they intend an elo based mmr system to function if they aren't aiming for a 50/50 win rate. Seems like they were really close to good pre patch with 47/53 (although even that was getting skewed by high escape rate survivors). If most of your survivor player base sees under 30% win rate and killers get over 70% win rate, your mmr distributions are going to look like two inverse curves. Fear my mspaint skills to see the issue. How are you going to make good matches when each player base is lumped together on each end? With two different pools you have to match between, you would ideally want them to be similar shapes. This is probably why high MMR killers had bad queue times early on before they widened the spread.
I actually think there are two other points that back up your 39% is inaccurate claim
1: If a player disconnects early the game is tossed for data purposes (to my understanding). But if you play it out it still feels like you lost.
2: While disconnects are tossed, AFK killers probably aren't. Mercies probably aren't. So while there is a system in place to catch and throw out kills because of survivor behavior, I don't think there is one to do the same thing for killer (or put another way: the system tosses kills that happened because of something happening outside what the game intends, it doesn't have a mechanism to catch the same about escapes).\
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I'm a relatively new player and am escaping maybe 50% of the time. But yeah, there was a period early where it was just non stop massacres.
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On your chart, shouldn't the bottom 25% of killers get matched against the bottom 25% of players (or what ever the groupings are) - so maybe I'm not getting something but I don't see how that is a problem.
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@Gamedozer7 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/347370/100-hours-thoughts-never-have-i-ever
Do you have any of the newer killers because most of the older ones are pretty simple but they have little tricks that you would never think of but most of the new killers have more to there power. The game is very killer sided at the lower ranks because survivors are lost pretty much it get much more difficult as your opponents skill increases. You should try working your way up in mmr it really doesn't take that long mmr is pretty loose that been said maybe your just a survivor player and killer isn't the role for you.
I have not; used shards on survivors. If there is one I can get with shards that you'd like to recommend I'll give it a try and promise to keep an open mind.
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@OpalescentHare said:
I keep getting in matches where the killer aims for a 3-gen... And that's it. They will hit people off gens, but will not commit to chases. They will down survivors, but not hook them. They just protect their 3-gen for over an hour. At that point people either actively refuse to be picked up so that they can bleed out and leave, DC, or meme around with each other. Because there is no way to progress the match due to how the killer is refusing to do anything that allows progress for either side.
This is becoming a semi-regular occurrence. Having it every rare now and again is frustrating, but not at all ruining the game as a whole for me. But the past couple of weeks it has happened on the daily. No one should have to DC to get out of a match that the killer refuses to hook or chase survivors in, or hold down the running button to avoid recovery just to get out of a match. At that point, protecting a gen should be holding the game hostage since they are pressuring gens to no end beyond bleeding out survivors for 4 minutes each at best.
The solution to your problem is going about it the wrong way. Presuming this situation is common enough to be a problem that's on BHVR, not players trying to win.
Easier solutions
1: Map design so the possibility of 3 super easy to defend gens just doesn't occur.
or
2: If the survivors are on 1 gen left and 5 minutes (random guess on the time) have passed without a hook, the gen with the least progress deactivates and a previously done gen reactivates. Call it the 'Entity is Bored' mechanic.
-this would probably lead to situations where the players try to hide when on the final 3 gens. Okay, puts more pressure on the killer to get them out earlier
Asking to ban players for pursuing a strategy is a bad idea. I 3 gen as a killer and it can really slow the game down, but it also allows me to accomplish my goal. If BHVR made it harder/less advantageous to 3 gen, I'd do it less.
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@kizuati said:
So remember when BHVR said that the incentives are based on the amount of players in the role,region and your MMR bracket?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/THRA6AAA0A6J/image.png
Matchmaking incentives are unique to you and dependent on your matchmaking ratings and region. Developer Update | June 2022
So.. I just plain do not believe that this is the case and I'm calling on the devs to explain how this could happen. I'm a very low MMR survivor - I die a lot as I usually goof around and run meme builds and play primarily solo,a notoriously bad idea if you want to live. As killer,I should be in a decently high MMR bracket,I get lots of kills and all the survivors I face have lots and lots of hours and really high prestige levels are common.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/TRI712GKULIY/image.png
Did everyone quit or something? How could solo queue be unfun? /s
Despite the disparity in my MMR,I only ever see an incentive on one of the roles,which makes little sense,how is there never a deficit of low MMR survivors at the same time as high MMR killers or vice versa?
That is highly unlikely.
You know what's also weird? Every Killer you play has different MMR,but BHVR just applies it to the role,period. Either they're ignoring MMR or per-killer MMR is completely useless and abritrarily limited us to switch Killers in the lobby.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/5BJHYCIW4JD1/image.png
I have a clear preference of some killers over others and have a much higher MMR bracket on some of them.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8GN6ZZTZW5NF/image.png
This particular lady faces the highest caliber survivors that there is.
The TL;DR of this thread is that it looks like BHVR couldnt make a MMR based incentive system and instead based on it on the plain ratio of survivor : killers in a region.
I would like a dev to comment on this,because this makes no sense. If MMR is truly taken into account,there should be incentives on both sides for people with vastly different ratings and different incentives per killer*.
*If someone is going to tell me that they just average the MMR and go off that,how about we do that for Killer in general and just stop locking people out of switching characters?
By the way - bring back the incentives being multiplicative.
I think there is a lot simpler explanation:
1: I've never heard of anyone seeing bonuses on both survivor and killer, so they just go to what the most needed pref is.
2: For killers, yeah they probably either average or look at what you have recently been playing. Does that mean you could see a boost and then play a killer in an MMR and still have a wait? Yeah, but I'm not sure how they'd do anything different.
3: Given your situation, high MMR for killer, low for survivors: the most obvious explanation is that low MMR is always in desperate need of survivors and that's going to override the killer no matter the situation.
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As for a couple of other points
As for getting a reply, I don't think the person who does the MMR is on the forums. I've seen posts from BHVR staff about having to talk to the guy who does it to get an answer.
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I admire that you took the time to do the data.
You might also want to include your region and normal time of play.
Also (I only looked at your first video), did you watch the full matches play out or does the data only go until you die.
Here are some other interesting figures pulled from your data if I'm following it correctly:
Escape when Hatch Enabled: 11.76%
Killer Domination (3 or less gens done): 33.33%
Squash Game (2 gens or less done): 20%
Odds that 5 gens would get finished and you would not survive: 13.33%
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If you ever do something like this again I'd encourage you to add a column to separate out hatch escapes and what the total number of survivor who escaped was.
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@Kirahie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3194358#Comment_3194358
Ah yes, the "easy" role despite the fact that good SWFS are tracking on 300+ 4 man escapes.
Sounds like a skill issue.
I feel that every thread that has complaints about soloQ balance issue should have a counter until someone brings up SWF.
Yes, SWF have a huge advantage. I don't think I've seen anyone argue the opposite. What does that have to do with the obvious problems with solo (where I suspect most of the players are)?
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@Brimp said:
How are addons a weird game concept. Its legit the same concept of attachments on guns for CoD. You lose out on some stats with some while gaining in a different category then there's just other stats that provide small boosts with no downside.
On lower level add-ons sure, and on that part I think its a great idea, but it's a massive change later. A flashlight with two brown add-ons is a minor annoyance for the killer. One with two top level attachments fundamentally changes the game.
Additionally (and I don't have a CoD reference point since the mid 2000s), the guaranteed expire nature means frequently they just aren't being used.
The difference between yellow and purple perks is usually not that big of a deal and, once you get to purple, you never have to worry about it again. For items whether survivors/killers are or are not willing to throw in top level add-ons is a massive deciding factor for how the game goes.
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@Rovend said:
Title.
Help me understand this
I get that dbd is an asymmetrical game as in one strong player (killer) goes against four weaker players (survivors), but that does mean the killer needs to get kills easier and survivor escape less and less?
I truly dont get it, the balance of any game with players against players (even if 1v4) should try to be 50%-50%, or at least try to be close to that number if not if you lose a game as surv (or win as killer) how can you really tell is because you lack skill / items / perks and is not because of game design.
I can live with a kill rate of 60%. It could be higher even. I do wish in forum conversations when Survivors complain about the difficulty, killer mains would start with 'I realize I have the easier role...'
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@pseudechis said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3191545#Comment_3191545
The generalised points in the article aren’t that relevant here, because we are talking theme vs function. The psychology of fairness is a different discussion.
My point is that thematically dbd isn’t really meant to be fair. No one would watch a horror film if the monster was no threat to the characters. We have super hero films for that and they are bland as drywall from a story perspective.
While a 50/50 escape rate may seem fair it’s not that interesting of a game. DBD is pretty mechanically bland, the game play isn’t that engaging.
It’s the threat of elimination that makes it interesting. The greater that threat the more interesting the game.
Most games are stacked against the player and in the general sense the player here is the survivor role. But we need a monster to play against, they could have gone the GTFO route and made an AI, but direct competition is more visceral.
So we have a pvp experience where you can be the monster but it’s only really effective if the monster is a threat. So the monster should mechanically be the equivalent of 4x survivors.
Which will likely create a natural skew toward the killer in game outcome given a lot of interactions in game are 1v1 where survivors are kinda screwed.
So 50/50 being the goal of fairness in this scenario is a bit off. You’re probably looking more akin to 60/40 power of mechanics fixed, weighted against team coordination, highly variable.
That’s ok in an asymmetric setting where fairness is inevitably going to be skewed somewhat.
This is DBD not pong there a greater caveats to outcome beyond just the idea that everyone is on an equal playing field. Because they really aren’t and attempts to make them so water down the game experience thematically.
I want touch on your points of theme and the threat of elimination making the game interesting.
As a goal, that's absolutely true (I agree its something the game should shoot for). The problem is that DBD doesn't actually accomplish it that frequently and the kill rates are a bad indicator.
No horror movie would be interesting if at the 40 minutes mark all the heroes were dead. Horror grabs its excitement from the prospect that a character may or may not escape. Both have to remain true to keep the tension up. When a survivor is out before a gen is even done, a killer is just face camping a hook, or the survivors are just getting stomped, the mood isn't 'oh my god, we might get eliminated' like in a horror movie its 'yeah, this match is done'.
Part of the issue is that if this was mirroring the horror theme 4k and 4 escapes would both be rare events, with the middle being much more common. Except its usually 4k, 1k, or 0k. Now as a purely competitive game, having either side completely win or lose, with middling results being rare, is perfectly acceptable, but it doesn't actually match the theme.
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I'm surprised people find Killer stressful. My experience has always been the opposite. As survivor a single mistake can end the game for you. Also, things can happen that you have no control over, bad play/luck by a teammate can end your chances. As killer if I miss a chase, no big deal. Get back on the gens, find another survivor, etc. Survivors running through the gens? Focus on the narrowing map. Fail even that, focus on trying to catch one during EGC.
As survivor the fact that I can be eliminated adds a ton of stress. That doesn't exist for killer. Not saying it is necessarily easy, just surprised people find it more stressful.
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I only started playing with the 6.1 patch, but giving bonus points based on perks seems like a strange game design (I remember arguments about this back in Deathgarden, ugh).
If there are certain game designs that the developers are trying to encourage/avoid, the reward for following those should be increased victories. If you want to give bloodpoints for it that should just be a base part of the game.
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@Kees_T said:
Self-Care is only worth if you comibe it with Botany Knowledge, it's incredible for SoloQ.
Self-Care alone is ~45 seconds
Self-Care with Botany Knowledge is ~31 seconds (14 seconds of difference)
Healing another Survivor with Botany is only ~11 seconds(from 16 seconds)
Combine it with Dead Hard + Adrenaline, you'll be using the best build for solo queue, it offer: Ability to heal yourself faster for saves and more time looping, heal your teammates faster, Dead Hard for extending chases(it's still the best exhaustion perk in the right hands) and Adrenaline for those clutch moments that you get speed boost during a chase + free health state.
The one thing I don't get about complaints on self-care (which the quoted post is not doing, but has the times)
Self-care with botany at 31 seconds, but healing by teammate is 16 seconds. However, healing via a teammate means two survivors are doing nothing for 16 seconds, so 32 seconds of survivor time eaten up. Even if we presume botany in both situations, survivors still have to run to each other so a couple of seconds are wasted.
There are some clear flaws to self-care, but it can be pretty useful. Especially if you don't have 100s of hours in to have unlocked a wide array of other perks.
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Being we're throwing out crazy perks that are never going to happen based on this:
BECOME THE KILLER
If a Survivor has been downed for 20 seconds or more, you may kill them. The Entity rewards you and punishes the Killer. You are now the Killer, the Killer is now a Survivor.
Like someone else mentioned, I thought this thread was going to be a counter slug idea. Here's my crazy idea for that:
COMMUNE WITH THE ENTITY
Activates if you have been on the ground for 45 seconds or more during which the Killer has not hit another Survivor or put one on a hook. You inform the Entity that the Killer isn't scary anymore. The Killer is stunned and blinded for 5 seconds, all survivors that are down are brought up, and you gain a permanent haste effect.
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1: When a person's life is on the line they can run for a very long period of time.
2: After a while the killer gets a speed boost. If you really want to just think of this as the survivor slowing down, but the gameplay being more clear.
3: As mentioned there are clearer sprint actions in the game that have a pretty clear limit.
4: I can heal a hook through the chest with my hands. The idea that survivors don't exactly have normal bodies is pretty obvious.
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I've never disconnected from a game.
But if it's clear we the survivors are just getting stomped, I'm not going to pretend the game is competitive (especially when a killer seems so preternaturally good that it feels like they are cheating). I'll get on a gen and when the killer comes I'll just let him take me. I won't hide or draw it out and I'll keep doing gens, but that's it. I'll gladly get out and into a different game and let someone else try for the hatch.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3184642#Comment_3184642
I play both evenly, but the projection is adorable. Yes, it is intentionally overwhelmingly in the killer’s favor. Guess what? It’s almost like that’s literally what happens when one side completely stomps the other.
Or do you think that if gates are opened while no one is on death hook, the gates should become blocked for a period and everyone should become Exposed and Mori’able so the killer can also have a chance of a comeback after getting absolutely stomped all game?
But the killer does get an advantage when getting stomped. The map shrinks. I've been in plenty of games (as killer and survivor) where killers have mounted comebacks at the end. It's incredibly easy to snatch at least a 1k against a team of superior survivors.
Additionally, the end game for a total survivor victory is like a minute and is a fun mad rush. With 2 survivors left the game can drag on for a really long time and is incredibly boring.
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You know the sad thing about this post?
I'd take it in a heartbeat over the status quo.
2 survivors left is one of the most boring games in existence (especially if they have barely been hooked yet). Every now and then I've had a great experience at two, though it usually involves finishing a gen pretty soon after the 2nd survivor is eliminated. However, far more frequently it turns into an absolute slog of boredom.
I do think there are a lot of fixes that could be made though. I think an simple idea would be just to speed things up. Survivors can fix gens a lot faster, but to compensate for this the killer also gets a speed boost. There are a lot of possible solutions, but something should change. 2 survivors left should not take as long as the rest of the game, which sadly happens all too frequently.
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As killer: defend 5, 6, and 7 as your critical gens, 1 and 3 if you can, don't worry about 2 and 4. Depends a little on which killer you are using.
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The elimination format is a crazy design element that DBD seems committed to. Whether it be faster gens, gen regression, speed boost, something should happen to give the remaining survivors a chance.
It would make lore/theme sense as well. As survivors are lost the remaining becoming more panicked/concerned leading them to push themselves harder.
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@Raptorrotas said:
Great idea! We totally should also have survivors regress to being injured once 3 gens are done, making them permanently broken.
We totally shouldnt do this idea. You already havee a no regress point for your objectives, when a gen is done. Regression is bad enough as is.
But killers do get an advantage as gens are done, the map they have to defend shrinks. Even if the survivors play great early, the killer can come back late. Survivors just have to struggle down a player.
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@WeakestNurseMain said:
I have 2k hours in this game, I'm a pretty solid looper and killer, that being said, sometimes I just don't know how I lost, like I know that I made a lot of mistakes, I admit this to myself while playing, but I can't point to any one thing as the reason why I lost, I decided to play nice and not tunnel, but the survivors brought all meta perks with tool boxes and medkits, and I just kinda lose. I don't really learn anything from that, I guess I should stop using Shadowborn? With a game like Doom, at least I can point to something and say "Yeah, maybe I could've played around that enemy better, or used this gun at this time," but with DBD, I just lose and I guess the takeaway is to not try so I don't get my hopes up? Maybe I'm putting too much brain power into this and this game is just unfair sometimes, but I just don't get how people can play it super sweaty for thousands of hours and not realize how their wins are predicated on using the strongest stuff every game.
You are comparing a multiplayer game with a single player. Sometimes you play well, the opponent player better - sometimes you play poorly but the opponent's are like garbage. On top of that the perk nature means sometimes your side has a build going for a certain strategy, but the opponent has just the build strategy to counter that.
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@Hoodied said:
Idk how to fix a generator i’m not a mechanic
Pull the levers and twirl the gizmawhats.
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@Tsulan said:
The basekit BT was a pretty huge buff for survivors. Unless you want a buff for solos only. Which by default isn't possible. Simply because every buff ultimately also benefits SWF.
Something, like icons and/or more communication, needs to be done to put solo Q and SWF on approximately the same playing field. SWF will always have an advantage over random, but right now its so massive that its like two different games. That's impossible to balance.
Or to put it another way, let's say a change made the game 25% easier for solos and 5% easier for SWF. Have survivors gotten overall stronger? Absolutely, but the playing field is now more level. Once that occurs actual balance can be looked at.
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The worst thing a survivor can do to the killer is crouch a couple times. The killer gets to literally murder the survivor.
Waiting at the exit gate is kind of annoying, but I don't mind it in other places. If you think you can loop the killer and want to taunt him into chasing you (and thus leaving your teammates free), go for it.
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I view it as a team game. If 2 or more survivors escape, I consider it a survivor win. I don't care if I died, feels like a win.
I do think when it gets to doors survivors should just leave. If I get put on the hook late and see that the others are coming for me, unless I'm close to the exit I'll intentionally sacrifice myself. I'd rather they get out then take the risk to get me.
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@dictep said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3169801#Comment_3169801
the devs should make bloodlust and lunge attack perks and remove them from basekit
That is a brilliant reply.
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@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3164293#Comment_3164293
No, I’m saying do one of the following. Don’t care which one:
- Work on gens
- Wait the 4m
- Give up
If all four possible options for a game amount to: you've lost, but how long do you want to draw it out - the game has a problem that should be addressed. Really at this point the survivors should just have a surrender option if killers are going to be so opposed to hatch and we can all move onto the next game.