crogers271
crogers271
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@TheVarietyKiller said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4080823#Comment_4080823
seriously? No need for a solution? This combo can do gens in about a minute, and give you enough room for Sprint Burst and Vigil, which are also ridiculous.
Without stakeout it could still be done in the same time, you're just now limiting the playerbase who has access to it to the small percent who can consistently hit great checks at the heightened speed.
The issue is Hyperfocus, a perk that goes from trash to S Tier depending on a player's reflexes/muscle memory. Stakeout is the only thing that evens it out across the playerbase.
If they wanted to nerf Stakeout, which I think isn't really necessary, something like a 25% reduction in the frequency of skill checks would make more sense over completely gutting the perk.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4080407#Comment_4080407
Ah yes, the three god pallets that you can easily chain on every map. We all know those. They definitely exist. You're ignoring reality in favor of a math equation that assumes everyone moves in a straight, mechanical line, and the killer somehow has nothing to help them, while also breaking every (somehow unavoidable) pallet. Most pallets aren't god pallets—most pallets are bad. If someone predrops it and keeps going you just walk around it.You're also ignoring the fact that most killers have some way to hinder your journey on this straight line of perfectly spaced and stellar pallets. Killers have either mobility/catchup/dash (Ghoul, Nurse, Chucky, Spirit), a ranged attack (Deathslinger, Huntress, Plague, Unknown), an antiloop ability (Clown, Doctor, Dredge, Pinhead), or a pallet chewing ability (Oni, Bubba, Micheal, Nemesis), if not a combo of those things (Henry, Billy, Oni, Blight, Singularity, Vecna, Dracula). Plus there's instadowns on many of them. Oh yeah, and popular anti-pallet addons (Legion, Wraith, Wesker). That's not even bringing up perks. And once those pallets are gone, they're gone. You're also ignoring the reality of the maps themselves, like Ormond and Yamaoka, with areas of a bunch of useless rocks and nothing else at all. 70s for a down and all you broke was 3 pallets? If that happens you're bad, terribly outclassed, or you screwed up. You can pretend all this isn't the case, but I know very well that you know what reality looks like in this game.
The problem here is that this type of thing LEADS to killers adapting and using strategies that survivors find unfun.
The pallets were likely put in to help with tunneling, so survivors have resources to slow down the targeted attack. Half the perks killers are complaining about—like Babysitter, DS, and OtR—are anti tunnel perks that have zero effect on you if you aren't looking to double hook. If perks and pallets simply existing has lead to slugging, then slugging needs to be adjusted, not perks and pallets. You shouldn't be able to say you just don't like the proper gameplay and you won't participate in it until you get your way. That shouldn't even be possible.
This is all true, but really only the tip of the iceberg. You're responding to one of the classic 'bad math' posts that exist on forums.
Other issues
Presumes maps are infinite spaces and that the survivor can just go endlessly and/or that the killer never comes from the middle of the map
Presumes pallets are perfectly spread so the survivor always gets to the next one at the perfect time, never too fast (or the equation doesn't work) or too slow (or the survivor gets hit and the equation doesn't work)
Presumes the killer never runs around the pallet, always breaks the pallet
Presumes the killer has no agency to anticipate the survivor route and zone them in a more favorable direction (i.e. the macro game, in this instance one survivors are fine with)
Presumes this pathing can be accomplished without bypassing another teammate who the killer could switch to
Presumes this pathing can always lead to something like a corner and doesn't end up sticking the survivor on a hook in the center of the gens
Ignores that some of the strongest pallets/areas (shack/main) are also were basement is located, creating a risk/reward scenario
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I do like that we went from @Aven_Fallen 's point about most pallets being unsafe to 'well just find 2-3 god pallets'.
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@BongoBoys said:
Its no hot take to say that Escapist class is the most OP of all the classes giving a AOE sprint burst to all Survivors at a press of a button I think this class needs to be reverted to how it was before or we can rework it to something more fair
Rework ideas
Survivors with the class now gain Finesse and resilience
Survivors gain Overcome and Finesse
Escapist stays the same but no longer gives AOE sprint burst
What do you think the class should be changed to?
Its no hot take to say that Escapist class is the most OP of all the classesIt's not a hot take, but I don't think its true. Outside Torchbearer, if I'm in a lobby as a survivor with a bunch of Escapists I usually don't have high hopes for the match.
The class is okay, but given the possibilities of sprinting into the other killer, not having someone in the group who gets hit by the burst / is already exhausted, or playing against killers that don't have that many problems dealing with a sprint burst, I don't think its nearly as strong as people make it out to be.
Kind of dull? Sure. That's a better reason to add variety to it.
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@XolfRiggler said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4079053#Comment_4079053
The intention is for killer and elusive survivors to not interact at all.
So they don't get hit, they don't take damage, so they can't take a hit for others
Maybe that's not practical code wise
Maybe there is another issue I'm not seeing
But I think it should work
So they don't get hit, they don't take damage, so they can't take a hit for othersMaybe that's not practical code wiseCode wise, that shouldn't be an issue at all.
You're calling it Elusive, which is a term they use for other things, which makes it a tad confusing, but fully intangible survivors shouldn't be hard to do.
Maybe there is another issue I'm not seeingWell, BHVR doesn't want to do it is the main sticking point. This idea has been around for a long time and I don't think they've ever entertained it. Even with the anti-tunnel ideas at their most extreme they seem to think that it is an absolute necessity that a killer could tunnel, even if they make it really, really unappealing.
A few reasons why potentially:
1: Worry that survivors would just taunt the killer, chasing them around while being untouchable, ruining game feel
2: The above, but done by a SWF to call out the killer spots (I don't think a huge worry with a reasonable time frame).
3: A belief that tunneling has to remain a core concept of game design.
Me, I don't have a problem with body blocking, but I'd also be fine with them going to this, but this seems to be a no go design for them.
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@XolfRiggler said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4078883#Comment_4078883
I agree, its not easy to do
yes, you don't want to force players to play a certain way, but i think guiding them is good especially for new players
i don't think quadruple mending sounds good at all, i don't understand this point?
also what you said about anti tunnel vs body block, i don't think is relevant if the killer swing literally goes through the elusive survivor it cant do damage to tunnel target and and it cant body block for aggressive play
i think after looking at feedback i would keep something similar to what I said but reduce the length, i'm writing some new patch notes soon to see if i can strike a good balance.
i don't think quadruple mending sounds good at all, i don't understand this point?Sorry, I've been in a bunch of these so I'm trying to summarize arguments in relation to not being able to body block. Basically, making it bodyblocking less viable but still can be hit, requires putting some type of condition or mechanism into the game that makes it less viable. Concrete ideas on how to do that though usually end up sounding silly or have implementation problems (see below).
also what you said about anti tunnel vs body block, i don't think is relevant if the killer swing literally goes through the elusive survivor it cant do damage to tunnel target and and it cant body block for aggressive playCan the killer hit the survivor or not? I'm not sure what you mean by No Collision, but when BHVR has used that term they mean the survivor and killer can run through each other, but the killer can still hit the survivor.
If its the killer can hit the survivor, you still have survivors timing body blocks or one just running on top of the other (because no collision) that cause issues with how DbD (or potentially any game) detects hits, which was one of the things that caused issues in the PTB. Beyond that, for any killer with a range attack the survivor can still, relatively easily, serve as a body block.
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@XolfRiggler said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4078708#Comment_4078708
thanks for all the feedback, also appreciate the compliments
I agree I like smaller changes with tweaks more often
I think they were really onto something with some of the changes they suggested but didn't try tweaking things when it wasn't right, it honestly might not be viable to have any more anti tunnel, but i think we might of known that for sure if they tried some different values on the PTB
I would like to make it so the anti tunnelling can't be used aggressively to bodyblock etc
thanks for all the other notes too, thanks for reading it so thoroughly, i love discussing this stuff
I would like to make it so the anti tunnelling can't be used aggressively to bodyblock etcIt's not easy to do.
Generally, from a game design perspective, you don't want to just direct players on how to play ('you've been unhooked, now you run away'). Ideally, you create a series of pros and cons that are always in flux so that the right decision is never perfectly clear (DbD, again generally, does this really well outside tunneling and is part of the reason for the game's long lifespan).
On top of that, for the sake of new players, adding in new conditions is never great. So putting something like quadruple length mending off a body block basekit BT hit would probably be very confusing.
Additionally (cause there are lots of issues), you have to figure out a way to get the game to determine when a hit is done for anti-tunnel vs bodyblocking. We've seen this with other mechanics (AFK quick detection) that determining player intent can be difficult (or, at a minimum, BHVR isn't great at it).
That's why I think it is has to be a decision that leaves agency to the players. If players have protection after being unhooked (and its silly that there was a time they didn't), well then its up to them how to use it. Alternatively, if you don't want them to body block, take tunneling off the table entirely. I think the 'semi-spirit' state they went with was about the worst way they could address it, but they really wanted to maintain the illusion of killer agency (while making tunneling so unattractive that no one would do it) while getting rid of survivor body blocking off hook.
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@Fenril said:
Thanks for the answers, guys. I wish someone from Behavior could answer as well and help clarify, cause I've searched for a while and haven't found anything about it. Nevertheless, I have reported the streamer and his moderator for directed abuse and harassment towards me. I hope twitch takes the appropriate measures in this case. I had over 20 (out of 70) people accusing me, saying things like they wish I get banned for life, that I'm scum, that I deserve to go to hell and stuff like that. The others were silent or just calling me accomplice as well. It's frightening the power that a streamer has to influence his followers with misinformation. Crazy, really.
I wish someone from Behavior could answer as well and help clarify, cause I've searched for a while and haven't found anything about it.The EULA is relatively clear about what is banable (https://deadbydaylight.com/eula/)
I don't know if you'll get a BHVR answer, they don't seem to like to put the policy anymore in writing than exists in the EULA.
Practically speaking, I can't imagine this being an issue just on the scope of what BHVR would have to look at banning.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4078154#Comment_4078154
Some people just don't understand what making solo more like SWF actually entails.
More like does not mean same as.
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@XolfRiggler said:
9.9.1 | Fake Patch NotesBy XolfRiggler | Last Updated: 12/05/2026
Important
- I genuinely think most of the changes would be healthy for the game
- I really want feedback on any possible issues or what could be improved
- In some case numbers are used to illustrate the concept and may need to be adjusted
- Read the “Not a Dev Note:” for some insight in why I’m suggesting particular changes
Unique Hook Rewards
- Killer Power goes off cooldown/reloads.
- Aura of survivors with less hook states revealed for 10s.
- Speed boost 5% per unique hook for 30s, ends when survivor runs within 20m.
- Generator with most progress loses 5% per unique hook.
- MAYBE regress all gens? Or damage all gens after all 4 survivors hooked.
Tunnelling Reduction
- When a survivor is on hook, survivors can see each other auras
- Survivors gain Elusive for 30s after unhooked
- No Collision
- 20% Haste
- Cannot interact with Items, Lockers & Pallets
- Ends when interacting with Generator, Gate & Killer Item
- Disabled in endgame
- If a survivor is killed before 5 hook states gens permanently increase speed for each remaining gen.
- MAYBE just a flat requirement?
- 5% for each gen remaining, times each dead survivor (could be additive)
- 5 gens 1 dead = 25% (30%) 4 gens 2 dead = 40% (30%) 3 gens 2 dead = 30% (25%) 2 gens 3 dead = 30% (25%) 2 gens 1 dead = 10% (15%)
Slugging Reduction
- Survivors can pick themselves up after 2 minutes(half the bleed out timer)
- Each time a survivor picks themselves up they can pick themselves up 100% quicker
- 1st slug 2 minutes, 2nd slug 1 minute, 3rd slug 30 seconds
- After recovering survivors can pick each other up. MAYBE in deep wounds?
Not a Dev note: I think BHVR had some okay ideas but were poorly executed and didn’t experiment with tweaking anything on PTB, obviously I think it can work.
Killer Updates
The problem with Tunnelling & lesser extent Slugging, is often the best strategy
The problem with that is that it “feels bad”
Not only does it feel bad to be tunnelled out and finish playing before the other players
It also feels bad for the other 3 players that don’t really get to have a chase, or if they do its in a 3v1
IDEALLY each player would get to have a few chases each game
I think the solution is to make tunnelling & slugging viable but less often the best strategy, to do this:
1. Nerfing slugging & tunnelling (but not to the extent tested previously)
2. Buffing unique hooks to a point were they are viable and/or preferred by killers
This could have the side effect of making either killers or survivors weaker then intended
In this case Unique hook rewards could be adjusted, then gen & hook times may need to be adjusted
We need to find a balance where Uniqu hooks are worth it without making games too formulaicNurse
- Remove Aura while charging blinks
- Reduce movement speed to 3.6
- Increase blink recharge speed
Not a Dev Note: Aura reading perks are limited in design due to Nurse, removing aura reading while charging will at least partly help this. The movement speed & blink recharge is to make nurse slower than 4.4 killers while travelling in a straight line and make blinking always necessary to move around the map.
Blight
- Reduce movement speed to 4.4 m/s while power is on cooldown
- Breaking a pallet in power uses 2 additional tokens
- Breaking a pallet while power is on cooldown uses 2 tokens
Not a Dev Note: I think this would be a better nerf than flat reducing movement speed to 4.4 or just losing tokens when breaking pallets, which are the 2 most popular community ideas to nerf Blight. Yes, I know they already nerfed Blight, but this is still a good idea in my opinion.
Huntress
- When throwing final hatchet, play audio cue and remove lullaby
- Move at 4.6 m/s while holding no hatchets
Hag
- Move at 4.6 m/s when no traps are set
- Press secondary action to remove trap at any distance
Not a Dev Note: I think its healthy for each killer to be able to move at 4.6m/s if you would like to see how I'd balance this on other 4.4m/s killers I'd be happy to share. Or if you have your own suggestions, I'd love to see them.
Unknown
- When not looking at Unknown infection slowly increases, when already infected
Not a Dev Note: This may not be needed after just receiving a Buff.
Unknown -rework alternative idea
- When looking at Unknown increase infection, when not infected
- Must look away from Unknown to remove infection
Not a Dev Note: turning this mechanic on its head makes sense with the character and gameplay wise an actual buff, that might effect high MMR players more than low MMR players.
Cannibal
- When increasing chainsaw sweep, you can input to extend the sweep without having to time it perfectly
Not a Dev Note: Maybe not necessary, but it seems like an unnecessary thing to have to watch the UI and try to time, it is more meant a QoL change. Also makes it more beginner friendly which bubba has been historically
Trapper
- Increase number of traps carried to 3
- Some addons should maybe reduce number of traps carried
- Increase size of trap hitbox
- Make more clear the area trapped
- Trapper needs a way to get traps without walking to the edge of the map:
- Option1: Open Locker to get fill trap bag with traps
- Option2: Press secondary action to get trap at any distance
Not a Dev Note: Trapper is overdue for some attention, but is a risky killer to buff, as he could get out of hand easily. Traps should be very clear where is trapped for both sides and traps should either be similar colour to the floor to make in harder to see or made to stand out to make it easier to see to make Trapper more consistent either way and easier to balance in future. The size of the trap and trap hitbox is increased for the same reason.
Items & Offerings- Items & Offerings are now shared between all characters, with the exception of killer addons
- Map Offerings are now 25% and can stack
- Offerings that are for one role have a paired offering with the opposite role
- Killers are now able to bring up to 4 offerings
Not a Dev Note: Having a “shared inventory” will be easier to see what items and offerings you currently have. Map offerings have been problematic in the is being 1 of 5 players being able to decide the map, now all players can have a say but if any player brings a counter offering.
User Interface -Menu- Add possibility to Queue for multiple killer
- Add possibility to Queue for both roles
- Add possibility to Queue for multiple game modes
Not a Dev Note: I’d prefer matchmaking to be more strict and this is one way this could be viable if people “flex”
The idea is if I queue up for 5 killers, I may be great with Wraith and terrible with Trapper so if matchmaking requires a strong killer, it will put me in as Wraith, and if it needs a weaker killer, it will put me in as Trapper.
This would also take the stress on having multiple queues while there are events on.
While providing feedback to the devs what modes, roles, killers people want to play.Rituals
- Change all Quests and Challenges to be “Rituals” to suite the game aesthetic
- Streamline UI for overall rituals completed for Events & Rift Pass
- Streamline UI for Milestone Rituals
Not a Dev Note: UI is unnecessarily clunky and large, lots of times have to scroll when it should be unnecessary
TLDR: Basekit Kindred and BBQ Chilli, heavily incentivise Unique hooks, share Items/Offerings, Nerf Strong Killers, Buff Weak Killers, Allow Queueing for Multiple Roles/Events/Killers, improve Ritual UI
It's been awhile since I've seen the 'fake patch' notes format.
If I was in charge of BHVR, I'd take the path of making more frequent, but smaller changes. That's not how they work, where they seem to like to do things and then just let it go for years, but being we're in the realm of the hypothetical anyway, here goes.
Anti-tunnel: I think the idea of anti-tunnel was one of the most necessary things to do, that they went way overboard on.
My preferred choice would be hiding the unhooks and let that run for awhile.
If that isn't enough, we do the gen progression bonus on losing a survivor. I think this should be more tied to killer progress than survivors, how many hooks have been achieved vs how many gens have been done.
I think on things like Elusive on unhook they should either leave it the way it is, and we accept the possibility of tunneling AND the survivor body blocking, or we go in the opposite direction and make the unhooked survivor a spirit who can neither body block or be tunneled. I think the only way to do it is go all the way on that.
Anti-slug: That would be fine.
I don't remember who I saw suggest it, maybe multiple people, but I like the idea of downed survivors being able to do something like repair gens/cleanse totems at a slower rate. Something that makes the state of being downed have more choices than it does now (make being slugged more interesting and engaging instead of just less frequent, as its very hard to define the game around it not existing).
Nurse: I'd just do the aura remove and then reevaluate (well, I'd rework her entirely, but presuming that's off the table).
Huntress: I don't think she needs a default speed boost at zero hatchets as it reduces the decision making of when to go for a reload. The audio cue, yeah, being we've been getting rid of tedious counting mechanics (i.e. displaying the hook count per survivor) I think that's fine.
Trapper - the 3 default traps, and the idea of some addons reducing the number of carried traps is a good one. I think evening out addonless Trapper and best addon Trapper is a good starting place.
Clarity on the trap zone is also good.
I don't think the area the Trap impact needs to be expanded. If you look at things like Basement Trapper expanding the area could create a huge problem.
-Basement Trapper shows one of the inherent issues with buffing Trapper, once Trapper sets up in a strong position (right now really only possible in the basement) its very hard for anything but a coordinated SWF to do anything about it. If you make creating such zones too easy (larger trap zones, ranged pick ups, etc.) he could be way too strong. I know it seems strange to say that about one of the weakest killers in the game, but if his power was overtuned we're right back in Skull Merchant territory.
I think the picking up of traps is part of his character and just think there should be a basekit way that traps which have never been interacted with will arm themselves (not my idea, but again forget who I saw suggest this). But if it had to be done, lockers over what feels like adding some sort of mystical element to his character.
No opinion on the other killers.
Offerings: Four offerings per killer? I get where this is coming from, but we'd need to rework the offering idea entirely for this to make sense (which I'd be supportive of, but is probably never going to happen).
Multiple killer que: I'd need to know more about how their matchmaking works under the hood. My presumption is that I don't think this would make much of a difference.
UI: no strong feelings, but I like the current more than the proposed, but I liked tomes more than either.
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@Rapid99 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4078476#Comment_4078476
Yes like I said in the OP. I'm speaking about ALL perks in general that are affected by diminishing returns. I brought up gen perks specifically because I already hated how they were nerfed in the first place and have been asking for proper buffs to these perks for God knows how long, that have basically been forgotten after the 3 gen meta and I play killer.
The best way to get more variety in perk usage would be to have more than 4 actually useful perks, especially when we're talking about gen regression perks. The best ones haven't actually changed in years outside of the addition of turn back the clock because they giga nerfed them after 3 gen and then just kinda left them.
I'm speaking about ALL perks in general that are affected by diminishing returns. I brought up gen perks specifically because I already hated how they were nerfed in the first place and have been asking for proper buffs to these perks for God knows how long, that have basically been forgotten after the 3 gen meta and I play killer.Well to go on @cogsturning point more broadly, diminishing returns doesn't actually affect a lot of things even when we look past gen regression. So on the gen rush side a survivor isn't going to run any combo of deja, resilence, prove thyself anymore, but they can still run deja, hyperfocus, built to last, and 1-2-3-4 if they wanted and diminishing returns doesn't effect it.
Basically, and a lot of people pointed this out, stacking the same type of value is kind of a red herring to the problem. Thus you can't just boost CoB or Deja just because they don't directly stack anymore, because they still synergize really well with other perks.
Are there a few perks that might get boosted because of this? Sure, but I really think it will be a slow process because if BHVR had an idea of what they wanted to increase because of diminishing returns, it would have happened at the same time.
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@JesterVittorio said:
Assuming that an anti-slug was ever implemented into dbd via basekit unbreakable at maybe half bleed out, to not ignore the complaints about gens going to fast, what if the trade off was a basekit Deadlock for killers. After every gen, no conditions have to be met the entity just blocked the next most progressed gen for idk 20-30 seconds AND let it either stack with the current perk to either get more value out of a gen being completed OR replace current Deadlock with something along the lines of vigil for killers where perks that effect the entity blocking something extend that time by a percentage?
Slugging is not the answer to the problems of this game but slug matches are becoming more and more common and while I enjoy running no mither not everyone does. Nor does everyone like being bullied by a swf I know. But if the gens are "going too fast" because of survivor efficiency maybe the answer instead could be that the entity slows down the progress?
Looking at the game THEMATICALLY the killer doesnt decide who lives and dies freely, they are supposed to get hooks to feed the entity pain and suffering, that is why at the end of a 4 slug match it would say something like "The entity hungers" A killer that refused to hook and just killed the survivors becomes the entities personal plaything at the end of a trial not the survivors.
Now I know alot of people just dont care about the lore in a asym pvp game, but would this be an acceptable trade off? A permanant entity blocker after every completed gen, for a 1 free time pick up if a survivor has been on the ground a TOTAL of two minutes (not a cumulative amount rather but getting hit then left on the ground with no pick up in sight), between gens this could add a whole hypothetical 2 1/2 extra minutes to search and destroy overall in a game where that much extra time Im sure could help.
This is just a thought from a frustrated survivor main whose wife uninstalled the game AGAIN (thanks jerks) but who also enjoys killer, I dont have alot of the same problems as other killers but I also played killer since 2019 to today.
Im trying to be as fair with this and I dont personally see a basekit Deadlock as something bad for the game, if anything I hear you matches should be longer, there should really just be either more Objectives or a secondary objective the killer could fulfill to not feel so unrewarded. Honestly I dont think the end game mori rewards killers enough. Its just a video to end the game on and its not really rewarding.
Other survivors what would you think of this? Would you see something like this as a fair acceptable trade off and hopeful end to slugging? Or is this just a bad idea?https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/7MLUD9U2JNES/deadlock-nightlight.png
@cogsturning already covered the main points.
This wouldn't be anywhere close to an equivalent exchange. For comparison, take the 3 gen change - the 8 kick limit is very rare outside one dedicated strategy they were trying to get rid of, changing it had no impact on the vast majority of matches. In return killers got an end to gen tapping and a 2.5% increase to their kicks, smaller changes but ones that were present every match.
Given the extreme nature of the anti-slug timers that have been proposed, these rarely would be impacting the match.
Now I'd like to point to a similar survivor strategy, something rare that was unhealthy for the game, but the ones I can think of have already been patched out of the game (without any type of compensation that I can recall). Unhookable builds for example, gone. And that's fine, if something is unhealthy it should not need an exchange, it should just be fixed.
If we were talking about substantially faster stands up from being slugged, then maybe that would be equivalent to base kit Deadlock, but 120 slug timers isn't even close.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077696#Comment_4077696
Imagine every game the survivors have knowledge of the killer's location and their teammates location. No second guessing if someone is going for the save or that they should go.
It's not hard to think what the game would be if every match was like an average swf game.
The advantage for the killer is to create chaos to limit efficiency in gen repair. Solo being like SWF is to give the ability to coordinate. The killer will need something to compensate. We could at least speculate on what that may be.
Imagine every game the survivors have knowledge of the killer's location and their teammates location.So a hypothetical situation that the OP is not presenting and (with killer location thrown in) I don't think I've ever seen and there being no chance of something this extreme happening?
Yeah, it this occurred there would have to be radical changes to other elements of the game (not least of all a whole array of perks, totally changing certain killers, and redesigning maps), but no one is talking about anything approaching this level of change.
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@Mr_K said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076997#Comment_4076997
I understand the why, but I'm asking the how and what would change for either side after this equilibrium between solo and swf had been reached?
We're in complete hypothetical territory already on equilibrium being established and this is asking another hypothetical on top of it, that's why its so difficult to answer.
It depends on how big the change would be to kill rates. If the drop is minute (like 0.25%), probably nothing. If its something like 5%, wide scale buffs to basekit killer mechanics. If some killers drop and not others (say GF compared to Nurse), then those killers who dropped could be buffed in a way that would make them healthier in all situations without changing the killers who remain fine.
This is of course looking only at kill rates, there are other factors that might arise but that's the easiest one to look at.
I think situation 3 is most likely, so we'd need to go killer by killer to discuss what could be changed. But its a hypothetical on top of a hypothetical, so there are lots of presumptions that need to be made and it would be a massive amount of changes to list in a forum post which would require more data than we have access to.
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This is super easy to fix, just do something like:Repair speed penalty lowered to 15-20%Permanent progress per great skill check raised to 3-5%
The issue is that there is actually a pretty huge difference in these numbers. 20 and 3 would probably be an okay, situational thing that could be pretty useful, while 15 and 5 would be so strong that skill check builds in 4 person SWFs would rival Blight winstreaks.
Repair speed penalty removedPermanent progress per great skill check raised to 5%Each player repairing can only contribute 10% permanent progress per boon activation
Which would work a lot better, what we see there is basically a sidegrade to Weaving Spiders—Well a sidegrade to Weaving Spiders isn't great, given that its one of the worst perks in the game.
However, I think this would be stronger than Weaving Spiders by quite a bit. It's now not hard for a duo* to set up 20% on a few gens at the start of the match, dropping various boon activations around, or for a four person to rotate through and knock out the final 40% of a gen and carryon to the next.
The raw progress I think is a far bigger issue than the permanent nature on the value side here.
*If I read the idea correctly, the 10% cap applies to all four survivors, if it was a 10% cap universally it would be a really bad perk.
While the boon is active, great skill checks performed in its radius "lock in" X% of current progress to ensure it can't be regressed even after the boon is snuffed.
I think the great skill check nature of the perk causes far more issues than people realize. Right now as survivors improve at skill checks (something the killer can't do anything about) it provides a fairly minor boost (outside Hyperfocus), however perks that provide progress per great skill check are very hard to balance because survivors hitting 75% vs 40% vs 10% will see radically different worth from the perk (cue cries, this time more justified, about high MMR).
As @cogsturning mentioned it being a boon and permanent are the only real things the perk needs. I think a lot of people were anticipating something that made the progress of gens in the radius permanent. If they kept the idea of the boon affecting the nearest gen instead of a radius (which incidentally I think is a good way to expand the scope and value of boons in design) and doing something like 15% of progress on the gen as permanent (even with a qualifier of something like a max of 0.2 c/s), you now have a good perk design. The survivors have to consider the trade offs of setting up the boon and the killer has to adjust their strategy - it creates multiple options for both sides on how they play around it (dropping the range nature would probably require some indicator to the killer that the perk was in play, and potentially a downside to the survivors of the totem being snuffed depending on the strength of the permanent progress).
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077176#Comment_4077176
To quickly clarify before I disengage here:
"Normal repair speed" here isn't normal for any scenario without the perk, it's just one charge per second. You could achieve that by throwing two more survivors on the gen, or you could achieve it with a toolbox, or whatever else. At that point, yes, you offset the penalty to be repairing at normal speed.
What you're both doing is talking about whether that offsetting is WORTH it, and because you think it isn't, you're concluding I must think it is, even though I've said it probably won't be.My argument, remember, is that it isn't a detriment, not that it's better than doing any other repair speed builds. My position, because I don't like how hard we're drifting away from it, is this:
"The bigger problem with the perk is that it affects your teammates, because the downside can be offset by you if you really wanted to run the perk yourself."
You could achieve that by throwing two more survivors on the gen, or you could achieve it with a toolbox, or whatever else. At that point, yes, you offset the penalty to be repairing at normal speed.You're attaching undue importance to the idea of 'normal'. There's nothing magical about 1 c/s that survivors need to offset. Either you are going from 1 c/s to 0.5 c/s, or 1.5 c/s to 1 c/s.
In either case you are experiencing a severe detriment.
"The bigger problem with the perk is that it affects your teammates, because the downside can be offset byyouif you really wanted to run the perk yourself."Even if we go back to the absolute ideal scenarios for the perk, take the exact same thing and don't use the perk and you are in a better position. Even the best case situations for the perk it would be lucky to break even. The soloq problems is just icing on the cake.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077170#Comment_4077170
…So, alright, I promise this is a good faith question asked calmly, but:
If I'd phrased my rundown up there as "you're repairing at normal speed because of the toolbox", would you be objecting this hard? Because I don't like to accuse but it feels like you're maybe focusing too much on language choice and not the ideas being expressed.
Like, I never claimed the drawback doesn't exist. I laid out a scenario where you could make the perk work with its downside, because you've both offset the repair speed penalty and given yourself more skill checks. I'm making a value judgement based on how you'd use the perk, and just to be clear, my value judgement is "not good but there's a bigger problem than it not being good".
There's no disingenuous optimism here. I think the perk is probably gonna be pretty mediocre. I'm just making that assessment correctly by looking at how the perk would reasonably be used with the parameters we've been given, and I'm also pointing out the bigger problem in it screwing over solo queue teammates.
If I'd phrased my rundown up there as "you're repairing at normal speed because of the toolbox", would you be objecting this hard? Because I don't like to accuse but it feels like you're maybe focusing too much on language choice and not the ideas being expressed.I agree with @Firellius that's its a pretty ridiculous framing.
Like you could say 'just throw three people on the gen and you get back to 1 c/s' (1.05 charges a second I think).That's not offsetting, you aren't repairing at normal speed, because the normal speed you should be repairing with a toolbox (or multiple survivors) is greater than 1 c/s.
Not to mention the toolbox will run out and then you're right back to the 0.5.
I'm just making that assessment correctly by looking at how the perk would reasonably be used with the parameters we've been givenBut its not reasonable because you could do the exact same thing (toolbox+toolbox supporting perks) and achieve a much greater outcome. This isn't like combining Stakeout+Hyperfocus where the two perks give potentially greater value when combined, using a toolbox with Steadfast will get you less value than if you did it without Steadfast.
You have to compare like to like scenarios to evaluate the perk.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077118#Comment_4077118
Aren't most % regression perks total now?
Pain Res, Surge, Eruption, Pop, and I'm pretty sure Turn Back The Clock are all total progression. At this point are there any perks left that do current?
The second point is more about the numbers, which I agree look undertuned.
As for the last part, no, your speed isn't debuffed, it just isn't increased. There is a meaningful difference between those two things.
With the perk as it is in this preview, would it just be better to use a toolbox on its own? Probably, but that's a different question to "are you actively worse off using the perk and toolbox together". Yes, compare to just a toolbox on its own, but then compare to the perk without the toolbox and to base repair speed without either.Aren't most % regression perks total now?Mathematically on the total progress it takes a lot of permanent progress to make an actual difference (I could have been clearer on this one).
20 permanent charges (which would be a massive amount to accumulate via Steadfast) would only reduce the value of Pop by 3 charges/normal seconds. At -50% progress you're losing out on a lot more progress than you need to recover.
The main charge eater then becomes the 0.25 c/s flat rate, and the permanent charges aren't going to matter there unless all the normal progress is regressed.
The second point is more about the numbers, which I agree look undertuned.If they change the numbers, then we can change our discussion, but right now I don't think its close to even 'okay'.
As for the last part, no, your speed isn't debuffed, it just isn't increased. There is a meaningful difference between those two things.There's really not that much. In both situations the perk has debuffed your speed from what it would have been if not for the perk.
To evaluate a perk we should try and minimize as many variable as possible, thus keeping the toolbox true in both scenarios. Because if we start imagining toolbox vs non-toolbox well then we have to start asking what the survivor has in the non-toolbox scenario (i.e. a medkit) to make a meaningful comparison.
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@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077098#Comment_4077098
I appreciate the detail. I'll be passing feedback along to the team, so context like this helps characterize what folks are feeling.
Out of interest, if you had to point to one aspect of this perk that feels like it'd cause the most friction (i.e. extending the effect to other Survivors via boon; the time investment needed to get value; the speed compensation), what is it?
I mean I want to answer 'everything'.
The primary is the gen debuff. Math wise it is really difficult to come up with a situation where going this much slower on a gen is not just worse, but far worse.
Secondary, that survivors have to set up a boon to do it makes it more absurd. There's a reason this is being compared to Invocations - BHVR has designed a perk that survivors can spend time on to then give the killer an advantage.
Third, being able to force it on other survivors is just awful. It's a perk that not only has potential just in a SWF, its outright detrimental to soloq.
Fourth, the progress gained is inconsequential. You have to craft some pretty extreme scenarios to get 1%'s on great skill checks to actually have an impact.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077104#Comment_4077104
I'm not sure I agree that permanent progress is only useful if the regression eats away all the normal progress, that's just not really how this mechanic works?
Taking charges off the top of a gen is important because afterwards, any % regression the killer applies will represent less survivor repair time to undo, that's the major strength of doing it this way. That's why it's helpful for contested gens, all regression will just be flat less effective on it.
So, set up the boon and use a toolbox + something like One-Two-Three-Four or Deadline if you're feeling fancy, your repair speed isn't debuffed because you're using the toolbox to offset it and you're getting more skillchecks from both the toolbox and whatever else you decided to bring. From that point every great skill check weakens regression on that generator, which is useful if it's part of a three-gen the killer might want to try and pressure you away from, or it's a central gen the killer would want to try and protect.
Now I'll stop and repeat here, I don't think this perk is going to be very good and I do think it should probably get changes. My point is that THIS is the use case, so THIS is what should be discussed, and then additionally the main concern with the perk outside of it just maybe not being that good is that your teammates might screw you over with it.
Gut instinct, just seeing it on paper and not being able to test, it should probably give greater charges off the generator for every great skill check and should probably have less of a repair speed penalty, maybe 25-30% or something. Mostly though, I don't know how to fix it screwing over solo queue teammates, which is I think what we should be focusing on a bit more.
Setting that aside, the basic premise of the perk does function, it just looks like it has kinda low numbers. The basic premise of "downside you compensate for and upside of weakening regression" seems fine on paper to me, I'd just not use it.Taking charges off the top of a gen is important because afterwards, any % regression the killer applies will represent less survivor repair time to undo1: We don't have many perks that are doing damage based on % complete anymore. We're looking at much more frequent flat rates.
2: Even to the extent they do, the progress you lost by going 50% slower is going to far eclipse the minor adjustment from from having a few less percent applied to the killer's regression event. There's not a killer perk in the game that's going to make 50 charges worse than 10 permanent and 20 regular.
your repair speed isn't debuffed because you're using the toolbox to offset itNo.
Your repair speed is absolutely debuffed because you could just be running the toolbox without the boon. You have to compare like scenarios.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4077090#Comment_4077090
As with all permanent progress options, I think it's meant to be used for contested gens, because it lessens how much the killer can regress it.
Obviously in all scenarios you'd rather have a gen finished than partially done, but if finishing it is going to be a longer process because the killer can effectively pressure it, permanent charge reduction is a useful effect.
Don't get me wrong, I'd personally never use this perk, but there's a world of difference between it having only niche uses and it being a perk that benefits the killer more than the survivor.
The thing I keep returning to is that if you just bring a toolbox, you have a perk that - after setting it up - you get permanent progression for great skill checks, and I can certainly think of ways that effect would be useful. The bigger concern for me is if my teammates run it and screw me over as a result.
As with all permanent progress options, I think it's meant to be used for contested gens, because it lessens how much the killer can regress it.Obviously in all scenarios you'd rather have a gen finished than partially done, but if finishing it is going to be a longer process because the killer can effectively pressure it, permanent charge reduction is a useful effect.Except this creates a few issues all on its own -
If the killer is coming back and pushing the survivor off, Hyperfocus no longer becomes viable for more skill checks, so we're dropping the rate.
Second if the gen is highly contested, that means the survivors are going to be frequently coming back to it, meaning they'll stop the regression well before it ever gets to the permanent progress (especially if we compare it to the larger value they could have achieved and the time spent setting up the boon). Survivors base progression will out pace regression, slowing the base progression is making the killer's life easier.
Third, if this is a gen that is being that highly fought over, with the survivors rushing in, retreating, etc. the killer is going to cap out on gen kicks long before the survivors make meaningful progress with the permanent progress.
Fourth, even in the scenario where the survivors are totally chased off the gen, have to do a mass reset, you've likely saved at best a few permanent charges which required massive perk investment and coordination.
And again, even this ideal situation requires a massive build investment and getting an ideal boon spawn (that you can't unboon, so if the killer sees what is going on can just stop playing defense your gen time is now doubled).
Again, this is the best case, not just a coordinated SWF, but a trial where the random spawns and how the killer behaves lines up just right.
The big issue is that permanent progress only matters if gen regression eats away all the normal progress (missing an opportunity to complete the gen is the other scenario). By slowing the normal progress you're actually giving the killer less progress that they need to regress (we haven't even got into the idea that this means the killer has to kick the gen less frequently).
and I can certainly think of ways that effect would be usefulThen go ahead and lay them out. I'm having to imagine some pretty outlandish scenarios to make the perk even break even, and the majority of cases its a downright detriment.
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@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/466953/the-draft-for-boon-steadfast-sucks
Hey there! You mention not liking this perk from a values and conceptual POV. Would you be able to elaborate on what specifically you're not liking about it?
Um, its a killer perk?
Literally I was a expecting this morning to see someone from BHVR admit there was a typo in the perk release, that's how bad it is.
I'd really like to know a situation where BHVR thinks this perk is actually beneficial to the survivors. If you took the same design and made it a killer Hex perk it would be closer to being usable in the game.
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No one really knows. I think everyone I've ever seen comment on this, pro or anti abandon, agrees that in this situation the killer should be treated as a win. It's also uncertain whether its just how its displayed in the stats screen or MMR (past comments from mods have given different takes).
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@jesterkind said:
I think people aren't really evaluating Steadfast correctly, though that's not to say it's a good design.
Steadfast is a perk that only affects one generator, provides a reasonably worthwhile benefit (especially if the booning time is offset by other perks), and only has a single numerical downside to repair speed. To me, that's a perk that you would use by pairing it with things that both boost its upside and decrease its downside… both of which are covered for by just running a toolbox alongside it.
If you're in a SWF and can coordinate, you could also have someone running One-Two-Three-Four, and anyone running it can use Stake Out if they're not confident in hitting greats (like me ever since swapping to controller…), so on and so forth. It's not a perk you'd run on its own, which is fine, we have somewhere around 170 perks for survivor in the game right now, it's okay if someone of them are built around synergies instead of standalone value.The problem with this perk isn't that it's a worthless boon with no upsides that functions as a killer perk… the problem is that your clueless solo queue teammate is gonna set it up willy-nilly without having prepared for it and without you having had a chance to prepare for it either.
With THAT in mind I hope it gets some serious adjustments before it hits live servers, because that's going to be extremely annoying to deal with.
The rest of the perks seem neat. Both of the other survivor perks are ones I'd actually run and that I think are much healthier in design, and the killer perks vary a bit but don't seem too problematic. I don't really get why you'd run this particular killer OoO when we already have Deerstalker, and the regression one seems only okay, but I quite like the Hex, that'll be really nice for handling exhaustion perks in the early game.
I think, even if we imagine the absolute best possible circumstance for the survivors, its still going to help the killer more than the survivors.
Let's take the best case - running perks to get more skill checks, actually having a totem spawn near the gen that is desired to be worked on, and a SWF of course.
Let's say a survivor works on that generator for 40 seconds and they get an absurd 15 skill checks during that period and they hit greats on all of them. They now have 15 permanent charges and 20 normal charges*.
Now let's say the boon is not in place - they would have 55 charges*.
*both scenarios would also have the benefits of any toolbox / hyperfocus, but it would be the same for both I believe
I'd rather have 55 charges over 35, how frequently are gens getting reduced to 0? Especially if you consider with the toolbox/hyperfocus they might just finish the gen.
This is on top of that if the survivor instead of doing the boon they just on the generator it would already be finished and could be using other perks. Its literally hurting the survivors more than helping, and this is imagining the absolute best scenario. The far more realistic scenarios would be even more tilted as a Sandbag perk.
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Lay Waste - fine
Under Your Thumb - Pure guesswork perk, I hate these designs, but its what DbD is leaning into
Vigilance - Easy tunnel, you don't even have to rush back to the gen. Going to really miss old Off the Record.
Steadfast - Lol, what? Are we trying to make the Invocations feel better by outdoing them with perks that are actually disadvantages?
Salvation's Cry - Like a reverse bond. Pretty bad.
Fruits of Your Labor - the one seems pretty strong.
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Like a lot of others, 10 seconds is a bit silly, but it absolutely should be buffed. Since the end of the anti-tunnel idea and the return to the idea 'guess the right perk', they should just lean into it. If the survivor guesses right on the killer strategy (tunnel), then the reward should be massive.
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@Valuetown said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076532#Comment_4076532
Goalposts aren't moving when there was no consensus on accepted criteria.
On top of that:
Saying that a source isn't reliable isn't moving the goalposts, that's just normal discussion.
Also a 50% ER does not disprove your earlier statement (so much easier) when people have a 70%+ KR.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076373#Comment_4076373
I know I'm repeating myself here, but it's not JUST the activation requirement they're talking about here. It's the activation requirement FOR THAT EFFECT.
There are not just similar perks on the killer side, there are similar survivor perks too. I gave a list a little further back - Kindred, Do No Harm, Low Profile, Desperate Measures, and Self Preservation all have close enough to the same activation requirement to be compared in this context, and none of those seem to be on the chopping block.
Similarly, there are survivor perks which have the same EFFECT, and they all require more from the player: Specialist requires chest searching and Weaving Spiders requires doing an Invocation.I obviously can't speak for BHVR's internal conversations but what they've said to us is fairly logically consistent. Fast Track gave permanent generator progress, and required nothing but the opponent to be playing the game for it. Other perks that give permanent progress require more, and other perks that require just the opponent playing the game give less, or at least less direct benefits.
That's why it wasn't just nerfed. They're talking about the effect and activation combined.I know I'm repeating myself here, but it's not JUST the activation requirement they're talking about here. It's the activation requirement FOR THAT EFFECT.We probably both feel like we're repeating ourselves, but here goes.
Yes, for that effect, but they didn't modify the effect. Old, old Fast Track at 1% per token was too weak, let's presume BHVR thinks old Fast Track at 2% permanent per token was too strong, well then they should test out a middle ground. But they didn't change the 'effect', they changed the activation.
There are not just similar perks on the killer side, there are similarsurvivorperks too.I don't think anyone disagrees with that, it's just the way the discussions have gone that tend to turn this into a 'this would never exist on the killer side' that leads to a focus on the killer perks. Yes, its a pretty normal game element.
Other perks that give permanent progress require more, and other perks that require just the opponent playing the game give less, or at least less direct benefits.That's why it wasn't just nerfed. They're talking about the effect and activation combined.I don't think that follows. One of the easy ways they could have nerfed it was by removing the permanent effect. Its not like there was a rule that the perk had to be permanent progress.
There are other ways that the perk could have been nerfed to make the reward more commiserate for what the survivors were doing, but they went in a different direction. Which again, by itself wouldn't really be an issue, except how they've phrased things here and before really seems like they are knee jerk responding instead of making an informed decision.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076359#Comment_4076359
To respond to a couple of those-
I don't think we want to dissuade BHVR away from actually monitoring perks before making decisions, I think completely divorced from this conversation about Fast Track there are plenty of reasons to monitor and assess how something is actually performing in the live environment, not just providing too-good results.
Again, I don't personally think Fast Track was a huge problem, but I do think the process of monitoring how and when a perk is used once it hits live is important.For the second part, again, I think it's not just that it provided too much permanent progress in a vacuum, I think it provided too much permanent progress for the activation condition it had, in BHVR's eyes. Compare it to something like Specialist or Weaving Spiders, those perks take a lot more than Fast Track did.
They could've taken it back to non-permanent progress…. but that version of the perk was bad, so some rework is probably more appropriate even if you don't feel this one hits the mark.Same reasoning for the "responsibility" portion, they're talking about what you put in for what you get, not that EVERY perk should require you to earn their effects. THIS perk should, in their eyes, BECAUSE it gives you permanent progress.
Remember, BHVR are just talking about one perk here, what they're saying is just about that one perk.The incentive part is a little wishful, though, that I won't argue with.
They could've taken it back to non-permanent progress…. but that version of the perk was bad, sosomerework is probably more appropriate even if you don't feel this one hits the mark.I think there's a lot of middle ground they could have tried. 1%, but its permanent. 2% but its not permanent. Lower token maxes so it can't be stacked as easily and then applied to a 3 gen. If its just a power issue, lots of ways to adjust it.
That carries over to the other parts. If the perk was performing too well (very easily possible), why wasn't it just nerfed? But given the statement here, and Mandy's earlier forum comment, on top of what the focus of lots of complaints had been (their reference to the community which is always problematic because we have no idea who they are listening to), they seem to be viewing the activation requirement itself as a problem. Which naturally brings up the question of 'well, what about all the similar perks on the killer side?'
Basically - given the rush, what they've said, what they seem to be responding to, and their past actions, it feels extremely selective.
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@Xray said:
It has been well over a year since the last time we have gotten a new Invocation perk, the last one was released in november of 2024 with Doomed Course. Invocations are a perk type with so much potential, forcing survivors to give up something in order to gain a buff that will last the whole trial. But it is strange to see BHVR seemingly forget this perk type exists. Seeing the new survivor coming with the Grimoire chapter not coming with a Invocation was disappointing to say the least. I'm not sure if BHVR has run out of ideas for Invocations or they are just waiting to show one off with the anniversary chapter if it comes with a survivor, but i do not want to see this perk type go to waste from neglect before it really gets started.
My guess - they're dead. I'm sure they have plenty of ideas, I suspect when the introduced the concept they had already mapped out lots of Invocation designs, but there are two huge problems.
The new idea about diminishing returns - so I don't know if this has been an overall philosophy change for BHVR, but one of the ideas with boons/invocations was whether they should be balanced around an individual perk, or if the idea was that a player should always be going all out (all boon perks). If they're totally changing their focus and looking for a balance point of view that each perk should be able to be balanced on its own, then they probably need to rework the idea of Invocations to fit that concept.
Radically, hilariously, overvaluing what these would be worth to survivors - The current version isn't worth running and it used to be so much worse, especially if we go back to the PTB were the original design the progress wasn't even permanent. I really, really want to know how the design team thought this perk would actually be used because it seems to be comically out of line with what survivors actually need to do in a trial.
So I imagine they have lots of designs, but after their previous versions were openly mocked and sit in the absolute dumpster of perk usage, they don't know how to adjust the concept in a way that people would actually use the Invocations so they've just moved on (okay, I'm sure its somewhere on their roadmap to 'rework Invocations', but it probably keeps getting pushed down the list).
All that said, I agree the concept is very interesting and wish they had a way to make them a viable game element.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076190#Comment_4076190
Well, that's my point - the problem isn't any of those things, at least not according to BHVR's wording in the screenshot you shared.
What they're saying there is the problem, at least as I interpret it, is the combination of activating on any hook action and providing permanent objective progress.
Now, again, personally, I don't really agree that was a problem, but we're evaluating BHVR's position here and that's the part they're saying is an issue, not any of the examples you gave there.
That's why the other perks are relevant. They share the activation condition, but they don't share the effect, so evidently they're fine - or at least aren't being weighed in on yet. Similarly, other things provide permanent generator progress, but they have different activation conditions, so it can be inferred that BHVR have decided permanent progress needs a less passive activation condition.Whether you agree or disagree with it, I think it's always important to evaluate what is actually being said about any given change.
What they're saying there is the problem, at least as I interpret it,I don't know, maybe I'm just way past the point of giving BHVR any benefit of the doubt, but the message reads to me like its just a litany of the killer arguments about this perk that are divorced from any overall view of the game.
The 'period of observation and assessment' - if they think the perk is overperforming after having it live, just say that. If they think the perk is a bad design, then having a period to assess it isn't really relevant unless they are seeing it be used in some way they didn't predict.
The 'too great a source of permanent progress' - if this is true, it calls for a nerf, not a rework. Less progress and/or removing the permanent nature.
The 'responsibility' portion - is this meant to be unique to survivors (and I can live with that if its BHVR's perspective, I don't think both sides needed to be treated the same, but as gets pointed out there's lots of perks like this)? Because if the concept is that perks need to be earned by the player equipping them, there's a lot of perks that need to be reworked.
The 'incentivize' portion - well, this is just a bad argument. It creates an incentive to have a dedicated unhooker, which is much easier to do as a SWF, when many of the complaints about old Fast Track where its abusability by SWFs, but we've made it worse (presuming the perk is even worth running, possibly its just another dead perk).
And none of this helps that it comes off a PTB where we didn't even get the perk change for discussion given the seeming rushed nature that BHVR took to address this.
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I've never had a huge issue with Nurse in 2v8, the larger maps weaken her quite a bit and the sheer chaos of the mode throws off the ease at which she seems to down survivors.
But maybe I just need to hit the right one. Despite playing lots of 2v8, she's one of the least common killers I see.
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@Drunkenmunky said:
Just thinking out loud here.
While many would like every killer available, some come with problems.
Not possible due to stations (and licenses):
Alien, Pig, Springtrap, Vecna, The First, Onryo, Pinhead, The Nightmare, The Shape.
Reason: Coding the stations for all the larger custom maps would just create more bugs and would be a huge undertaking for each character. And they simply can't add new content for licenses they no longer have.
(Vecna's chests are effectively stations)
Should never add due to exploitation of power:
Legion, Plague, The Cannibal, Twins, Ghoul.
Reasons:
Legion and Plague have the same problem with more targets. It allows them to almost use their power infinitely. It effectively makes everyone a one hit down. Also, Plague's stations would be a coding problem.
The Cannibal, and Twins would just recreate the slugging issue such as Legion + Oni. They would just slug everyone while the teammate would be on clean up. These create impossible situations for survivors.
Ghoul would just be miserable with so many targets. It would just be Legion version 2.0. Ghoul + Oni, no thanks.
Possible 2v8 killers: Doctor, Clown, Demidog, Hag, Trickster, Artist, Knight, Unknown, Singularity, Krasue, Houndmaster, Skull Merchant.
Main Reason: Their power isn't dependent on a station that has to be coded. However, there are a few problems.
The random spawn of the Krasue's mushrooms would be a coding issue and her power would be useless, effectively forcing her to target a single player to hook.
Hag is weaker than Trapper so I'm not going there.
Singularity is an outlier. While his power requires setup, it could be effective, although he would need more cameras, which would could slow him down. Not sure about this one. To many variables.
Skull Merchant would also need more drones but, that's an easy enough add. Although, it could turn into the reason why she got nerfed. So again, on the fence with this one.
Doctor, Clown, Demidog, Trickster, Artist, Knight, Unknown, Houndmaster, I don't see particular problems with in 2v8.
Although, I really can't stand speed clown. And a shadow speed clown would be horrid to play against.
Share your thoughts.Licenses: I suspect that any of the killers who have been acquired in the past few years where probably negotiated to be allowed in 2v8. Obviously no way to say that for certain, but I think Peanits mentioned this once about making it part of license deals.
Stations: This will probably be a limiting factor, but they do have the chests for Nemi/Wesker in the game. I wonder if there is a way they could do a general type of station that they would code the map for and could be interacted with the same regardless of the killer (while still having an effect unique to their power).
List of exploitable powers: It depends to what degree they are willing to modify powers. Twins would be very difficult with the auto pick ups.
I think Bubba would be fine, but I think Oni is fine. Killers like that will just need adjustment on how much time they have access to their power.
Possible Killers
I don't think Doctor works with his wide area shock, but I guess it would depend on how it was implemented. But, like Legion, I imagine this being a very unfun killer to face.
Singularity has your stations issue I think. I also think his ability to just play defense and lock down an area might cause too many problems.
Skull Merchant is just tricky because she's the character with the largest chance to be radically overhauled again.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076202#Comment_4076202
So its stupid to use this
I see your logic but you comparing car vs bike here (in terms of exsample both speed up your travel speed from just walking or running), thats how accurate your exsample is here.when comparing prenerfed fast track to coup degre or mostly fire up, which are arguments people make here a lot and it has only one thing simular to fast track and thats how the perks power is obtained but in terms of power crep these two are nowhere near.
Sorry but pernament gen progress is very strong thing that isnt wise to just throw around like devs did on prenerfed fast track especialy when BNP is 10% or sables perk does same, on all gens but same % number but 18% like thats different especialy when its so easily aquireable and every survivor can run this.
Other part is many acknowledge (even when some people said this since 2020 I believe or 22 trutalent said this before he was kicked from fog whisperer program) over time that spreading hooks is way they want to killers objective go instead of tunneling or slugging but this perk is gutting this playstyle and pushes others into play like tunneling isnt so friendly nowdays because theres lot of perks to make it way harder so builds like this came into light
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuhrKMdGF68&t=625s
so deffinitely good perk desing indeed. One thing is requirement for unlocking perks effect, other is the power of its effect (the main one obviously) so even when some perks are quite passively unlocked like fire up their power is mid at best and they arent problematic but gen speed is problematic thing by itself which anyone whos been around for few years should know that and messing with it isnt good idea, same with gen regression but that has been nerfed quite lot past years and mayn strong perks that did damage to gens from total base progress meaning 15% form 90 seconds were switched to current gen progress.
when comparing prenerfed fast track to coup degre or mostly fire up, which are arguments people make here a lot and it has only one thing simular to fast track and thats how the perks power is obtained but in terms of power crep these two are nowhere near.Because people argue that the concept of old Fast Track, getting value for when the other side progresses their objective, shouldn't exist in the game. Others, rightly, point out that this already exists.
The idea that Fast Track is too strong is a different argument.
The idea that the specifics of how Fast Tracks work being bad for game design is another different argument.
To go back to your bike and car example - yes, the two things are very different, but if someone says that no one should move faster than a human can walk or run, that applies to both a bike and a car. It becomes embarrassing when people keep going back to the original argument when they mean something different. If people want to argue something other than the concept, they should discuss that.
It's not the fault of the person who observes that out that the originator of the point made a bad argument. People made really bad arguments about why Fast Track was a problem, which wouldn't be that big of an issue if BHVR didn't follow the poor logic.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076041#Comment_4076041
is it even a reportable offense?
Like.. wasnt it said that griefing has to take place over several instances/matches to Count as griefing? And its also not holding the player hostage as there is an eventual end to their match..
Just asking (not you but generally) if its worth it to report this, if its covered by the actual rules. Not that i think it shouldnt be reportable but i remember that some of these rules were already very questionable..
Just asking (not you but generally) if its worth it to report this, if its covered by the actual rules.At first I thought, obviously this is against the rules as @Anniehere mentions about griefing, but BHVR does seem to be incredibly vague about ever confirming a rules issue.
I suspect a trolling survivor could argue that they thought keeping the survivor in the cage to get the extra gen progress was worth it, or if most survivors were dead and they were playing for hatch, and that might fall under BHVR's 'we don't want to tell people how to play the game standard'. But generally blocking other survivors is seen as a rules violation.
I'd still report them, but yeah its always an unknown if they actually do anything.
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@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4076070#Comment_4076070
So fire up speeds up what?
- Increases the Action speeds for the following interactions by a stack-able 4/5/6 % per Token, up to a maximum of 20/25/30 %:
- Picking up and dropping Survivors.
- breaking pallets and walls and vaulting
- kicking gen
Survivors objective is to survive and do gens, killers is win chases and hook or kill survivors.
This perk works more in late game and its not winning chases that fast as fast track reduces gen time, fire up isnt even top tier perk which cant be said about fast track before its last nerf.
I see your logic but you comparing car vs bike here (in terms of exsample both speed up your travel speed from just walking or running), thats how accurate your exsample is here.
I see your logic but you comparing car vs bike here (in terms of exsample both speed up your travel speed from just walking or running), thats how accurate your exsample is here.Except if someone said 'no one should ever travel faster than their own feet can carry them' as an argument to ban cars, and someone asked 'what about bikes?' and the first person said bikes were fine, but they kept using the original reasoning, its hypocritical.
The game is filled with examples of one side getting stronger when the other side does well. Despite this getting called out not just in this thread, but many threads, people opposed to old Fast Track continue to use it as their argument ( @TamaraLatte is an exception in being consistent on both sides).
People have tried to shortcut the more difficult argument of perk strength with this absolute principle that they are selectively applying. Unfortunately, as @cogsturning points out, BHVR has pursued the same line of reasoning.
Just for the record - I'm fine with the idea that Fast Track might have been too strong and needed changed, I think the permanent nature of the gen progress was mostly a non-issue, and I think perks that activate upon the other side advancing their objective are not just fine, I think many of them are healthier for the game than the alternative of win more perks.
- Increases the Action speeds for the following interactions by a stack-able 4/5/6 % per Token, up to a maximum of 20/25/30 %:
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@cogsturning said:
The dev notes for the Fast Track changes look like this:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/8ACWUX6319TS/screenshot-20260428-144449.jpg
Some people argued the permanent progress was too much, others said it punished killers for completing their objective. The first part stayed, the second is gone. According to these notes—despite the criteria for activation being the same for years—Fast Track was changed because the survivor should have to perform a useful action to gain a benefit instead of acquiring it through their opponenet's successes.
But what about other perks that activate not just through passive inaction, but through opponents moving their objectives forward, like Fast Track did with hooks? Is it really fair to be rewarded for failing? Coup de Grace, Fire Up, Rancor, Deadlock, Wretched Fate, Batteries Included, Bitter Murmur, Cruel Limits, and Dark Arrogance are all perks that activate from survivors completing generators. Is that fair? Should you gain things like vault blocking, aura read, and action speed increases because opponents did things correctly? Or is it somehow fine when a perk is weak or unpopular, like Fast Track previously had been?
You forgot the granddaddy of all these perks, NOED.
It's troubling how much BHVR has just leaned into the preferred wording/arguments of the killer CCs recently. If the perk was overperforming and needed changing, just say so. But yeah, BHVR's statement reads like they didn't think it through.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
Haven't seen her for a while but had 3 nurse games in the last 2 days and been unpleasantly reminded how absolutely cracked and unpleasant to go against she is. Got me thinking, she's universally considered one of the S tier killers, probably the best and easiest to get good with. Her S tier brother blight is recieving a pretty major nerf in the near future, and I think she needs looking at as well.
How to do it without absolutely gutting her? You can't really change her blink much without ruining it, and a full rework would just turn her into a totally different killer. So. Give her the xeno/wesker/nemesis/singularity treatment. Add a type of tool that spawns in the trial for her games that allows you to counter her power or supress it briefly.
The issue with her is that she has no counterplay, you can try and mindgame her a little but against a good nurse that chase is going to end mucho quickly. So make something that allows survivors to get a bit of decent chase time against her to give people half a chance to do gens.
Few different themed ideas:
An aoe that supresses her power similar to the emp for singularity, (could be some sort of charm or like a photo of her husband) could also be placable like xenos turrets as a one shot counter that fizzles after and has to be replaced.
An adrenaline syringe that can be used for speed bursts, maybe with 2/3 uses and a 20/30 second cool down in between. It's medically themed and adds an element of skill to countering her, making nurses consider speed bursts into planning blinks.
Some kind of stealth tool to allow you to temporarily hide from her, like turn invisible for 2/3 seconds, again with multiple uses and a sizable cooldown.
Fight fire with fire, a charm or artifact that allows the survivor to briefly copy nurses power and blink to avoid her. Probably a one shot.
Bring back lightburn: perhaps add guaranteed torch spawns or a specialised item that allows survs to hinder nurse during a blink, requires good timing and skill.
Would be interested to hear people's thoughts. I certainly don't want to see nurse gutted and nerfed into the ground. But it would be nice to have a bit of counterplay against her and not simply hope the nurse player is bad.
Give her the xeno/wesker/nemesis/singularity treatment. Add a type of tool that spawns in the trial for her games that allows you to counter her power or supress it briefly.Huh.
That's a pretty interesting idea. If done effectively other adjustments could be made (such as her speed) so she falls more in line with the norms.
Going through what you suggested.
An aoe that supresses her power similar to the emp for singularity, (could be some sort of charm or like a photo of her husband) could also be placable like xenos turrets as a one shot counter that fizzles after and has to be replaced.Yeah, that would be neat. Call it something like Manifestation, she gains normal movement but loses the blink.
An adrenaline syringe that can be used for speed bursts, maybe with 2/3 uses and a 20/30 second cool down in between. It's medically themed and adds an element of skill to countering her, making nurses consider speed bursts into planning blinks.I don't think that one works. I get the possibility that you have gameplay were each side is trying to bait out the other, but I think it mostly just results in speeding away from the Nurse.
Some kind of stealth tool to allow you to temporarily hide from her, like turn invisible for 2/3 seconds, again with multiple uses and a sizable cooldown.Not sure how that would work. Is it like Dracula where when she is holding her power the survivor disappears and she has to guess?
Fight fire with fire, a charm or artifact that allows the survivor to briefly copy nurses power and blink to avoid her. Probably a one shot.I don't think there's any chance of that happening, but its very funny to imagine.
Bring back lightburn: perhaps add guaranteed torch spawns or a specialised item that allows survs to hinder nurse during a blink, requires good timing and skill.That's a pretty straightforward one, I like it, we just return to a mechanic that worked without having to rely on creating something new.
For simplicity - special light objects. For more interesting gameplay that's something of a partial rework, dropables that can interfere with her blink. Those also seems to be the most 'you can others, not just yourself', which I think makes for a more interesting design.
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I'm not a Nurse player, but I thought while fatigued Nurse was immune to stuns like pallets. I imagine Head On is the same and you need to wait until she comes out of fatigue completely.
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@Leon_van_Straken said:
The big problem I see is the following:
In DbD both sides are entilted and think they are the punching bag for the other side.
But I have to adress that Survivors aren´t happy no matter what you do. Pllease stay with me I will give some examples and I beg you to be honest with yourself.
Rate of disconnects are rocket high at the Survivor side and gets support by many DbD players (Why should you stay in a game if you don´t have fun?) Don´t like the Killer? DC! Don´t like the map? DC! You know what I mean as many players even in this forum suggested. "Don´t like Ghoul? Just DC and show BHVR that you don´t want to play.
Ofcourse there are Killers which DC over the smallest things themself. Bad Map, Bully Squads etc. but if you are beeing honest you will see that a Killer which dcs has most of the time a reason to do so (I don´t agree with these but you will understand) Hey another denied hit by autoaim, Hey another Larrys as Billy, Hey another flashlight save out of an impossible angle and so on.
Another point is how players react to a gamestyle the other side uses. While yes Bullysquads are hated by Killers the most common suggestions in this forum is to always bring Lightborn or if you play against Sabo Squads Slug the hell out of them. These are legit conversations how to tackle the problem you are facing. Survivors Gen Rush? Use slow down and so on.
Survivors on the other hand react to such topics in another way. Many Survivors think that BHVR should make playsstyles they don´t like unusable and get mad at BHVR if they don´t do it right after the suggestion came in. From time to time I try to reason with some players in this forum that "If slugging is in 10 of 10 games why won´t you take anti slug perks?" and always the answer tend to be something like "I don´t want to use a perk for BHVRs bad game desing".
While both sides are horrendous from time to time, most of the time I roll my eyes when I see Survivors in game or in the forum.
In DbD both sides are entilted and think they are the punching bag for the other side.But I have to adress that Survivors aren´t happy no matter what you do. Pllease stay with me I will give some examples and I beg you to be honest with yourself.Okay, let's go on the honesty.
Rate of disconnects are rocket high at the Survivor side4 times as many survivors as there are killers is a prominent reason here, but lots of others as we go through the post.
and gets support by many DbD players (Why should you stay in a game if you don´t have fun?) Don´t like the Killer? DC! Don´t like the map? DC! You know what I mean as many players even in this forum suggested. "Don´t like Ghoul? Just DC and show BHVR that you don´t want to play.I don't think this is remotely close to true anymore than it is for for killers.
Ofcourse there are Killers which DC over the smallest things themself. Bad Map, Bully Squads etc. but if you are beeing honest you will see that a Killer which dcs has most of the time a reason to do so (I don´t agree with these but you will understand) Hey another denied hit by autoaim, Hey another Larrys as Billy, Hey another flashlight save out of an impossible angle and so on.I don't see the difference on how you justify the killer more than the survivor. By this logic a survivor who DCes because they get hit after vaulting a window or already being behind a wall and than hit by a hatchet is equally excusable. As for being upset about getting Larrys as Billy, the being upset about hitting the same killer (Ghoul) again and again seems more relevant.
You say you don't agree, but justify one over the other, when they sound pretty much the same (if we're being honest).
Another point is how players react to a gamestyle the other side uses. While yes Bullysquads are hated by Killers the most common suggestions in this forum is to always bring Lightborn or if you play against Sabo Squads Slug the hell out of them. These are legit conversations how to tackle the problem you are facing. Survivors Gen Rush? Use slow down and so on.1: This takes out killers lobby dodging to avoid sweaty builds. If survivors knew who the killer was (which would be an awful idea), they'd bounce before the match and DCes would go down.
2: We've had massive waves of vitriol directed at Survivors over Fast Track and not being able to know its there or play around it. Not knowing what they are dealing with until they are in the match is the normal survivor experience.
3: As @cogsturning mentioned, Lightborn totally eliminates a playstyle.
4: How to counter the slugging is a playstyle. That's radically different than 'you should have guessed right on what perk to bring'.
Survivors on the other hand react to such topics in another way. Many Survivors think that BHVR should make playsstyles they don´t like unusable and get mad at BHVR if they don´t do it right after the suggestion came in.Unusuable is probably an exaggeration, but yes, survivors want certain playstyles nerfed.
That's not unique by any means. Gen rush, MFT, BU+FTP, old old DH, old DH, sabo plays, unhookable builds, etc. all have been massively complained about. Even something like using OTR to bodyblock got nerfed with an explanation that mirrored killer reasoning. The main difference is that killers seem to be better at actually getting BHVR to listen.
From time to time I try to reason with some players in this forum that "If slugging is in 10 of 10 games why won´t you take anti slug perks?" and always the answer tend to be something like "I don´t want to use a perk for BHVRs bad game desing".That's not always the answer. Unless there's a secret forum the rest of us don't know about, saying that just makes you sound silly.
There are three main issues here
1: Your framing - despite saying you want this be honest you're going to an extreme of someone saying '10 out of 10'. Lots of survivors complaining about it aren't going to that extreme. So if you only get slugged 1 out of 5 games, tunneled 1 out of 5 games, ignored 1 out of 5 games while the others are focused on, and two normal games, its a grab bag of guessing what perks to use.
2: Much like the discussion on Lightborn, antislug perks are still limited. You don't just get to counter the style completely. You get a pick up with Unbreakable, have to make sure you get near an exponential boon (and that the killer doesn't snuff it), etc.
3: Even with the perks, its still pretty boring. Okay, I can now crawl to exponential and pick myself up, whatever, not exactly thrilling gameplay.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4074094#Comment_4074094
You can run the numbers again and even with the switches, there would still be a massive anti-female bias stronger than all other biases (except the non-purchasable killer bias)
In your example it's 5 female killers, with the other ones likely still being close to being bottom 10, but just sitting outside. And even then, the bias is 41.6%, which is a bigger anti-female bias then all the other biases, like license bias, free killer bias, etc.
So what you will find is that the anti-female killer bias remains the strongest. And you can look at different dates, you could even use the official beHaviour numbers of a longer amount of time (which would be more stable), you will still find an incredibly strong anti-female killer bias when it came to pickrates, for as sad as it is.
Now had that female bias sat at 28% or so, like a license bias, I would've just shrugged it off as potentially some deviation of random bad luck for women killers, but the fact that the bias is so consistently strong, and nobody has been able to provide a stronger bias, to me shows how big the problem is. 42%-58% is more extreme of a bias than most even realize. Accounting that something like a license bias only adds like 4% on top of the fully random distribution at around 24-25%In your example it's 5 female killers4 female killers. I disagree with the idea that Twins can be just called a female killer. Because of the obvious nature of it being Charlotte and Victor.
with the other ones likely still being close to being bottom 10,You're changing your argument. Earlier the only thing that mattered was the 'bottom 10', the fact that a group of male characters were right outside the bottom 10 didn't matter. Now that the bottom 10 doesn't look as favorable to your argument, you want to expand the scope.
What's magical about the bottom ten? Why not the bottom 20? You're looking at extremely minor differences here and giving them outsized importance, especially given Nightlight's small sample set. Until we get to the top 10, even the top 5, the difference in appearances is very minor.
Now had that female bias sat at 28% or so, like a license biasThere are 41 killers, 11 I would say are unquestionably female killers. With four in the bottom 10 we're only slightly more than one standard deviation away from random chance, that's not even really close to the level of being unusual.
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I'm not surprised by the views to post ratio, I think its pretty normal that more people just read what is going on.
I'm more surprised by the view counts. I thought they would have been higher for the official forum.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073864#Comment_4073864
"So now you're also saying people will pick a killer because they align with their cultural or ethnic interests? It seems like you assume people will pick killers for a whole lot of reasons that they probably don't. My secondary survivor is black. I'm not. You don't have to see yourself in a character to like them."
No assumptions. Just hard experience playing with a Japanese vpn"This "data" is irrelevant for that reason, as they're free. If you try the game for the first time, you're going to pick one of these. Trapper being the poster boy (and being simple) is probably the most likely option for a fresh install to randomly choose."
I'm not quite sure how this rebuts anything I said. If anything it even further proves the point, because if you remove the free killer from the equation, there's even a stronger female bias of ending up in the bottom 10 of killers, where 2 of the female killers who aren't are in fact free."Which, again, contradicts your points."
It does not. It simply reveals a more interesting piece of psychology that's at play here, similarly how female survivors are favoured over male survivors in general as well."And what does "seen" and "personal experience" mean exactly?"
It doesn't take too long to find the many female profiles idolizing being moried by killers like Myers, Pinhead, etc. (Or even fandomming Leon, etc. it's pretty widespread)"I sure am not" (related to "Wouldn't women play as female characters so they can dominate male players as women and live an unlikely fantasy?")
Well you sure make the assumption that women would be interested in dominating men. But like I said, the reality is opposite, women mainly want to be dommed and in cases where it's not it's mostly because it's the guy that wants the dynamic, not the woman, so now you know."What do you think of woman maining male survivors then?"
Nothing in particular. For that, Leon seems to be the most frequent pick."You're arguing that it's sad that female killers are left in the dust then go on to say the most offensively sexist thing you could have managed."
If you feel like women's own preferences are sexists then I think you simply don't know what that word means. But at least you're willing to admit to some realities of it straight after it. It's simply psychology."What hard data? Nightlight's bad and incomplete numbers? The sparse and cherry-picked data BHVR tosses us occasionally? Have there been surveys on why people main who? There is no data. There are just assumptions."
It's quite funny that you are the only person here that's running on assumptions or copius arguments, when my analysis is purely made from numbers.
So here are the numbers for ya:
Least played killers:
- Skill Merchant f
- The Twins f
- The Hag f
- The Cenobite
- The Krasue f
- The Houndmaster f
- The Singularity
- The Nightmare
- The Artist f
- The Onryo f
With 41 killers and bottom 10 being comprised of obviously 10, that means any % of around 24.39% would mean this factor had no significance. The further above it, the higher the significance and below 24.39%, meaning a negative significance
41 killers, 12 female, 7 in bottom 10
Guessing bottom 10 based on being female= 58.3% right guess
(Ahem… apparently a strong bias against picking female characters, for whatever the reasons might be)
41 killers, 39 male, 3 in bottom 10
Guessing bottom 10 based on being male = 7.69% right guess
41 killers, 24 unlicensed, 7 in bottom 10
Guessing bottom 10 based on being unlicensed = 29.16% right guess
(No surprise here, licensed killers have a slight bias towards being picked more due to being popular)
41 killers, 17 licensed, 3 in bottom 10
Guessing bottom 10 based on being licensed = 17.6% right guess
41 killers, 2 no longer purchasable, 1 in bottom 10
Guessing bottom 10 based on being not purchasable = 50% right guess
(No surprise here, not being purchasable anymore heavily increases the chance of being picked less)
41 killers, 36 not free, 10 in bottom 10
Guessing bottom 10 based on not being free = 27.7% right guess
(No surprise here, not being free does create a slight bias towards the killer being played less)
(ignoring console specific platforms for simplicity)
41 killers, 11 C/D/E/F tier, 2 in bottom 10 (We will use a non-biased tierlist from a popular creator but feel free to use any other)
Guessing bottom 10 based on being weak = 18.18% right guess
(Although why weaker killers are played more might be a surprise to some, keep in mind win-rates look different at lower elos where the majority of the player-base is, where their version of the tierlist would also look different, so it's not as weird as you'd think)https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/IDQC3C26SMME/image.png
Now, I just think it adds insult to injury thinking that even guessing based on survivors being NO LONGER PURCHASABLE would yield a lower success rate than guessing based on them being female. That is just beyond crazy. However, with time as killers age and they no longer become purchasable, this statistic should change, and guessing based on this should eventually end up being the nr1 strategy, with only guessing based on them being women remaining as the second most effective strategy.
Now feel free to pick any other metric, such as them being older killers/ younger killers, etc, none will be as successful as just guessing for the female killers. There's no stronger metric currently than that. Now you can argue about the reasons, but it is undeniable; a killer being female is the strongest metric to guess that she will end up in the bottom 10 of played killers.
Feel uncomfortable with that truth as you please, be in denial about it all you want, but if anyone would not want that to be the case, maybe the Devs/community need to start doing something about that, you know? Instead of being in denial about the giant gender disparity between killers in Dead By DaylightIt's quite funny that you are the only person here that's running on assumptions or copius arguments, when my analysis is purely made from numbers.The uhm 'sexual psychology' aside, you do realize that the video you are so insistent on using as evidence relies on Nightlight, which changes constantly, right?
Like if we ran the same game show right now the results would be:
Xenomorph
Singularity
Artist
Legion
Demo
Houndmaster
Cenobite
Skull Merchant
Twins (also literally a female and a male character)
Hag
Two of the characters you have as female wouldn't be correct today. You're jumping to massive conclusions about basically random data noise and acting like it has a solid foundation.
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@[Deleted User] said:
I don't think it's a solveable problem. Matchmaking changes (quality changes) will/would help even out the experience but the game is snowbally by design no? I don't see how you can fix that without changing the gameplay flow drastically.
Solvable? Probably not. Improvable? Yeah, I think they could do that.
Basically you'd either have some sort of catch up mechanic, or just a basekit slow down to the survivors when 4 are alive, but a speed up after the first is dead, to even out the balance. How it would be done is a subject of endless arguments and you'd never solve it entirely, but I certainly think there are ideas that could make it better.
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I'm not a huge fan of addressing problematic game issues via perks, but being that's out the window, yeah, I think the perk would be fine. You'd probably need to make the endurance start when the survivor begins the unhook or a camping insta down killer wouldn't have any issue with it. If you added an effect where a survivor is not stunned while doing the unhook animation when taking a hit it would be very useful.
@CTL said:
It probably would also have to only apply when unhooking another surv, so it doesn't proc on wicked or deli
It probably doesn't make a huge difference. If the killer is camping the self unhook, they might just hit through the basekit BT, especially if they know this perk exists. If the killer isn't camping, then the survivor is going to likely need to do a conspicuous action. So either way I don't think has a huge impact on the perks value.
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@Raptorrotas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073025#Comment_4073025
Please elaborate, who are the other actors that neither win or lose in a 2k?
Because it isnt the dead survivors, they lost. Its also not the escaped survivors, cuz yknow they escaped and thus won.
And "team survivor" doesnt exist in dbd. Survivors arent judged and scored as a team.you dont magically get a win if 3 other escape or lose when youre the sole survivor. If theres been some changes, please enlighten me.
"Draws" do not exist in dbd.
Please elaborate, who are the other actors that neither win or lose in a 2k?If that's the framing you want to take, the killer advantage is even clearer.
If you want to view the game as 4 1v1s then the killer win rate goal is very explicit, its 60%. In that case a 4k is not a 'win', its 4 wins. A 2k is not a draw, its two wins and two losses.
And over many 1v1s the killer is going to win 60% of them.
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@EvilBarney666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073006#Comment_4073006
That is not the point. The point is survivors having an advantage with comms. The killers have to deal with it. No matter what anyone says or tries to gaslight its the truth. Comms is an advantage.
Of course that's the point. The game is filled with ways players can give themselves an advantage. Survivors can run BNPs every match, killers can always play Nurse, you can run BP offerings or things to make it more likely your side wins, etc.
People want to be incredibly selective about making SWFs sound different when they aren't. Killers have a 60% KR, a substantial advantage, if you want to talk about unfair that's the place to start.
@Shinkiro said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4073006#Comment_4073006
Which averages out to 2.4 kills so leaning towards regular draws rather than a win. But matches snowball regularly due to a huge amount of RNG and variables, so it doesnt mean much of anything. It statistically is the number to target for balancing an asym game. The 60% KR doesnt even mean what you're implying here either, because you can have a 60% KR and have a 20% win rate at the same time. KR DOES NOT = WIN RATE. You all really needs to stop using it as an argument because it really isnt one. It being targetted lower would statistically mean killers should lose more than win…. in an asymetrical game…. you can see the problem there. Or maybe you can't or don't want too.
The 60% KR doesnt even mean what you're implying here either, because you can have a 60% KR and have a 20% win rate at the same time.You can have a 60% KR and an 80% win rate.
As for the 20% win rate absurd outlier, let's actually explore that math. To get that over a 100 games a killer would have to 4k 20 times, and 2k 80 times - so they would have a 0% loss rate.
I'm not going to pretend that either of these scenarios are even close to true, but to try and disprove my point you brought up a situation where the killer never loses.
You all really needs to stop using it as an argument because it really isnt one. It being targetted lower wouldstatisticallymean killersshouldlose more than winNope, not even close to how the math works out, because this thing called draws exist which you even have in your post.
you can see the problem there. Or maybe you can't or don't want too.As I said above, the situation you brought up above requires a killer loss rate of 0%. So for those of us who don't want to understand things…
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@EvilBarney666 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072995#Comment_4072995
So you feel it is ok to have an advantage by calling out perks, locations, builds etc.. but the killer gets nothing? Seems a bit biased.
Killer brings Spirt Fury. Enduring. "hey guys, spirit fury enduring drop early" totally fair right? Sure survivors would eventually figure it out. But the element of surprise is now gone.
Think comp teams would be as efficient if they didnt have comms?
So you feel it is ok to have an advantage by calling out perks, locations, builds etc.. but the killer gets nothing? Seems a bit biased.Killers get a target of a 60% KR.
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@jesterkind said:
To explain that title a bit, I'm looking specifically at four perks: Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced Landing, and Smash Hit.
All four of those perks trigger the exact same status effect for almost the exact same amount of time between them; it's always 50% Haste, and the only variance in duration is that Smash Hit lasts for 4 seconds instead of the other three's 3 seconds.
It's no secret that Sprint Burst has been one of the game's strongest perks since its inception, and Lithe isn't that far behind. Similarly, most would agree Balanced Landing is generally a step below those two, and Smash Hit - while still fairly usable - is a step below even that.
My question is this: Should a perk as broadly useful and easy to activate as Sprint Burst have comparatively identical effects to something as situational as Balanced Landing? Is it appropriate for an easily-activated perk like Lithe to give almost exactly the same distance as a difficult to activate perk like Smash Hit?
We already have some precedent for the effect varying, with Smash Hit's extra second, but I think it's an interesting discussion to consider if maybe the percentage could vary based on how easily accessible the perk is, alongside maybe the duration changing too.
I'm phrasing it as a question because right now it's just that, a question. I think there's arguments to be made both ways, so I'm curious what everyone else thinks!
Conceptually? Yeah, I could see it.
In practice, probably not. I worry that the line between slight nerf and destroying the perk would be pretty unclear. Each perk has its unique strengths and downsides that I think balance them okayish.
I agree with @supersonic853 that adjusting the exhaustion timers would be a more workable approach.
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I don't know where the idea comes from that BHVR just balances based on a spreadsheet. Sure, they have number targets, but these are more general principles. They've said in stat releases before they understand the difference between Nurse's KR and her upper end (for example).
BHVR can't be bothered to give survivors a way to learn killer powers outside of matches she has a high kill rate.And they haven't given killers tutorials on how to actually chase around loops, when its a good idea to bloodlust a survivor around a pallet, what perks work best on each killer, or a target practice game for Huntress.
Would KRs be different if they did those things? Sure, but they haven't.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4072628#Comment_4072628
Well the next step would be millions but im not sure if we have more than 2 or 3 million players yet.
I suspect they have that amount, if not substantially more. They said recently they have 70 million players, but I think this has to be accounts and not active players. I guess it depends on how regular the players need to be to count.
Like right now there are 55k players on Steam. that's not counting consoles, or switch, or the other PC providers. And those numbers are just right now, whatever the count is in a few hours could be a whole group of new players, and of course not every player plays every day.