Comments

• The first thing to do is to identify what makes the game "lost" at that point for the survivors, and the point is simple, survivors have 3 hook states and then they are out. Once the game is a 1v3, its effectively over at that point unless there's only 1, or MAYBE 2 gens left (if the killer massively messes up).

  We're getting a little bit away from the the original concept of first chase. The killer getting a survivor out before the gens get to a certain point does radically increase their chances of victory, absolutely true, but that's not just a first chase thing. We're more in anti-tunnel territory which BHVR says they have something coming for (and I'll save speculation on it until it comes).

  1. Survivors share the 1st hook state.
     1. This makes it so the earliest you can remove a survivor is on your 6th hook, assuming you have hooked that person the 5th and 6th time.
     2. Removing a survivor early isn't really possible, you'll have to get at least 6 hooks, which is half of your total goal, by then the game should be well on its way toward the 2nd half of the match.
     3. I say only the first, because i think if all hooks were shared, and you only could start killing survivors when you got 8 hooks it would feel really bad as a survivor player to be doing well, but my team "burns through all the hook stages" and then you have 1 bad chase and just immediately die.

  I ended my post by saying to fix it we would need to get into radical overhaul ideas, and this sounds like a pretty radical change. But I'll jump in as a hypothetical that BHVR would consider it and would be willing to rebalance/change all of the things/perks it would impact:

  This would be a pretty massive buff for survivors. You have suggestions for killer side coming but we're looking at a very different game. Not only would the tunnel out be impossible, survivors have no incentive to get off gens and prioritize protecting each other until after the 5th hook. If a survivor gets hooked twice in a row, instead of playing cautious they can just play normally and still attack the gens that most need to be done.

  The bigger issue though is fun and game theme. One of the things that makes survivor exciting is that you're never that far from an elimination. I feel like it would really tamp down on the tension, especially in the early game. As is, the survivor role doesn't have a ton of engagement factors, needing to be cautious and avoid elimination is one of the biggest elements.

  This is a general danger when trying to 'correct' game design. Yes, you can smooth out the lows, the worst games, but you risk losing the best games as well. DbD gains a lot of its fun from its elimination nature and elimination style games, by their very nature, have the potential to be lopsided, but the eliminations also add a huge element of the excitement.

  So basically, it could be done, it would require a lot of rebalancing, you'd take out the worst of the game outcomes, but I feel like the game might lose a lot of its appeal.

  1. Killers need some way to either:
     1. Make hooking faster, in a way that doesn't break the game
        1. So no like, remote hooking like the event, because it takes away too much
        2. No "move faster while carrying" because that also breaks the game if they can chase with a survivor on their back.
     2. Some basekit way to regress gens meaningfully after a hook

  Again, it kind of feels like we're getting away from the original thread concept of the first chase and to just general balance issues.

  Personally, I don't think the hook speed is a big issue. The survivor has a choice to make, run for the corner, or stay in the loop. If they get downed in the loop they are likely near a hook, if they run to the corner too quickly they've given up valuable time they could have spent looping the killer. If they pull it off perfectly that get rewarded, but good gameplay should result in rewards. Both sides can play around that element of gameplay.

  • Killers basekit regression is buffed, and the perks are nerfed. Things like:
    • Basekit gen kick to 10% (nerf pop and the like)
    • Basekit regression to 200%
    • Basekit surge at 5% (that works on special attacks) or basekit pain res at 10% (nerf those perks)
    • Basekit corrupt that lasts for say, 30 seconds.

  Let's say all of this balances out (which I think could generally be done).

  You're creating a slower, more methodical game. Except DbD is a sprint. The thing that makes it stand out is the feeling of tension and heart pumping excitement basically from the time the match starts.

  I, personally, don't think a DbD trial has the depth for longer matches as the norm. The pressure of the decision making frequently comes from the 'you must act now!' element when posed with options (take for example comparing a real time strategy game vs a turn based strategy game).

  Would some players enjoy such gameplay more? Absolutely, just as some would dislike it. We're now getting into subjective game design questions though.

  Gen times (and potentially regression) are adjusted the following way:

  • 5 gens left: 130 seconds per gen
  • 4 gens left: 110 seconds per gen
  • 3 gens left: 90 seconds per gen
  • 2 gens left: 70 seconds per gen
  • 1 gen left: 50 seconds per gen

  Given that gens are static I think you more mean you are impacting the survivors gen speed so

  -5 gens: ~0.7 charges a second

  -4 gens: ~0.8 chares a second

  -3 gens: as is

  -2 gens: ~1.2 charges a second

  -1 gen: ~1.8 charges a second (this one is way too fast)

  This is something I would love to see them test without anything else. I'm not sure if it would work or not, but I'd be very interested in the outcome. My gut reaction is that this would be a big survivor buff as higher speeds for the final gen is worth far more than taking longer early (the alternative possibility is that every game leads to a 3 gen as the killer has plenty of time to protect his most important gens early in the match).

  These are just a handful of ideas that, would be hard to say how well they would work without actually testing them. But there are plenty of ideas and things they could do that could even out the early game for both sides in a way that is fun and engaging without breaking the rest of the game.

  There are always plenty of ideas. I suspect, just based on what I know of other game companies, that there are some ideas we would consider radical that have been batted around in discussion and potentially testing that never even make it to a public announcement because its decided they don't work.

  Fixing issues is certainly something BHVR should try, a fix usually creates complex knock on effects especially in an asym that they have to worry about but can be overcome, but beyond that, there are far more subjective questions on overall game experience that they have to worry about.

  in Too much rides on the first chase, for both sides. Comment by crogers271 July 8, 2025

• Something should be done to smooth out the state of the game so its not just all instant snowball at the sign of one thing going wrong for one side or the other.

  Okay, but what though?

  The idea that the early game is massively important is pretty well established. I'll even add that lots of it is pretty random, as an example the killer has no idea if the first survivor they take chase with is the survivor with the full chase build or the guy who wants to go for gens.

  Can it be fixed?

  First there's a conceptual problem. Fixes would come off as a catch up mechanic like exists in 2v8 and that already has a mixed reception. It doesn't feel great to have something go well, especially if you feel like you made a great play/series of plays, and the game to give boosts to the other side.

  Okay, let's say we aren't going to worry about that group of players and we'll just focus on the practical problems.

  Slowing down the survivors from getting a great start seemingly isn't too hard on first look. You could just create a condition wherein the survivors do gens at a reduce rate until the first down, but also lower the overall time it takes to complete gens. As just an example, say survivors are slowed down by 25% of the current speed until the first down, but the overall charges needed for a gen go from 90 to 80.

  Something like that would be doable, but it does still lead to a few problems. What happens if the survivors get a pallet/flashlight save, chase is back on, and the gens are now going, compared to the current game, even faster? You could make it hook instead of down, though that potentially makes slugging too strong, especially for killers like Twins. Okay, well you could write a more complex if statement: if no survivor has been hooked and no survivor is currently downed, survivors get a 25% penalty (this then needs a bit more of coding for the worries about No Mither + Plot Twist).

  We then start to get into problems with killers. While giving additional time to set up killers like Trapper would be a good boost, it would be too strong of a boost to killers like Plague and Singularity.

  And I have no idea how you'd handle something like a Tombstone Myers.

  Let's say we figure out a way to correspondingly nerf the killers who would be too strong, let's get onto survivors. Survivors now adopt a code of 'no one drops a pallet on the first chase'. If the second chase is really long instead of the first, its not a huge change. The big issue for survivors is getting a really good chase in before someone is eliminated so they can maximize time getting gens done. That usually is the first chase, because there is no reason for it not to be, but it wouldn't be hard to evade a system by just using windows on the first chase and leaving pallets for later.

  Let's say maybe I'm overthinking this and we just go with something like basekit corrupt. I think you take away an important early game decision making on the survivors for whether they stay where they spawned or spread out, and now its always spread out. Being its always going to happen it becomes something very easy for SWFs to game plan around. And again we still have the issue that basekit slowdown like that would be very lopsided on a killer by killer basis.

  And of all of that is just smoothing out the survivor side for when they get too good of a start. What about when the killer gets too good of a start? I'm not even sure there is a workable path forward. If Billy chainsaws someone on the first down do we just apply a BNP to every gen to keep things balanced? Getting survivors into the old 'one on hook, one in chase, one rescue, one on gens' is basically the goal. It's much harder to come up with a solution here that is balanced without it just being 'bad killer, you did too well to start.'

  You could, potentially, go killer by killer with the nerfs, as an example not allowing Billy to insta down for the first minute of a match or giving some S Tier killers slower charging powers at game start. Except things like this would be massive nerfs that would impact the game radically at different MMR levels. Even then you still have survivors who just lose all the guessing games early and still get off to a bad start.

  Overall: it's an issue with the game, but trying to fix it it creates lots of difficulties. We could get into more radical game overhaul ideas, but that would take us far more into the hypothetical instead of potential.

  in Too much rides on the first chase, for both sides. Comment by crogers271 July 8, 2025

• @Coffee2Go said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958776#Comment_3958776

  The system would see the loop holes certain people do, like when those said players who are in SWF run solo q when their buddies are not online their win ratio will decrease they will most likely run different perk builds that wont stack.

  The system which would see that and counter it but not to punish or make it impossible to play with the build.

  They will still have it easier for them because comms, but it will decrease values according to how they play, their mmr.

  Each for certain person catching the person that boosts red handed before they go back to their win streak because currently the people that do this are imbalancing the stats and give devs false hope and users false hope, the people that boost confuse the current system in place thats all what im saying

  But it sounds like an awful and unfun game design even if it could be pulled off. I looked up your post and I think most people would absolutely hate forced handicapping because of an MMR imbalance.

  The MMR system exists to roughly put players of the same skill level together.

  @Coffee2Go said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958789#Comment_3958789

  Well the steam one was avg like 23k, epic varies too and so does playstation especially during prime times.

  I would like them to have a major update to the MMR system then but again as i said for any mmr system to work you need 500k sorta like r6s, rocket league, league

  Steam is well above 23k. You usually have low 30s in the winter months, high 30s and low 40s in the summer.

  As for saying to work on the numbers of players you need, again, BHVR has said that they are generally fine with how MMR is working and they have the actual data. To use a word like "need" requires a presumption about what outcome you want.

  in Good job on the anti-camp Comment by crogers271 July 7, 2025

• @Coffee2Go said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958774#Comment_3958774

  My entire post which cant be found in feedback section is based off of fixing and reinforcing current MMR system since it cant keep track of such short player numbers, 50k avg or lower is not enough for MMR system to work without flaws, if they make it any tighter it will be worse, if any looser, it will get worse.

  The game requires machine learning system that helps and not punishes, like i will keep saying i dont want to punish SWFs

  Those which run perks that can be doubled in worth when used in comms shall be given a decreased value of worth, only that.

  Same goes for meta killers and their perks.

  AND only if their match history shows they have been winning more and more because of playing in SWFs with those certain perk builds it will either decrease the values of those perks entirely for entire match or just notify to exchange some perks to retain the value, so it will be more like a risk & reward system.

  Either they keep playing their build and system will see if they win or lose and be like alright so they have been losing now i did a good job, or if they keep winning, its not because of those perks.

  My entire post which cant be found in feedback section is based off of fixing and reinforcing current MMR system since it cant keep track of such short player numbers, 50k avg or lower is not enough for MMR system to work without flaws, if they make it any tighter it will be worse, if any looser, it will get worse.

  So 50k you cite is the Steam count, they have a lot more players on console (+ Epic).

  Also, while its been a bit, the devs have said they are happy with how the MMR system works and most matches end up with people who are really close together in MMR (especially during prime hours). They have updates to MMR coming, which I expect will be minor changes, but some people think are going to be major things.

  in Good job on the anti-camp Comment by crogers271 July 7, 2025

• @Coffee2Go said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958753#Comment_3958753

  Thats my point just add a machine learning system that prevents any of that, hacking thing needs to be adressed to, i read a wonderful post about how it should be fixed by a person they seem to know their deal.

  I know my deal with machine learning since i am majoring ML and Neural networking

  But what would a machine learning tool do that they don't have? They want a 60/40 kill rate. They have a 60/40 kill rate. They're literally accomplishing the balance objective they want to achieve.

  Also its no secret that certain builds/addons are much more powerful than others. Its part of the game and always has been. That is something that is in the game intentionally.

  More broadly, BHVR doesn't want a game that is balanced in every trial. You're trying to fix something they don't think is broken (i.e. its not that they don't have the tool you think they need, they just aren't going for what you think they should). The game is filled with massive levels of randomness, guessing games, and things like indoor maps that favor some killers and disadvantage others. The fact that one side might have an advantage is not something they are trying to change (in my opinion they are right on favoring variety over balance, and that it might be inevitable in an asym anyway, though I think they go too far many times).

  @Coffee2Go said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958747#Comment_3958747

  Okay thats all i wanted to hear that you dont like playing like that and think players shouldnt play like that.

  But using addons and inside game designs is totally fine by me unless they stack them based off of their use of comms

  My moral compass tells me to not use comms and rely on that to stack perks no matter the killers

  Okay thats all i wanted to hear that you dont like playing like that and think players shouldnt play like that.

  I said the opposite for the latter part of that.

  I don't play in certain ways because I don't enjoy them. Everyone else is free to play the game in a way they find fun within the strictures of BHVR's rules. I do have opinions on game design changes that I think BHVR could incorporate that would make it an overall more enjoyable game for the majority of players, but I also recognize that such issues are considerably more complicated than they usually appear.

  in Good job on the anti-camp Comment by crogers271 July 7, 2025

• @Coffee2Go said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958739#Comment_3958739

  Actually just wondering now where the persons moral compass sits, and if killers were to toggle external hacking tools for their advantages too ONLY againts SWFs is that also okay

  The killer has no more right to turn on a hacking tool if they somehow knew they were hitting a SWF then a group of soloq players on meme builds would have the right to turn on a hacking tool because they hit a Nurse on a full meta build kill streak.

  in Good job on the anti-camp Comment by crogers271 July 7, 2025

• @Coffee2Go said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958728#Comment_3958728

  What does your moral compass tell you?

  Like this is not a trick question i just want to know the answer to how people think so i dont waste my time in trying to explain what is wrong and what is okay.

  Are you the type of person that tells its users "this is okay" and then go ahead and use it or are you the type of person who will still go with your own moral compass and consider maybe its not okay maybe its wrong.

  Lets take an example of a minecraft server hypixel, they allow certain mods that enter the so called "gray zone" and yes gray zones still exists no matter what.

  Just because company says that its okay does not mean its okay by human logic.

  Their reason and answer might lie in money status and growth.

  Hypixel allows users to run certain mods for their skyblock and prompts like removing keyinputdelay.

  So what about other users that get beaten because of that just because a company allows it does not mean its morally okay.

  Are you the type of person that tells its users "this is okay" and then go ahead and use it or are you the type of person who will still go with your own moral compass and consider maybe its not okay maybe its wrong.

  Lets take an example of a minecraft server hypixel, they allow certain mods that enter the so called "gray zone" and yes gray zones still exists no matter what.

  I have no knowledge of minecraft.

  You're going to need to be a lot more explicit in your moral framework if you want this to be a philosophy discussion.

  The game provides both sides with a difficulty slider if they wish to take it. You can play Nurse, Blight, etc with full meta build, or you can play a lower tier killer and bring no addons. Survivors can enter a map with full stacked commodious toolboxes or medkits in SWF, or they can be paired up by the match maker, bring no items, and run meme builds.

  I personally don't play any of the overpowered builds because I don't find them enjoyable.

  However, I don't believe any other player should or needs to play in the manner I do if they don't enjoy it. They can play the game within the guidelines laid out by BHVR. If they say its not cheating, then its not cheating.

  If you think the game might be better or worse without certain elements they are open to discussion, but that's a much different topic than cheating.

  Just because company says that its okay does not mean its okay by human logic.

  It sounds like you are confusing morality with your own personal preferences for what you want the game to be.

  in Good job on the anti-camp Comment by crogers271 July 7, 2025

• @Coffee2Go said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958705#Comment_3958705

  First of all, it is their job still you are just trying to explain their roles in wider terms, they still get paid to spread information and relay information as they should, they can also not spread it if they choose not to and they can choose to not even respond and be silent about things and yet still get paid by each month lol.

  To get back to you about chat tools, no its not okay and it will never be okay, its unfair external tool that is in the gray zone between considered cheating and being suspicious.

  At this point what is there to stop killers who dont run meta killer to using external cheating tools? Its basically the same then as using chat tools?

  What about survivors that simply dont have any friends and dont want to play in premades just to win, they will also run external cheating tools?

  So again i ask you, do you see any difference between a hacking external tool and a chat tool external method to know location of killer

  No wonder why there are so many hackers in the game, when the game is not even an asymmetrical pvp game.

  To get back to you about chat tools, no its not okay and it will never be okay, its unfair external tool that is in the gray zone between considered cheating and being suspicious.

  There's no grey zone. BHVR has said, repeatedly, that its fine.

  At this point what is there to stop killers who dont run meta killer to using external cheating tools? Its basically the same then as using chat tools?

  The difference is the company that is in charge of saying what is cheating and what is not, says it is okay, and the other is not okay.

  What about survivors that simply dont have any friends and dont want to play in premades just to win, they will also run external cheating tools?

  I've never played in a SWF and primarily play survivor. If the game was literally designed just for me I'd rip SWFs out of the system entirely, but the game isn't designed just for me and BHVR is absolutely fine with friends playing together and using chat tools.

  To a small degree MMR cleans it up, to a larger degree it falls in with all the other sweaty things people can do.

  So again i ask you, do you see any difference between a hacking external tool and a chat tool external method to know location of killer

  And as I've been saying from the beginning, its not a cheating tool because the company says people are absolutely allowed to do it.

  in Good job on the anti-camp Comment by crogers271 July 7, 2025

• @Coffee2Go said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958679#Comment_3958679

  Bold claim? Buddy its their job duty role thats what they get paid to do.

  All they have been doing it saying congrats and mainly respond to most utterly useless discussions on the forums.

  Chat tools are neither okay or fair and killer no matter how sweaty does not have any external factors like them to use for their advantage, even running meta ability killers is not viable, just forces player hands to main those killers because the game is simply not a true asymmetrical genre game.

  If it was it would have methods and ways to nullify chat tools to advantage.

  Bold claim? Buddy its their job duty role thats what they get paid to do.

  Actually they primarily relay information between the community and the design team. None of them are the voice of BHVR.

  They also have quite a number of posts to deal with every day. If all it took was saying 'look at my issue, it's special', everyone would do it and they probably wouldn't have much time for anything else.

  This is a community discussion forum, not a ask the devs anything forum. It's not even a suggestion forum, that though they do have if you wish to offer suggestions.

  Chat tools are neither okay or fair

  BHVR has repeatedly said they are okay.

  The escape rates for SWFs aren't anything astronomical either so their data doesn't indicate the problem people seem to perceive exists.

  in Good job on the anti-camp Comment by crogers271 July 7, 2025

• @Mandy said:

  The anti-face camp is not going to prevent camping, preventing player agency is never the intention with any system - it's giving counterplay to something. You're getting face camped and the bar is going up, you will be able to get off the hook….which if the killer was face-camping previously you couldn't have done without a trade, now you don't need to trade with the survivor on the hook.

  If a killer wants to camp a survivor they can of course do so - we are not removing that, what we're doing is trying to give the survivors tools to counter it - so you can unhook yourself, take chase etc. If the killer is camping, the other survivors should be doing generators, making the killer effectively lose the match.

  So I generally think the AFC feature has been a great improvement, though it could use a few nudges, but looking at your last sentence:

  If the killer is camping, the other survivors should be doing generators, making the killer effectively lose the match.

  1: When did BHVR switch to using win/lose vs kill/escape? It seems to be happening much more frequently and I wonder if it is connected to a change in design/philosophy.

  2: The solution here leads to a very boring game. The survivors do the gens and leave, the hooked survivor just sits there, and the killer is sad no one came for the ambush. It just doesn't seem a good solution to the problem because no one is having fun doing it and this is a video game.

  in Good job on the anti-camp Comment by crogers271 July 7, 2025

• @Coffee2Go said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958612#Comment_3958612

  Mandy you seriously going to allow people treating each other like this? Its better if you explain to them what my idea is about so people stop downvoting and calling me out on something else entierly?

  Whats the point of you not standing by someone to avoid further conflict and arguing on forums.

  Its in your duty to do so, so i ask of you to do something and act.

  2 people so far have decided to terminate their account who have seen my vision and idea in the wider terms, they both had decent stats and played both sides.

  @Coffee2Go said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958612#Comment_3958612

  What will be done for the survivors in a full pre-made team purposly using this re-work in their advantage to gen rush?

  Since people in a squad will have real time comms such as texting, voice chat.

  Killer cant counter play that even if they try only meta ability ones can which makes the game fully one sided choice.

  Do enlighten me what do you guys in the team have planned for people who are using that for their advantage? Would prefer if my questions are not ignored since all the devs seem to be the same and dont really give an answer to what can be done to make SWFs become equal footing to casual players randoms?

  Already caught one person on forum stating their games are unbearable with randoms which apperently means that they refuse to play the game because they simply cant properly play the game unless they use texting or vc for their advantage.

  No perk in game can counter real time comms between swfs.

  Its in your duty to do so, so i ask of you to do something and act.

  Well, that's a bold claim.

  Do enlighten me what do you guys in the team have planned for people who are using that for their advantage? Would prefer if my questions are not ignored since all the devs seem to be the same and dont really give an answer to what can be done to make SWFs become equal footing to casual players randoms?

  BHVR has been pretty clear over the years that people using chat tools are absolutely okay. The game has options of sweatiness on both sides.

  Already caught one person on forum stating their games are unbearable with randoms which apperently means that they refuse to play the game because they simply cant properly play the game unless they use texting or vc for their advantage.

  SWFs aren't a new thing, neither are players quitting the game.

  in Good job on the anti-camp Comment by crogers271 July 7, 2025

• @ChuckingWong said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958419#Comment_3958419

  I wouldnt say disgusting, but more like, misleading.
  
  Not establishing that little disclaimer or fact before they post something like that is a bit disingenuous of them.
  
  I think though with how MMR doesnt work sometimes that it ultimately doesnt matter with how many matches they play. They will play against the same people that everyone else plays against.

  I watched it live this year so I can't say for certain what they put in the Youtube videos, but I think they are pretty clear about what happens. This year they offered to send the killers they faced in the early matches gift cards (or do a donation) because of how lopsided it is.

  They will play against the same people that everyone else plays against.

  I was watching Otz do the Assimilation challenge (not sure if he ever did it as a Youtube video). There might have been around 50 survivors games in that, but I recall he hit the same Artist two or three times. Apparently it was an Artist who is known because they always play Artist using only a single perk (Spies from the Shadows I believe)

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 July 7, 2025

• @IamtheMilkman said:

  People who complain about tunneling obviously don’t play killer at high mmr and it definitely shows. Especially when survivors have a plethora of perks that help prevent it. Like decisive strike, dead hard, off the record, even base kit borrowed time. Killers should be allowed to go after the weakest link in order to win.

  Ntm I’m so tired of hearing “you’re not supposed to win every match.” That’s the biggest load of crap I ever heard. Im gonna do everything in my power to win each and every game. Even if I have to slug, tunnel, or even proxy camp to get a survivor to the 2nd hook stage. I’ll do it for the win.

  No one should have to follow a fictional rule book.

  Ntm I’m so tired of hearing “you’re not supposed to win every match.” That’s the biggest load of crap I ever heard. Im gonna do everything in my power to win each and every game. 

  You have the right to try to win every match, as do your opponents.

  You don't have the right to expect you will win every match, and neither do your opponents.

  in I have the right to win Comment by crogers271 July 7, 2025

• @Pulsar said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958405#Comment_3958405

  Can't recall ever speaking to you before, perhaps you've mistaken me for someone else?

  "You always have an answer for everything"

  Maybe he does know you because that sounds like one of the nicest compliments I've ever heard.

  in It's funny how High MMR and 4 Stack SWF are a very small percentage of Players. Comment by crogers271 July 7, 2025

• @Abbzy said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958006#Comment_3958006

  Good survivors have no problem to get at least two people out against legion and that is minimum good survivors can beat legion with ez, legion can only get fast injures and some info while in power but thats all after that he is m1 killer with nothing to offer in antiloop, mobility. If it werent on haddonfield or simular weak map for survivors then they didnt give their best. If you watched otz survivor chalange with hens and another good survivor players when they have to get rank one snd each survivor that died coudnt be used every time they saw legion it was almost free escape ( if I remeber corretly thry have like one/two perks each and only thing that helped them was swf team work), legion is joke for every competent team.

  Invictus was on a 202 game winning streak. One of the best survivor teams in the world. The post is a good example of having a conclusion and working backwards from it.

  Where there things Invictus could have done differently? Absolutely, but the killer makes quite a few mistakes as well (and also doesn't have an overpowered build on). It was not like they lost because of one single error or the killer playing an absolutely perfect game, they lost because they got outplayed even though it was a Legion spreading pressure, the type of thing people insist is impossible to win with.

  If you watched otz survivor chalange with hens and another good survivor players when they have to get rank one snd each survivor that died coudnt be used every time they saw legion it was almost free escape ( if I remeber corretly thry have like one/two perks each and only thing that helped them was swf team work)

  The Hardcore Survivor challenge, done with Otz, Hens, Ayrun, and JRM, is not a great comparison because they start fresh accounts, meaning they are at new player MMR. They also can use any number of perks they want, but being they are on new accounts they have to unlock them and they can't use a perk after a survivor has died and they aren't allowed to stack bloodpoints to spend on other survivors (and the challenge went poorly for them this year).

  Edit: Now that I think of it they do have perk restrictions early in the challenge, but they aren't really relevant and have little impact compared to the starting characters fresh with no BP.

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 July 6, 2025

• @jokere98 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3958040#Comment_3958040

  thanks. To be fair - there were a bunch of camping

  What are we considering a bunch of camping (or as this thread has talked about at length, what's your definition)?

  It's not the first two hooks for certain.

  The 3rd person hooked is on death hook, but he still chases and picks up a survivor behind shack. He only comes back to that hook when the survivor is basically about to die (and being that hook is in the middle of the map we have no idea if he's just traversing across).

  The 5th unhook he is in the general area because he's staying to the top of the map, but he doesn't even come back to the unhook when it happens.

  The 6th hook he's in the area, but so are all of the survivors, though this would be the clearest call for some type of camping.

  7th hook they pull pretty quickly and he comes for the unhooker, ignoring the person who was unhooked.

  8th hook he goes to pop, they pull, his only real direction back is towards the hook and he goes for the healthy survivor instead of the unhooked.

  He's defending the top side certainly, though there's never much of an opportunity to leave it, but he keeps getting in and taking chases up there. He actively ignores the survivor who gets unhooked on multiple occasions.

  When I think camping I think a killer standing just outside the AFC range, not taking chases, or at minimum proxy camping an area around the hook and dropping chase if he gets too far and/or the unhook occurs. The Legion is chasing basically whoever he finds and being active in half of the map, and we don't know if he would have gone into the dungeon in the latter portions of the game because the survivors never try to draw him there (such as, by example, trying to reset below).

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 July 6, 2025

• @Firellius said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957946#Comment_3957946

  That clearly means that team Invictus was not competent, since competent survivors are unbeatable.

  It's funny because I was thinking about that while watching the match. From the killer's perspective, if you didn't recognize the names, how would you be able to tell this team was any different than any other group of survivors?

  @jokere98 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957946#Comment_3957946

  source please?

  Link here: should go to the match we're talking about

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 July 6, 2025

• @Klomlong1 said:

  Slugging:

  Slugging is boring to go against as survivor however there are two types of slugging which are aggressive slugging and subtle slugging. Aggressive slugging is when the killer goes out their way and slugging all match whereas subtle slugging is when the killer slugs when they have to e.g during endgame. The problem here is aggressive slugging which is what needs solving. To solve this, unbreakable should be basekit when three survivors are slugged at the same time. This would allow the survivors being slugged to pick themselves up and eliminate aggressive slugging for the most part. If there are two survivors left and a survivor is downed, the downed survivor can pick themselves up. This would also solve the issue of "slugging for the win" where the killer would slug one person on the floor until the other survivor has been found.

  Tunneling:

  Tunneling in general is healthy to have in the game personally whilst it can help to put pressure on the survivors however the main problem with Tunneling is when it is done early on in the match (which is aggressively done by the stronger tier killers). A solution to this is that for the first 210 seconds of the trail starting, any survivor that has been unhooked during the time frame will revieve basekit DS and the haste/endurance they recieve is increased to 15 seconds. This would allow the targeted survivor early on in the match to have a fighting chance if they're being tunneled whilst also making more distance against the killer.

  Camping:

  Camping for the most part has been solved with the introduction of the anti camp feature however a small addition can be added to this. Making kindred basekit would allow the survivors to know if it is safe to try and unhook the survivor or if they should stay away and let the anti camp mechanic activate so the survivor can 4% of the hook with the feature. Furthermore, a progress bar beside the survivor name showing how much progress is in the anti camp bar would also allow survivors to have a better understanding if they should go to the unhook or not, being a very useful feature in solo Q. This system would deactivate at endgame.

  Good changes to survivor but what about killer players?:

  Obviously, with these changes, killer players will struggle and with the gen speeds currently, killers will struggle massively to compete so here are some changes that should be made. First of all, make corrupt basekit. This would help killers in the early game massively to set up (such as trapper with traps) and would convince players to play normally rather than using tactics such as tunneling early on. Secondly, for each unique survivor hooked (survivors first hook state), increase killers kicking and vaulting speeds by 3%. This would incentives killers to hook each survivor once rather than target a survivor from the get go. Lastly, make pop basekit but get 10% rather than 20% and make this a fixed progress rather than concurrent progress. Pop perk would be nerfed to 10% in compensation. This would allow killers to be rewarded more when hooking a survivor whilst also being able to comeback gen speeds without relying on other tactics.

  They could also make blood gens basekit when there is one gen left to be completed and to compensate no gen perks can work on the blood gens however that would probally be controversial.

  In conclusion, I do believe these changes would be healthy for the game. Obviously some tweaks would probally need to be made and killers, etc will need buffing/nerving but overall I do believe that if the anti camp, anti slug and anti tunnel changes are these then the game would be in a more healthier state and would make balance alot easier if the killers can also get compensation.

  To solve this, unbreakable should be basekit when three survivors are slugged at the same time.

  Basekit unbreakable is not really a workable solution. Slugging in and of itself is no more boring than getting hooked, its the amount of time a player can be out of play that is the primary issue. It was a far bigger issue before the changes to knock out.

  I think slightly faster crawling speed and/or still being able to heal a little while crawling would be enough. Or even something like all survivors being able to 99 their slug heals. There's an outside chance that I think BHVR might make slugs heal more quickly the more frequently they have been slugged.

  If there are two survivors left and a survivor is downed, the downed survivor can pick themselves up. This would also solve the issue of "slugging for the win" where the killer would slug one person on the floor until the other survivor has been found.

  If there are two survivors left and anything more than a single gen to go, the killer can just keep slugging. Getting back up isn't going to fix that. Expanding the abandon option to allow the slugged survivor in this scenario to leave and then the killer/remaining survivor can decide on whether they want to play the hiding game or not.

  A solution to this is that for the first 210 seconds of the trail starting, any survivor that has been unhooked during the time frame will revieve basekit DS and the haste/endurance they recieve is increased to 15 seconds. 

  The problem with DS is that for new players hitting the skill check is still an issue. But the broad idea of their being additional protections for survivors hooked within the early portion of the match I think is the right direction.

  Making kindred basekit would allow the survivors to know if it is safe to try and unhook the survivor or if they should stay away and let the anti camp mechanic activate so the survivor can 4% of the hook with the feature. Furthermore, a progress bar beside the survivor name showing how much progress is in the anti camp bar would also allow survivors to have a better understanding if they should go to the unhook or not, being a very useful feature in solo Q.

  Basekit Kindred would be way too much. The AFC meter should progress slightly faster than it does now. Survivors don't need a bar that they can follow, but getting an indication if the AFC meter hits the halfway mark would be a good idea.

  would convince players to play normally rather than using tactics such as tunneling early on.

  We've been down this road before. Killers are going to try and win. They should try and win. Trying to encourage people to play in certain ways because 'X is no longer necessary' is a really bad approach.

  make corrupt basekit.

  We just got survivors spawning closer together which I think we give that more time before we just start blocking gens off the start. Having corrupt every game takes out some of the key early game decision making.

  Secondly, for each unique survivor hooked (survivors first hook state), increase killers kicking and vaulting speeds by 3%.

  I think your survivor suggestions went too far, and I think basekit Pop and Corrupt would be too much, but giving the killer an increased bonus for unique hooks would be fine. The problem is that whatever you increase (kicking, vaulting, etc) is now pushing killers to play around those strategies which I think creates more problems than people anticipate.

  in What the slugging, camping and tunneling changes should consist of when they release this year. Comment by crogers271 July 6, 2025

• @Rulebreaker said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957827#Comment_3957827

  You realize we immediately come into the problem of "what defines light tunneling" since you refused to state anything, but starting from the top.
  

  actually hard to do if you're playing a killer who needs to do it

  if you are playing a killer b tier and below there is a high chance you will need to employ some light tunneling at least to win against a team who is even decently efficient and decent in chase

  Yes its hard, but not a single killer absolutely, 100%, needs to do it to win assuming everyones on an equal skill level. Hard doesn't mean necessary.

  So whats "light tunneling"? Do we get to define it? (Yes we're still not over you not providing definitions to put it lightly)

  like if I'm playing a mouse 1 killer I literally do not have the chase capacity to go and play nice because that relies on downing people quickly;

  All killers have powers they use to hunt down survivors. Trapper sets his traps so he can cut down chase time, Ghostface stealthfully ambushes survivors and can mark for instant downs, Pig has both stealth and one of the best stalls after a down. Not everyone focuses on running face first into the survivors screaming "WAAAAAAAAGH", some require a different approach.

  so whenever someone says that killers shouldn't complain about tunneling being nerfed and should instead learn to play "normal" the only thing I can wonder is how exactly they want us to play.

  Can only speak for the 3 of us but it kinda boils to "dont be a ****". It ain't that complex, its pretty close to basic empathy even. If as survivor I get unhooked and run into the killer on accident, fair game as its my fault. If as survivor im hooked and the killer stops chasing that injured survivor that was across the map to come try for me (ironically its usually those "s-tiers" you bring up, aka the ones whom you claim "they do not need to tunnel and camp" yet inexplicably do), im going to sigh a "really?" to the screen as im chased practically immediately. Bonus points if at 4+ gens when the killer is running 3-4 slowdowns.

  do you want us to go to one survivor, another survivor, another survivor, another survivor, and repeat the cycle? do you seriously expect people to be able to do that against any team with an IQ of 20 while playing ghostface or dredge?

  See, whom here said THAT one? Know the Rulebreakers didn't~ You should have defined what you mean by tunneling as THAT sounds more like hook carousel and not tunneling to us.
  As an aside, im pretty sure an survivor with an IQ of 20 would be dying repeatedly since the normal range is around 80-110. So in that particular case, yes mr. bond we expect them to kill.

  Not everyone focuses on running face first into the survivors screaming "WAAAAAAAAGH", some require a different approach.

  I did not expect a Warhammer reference in my DbD forum today and it is much appreciated.

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 July 6, 2025

• @StalkingYou said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957163#Comment_3957163

  >In DbD some killers act like survivors want to penalize anything but 12 hooking, even when they are being told that isn't true.
  
  wow yea im totally going to believe that because the survivors are TELLING me it isn't true. yeah im 100% going to just believe what they say when every single way to play other than bending over backwards and trying to keep as many people alive for as long as possible before actually killing them has been nerfed. camping and tunneling has been nerfed to hell and you cannot deny that. now its time for slugging. maybe if they actually implemented drastic measures to allow the "nice playstyle" to actually be effective, this would not be a problem. but people would rather gaslight the ever loving ######### out of anyone who says this by saying that bending over backwards for the survivors is actually a GOOD strategy, ur just not skilled enough. reeks of the aura of people who go "just pressure generators"

  wow yea im totally going to believe that because the survivors are TELLING me it isn't true

  If you already know what other people actually mean despite what they are saying, I'm not sure what you are hoping to accomplish on a discussion forum.

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 July 5, 2025

• @TimberGoingDown said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3957059#Comment_3957059

  Soooo… tunneling is a meaningless word that can mean whatever the survivor in question wants it to mean.

  No. It's also not unique to survivors, its an issue that effects both sides and, more broadly, games in general. In DbD some killers act like survivors want to penalize anything but 12 hooking, even when they are being told that isn't true.

  A comparison to this that a lot of early multiplayer FPS games had to go through was 'spawn camping' (I suspect some version of this complaint still exists). Just for clarity, this would be in a game with respawns after death where an enemy player/team would kill people as they spawned in without a chance to defend themselves. It was generally seen as 'unfun' and 'simplistic' as the one side had no chance and little skill was being exhibited, while others worried that nerfing/eliminating spawn camping would limit 'strategic opportunities' (pretty much like the tunneling discussions).

  Now even though we have a general definition, people still frequently meant different things. Did it only count if you killed the person as they spawned in? What about the door to the spawn area? Or the hallway outside? At what point was it no longer spawn camping, but just regular gameplay?

  There's no official source where we can look up terms like tunneling or spawn camping to draw the line. That's why people need to be specific about what they mean when discussing game changes. Which isn't really that hard and the majority of threads on things like tunneling over the past few years are people talking past each other because they mean different things.

  
  I have no knowledge of what BHVR will do, but I highly doubt by anti-tunnel they mean 12 hooking and we're much more likely looking at either more basekit protections off the hook or something that makes it more difficult for the killer to eliminate a survivor on three straight hooks, or some benefit to the survivors if the killer does so (I doubt the last one though it gets suggested a lot).

  Maybe they'll do something more extreme than that. Sometimes they make decisions that I think are really bad, but given how they've operated in the past, I find the idea that its going to be a radical overhaul incredibly unlikely.

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 July 4, 2025

• @TimberGoingDown said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3956960#Comment_3956960

  "a version" of tunneling?

  It gets used in lots of different ways

  Anything but 12 hooking is tunneling

  Going after the survivor right off the hook

  Going after the survivor right off the hook, unless that survivor body blocks

  Hyper focusing on the first survivor found until they are 3 hooked and eliminated, ignoring all others

  Trying to find the weakest survivor and then focusing on them until they are eliminated

  It even gets used for targeting players for specific reasons - anything from a player who was a really good looper and now the killer wants to eliminate them more than win the game, to targeting specific characters and/or charms due to personal dislike.

  All of them focus around the general idea of the killer targeting a specific survivor, though how extreme the standard is, and whether there are any other circumstances that might change it, are also important to consider when discussing such a broad topic.

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 July 4, 2025

• @StalkingYou said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955688#Comment_3955688

  I'm not going to answer silly questions if you refuse to even talk about my point that the way you want killers to play is objectively not a good strategy and that you essentially want killers to handicap themselves.
  
  But they're adding basekit unbreakable, so I guess there's no point in continuing this loop. It is clear that you, numerous other players, and BHVR themselves only want killers to play super nice wholesome boop pig chungus 12 hook and every other strategy should be nerfed. So that is what you are going to get.

  Not sure what happened to the version @Rulebreaker originally quoted, but I'll respond to this one.

  I'm not going to answer silly questions if you refuse to even talk about my point 

  I have already, you can see it up above in the post where I respond to your card game comparison.

  you want killers to play is objectively not a good strategy and that you essentially want killers to handicap themselves.

  Because that's not true.

  You can play the game however you like. This thread has been going on for awhile, but I don't think anyone has been arguing for a "rulebook". People have been arguing about BHVR nerfing an overpowered strategy. You're arguing against a strawman.

  Game elements get nerfed and buffed on both sides all the time. That's all anyone is talking about.

  But they're adding basekit unbreakable, so I guess there's no point in continuing this loop.

  Highly unlikely we're going to get basekit unbreakable. They tried that and it didn't work. It's possible that we'll get some form of unbreakable for extreme situations, but I think even that is unlikely. But I'll wait to see the specifics of whatever they roll out for their changes before I start doom posting about it.

  12 hook and every other strategy should be nerfed. So that is what you are going to get.

  So this is why I ask you to define things. If you think by tunneling survivors are saying killers need to 12 hook, that would indeed be absurd. 12 hooking is very different from targeting the first survivor found until they are dead on 3 hooks, its even different than the definition @Rulebreaker put up.

  DbD is an elimination game. In my opinion it should remain an elimination game, but targeting a single survivor, trying to tunnel them out as fast as possible, ignoring all other survivors, leads to a bad game. It isn't very engaging, the strategy is extremely simple for the reward it can give, and it means the game is overwhelmingly decided based on the perk loadouts that the survivors bring.

  The game has had many problems. Infinites, 3 genning, facecamping, hatch mechanic, insta gen completing BMPs, exhaustion that recovered while running, etc. BHVR has, as they should, tried to fix these. Tunneling is, as it should be, one of their things on the list. Whether the change they make or not will help we won't know until we see what they go with.

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 July 4, 2025

• @UndeddJester said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955834#Comment_3955834

  I generally prefer BK over We'll Make It, but, when I run We'll Make It, I feel so much more comfortable getting that heal in right away.

  Is a fair point, though just to clarify, it's only 2.667s seconds not 4s, which translates to difference of ~12.25m of killer distance in the trial.

  I accept the point that even with that number, it can of course make the difference of getting a heal off before the tunnel, but a killer really trying to tunnel will often interrupt before We'll Make It can finish as well... so I don't particularly see the additional value that comes from We'll Make It vs. Botany.

  Especially when in SoloQ you have this constant problem of teammates being too keen to unhook, so if you have good unhook discipline, you often don't even get to trigger We'll Make It anyway, whereas Botany is always up no matter what happens.

  And in regards to Botany having the same strength as before, please refer to my post above this one.

  Is a fair point, though just to clarify, it's only 2.667s seconds not 4s, which translates to difference of ~12.25m of killer distance in the trial.

  This is my bad, for some reason I was thinking the numbers for running both as the comparison (~4.3 seconds adding We'll Make It on top of Botany, but we're discussing 1 vs the other).

  @UndeddJester said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955701#Comment_3955701

  This is fair enough, and yes Botany did always have this strength before, however, my point has always been that the -20% medkit efficiency gave the perk a tangible downside.

  That downside gave scenarios where Botany wasn't a preferable perk. Those scenarios didn't come up too often, Botany was a very consistent and strong perk, but they DID exist. The most prominent one being, if I'm injured at end game, need to heal solo and running Botany, I can't search chests for a medkit. That's a pretty niche weakness, but it's a real scenario that does come up every now and again.

  I'm an off meta player, I like theory crafting and trying to create builds with a particular idea in mind, looking for combinations of perks that work well, that others may overlook... it's probably my favourite part of the game... and in all theory crafting, Botany is a strong choice every time, however this weakness above is also a factor to consider each time, and is a weakness that meant I might choose something like the less consistent perks like Desperate Measures, We'll Make It or Do No Harm in its place... and by doing so, using these perks inspires me to perhaps consider other alternatives that might uniquely synergise better with them.

  Now whenever I'm creating builds, if I'm thinking of a healing speed perk for a build, Botany is the best choice every time because I can always ensure I have it for any scenario, including healing myself. It's why I hate the change so much, because whenever I'm theory crafting a healing build, the answer is always Botany... and that is so boring to me.

  Those scenarios didn't come up too often, Botany was a very consistent and strong perk, but they DID exist.

  I think this kind of gets to @jesterkind 's point - it isn't a big deal. Botany was a very good perk, now its a slightly stronger very good perk.

  @UndeddJester said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955516#Comment_3955516

  Yeah I understand your point, but I just can't resolve that the extra speed argument on any perk is always moot point, because the difference is only 2.667s additional over BK, compared to the 5.333s value that BK already gives... and BK works in every scenario.

  So then you have to go to secondary effects... and every effect falls short compared to the fact that BK also saves a whopping 8 seconds on medkit self healing, and frees up a whole extra players hands for the 16s duration... thats 16s of value from a medkit+ BK. This effect is good enough to be a perk on its own, and yet BK gives a significant portion of other perks value with no set-up, cooldowns of conditions whatsoever. Remember no self healing exists for all these other perks... so I'm just gonna say NoSH as a reminder.

  We'll Make It is the big loser, cause it only grants an additional ⅓ of the value of BK, despite being conditional and having a time limit. Totally shut down by slugging or SoloQ hooking too fast... and NoSH.

  We're Gonna Live Forever is a contender, because the endurance effect is a valuable effect that Botany cannot compete with... but is reliant on the killer to slug for value, whereas Botany's value is almost always gonna be there getting value no matter what strategy the killer employs short of tunneling the BK player (and even the a syringe can do huge work).NoSH.

  Circle of Healing is far to restrictive, take 14s to set up, however much time to run to the boon, then again, only saving 2.667s over BK and can be snuffed. Totally pointless to run this perk, especially since COH is a NoSH perk.

  Do No Harm is no value on no hook stage, equal value on first hook stage, and again only the same 2.667s value on the second hook stage. The net overall healing time over the game is still longer than Botany in practically all scenarios.... and once again, NoSH.

  Desperate Measures, requires multiple injures teammates 3/4 of them to see the same value. Unhook speed is nice but really other than making a trade easier when injured, it's just not got an effect that rivals the consistency of Botany. Though this one does have self healing though; DoSH.

  Empathic Connection has a decent percentage of the value of Botany at 11.85s compared to BKs 10.667s, and is similarly unconditional. The aura effect is actually decent here to create and good value trade off... though NoSH strike again. The self heal speed is a major head and shoulders value advantage.

  This is why I can't take the argument that other perks have their own value particularly seriously... the value of Botany is so consistent and universally applicable, that the value of it trumps everything.

  I know I'm bouncing back a bit here but I noticed you didn't mention the game's best healing perk Autodidact.

  😂

  (in all seriousness when I've gotten autodidact in chaos shuffle I've found getting it fully charged can be game changing, but it is so incredibly luck dependent).

  I kind of want to defend CoH, but all my memories of it being effective are from different metas. When slugging and 3 genning where stronger I found a CoH/Exponential a useful build, but not as much anymore. I guess it does provide the benefit of that the rest of the survivors can focus on non-healing perks if they're coordinating in the lobby, but even then it's really map dependent on its strength.

  in The Botany Knowledge Buff Really Isn't A Big Deal (Bear With Me) Comment by crogers271 July 2, 2025

• @killer998 said:

  pretty much as the question says. Why are so many people stressed or “nervous” or even “scared” of playing killer?
  
  I've been playing dbd a lot lately. I’ve returned after a year and I’ve been having a blast with all the new killers since Vecna, particularly Kaneki and Springtrap.
  

  Likewise been having a good time playing Survivor with the new perks and cosmetics like Geralt etc with friends.

  one thing I’ve noticed though, with my friend group and people I’ve talked to on DBD, or watching people play killer on YouTube, twitch etc and talking to people through the chats etc or seeing conversations, a lot of people don’t want to play killer.
  

  I used to be an almost killer main before the hiatus and I think I had really high mmr at the time since my god the games were sweaty. I actually don’t know if MMR decays because even though it’s been a year, and my rust has been RUSTING, I’m getting really sweaty games that feel like games before I left.
  

  Now that has been stressful I’m not going to lie. Trying to get back to where i used to be, especially playing so many new killers with new perks etc has been a total trial by fire with the games I’ve been getting.
  

  I’ve been asking my friends to play killer and they’re so QUICK to say things like “absolutely not”. That from seeing my games as killer which yeah, as I’ve said they haven’t been pretty sometimes that playing killer freaks them out.
  

  They enjoy watching killer play, like me in the discord while they’re eating etc but playing killer is a big no no. That’s a viewpoint I’ve been seeing from a lot of people.
  
  killer can be really fun! Honestly it’s more fun than survivor I think since every character is different etc. Not that I don’t love playing survivor as well, especially lately I’ve found a real balance of playtime.
  
  I feel like a lot of people just have this fear of playing killer and I find it very interesting hearing why they feel that way.

  I feel like a lot of people just have this fear of playing killer and I find it very interesting hearing why they feel that way.

  This is one of my favorite topics and it comes up every month or two.

  It boils down to: people are different.

  Personally, I've never found Killer very fulfilling (win or lose). That's very different from being stressed in the role as I've never thought the things you have to manage in the game are that difficult or anywhere on the level of having to guess at what the other survivors are doing.

  in Why do so many people find killer so stressful to play? Comment by crogers271 July 2, 2025

• @Rapid99 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955492#Comment_3955492

  A free 50% healing increase with zero requirements / specific attachments necessary, is a bit more than just "okay".

  The requirement is the perk slot. Survivors get four perks and that is their primary source of strength and customization. Most perks either provide a moderate, constant buff (botany) or a significant, but conditional based buff (we'll make it). Some perks are situational and require certain circumstances to get value but its an extreme amount of value (unbreakable).

  Botany is a solid, general perk, but if you're getting tunneled, or you're against a plague or instadown killer, its not very valuable. But if you bring heal perks and hit a killer spreading pressure, you'll have an advantage, sure, but that's broadly true for how everything works in the game.

  @jesterkind said:

  Seriously, hear me out.

  I see this buff talked about in passing a lot since it happened, usually in the context of talking about how healing is busted right now or some such. Now, trust me, I get it- I was also nervous about them buffing Botany and even had misgivings about this specific buff when it was announced, so I get how you'd come to this conclusion. However, I do truly think the buff kinda didn't change much at all.

  A big chunk of the reason why is that the penalty they removed… kinda didn't matter already. It was already trivially easy to overcome for a single heal - just bring one charge addon - and not all that difficult to get two heals out of either by bringing a syringe.

  So, with that in mind, what new options are actually available/improved noticeably because of the penalty not existing? To my eyes, there's three, and none are all that frightening. Those are:

  • Survivors with Botany can now use medkits they find in chests. This is… something, but they still have the time investment of the chest itself, so not a particularly huge bonus.
  • Getting two heals via charge addons and the healing action is doable without Streetwise now. This is, again, something, but the healing action is practically just weaker than the syringe— the only benefit I can see is that the syringe eats your medkit, but that's pretty minor with how accessible medkits are.
  • Altruistic healing builds are now better with Botany and a medkit. This is arguably the biggest boost the perk got, but nobody actually does this and it wouldn't be too problematic if they did.

  There's really nothing else that Botany is capable of doing now that it couldn't completely do before the buff, that I can see. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think this buff actually mattered overall.

  If you're noticing super fast heals now and they definitely weren't happening before Botany got buffed, it's still not Botany doing it, in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, Botany's top tier, but it was top tier before this buff too.

  I think this is all accurate. Medkit + addons + syringe + botany was and is still extremely strong and the change to botany knowledge really didn't impact much except make other medkit options more viable though still not as strong.

  A big chunk of the reason why is that the penalty they removed… kinda didn't matter already. It was already trivially easy to overcome for a single heal - just bring one charge addon - and not all that difficult to get two heals out of either by bringing a syringe.

  I think this is broadly the reason they removed it. It didn't do much, but it required explaining the math to new players (and added unnecessary coding as well).

  @UndeddJester said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3955516#Comment_3955516

  Yeah I understand your point, but I just can't resolve that the extra speed argument on any perk is always moot point, because the difference is only 2.667s additional over BK, compared to the 5.333s value that BK already gives... and BK works in every scenario.

  So then you have to go to secondary effects... and every effect falls short compared to the fact that BK also saves a whopping 8 seconds on medkit self healing, and frees up a whole extra players hands for the 16s duration... thats 16s of value from a medkit+ BK. This effect is good enough to be a perk on its own, and yet BK gives a significant portion of other perks value with no set-up, cooldowns of conditions whatsoever. Remember no self healing exists for all these other perks... so I'm just gonna say NoSH as a reminder.

  We'll Make It is the big loser, cause it only grants an additional ⅓ of the value of BK, despite being conditional and having a time limit. Totally shut down by slugging or SoloQ hooking too fast... and NoSH.

  We're Gonna Live Forever is a contender, because the endurance effect is a valuable effect that Botany cannot compete with... but is reliant on the killer to slug for value, whereas Botany's value is almost always gonna be there getting value no matter what strategy the killer employs short of tunneling the BK player (and even the a syringe can do huge work).NoSH.

  Circle of Healing is far to restrictive, take 14s to set up, however much time to run to the boon, then again, only saving 2.667s over BK and can be snuffed. Totally pointless to run this perk, especially since COH is a NoSH perk.

  Do No Harm is no value on no hook stage, equal value on first hook stage, and again only the same 2.667s value on the second hook stage. The net overall healing time over the game is still longer than Botany in practically all scenarios.... and once again, NoSH.

  Desperate Measures, requires multiple injures teammates 3/4 of them to see the same value. Unhook speed is nice but really other than making a trade easier when injured, it's just not got an effect that rivals the consistency of Botany. Though this one does have self healing though; DoSH.

  Empathic Connection has a decent percentage of the value of Botany at 11.85s compared to BKs 10.667s, and is similarly unconditional. The aura effect is actually decent here to create and good value trade off... though NoSH strike again. The self heal speed is a major head and shoulders value advantage.

  This is why I can't take the argument that other perks have their own value particularly seriously... the value of Botany is so consistent and universally applicable, that the value of it trumps everything.

  We'll Make It is the big loser, cause it only grants an additional ⅓ of the value of BK, despite being conditional and having a time limit.

  I generally prefer BK over We'll Make It, but, when I run We'll Make It, I feel so much more comfortable getting that heal in right away. If there is a potential that the killer can return to the hook, those 4 seconds can make a massive difference.

  in The Botany Knowledge Buff Really Isn't A Big Deal (Bear With Me) Comment by crogers271 July 2, 2025

• @StalkingYou said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951250#Comment_3951250

  Anything but talk about how you want killers to spread hooks and keep the game a 4v1 as long as possible to please the survivors
  
  FFS, can we stop beating around the bush and pretending like this is a viable strategy to beat teams that are good in chase and crank gens? We should not be writing paragraphs here, I'm assuming we all play the game and have watched known streamers such as Otz be forced to tunnel or camp at least once to win a game.
  
  You want killer to spread hooks and play "normal". That strategy does not work against good teams while playing 90% of killers. You want only strategy that gives the killer leverage against those teams to be nerfed. There is your problem. No need for mental mindgames where Firellius asks me questions like "should the best player in the world win every game" or suggest that skill alone can get you out of any situation in this game. You and Firellius just over-complicate this each time because it's very hard to dispute simple logic without adding unnecessary fluff to make yourself sound right.
  

  We should not be writing paragraphs here

  Discussions and game design are complex issues that require time, but I'll do my best to keep it brief.

  FFS, can we stop beating around the bush and pretending like this is a viable strategy to beat teams that are good in chase and crank gens

  I'm assuming we all play the game and have watched known streamers such as Otz be forced to tunnel or camp at least once to win a game.

  1: How do you define 'viable'? As I and others have mentioned in prior threads, tunneling is really strong, that doesn't mean other strategies aren't viable.

  2: Going all the way back to the origin of the thread, you aren't meant to win every game. Even someone like Otz isn't meant to win every game. I watch Otz, Hens, Scott, Spookyloopz and they win the vast majority of their killer games sometimes with extreme restrictions and challenges in place.

  You want killer to spread hooks and play "normal".

  You and Firellius just over-complicate this each time because it's very hard to dispute simple logic without adding unnecessary fluff to make yourself sound right.

  You seem to have great insight into not just the game but the thought processes of random people on the internet.

  I'm not over complicating. I'm asking basic questions. What is tunneling? What is viable? What win percentage do you think the killer should have? How to determine what a good team is or not based off the data in a single pub match?

  The thing about 'simple logic' is that it prevents people from questioning their idea or preconceived notions by even addressing basic challenges.

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 July 1, 2025

• @PigWithTvs said:

  you know i been playing this game since ghost face release and i always wondered why survivors are always like, don't tunnel, don't camp, don't slug

  and my question is why….?

  why shouldn't i do those things, you as a survivor do everything in your power to win, so why shouldn't i be able to do the same?

  and don't go with the, oh its low skill or something like or the "rulebook" i want an actual answer that makes just a tiny bit of sense lol, because i feel like this is a question that nobody really has an answer to

  If killers actually tunneled as much as they could, the level of nerfs BHVR would drop on them would be massive.

  Play however you want. I don't tunnel because it makes the game incredibly boring. I hate getting a survivor out early and then just playing clean up for the next ten minutes.

  It also shoots you up the MMR, though given how loose MMR can be many don't care. But it does mean you'll eventually hit teams prepared to deal with tunneling, and if that's what you're used to relying on you'll suffer a pretty severe loss. Killers who get 'stuck' in high MMR really don't seem to enjoy the experience.

  you as a survivor do everything in your power to win, so why shouldn't i be able to do the same?

  Not even close. The vast majority of survivors are not 4 person SWFs, so that's already weaker than they could be. But I rarely as killer or soloq survivor see 4 stacked items in a lobby which is what it would be if the survivors where doing everything their power to win.

  in Why shouldn't i tunnel? Comment by crogers271 July 1, 2025

• @xGodSendDeath said:

  Would absolutely love to hear how you're supposed to deal with this when they're healing in 3 seconds and absolutely slamming gens. You can't split pressure because they just heal in 4 seconds flat non-stop. Someone tell me a strategy that isn't proxy camp the hook/hard tunnel so they can't heal in 2 seconds or a suggestion that isn't Just Play Blight.

  Healing speeds are absolutely absurd right now

  https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/DIAWCFLHZ8D3/spirit.jpg

  In addition to what people have mentioned, you could play Plague. Or an insta down killer.

  in Just Apply Pressure? Healing Meta Comment by crogers271 July 1, 2025

• @Hexbadboy23 said:

  I know some killers tunnel early at 5 gens in the beginning of the match and I feel like killers like that should get punished for doing so they should lose blood points reduction or something

  I understand If it’s Nurse Blight Billy Oni Kaneki that tunnels I feel like killers with speed should get more of a punishment maybe because they can instant down u in seconds without punishment only because they can zoom fast across the map in seconds. And I think those type of killers should have punishment in my opinion.

  Also you have killers like Wraith Ghostface Pig or Onryo who are a bit weak in chases which is why they are called M1 killers for a reason who tunnel with a purpose because they are weak in chases. They tunnel because they don’t have real chase potential and those killers get constant gen rushed. Which why I think for M1 killers I don’t blame them tbh.

  
  Also let’s not forget tunneling is a strategy it’s not a specific rule that tells killers not to tunnel. You have to look at it in a killers perspective. Let’s say there’s 2 gens left or 1 gen left and you haven’t killed anyone yet. You would think that’s the reason why killers tunnel to just get a kill which I don’t blame them for tunneling if they are constantly gettting gen rushed without no real pressure.

  
  Let’s also not forget yes killers do have gen slowdowns like pain res dms pop jolt eruption deadlock etc. but sometimes that’s not enough because you are going against 4 survivors and your going against 16 perks. Survivors do have gen rushing perks that helps them. They have toolboxes with parts. They have deja vu resilience prove thyself hyperfocus stake out and etc.

  Last but not least let’s also not forget survivors do have easy second chance tunneling perks like DS and Off the record babysitter, and BT. And even dead hard.

  Let me start with the title.

  The same people that don’t play killer at all??

  While I'm sure there are some players who play only one role, the idea that people purchased a video game and only play 50% of it seems a little silly. People play both roles and complaints about tunneling have always been around.

  I know some killers tunnel early at 5 gens in the beginning of the match and I feel like killers like that should get punished for doing so they should lose blood points reduction or something

  I understand If it’s Nurse Blight Billy Oni Kaneki that tunnels I feel like killers with speed should get more of a punishment maybe because they can instant down u in seconds without punishment only because they can zoom fast across the map in seconds. And I think those type of killers should have punishment in my opinion.

  So you agree there are complaints to be made about tunneling. Your first two paragraphs are about it.

  One of the main issues is that people have different definitions of tunneling. Some players who prefer killer seem to think those who prefer survivor mean anything but 12 hooking is tunneling and needs to be changed. Really survivors are usually talking about the 3 hooks on the first survivor found to get them out of the game.

  Also let’s not forget tunneling is a strategy it’s not a specific rule that tells killers not to tunnel.

  This seems to be a new thing that by calling it a strategy it someone makes it okay as I've seen it a few times recently. Just because something is a strategy doesn't mean it isn't broken or have other game issues.

  Let’s say there’s 2 gens left or 1 gen left and you haven’t killed anyone yet. You would think that’s the reason why killers tunnel to just get a kill which I don’t blame them for tunneling if they are constantly gettting gen rushed without no real pressure.

  Not tunneling.

  If you define tunneling to mean a scenario where let's say the killer has survivors on 2/2/1/0 hooks and then runs into a 2 and 0 hook survivor and chooses the 2 hook survivor to be tunneling, I can see why calls for more anti-tunnel might seem strange. Except rarely do I see that to be the scenario, its far more frequently 2/0/0/0 hooks where the killer isn't even paying attention to the other survivors that people want BHVR to address.

  but sometimes that’s not enough because you are going against 4 survivors and your going against 16 perks

  And the killer has a power and the survivors don't. Not to mention the killer has a weapon and the survivors don't.

  It's an asym. Not only aren't the sides 'equal', they aren't even the same.

  Survivors do have gen rushing perks that helps them. They have toolboxes with parts. They have deja vu resilience prove thyself hyperfocus stake out and etc.

  Last but not least let’s also not forget survivors do have easy second chance tunneling perks like DS and Off the record babysitter, and BT. And even dead hard.

  And if I could run all ten of these perks at the same time I guess I would, but I have to choose.

  That is what makes the anti-tunnel perks an issue. If you bring them and the killer tunnels you, great, if not they are wasted slots.

  DbD is a guessing game in many ways, but it goes too far when the match is decided in the loading screen. The game should not come down to 'if they bring perk type A, survivors win, but if they don't, killer wins'.

  in Why are people complaining about tunnneling? The same people that don’t play killer at all?? Comment by crogers271 June 28, 2025

• @Scarletprince15 said:

  Hello friends (this isn't Otz),
  I’d like to share an idea I’ve had for a long time to help reduce, even if just a little, the disparity between killers, and try to close the gap between high-tier and low-tier killers. It would also help low-tier killers in general (for context, I’m a killer main, but I also enjoy playing as survivor).

  My idea is to give killers “Passive Perks.” Each killer would have at least one of these, and they can be disabled if the player chooses to. For this, I’d also like to categorize killers. The weaker the killer, the stronger the passives they receive. Meanwhile, stronger killers might not get any passives at all.

  Don’t take this too seriously, it’s just a tentative idea and I haven’t thought too deeply about how each skill would affect gameplay. In fact, I invite you to improve upon this idea and discuss it reasonably.

  Important clarification after writing this:
  No passive perk stacks with a regular perk. If a passive perk feels too weak, you can remove it and replace it with a regular perk in your perk slot.

  Another important clarification I thought of while writing: in very rare cases, there might be demerits. But these could be completely omitted if you don’t like them. And if demerits were implemented, unlike passive perks, they wouldn’t be removable.

  Killer: The Trapper

  Threat Level: ✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Ultimate Blessing of the Entity:
    Essentially basekit Corrupt Intervention. It lasts for one minute. (Doesn’t stack with Corrupt Intervention)
  • ❈ Bloodthirsty:
    Basekit Sloppy Butcher.
  • ❈ Night Stalker:
    Basekit Surveillance.

  Killer: The Wraith

  Threat Level: ✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention, but only lasts 20 seconds. (Doesn’t stack)

  Killer: The Hillbilly

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • None.

  Killer: The Nurse

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰✰✰
  Passive Perks (Demerits):

  • ❈ Blinded by the Entity:
    Can’t see auras at the start of the match (approx. 15 seconds).
  • ❈ Exposed by the Entity:
    Survivors can see the killer’s aura for 5 seconds at the start.

  Killer: The Shape

  Threat Level: ✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Advanced Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention. (Could be nerfed if using iridescent add-ons)

  Killer: The Hag

  Threat Level: ✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Advanced Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention.

  Killer: The Doctor

  Threat Level: ✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Advanced Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention.

  Killer: The Huntress

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention for 20 seconds. (Doesn’t stack)

  Killer: The Cannibal

  Threat Level: ✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Cathedral of Monsters:
    Basekit Monstrous Shrine.
  • ❈ Blessing of the Entity:
    20 seconds of basekit Corrupt Intervention.

  Killer: The Nightmare

  Threat Level: ✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Advanced Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention.

  Killer: The Pig

  Threat Level: ✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Ultimate Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention for one minute. (Doesn’t stack)

  Killer: The Clown

  Threat Level: ✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Advanced Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention.

  Killer: The Spirit

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • None.

  Killer: The Legion

  Threat Level: ✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Advanced Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention.

  Killer: The Plague

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Blessing of the Entity:
    20 seconds of basekit Corrupt Intervention. (Doesn’t stack)

  Killer: Ghost Face

  Threat Level: ✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Advanced Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention.
  • ❈ Night Stalker:
    Basekit Surveillance.

  Killer: The Demogorgon

  Threat Level: ✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Advanced Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention.
  • ❈ Eyeless Horror:
    Basekit Lightborn.

  Killer: The Oni

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • None.

  Killer: The Deathslinger

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Advanced Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention.
  • ❈ Night Stalker:
    Basekit Surveillance.

  Killer: The Executioner

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Advanced Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention.
  • ❈ Eyeless Horror:
    Basekit Lightborn.

  Killer: The Blight

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰✰✰
  Demerits:

  • ❈ Blinded by the Entity:
    No aura reading at the start (15s).
  • ❈ Chained by the Entity:
    Moves significantly slower at the start.
  • ❈ Exposed by the Entity:
    Survivors can see his aura for 5 seconds at the start.

  Killer: The Twins

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • None.

  Killer: The Trickster

  Threat Level: ✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Advanced Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention.
  • ❈ Cathedral of Monsters:
    Basekit Monstrous Shrine.

  Killer: Nemesis

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Entity’s Grasp:
    Basekit Grim Embrace.

  Killer: The Cenobite

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Bloodthirsty:
    Basekit Sloppy Butcher.

  Killer: The Artist

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • None.

  Killer: The Onryo

  Threat Level: ✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Advanced Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention.

  Killer: The Dredge

  Threat Level: ✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Advanced Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention.

  Killer: The Mastermind

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Cool Sunglasses / Eyeless Horror:
    Basekit Lightborn.

  Killer: The Knight

  Threat Level: ✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Blessing of the Entity:
    20 seconds of basekit Corrupt Intervention. (Doesn’t stack)
  • ❈ Night Stalker:
    Basekit Surveillance.

  Killer: The Skull Merchant

  Threat Level: ✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Ultimate Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention for one minute. (Doesn’t stack)
  • ❈ Bloodthirsty:
    Basekit Sloppy Butcher.

  Killer: The Singularity

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰✰
  Demerit/Benefit:

  • ❈ End-Times Balance:
    Basekit No Way Out, but cameras can’t be used near exit gates (within a large radius).

  Killer: The Xenomorph

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Advanced Blessing of the Entity:
    Basekit Corrupt Intervention.

  Killer: The Good Guy

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Night Stalker:
    Basekit Surveillance.

  Killer: The Unknown

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • None.

  Killer: The Lich

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • None.

  Killer: The Dark Lord

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • None.

  Killer: The Houndmaster

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰
  Passive Perks:

  • ❈ Relentless Punisher:
    Basekit Save the Best for Last.

  Killer: The Ghoul

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰✰✰
  Demerit:

  • ❈ Unravel:
    The Ghoul cannot use powers until hitting a survivor with a basic attack (M1).

  Killer: The Animatronic

  Threat Level: ✰✰✰ (To be determined)
  Passive Perks:

  • To be determined. I need more data.

  It's not a bad idea, but there a few issues that it runs into.

  1: Not all killers are meant to be equal, they have differing levels of difficulty. Trapper/Wraith are starting type killers, while more complex killers like Nurse have higher skill ceilings and lower skill floors. This would exacerbate that, it would make the starting killers too strong early while making something like Nurse even harder to pick up.

  2: BHVR seems to be happy with the place that most killers are at, so most of these would be 'buffs' that would need nerfs elsewhere.

  3: There's an easier solution which has been proposed a few times, that being some killers just get more perks slots than others or they get stronger gen kicks or different hook timers. Those would be easier to implement because you wouldn't have to go killer by killer, you'd just give them the same gen kick boost (as an example) that others on their level have.

  in [Proposal] Passive Perk System for Killers Comment by crogers271 June 28, 2025

• @QuestionMark220 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3952866#Comment_3952866

  Again. I don’t trust this one Dev in particular because she was proven factual ly incorrect and ignored it. So no I don’t trust her “opinion” because it wasn’t a fact now was it? She has no chart, no number stat we can see just a “trust me” statement She was flat out wrong on some things she claimed thus making them not facts.

  Don’t try to flip this on me. I said stats for killers. Like they used to do. Every killer was listed with kill rates. You can’t point to a list that has the top 5 and say it counts when there are 40 other killers. And you can’t even regard the average of all killers combined when you have Nurse and Ghost face existing at the same time.

  I’ll trust a stat sheet. Huntress was listed for pick rates but not kill rates lmao. Give me a break with that level of deceit.

  Don’t try to flip this on me. I said stats for killers. 

  You said stats for all killers. Literal words. People responded that they did that and then you said they were wrong.

  You could have said 'I see how this could have been misunderstood by saying all killers, I meant an individual breakdown for each killer'.

  But you didn't. You instead said others were wrong instead of clarifying which isn't very useful for a discussion forum. If you're going to jump to accuse others of being wrong/deceitful then you need to be precise in your own wording.

  I’ll trust a stat sheet.

  Why? Again, if you don't trust a dev, why would you trust them if they put something out in sheet form.

  Huntress was listed for pick rates but not kill rates lmao. Give me a break with that level of deceit.

  What deceit? They listed the top 5 for a few categories. Huntress is the most overall picked killer excluding the new player MMR, she isn't one of the 5 killers in either of the highest kill rate brackets they posted.

  Do you really think they're going after Huntress just to anger you?

  So no I don’t trust her “opinion” because it wasn’t a fact now was it? 

  It's still not an opinion, you're just accusing her of lying because she said she checked the stats "these stats are nowhere near accurate (yes I checked the stats)".

  in What do we think of the new nightlight stats? Comment by crogers271 June 27, 2025

• @QuestionMark220 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3952780#Comment_3952780

  I don’t believe Mandy because she has been flat out wrong on a lot of stuff. Huntress used to move at 110% until she could release a hatchet. There was a post with video eviden a ce proving it. She ignored despite commenting on it earlier. Not to mention she says Ghostface is close to 60% which I know is wrong also. Their opinion is irrelevant when they’ve been proven flat out wrong and don’t provide evidence. Simple.

  Their opinion 

  Not an opinion. She literally has access to the actual numbers.

  don’t provide evidence. Simple

  Again, what evidence would you accept? If you don't believe her when she types it, why would believe it if she was to post it in an image format or something like that?

  @QuestionMark220 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3952635#Comment_3952635

  Wrong try again! :)

  It’s been 3 years since we got kill rates for every killer individually.

  It’s been 3 years since we got kill rates for every killer individually.

  You're subtly changing your words.

  Here is what you originally said

  @QuestionMark220 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3952373#Comment_3952373

  lmao! Have fun with that! How long has it been since we got official stats for all killers? Was it two or three years?

  How long has it been since we got official stats for all killers?

  We got the the stats for all killers. You want an individual killer breakdown. The wording is similar, but if you're going to accuse others (such as @Aven_Fallen and @Mandy) of being wrong you need to be precise in your own wording.

  in What do we think of the new nightlight stats? Comment by crogers271 June 27, 2025

• @Firellius mentions a lot of good reasons that all of the boons exist within the same parameters which artificially limits what can be done with them.

  I'll add two others:

  Things that can stack are always going to be problematic for design (and BHVR hasn't done themselves any favors on this front). Do you design the perk so its strong enough on its own, or do you design the perks on the presumption that they are always going to be grouped together? The latter creates for the 'potential' for more interesting build concepts, but also means people need to commit most or all of their build to the idea (which is frequently way too dangerous because then you have no exhaustion or anti-tunnel).

  The second point, for starting survivors, who might benefit a lot more from boon effects like being able to see injured teammates or Illumination, finding totems is much harder than it is for experienced players. This creates even more of an idea that the perks are a wasted slot.

  in Boons Comment by crogers271 June 27, 2025

• @supersonic853 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3952373#Comment_3952373

  Fair I have never frequented them and it came with my anecdotal evidence (which obviously swayed my own natural opinion) that the games do seem to be harder than before and I am not pressuring as easily as I used to. Feels like a combination of survivors not giving up at every little thing and them having less natural timesinks with stuff like the healing perk buffs. Because ultimately 12 seconds healing a teammate vs like 4 with 2 heal perks. And even as survivor it feels like the matches are more pressuring since I dont have to worry about someone going next and causing the rest of us to die.

  I have never frequented them and it came with my anecdotal evidence 

  I frequent them quite a bit. Something changed in their reporting between the stat release in March and whenever the stat release before that was. Nightlight's numbers used to be within a percent or two (given a few exceptions that had reasons, i.e. Nurse and Doctor), but something changed between the last two releases and they got way off. It's unfortunate, but with how far they are off they aren't reliable about things like kill rates.

  Basically, its not recent, the kill rates have been trending down on Nightlight for quite awhile.

  @QuestionMark220 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3952473#Comment_3952473

  Proof?

  Did you not notice all of the titles next to @Mandy 's name?

  If you aren't going to believe her saying it in text why would you believe something like an image?

  in What do we think of the new nightlight stats? Comment by crogers271 June 27, 2025

• @Coffeecrashing said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951821#Comment_3951821

  Again, I hope BHVR has the same mindset with the phase 2 changes.

  We should have a "it's not anti-slugging, it's anti-slugging-all-4-survivors-at-5-generators" mechanic.

  That's probably going to be their mindset, because that's been their mindset for what they dub Quality of Life changes for awhile.

  Gen regression limits, AFC and AFK crows are meant to deal with extreme scenarios and rarely have a game impact. BHVR seems generally happy with the game and is unlikely to make radical changes. If they follow course they'll offer a minor change that they'll weaken even more after testing it on the PTB / first release.

  in Afk Crows has been nerfed Comment by crogers271 June 26, 2025

• @TWiXT said:

  After considerable consideration from the responses so far… I feel inclined to double down!

  Seriously survivors? Are you REALLY gonna let these guys speak for you? C'mon give it to us, no censorship, no judgement… Just tell us all what you HATE going up against with a passion! Doesn't matter what Perk it is! In some of these responses apparently ALL killer perks quailify, so I'll give you that, but COME ON! That's a lame generalization and you know it!

  Give Me what I asked for, and Tell the killer community what it needs to avoid to make the game more fun for all of you, and why!

  Honestly, I expected more tbh… I guess I was wrong.

  Seriously survivors? Are you REALLY gonna let these guys speak for you? C'mon give it to us, no censorship, no judgement… Just tell us all what you HATE going up against with a passion! 

  We have so much else to hate that perks fall down the list :)

  Like we have killers to hate, playstyles to hate, perks aren't a huge issue.

  Given survivors primary strength is their perks, its not surprising the killer hate gets directed towards those. Survivors have single perks that can also be situationally strong, StB, Reassurance, DS, Unbreakable, etc. They also have perks that can feel frustrating, Sprint Burst, DH, blastmine, etc.

  Looking at the ones mentioned

  Franklins - yeah, its kind of annoying to bring an item and then just have it get knocked out of your hand. Paired with Weave Attunement it basically takes a gameplay element out of the game.

  Devour Hope - that's another good one, frequently you have no idea its there and then suddenly the killer tears through everyone, but it certainly adds an excitement element.

  NOED - I'll defend NOED as an important perk for the game. Yeah it's kind of cheap, but it makes the end game much more exciting with the possibility that it might be in play.

  BBQ/Plaything - Nah, these are fine. Unlike some other aura reads BBQ gets the killer to spread out and Plaything creates an interesting choice.

  Some others have mentioned Nowhere to Hide. I'd agree with that, it takes out an important element of the survivor gameplay - do I try hiding, or do I run? Now you just run which makes it more boring.

  Penti and Knockout would have been clear winners not too long ago as they really slowed down the game.

  Looking at my comments, I think the perks that get the most hate are the ones that reduce gameplay elements or feel like they get people 'stuck' in the game. Full anti-heal builds on the killer part are close to this, but even then the players still have multiple options on how to deal with it. When the game gets reduced to a single counterplay element (i.e. Nowhere to Hide, always run, never hide) is when perks feel poorly designed. Fortunately most of the extreme ones have been nerfed / changed.

  in What are the top 5 Most Hated Killer perks? Comment by crogers271 June 26, 2025

• @Coffeecrashing said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951776#Comment_3951776

  The crows are currently so lenient, that I don’t understand why BHVR still has it in the game.

  Why are we pretending to have an AFK crow mechanic, when survivors can hide for over 20 minutes, if they open 1 chest during that timeframe?

  I feel like this is the new version of 'it's not anti-camp its anti face camp'

  The survivor in this hypothetical is clearly not AFK. Anti-hiding elements were always going to be difficult for a game were hiding is a core element of the gameplay.

  in Afk Crows has been nerfed Comment by crogers271 June 26, 2025

• @gingerGeorge12 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3951683#Comment_3951683

  How the hell does that make the killer games easy its a simple fix to a mechanic that the killer can’t do anything about.

  You aren't 'fixing' anything, you are making it killer sided. There is no inherent reason either side should have priority in these cases (i.e. its not a bug that survivors get priority).

  If you switch the priority to killers, now survivors can't do anything in these scenarios.

  And there's lots of reasons to keep it with the survivors.

  The gen one would be the most egregious. Right now it creates exactly the feeling a game should want. Do we stick out the gen and risk the hits / a grab, or run for it? Survivors need to make this decision well before the killer gets there, you can't just skip to the 99% moment. You have an interesting, tense decision that needs to be made that involves timing, risk, and trade offs, everything that when pulled off right is what makes DbD fun.

  This would just eliminate that. If the killer always has kick priority, just run for it.

  The killer's counterplay to survivor actions is his weapon, the survivors counterplay is actually doing the actions. If the killer got priority on both it would take out lots of important game elements.

  in Killer Action Priority Over Survivor Interactions Comment by crogers271 June 26, 2025

• @XDgamer018 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950247#Comment_3950247

  At the same time a 60% kill rate is a little over a 2k pet match wich means most games should be a draw...

  That's a common math mistake that comes up way too much on the forums and has been talked about extensively.

  Basically, if you have a range of data (0k, 1k, 2k, 3k, 4k) and you average them out (2.4k), the average of the data does not mean that is most common data point. In DbD's case the 2k is probably the least common occurrence of the 5 possibilities.

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 June 26, 2025

• @StalkingYou said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950541#Comment_3950541

  You can call it "working backwards" but can you explain how my statement is actually false?
  
  If you're playing a card game and you've intentionally decided to only use bad cards (while your opponent can use whatever they want) and STILL win, I am going to assume your opponent is pretty bad. The fact that neither you or anyone else has been trying to argue that those cards are actually good is proof enough for me that you guys know that splitting hooks is a bad strategy, but you still want killers to do it.

  You can call it "working backwards" but can you explain how my statement is actually false?

  Sure. I'll start with your premise which you put at the end.

  The fact that neither you or anyone else has been trying to argue that those cards are actually good is proof enough for me that you guys know that splitting hooks is a bad strategy, but you still want killers to do it.

  What is a bad strategy? I've asked a couple of times for you to define what you mean and you don't and that leaves me guessing at it (which creates a secondary confusion because we don't know what BHVR will actually do). I want to say @Firellius argued this in a different thread, but you are describing something as bad in comparison to something that is way too strong.

  You seem to be defining as 'bad' anything less than non-optimal strategy. Instead you should be looking at whether something is too strong to be in the game and what the viability of other options would be if it was changed (and again, we don't know what they are going to do).

  The whole point of the thread is that tunneling is too strong, thus deserving to be nerfed. Once upon a time for survivors running anything but instagen completing BNPs was bad strategy. Then running anything but Dead Hard. Then for a while MFT.

  Anything else was bad strategy, but they deserved to be nerfed because they were too strong (and in most cases, also boring and hurt the theme of the game).

  Also to your comment about wanting 'killers to do it', I, and others, are arguing that BHVR should change it. I don't think survivors should have avoided using the above just because they were too strong, just as I don't expect killers to avoid overpowered tactics.

  You can play the game however you want, but BHVR should change them.

  If you're playing a card game and you've intentionally decided to only use bad cards (while your opponent can use whatever they want) and STILL win, I am going to assume your opponent is pretty bad.

  So this is a good hypothetical and it shows three problems some people have approaching the game.

  Problem 1: Card games, like DbD, have lots of randomness. You can handicap yourself and win, the opponents could handicap themselves and you could still lose. You would need multiple games to access the skill of the opponents (especially in DbD which has lots of guessing game elements). As the OP said, you aren't meant to win every game and so taking any loss as a failure of strategy is a bad approach.

  Problem 2: You've already made up your mind on what the 'bad' strategy is. In a card game, this would be like if you believed a player should pursue an aggressive playstyle, and then you watch someone take a cautious playstyle and win. Instead of reevaluating the merits of different playstyles, you just presume the opponents they played against must have been bad.

  Problem 3: Your use of bad is presuming that what currently exists is the baseline (i.e. tunneling as is). Instead you actually have a trump card that no one else has access to and you might potentially lose it, even though many people show you can still win without that card.

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 June 26, 2025

• @Hunkulese said:

  Most of the quality of life changes they've made recently have been great, but the awful quest system almost ruins the game for me. All the quests are brainless and are basically just play the game. The most interesting quest we've seen for the rift pass has been to use scourge hooks. You could never look at the quests, and you'd still complete all of them easily.

  I know they caved to the people complaining about some of the challenges being too hard, but isn't that the point? Sacrificing four survivors in the basement felt awesome when I finally got it. Now the quests are to chase survivors for 800 seconds. Riveting.

  The daily challenges used to give us a reason to try someone we wouldn't usually play. Now it's just kick 3 gens, earn the amount of bloodpoints you'd get in a match by doing literally anything but standing in a corner, and kill 1 survivor.

  The challenges gave us something to work at and break up the monotony of playing the same game for 1000s of hours. When they were talking about the different paths in the tomes, I was really hoping they start bringing back challenges that actually took some effort. And now I'm basically done with the Rift Pass, and that's it for a month?

  I agree, though no idea on the overall player sentiment. Completing the tome felt like a nice addition, the quests are just background things.

  in The quest system might be the worst change they've ever made. Comment by crogers271 June 25, 2025

• @StalkingYou said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950350#Comment_3950350

  It's such a funny coincidence that whenever I point out that the strategy you want killers to employ every game doesn't work against good teams, you either don't address it or bring up something else.
  
  Or, you interpret "good teams" as "comp teams" and go "those only make up .000000001% of the matches you play so who cares"

  There's no way to address it because you've established a conclusion and are working backwards from it.

  You basically have a non-falsifiable statement - anyone who posts video of them winning a match as killer where they didn't tunnel shows the survivors where bad. Anyone who posts a video of them as killer not tunneling, but the survivors win, show that the survivors were good.

  People have taken the challenge and posted video, but it always gets met with the same response of 'those are just bad survivors'.

  To actually analyze the comparative effectiveness of strategies you'd need to start by defining what you do or don't consider tunneling and how do we determine what marks a good survivor group.

  @Raptorrotas said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950515#Comment_3950515

  Dont bother, the community is having problems to aknowledge the existence of bad players on the killer side.

  you probably seen the "killstats shows nurse needs buffs"-retort, should suffice as explanation.

  Sure, bad killer players exist. Conceptually they should be matched up with bad survivors, though sometimes they'll be matched out of their level, just like happens with survivors. The point remains the same, if they have an overpowered tactic, especially when considering the ease of implementation, it should be nerfed (which doesn't even get into issues like game enjoyment which are also possible discussions).

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 June 25, 2025

• @AmpersandUnderscore said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3950350#Comment_3950350

  I'm not familiar with this one, and Google thinks I'm searching for an attorney. Could you elaborate?

  It's a statement I made a while back that @Firellius has been kind enough to credit me for:

  'Good survivors are unbeatable, ergo, if the killer won, the survivors must not have been good'

  Original usage.

  @crogers271 said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3933424#Comment_3933424

  Now its

  "Show us how you play without tunneling, whilst you going afk at the start of the round, while spinning in place for 5 minutes, while the survivors are coordinating, while the stars aligning…"

  I think that's a great point.

  It basically boils down to: '[insert strategy here] is unbeatable, ergo if you beat the survivors, they must not have been using [insert strategy here], because its unbeatable.'

  It is related the example of 'Good survivors are unbeatable, ergo if the killer won, the survivors must not have been good'.

  People have established their conclusion and are working backwards from that instead of looking at evidence and working toward a conclusion.

  Thankfully the word 'ergo' is not used a lot so I could use search to find it.

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 June 24, 2025

• @TimberGoingDown said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3948913#Comment_3948913

  Can you read this particular killer player's mind? Unless they came out and said that that's what they were doing, then you can't say that they were trying to wait out the clock.

  Unless they came out and said that that's what they were doing

  I mean, they did say that:

  "skull merchants who rely on "chasing" to get downs are cringe + boring and will always get outperformed by anyone who plays her in the way that she was designed (defending a 3 gen like it's a game of chess) ..."

  I'd link to twitter, but its a game image with names not blacked out.

  Many people took them seriously as if they were actually claiming that SM 3 genning took strategy, but I think they were being sarcastic/provoking and were just showing off how easily abusable SM was.

  in Whats up with all the dejavu rn? Comment by crogers271 June 24, 2025

• @TimberGoingDown said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949795#Comment_3949795

  But would you trade, say… basekit Corrupt for it?

  Different hypothetical.

  The patch you brought up the killers lost a powerful strategy and in return received numerous basekit buffs. This meant every killer player not engaging in that strategy got a buff for nothing.

  I'd easily make that trade as a survivor to lose something like powerful items that many survivors don't even use for a basekit buff even if minor that would effect every survivor.

  @IamtheMilkman said:

  You’re either a survivor main or you’re not playing at high mmr. I’m here to win and I’m gonna do everything in my power to, I shouldn’t have to follow some made up survivor rule book when the game is already unfair for me.

  Which is great, except the thread is about getting BHVR to change the game design, not any type of survivor rulebook.

  @StalkingYou said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949862#Comment_3949862

  do you think there are ever games where the killer has to tunnel/camp in order to win

  What's your definition of tunnel?

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 June 24, 2025

• @TimberGoingDown said:

  https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3949695#Comment_3949695

  Survivors will literally never get over when killers got 2.5% on kicks and a quarter of a second off of their pallet breaks. By the way, that was the same update that gave survivors basekit BT, which is arguably a lot more impactful than .2 seconds off of a gen kick.

  These are the patch notes for 6.1, for those wondering about these "amazing buffs that killers got."

  • Generators take 90 seconds for a single survivor to repair (was 80 seconds)
  • Killers kicking a generator now immediately cause a 2.5% loss of progress in addition to starting regression
  • Bloodlust trigger times have been reduced to 15 seconds for Tier 1, 25 seconds for Tier 2, and 35 seconds for Tier 3 (was 15 seconds, 30 seconds, and 45 seconds)
  • The following Killer actions have been sped up by 10%:
    • Time to kick a pallet or wall has been reduced to 2.34 seconds (was 2.6 seconds)
    • Time to kick a generator has been reduced to 1.8 seconds (was 2 seconds)
    • Cooldown time after a successful hit has been reduced to 2.7 seconds (was 3 seconds)
    • Duration of the Survivor speed boost when hit has been reduced to 1.8 seconds (was 2 seconds)
  • Survivors now have a modified version of Borrowed Time as a baseline ability, no perk required
  • Unhooked Survivors now get a 7% movement speed bonus and Endurance for 5 seconds
  • The speed bonus and Endurance effect are removed if the Survivor performs a Conspicuous Action
  • New Term - Conspicuous Actions
    • Includes: Repairing a Generator, healing yourself or others, cleansing or blessing a Totem, sabotaging a hook, unhooking a survivor, and opening an exit gate.
    • Added a new section and description to the Game Manual.
    • Endurance status effect is now cancelled by Conspicuous Actions

  These are the patch notes for 6.1, for those wondering about these "amazing buffs that killers got."

  As a person who really only started playing shortly after 6.1 was, those actually seem pretty amazing.

  The killer lost out on one really powerful strategy, and in return gained buffs to lots of other elements of their gameplay. If you didn't employ that strategy, or you were against survivors who would have been using BT anyway, its a pretty big positive.

  Like as a survivor I would gladly trade syringes and stacked commodious toolboxes for basekit 10% faster vaults. The vast majority of players would lose nothing and those fractions of a second when they grant/deny a hit are critical.

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 June 24, 2025

• The BT protection works like Mettle of Man and doesn't cause deep wound.

  I've always thought the 'no collision' is a fine idea, but BHVR would think it doesn't fit the game.

  After what they've done on AFK, @BorisDDAA very well might be spot on.

  @AshFayd 's idea is pretty interesting as a possibility they might consider.

  in What do YOU think BHVR is going to do to address tunneling? Comment by crogers271 June 23, 2025

• @MagicDragon said:

  …is an argument to nerf tunneling. You're not meant to consistently win games, you're meant to win some and lose some; to be inconsistent.

  As a person who tends to make posts that are way too long, I have great admiration for posts like that this that can be both poignant and succinct.

  in "Tunneling is the only way to consistently win" Comment by crogers271 June 23, 2025

• Do I just have unrealistic hopes for my capabilities? Is it simply a skill issue that I can't beat the stacks who come with all of those things? 

  Yes, its unrealistic. People have put in ten times the amount of hours that you have into the game.

  Additionally, the game has lots of random elements and variability. It is not, by design, a game that is meant to be won every time.

  Finally, having an 80% win rate at a multiplayer game is already asking a lot.

  I find it hard to accept a loss when I struggle to see what I really did wrong.

  That's part of the game. You (and the survivors) are playing with limited info. Some people like that they don't know for sure what is going on the other side of the map, some people hate it. Some don't like the guessing game of trying to bring the right perks without being certain what you are going to hit, others like the variety and surprise.

  But the forum is thrilled with people who love to analyze matches if you post some.

  It just gets to the point now where I feel like I should be bringing everything possible into a match to give myself the best chance of winning, but then the fun starts to slowly disappear.

  That's the DbD trap.

  The game allows you to be sweaty. Bring the best addons and perks. As a killer you can also tunnel and slug for the 4k which will vault you up the MMR brackets and suddenly those strategies get hard countered. Survivors can boost themselves too through SWFing, but that's not quite as simple to arrange as what the killer has.

  But if that's the way you primarily play, its hard to play any other.

  in As a competitive player who hates losing, I'm getting tired of queuing killer Comment by crogers271 June 22, 2025