crogers271
crogers271
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A few issues with how you set this up
1: Constantly - people talk more about severity than frequency, BHVR doesn't do updates that frequently, especially with the new way they are approaching mid chapters
2: Fast Track Side grade - seriously, how is that a side grade?
3: Nerfs being deserved - lots of things in the game may or may not be deserved, that has nothing to do with whether one side is bearing the brunt of it.
A year and a half ago when the quality of life was announced, survivors were told that BHVR understood not enough attention had been paid to their side. Instead since 9.2 which was when so many issues on the survivor were supposed to be addressed, they've lost anti-hemorrhage syringe (not a side grade or a buff despite some absurd claims), Styptic Agent was outright murdered, Conviction nerfed, OTR nerfed, Hope nerfed, and killer aura read on keys just gone. You also have things like Fast Track getting buffed, then nerfed, and the planned increase of unhook protection getting removed as well. Survivors lost quite a few of their strongest things, are going to lose more, and this all came after a promise to address the biggest complaints.
Some of the things above should have been changed. Some absolutely deserve what they got, some didn't, and some where done poorly, but its been a a massive change from the directions survivors were being told the direction of the game was going, which really leads to the feeling that survivors are just getting kicked around by the devs.
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@Carth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103317#Comment_4103317
You make really good points! Overall I guess the real reason I dislike this line of thinking is it provides the perfect backdoor to get out of any argument you dislike, if someone provides proof you can claim its fake, if someone does not provide proof you can handwave it away as an anecdotal experience and not representative of the whole. It's a perfect backdoor to arguing.
To a degree, that's always going to be true. It's why even scientists who are experts in their fields can have intense disagreements, there's always going to be potential holes in data. Eventually though we get to an Occam's Razor where something just sounds more and more improbable.
If discussions were easy we wouldn't be on the 4th page of this thread.
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@Carth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103311#Comment_4103311
At that point why believe anything though? Clearly if it's not from BHVR then its suspect to photo editing, AI editing, and the like. And if someon does not approach the argument with a "proof" in hand then its anecdotal and can be hand waved away/ignored. You "feel" something is Overpowered/underpowered/bad/good/whatever, it's just "ancedotal" and cannot be taken seriously. You're stuck between a rock and a hard place of "I cant trust what you say" and also simultaneously "Well just because you experienced X doesn't mean everyone does". In effect there is no point to arguing anything because it could be fake or anecdotal so it doesn't really matter.
Why do we believe anyone in real life? Anyone can lie to you, but some people are telling the truth, some aren't, and there's lots of subjectivity mixed in.
We use our knowledge of the world and our ability to evaluate arguments (the same thing we do to show why Nightlight isn't reliable). In DbD context, we all have our play experience, but can also watch other people play and talk to each other. A good example, one @cogsturning has made before, is what killer on these forums actually has a KR approaching the 50% Nightlight has? There obviously have to be at least a couple of people, but its so far outside the norm of what people actually have that its initially suspect; then throw on that it doesn't agree with BHVR's data, nor is the data even consistent across its own site, and you have bad data. Is it a data collection problem, a self selection bias, or are people intentionally misleading it are all academic questions, but for the sake of discussion value, its worthless.
Data informs discussions, it doesn't determine them, and bad data undermines the ability to have an honest discussion.
In effect there is no point to arguing anything because it could be fake or anecdotal so it doesn't really matter.Just because someone could lie, doesn't mean we need to accept data (Nightlight's) that we have substantial reasons to believe is extremely inaccurate. What you're arguing is kind of the reverse of the Perfect Solution fallacy - you're saying we can't discount anything because anyone could potentially be lying.
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@Carth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102962#Comment_4102962
Unless BHVR provides API endpoints to pull this data this is literally all you can do, if BHVR isn't going to supply the data willingly then the only alternative is community provided data. Which as your point out, can absolutely be lied about….but what's the alternative, try not to collect any data at all because some poeple could lie? At that point why even have the forums, anyone can lie about anything here, what's the value in it if it cannot be absolutely proven?
A single person can be disagreed with. They have to defend their points and others can disagree and explain why. And if a post contains lies/provably wrong things they can be called out.
We had an example of such a thing a few days days ago.
Bad data is insidious. No one can be called on to defend it, it just becomes 'the best we have'. Except its worse than nothing, because its wrong and leads people to believe things that aren't true. Having an opinion about how you think the game is, but you can't say for sure because of lack of data and thus you need to argue why you think that, is much better than having an opinion that a person doesn't feel the need to defend because 'the data supports it'.
The alternative is having discussions, people actually explaining why they believe something, and answering those who disagree with them.
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I'm not going to be as blunt as @esarraf , but his point is correct.
A game where the killer always picks up is a bad game. The issue with slugging is not and has never been 'survivors never want to be left downed'. It's been when slugging becomes the norm or a totally different way to win the game.
If a game is meant to have strategy elements, which DbD is supposed to, then players should frequently be faced with multiple courses of action, where deciding upon what is the right course of action is based on various risk/reward factors. What you're proposing isn't killer agency, its the opposite, its setting a clear, obvious path of what they should always do.
Survivors have a few risk reward elements at play here. The survivor being chased has to decide whether its worth it to go down on a pallet, or gain more time by dropping it/running through. The rescuing survivor(s) has to decide whether its worth the lack of gen pressure (or healing, doing a totem, setting up a boon, etc.). The end result of making pickups easier and sabos less likely is that survivors don't even bother going for preventing a hook (which is usually a bad play anyway, its just a lot more fun), instead they just do gens.
The killer also has risk/reward elements - she has to decide between a quick pickup, checking for rescuers, which hook to go to, etc. That's all agency. You're actually exhibiting a type of agency right now - choosing a build to make a particular course of action more effective.
Basically, this is why making hooking easier is not the solution to slugging. The goal shouldn't be to take away those game elements, but to balance them in a way that makes for engaging gameplay.
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@Gozuthelivingdead said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103099#Comment_4103099
Why could it not not be visualized just like a hex? Would that make it more accessible for all players?
It could, but a big part of the game is subtle sound cues. Like any game element, that impacts some players more than others. BHVR has made the decision to make some things, which aren't meant to be subtle noises (visible heart beat) be able to be seen by the player, but lots of elements are meant to possibly be missed (footsteps, killer breathing, slow locker open, etc.)
Now they could do this for the survivors, except there would be a few differences. One, lots of hexes activate at the start, so you'd just get pinged a few times right away and lag issues can create problems at the start of the match and two, hexes don't have any large secondary indicator the way boons do with their visual radius.
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@Ghostofsnow said:
while content is nice, i just wish the quality of life and improving the core game took more precedent. I'm fine with give and take, I'd gladly trade. killers getting anti gen rush for a 2min unbreakable that only really comes into play when people are getting mass slugged.
While i do love this game it's just a vicious cycle and I'm bummed to think mmr working will actually enhance the negativity the game has a ton more and will silently be rolled back. the feast or famine approach to balance and snowball while giving amazing highs kinda eventually gets beaten out by a negativity bias that seeped beyond the communities walls.
This is one of the hardest games to recommend to new players and on the outside bad experiences past players had years ago still get aroundthe feast or famine approach to balance and snowball while giving amazing highs kinda eventually gets beaten out by a negativity bias that seeped beyond the communities walls.Yeah, this has been observed for awhile. When DbD 'works' the game quality is amazing, but how many trash game happen in between? Are you the type of person who puts up with all the garbage chasing the great game? How long until it burns you out?
I agree, I really wish they would do more to work on the gameplay elements that can result in the type of DbD games that lead me to tell others 'never, ever, play this'. It used to be worst, at least we don't have server close out three gen situations anymore.
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Not all modifiers are for everyone. If you don't like it, its cool, normal game is still there. I think everyone has at least one of the modifiers that they don't have much interest in.
@TheTWDFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103186#Comment_4103186
I’m not bothered about having four meta perks, but I’ve noticed that tunnelling and proxy camping is even more prevalent in this game mode and with there being no incentives to play, it just seems like a huge waste of time.
I hope Lights Out is better as I haven’t gotten to play that before either.
Lights Out - its probably the most disliked modifier, but the people who like it, really seem to love it. Who knows though with this round of changes.
@TheTWDFan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103181#Comment_4103181
So is that why 2V8 normally has between 3-5x more bloodpoints for survivor players because more people are queuing up to play killer? I assumed it was just a general modifier bonus to make it more enticing to play.
Well that’s disappointing as there’s virtually zero reason to play in the Chaos Shuffle lobbies.BP bonuses in 2v8 have, at least so far, gotten a flat bonus to survivors + the normal 'how much is this needed' modifier.
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@ThatRyanB said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4103132#Comment_4103132
If you don't mind me being the annoying Question Guy™️ here, I'd love to dig into your point about invocations. Is there anything specific that stands out to you that makes them feel not viable?
I went back and read all of the threads I could find that complained about Invocations to answer this.
The sum of their parts far, far outweighs the benefits.
-Being permanently broken is an absolute massive cost.
-Having to spend 60 seconds on it is wasteful, that's a giant amount of time that you are unavailable to the team.
-Going down into the basement is frequently out of the way (more time lost) and potentially very risky.
So you have a survivor who is unable to help their team, the progress they get from the invocation(s) would be better spent doing just about anything else, if they get interrupted they are in serious trouble (or even caught coming out of the basement after a completion), and the reward for this is becoming exceptionally weak.
The permanently broken is the most egregious and, bluntly, unappealing. The having to go to the basement is the most thematic and appropriate.
Let me put it this way, if as a killer I had the option to make a survivor permanently broken at the cost of 10 gen charges, I'd consider it. If I knew that would take a perk(s) slot away from them, plus they couldn't do anything else for 60 to 90 seconds (Invocation + travel time), I think every killer would take that. It follows a trend that every now and then we get survivor 'perks' that do more to help the killer than survivors.
To repeat a question I've said a few times in a different form - I'd love to know how the Devs thought Invocation perks were even close to viable.
Edit to add: I hope Invocations get reevaluated, because they are a cool concept. But we're coming up on two! years since we got one. Honestly, I think the entire community believes they are a concept BHVR has abandoned.
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@ThatRyanB said:
I'm glad to hear you're excited for the upcoming perk changes! And thank you for kicking up this thread :) I'll keep an eye on it to pass feedback on to the team!
For those of you responding, I'd love to know one thing especially about perks you'd love to see changed: WHY would you like to see the perk changed? It's one thing to voice the result you'd ultimately like to see, but it's especially helpful to understand why a perk is causing friction for you.
I'll expand my list a little.
Invocation - They're a good concept, but an incredibly poor design. They'd add a lot to the game if they were actually viable to run.
Hexes - They are feast or famine, either way too powerful on certain killers/builds, or an absolute waste. At the extreme end of Thrill of the Hunt it doesn't feel like any progress can be made, and a game where you can't advance isn't very fun.
De-standardizing Hex/Invocations/Boons - @Firellius covered this pretty well but I'll add on. With the addition of Diminishing Returns, while I disagree with its implementation, I agree with the core game problem being the way certain things can stack. A problem with the design around these concepts has always been if you're going to go for it, go all the way (full perk load out). All of these elements would be much easier to balance if they didn't stack on top of each other.
Nowhere to Hide - The aura read traveling with the killer is not just too powerful (which it is), but it ruins any sort of stealth feelings in the game.
Teamwork Perks - These probably won't change, but BHVR never should have leaned into something that was clearly SWF designed. It adds to the perception that SWF is 'cheating' because soloq would never have a chance to get equal value out of these perks.
DS - With BHVR abandoning anti-tunnel, OTR being nerfed, the anti-tunnel perk that exists should actually mean something big if it gets used. If we're going to solve tunneling via perks, then if the survivors guess right on the perk selection it has to mean a lot to have actual weight.
Hyperfocus - The skill expression on this perk is something the killer has no input on. If a person truly masters hyperfocus, they just win. Skill expression should allow input from both sides.
Chest perks - These are a great concept, but absolutely destroyed by the need to run chest offerings, which is easier to do in a SWF, but if you're in a SWF you don't need the benefits these perks give. Also any type of perk design that is based around offerings is a bad idea because its discourages people from running BP offerings and leads to toxicity.
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@myersmain101 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102928#Comment_4102928
Hatch is neutral MMR but abandon does not count as a loss, it's also neutral hence why on the stats it does not show a DC, escape or death. It's void, like the match never took place for the survivor. It's also why someone can play 10 matches, escape 1 and abandon 9 yet still get 100% escape rate as it only counts the 1 escape.
I think many killers do welcome gen rush when there is a cheater or when it's a bully squad. They just want the match over, they know they lost and want to move on to an actual fun match not be made a fool of by some bully squad. Sound familiar? It should because that's exactly what survivors want when the killer has clearly won the match and is just toying with them on ground.
The abandon after 10min is basically preventing survivors from doing gens. That's winning the match, that's part of killer gameplay to pressure gens and stop them being finished. If a killer does this for 10min they are clearly in a good position to win the match. Yet they get to abandon a match they are winning. The crows to prevent people from avoiding gens solved the issue of people hiding for an hour.
Survivors can abandon after being downed twice then recovered....that's not losing the match
Your premise about what abandons means is incorrect.
@Mandy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4022476#Comment_4022476
The stats website has no correlation with the stats that we collect internally that work for things like MMR and the stats we periodically show to players.
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1: Making invocations not utter trash.
2: Nowhere to Hide - lock it to the gen.
3: Change Thrill of the Hunt to an entirely new perk (given its name, probably something bloodlust related) - give a buff to totem in how long it takes to complete, but survivor progress doesn't instantly vanish, instead slowly decays.
4: Eviserate the concept of teamwork perks.
5: Being you said no revisions - DS now doesn't stun the killer, but blood/ichor/machine oil goes flying everywhere and the killer goes into a berserk rage swinging wildly (including random use of power) and out of control.
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Last time we got stats for 4 person SWFs their escape rate was 40%. Last time we got rates for high MMR only, it was 48%. They aren't running away with the game by any means.
@Abbzy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102981#Comment_4102981
Sometimes you can get steamrolled and there wasnt much you could do, there are mistakes always nobody playes perfect clean hitting every range attack or daśh attack or winning every mind game etc.
If you get good swf on killer you have samm experience with or weaker killer then the outcome could be already decided in the lobby it just happens and it will happen even with better mmr.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102980#Comment_4102980
Sometimes there isnt much you can punish if they dont leave open windows for that like with weaker killers against good survivors 2-3 missed attacks or lost mind games can totaly change the outcome ofm the match DBD isnt consistent game if it was everyone would play in swf or played as nurse,blight to win.
Sometimes you can get steamrolled and there wasnt much you could do, there are mistakes always nobody playes perfect clean hitting every range attack or daśh attack or winning every mind game etc.Absolutely. And if people say 'I made a few mistakes here', or 'they played a great game', or 'well, it came down to a few 50/50s' - great. Wonderful even. If more people had a mindset like that the game would be in a much healthier place.
Except we get - SWFs are unbeatable.
If you get good swf on killer you have samm experience with or weaker killer then the outcome could be already decided in the lobby it just happens and it will happen even with better mmr.If one side sweats more than the other, they are going to have a huge advantage. That's true for both sides of the game. That's not a per se balance issue as the variable levels of 'sweatiness' is something BHVR has intentionally built into the game.
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@BlackRabies said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102893#Comment_4102893
It's 4 killer perks against 16 survivor perks. Killer perks should be stronger on average compared to survivors. Ruin, Corrupt, lethal lot of other killer perks that doesn't require the killer to put in any effort to activate but most of them only can activate at specific times of the match and becomes a dead perk after its use. Sprint Burst i never liked cause it can be used at any time of the trail without any effort on the survivors part.
The argument seems to be constantly shifting.
First it was no free value, then it was well these perks can't be compared (then @MashedBroccoli did just that), now we're doing the 4 v 16 argument.
The argument is silly for an obvious reason - if the survivors had 10 second gens the killer could have 20 perks.
Things can't be discussed in isolation as if each element is meant to directly balance against the other.
Sprint Burst i never liked cause it can be used at any time of the trail without any effort on the survivors part.SB has obvious conditions and draw backs like any other perk. You go exhausted anytime you run, even if you don't want to, so you need to either have perks to support it or take the risk the killer comes to while you have no exhaustion perk to rely on.
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@myersmain101 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102894#Comment_4102894
Hatch is not to end the game, the egc does that. We can remove the hatch altogether and when last person remains the egc starts so the last player can open the gates. But we have hatch as an alternative method to escape not to simply end the match. Also hatch is not quite the same as abandon. Hatch counts as an escape, abandon just voids the match so it doesn't count as escape or death, if it was just a means to end the match then isn't that redundant by the fact a survivor can abandon?
I'm not talking about lore I'm talking about the game feel and mechanics, survivor feels way more free than killer. A survivor can start a match, end it and join another match far quicker and easier than a killer can. Killer is stuck in the match, can't even dc because of the penalty for doing so....which survivors can bypass. This is backed up by the fact that survivors have more ways to end the match than a killer does.
The point is that killer is restricted to play the match out with options to abandon only when the killer is winning which if thats fine then this should be applied to survivors too or it does show double standards. I think the bypassing the go next/DC penalty needs to be addressed or allow killers to do the same. How this is accomplished, I have no idea that's up to the Devs to sort out but as it stands survivors have the sweet deal while killers feel forced to endure a lost match and taunting from survivors which we all know survivors didn't like it when it happened to them regarding slugging.
Hatch counts as an escape, abandon just voids the match so it doesn't count as escape or death, if it was just a means to end the match then isn't that redundant by the fact a survivor can abandon?No. Hatch is MMR neutral. An abandon is counted as a loss (or whatever ends up happening with the bot, BHVR hasn't been clear about that). The personal stat tracker is not reflective of what is actually counted by the game.
A survivor can start a match, end it and join another match far quicker and easier than a killer can.Yes, its an elimination game where only side can be eliminated. That's pretty core to the game feel and mechanics. Usually the ability to be quickly eliminated is not seen as a positive (or otherwise killers should really celebrate gen rush).
Killer is stuck in the match, can't even dc because of the penalty for doing so....which survivors can bypass.No. Survivors and killers both get hit with DC penalties. Both roles have conditions under which they can abandon, which is very much not a DC.
The point is that killer is restricted to play the match out with options to abandon only when the killer is winning which if thats fine then this should be applied to survivors too or it does show double standards.Why can't survivors eliminate the killer? Why don't survivors have different powers instead of being a reskin? Why don't survivors and killers have an equal KR/ER target?
Why was the killer able to open the gate for years to speed up their end game without the survivors having any equivalent option?
The answer is that its an asym. Each role is very different from the other and just because something is done for one role to make the game better does not mean there is always an equivalent for the other role.
How this is accomplished, I have no idea that's up to the Devs to sort out but as it stands survivors have the sweet deal while killers feel forced to endure a lost match and taunting from survivors which we all know survivors didn't like it when it happened to them regarding slugging.If survivors lose a person quickly due to a tunnel they can't abandon even if the match is lost. They have to play it out. Survivors will be losing for quite some time before the abandon option appears.
Survivors have the abandon options they have because:
1: It is very easy to draw a line on when the match is over. Not just 'unlikely to win', but almost nothing that the survivors can do.
2: The history of how frequent, and how long, killers were able to keep survivors in the match compared to what survivors are capable of.
This is also why the killer has abandon after 10 minutes option, because that was the most frequent form of abuse on the survivor side. It also does not mean the killer is 'winning' as you say, this can be triggered by the survivors engaging in a slow and cautious approach to doing the gens, the killer still gets the option anyway.
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@myersmain101 said:
The fact survivors can abandon when they have lost the match but killers only way to abandon is when the killer has won the match, such as when all are slugged, all DC. In that situation the killer can throw a match they have won if all are slugged bots. But let's be honest, can we imagine survivors abandoning a match they have clearly won? Hell, they even wait at the gates to prolong the match, they certainly won't be abandoning when they won. Which makes killers abandon option a bit useless.
I know many will say "but you can always get a kill as killer". No you can't, 3 survivors at full health standing an inch away from the gate? Without a perk like noed it's not happening. Even if they can get a kill last second, the killers should get the same option as survivor. Last slugged survivor can crawl to hatch, they can escape, I done it many times but survivors still have the choice to abandon when last man standing. They have a choice so should killer.
I think another point to bring up is how many options survivors have to essentially go next for free v killer. It's crazy that 4 survivors are stuck trying to escape a killer but it's actually the killer that's trapped in the match more than survivors. Survivors basically have to option of "go next" by dying, they can straight up DC, they have at least 3 abandon options. But the killer can't die to go next, they have 1 abandon option when no gens are done in 10min. And 1 option to abandon only when all others are bots.
I can only hope something will change and the abandon feature gets a rework so it's not abused beyond it's intended purpose.it was designed to help deal with 4min toxic slugging, it was not designed to give people a free go next.
I know many will say "but you can always get a kill as killer". No you can't, 3 survivors at full health standing an inch away from the gate? Without a perk like noed it's not happening. Even if they can get a kill last second, the killers should get the same option as survivor. Last slugged survivor can crawl to hatch, they can escape, I done it many times but survivors still have the choice to abandon when last man standing. They have a choice so should killer.The main issue with the standing an 'inch' from the gate - if a person wants to troll they just stand 2 inches from the gate now. Designating when the game is truly 'over' for the killer is much more difficult of a line to draw than for the survivors.
The issue for hatch - that's not a win the same way as a kill is a win for the killer. Hatch exists as a mechanic to end the game, abandon accomplishes the same goal.
It's crazy that 4 survivors are stuck trying to escape a killer but it's actually the killer that's trapped in the match more than survivors.If we're going to argue lore/theme, everyone in a trial is trapped there by the Entity.
Survivors basically have to option of "go next" by dying, they can straight up DC, they have at least 3 abandon options.If you want to propose a way for survivors to 'kill' the killer, go for it.
The killer can also DC.
Not sure why a numerical difference between 3 and 2 is really relevant. Its an asym, different things happen to different sides.
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@Slurp_Ramen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102751#Comment_4102751
well I would mention if events affected things on the killer side, but they don’t more often than not.
The only thing that comes to mind is the void and haunts from the Halloween mode being inspiration for the judgements exile and Vecna 1 skeletons.
I sure I missed something. I would genuinely be interested to find out what got added from previous events to killers, may it be power inspiration or perk inspiration.
this isn’t me defending killer sided events or attacking survivors sided ones, I was just pointing out that the events can and DO have an affect on the regular 1v4 game, it just happens when things get implemented from an event it tends to be implemented for survivors, which would make sense considering killers have entire power and add ons going for them already.
edit: I guess we can probably throw in event items and add ons too, blighted serum was pretty busted on some killers back in the day and even more so on survivors with old syringes, survivors also got firecrackers (eventually made into flashbang), and generally the event items are all the best versions of the item for cheap, some event get bonuses; like the blood map from blood moon is super nice because on top of facilitating totem builds and the everything else it does, you basically get empathy for free which no other map gets and it’s been my best friend considering all the hex builds running around.
All of these you could freely use in the regular 1v4 game which did, and still does to a lesser extent, inherently affect balance.But what does any of this have to do with your earlier post/argument: 'We, objectively, just had THE most survivor biased game mode in history which only a handful of killers were good (but still boring in).'
Some things have been tried out in event modes and a related idea has sometimes made it into the game. Okay, what does that have to do with the topic?
@vol4r said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102821#Comment_4102821
I've heard that they acted upon uninstall survey, which mostly were survivior complains - killers slugging, tunneling and camping.
I can't point out exact source tho, so take it with a grain of salt.
You see, that's why I know you watch content creators - they were mad and used words like "demonizing slugging with skull merchant". They were using those same exact words and arguments.
Yes, slugging is very bad. That's why knock out got reworked and coulrophobia is getting nerfs now.
This kind of gameplay is boring, unsatisfying and miserable. Especially on solo queue.
Slugging needs to be addressed. What they are doing is a good thing.Big killer mains said that pallets save was the problem that killers tended to slug (especially on gideon) and now that's not a problem anymore - killer's hitbox can succesfully block surviviors "drop pallet" prompt.
Only occasional slugging for pressure is fine. People were slugging intentionally to bleed people out and this gameplay needed to go.
People DC because it's unfun for them, they have every right to do so.
You can't force people to do what they don't want to do, that's just how world works.
We should be reviewing this issue from the different point - we need to look into why people are DCing.
If people will not have a reason to DC, they won't, it's that simple.
Not enjoying ghoul or jason is valid, DC against plague, doctor or clown is valid.I've heard that they acted upon uninstall survey, which mostly were survivior complains - killers slugging, tunneling and camping.I can't point out exact source tho, so take it with a grain of salt.The uninstall survey was briefly cited by Mandy on this forum but then never expanded on. Until she cited it, it's not like anyone was doubting that people were upset by tunneling/camping, but then the survey became a way for people to try and side step the argument.
Anyway, when this was going on people uninstalled the game and actually posted the screenshots (many of the CC vids were working off older forms). The vast majority of the provided possibilities (over 20) were neutral (e.g. too many bugs), with an option to call out both killer and/or survivor perks balance, and then amongst all those options was the 'excessive tunneling and camping' choice.
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@Domicci said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102813#Comment_4102813
So you can use a tiny sample size but because night light only uses more people's accounts then one but not all accounts we cant use it?
Also im sorry why doesnt behavior show all the states at all times they have all this data they clearly dont know hot to read shown by not understand why the pigs map has the most slugging its noy rocket science i think we all know why.
So you can use a tiny sample size but because night light only uses more people's accounts then one but not all accounts we cant use it?Yes, that's literally how stats work. If your sample isn't actually reflective of the full data set, it's useless.
A few years ago, every time BHVR released stats Nightlight's mirrored them within a couple of points (margin of error). Back then it was safer to say that we could use Nightlight for a broader understanding of performance (though it still had some issues) - but given their data isn't even close to the total data, its worthless.
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102660#Comment_4102660
I'd think pwyw should theoretically make killer queues shorter since more people would be active on survivor instead of clogging up the line doing nothing. The fact that it's only available on killer is also pretty telling. Even when survivor has a queue and killer doesn't (which is currently rare) there's no option for survivors to play killer while they wait.
I'd think pwyw should theoretically make killer queues shorter since more people would be active on survivor instead of clogging up the line doing nothing.Theoretically it could, but it depends on how people behave on whether it makes it better or worse.
Let's take a scenario - 30% of the players are queued to play killer, 70% of players queued to play survivor. 10% of the players on the killer side are waiting. Now let's say that 10% all select to go survivor, 2% of them get killer matches, 8% of them are playing survivor, things are going quicker.
On the theoretical level, that's how it works and speeds up killer queues and probably what BHVR was thinking. But it gets a little deeper.
Among those 70% of survivors are probably a lot of people who wanted to play killer but didn't because of the wait and/or like to play both roles. Those players now instead of just playing survivor, throw their name in the killer pool as well. This quickly necessitates longer and longer wait times for those who want to only play killer (or how frequently they get to play killer if they were okay with playing survivor).
In a hypothetical 'worst/best' (depending on your point of view) where everyone went to play killer and also go on survivor, people would be doing roughly 4 matches of survivor for every one they got of killer.
We'll never get anywhere close to that extreme, but the 4 to 1 dichotomy works against killer queue times, because there's a lot more survivors who can come over to the killer side and do both roles than there are killers who could do the same thing. Potentially the only thing that prevents it from completely spiraling out of control (from a pure killer only perspective) is the amount of people playing SWFs.
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@ChaosWam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4102326#Comment_4102326
I really hate to bring up this argument, but a lot of players don't play at a higher level to know how useful something is, or how busted something can be when applied.
I even forget this at times until I actually research why something gets changed. Good examples are old infinite loops, where new players may have been unaware while players who knew of them could just loop infinitely.
Or more recent (albeit still years ago) Made For This stacking with other haste. I personally made killers RQ because I could loop around 1 single car on Haddonfield about 7-8 times when pre-planning boon: dark theory and it was even worse when hope kicks in.
And for the sake of not showing bias, how about the gen kick meta that resulted in Skull Merchant being kneecapped and Call of Brine being the worst slowdown perk in the game for awhile now? That sure wasn't healthy and there was no subjectivity to it.
And on the subjective angle, how about the fact that every killer has to experience the game a bit differently? You can make the argument that the MFT meta before would have been useless against Ghoul, Krasue, and possibly Jason. But for basic M1's like Hag, Sadako, Trapper, etc? There's a reason for the change. Heck, I can apply it to your Shoulder the Burden argument because the meta killers can still tunnel out anyone being saved by that perk pretty efficiently, it just hurts killers that can't catch up in chase as effectively.
This is what I mean by this isn't something that should be an Us VS Them, this is an overall game balance effecting both sides where the meta is stagnant and needs changing. And BHVR has kinda painted themselves into a corner with how they're powercreeping things. Not just killers either, Bite The Bullet is kinda redundant because of A Place For Us.We shouldn't be having a meltdown because unhealthy mechanics/perks get nerfed or removed, we SHOULD be focused on what's balanced for an asym based on the ideal match within the confines of DBD, not based on bias for either side.
We shouldn't be having a meltdown because unhealthy mechanics/perks get nerfed or removed, we SHOULD be focused on what's balanced for an asym based on the ideal match within the confines of DBD, not based on bias for either side.Sure, this is true, but it requires discussing the whole scope of the game and what about it makes it an asym.
You can make the argument that the MFT meta before would have been useless against Ghoul, Krasue, and possibly Jason. But for basic M1's like Hag, Sadako, Trapper, etc? There's a reason for the change. Heck, I can apply it to your Shoulder the Burden argument because the meta killers can still tunnel out anyone being saved by that perk pretty efficiently, it just hurts killers that can't catch up in chase as effectively.This is just what DbD is. Some perks/items/strategies will work better against some killers than others (in addition to the killer's strategy). Survivors bring multiple anti-tunnel perks and the killer doesn't tunnel? Survivors bring no anti-tunnel perks and the killer does? Survivors with heal builds hit a Plague (or a hard tunneling killer)? The reverse is also true.
That's just how the game is designed, either side can be given pretty substantial advantages based on what is selected in the lobby screen with having no knowledge of what their opponents will have (though it used to be even more extreme). The discussion can't just focus on worst case scenarios for the killers (e.g. Trapper) then just focusing on the worst case scenarios for the survivors (e.g. Nurse).
The issue on the killer side of the discussion is that the weak killers will generally be weak regardless of the build survivors have. Nurse is still going to outclass Trapper even if the survivors run no perks whatsoever.
Or more recent (albeit still years ago) Made For This stacking with other haste. I personally made killers RQ because I could loop around 1 single car on Haddonfield about 7-8 times when pre-planning boon: dark theory and it was even worse when hope kicks in.And for the sake of not showing bias, how about the gen kick meta that resulted in Skull Merchant being kneecapped and Call of Brine being the worst slowdown perk in the game for awhile now? That sure wasn't healthy and there was no subjectivity to it.So let's compare the two which are pretty good examples of things that should have been changed, but also show a pretty clear difference in the extent -
The survivor situation requires factors outside the survivors control. First, they need to get a killer that the strategy will work against. Second, they need a map where this can be set up (easier at the time with map offerings). Third, they need to put the time into setting it up then need to get the killer to chase them. Fourth, they need the killer to commit to the chase and not have something like Coup that could potentially counter it.
And if the killer sees how fast the survivor is moving they can drop chase to focus on other targets.
Now take the Skull Merchant example of killer going to a three gen right from game start. What was the survivor counter? Have Potential Energy and you win. Otherwise, survivors were forced into an extremely long, tedious game.
DbD's an asym, the sides aren't the same. The problematic survivor examples requires a couple of things to go their way, while the killer examples are problematic unless the survivors happened to bring the right perks.
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Lights Out is meant to be this sort of return to form like gamemode where it's pitch dark and you cannot see anything unless you got the candle from the Castlevania iteration.And it hasn't been working out. You don't need a tinfoil conspiracy - it didn't get enough players.
Every single perk and add-on are basically available to be used randomly in Chaos Shuffle, more specifically add-ons that completely change the killer's power or make their abilities completely useless, like Sadako Tapes, Scratch Mirror Myers, etc.People have been asking for just this. People want differing levels of chaos and the 'absolute chaos' side has won out (though not random killers/survivor skins, yet) for this go around.
The only gamemode that isn't affected by changes like this is 2v8, the mode that is starting to lose it's steam and having the most barebones changes.Player counts don't back up that its running out of steam.
Pretty much it boils down to something much more simple - BHVR is responding to players. Not enough people are playing Lights Out, I'm surprised they are still trying to salvage it, but they are, so its not surprising it needs a big change. Chaos Shuffle gets lots of different feedback. And 2v8 isn't getting many changes because people are playing it a lot and its coming back in September for a longer stay.
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@BlightedDolphin said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101857#Comment_4101857
Would love to know why this was downvoted so much.
I'll give this a shot.
I didn't downvote it, but it's structured strangely and where it ends up up doesn't really follow from how it begins.
If it started with the last paragraph, then made the contrasts more clear between the first to third paragraphs it would read better (while it is strong in these situations…however in these instances). Because right now it sounds like you think what they are doing is a great idea until the end. Also moving the third paragraph earlier helps as that is a much larger portion of the player base thus putting it deeper in the discussion seems to be avoiding it.
Basically, if it was written in the reverse order the message would have been clearer.
You'd lay out the most important part first - 'no impact from the nerf, even if one could be justified', before laying out the most common issue 'not a problem most of the time', before moving onto the exception when it could be an issue needing addressed 'comp and the explanation on how it can be really strong'
Also starting off on 'comp' is frequently a bad way to start the explanation as many people discount it (which I think is generally true given they have their own sets of rules and scoring).
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I kind of expect that no MMR changes will ever happen, or if they do they'll be relatively minor.
I don't think chase timers would work. You have stealth killers who can get quick tags without being in chase, but our otherwise overall very weak, you have killers like Huntress that can hit or miss hatchets without ever being in chase to begin with.
You also have issues like survivors who stay just out of chase and it doesn't actually get tracked.
If anything, I suspect we'll just get a more gradient system. A killer who gets a 3e with 8 hooks will lose less MMR than a 3e with 5 hooks. If so I think they'd do the same for survivors, a 4k with 4 gens done would be a lower MMR loss than a 4k with 2 gens complete.
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spreadsheet will show that those perks are overused.I'd actually take spreadsheet changes, if they were consistent about it and clear. Just something like 'X perk is overperforming by Y amount in the following MMR brackets (or all MMR).'
I'll also take changes that they do for the sake of gameplay, again if they were just clear. We (BHVR) think the following is a problem for this reason, here's why we don't think the community like it, here's how we'll fix it.
Unfortunately we get mix of radio silence filled in with meandering hard to listen to live streams.
We had anti-tunnel system implemeneted - killers feedback made developers scrape the idea, they got rid of it.Still amazes me that BHVR thought this was something worth doing, pitched it way ahead (six or seven months?), spent time developing it, and then just threw it in the garbage. Either they massively failed at understanding their customers or they executed it horriifically (or both).
Basekit BT is being shortened - something that helped us a lot when killer went for immidiate tunnel.The one sliver of anti-tunnel changes that were promised is also on the chopping block.
Why are surviviors giving their feedback and nothing is being done about it?Somehow BHVR ran exit surveys for years and the community was able to convince them 'nah, don't listen to that' and we're back to changes being made because…none of us really know.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101526#Comment_4101526
Or perhaps the reason you came to that conclusion is that you have only been matched against low-MMR Survivors who do not know how to use the current pallet setups effectively.
Ah, the classic. The person in question is not mindlessly complaining how unfair it is for Killer, so they must be low MMR. I probably played more Killer than you have overall hours. And from the Builds my opponents use, I have to assume they know at least a bit what they are doing.
I am at the Soft Cap of the MMR. This does not mean that I am extremely high MMR (nobody knows that), but I face opponents I know have very high MMR, so I am at least at the Soft Cap. Might be barely above it, might be way above it, nobody knows.
Main Buildings and loops being weaker than they used to be is a separate question from whether current pallet generation is balanced. Fewer windows, shorter loops, or removed breakable walls do not automatically mean the number and placement of pallets are healthy.
This is not a separate question. When they increased the volume of Pallets, they also reduced Pallets in Main Buildings (e.g. the Main Building on the Asylum Map only features one Pallet anymore), removed Breakable Walls (Groaning Storehouse and Gas Haven dont have the strong breakable Walls in their Main Building anymore) or removed Windows (the Main Building on Chapel does not feature the best Window anymore). And they made Loops overall shorter which resulted in more Pallets, but more unsafe ones. Yet when Pallets were reduced again, none of the changes before were reverted. This combined with the fact that maps became more and more unsafe over the years (strong structures get removed, added by way weaker structures) made the Killer experience overall better. The only thing which remained from Pallet Density is basically that it added some Filler Pallets. Basically:
Old: Two Jungle Gyms next to each other, both having a safe Pallet —> Pre Pallet Density: Those Jungle Gyms got replaced with much weaker Loops without compensation —> Post Pallet Density: Filler Pallet got added between those. And this is overall a fair change. More unsafe Pallets > better gameplay than very few super safe Pallets.
If the claim is that pallet density is objectively fine, it should be supported by things like average chase duration, pallet counts, spacing between resources, tile connectivity, and how different killers are affected—not a few days of personal experience.
This is the biggest head scratcher for me. Why do I have to provide proof, but every bad Killer Main who complains that the game is SO HARD for Killer does not have to provide anything? If someone complains about Pallet Density, they should provide gameplay. Because then we would actually see if there is an issue or if the player can improve. We get screenshots at best, often enough just rants without proof. Yet I am required to bring proof, others not?
We get screenshots at best, often enough just rants without proof.Don't forget the classic - sure it was a 4k, but…
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@cogsturning said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101834#Comment_4101834
Can you prove that? Because it says you don't need to record for things like griefing, and I know for a fact they ban for it. It specifically says you must make an in-game report but you don't need to record. So for all we know they're backward recording those matches that get flagged.
They've said they don't record matches. However, they do have game stats for basically everything. So if they have a stat for survivor escaped killer grasp (especially with drops), that survivor was in chase with the killer but not hit, but a different survivor was hit and downed (especially if the 2nd survivor was close), and then the downed survivor files a report, well we're past a lot of burdens of doubt on this being collusion.
I have no idea how many of those stats they actually have, but it shouldn't be too hard to put together enough data that covers the vast majority of collusion reports (because this does seem to be one of the things they ban players over).
Of course, a video recording would probably make that a lot easier.
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I kind of feel about them the way I did when they were announced. Its annoying more than game changing. It was a massively heavy handed and overly complex way to address a few builds were mixing perks could get values to points that the game broke down, and in return if you think of putting two healing perks together and its like 'oh, right, that sucks now'.
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@Flopkween said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4101654#Comment_4101654
If the common problem is vigil then why not just only nerf vigil?! Why touch the other perks?
Sadly that's just how BHVR functions - if something is a problem they nuke every possible aspect and burn it out of the game.
SB as a perk by itself it really well designed - it trades off having to make decisions about walking to preserve it (but thus wasting time that could be doing something else) or using it to get to gen (but risk it not being recovered when a killer finds you). Its a great measure of game sense on when to use it and as an early player perk helps people learn that skill.
Unfortunate we might lose that.
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RNGbased mechanicDbD is an incredibly RNG based game - that variability is a pretty big part of what the game is.
1v1's would get boring really quickly, plus also be hard to balance on the time based on who the killer is.
The hatch does not have skill expression, plus, it ends up giving survivorsless MMRif they do escape through it.Do you mean in comparison to the doors? Because the hatch is MMR neutral.
The Hatchis a incredibly weird,True, but the problem is that the basics of the game really break down once it gets to a 2v1 and then a 1v1. I think Hatch is about the best idea they could do without totally reimagining the game.
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Perk 1: If the survivor knows what they are doing, when they become oblivious, they know the killer is 32 m away, defeating the point of being oblivious.
Perk 2: I don't know if we need to stack blindness on top of oblivious. This seems either useless or broken against soloq depending on how frequently oblivious can be put in. Blindness is already a troublesome stat given the vast difference between SWFs and soloq on how much it hurts.
Perk 3: Tier 1 is fine, but I don't really like the idea of helping out bloodlust. Tier 2 seems meaningless. Tier 3, no, that's just silly.
Perk 4: I don't think we should mess around with how fast bloodlust is gained.
Perk Rework: So they are blind and hindered? What are they supposed to do?
Perk 5: Again, this seems to be either useless or broken depending on what killers/perks come out in the future. Also a killer would likely heavily invest into their build to pull it off, and if the survivors have Vigil they are in a lot of trouble.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100837#Comment_4100837
In your killer abandon scenario I think most abandons would happen on the chase out the door rather than get hook > abandon. I like to keep my suggestions as simple but if they could code in something for the hooked scenario that'd be great. However, with basekit BT lasting for 66m I don't think this save scenario is gameplay worth saving either for most killers. No matter the case, there isn't much point in speculating without actually trying it out.
I should not have said solution, as there are no perfect solutions in DbD. Arguably I can't even say improvement, because we're wasting 10-20 seconds of the survivors time most of the time for no enjoyment. It would be a compromise.
The reason I suggested it is because it is simple and easy to implement, which unfortunately kind of necessary for BHVR. They tend not to implement sophisticated solutions and when they do they don't turn out right. How the abandon system negates MMR changes is a perfect example of that.
I don't think the 10-20 second delay is worthless MMR-wise either. That time would allow the killer to sacrifice 1-2 survivors before they can abandon which would preserve the MMR changes that should be happening in this scenario but don't because the abandon system is poorly implemented.
Also I don't care wasting about 10-20 seconds of survivor time in games when they get stomped because killers don't have a similar option when they get stomped. 10-20 seconds is still way better than what we had before abandons where Slugging Sally could waste 4 minutes of those survivors' time.
What are you on about with that exit gate coding crap. I never suggesting anything like that. It's all still part of the 60s after a gate opens>resign option I've been pushing. You're just pointing out another scenario I have already thought of which is why I suggest a simple 60s rule. Also the 60s rule would have a knock-on effect: once survivors know it's in place they'd leave more often on their own instead of waiting just to bm.
In your killer abandon scenario I think most abandons would happen on the chase out the door rather than get hook > abandon.Maybe you are correct, but the important part is the 'I think'.
What if your guess about how other humans will behave is wrong? If killers in this situation abandon when the game is competitive, you're having an impact*. It's not going to destroy the game or anything like that, but there will be instances (I think potentially pretty common) of games that a kill(s) could have still been secured that the killer abandoned, both affecting player experience and overall stats.
This happens on the survivor side as well, except circumstances outweigh what the players will do. The situation they are in is so dire that the amount of times they can successfully progress the games are extraordinarily rare, so how players will behave is not critical to the impact because it is such a rare exception.
*The impact would likely also be felt more or less in different regions - some regions seem to love 99ing the gates, others seem to always open them right away. A person in a region where gates are always 99ed would think this is a rare occurrence, but in some regions this would probably come up regularly.
I don't think the 10-20 second delay is worthless MMR-wise either. That time would allow the killer to sacrifice 1-2 survivors before they can abandon which would preserve the MMR changes that should be happening in this scenario but don't because the abandon system is poorly implemented.We've received contradictory information from mods, but I think the most senior person we've heard from has said that abandoning doesn't circumvent MMR loss. Even if it did, there's a much simpler way to address that.
Also I don't care wasting about 10-20 seconds of survivor time in games when they get stomped because killers don't have a similar option when they get stomped.When did we start talking about getting stomped? You can get to the loss condition and stuck there regardless of how competitive the match was.
You're also allowed to care or not care about anything you want, but its not really fruitful when BHVR has to care about all the players.
10-20 seconds is still way better than what we had before abandons where Slugging Sally could waste 4 minutes of those survivors' time.Old DH (unlimited usage) was better than old, old DH (distance with invincibility), but that doesn't mean people didn't have a right to complain about old DH just because it wasn't as bad as it used to be.
What are you on about with that exit gate coding crap. I never suggesting anything like that. It's all still part of the 60s after a gate opens>resign option I've been pushing.I'm not sure how it links to your overall idea, but ultimately being in the exit gates is easily circumvented - if the survivors aren't trolls, they are just going to leave, if they are trolls they are just going to stand slightly outside. Whether that happens with a 60s timer or not I don't think changes anything.
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@Wezqu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100989#Comment_4100989
Not really if the survivor in question is doing it to activate Inner Strength or Overzealous and 14 seconds is nothing really in a match that take 10-15 minutes at least.
1: That's a big if - in any other situation cleansing the totems is just a waste of time.
2: Even with those perks, the survivor has no reason to cleanse more than 1 totem, so it would still be a massive waste to cleanse all the totems.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100808#Comment_4100808
I'm not arguing that killers should be able to up and abandon at any point in the game.
I think the killer should be able to resign or abandon once a gate has been open for 60 seconds. A perfectly reasonable option. If the killer wants to keep contesting the match they don't have to resign. But if the killer doesn't have a target in sight and/or the survivors are just sitting in the exit gate, the killer should not have to push them out.
As for that slug scenario you're overcomplicating it. Instead of letting survivors instantly abandon they could add a 10-20 second delay so if someone has Unbreakable or something else they can make a play before the rest of the team becomes bots. A very simple solution.
I'll have to test Plot Twist if I ever get the motivation to play survivor again. Probably won't happen until Halloween and I'll forget.
I think the killer should be able to resign or abandon once a gate has been open for 60 seconds. A perfectly reasonable option.A game design proposal isn't a question of being reasonable or not by itself. Its a question of what do be want in the game (subjective) and what type of gameplay will occur based on that change (predictive).
If the killer wants to keep contesting the match they don't have to resign.I'm, openly, a proponent of more abandon options. I hate the end game as killer, especially when it gets drawn out, and have no attachment to my kill rate. If I had a survivor on hook and the others were gathering for the save (especially if I had to wait for them to heal up), I'd probably just abandon and move onto a more interesting game (right now I play it out to be a good sport, but if there was an abandon that is the game is giving me permission to leave).
Now maybe I'm extremely rare, but if I'm not, what happens? (players like me don't have to be common, even 1 out of 20 would have an impact) Lots of survivors get unsatisfying end games and kill rates overall drop. The change in design (potentially, but I think likely) has a rather profound effect on the game (compare to survivor abandon with four downs, if that didn't exist I doubt it would make any meaningful impact on the kill rate data).
Instead of letting survivors instantly abandon they could add a 10-20 second delay so if someone has Unbreakable or something else they can make a play before the rest of the team becomes bots. A very simple solution.Simple yes, but is it a solution?
We now have three scenarios where this comes up
1: All the survivors are downed, no one has a perk that would make a difference, thus everyone has to wait 10 to 20 seconds for no reason. By itself no issue in a single game, but incredibly annoying when dozens/hundreds/thousands of games are taken into account.
2: A survivor does have a perk that allows them to get back up/off the hook. We now have two situations:
A: they get other survivors up and the game becomes competitive. This is the situation where obviously we don't want survivors to abandon.
B: the survivor gets back up, but is downed by the killer with no realistic chance of actually advancing the game. I'd say this just draws out the game in an unnecessary manner.
I'd also add the same argument
If the killer wants to keep contesting the match they don't have to resign.applies here - survivors don't have to abandon if they don't want to (and now can see each others perks). So if someone has unbreakable (or related perk) and a chance to get back up, the survivors can stay in. Except that isn't what happens, people just take the abandon, which is exactly what would happen on the killer side.3: Survivors do have a perk that allows them to get back up, but is crawling/waiting for the right time to trigger it, but the abandon option triggers before that. The simple solution thus still leaves the 'problem' in some instances (frequency depending on timer).
I believe situation 2A to be extremely rare that the survivors are able to meaningfully to advance the game after everyone is dead/down/hooked, thus making a 10 to 20 second timer just wasteful in the vast majority of instances.
and/or the survivors are just sitting in the exit gateThis is another example of just coding issues. If you make it so the killer can leave when the survivors are in the exit gate trolling, then trolls just stand slightly outside the exit gate to troll. It's a time waster that doesn't actually bring a solution to the problem.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100800#Comment_4100800
If the killer is done the game is over, simple as that. Killers shouldn't have to push them out or wait out the full 2 minutes almost every time because frequently there is a survivor that waits until the last second to leave.
If you want to use that logic then it can be argued that survivors should not be able to instantly abandon once everyone is slugged because what if Unbreakable, Conviction etc. Heck if the last survivor standing has Plot Twist and are injured they can down themself and insta-abandon, which is ridiculous.
If the killer is done the game is over, simple as thatIf at any point one side just stops playing the game is over. The game could be 15 seconds in and if the killer stops playing the game is over. That doesn't mean we should just go to abandon at any point of the game.
If you want to use that logic then it can be argued that survivors should not be able to instantly abandon once everyone is slugged because what if Unbreakable, Conviction etcLet's say BHVR spent time, that could be spent on bugs or new content, coding to detect whether any survivor has an active Unbreakable, Conviction, or other perk that would allow to get them off the ground, and if any was in play then the abandon would not appear.
If they wasted the time doing that, would you agree that survivors should be the only ones to have the abandon option in this scenario? Or is it a red herring to the issue?
Heck if the last survivor standing has Plot Twist and are injured they can down themself and insta-abandon, which is ridiculous.It shouldn't as plot twist doesn't trigger the abandon mechanic - something they put in when they introduced abandons just based on killer worries about a hypothetical.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100489#Comment_4100489
It’s not a massive expansion of the abandon system. It’s simply letting killers abandon when gates are open and the game is already over. Killers can stay and try to get more kills if they want - that’s their choice. If the don’t want to try to get more kills, then why do we demand that they stay in the match? That’s the only question that needs to be answered and people are still avoiding it.
That’s the only question that needs to be answered and people are still avoiding it.Not really, people focus on what gets talked about, when you say things like this:
Then match is over. Survivors get to DC for free once the match is over.People are going to talk about that because those are are not correct. The match is frequently not over and its not equivalent to when the survivors get to DC because their scenario the match is almost always over. You can't use one side as example when that sides example is different from what is being asked for.
Killers can stay and try to get more kills if they want - that’s their choice. If the don’t want to try to get more kills, then why do we demand that they stay in the match?Why demand anyone stay in the match? Some people are fine with more people leaving, others think it ruins the game when people nope out of competitive games.
If you want a system where people can leave more frequently, go for it, there's lots of examples on the survivor side that would have an equivalent argument, but it would be a pretty big expansion based on what currently exists.
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@OrionQc24 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100502#Comment_4100502
Or their QA could simply test it as they are paid to do. Like it happened twice today it isn't a rare occurrence and I already said on which platform. I work in QA and I certainly won't do their job for free they can pay me or send their testers to investigate.
I work in QA and I certainly won't do their job for free they can pay me or send their testers to investigate.So you're going to take the time to post about it, but not the time to do a little more than that? Posting the video would be even less time than what you have done so far.
@OrionQc24 said:
Also how the option not appearing during the death animation wouldn't be a bug ? XD
Why would it? That's not an abandon condition.
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1: Because its not primarily about balance, its about making the most enjoyable game (this is something both sides talk about). Slugging is boring (it doesn't have the variability, tension, or uncertainty of hooks) and it requires relatively little skill expression from the killer.
2: Circular nature. A slugged survivor has no basekit protection, so you face the possibility of getting picked up/downed again and again (why BVHR added the abandon option instead of actually addressing it I don't know). Even tunneled as a survivor when you get unhooked you are back to playing a game.
3: Slug for the 4k complaints get lumped in with the larger complaints about slugging as if they are the same.
You dont activate the killers strongest perk.A killer who knows they are going to slug doesn't bring those perks.
You can move to a better spot to be saved.Ah, the joy of crawling.
Your saved faster if fully recovered.That's a big if. The alternative is that you are staying a substantial amount of time out of the match (on balance sides this also means that if another survivor is downed while the other survivors wait for you to manually recover, the survivor side can quickly collapse).
You dont gain hook states.That's like saying an advantage to hooking is you don't lose bleedout timer or an advantage to survivors gen rushing is the killer won't get pallet stunned as much.
The only down side is you dont get to active your hooked perks but the same can be said about anti slugging perks if your hooked.The 'anti-slug' perks are basically all about not being slugged more. The hook perks give a variety of features that make the game more interesting.
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@OrionQc24 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100490#Comment_4100490
I used the exit bc it didn't give me the abandon option (I'm on ps5) idk if it's a bug but it didn't show me to press the thing to leave
If you don't have the abandon option, you disconnected, which gives you the DC penalty. That's not a bug.
It might be a bug if it didn't appear or appeared too quickly for your friend, but they'd need more details on the specifics. If your friend was able to show you his side you could post that video here or into the bug reports section.
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@Your_Dad_Playing_DbD said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100378#Comment_4100378
All they would need to do is either program the killer bot stand still until the match ends or go to check open gates and try to M1 any survivors in the area. That can be done easily for all killers, so there’s no excuse. Any honest player will admit that there is no good reason to force a killer player to stay in the match once the gates are open. Then match is over. Survivors get to DC for free once the match is over. Literally the only reason to force killer players to stay in the match once gates are open is increase the opportunities for teabagging at the exit gates. If someone wants to provide an actual legit reason to require killer to stay in the match, I’m happy to listen.
If someone wants to provide an actual legit reason to require killer to stay in the match, I’m happy to listen.I don't have a problem with the idea of killers being able to abandon, but being we're discussing players being honest, it would honestly be a massive expansion of the abandon system.
The chance of the survivors making a comeback when all survivors are down, hooked, or dead is very, very rare. If they don't have the right perks its literally impossible for them to do it on their own and requires the killer to troll (intentionally let one get back up by picking up and dropping repeatedly, just face camping until the meter triggers), and even with one of the right perks this is such a disadvantageous situation for the survivors that progressing the objective is still extremely unlikely.
On the other hand, killers gaining kills after the gates are open is a normal occurrence, it happens frequently. Nothing about the gates being open signifies the game is over. The better comparison would be all to the survivors standing at the exit gate line, but as covered in other posts trying to put an abandon option in there has its own issues.
So one is a situation where advancing the objective is extraordinarily rare if not impossible and the other advancing the objective commonly happens.
Additionally, the killer has the ability to open the gates. They would have the power to trigger the abandon. BHVR took the time to make it so plot twist could not trigger abandon, it is something the player doesn't have the power to do, but something that is done to them.
Honestly, giving the killer the option to abandon at gates being open would be like if survivors could abandon if someone was hard tunneled (the actual topic of this thread), an unfavorable situation, but not one where they cannot progress.
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@Doctor_Xenomorph said:
Vigil is one of the most divisive utility perks available to survivors. While it doesn't directly improve repair speed, healing, or chase potential on its own, it reduces the duration of nearly every temporary negative status effect by 66%. In exchange for a single perk slot, Vigil can significantly increase the value of several other perks and mechanics throughout the match.
Its strength comes from synergy. Vigil is most commonly paired with exhaustion perks like Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, Lithe, and Balanced Landing, allowing survivors to regain access to these powerful chase tools much sooner. It also shortens the duration of many other temporary effects, helping survivors recover from killer pressure more quickly. Although it requires dedicating a perk slot purely for support, it can dramatically increase the effectiveness of an entire build.
If Vigil is considered a balanced perk, then I think there is a strong case for a killer equivalent.
Instead of reducing the duration of negative effects, a killer version would increase the duration of temporary effects applied to survivors. This could include effects like Blindness, Oblivious, Hindered, Exposed, Hemorrhage, Mangled, aura reveals, and other time-limited debuffs. Just as Vigil amplifies the value of survivor perks without creating any new effects itself, a killer counterpart would simply increase the value of killer perks, add-ons, and powers that already inflict those effects.
At its core, the concept is the same: one side can dedicate a perk slot to making temporary status effects wear off faster, so it seems reasonable that the other side could dedicate a perk slot to making those same types of effects last longer.
If Vigil is considered a balanced perk, then I think there is a strong case for a killer equivalent.It's widely not considered balanced by the community.
At its core, the concept is the same: one side can dedicate a perk slot to making temporary status effects wear off faster,Sure, there's nothing wrong with this in concept.
1: Implementation - Vigil at 20% would be too weak, 40% seemed okay, 66% is probably too strong. A perk like you suggest would have the exact same balance issues. This is an issue not about whether a perk idea is conceptually okay, but where the numbers would best balance (true for all perks).
2: Variety of killers - This is a standard difficulty of comparing survivors to killers. The perk not only has to be balanced around all the possible killers who could use it, but their addons - the survivor side only has to worry about possible perk synergy (item pool is pretty limited and doesn't add much outside the items designed to clearly benefit them). That's a huge additional layer of difficulty for actually making a perk like this.
so it seems reasonable that the other side could dedicate a perk slot to making those same types of effects last longer.It's an asym. Both sides are radically different, just because something works for one side doesn't mean it works for the other. In this case I could see such a perk existing, but its a bad rationale to get there.
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@Mandy said:
With this, it means that software that you have on your system so things like software that controls RBG lighting will need to be updated, the older versions are vulnerable which cheats piggybacking off them (so to speak).
If you do not update, the game will not start and you will get a message telling you what needs to be updated / removed.
The list is extensive, depending on the software, manufacturer etc so we're unable to provide a full list.
I'm not really worried about this, but:
The list is extensive, depending on the software, manufacturer etc so we're unable to provide a full list.If you have the list, what prevents it from being provided? You don't have to do it in game, a simple searchable file online would do the trick.
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@Carth said:
I disagree on a few points
"It got killers to swap up who they played"
This is bad. Can you imagine an inverse event where all insta downs turned into single health state detractors just for the fun of the event? Billy/buba/certain perk users just get to "lose" just cause. How is this a pro or a good benefit unless you hate typical meta picks and loved seeing more bubba/billy/plague vs ghouls.
"It gave survivors a secondary objective"
That was obnoxiously broken, sure. We can play this same game on the inverse side. What if we made it so if you hook a survivor that is not the last survvior that has been hooked the gen with the most progress regresses to 0%. sounds like we just fixed tunneling ya, or is it a blatantly broken effect? Much like the banquets effects."It gave survivors a secondary objective"That was obnoxiously broken, sure. We can play this same game on the inverse side. What if we made it so if you hook a survivor that is not the last survvior that has been hooked the gen with the most progress regresses to 0%. sounds like we just fixed tunneling ya, or is it a blatantly broken effect? Much like the banquets effects.Except that's not a new objective. Hooking survivors is the killer's objective - your comparison would be like if an event rewarded survivors more for partnering up on gens instead of giving them something else to spend their time on.
A new objective for killer would be something totally new, like collect cakes and take them to a designated tray to reset a a gen to zero. Would it be a good idea? It's not a bad idea, it would depend on implementation.
@Carth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4100029#Comment_4100029
I feel like we are stuck in a circle at tis point.
""only meta killers" = "obnoxius killers" = "complained about killers" = "buffs" = "cycle repeats".
If the idea is "bad killers" can't complain about being bad, than surely the same can be extended to survivors ya? If you aren't running a strong survivor loadout or speaking with buddies on coms you lose the right to complain. Just like the example above. "why are you playing trapper/ghostfacee when they are so bad".If the idea is "bad killers" can't complain about being bad, than surely the same can be extended to survivors ya? If you aren't running a strong survivor loadout or speaking with buddies on coms you lose the right to complain. Just like the example above. "why are you playing trapper/ghostfacee when they are so bad".But if survivors run an awful build that is the first thing that gets pointed out. If a survivor was running Invocation builds and they complained about losing, the first thing people would tell them to do is stop running Invocation builds.
As for SWFs - you're comparing someone having to organize a group, practice with them, seek out players who they fit best with - to which of the killers a player chooses to select on the screen.
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The people we refer to as the devs, those in charge, have hundreds of employees at BHVR (actually over a 1000 but most of them work on non-DbD things). I really doubt the issue is that there is a lack of time for someone like Cote to crack open the codebase and scour for bugs or that BHVR has become so magnanimous they want to give their workers even more time off.
Bugs are likely do to either something with the game itself (i.e. what we call spaghetti code) or some structural issue that is preventing them from finding them. Might the mod community solve some of the bugs? Sure, but I think they might also encounter the same thing BHVR does of even minor changes causing new and unpredictable bugs.
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I don't think Reassurance was ever that strong, and I tried a lot to make it work.
Mainly, even under the old system, it didn't actually help.
If the survivors were coordinated/focused, the killer face camped, and the survivor on hook was fine making all the saves and sitting there for two minutes, that was enough time for three coordinated survivors to do nothing but gens and the gates and leave (because its not like the survivor went down instantly).
If the survivors weren't coordinated/focused, or the hooked survivor just goes down instantly, it just doesn't matter much.
If you were worried about the situation, you could just run a perk to help you do gens more quickly, which would also be beneficial in other trials were the killer didn't facecamp.
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@HoodedWildKard said:
No I'm not complaining about tunneling in general, i tend to be understanding of the concept. The thing I have an issue with is the worst kind of tunneling. Standard tunneling is whatever, if you find a double hooked surv and a no hook surv on a gen, you have a choice and the double hooked surv is the tactical choice every time. I'm talking about hard repeatedly tunneling the same surv off hook to the exclusion of all others straight off the bat. Heck I'm not even that fussed about tunneling straight off hook if it's done mid-late game.
It's this situation. Killer gets their first hook after a realtively short chase, realises that surv is mid/weak at chase. Killer then proxy camps said hook, maybe they manage to force the surv to stage, then as soon as the surv is unhooked, they hit them off hook and commit to the exclusively chase them again down them quickly rinse repeat. You get one survivor dead at 4-5 gens left. That one survivor has no chance to play the game, and the rest of the team is screwed because the game is not supposed to be a 3v1. We've all had games like that.
There has to be a system where the game can recognise that the killer is focusing out one player to the exclusion of all others. In the specific situation where you have 2 hooks on the same player, 0 hooks on anyone else and they are chasing the 2 hooked player there should be some kind of game intervention. Something that stops this kind of play dead. Peehsps a system where the surv on taking the second hit straight off of hook gets teleported to thebopposite side of the map and insta hesled or just invincibility or invisibility that gets cancelled if the killer hooks another player or if a survivor struggles out (obvs I wouldn't want to see survs abusing a mechanic like this for free bodyblocks) this would give the tunneled surv an opportunity to get out of the killer's sight and have a chance to heal and actually try to counter play by going stealthy so they can still achieve something in the match.
Normally it's fairly rare but I've seen an uptick in this kind of play from killers over the last couple of weeks, probably killers getting tilted by black banquet, and an awful lot of jasons too. I'm sure some people will simply call skill issue over this, but this type of tunneling is immensely easy for killers to do and very difficult for all but the best survivor teams to effectively prevent. By the time you realise how hard killer is committing to this it's usually too late to simply genrush. And it literally tanks the game, one surv gets next to no bp and is dead within minutes of the game starting. And the rest of the team is screwed unless there is a wild skill gap between killer and the 3 remaining survivors and they just so happened to demonise the 1 weak surv in a group.
As the thread kind of got lost in the weeds, to go back to the original idea:
In the specific situation where you have 2 hooks on the same player, 0 hooks on anyone else and they are chasing the 2 hooked player there should be some kind of game intervention. Something that stops this kind of play dead. Peehsps a system where the surv on taking the second hit straight off of hook gets teleported to thebopposite side of the map and insta hesled or just invincibility or invisibility that gets cancelled if the killer hooks another player or if a survivor struggles out (obvs I wouldn't want to see survs abusing a mechanic like this for free bodyblocks) this would give the tunneled surv an opportunity to get out of the killer's sight and have a chance to heal and actually try to counter play by going stealthy so they can still achieve something in the match.Starting off - BHVR doesn't seem to ever want to do it, but I don't think it would be bad for the game if survivors (outside of EGC) just came off the hook intangible (and maybe even invisible). They can't bodyblock, the killer can't hit them.
Let's say we aren't doing that and just want to focus on the hard tunnel
I think teleporting is a little too random. I'd try 'if a survivor is unhooked, and has been hooked twice, and no other survivor has been hook, they are instantly healed, have 60 seconds of all the current bonuses (with current conspicuous action rules).' You can even put a limitation that this only applies if less than 4 gens have been completed.
If the killer can tunnel through that its probably such an extreme mismatch that nothing is going to change the game.
I agree that I think it would be healthy for the game to do more to eliminate the hard tunnel.
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Like usually happens, I missed most of the anniversary because of busyness, but I did get to play a good number of games toward the end.
I do like that they tried out new things. This is something else people encourage them - go ahead, try crazy stuff, experiment, but then BHVR gets backlash when its not perfect. Honestly I hope they keep events like this where they take big swings at ideas - 1v4 is still there, and when they hit on a good idea they can replicate it.
As for the event itself - I feel like the killer getting something that more directly countered what the survivors where doing via the food and/or more information about the survivor progress would have helped.
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@ForTheEntity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099545#Comment_4099545
Sure Nightlight might be a higher MMR snapshot than official stats but it's still completely useless information.
As for that Lich stat, I'd argue that's a product of DbD's poor tutorials. The Lich has a pretty complicated power.
I know from experience during the event that there are a lot of new survivors who are absolutely clueless about killer mechanics. Survivors who aren't mending against a Legion who left them to their own devices.
BHVR is looking at skewed stats rather than making the learning curve easier they make the game easier for survivors overall.
but it's still completely useless information.I'm going to guess you meant to put a 'not' into this part.
Unfortunately though, it is completely useless. We don't know who is submitting the data, only that it is way off on multiple metrics from what BHVR posts and is not even consistent on their own site.
If Lich had an 80% KR on Nightlight and BHVR said it was 65%, would you be taking them seriously?
BHVR is looking at skewed stats rather than making the learning curve easier they make the game easier for survivors overall.One thing this argument admits is that survivor has more things to pick up than killer, because they don't provide anymore of a tutorial on how to play killers. If one side literally has a harder learning curve, whether it has tutorials or not, is really important when evaluating the two sides.
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I both agree and disagree.
You're focused very much on the micro game play. Against certain killers the survivors have to play much more of a macro game - chases won't be long, so they have to push gens and save at the right time.
Ideally I think its healthy when both elements of the game are encouraged on both sides, which is why I think the killers you list are good examples of healthy gameplay. So I agree in the sense that the micro gameplay should have clearer skill elements on both sides for most of the killers, but the macro gameplay is an important part of how the game is designed.
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@Xernoton said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099421#Comment_4099421
1: You have no one to let down but yourself. Personally, I care far, far more about what happens when I'm in a team than playing individually. No one likes losing in either scenario, but if I make a bad play as survivor it bothers me far more than if I do as killer as I have not just let down myself, but three others.
I think most players care first and foremost about their own experience. There is nothing wrong with that but other players will be lower on their list of priorities. People rage quitting the game has been pretty common for years. That goes against caring about anyone other than yourself, which again is fine, if you don't go out of your way to make the game less fun for everyone else.
Most survivor players do an objective and don't think about all the other possibilities. Because they don't have enough information to even begin playing on that meta level. Competitive teams definitely do at least as much micro managing as the killer but these are extreme cases and don't apply to your average survivor. For a solo player it is unrealistic to even acquire all the information needed for that, so it's out of your control and something you can accept a bit easier.
You can see that someone is in chase, and you get to see what your team mates are doing. That's enough to have an idea of whether or not it is "safe" for you to sit on a gen or go for a rescue. Gens become a sort of down time for survivors because it means you do an objective without having to stress about it. There isn't too much you can do wrong when repairing a gen and you get a warning whenever the killer gets closer via their terror radius.
I'd argue you don't have anything like that as a killer. Even when you end a chase and go to hook a survivor, you're constantly thinking about how you need to be somewhere else or whether or not you can afford the time to pick a hook that might be more advantagious.
Alternative: Kind of dealt with this above. The control is a relief. From the start of the match there are a lot less unknowns to worry about, I see the gens, picked the killer, and can make a general plan really quickly. While constantly doing something as killer, I'm deciding what to do (edit to add: much like a horror movie, where you build tension via quietness, those moments of 'am I safe? am I doing the right thing? what's going on? are far more stressful than the killer who never has the need to stew). As survivor though there are a lot of factors outside of my control, what the killer decides to do or the play of the other survivors.
I'm not sure that knowing about your impact on the match will aleviate some of the stress you feel. Mostly because it is very rare that you start off chill and decide to play more serious later on. A rough start can kind of ruin your game (no matter the side you play), so most killers try to play as best as they can from the very beginning. When you see that that's not enough, you won't immediately think that you just need to do one or two things differently but that there is nothing you, with your skills and the information you have, can do better right this second. You just feel powerless even though you should be the one in control.
Alternative: Kind of like the winning point. As killer I set up the strategy, but survivors have to do the work and beat it. Far more stressful as survivor to be doing that in the moment. If as killer my strategy is bad, I can see where I went wrong and take as much time to readjust as I need and/or the fact it wins far more outweighs.
As a survivor, you mostly react to the killer. So there is less stressing involved about what the other side might or might not do. You do less predictions outside of chase and even in chase, there are a bunch of check spots around many loops that make a tile far safer, if you know how to use them.
When playing killer, you constantly try and play around hypotheticals. You could predict that someone is going for a save, a gen can still be defended, or 2 survivors are somewhere healing and you try account for that mostly by going there to stop that. If you are wrong, the survivors don't have to compensate. They just behave differently than you expected, which means you waste time. The risk is entirely on you. The survivors don't even know you make that prediction until it either pays off or it doesn't.
I'm not arguing that there is no stress involved when playing survivor but I don't think it's as much as playing killer, which makes killer anxiety a more prevalent phenomenon.
@FerrousFacade covered a lot of this quite well, but I'll add on a few notes. I'm going to start by commenting about something you said at the end.
I'm not arguing that there is no stress involved when playing survivor but I don't think it's as much as playing killer, which makes killer anxiety a more prevalent phenomenon.It's not a competition and would be impossible to determine anyway without a mass survey of the player base.
I find the topic fascinating in the sense that people have completely different takes on it and are very convinced that their feeling must be universal.
Having been in the topic a lot, my point is relatively simple. Some people find A stressful, but not B. Some people find B stressful, but not A. We can talk about why we feel that way or not, but there is no 'factual' nature to the claim and both groups seem to be pretty large.
Anyway, onto the rest of the post.
I think most players care first and foremost about their own experience.Eh, I don't know. Obviously players care about their own experience, but I see survivors frequently sacrifice themselves for their teammates, sometimes even giving up escapes on the possibility of getting someone else out.
People rage quitting the game has been pretty common for years.But rage quitting isn't a really good indication of how people actually feel, its literally an act of rage over a momentary anger over something. They're so upset that without thinking through the consequences they quit the game.
Most survivor players do an objective and don't think about all the other possibilities. Because they don't have enough information to even begin playing on that meta level.I don't think that's true at all. Again, I think the lack of information is what makes it more stressful. The survivor has to debate possible courses of action without knowing the full picture (in this sense I think a 4 person SWF is less stressful, comp is a different topic being they actually have money on the line which adds its own stress factors).
There isn't too much you can do wrong when repairing a gen and you get a warning whenever the killer gets closer via their terror radius.1: Takes out stealth killers and perks that hide the killer.
2: Uncertainty of where they are coming even with the TR. If survivors Shift-W every time they hear the TR they are going to lose lots of gen progress. Not to mention stressful situations like 'do I have enough time to finish the gen before he gets here' or 'should I hide? which way do I lead him?'
I'd argue you don't have anything like that as a killer. Even when you end a chase and go to hook a survivor, you're constantly thinking about how you need to be somewhere else or whether or not you can afford the time to pick a hook that might be more advantagious.I'd argue the killer has this exactly with full knowledge.
I'm in a chase, I down a survivor and pick them up. At this point I should already know what hook I'm taking them too. I likely also have a pretty good idea on where I'm going next (maybe the gen I chased them off of, maybe back to the 3 gen, maybe I spotted someone working on a gen). There's no need to be 'constantly thinking' in the same way as the survivor, you have all the information you need (edit to add: to clarify, I don't inherently associate being 'busy' with being 'stressed' when the busy isn't actually taxing decisions).
I don't get why having more information is more stressful. The killer has it, where is the struggle coming from on making the decision? Survivors meanwhile have to debate their decisions on incomplete information and worry they are making the wrong decision on the wrong information.
I'm not sure that knowing about your impact on the match will aleviate some of the stress you feel. Mostly because it is very rare that you start off chill and decide to play more serious later on. A rough start can kind of ruin your game (no matter the side you play), so most killers try to play as best as they can from the very beginning. When you see that that's not enough, you won't immediately think that you just need to do one or two things differently but that there is nothing you, with your skills and the information you have, can do better right this second. You just feel powerless even though you should be the one in control.I'm not certain I know what you mean in this paragraph, I think I dealt with it above, if I haven't let me know.
As a survivor, you mostly react to the killer. So there is less stressing involved about what the other side might or might not do. You do less predictions outside of chase and even in chase, there are a bunch of check spots around many loops that make a tile far safer, if you know how to use them.Mostly react to the killer - I think this is an oversimplification. As killer if I see survivors doubling up a gen, I'm obviously going to push them off. I'm reacting to what they do. If survivors shift-W early I'm just reacting to what they do. Both sides actions can be dictated on what the other side does, I don't think that's really unique.
Chase - not really, the burden seems much more on survivor to not screw up the chase. Survivors have to worry about how to loop, but also keep track of where there teammates are so they don't lead the killer to them, when to risk leaving a loop, as well as any powers the killer might have that make them have to loop differently.
Check spots - I don't think narrowing it down to just the 'if know how' players is a good idea, but let's approach it for a moment (presume both sides know what they are doing). I as killer get to shack and the survivor seems to know how to perfectly run shack. I have a pretty simple decision to make based on the point in the game - is it worth my time to chase them until the window blocks/pallet gets used? If the killer pursues the survivor still has to execute running the loop perfectly, while the killer just has to follow and burn out the time and/or the survivor make a mistake.
When playing killer, you constantly try and play around hypotheticals.I don't know if the issue here is that some players just have an easier time predicting what one side is going to do. I find this far easier as killer. What gens the survivors are working on, the overall progress of the game, when it makes sense to go back for the hook - what's the next thing for the killer to do usually seems pretty obvious (especially if tunneling is okay, then the right decision is generally 'just tunnel out a survivor'). Of course there's times where I as a killer guess wrong, or that I guess right but just get outplayed, but seems far more frequent that I see survivors make the wrong decisions via confusion (because being four players instead of 1 is a disadvantage and adds more possibilities for mistakes and errors).
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To sum it up there seems to be two issues
1: Do teammates cause more stress? Does the player worry about them or does the player just shift blame to them?
2: The level of information. Does the level of information as killer cause you to stress, or does it lead to easy (edit: clear is probably a better word here) decision making? Does the incomplete information as survivor let the survivor stop worrying and just focus on what's in front of them, or does it make them think constantly about what might be happening and what they might need to do while debating multiple scenarios at the same time.
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4099542#Comment_4099542
Oh, accurate enough? Let's look at Lich. Official killrate, released 3 months ago, of 65%. Nightlight has him at 50%. That's not really accurate enough at all.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/J3OA25RT9AVI/1000014740.jpg
Oh, and it's based on less than 300 matches voluntarily uploaded to the site. No indication of how many people uploaded those matches. Heck, could have been one or two people. I'll stick to the official stats based on thousands of matches rather than a tiny sample size of a couple hundred cherry-picked ones from a site that excludes majority of the playerbase. But if those 296 games hold more weight for you, well, you do you boo. Good luck with that.
Nightlight is indeed pretty inaccurate. Which is unfortunate as it used to be more reliable.
Two other interesting ways to look at it:
Looking at the survivors, the highest survivor escape is Laurie with 62.96% and the lowest is Jonah with 41.61% - are Laurie players somehow escape 20% more than Jonah? It seems far more likely that there is either an issue with their data collection or who is uploading.
The other interesting thing about Nightlight and unreliability - if you go into survivors and look at perks by escape rate, the highest is Blood Rush at 49%, though it has a small sample size, the next lowest is Shoulder the Burden at 43.49%. That's roughly in line with BHVR's balancing metric and if look through all the perks many fall way below the list. Only 12 perks are above the 40% line and many of them aren't even very common.
Basically - if someone just looks at the Killer data, killer looks weaker than it should be, but if you look at all the data on the site, you starting seeing stats that don't line up with each other and many times survivors falling at or way below what the escape rate should be.
As you said, Nightlight's data doesn't line up with BHVR's, but its not even consistent across their own site.