crogers271
crogers271
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@Gary_Coleman said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159919#Comment_3159919
But alas, rage quitting is also a part of the game. Its been a part of every online game, since the year 2000.
Wait, what happened in 2000? Did people not know how to quit out of Quake when it wasn't going their way :)?
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I mean...
If the survivors were able to get 5 gens done
And the gate 99
And they take the risk to come back for the survivor
And they manage to get the survivor off the hook
And enough survivors are left to body block you without concern
And you just so happen to not have anything to make them exposed
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Kinda sounds like they've done more to earn the escape than you have a kill in that situation.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3156755#Comment_3156755
Would you be fine to be told to do that every trial else you'd be a sweaty tryhard for trying to escape nonetheless?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3156927#Comment_3156927
1. You're mixing up objectives and goals. Do 5 gens (5/7), open a gate (6/7), exit (7/7) to escape (goal).
You're trying to draw a distinction based on two words that can be used in the same way.
The fact is that if all survivors stopped at the 5th gen, none of them would be considered to have won. If a killer just stopped at the 3rd kill they won 3 against the survivors.
But we're not talking about just stopping, we're talking about how the game plays out (my second point). From 5 gens to escape you have a relatively quick game where the killer has a decent shot at getting one survivor (more if they are altruistic). At two survivors the killer trying to slug it out is a slow, boring game where the survivors are already extremely mismatched.
Your initial post was trying to show that this was just a bias thing, but you are ignoring all of the reasons why these are two very different situations.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3156685#Comment_3156685
Im not familiar with the Saying "6 ways to sunday", but i guess you mean "many".
- 3/4 kills = 75% progress to the goal of 4 kills
- 5gens powered, only need to open gate and then escape, 5/7 objectives = ~71%
I was just pointing out that if you only agree to one of those stupid statements you're either favoring killer or survivor like a "biased x main". Even if youre neither.
2 differences.
1: Each survivors if measured on whether they escape or not. If they haven't escaped they've accomplished 0% of their objective. On the other hand the difference for a killer is between 75% and a 100% (or being we're talking about a hatch here, a 3 point win or a 4 point win).
2: If the end game of the survivors to accomplish the last 25% of their goal felt like it took as long as the rest of the game and just involved staring at the screen not doing anything, yeah, I'd complain about it too.
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You're talking about survivors and killers as if they are two different groups of humans. Look at human nature. Games aren't fun if you don't have some chance to win. On the killer side, even if you have an bad early game, you can still pull out some portion of a victory. The gens narrow down to 3 and then you only have 2 doors to defend. The survivors can play a near perfect game for 95% of it and then still lose someone at the end (or if you don't want to look at it as a team, you can play a near perfect game and get caught right at the end). On the other hand, if the early game goes well for the killer, the survivors chances drop astronomically.
Imagine if there was a rule that if survivors got two gens done before a killer got a hook, new gens would spawn to reward them for how well they are winning. Killers would quit because the chance of a win would be impossible. People can be a good sport and play out the end of a losing game from time to time, but if that is a frequent occurrence they are going to stop entirely.
Also, even if a hatch was considered a win (which I think is absurd), the survivors didn't win. You killed three of them. To act like it is survivor sided ignored the fact that it can only apply to 25% of the people on that side.
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So I don't really have any thoughts on the original post, except it is kind of strange to criticize people who have families and have to work. Do you think a game could survive without people like that?
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@emodeshort said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3152500#Comment_3152500
Im sorry, but i have to disagree with everything you said here. Killer need that information bc as a killer you need to know where to go at all times. Time is precious when you are playing killer, you can literally lose a match bc you got stuck for half a second in a box, the survivor reached a window and the chase that was a guaranteed down now is extended for who nows how much time. In a game that lasts 10 minutes, a killer has 10 minutes and survivors have 40. I'm not saying survivor is easy, when i play survivior is mostly solo, and i know how frustrating solo teamates are. As a survivor, you only need to worry for one generator at a time, as a killer, you need to worry about all of them. You said you tend to priorize a area and ignore the other gens, and it is a great strategy, but smart survivors know how to take advantage out of that, SPECIALLY if the have circle of healing or any other way of healing themselfs
Sure, time is precious, but that all goes to presumptions built into the games. Most killers boil down to making strategic decisions about map control and playing a guessing game with survivors in chases. Survivors have a much higher quantity of things to learn (Carth covered them well in a post here) and a mistake by a survivor gives away a lot more than a killer mistake (unless you are playing a high ranked SWF team with coordination, which everyone seems to come back to as the balance measure).
@Adjatha said:
The early game favors the killer because there is a minimum threshold survivors need to reach to be competent and the game doesn't have a bot system to actually teach you what you need to know (the updated tutorial is still woefully lacking in basic, core concepts).
Once survivors understand the rules of the game, it is wildly in favor of survivors. 4 escapes are incredibly common, killer perks get overwritten by survivor perks across the board, and more than half of the killer options struggle to get even a single kill. And that just gets worse and worse the higher up in the skill ladder you go, until there's really only Nurse and Blight who can compete at the highest level.
The issue is that a killer's task revolves 100% around survivors, whose skill increases over time. So the whole game gets harder as you play more.
Survivors, on the other hand, have basic tasks which are the exact same no matter what level you're playing at. Skill checks never get harder, gens never get harder, locating spawns, navigating stages, memorizing pallets/loops... on and on. Once you know it, it doesn't get any harder. The ONLY part of the game that gets more difficult for survivors is the chase, which only occupies a single survivor at a time. The rest of the team breezes through elements that used to be hard but have become trivial.
One thing I find interesting as a balance thing, and you talk about survivors being able to override perks, is not only are there players who have 100s/1000s of hours of practice on me, but they also get the advantage of mixing and matching perks to make ideal skill set. I get that it is baked in to keep players for long periods of time, but it's just a mismatch on so many levels.
@Hawk81584 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3152956#Comment_3152956
problem is people dont stick around that long to find out because its a god awful experience.......you do realize that right?
This will probably be me. I got up to 30 hours relatively quick, partially because I was taking notes and tracking things, but since then my hours have slowed to a crawl. Survivor is a massacre, killer is generally easy and not my preference, and the response seems to be 'just give it a few hundred more hours'.
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@ad19970 said:
It's not killer sided. Just no. And some of these claims you make after 30 hours is pretty ridiculous actually, lmao.
Let's be honest, it's not impossible for some people to be better at a game when they start, than most people are when they start a game. So maybe that's the case with you. I have a friend that has played the game for like 50 hours and can loop killers better than survivors with 100 hours or more.
DBD is however also known to be more killer sided, the lower in rank you go.
A big problem is that there are far more little extra aspects and nuances that survivors must learn and understand to play efficiently, than killers. As killer, you just play, and there isn't too much you need to learn to play effectively, at least at lower ranks. Obviously you want to get better at chases, and map pressure, but still. With survivor, instinctively you would think you want to play very careful, and avoid the killer at any cost. Playing afraid pretty much. But that is not effective at all.
It's hard to tell what exactly is the problem, but the game surely takes longer for surviors to learn how to play effectively. And I am talking about al the things you need to know in each role, not the actual gameplay, and mechanical skill. I guess it's maybe because it's the survivors job to not only evade and be chased by the killer, but also to get the objective going and done.
As a killer it feels like playing a child in basketball. You have to intentionally screw up sometimes to create the appearance that its actually competitive. As a survivor it feels like everyone on the team needs a perfect. Every mistake, missed skill check, mistimed vault/pallet, bad communication, has serious repercussions.
DbD has survived for a long time. It's a fun game with a cool theme. But a crazy design that things are so easy for the killer from the beginning while the survivors need to master multiple skills and, ideally, play in a group with chat.
This one here is pretty crazy to lmao. You think you can make such judgements just based on 30 hour gameplay? What you call "handholding", in every case, is just vital information for killers. You really think people would still play killer if they couldn't see the aura of the main objective they have to defend, or if they couldn't see scratchmarks of survivors, so that survivors could just lose the killer all the time? What on earth?
Also, in general, killer mistakes are more punishing than survivor mistakes. If the survivor team is actually doin gens, that is.
Do you have to remember where the generators are? Nope.
Hooks? Nope, we'll tell you that.
Skills checks? Of course not.
Did something go wrong and you aren't sure where the noise came from? Oh, here's a visual icon as well.
Have trouble finding hiding survivors? Here are some perks that let you see them. Hah, of course we won't let the survivors know you have them.
Like I just said. This here has nothing to do with handholding, it's just vital information for killers to be able to actually have a chance to find and pressure survivors. You can not actually believe the game would be fine without this information, right?
Chases are another example of this. After you hit a survivor they get a speed boost. Cool, you can still run them down.
Oh, you lost sight of them? No problem, scratch marks.
No scratch marks? Don't worry, blood trail.
Oh, can't see the blood? We got you, we'll have them wine so loud you can't help but find them.
This I also find quite baffling. I really hope this post here is even genuine. But if it is, you probably don't realise that this game is balanced around survivors wasting time of the killer during chases, so other survivors can do gens. It's not balanced around survivors being able to lose the killer easily. If survivors could do that, the game would be pretty broken. The claim of "you can just run them down" is not really accurate, because you actually have to down them in chase, and survivors have defenses they can work with to not go down.
To be fair, this also might be one of the reasons why killers are stronger at low ranks. In the end, at first place, the chase is dictated by the survivor. Because they are the ones running away, and have to use defenses against the killer. That's when killer skill comes in to play, with which they can then try to outplay the survivors. But if a survivor has no clue at all on how to loop and waste a killers time in chase, then the killer doesn't really need skill to begin with to down them.
I guess tutorials are one area where the game is still lacking big time. The devs really need to add better tutorials that properly teach survivors how to play more effectively to win matches.
Let's go through the points.
1: Players get better over time.
Sure, that should be expected, but that's one of the reasons I posted data as a new player. I gave an equal spread to survivor and killer. Killer takes a couple games to get the hang of and suddenly you are on a run stomping survivors. Survivor has a wide array of elements to learn plus you need to hope for team synergy.
2: DbD is known to be more killer sided the lower in rank you go.
A couple people have had this response. Which amounts to: 'everything you say is true, but it changes if you are playing 1000+ hours with a dedicated team'. You actually spend three paragraphs saying my post is correct and expected for new players.
Some responders have been open about the game being balanced around top players team playing. That actually seems to be one of the most agreed points in this thread; if you want to win as a survivor, get a ton of hours in and SWF. If you want a win as a killer, click the play as killer button, and you will win until you have a ton of hours in.
3: You think you can make judgements just based on 30 hours of gameplay?
The 30 hours of gameplay is the point. I've played very little. Killer is ridiculously straight forward (which you even point out), survivors have a lot to learn/master.
4: This has nothing to do with handholding, its just vital information for killers-
Finding gens is vital for survivors. Knowing the location of the killer is vital for survivors. Knowing where your team is is vital for survivors. But, unless you burn perks, none of that is shown in bright colors; its things that need to be learned off sound ques, remembering spots on the map as you run around, and harder to pick up visual signals.
So yes, I'd call that handholding.
That's also something that could be fine. Just say: for game balance, the killer role needs to be much easier than the survivor. That would probably be an ego hit to killer mains, but it seems to be true.
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One other note to add, I don't think I'm anywhere close to a good killer. I mistime swings, run into walls, and forget about my special power. Even with all of that, and even if I hit a good team, I still feel like its competitive. As a survivor the game frequently turns into a rout.
@AshInTheTallGrass said:
I agree that your experience is pretty normal for a new player. I'm sure you've seen lots of comments here cautioning you to wait until you gain more hours, face different play styles, perks, abilities, etc. Rather than go further into that, I'll request this.
Make a few more posts on here, giving updates, as you progress. Your perspectives are likely to change and get more finetuned. You might feel certain Killer perks/add-ons are incredibly OPl, or maybe that some maps are too broken for certain Killers to be competitive. Just keep playing, and then update.
So a couple observations after some more hours as killer:
1: Time of day seems to be critical for the chances of hitting a team working together and/or I've just hit the level were that is becoming common.
2: I started playing trying to defend all of the gens from the get go. One of the strategy decisions I think is obvious for the killer is to ignore a few of the gens. The survivors need five, don't waste time chasing down the far off gens, let them come to a smaller area of the map that you control. I've tried to play as if I have to defend all the gens which makes it more challenging.
3: Finishing chases. If I run into a survivor clearly trying to loop me away from the gens, I ignore them. Go back and chase the survivors away from the gens. Perhaps something I realized early that maybe helped me as killer is that time is really on my side. If they're not working on gens, I'm winning. They run out of items, pallets, lives, etc. while I remain strong.
Anyway, instead of drawing out matches, I've committed more to finishing chases. Good for bloodpoints, not as good for 4ks.
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Some responses:
@White_Owl said:
So I'm 30 hours into DbD
I know it's hard to believe, but 30 hours are nothing in this game. You're playing with the noobest noobs you can get, and this game is incredibly tough for new survivors. When survivors actually know what they are doing they are much harder to kill than you expect.
In conclusion, it's early for you to have an idea of the balance of the game.
That's kind of my point. At 30 hours I realize I'm incredibly new. It's a strange game design that makes one side really easy and the other incredibly hard for new players (especially when we're defining new in the hundreds of hours).
@JakeCannon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/342870/noob-thoughts-the-balance-is-a-joke-right
You'll learn just how wrong you are as you get more hours in against a good SWF team. Sure you do get notifications, and scratch marks etc but it's 1 person against 4. If the 4 are good,get a good map, and know how to counter whichever killer you're using you'll quickly see how it's not so " kiLleR siDed"
This goes to my first anticipated response. Is the game meant to be balanced against playing 4 SWF with 1000s of hours of experience each? Yeah, I should, hopefully, get wrecked; it would be crazy if I wasn't. But if the game is being balanced for killers against experienced teams working together as the default its a massive problem for everyone else not in that category.
-Jay K asked about maps
--Yeah, some maps were definitely easier than others. Not knowing maps, the ones that were in buildings with stories seemed particularly hard as a killer running around trying to find the stairs. However, I didn't use any offerings to try and influence the maps and took the ones that were given to me.
-Starlost talks about it potentially not being genuine:
I don't know what to tell you. I'm not some twitch streamer who records them, I'm just a guy who plays video games and likes hard data. However, your other comments (and others in the thread) basically agree with the assertions I'm making, the beginning of the game is incredibly easy for killers and a slaughter for survivors. Then you go to the response of 'but just wait until you hit a good SWF team'. If that is the presumption of the game that solo Q is a losing effort meant for masochists, sure, I can live with that, but let's be upfront about what we mean when we're talking about balance.