cogsturning
cogsturning
About
- Username
- cogsturning
- Joined
- Visits
- 5,298
- Last Active
Comments
-
@tyantlmumagjiaonuha said:
The pallet density remains high, but the loop's safety has changed significantly. You should focus more than ever on either extending the distance per lap by utilizing connections between pallets and windows, or skillfully directing pallets to hit the Killer directly.
Previously, some maps allowed for a 5gen chase just by mindlessly touring the pallets, but such easy games are no longer possible going forward.
PS. Is Disturbed Ward's main building bugged? I encountered instances where 6 pallets spawned and others where only 2 spawned.
skillfully directing pallets to hit the Killer directly.
And what skill shall the killer be focusing on?
Previously, some maps allowed for a 5gen chase just by mindlessly touring the pallets
If you let yourself be lead arund like this that's on you. Learn when to drop chase.
-
@Deadman7600 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032228#Comment_4032228
Some players. Not all. Some.
Just like not all survivors are crybabies who dc every time I breathe in this game, not all killers want instant gratification. And I doubt you could even say its a lot of killer players who like this that's just a strawman based on trolls and bad players. Calling for a revert is not calling for instant gratification, we just want to be able to go five steps without breaking pallets (like when springtrap came out). The killer playerbase is overall smaller but it's the one with 'the most skill' for lack of a better word (this is also why killers are more vocal, overall they're more dedicated). That's not me saying the survivor playerbase is unskilled, just that the playerbase and the mode itself leans a bit more casual. There's a lot of skill you can gleam from survivor especially at the mid-high range but killer is the mode that is seen as (and is) more challenging especially when you start off. Removing the challenge kills the fun of the mode just the same as making it pallet break simulator.
Actually, what I just said gave me a thought. Is this what they meant when they said improve the new player experience? Istg.
I disagree with almost all of this.
From what I see in my survivor matches, it's not a small portion of cheap killers. People who hard tunnel the first person they see aren't in every game, but they're common enough, and even when they're unsuccessful, they clearly wanted the path of least resistance. Same for slugging for the 4k. Why have any challenging hunts for the last survivor when you can make one lick the floor until you find the other? I have friends who, for whatever mysterious reason, are AFK at the start of basically every match. Killers with Lethal come over and down them without a second thought, almost always. Even if I stand there and shake my head at them, it just earns me a down too. They have two people who aren't even contributing to the match at that moment yet still go for the easy path.
I agree killer mains are often more dedicated (though I think that's a nice word for it) but that doesnt mean it's higher skill. Killers can win with little to no skill. Survivor is far more percise, as well as info-heavy. One tiny mistake in a chase and you can be downed, and even if you juice the hell out if someone, they can eventually bloodlust until there's nothing you can do. One tiny mistake in end game and am assured 0k can become a sudden 4k. I put much less effort into killer than survivor but do much better. Killer is certainly the more stressful role, as you have to be in a constant motion, whereas survivor has quiet moments.
Different killers also have different skill levels. There are plenty you can hop on for the first time and win. I just got Vecna and tested him out for the first time last night. I wasnt trying very hard, just trying to get a feel, yet the two matches were both 4Ks, even with me bumbling my way through learning the spell wheel. And my opponents weren't awful players or anything. I started this game as a killer-only player and despite never interacting with videos or social media, no knowledge of anythng meta or any techs, not understanding survivor perks or gameplay one single bit, and barely understanding killer ones either, I still did fine playing very casually. And I didn't touch survivor for a long time becuase I found it too difficult. You also have to worry about dragging your team down. As killer, I liked being responsible for just me.
I didn't have any issue with the pallets as killer so I didn't even understand these complaints, and a lot of what I saw was people making whole new posts because they clearly had one or two bad games and blamed pallets. Did I break a few more? Sure. But I was still sitting at a 78% KR for the 30 day period before the revert, so it didn't seem to affect me much.
-
@Nazzzak said:
Last update of the year too. Happy holidays everyone lol enjoy the upcoming Bone Chill event 🥳
At least I can get some ugly Christmas Sweaters to get tunneled out in while navigating dead zones 🎄 🎁
-
@THE_Crazy_Hyena said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4032246#Comment_4032246
I wouldn't be surprised. Or pallets would be replaced with "party pallets" that break automatically when dropped.
And you'll have to unlock them in the bloodweb and bring them with you into the game.
-
Enjoy what you have while you can. We're deleting pallets from the game next patch.
-
Maybe it was the zillion unnuanced complaints that pallets destroyed 90% of the roster?
And I think you might be giving some people too much credit. I'm sure plenty of players want easy wins for ego boosting.
-
2x
-
Curious why the anti-camp needed to be "fairer to both side." I've never once accidentally triggered it as killer, yet I get camped into second/death pretty regularly as survivor.
-
@Nayaselay said:
don't bother considering the needs of solo queuers - they're just the silent majority.
"Silent" is the key word. They need to start raising their passive little voices to the shriek levels of some of these killer-players.
-
@Another_LegionMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031730#Comment_4031730
survivor is meant to be the unsafe role, the one on the backfoot. naturally, there will be unsafe spots on maps. if you struggle to spin or avoid killers, or cant run a loop and spend pallets like the Weimar printed money, then get more practice in.
Get more practice in? Yet killers can win the chase just by braindead bloodlusting around a tiny loop. How hard do you need the game to just hand you the down?
-
What a shocker. No one saw this coming.
-
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031566#Comment_4031566
"It's all quite draining"
I literally don't have the mental energy to care anymore. It's true what you said, about reading older posts and it's just everyone repeatedly arguing about the same things. I've removed any and all expectations for this game, because expectations just lead to disappointment. As long as killer is still fun for me, I'm here. It's my only saving grace because I hate playing survivor now.
Watching things crash and burn cause this community can't let us have nice things is equally exhausting. Even seeing the writing on the wall, the second revert hit me harder than I thought it would. I'd rather them just do nothing then act they will and then not.
I want to love survivor but I don't know what I'll do if I run out of friends that keep it fun, and making more through soloq is hard on my already stunted social meter. I don't see myself going back to being a killer-only player either. It feels like players just get burnt out and pushed out, then replaced with new ones.
-
Nothing. I like the perks, have fun trying new killers, don't use gen regress, haven't been bothered by pallets, and can't see end game chat.
-
@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030899#Comment_4030899
This is a take I hadn't considered. It makes a lot of sense to be honest. 🤔
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030903#Comment_4030903
I do believe both drive the game, for sure. But cosmetics are more so for those that are already here, while the chapters drive numbers. If the former fails, they just have to pull the latter. Or offer more free copies on Epic. 😵
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030908#Comment_4030908
Now you know why I say "in my opinion" like it's going out of style. 🥴 And absolutely. That's the most interesting part to me over the years. I never thought about it too deeply until I played other games in the genre and the same mentality persisted in every single one—"I can't play unless you suffer". It's different from other PVP games.
It's exhausting because players have been having the same exact conversations for nearly a decade now. There's only so much you can say that hasn't been said before and shot down the exact same way every single time. It's like you're juggling constant rejection and the emotions of others. DBD and the community is akin to having a really toxic spouse that you're too invested in to divorce (in my opinion 😏). I'm not above admitting that the exit survey debacle was incredibly frustrating because of how juvenile it was. Or that the rollercoaster with anti-camp/tunnel/slug has been totally draining too. It's a normal thing to lose your cool sometimes or to tap out I think.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030913#Comment_4030913
This also makes sense. Anyone that learns Survivor knows that the level of skill you need to get ahead is both extensive and easily negated depending on factors beyond your control. However that is constantly downplayed in a number of ways in order for everyone to focus on Killer (which to be fair, has a learning curve of its own especially if you plan on maining more than one).
I think this also is good because it can apply to both sides. If Survivor was really the power role everyone claims that it is, we'd be seeing the same attitude from them as well. I have zero doubt about that.
Trust me, there aren't enough IMOs in the world to soften some of my more vicious opinions. They will never be revealed.
But I try to mentally keep track of some of the more vocal forum members and how their takes and little tidbits they reveal about their lives connect, and I try to shape them into something whole in my mind, since we're all just words on a screen. It's a whole lot of silly assuming, but it's an amusing pastime, and some patterns do start to emerge.
It's exhausting because players have been having the same exact conversations for nearly a decade now
Funny thing, I occasionally go hunting through old posts looking for some slice of information I want and I'll end up skimming a post from 2020 or something and it's like watching the same people have the same exact discussions, with some people being short and aggressive, and some being thoughtful and detailed—except they've all been banned lol
DBD and the community is akin to having a really toxic spouse that you're too invested in to divorce (in my opinion 😏).
Yeah, I feel this way, like I'm in a bad relationship and I can't leave because I've invested too much time.
I'm not above admitting that the exit survey debacle was incredibly frustrating because of how juvenile it was.
Juvenile is the word. It sometimes feels like you're talking to angsty, faux-persecuted teenagers. There's been posts here where people subtlely reveal their age ranges with some personal info and many seem to be 30-45ish, and I'm always amazed to see these people who I've classified in my mind as fully grown adults get genuinely pressed about a dude in a Mad Hatter top hat and a leopard speedo doing rapid squats, or the ones who get mad that people abandon during the mori because they need to rub the win in their face.
It's a normal thing to lose your cool sometimes or to tap out I think.
This is true though. I noticed when the current ptb drama got really loud and things were looking bleak, a lot of familiar faces quieted down. It's all quite draining.
-
@CrossTheSholf said:
Any survivors want to address the genuine problems killer mains had with the ptb? Or just sling strawmen around?
Additionally, I would like to hear your definitions of slugging and tunneling. Is it tunneling to hook meg, kate, Meg, Adam, Meg? What if a Steve who was just unhooking bodyblocked for his unhooker. Is going after Steve tunneling? Or what if the last survivor who was unhooked jumped on a gen in the killers face? Would hooking them be tunneling?
Is it tunneling to hook meg, kate, Meg, Adam, Meg?
This needs more context. If Kate gets downed unhooking Meg, you toss her on the same hook and pick up Meg's still fresh trail, hook her again, then Adam does the same trade and the cycle repeats, than yes, it is. You're intentionally targeting the Meg before she can reorientate or heal, while the others are just bonuses. However, it you just find the Meg again, like 30s later, than no.
What if a Steve who was just unhooking bodyblocked for his unhooker.
I don't consider this tunneling (if we're using "tunneling" as a dirty word) regardless of the role I'm playing. I won't necessarily triple hook someone for this, but I will double hook them because they invited it, just Iike I understand that invitation as survivor and usually only bodyblock if the unhooker is on death hook. I'll take the double hook if it keeps someone alive, and I won't compain about it.
Or what if the last survivor who was unhooked jumped on a gen in the killers face?
No. They chose to re-enage instead of slinking away to heal. But personally, I'd probably just slug this person and put them in time out for stupidity.
My personal defintion is actually very narrow. To me, the killer's intent is what defines tunneling. There have been plenty of times where I've been double hooked because of just plain bad luck, like I stumbled onto the killer on accident. I don't blame them for that. But if someone runs away off-hook to heal in a corner and you pursue them, that's true tunneling.
-
@FerrousFacade said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031541#Comment_4031541
We can assume a higher real kill rate though. Survivors DC more and those matches typically end in the killer winning. Obviously we shouldn't count those matches for balancing reasons and the numbers should be presented both with and without but it would be helpful to know what kill rates look like when these matches are included. If there is a high enough discrepancy between the two it might even be the kick some people need to DC less.
I would love to see these two sets of numbers side-by-side.
-
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031480#Comment_4031480
Well again we cannot assume a higher % kill rate because as we agreed before, we don't know if they are including the abandons in their official stats released to us. Also, I know your anecdotals were dc's more relating to losses, however most my dc's are near the beginning before the games even lost.
I'm talking about DCs, not abandons. But Nazzzak said above that abandon matches were stated to not be counted as well. I personally don't remember the parameters that came out with the numbers, nor can I find the info.
But let's assume, for the sake of argument, that abandon matches are also tossed, which I think would be absurd. Out of my 116 matches, 52 featured at least one abandon. That's 44%. If that many were excluded, then what even matters?
-
@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031496#Comment_4031496
Yeah i have a number of them.
I haven't got any screenshots regarding Abandons though, aside from when we last got official stats and they said matches with hatch, DC, and abandons don't count in official KR/ERs. Prior to that, Peanits has said before that matches with hatch and DCs don't count. So stands to reason that Abandons function in the system the same as a DC. If they did count DCs and abandons, then they'd have to count hatch as an escape and I'm not sure how I'd feel about that tbh. Making hatch a win condition would increase slugging for the 4k.
In regards to personal MMR, if someone DCs (and presumably abandons) or gets hatch, then the killer doesn't get any sort of MMR increase or decrease for that particular survivor (and neither does the survivor themself), but still will for any other survivors sacrificed/escaped that match (and how much MMR they get or lose depends on the individual survivor's MMR - you get more increase for sacrificing a higher MMR survivor than a lower MMR survivor). That's because MMR is treated as a 1v1v1v1v1. I suppose this is to stop people from ping ponging between MMR brackets. But I could be wrong.
I haven't got any screenshots regarding Abandons though, aside from when we last got official stats and they said matches with hatch, DC, and abandons don't count in
officialKR/ERs.
Whoa what? The whole match is tossed for these things?! This is almost every single match that happens!
Making hatch a win condition would increase slugging for the 4k.
It's already pretty bad but we could just solve slugging for the 4k. First of the two people who gets downed can self-recover in 30s, or they can fast bleedout in 30s and rob the killer of the kill. Both options would help convince killers to hook instead of slug. Why have the hatch anyway if we're going to treat it this way?
-
People just be mad about literally anything you do.
-
@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031496#Comment_4031496
They also exclude DC from killer side, AFK, go next and farming matches according their words. From both sides. What the actual numbers then? What DC rates? Now we have to second-third guess, so again, no proofs claiming stats are changed in specific way. The fact they are changed and that they go through MMR the only truth.
It doesn't change the fact that the biggest elephant in a room players playing on MMR they don’t belong too and have them inflated. So even if you gonna include these DCes to stats, they aren’t gonna stop being trash.
I understand why they exclude DCes, because from sportsmanlike behaviour this is considered griefing in any normal game and match overall shouldn't be counted. I don't understand other — why they hiding conditions and force people second guess. The point you making research over game considering well. Match that was played in appropriate way to judge balance state. You can’t include DC games just because it's half of matches in this game. The only thing you can do is reconsider abandon and change win conditions.
If this is inflated following your logic — it just proves win conditions are cost nothing and high KR/low ER shouldn't be the reason of specific decision making around balancing. So hinting “we need inflate/deflate rates, so that's why X change is justified” simply not working. Because you are trying to make decision according data that gathered in wrong way, and therefore compromised.
If it turns out survs ER even lower, then you fundamentally need reconsider mmr conditions and way of data gathering. Because you can’t make any rational conclusion over bs that's not working.
Basically… it’s same as their surveys. They not working simply as they supposed to.
They had 9 years for figuring out what to do and the best idea was breaking MMR, fundamentally making any data unworthy.
They also exclude DC from killer side, AFK, go next and farming matches according their words
Do you have a reference for this? I'd like to know more about that. I'm not even sure how they'd identify some of those things.
I'd also say killer DCs are way less common. I've probably had 5 in my last 100 survivor matches, and one I recall didn't seem intentional, probably an internet problem, because they were on a winning trajectory. And, as I stated, 17% of my killer matches had survivor DCs in them.
I understand why they exclude DCes, because from sportsmanlike behaviour this is considered griefing in any normal game and match overall shouldn't be counted
Sometimes, but I've been in many matches where a survivor on death hook gets downed and immediately DCs out of anger. They were going to die anyway, and nothing in the match was changed, yet now it's been thrown out.
If it turns out survs ER even lower, then you fundamentally need reconsider mmr conditions and way of data gathering. Because you can’t make any rational conclusion over bs that's not working.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if true ERs are 30-35% and KRs are 65-70%. The killer is the selling role of this game. They have to keep them happy. I know the forum isn't the best example of average players, but when people post their stats here, almost all are well above the 60%. Many are in the 75-90% range. Even my overall KR is above the 60% and I'm not good at all, and I also give hatches and mercy. So it's hard for me to believe that killers are sitting at 60%. Meanwhile, people post their inflated survivor stats to make people shut up about soloq being hard. And it's not like they can't fix it. Just adjust abandons to register as losses. Show us the real numbers so we have something to go off of.
They had 9 years for figuring out what to do and the best idea was breaking MMR, fundamentally making any data unworthy.
Well, there's a rework coming, God help us. It'll probably just get worse. People liked the rank system. They need to reconsider something similar.
-
@tes said:
If people do 4 DC on 5 gens this match is basically go as “farming” one. No point to count it to KR of killer when matched turns to custom. The only issue such games go as + to survivors.
I’m still confused why you so aggressively insist abandon inflates KR when your own post proving otherwise. And you have zero proofs of BHVR secret numbers being specific one. Alongside with post of them “extracting DC rates” they made few other announcement, like them being able to make a difference between farming match and actual one.
There are unclarity on what happening in their internal data, and nothing can support sentiment that stats are inflated in Killer favour. The only proofs we have now is not working MMR that inflating KR through trash matchmaking.The individual, personal killer stats are not inflated. I never said they were. They're accurate. That's what I proved.
But the overall stats they relaese to us, they've said that DCs are excluded. I put a screenshot above of a dev saying so. It's old, and I know there are more quotes, I just can't find them (@Nazzzak maybe has some screenshots?)
So I'm saying the non-personal numbers they show us are likely deflated (not inflated) because of the subtracted DCs since, I'd venture to guess (based on my own experience), matches with survivor DCs are usually killer wins. So a lot of killer wins are subtracted from the global numbers they show us.
I can only make speculations, obviously, since no one wants to explain anything to us, but if I can't trust some of the numbers, it's hard for me trust any.
-
@Classic_Rando said:
The players should not have to do their own scientific studies to investigate this. BHVR could simply come out and tell us how the stats work, but they haven’t and that is very telling. Based on the way they have handled this, there is zero reason to trust anything they say.
The silence on our inquires had been so deafening I figured I might as well. And hey, it gave me a sense of purpose for a month while I waste my life on this game.
-
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031455#Comment_4031455
Abandons always being a loss sounds fair. As long as the killer abandoning after all survivors have abandoned still gives them the win (currently doesn't).
DC's I believe are currently just all thrown out. Which there's so many DC's right now that's throwing numbers all off as well. It's a little more awkward making the DC's work like abandons (losses) since unlike abandons, which have specific criteria which is generally a lost game, DC's can be any time for any of numerous random reasons that have nothing to do with losing. As mentioned before I don't know how we'd fix this stat altering issue other than making dc stats be included but also make dc's way more punishing to make them much less prevalent.
It's a little more awkward making the DC's work like abandons (losses) since unlike abandons, which have specific criteria which is generally a lost game, DC's can be any time for any of numerous random reasons that have nothing to do with losing
This is true, but just in my small sample, as I said, it was almost all ragequits over me winning. If I recall, two of the Dredge DCs were at the beginning of the match, and I was using the recorder add-on that starts the match with Nightfall, so that might have well been an accessibility issue for those players. But, for the most part, the DCs were late-game.
I'm not positive about this math because I don't have my notes with me, but if I subtract the 20 DC matches from my sample, my KR for the month goes from 78.66% to 72.39%. That would be BHVRs official secret number for me for the month, and that's a noteworthy dip. Now magnify that by everyone, including people much better than me who probably see more DCs. I wouldn't be surprised if true KRs were actually hovering around 70% overall. Imagine how many people DC against god Nurses.
I don't know what can be done either but I think I'd rather them be included. They're still a reflection of what's happening in a match and a bot doesn't automatically ruin the game.
Though the obvious server DCs definitely need to be tossed.
-
@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031460#Comment_4031460
Surprisingly, my stats still show abandon as dc?
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/HU3K5MUWTJRH/img-2901.jpeg
here abandons mark as escapes, dc as dc
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/GS6WA5DNQ276/img-2900.jpeg
yet my own result is pictured as dc, when I abandoned
Stats are broken to such state, that for example they showed me escaped Leon instead of DCed (not abandon)
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/NVCY61VWCMPO/img-2902.png
The funny stuff I don’t remember Leon during this match. It supposed to be David.
I'm guessing it looks different on the killer end compared to the survivor end, even for the same matches. All survivor abandons now show with the escape icon on match history for me. The DCs have the DC image and a 0 score.
-
@tes said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031441#Comment_4031441
I would assume killer stats could potentially be messed up with the abandon option as well, but who ever uses it as killer
It doesn't really work because you yourself proved rn killer stats are correct. While survivors one are actually inflated, according posts of some people regard this topic. As I remember @BorisDDAA was one of them? While on stats devs provided it was clear that they are matching to each other. Math not doing math as supposed to.
It just proved that BHVR using other tool when sharing stats with us, and that as it was said by mod, abandoning isn't tracked for survivor MMR, so the great fanbase basically unconsciously smurfing
I assume… this website is just broken. When I did 100 games as Executioner and was recording stats, noticed that the time of match is different from website claims on 10-30 seconds. Old players complaining stats are not correct. People randomly see abandones as escapes, but this is inconsistent. I checked myself and see no logic beside ones.
- If whole team abandons before any survivor dying in game, all of them will be marked as escaped, but killer keep status of merciless killer (so 4k counted and go for killer’s stats). But you also can not getting this status, and actually it will count as loss. There are zero consistency here and it's clearly a bug.
- If whole team abandons when someone is already dead, last survivor has higher chance to be marked as escaped.
- Killer stats seems to be affected only when whole team abandons, record glitches, and mark them as escaped even as bots.
- Killer stats guarantee affected if you abandon yourself, even after hooking everyone or slugged, until someone not dead.
I gave up on making post myself because this bs actually doesn't have pattern. The only stuff I noticed myself - Killer KR is more clear than ER, while survivor info from recent matches more clear then killer’s one.
I don’t mean it's survivors fault when said about smurfing. No, it’s clearly devs decision, majority even doesn't know this so no reason to blame community. But it just makes it clear that survivors are playing with highly inflated MMR. A huge part of frustration can simply exist because they matched with people of braces they don’t belong to. Add broad MMR braces, filler lobbies, and game doomed to have worst matchmaking possible. It's not a talk about “sweats”. It’s a talk about “high MMR” argument is being trash, and level of difficulty can be defined by time and region only. Killers might have high KR only because they matched with players level lower.
It also can be a part of reason that influence on queues. By my own experience — the longer killer queues I got was on new killers or when I firstly started to play. On executioner, for example, even during 1 vs 8 my 1 vs 4 matches were almost instant.
I don't want to use illegal methods to figure out my MMR. I tried to request JSON from BHVR to calculate it myself but support is so terrible I decided I don't need this. But after winter break maybe I’ll try ask them again, to compare my surv and killer MMR. As 50/50 player it should tell me a lot.
People randomly see abandones as escapes
I was tracking this too but stopped because the stat page updated halfway through my recording period and this aspect changed. Previously, if there were mutiple abandons, one would show with the escape symbol and the others with the DC symbol. When they updated it recently, they now all show as escapes. I actually caught a match like that during the update that I'd happened to screenshot prior.
Previously:
After the update:
This was a 4K. So all abandons now show as escapes.
-
@Blueberry said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4031438#Comment_4031438
I don't have the quote on me but Mandy had posted a little while back when we were critiquing how flawed the dbd website stats were, as you've mentioned, that this was only those stats, and that the kill rates they present to us are not subject to these flaws.
I'm not sure how we would realistically fix this though. Just as excluding them flaws the stats, including them does as well. The only real way would be like significantly increasing DC punishments and removing abandoning so that both scenarios happen significantly less to where they're less of a factor when included, and I doubt that's happening.
This is it:
This is pretty vague. No correlation doesn't tell us what they do or don't include.
You fix it by having abandons show as losses because they are, and you have everyone loose and gain MMR based on those wins and losses. I don't know how DCs show on the survivor end but my killer ones were losses, and that's correct. The abandon should be a skip animation option, not a get out of jail free card that's distributed every time a killer wins solely because someone died last.
The only reason I can see is that if BHVR goes back and adjusts the abandons to register properly, everyone is gonna see their numbers plummet and they'll be unhappy. But people need to see their real numbers.
-
@CrypticGirl said:
I've been tracking my matches on the Survivor side, but all my games have been 2v8 during the event, so idk if that would show us anything, so I may have to track some more.
I can say that when I had a match where the server disconnected, it didn't show up on the official stat tracker page at all.
I track my survivor matches loosely but I've never crunched the numbers. I assume mine are accurate though since I don't DC or abandon and my stats reflect that appropriate mediocrity.
I wonder about server DCs though. They showed up in my recents as killer as though they were 0-point DCs. I'll have to start paying attention. Same with ragequitting killers who DC before you can run out the gate. My understanding is those don't count as wins for the survivors, but I'm not actually sure.
-
@tes said:
I still don't get it. The statistics you showed are identical to the website's. So, the numbers for the killer are strictly representative, and the only thing that comes out is that the survivors are manipulating the MMR by abandoning and essentially continue playing against the same level of killers, against whom they are guaranteed to lose?
In this case, even if BHVR displays site statistics, in terms of killers it remains accurate, except for isolated miscalculations, but it seriously affects the MMR system, where players continue to remain at a level that does not belong to them.
This 17% didn't seemed to be lost. Only in aspect of MMR. So the only stuff this 5% people do is inflating their surv stats and breaking matchmaking.
What it equals out to is that personal killer stats are correct and don't care about opponents DCs or abandons, but survivor stats are inflated if the survivors use the abandon, and most seem to. I would assume killer stats could potentially be messed up with the abandon option as well, but who ever uses it as killer?
The only innaccuracy seems to be the server disconnects. The game should be able to see a game with 00:00 minutes where everyone had 0 points and just delete it, but it doesn't. Those counted like 4Es for me. The matches I DCed in also counted as 4Es, as they should, but I recall people saying they had a different outcome when DCing as survivor.
As for MMR, it would be nice to get more clarification. If we take this mod comment as it is, a survivor abandoning does indeed keep their MMR and the killer who killed them gains none. I imagine most survivors aren't doing it on purpose and aren't even thinking about their MMR. They just think it's a way to get to the lobby faster, which is all it should be but clearly isn't.
-
@Blueberry said:
Based on what they've said, the KR's would be under-reported on their official stat page we see as you're referencing, not on their internal stats or the ones they post to us every so often though. I'm not sure as far as Nightlight stats.
But they're not under-reported. They were perfect.
I would assume they have every possible variation of internal data and that doesn't do any of us much good.
DC matches also aren't included in the large-scale stats they show us.
This is old but was in regardds to overall KRs amongst all killers and theres nothing to indicate anything has changed, which means the only accurate numbers are the ones we don't get to see.
-
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030967#Comment_4030967
I wasn't able to find the old list. Though as I went looking through old threads I realized how frequently this concept has been discussed again and again over the years: also, how much I like to make lists. Anyway, it did basically give me the same ideas:
3: 4v1 - Usually being outnumbered means a huge disadvantage. There is a huge desire to say 'I beat 4 people!', so the backlash to 'actually, you had the easier side' is pretty huge. We see this in the '16 v 4' perk arguments as if those things are at all comparable.
4: Standards - People's view of the game and what the killer should expect have been wildly thrown out of whack. When people talk about the game being killer sides you'll get responses like 'oh, show me winning 20 games with a row with Trapper at high MMR!'. Except that just shows how absurd the standard has become because people are basing the 'killer is harder' on a standard heavily in their favor.
5: Burden shifting - We see some of this in the thread, basically saying all of the pressure should be on survivors. An example of this is Sadako with her high kill rate, people will point out, correctly, that this will change as survivors get better. What never gets discussed is what exactly has the new or low MMR Sadako shown to earn that KR? There's just a constant focus on what the survivors COULD do, without discussing what the Killer HASN'T had to do.
This is a possible way the game could be designed, but you're advocating that the Killer should have a heavy dose of hand holding, and that goes back to my earlier point of no one wanting to win a game that is tilted in their favor.
6: Misunderstanding variability - A single trial is not a huge sample size. If a survivors wins a bunch of 50/50s that looks like they are high skill and unbeatable, but it could easily be ascribed to the survivor just winning coin flips (or even outside 50/50s larger percentages).To take the coin flips, 1 out 8 games survivors will win 4 coin flips in a row and look amazing, 1 out of 8 games the killer will win 4 coin flips in a row and the survivors will look awful. But that's not showing the skill, that's just how probability works over many games.
7: No idea what they missed - If a killer runs by a survivor waiting with a flashlight, but doesn't see them, how would they ever know? Or what if the killer goes for a tunnel and gets gen rushed, they have no idea if they could have stopped it via spreading pressure. This is how when certain forum members post their videos it gets a lot 'those are low MMR survivors, mine are much harder'. But its impossible to know what could have been missed, or how seemingly minor tactical changes could have yielded large changes, and it causes lots of anger when others post matches being able to handle things.
8: Always play the same way - Many players employ the same tactics every game (i.e. tunnel). Thus it seems confusing as why survivors don't just run the counter to that strategy. Except, survivors have to predict multiple possible playstyles, but from the killer perspective they're wondering why survivors aren't just taking the 'strongest' builds.
This can be seen with how you have killers arguing the game is clearly survivor sided, while wildly disagreeing on what the broken build is (i.e. anti-tunnel, healing, gen rushing). An argument about what is broken on the survivor side frequently gives an indication to how the killer probably players (though there are objectively overpowered things on the survivor side just as there are on killer).
9: One sided framing - Trapper vs sweaty 4 person SWF is the common argument. Sure, unfair. So is a soloq without items hitting a sweaty Nurse, but that gets ignored.
Somehow killers have been able to maximize the 'if this goes through, only S tier killers will be played', while survivors have never managed 'if this goes through survivors will only run Iri addons and always play in a SWF', though both are equally possible (by which I mean basically will never happen).
10: Perfect - So in a hypothetical world, if the survivors played perfectly, they'd win. That's because many elements of the game are perfectly predictable. If you were a computer, when the killer begins to approach you'd know exactly whether or not which vaults/pallets you could make it to because the movement rates are predictable.
Except perfection is a horrible metric. I like to compare it to chess. There are people who are professional chess players (compared to what we call 'pros' in DbD) and do it their whole lives, there are many books written on chess strategy, and chess doesn't have the randomness of a game like DbD. Except, its been a long time since the world's best chess player could beat a computer (and we keep making better chess playing computers). Well, because people, even at the most extremes of human ability, always make mistakes. But some killers have latched onto this impossible reality as the standard for how we should discuss the game.
what exactly has the new or low MMR Sadako shown to earn that KR? There's just a constant focus on what the survivors COULD do, without discussing what the Killer HASN'T had to do.
It is funny how this is. Personally, when I hop on a killer for the first time, it's not uncommon for me to breeze through 20 wins in a row. That's about when the shift to better opponenets happens, and I end up with survivors who understand the killer far better than I do. So there's this gap in my learning where I now have to sweat and learn at the same time. It's easy to blame the killer's kit but it's really the erratic matchmaking and forced expectations.
This is a possible way the game could be designed, but you're advocating that the Killer should have a heavy dose of hand holding, and that goes back to my earlier point of no one wanting to win a game that is tilted in their favor.
I kinda think it's the other way around, that people can't bear to loose a match that's tilted in their favor. Killers are supposed to get kills and are designed to win more. So if you loose, it hits even harder, because you were already boosted from the get-go. On the flipside, as survivor, when I die to a killer I can see is clearly a bad player but perks, ping, bloodlust, and RNG did half the work, I resign myself to "well I'm designed to loose." In that way, I find survivor to be the sad role, and killer to be the stressful one.
I think that's where this "killer anxiety" silliness comes from. They're the main character and the focus is on them, and they're basically expected to win, so losing hits some too hard.
This is how when certain forum members post their videos it gets a lot 'those are low MMR survivors, mine are much harder'.
I hate how killer players say this, and how they all assume they themsleves are upper MMR and others are lower. You're only making each other feel inadequate, so the situation gets worse. There's also only so many people in upper MMR. You're not all there.
An argument about what is broken on the survivor side frequently gives an indication to how the killer probably players
I also feel this way. Who is telling people to bring Unbreakable, Soul Guard, or Conviction if they're not the problem thise perks address?
'if this goes through, only S tier killers will be played'
I'm always amazed hw much people say this. Does it really convince anyone? Beause you can just play for yourself and see it's not the case. I get wide variety in my matches. Even had a Twins the other day.
So in a hypothetical world, if the survivors played perfectly, they'd win.
I don't understand why this expectation is solely on survivors. I have matches where the survivors are great and I'm whiffing, getting whacked by pallets, getting juiced by people clipping into the walls perfectly, and just looking like an overall fool—then I win. Why did I not only have to play perfect againt good players, but I didn't even have to play well?
-
@I_CAME said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030907#Comment_4030907
They can do whatever they want and survivor mains will never melt down the way that killers do. The survivor player base is too casual and they know it. Killer mains treat the game like it's a job. Most survivor mains don't care how terrible the game is so long as they get a cute Sable cosmetic. I think the difference in how content creators operate really showcases this. Otz makes five hour videos about the game where he goes on rants about every aspect of game balance. Top survivor content creators are content to make videos about making the killer fall into a hole. It really shows how differently both sides view the game. Killer mains get to control the narrative because they are the only ones who even talk about it.
For sure. Survivors don't hit the fever pitch levels of intensity that killers do. The investment just isn't there. Even now the forum is having a tiny survivor outcry, but in a week we'll be back to posts about gen speeds, Skull Merchant, pallets, and tbagging at the gates.
Top survivor content creators are content to make videos about making the killer fall into a hole.
My personal dbd objective is to trick killers into falling down the hole on The Game so that's relatable af. When survivor isn't depressing, it's hilarious. Killer, not so much.
-
@Nicholas said:
You're right, look at the generator pistons. They were changed to coincide with other anti-tunnel and camp mechanics, but despite those being scrapped, they haven't reverted the piston change, which is a tremendous buff for Killers. It does seem like a lot of these changes are a precursor to justify more killer buffs that never seem to get reverted. One of the most significant pain points for survivors, even survivors that are unaware of it, is 'Favor The Killer.'
Yeah the glowing pistons have been great for me as killer. I've got a pretty good screen and can see a generator's progress from basically anywhere that LoS isn't blocked.
-
I'll just parrot what people tell survivors when they complain about tunneling and slugging:
- Adapt
- Bring perks
- Sounds like a skill issue
-
The first "anti tunneling" PTB resulting in nothing other than an anti tunneling perk nerf, then scrapping the whole thing soon after was a pretty big indicator to the community.
We got to keep visible hook states for killers and rings on the generators that let the killer see their progress from the other side of the map, both of which were clearly meant to be part of anti-tunnel but just became solo killer buffs instead. But hey, that's something that stayed!
-
Nah. Your optimism is nice but you can't show someone a banquet only to allow them a single grape. This is the saddest little consolation prize imaginable. There's no reason they couldn't have pushed one, single aspect like anti-slug or Elsuive to live and seen how it went with regular players.
-
What is this supposed to mean exactly?
Also, when did you register here? You have no posts but are complaining about alt accounts with a private profile.
-
It deletes the loss for your personal stats but, supposedly, not the offical ones. It shows on the killer's stats as an escape too, but it counts as a kill in their actual KR. It artifiically inflates your ER while not affecting the killer.
I never use it. I can't stand the idea of my stats being wrong. If I have to get humped for four minutes instead then so be it.
-
@crogers271 said:
Being @Nazzzak @cogsturning and @UnicornMedal have given their theories, I'll jump in on why we see such reactions. I used to have a list of ten reasons, but I'll narrow it down:
1: No one likes to win a game that was rigged in their favor. By design, the killer should kill more than the survivors escape. And even if you are really, really good, it still hurts knowing the designers have their thumb on the scales and it undermines the worth of winning. It's why you get arguments that act like comp is the only level that matters, butchering math, and things like Trapper vs 4 person sweaty SWF (while the memeing soloq vs sweaty Nurse is ignored). Simply, its a defense mechanism.
2: Killers have nowhere to go but down. I think this is what leads to the doom saying about changes even as BHVR says they'll keep to the 60% KR goal. If you're taking a lot of pride in long streaks and a huge win rate, and BHVR changes things and it plummets, but the overall KR stays relatively the same, it will make those earlier 'successes' look fake.
I want to hear the other eight.
-
No. I use BtL and have been griefed enough over it.
-
Oh thank God, another post about this. There can never be too many.
-
I am that one Guide in the lobby lol. It matches my playstyle. I like macro over micro and don't want to just whoosh away from chases. I want to get the pivotal gens done and signal to people where they are.
The blast mine has been just as good as the Sprint Burst honestly. I creep out of view when the terror radius gets medium loud and when I see the blast mine go off I use that time to leave.
-
@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030616#Comment_4030616
I get a ton of backlash for it every time, but I'm saying it again—it won't happen because as cocky as Survivors can absolutely get, their ego is nowhere near as big (in my opinion).
If you see how Killer mains behave when they congregate anywhere, they always feel incredibly victimized over the slightest things. I've seen people threaten to do drastic things to themselves over bagging at the gates. There is an unhinged desire for control. NOW let me say: if this does not apply to anyone reading, don't take it as such. I'm just saying, it's been my experience across multiple platforms.
How does someone with genuine concerns about game balance or someone experiencing burnout compete with that? I'm not entirely sure myself. BHVR has already started to set the precedent that they can replace Survivors with bots and other Killers via the interim queue (I'm just gonna call Play While You Wait that lol).
I can't even express a quarter of my view or I'd be banned lol but I think you and I are pretty aligned on our views on the mentalities of a certain flavor of killer main. I've seen some downright mental instability. The fact that something as goofy as tbagging actually makes many behave differently in-game blows my mind. The persistent victimhood is the most intriguing part, and it does make me wonder about people's real lives. I'm dying for a psyche study on this game's players.
And yeah, I don't know how you compete with it. My fire comes and goes in waves and sometimes I feel physically exhausted with this fight. But even though I play this game every day I don't attach my identity to it, as some people seem to.
-
@Nicholas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030776#Comment_4030776
I agree, but I'm not surprised because the devs are terrified of trying anything that doesn't benefit The Killer. They always revert it or go too far in the wrong direction. Boil Over change is a good example. All they had to do was either add Hooks to certain areas or reduce BO a bit, but instead they nerfed BO, added MORE Hooks, and added Hooks to new areas that never had them.
A similar thing happened with the hook states becoming visible to killers. They were clearly meant to be part of the anti-tunnel but still got released despite the revert, and they are absolutely a buff to killers as much as people brush them off. I bet you we see the same thing with pallets. They'll get reverted and the main building nerfs will stay. After awhile, it starts to feel like proposed survivor buffs are just a means to quietly sneak in killer buffs. And I say sneak because I think they'd have a much bigger problem on their hands if survivors became as universally enraged as killers.
-
@Nazzzak said:
As long as you keep buying cosmetics, nothing will change. That's the reality of it.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030616#Comment_4030616
I've always had a theory about that, and it comes down to what sort of personalities are drawn to what sort of role. I think introverts are more likely to drawn to the survivor role. They're generally more passive and reserved and don't like to make waves. When they don't like something, they leave quietly. Meanwhile, extroverts are likely more drawn to killer. They are naturally outspoken and don't care about making waves. When they don't like something, they have no qualms about speaking up.
There's obviously outliers and this is a generalisation. For example, I'd consider myself an introvert and I now prefer killer to survivor, but it's definitely a distinction I've noticed over the years.
I've noticed certain patterns and trends too. My overall view is close to yours. I find survivor mains are mellow and thoughtful but defintely more passive and easily beaten down, and killer mains are louder and more prone to quick emotional crash outs and inexplicable victimhood. But I think those are the extremes. The people with more even personalities seem to either play both or just not take the game so seriously. But, from what I've seen in the forum, I think a lot of killler mains are extreme introverts and the power role is a way to break free of that, and things that infringe on that fantasy hit them hard.
I can attest to your assessment though. I waffle back and forth between roles and currently don't know what I prefer, and I'm probably one of the most unapproachably quiet, cold, unfriendly introverts you could meet but will be loud as hell and say the most outrageous things once you know me. So both generalizations apply.
-
It's whatever. I'd rather have Elusive. I think it will help very specific end game escape scenarios.
-
@The_Count said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030797#Comment_4030797
Makes sense.
ANYTHING survs can stack to increase gen repair speed, but lately I'm so sick of it that even if just one surv brings one gen perk is enough to make me mad.
There's a significant amount of times that a gen just pops on my face for me to get to the result screen and see that the surv had Deja-vu.You don't think thats a wee bit extreme? Deja Vu save 5 seconds on a gen. So if a survivor with it does two whole gens alone they save a whopping ten seconds. Meanwhile, the average killer is bringing multiple anti-gen perks in almost all my survivor matches, so that 5 seconds isn't anything. Deja Vu's real power is in keeping yourself from getting 3genned.
-
Personally, my QoL is feeling rather poor right now.
-
@Dem34888 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030770#Comment_4030770
Gen rush can be accomplished without any skills (unless your reflexes are so bad you can't hit skill checks).
The funniest and most truthful observation is that I'd rename it to AFK check
While the killer is chasing one surv, three are sitting bored and pressing the space bar to keep from falling asleep completelyYou've quoted the wrong Wesker pfp.
-
@The_Count said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030777#Comment_4030777
Crap.
Posted without typing the rest.
Anyway, the first option. Tunnel and gen rush are equivalents. Both are braindead, easy strategies.
You can't destroy one without the other kicking the bucket too or else the side who loses their braindead crap first will be at a damn good disadvantage.Define genrushing then. How many gen perks do you need for a genrush build? Which perks? Which items with which add-ons? How many people need to bring them? Is every survivior clustering on the first gen they see genrushing? Or is spreading to different gens genrushing? Tell me your personal definition because, for such a commonly used term, everyone's is always different.
-
@The_Count said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4030770#Comment_4030770
I do.
We've reached a stalemate.You do what? Think they're equivalent or think nerfing gens will stop tunneling?