Going against the Grain with the new announcement
I actually really like the new announced changes.
I like the base-kit unbreakable. 45 seconds is quite a long time to pick someone up and get them on the hook, and it helps to reduce using slugging as a primary strategy rather than an opportunistic or last resort one. Which is really not fun for your opponents, but very reliable on some killers. Slugging when done opportunistically will still be valuable, you are still chasing and downing a second person while having 1 person on the floor doing nothing. Then, after the first guy gets up, he will also be an easy target to come back to once you're done with the person you slugged him to chase.
In return, the killer has a more powerful end game because heal tech is significantly nerfed. Additionally, 1 or 2 mistakes is all it takes for survivors to be put in a position where they are 45 seconds away from complete loss of the match.
I think base kit unbreakable is a lot more underwhelming than many people think it is. The reason unbreakable is so threatening is that you can't know whether a survivor actually has it, so you're taking a risk every time you choose to slug. When you know everyone has it at 45 seconds, you're always going to play around that, and thus even equipped unbreakable will be less valuable by comparison.
The killer hurt the most by this change is twins because she is forced to slug a lot but we all know the twins is in dire need of an update and the devs know she needs changes too. At one point she was on the chopping block for changes but the update never came around I assume because it was pushed back by other updates. Condemn only slugdako is obviously hurt a lot, but I don't think many people apart from one pump willie are shedding a tear for that because let's be honest it's not the most engaging gameplay in the world. Moonwalk chasing survivors holding tapes. Slugging literally everyone you down. Focusing one person out early. None of these things are desirable gameplay traits.
Other than that blights and nurse's choosing to 4 man slug as their primary strategy will be much less effective, but I think these S tier killers will find a way to cope with the new state of things...
In reality, I don't think 45 second unbreakable is going to affect gameplay significantly for most killer. Actually, equipping unbreakable is more powerful than before in that you can it more than once. However, the value of doing it more than once is diminished by the fact that without it can stand up all you want anyway, it just makes that happen faster. Unbreakable remains the hard counter to slugging, even though slugging is overall less effective than before.
People aren't going to suddenly start using tons of new infinite unbreakables.
Look at BT. Even 5 seconds being basekit resulted in most people dropping the perk completly. 10 seconds being base kit even more so. Yes BT is more powerful than before, but people still don't use it much. The same will happen here.
Comments
"45s"
"quite long"
Okay, so you chase a survivor. You do good in chase and so you down the first in ~30s chase. 2.7s attack cooldown. You know another is nearby, so you find them and begin chase again (several seconds). You do good in chase again and down them in ~30s. 2.7s attack cooldown. You head back towards wherever the first survivor is (several seconds). They have been back up and gone, with zero help from anyone else. Let alone there being a third in the area that would be smart to start chase with normally.
This is with having done good in both chases. Average chase and you go into 40-50s. At which point the first is back up. And this is repeatable again and again. Toss in an Unbreakable and it drops to a mere 22.5s per recover instead.
Agreed. I think both are good changes. I have no more to add without just repeating your post.
Just press space and put them on the hook lmao.
Surely if you're doing that well you don't need to slug, though
Like you could just hook, go after the 'nearby' survivor and down them in 30s or however long and now you have a hook and a down.
Or you could just m1 them, go back and hook and then finish the chase. You're still creating pressure either way
And if they go down at a pallet or someone's there with a flashlight or makes a sabo play? If you pick them up they get saved if you leave them to chase the second person they get up without help.
If you left them on the ground under a pallet for 45s with someone playing around it they were one tap off a heal and getting up with either someone throwing the pallet or unbreakable.
Yes, just make the intentionally dumber and worse gameplay decision by not slugging when multiple are in the vicinity.
Except. That is literally the worse gameplay decision (unless the one downed is just outright dead on hook). Hooking means you instantly change it from what would start at a 16s heal while they don’t have recovery progress to bring them back to standing, to what becomes a 1s unhook to bring them back to standing. Also the time in pickup, carry, and hook, all of which is time for the nearby survivors to make distance. You are literally expecting a person to play intentionally worse.
But in that case someone has to come off a gen to get them up or the person your chasing has to take a hit to get them up. Now they just get up no one gets off gens and you don't get that hit.
Someone's already off a gen. You're chasing them.
I think while conceptually there's some good stuff here. A lot of it doesn't feel well thought out.
I do like that BHVR is trying putting experimental changes on the ptb for feedback. Hopefully we see more of that and this isn't a 1 time deal.
If they are under a pallet? If someone is nearby while they are in the open with a flashlight? If they are in a high place with boil over?
As certain killers too picking someone up wastes your power, like Oni, Plague and Myers
Not really your or my place to say what is the "worse" gameplay decision when all of that is determined by both the player(s) and the outcome. My interpretation of the changes is "hook more, slug less". Obviously there are already glaring issues like pallet/FL saves, certain perks and the like. I'm not fully onboard with it but I am trying to look at it from all angles here
Like most killers will get punished if they play the way you described in current DBD (Unless they are Nurse, Blight or a good Twins). Most M1 killers can't afford to slug people like that anyway unless survs make it extremely easy (Which in your example, you said it's at least 30s which I would call fast but not easy.) I hope you'd agree.
I'm glad that slugging for the 4K will be greatly reduced. There are some parts that may be problematic. When I'm moving up in MMR as Killer I quite often get coordinated groups where I have to down two or three survivors to get one hook (or else I'll be sabo'ed or hit with a beamer) and the cycle repeats.
45 seconds shouldn't pose an issue but 22.5 seconds may not give enough time to pick up someone and get them on a hook versus swarming SWFs.
I'd prefer that Unbreakable still only reduces the time to 22.5 seconds for one self pick-up and then 45 seconds for the rest (with the increased recovery time making it easier for your teammates to pick you up). Exponential can be snuffed, No Mither is, well, No Mither but there is no way to counter Unbreakable in the situation I described.
I think that would be a fair compromise as UB is still buffed, less slugging to prevent hatch but the potential for abuse is lessened.
Oni/Plague/Myers in power. Limited/pseudo-limited effects like Haunted Grounds/Starstruck/Devour Hope Exposed (given people will try to kill it)/etc. Pinhead during Chain Hunt when multiple are nearby, or having downed someone and someone is solving the Lament Configuration nearby. Dredge during Nightfall and Killer Instinct shows others are nearby too. Etc etc. These are all examples of things that get majorly punished for making smart use of limited durations.
If you choose to slug to chase a healthy survivor, you have to accept that the first guy will get up. The trade you are making in this scenario is deciding to chase a potentially closer to death target or weaker link while leaving another person disabled and not repairing gens for 45 seconds. You are typically not going to get 2 hooks out of slugging unless you are slugging for a quick down on someone injured, which is still a trade or opportunity beneficial to you.
Look at it like this, even now in the live game, someone coming to get the dude up off the floor is 16 seconds x 2 people's time or 32 seconds. 45 seconds for them to get up on their own is actually slower and is more pressure.
Yes but 9/10 time that person has to take a hit to pick them up or someone else has to come off a gen to pick them up.
Yes, the killer should have to accept the survivor will simply get back up on their own despite the killer making the smart play for that situation because… why? How is it fair to punish literally making the intelligent call? Someone should have to come pick them up, they should not be given a self pickup because they got downed near someone else/an unhookable area/etc.
I don't disagree that the slugging changes are inherently anti-snowball, like I think we can all agree that's what they are but I think you should've mentioned this in your original example because all I got from your initial argument was
"I down someone quickly and get punished if I also go for another person" which is why I responded in the way that I did. If you had mentioned the usage of limited time powers/perks then I'd have gotten your argument a bit better.
Like I said I'm not fully onboard with the changes either but I think there's potential for healthy changes in here somewhere.
Slugging as a primary decision should not be the intelligent decision. It is not desirable. Choosing to slug vs. hooking should be a meaningful risk reward decision, not a perk check.
I mean the one person already there is taking a health state. Survivors shouldn't be forced into a lose lose situation because one person got downed. Look, I may be a little bias here as I basically only play survivor but I feel like this is going to bring in more interactive gameplay and force the killer into chasing more. Which is the fun part of the game.
The point is there’s a large amount of varying situations why slugging is a good call, and a basekit self recovery is the wrong way to go about BM situations like idiots slugging people to death out of spite.
??? It is a risk reward. You are literally giving up a potential hook in order to immediately go for more chases. It’s not a perk check, someone should come pick them up.
Again I don't disagree, I typically slug survivors who I haven't hooked yet because they're a waste of time
I'm still probably going to do this, but I'll be punished more for it in some instances but them being out of commission for a bit while I focus on someone else is worth more than the transport and hook time. Probably.
And on the first point (not the second one about limited duration examples), it basically puts the killer into a scenario where either they have to willingly let survivors that grouped up run away, or just basically default to giving up the first down if the survivor is decent, because even a good chase versus a decent survivor will be like 30s. I think a better way to deal with trolls intentionally bleeding people to death would be to have a situation specifically for everyone alive being downed.
The only problem is that killer is a snowball role you have to build pressure by downing hooking and injuries making it so that another survivor has to come help and bring down the efficiency. In this situation the killer is losing all the pressure they build by down one survivor and then going into a chase. If they can't pick the survivor up for x reason there has to be a trade off which is normally the survivor in chase loses a health state or someone comes off a gen and they lose gen pressure but now the optimal play is probably to just eat the pallet stun and at least get rid of the pallet. So it's good job you downed someone and your reward is a destroyed pallet.
Basically, disabling a survivor for 45 seconds and then dowicng a survivor who is closer to death in 30 seconds while that survivor is not repairing generators IS not a punishment. It is a reward. You made 1 survivor do nothing for 45 seconds and got a hook state on a more desirable target in that time. It's not like you can't also get both, either. It's absolutely possible that you might slug to chase an injured person, get them down in 15 seconds and hook both. Which puts you in a scenario where you are actually dangerously close to outright winning by a last man standing situation and puts the survivors in a losing battle even if they recover from the last man standing.
Even if someone has to come get someone off the floor. Thats about the same amount of pressure as a 45 second self recover.
If one dude recovers for 10 seconds while another travels to him. Then heals him up to injured in 11 seconds. Thats 44 seconds of survivor time wasted. The reality is a dude picking himself up in 45 seconds is not significantly worse pressure than being picked up by someone else.
If he recovers for 20 seconds, then someone starts travelling and gets to him 10 seconds later. The person on the floor will be full recover by the time the rescuer reaches, and at that point pick up only takes a second, you've only wasted 40 seconds of survivor time.
The only time slugging was significantly valuable was if more than 1 person would stop what theyre doing to rescue a slug, which is a solo queue problem. Or if someone would get left on the floor at full recover for a long period of time stuck doing nothing because no one is coming to save them, which is also a solo queue problem.
Okay you are playing survivor and hes got you down, no imagine putting the keyboard down and just sitting there cause he closed the hatch and he isnt killing you instead he just dancing the night away while you just have to watch the timer go by. Now imagine you are a parent and you just got the kids to bed and you only have like a hour to play, cause you got to work in the morning. Yeah im happy with this patch already.
And all that still ends up with the result of rewarding them for going down and a teammate not having to bother picking them up, meaning your two chases and downs got half undone. That is literally punishing good play.
You do realize there are ways to solve spite like that, that don’t involve breaking the rest of the game too right?
Think you mean "with the grain" there, chief.
Yeah but every other suggestion has a list of downsides too so I got to work with what I got.
Hardly, You get a health state from an uninjured survivor. You smack the other one, as they run off you turn and pick up the downed survivor. Do you really think its fair you get to pull another 2 people off objectives because you got one down?
I’m going to break some news to you. Any hook or down pulls two people off. One to go pick them up or unhook them, and the other now being chased. Yes, that is completely fair.
Ah, the "dad gamer" argument.
Not downsides that are literally about breaking every single aspect of strategy.
Forcing a survivor to spend 45 seconds doing nothing is not a bad thing. It's not a punishment for good play if they stand up. There is value to allowing a survivor briefly escape death if the result is they spend less time repairing generators. It's not like every time you choose to abandon a chase after getting an injury, you are playing badly or "getting outplayed." Occasionally, the smart thing to do is let a survivor go and get them at a later time when they are a smarter target for you. Just because what you are doing isn't making the little hook meter on your HUD go up ASAP doesn't mean it's not a play that won't win you the game in a long run.
But they're talking about 3 people being pulled off objectives now. Not 2. One person downed, the other person in chase and another one to go pick them up. If you risk greeding a health state off another survivor, there needs to be a downside to it. Right now its just free pressure to put someone into the dying state and go after someone else.
Don't get me wrong though. I think the unbreakable/boon:xp timing needs to be looked at. Which is the entire point of putting it on the PTB.
The downside is you are literally giving up a potential hook state.
Not if you pick them up and put them on the hook.
Which gives time for the other survivors in the area to run away. Which is literally a stupid play on the part of the killer.
I'm ecstatic about the new changes. Unbreakable needs a nerf but everything else is fine and imo, people are as always being dramatic about anything new.
"Well, but the time I chase my 2nd person and slug them, the first one is back up" Solution: hook them and don't leave them on the ground unless they're under a pallet and you're chasing someone away OR there's someone close by with a flashlight. And 45 seconds is plenty of time to do either of those. you don't NEED to have a 2nd person on the ground to pick up your first one
Yes just give the other survivors time to make up for positioning misplay and run away instead of punishing that mistake and then getting punished yourself for making the actual smart call.
Why shouldn't survivors be able to get back up? That's the current status quo, no reason to believe its the right status quo (and lots of reasons that people keep bringing up about why its bad). Why is it that the Killer should have two options that demand someone from the rest of the team help out (hook and down)?
Also the idea that the Killer is being punished is strange. Just because the elements of a game change and a certain strategy becomes less useful is not a punishment, it's just a change of how the game works. What once was an intelligent play is no longer the correct play, that doesn't mean there still isn't a correct play.
Hooking and downing are distinct trade offs. One takes way more time and gives time for others to run away, in return for a hook state which can be undone in 1s (unhook time). The other saves way more time and lets you immediately pressure others, in return for potentially giving up 1 of the 3 hookstates needed to actually kill that person. You are literally asking for the killer to be put into a lose-lose where they make the smart play and chase someone nearby and thus lose the down for no good reason, or they hook and give a free escape to the rest which is stupid.
Your assuming the uninjured survivor is right in your face which is a bad play for the survivor. A smart survivor is going to show themselves at a decent distance out of your reach but close enough to make the save now that they know that UB is basekit. Before they might hide and go for the pallet save but they might get found and take a hit it's smarter now to let the killer know your there so they can either chase you and let the survivor pick themselves up or pick them up and eat the pallet/flashlight save.
There's actually quite a fee situation that the survivors can force to make slugging necessary to maintain pressure.
It's not a lose-lose.
Right now, as you said, you have the choice for a likely hook or pressure others with the risk that the survivor is brought back up.
That is still true the risk is just higher. There is less time chase/pressure, absolutely. By why is that wrong?
Maybe the numbers as listed unbalance the game. That's why its being tested. It's adding a new element to the game, more decisions, more strategy, not less.