cogsturning
cogsturning
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057704#Comment_4057704
My point still stands, you saying your escape rate being low as evidence of SWF having comms makes no difference is debunked due to you possibly sacrificing yourself for your team. In doing this, your escape rate would drop but it's possible that your 3 other team mates could be escaping therefore the killer losing.
And I'm telling you that's not the case. I'm not the team punching bag. We are just losing, plain and simple. Will I trade? Yeah. But so will they, so the ERs will be similar if we all play similar.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057685#Comment_4057685
When you create your own win condition being that you consider it a win when you die and 3 others escape it sort of adds up why your escape rate would be lower. Pretty much implies that you can have low escape rate and still "win" if your team escapes meaning your likely to throw your own escape down the pan under the belief that you actually won. With this in mind I don't think quoting a low escape rate proves anything.
By that logic, we should be taking turns dying and all have higher ERs. We generally lose as a team, and not because of altruistic throwing, it's because the game is killler-sided, comms don't make you good, and varying MMRs in a party make for bad matchmaking.
Pretty much implies that you can have low escape rate and still "win" if your team escapes meaning your likely to throw your own escape down the pan under the belief that you actually won.
Starting to feel like a broken record here, but I don't think about winning that much. If I trade or die for friends it's because they're friends, not because I care about the idea of it being a perceived win.
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@Skeleton23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057673#Comment_4057673
Oh i see what's happening. I ment 100% Agree with his post. My phone probably auto Corrected it out. Its been being that
Ah, understood.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057672#Comment_4057672
It does show your double standards when you say it's not fun for players (being tunneled) then when people say it's not fun for players (being tagged at the gate) your attitude is very different... It becomes "I don't understand why they are bothered". Why is irrelevant, your understanding is irrelevant, facts remain, people don't like it and you seem sympathetic towards one issue but not the other. From someone that claims they have empathy, your not showing any by saying you don't understand why people are bothered.
What you are doing is basically saying "let's play chess but we can never move the king" then expecting others to willingly go along with these made up rules. You can rasionalise it all you want but you are still making up self-made rule's. If you don't understand this, there is no hope going further trying to explain what playing the game properly actually means.
It's not that I don't understand why they're bothered, it's that I don't understand why they take their anger out on strangers that didn't do the thing they're mad about. I'm suppsed to be empathetic when you randomly lash out at people? If you're 14, sure, I can understad that hormonal instabliby, but I don't think anyone complaining about tbagging in this forum is 14. The team that tbagged you last round isn't the one you're playing against next round. Also, it's not a double standard if the things are, again, not equivalent. The killer gets tbagged at that gates when they got to play a whole round. The tunneled survivor (and probably their team) have the whole match ruined.
We have these things in society called "morals". They exist independently of laws and, though personal, are generally relatable across a culture or cultures. It's why you see common threads in complaints about this game.
I suppose you don't understand it because you self isolate and haven't had to hear the burnout and frustration in the voices of a lot of cool and wholesome people. I've had a lot of friends walk away because of tunneling. I've yet to have any walk away because of tbagging though.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057677#Comment_4057677
Most swfs end up with a lower escape rate than they realistically should because they tend to be super altruistic.
@topic That assumes people would use the in game comms. Which the majority wouldn't.
The point still stands. I'm not doing much destroying. The comms have yet to de-potato me.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057655#Comment_4057655
Both of those are generally considered "reasonable reasons to leave someone on the ground for a short period" while you go chase the other person.It's like the old 'here's all the reasons tunneling should be addressed when a killer goes from it for the very beginning'.
That usually gets immediate response of 'but what if the survivors run in front of me' which doesn't address the issue at all.
People love their red herrings.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057656#Comment_4057656
Something existing and something being part of a design aren't the same thing. If anything, the game has adjusted to tunneling because it has to, because tunneling is skewing the numbers and likely keeping low tier killers in the dumps to maintain the 60%I think its kind of like infinites. At one point they weren't a huge issue ('infinites take skill'), then more and more players took advantage of an easily abusable mechanic, and eventually, probably long after they should have, BHVR addressed it.
Yeah, I agree. Infinites were in the game but not neccessarily intended. And they were addressed, at least. How much does tunneling need to be abused to get that same treatment? How many years does it take?
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SWFs which is co-oridnated and can destroy killers easily
My 41% ER playing mostly SWF says otherwise.
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@Skeleton23 said:
I 100% most of my matches im made to tunnel, Slug and camp because of what survivors do. Sabo Squads make me slug, Gen Rushing makes me Tunnel and when they sworm the hook im forced to camp
Wow 100% in most of your matches? You have stats to back up the claim of being one of the games top players, yes?
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057656#Comment_4057656
except the point was that you didnt understand why a killer is bothered by somthing you see no issue with….i think bringing up something a survivor as yourself would be bothered by something i am not. There is a similarity there, your lack of understanding doesnt change the fact that survivors know their actions bother other people yet they still do it. Like i said you dont need to understand it, you just need to know it effects others negatively….if you choose to not care about that then fair enough just say so.
The fact you admit the game has adjusted to tunneling clearly shows its part of the game design, have to or not its part of the design and they worked around it. They done the PTB to try and reduce the effectiveness instead of pushing survivors to actually learn how to loop, to teach them to stop unhooking too soon in the killers face. Once upon a time killers had no bloodlust and no entity blocker to prevent loops. introducing these anti loop measures means looping is not part of the design because they tried to nerf it? They are all part of the design.
As i have said many times, they are your rules. YOU made them up. Others may have come up with similar rules (and they have) but it doesnt change the fact that you as a player like all the other players that make up their own rules have in fact made them up. BHVR makes the rules, not you, not the players. Every time you make up a rule that is not backed by the devs it is your rule you have made up. "dont tunnel, play properly, leave me alone to do gens" "dont gen rush, do a few gens then wait for me to get a kill" These are self made rules. Like i said, you can play by whatever rules you want to invent but clearly others often wont play your way, thats why playing properly according you is a non argument when they are playing properly according to the rules BHVR sets out.
i think bringing up something a survivor as yourself would be bothered by something i am not.
Of course you're not bothered by ratting, you're the one doing it hahahahaha. I'm sure tunnelers are perfectly happy with their own tunneling. Using something you do that you know is considered bad form as an example of something that doesnt bother you is truly a peak moment. Which circles us back to this "I'm forced to tunnel" crap which you know quite well is bs. You do it because you want to, not because you have to. You do it because someone tbagged you at the gates once or said mean things in the chat, because you have no empathy and don't care about other people's experiences. You've said all these things before. That's exactly why tunneling is often toxic—it's used as pre-retribition against random strangers for past tilt formed from a poor ability to manage emotions in a video game. That's exactly what you're saying here:
survivors know their actions bother other people yet they still do it
"Some people act bad so I will treat everyone poorly too."
They done the PTB to try and reduce the effectiveness instead of pushing survivors to actually learn how to loop, to teach them to stop unhooking too soon in the killers face.
Why are we using baby player actions like unhooking in the killer's face as a basis of discussion?
"dont tunnel, play properly, leave me alone to do gens" "dont gen rush, do a few gens then wait for me to get a kill"
There is a huge difference between "leave me alone to do gens" (which no one has ever said in seriousness) and "please don't shove me out of the match with 5k points and ruin it for the other three survivors." The gen rush = tunneling comparsion doesn't hold water, as much as everyone so desperately tries to make them equal. Simply doing gens with no gen perks and taking the full 90s because the killer overcommitted isn't gen rushing. You're supposed to keep them off the gens and busy. This is what I mean by not learning the game.
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Who needs an MMR rework? Everyone knows the system is perfect...
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057637#Comment_4057637
lol interesting that you disregard something when it goes against your argument. The stealth comment is directly relating to your not understanding how someone can find something unfun.
I have seen survivors with over 3k hours and they have performed far worse than survivors with 500 hours that have been able to loop the killer for a long time, have they raised their MMR to where it shouldnt be too? Maybe the killer is using a different account, they could have more hours than everyone but the hours shown would say only few hundred. You should know hours do not equate to skill so its very much possible for a killer with low hours to be just as good as a survivor with a lot of hours and vice versa.
At the time i went many many matches of getting at best 1 or 2k so pretty much every match i either lost or got a draw at best. 3k or higher was very rare for a few months. Then i started tunneling and things evened out, i win some i lose some which is how the game should be. It should not be intentionally lower MMR by under performing, taking loss after loss after loss to then maybe, eventually get balance back.
The game is clearly designed around tunneling or it would be made reportable like griefing is, it would be hard nerfed and stopped dead. The game is designed around many different aspects, looping, tunneling, proxy camping, slugging, perk use, map layout, spawn points.
You are once again making assumptions based on nothing….tunneling is situational so its about knowing when to drop chase, knowing when to tunnel, who to tunnel. Just so happens many situations (usually caused by survivors) is better to tunnel than not to tunnel. Claiming a tunneler has developed no game sense, no map awareness ect is utter nonsense. They could have learnt all that prior to tunneling but still struggle to gain kills without tunneling. It sounds like those people that lose and then "git gud"….i dont think the winner needs to, the loser should "git gud" because they lost.
Iv seen it all, survivors saying things like "you only won because of tunneling" or You only won because you had a good map" or "you only won because of your perks". Then killers say "you only won because you gen rushed" or "you only won because you pre run" or "you only won because you body blocked". These are all poor excuses people come out with to justify a loss while not taking responsibility for their own actions, decisions and skill. These are part of the game, part of the design. Until that design changes, thats how it is so telling someone they are not playing properly by playing a certain way (your way) is not correct at all. You really should stop with that argument because your made up rules have no say in what is playing properly and what isnt.
lol interesting that you disregard something when it goes against your argument.
I'm disregarding it because you love bringing up stuff that has nothing to do with the topic. "Don't like getting tunneled? Well, I don't like it when survivors wear red. Guess we all have to deal with these torally equal things that absolutely align though." You constantly compare anything that exists in the game to any other random thing in the game when they're not at all equivalent or even related.
Maybe the killer is using a different account, they could have more hours than everyone but the hours shown would say only few hundred
I am a cross progression player so I understand it perfectly well. I'm taking about obvious cases, like a killer who whiffs constantly, misses their M2s, can't mind game, doesn't know what gens to patrol, but still brainlessly tunnels because some YTer told them to. You're also assuming the bad 3k hour player is playing what they main. They could be playing killer with 200 hours while the other 2.8k is in survivor.
The game is clearly designed around tunneling or it would be made reportable like griefing is, it would be hard nerfed and stopped dead
Something existing and something being part of a design aren't the same thing. If anything, the game has adjusted to tunneling because it has to, because tunneling is skewing the numbers and likely keeping low tier killers in the dumps to maintain the 60%. If everyone stopped tunneling and BHVR saw the real numbers, instead of them being obscured by cheese, they could get to the real issues.
But no, I'm sure they put all that work into those ptbs just for funsies. Let's just pretend they didn't actively try to stop tunneling but chickened out in the end. That never happened, since it doesn't fit your by-design narrative.
You only won because you had a good map" or "you only won because of your perks"
It's true though. I win a good deal of my killer matches because of these things. The game gives one side or the other stuff for free, or it's luck, with what perks you chose versus you're opponenet, or it's putting on Lightborn because you saw three flashlights in the lobby. Much of this game is chance-based amongst average players.
These are all poor excuses people come out with to justify a loss while not taking responsibility for their own actions, decisions and skill.
Yeah, taking responsibility for your actions instead of blaming teammates and opponenets is certainly a popular take in the community, present company included.
You really should stop with that argument because your made up rules have no say in what is playing properly and what isnt.
I really do love how you keep saying this as if you and I are the only people in the forum and there isn't a steady stream of posters saying the exact same things, very often to you. There's been a million arguments about this same stuff for years but no, they're my rules.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057613#Comment_4057613
BHVR will listen… Any day now… Yup… Any day now… ☠️⏳️
If I keep smashing my head againt this brick wall it will be the wall that breaks, I know it.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057612#Comment_4057612
you dont have to understand it, all you need to know is that it bothers people….do people still still do it knowing it bothers others? yes. I dont understand how someone can be so bothered by stealth play but each to their own.
The killers that complained about the pallet increase often mentioned pallet stuns, M1 killers in particular say about pallet stuns. But like you said if these are things that bother people then maybe they shouldnt play at all….like if a killer complains about being looped….or survivors complain about being tunneled. All part of the game, dont like it? dont play as far as im concerned. Alternatively, find your own solution but complaining about what the core game is? nah. suck it up buttercup, tbag, tunnel, loop, camp, stun, gen rush….all part of the game.
We have already been over this "grown MMR by tunneling" nonsense. Killers like myself didnt tunnel at all. It was only after losing match after match i started to tunnel. Now how can tunneling inflate my MMR beyond what it should be if i didnt tunnel to begin with?
You telling a killer to intentionally refuse to use the tools and tactics available to them so they can learn to play "properly" is no different to saying survivors that rely on certain perks or SWF or whatever they need to rely on to win. "dont use sprint burst, take the loss and get your MMR down to a level that you can win without it and play properly. Maybe go perkless with no items for a while to learn to play the game properly. Fact is like it or not, tunneling remains a legitimate tactic and is not reportable, not griefing, not cheating, so if you tell killers they are not playing the game properly by tunneling then you have massively misunderstood what the game is and what playing properly is.
I dont understand how someone can be so bothered by stealth play but each to their own.
No one is talking about this. Try to stay on track.
We have already been over this "grown MMR by tunneling" nonsense.
I sometimes get killers with a couple hundred hours and they immediately go for the hard tunnel. Sometimes it works for them, mostly it doesn't, but they're clearly boosted by cheese if they're oppoenents have 10x+ the hours of them.
It was only after losing match after match i started to tunnel.
And how many matches was that? Because I can manage about 5 losses before the game gives me the pity present of Team Potato who I 4k at 5gens. The survivors I get are usually better players than me and I almost never have a long streak of losses.
But like you said if these are things that bother people then maybe they shouldnt play at all….like if a killer complains about being looped….or survivors complain about being tunneled.
The maps have been designed around looping. It's what you're supposed to do with tiles. You're meant ro try to outplay one another in a setting designed for it. The game wasn't designed around tunneling. It's just something that's gotten worse and worse over the years. There'd be no basekit BT if survivors were meant to be tunneled. There wouldn't have been multiple ptbs trying to address. It doesn't make sense to design a system that's basically an autoloss for a team at what could be the first 2 minutes of a match.
Maybe go perkless with no items for a while to learn to play the game properly
You really don't understand comparsions at all. This would be the equivalent of a killer also going perkless and add-on-less, which some do because the game is already killer-sided.
so if you tell killers they are not playing the game properly by tunneling then you have massively misunderstood what the game is and what playing properly is.
If tunneling is the one and only way you know how to win then you do not understand the overall game. You've developed zero gamesense, zero map awareness, zero perditiction ability, zero control. You are are acting like a brainless bot.
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If It's 4 charges but they're now totally see-through on all maps instead of most, I'll still pass. But if they're actually mostly opaque I might shake up my build and methods.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057529#Comment_4057529
Most people have formulated their reasons at least a dozen times, since this topic is an evergreen here and crops up two to three times a month. Everything's been said about it already. People who come barging in, stomping their foot down and claiming their conclusion are just fishing for validation, and if they can't get that, endless arguments that go nowhere.
Someone says tunnelling is needed, someone else says it's not, people do wonky math, there's a whole lot of 'If you hold [opinion] you're clearly low mmr', people bicker over killrates/winrates, 'that's not what average means', patch notes get dredged up, 'you're just a surv main', 'valid tactic', 'it's anti-FACEcamp', 'but whatabout second chance perks', etc. etc. etc.
Nothing that's said here ever makes a difference. Most we can do is click the little button that tells BHVR someone disagrees. Everything else they either already know, or if they haven't figured it out yet, they never will.
You mean you don't like having the same tired argument weekly?
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057590#Comment_4057590
not everyone but a lot are….i would say majority based on how many killers tunnel and genuinely dont care if others have fun or not, the amount of survivors that tbag the killer at the gates knowing the killer wont have fun hitting them out or when killers get repeatedly hit in the face with pallet after pallet….not many killers are thinking "yay this is fun" but do people care? no, because they are playing for their own fun not the killers fun.
You might not have to tunnel to win but you are not everyone. some might have to tunnel to win. someone losing match after match without tunneling….you going to say "you dont have to tunnel to win"? Maybe they do, you cant say they dont if they end up losing when they dont tunnel but win when they do. Like me saying you dont have to loop, i dont, maybe you do?
I will never understand this tbagging excuse. I can't imagine a grown adult being mad enough about rapid squats being done by a cartoony dude in leopard speedo to change how they act. It's so goofy. This is a personal attitude problem and you're taking it out on random people who've done nothing to you. And who is mad about pallet stuns? If these are genuinely bothering people they probably shouldn't be playing at all.
The game is killer-sided. I suck and I still win against players who are better survivors than I am. If you're losing all your matches, like dozens of them in a row, then you probably grew your MMR too fast by tunneling and not learning proper pressure and map control while you were in the lower ranks. Lose and fall back down to be where you belong and learn the game properly.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057575#Comment_4057575
But when the choice is make 4 people unhappy by tunneling or make yourself unhappy by getting tbagged and lose then is it really a choice? Maybe "no choice" isnt the right word, maybe "no brainer" is a better way to put it because its pretty much a no brainer….option A being to tunnel and happy while potentially making 4 others unhappy or option B being to not tunnel make 4 others happy and make yourself unhappy. I dont think many people are thinking "im going to play dbd to entertain others and provide enjoyment at the expense of my own" they are playing for their own entertainment and enjoyment and if they dont enjoy losing and the only way they can win is to tunnel then it can be seen that they dont have a choice if they want to enjoy the game, they do actually have to tunnel to get enjoyment out of it.
Not everyone is selfish.
Not everyone gains happiness solely from winning.
You do not have to tunnel to win.
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@ritualpirate01 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057537#Comment_4057537
There isn't a choice in a sense that you can do it, but do you want to do it? Everyone can have the choice of not tunneling just like he said in identity v you have to get 1 survivor to the chair and get him out of there fast or you lose. I have played identity v longer than I did dbd and it's far more acceptable there for a hunter to tunnel and camp the chair. Deciphering is just like generators. Survivors know what they are doing like they do in dbd so it's always the best option to get 1 survivor out asap.
But if you don't want to tunnel then you have to accept that you'll never going to win only if you enjoy or don't care about losing though lol but sadly I don't have such kink.
I don't know why everyone is so obsessed with what happens in other games. Games have their own isolated cultures and communities. We are talking about dbd here.
You can not tunnel and still win. I play both with friends and against randoms who don't do it. I don't do, and I still stay above the 60% goal.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4057537#Comment_4057537
seems a little bit pernickety to me. Do people have to word things like its legal document? "killers often feel they have no choice but to tunnel as when they do not tunnel they are frequently met with a loss followed by end game celebration of the opponent."
Yes there is a choice and not all killers lose when they dont tunnel, however to simply downvote based on the wording "no choice" instead of saying something like "if i want to win i dont have much choice but to tunnel because if i dont tunnel then i dont win"
That being said, we dont even know if this is the reason for the downvotes as the downvoters are suspiciously silent and rarely explain the reason behind the downvote. It would be nice if they explained themselves.
It's not just that the wording is inaccurate, it's the classic "I'm the real victim because I have to tunnel 😢😢😢" implication. Meanwhile, you're making four other people unhappy with your choice. And that's what it is, it's 100% a choice. It's offensive to do something that is known to be disliked and then act like your hands were tied.
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It's probably the "no choice" that's getting you the downvotes. You always have a choice. Plenty of people don't tunnel.
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@ImWinston said:
- I'm in for a rough ride... I hate Trickster, and obviously everyone will want to try him. Along with Twins, he's the least fun killer for me to deal with.😓
Yeah same, he is my most disliked killer. I might just play killer for a month lol
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Whenever a character gets a flashy new cosmetic, particularly if it's in the Rift or unlockable from an event, I see an uptick in that character being used. New cosmetics are an incentive if you don't hard main someone.
Also, one of the reasons I picked my main survivor was the plethora of cosmetics I liked. There are characters I like but I hate their cosmetics, so I dont play them. Its always good to have a variety available.
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The zombies are unbearable. When you're down to one gen left it's almost impossible with two killers and 4 zombies all near the remaining gens.
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@Roco45 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4056718#Comment_4056718
Okay lol The same people are on here crying about the game balance and why it never gets better. There's really no truth to any of your rebuttals, just an immense lack of critical thinking.
You blanketing SWF as the root of all the game's problems is not critical thinking.
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@Roco45 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055505#Comment_4055505
That doesn't matter because Surv perks and Killers are nerfed all the time because at their peak performance they are broken. The attempted counter argument that SWF shouldn't receive nerfs because not all SWFs play super serious doesn't matter, the coordination is something this game wasn't built upon and one of the core reasons the game is entirely unbalanced.
I don't need you to say it again, I'd actually prefer you don't say anything at all if what you do say is of such low quality. I honestly couldn't care less for stats that don't factor in afks or even DC's when the majority of my SoloQ matches have DCs in them; that in of itself glaringly tells me that my matches aren't even contributing to whatever bull stats you wanna bring up.
I get that the shilling for SWF will continue no matter what, but can we get some originality with the rebuttals at least? Instead of the same washed responses?
I get that the shilling for SWF will continue no matter what, but can we get some originality with the rebuttals at least? Instead of the same washed responses?
Perhaps different people saying the same things to you over and over and over mean there's truth to them.
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I'm not sure how Nightfall would go on such a big map and with another killer, and the locker spawn needs work (as it does in 1v4 too), but Dredge would be a lot of fun if they could make it happen.
Idk why they haven't done Clown. He seems easy enough to implement.
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@Xaerdy said:
I am fairly new, but Dracula and the Doctor.
I have a lower kill rate stat wise with The Dark Lord, but that is misleading, as I use him much more often than any other killer.
But both are fun. Dracula is simply strong and versatile. And with the Doc I just have fun in making everyone scream, even if I don't get (all of) the survivors.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055463#Comment_4055463
I was thinking of learning to play Dredge some day, I just like the aesthetic. Any tips ;-)?
Aura read goes hard on Dredge. The Lavalier Microphone add-on is a must for me. Three quick teleports and you have an almost undodgable read on everyone.
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@MythicalTwinkie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4056424#Comment_4056424
Of course my suggestions are all Killer buffs, Survivors don't need any other than double tap prevention.
And body blocking doesn't work for a short duration after being hit since Survivors don't have collisions with other Survivors and the Killers when getting hit.
This would actually prevent body blocking so the Killers cannot get an easy 2 tap on the Survivor.
Also, if you get hit again by the other Killer after those 2 seconds. Then chances are you tried to run directly past the other Killer instead of using those 2 seconds and the sprint boost to reposition and that's 100%, your own fault.
Obviously more would have to be done to make chases with 2 Killers more enjoyable. But when making the post, endurance on hit was the only thing I could think of at the moment.
Again, what makes survivors want to play this? Clearly, killers already want to because the queues are disgusting. You have a mode with horrible matchmaking so you can't blame upper MMR, and there's a lack of the OP SWF boogeyman, and it's still not enough. The good killers are winning in my matches.
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I wish they'd actually make them a part of the game in some way and not just tome challenges. The magic elements of dbd are something I really like and want more of.
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I have a 50% ER so far for this iteration. My 30-day in 1v4 is usually about the same. The matchmaking in 2v8 is abysmal. I had a match with a Sable who just crept around edgemap and went in and out of lockers collecting crows. When you land a few bad teammates like that you're trapped in an even bigger disaster than normal. I'm often the last to die and the highest on the scoreboard because my teammates are so incredibly bad that even a mediocre player like me is the best in the match.
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So all buffs to killer except that the double-teamers have to count to two when they body block you. What about these ideas makes survivors want to play in a mode where matchmaking is already seemingly nonexistent and you have a huge change of landing 100-hour potatoes/rats as teammates? There has to be some incentive to get so many people to play survivor.
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He is, by far, my most disliked killer in the mode. I'll take a team of Blight and Nurse over an Oni any day.
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@tjt85 said:
I don't know why but my ping on the Survivor side is mostly fine, yet whenever I play a Killer game it's spotty at best. Sometimes it will be totally fine but then suddenly I'll be at 500ms ping and everyone is teleporting around the map.
The frustration is just the same for Killers as it is for Survivors and it makes me want to avoid playing Killer altogether. Maybe I'm getting sent to some far flung Server for my Killer games, I don't know… but I swear it was never this bad last time around.
I have a theory it's maybe to do with Nemi's extra zombies but I can't be sure it's just that.
Glad I'm not the only one with the crazy ping spikes..
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First, the number of Bloodpoint farming events we've had in succession means that the Bloodweb economy is out of whack: most Survivors have no reason not to bring the strongest items possible.
This hasn't been my experience at all, playing with a p100. In what I suppose is an effort to force you to diversify, the bloodweb stops giving you what you want. I have to buy 20+ levels in the bloodweb just to get the one add-on I really want. For several month now I've had to have friends bring me the item with my desired add-ons and trade them out in-game. I even have two builds, one for solo and one for SWF, because I can't get enough of what I want for all my matches. Even banking points on 2v8 isn't enough to keep up, and it's now giving me less of the stuff for the second build. It's pretty much all fog vial, map, and key add-ons. Same goes for my killers. It seems to quickly figure out what you want and not give it to you. I pretty much have to prestige just to play two or three rounds with my preferred add-ons as killer.
This frees up that item slot for the aforementioned toolboxes,
This is exactly what everyone said would happen in regards to both fog vial and medkit nerfs, and so here we are.
Built to Last and Streetwise got small but significant changes that made them much more efficient
I was a devoted Streetwise user until the rework. I don't know who is still using this perk anymore. I never see it. This is another one I think bit back though. I switched Streetwise out for Lithe and have done much better with that. Nerfing gen perks just leads to people choosing chase perks instead.
The best option to stop quick gen losses, especially if you see toolboxes in the pregame menu, is to try and tunnel out a Survivor early so they can't use their items to burn through your loss condition
I run Weave/Franklin's often. I see toolboxes sitting beside survivor auras like 30s into the match. They use them immediately for this very reason, so tunneling is only so helpful there. Also, if just the sight of toolboxes tilts you that hard before the match even starts, dodge.
If you find the first one as Killer at the beginning of the trial, you're in luck, because they probably don't have any chase or information perks aside from Deja Vu, and it's a coin toss whether they just give up or go AFK as soon as you approach them because they didn't get to do their full setup to clear a generator as fast as possible.
You're describing me in this whole post, a survivor who brings a Commodious, Deja Vu, and BtL, and I defeintley don't AFK or give up, nor do I really see this happening in my killer matches. I also never really see these sneaky Stakeout/Hyperfocus/Bardic players. It's almost almost chase/second chance builds.
This dichotomy might be why my Killer games are either 0k or 3/4k and almost never anything in the middle. But I guess that works out at around 60% so BHVR's happy. Conversely, my Survivor games also hit the 40-50% escape rate bracket, and this is for the same reason
This is true, and i hate it. Almost all my killer matches are stomp or be stomped. I'm either getting a 0k or a 1k, or a 4k, when what I really want and feel is a fair, balanced, well-played match is a 2k or a 3k.
What I don't like about this entire narrative—and it's a very popular one—is that it's basically the survivor playerbases fault for being tunneled because they're too fast on gens. The simple fact is that if the killer is preemptively choosing to tunnel without knowing what that particular survivor is doing or what build they have, it's on them. They're making that choice. My gen build was a direct response to being tunneled. I see way, way more hard tunneling in my survivor matches than I see gen builds in my killer matches.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055943#Comment_4055943
This was when they changed from ranks to MMR. MMR gains/loss remains the same. i agree hatch is not a win according to MMR but neither is it a win for you when you die and 3 of your team mates escape, thats my point which you seem to ignore. You might feel its a win for the team and for the 3 that escaped yes it is, but its a loss for you. You might not feel like its a win when you escape but 3 others die but MMR says its a win. If you are considering it a win when you die and 3 others escape when MMR says you lose then why cant i consider hatch escape a win when MMR says its a draw? atleast hatch maintains MMR so will never drop but a survivor that dies when 3 others escape will drop in MMR.
Any wonder why i open the gates and walk out leaving everyone else behind when MMR says i will win if i do this? Why wouldnt i escape when im able to?
I agree hatch should be removed, i have thought that for years while i was maining killer. would save me slugging for 4k and save me the hassle of looking for 2 players hiding for the hatch. I agree abandons should count as losses, i have said this from day 1 of abandons being added. No abandon should ever count as win or null. When we dont consider them losses we get people abusing it like what killers did when they first discovered they could abandon after 10min of protecting gens which gave the win. We also have survivors abandoning to avoid a loss….if its an option people will take it and right now it is an option.
I would like to add, hatch escapes is not just what i hang on to when playing survivor. recently i have been practicing with opening the gates after hatch is closed, im not doing too bad, i could probably do better if i had sole survivor and gate escapes are a win according to MMR, not a draw.
MMR isn't a measurement of winning, what? I couldn't care less what happens with my MMR. If all survivors DC or abandon the killer still gets a 4k but zero MMR growth. It's just a matchmaking metric, and a damn crappy one.
I didn't say I want hatch gone, I said I want hatch escapes removed from the stat ER count, though I would like the pity prize of hatch changed in some way as well.
You're assuming that everyone who uses the abandon is doing so because of their numbers. The average casual player probably never even checks the stat page or pays attention to MMR information. Thry use it as a skip-to-scoreboard option. And again, I don't know what you gain from fake stats. The ability to lie to yourself about how well you're doing?
It's crazy to me you even think about being the last one left so much. You like to talk about how you're teammates are so very useless but if it's that common for that to happen in your matches when do you realize that you might be the problem?
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055907#Comment_4055907
https://youtu.be/Pz7f_WPutq8?si=34aTHjb2WCqzh8In
This is a from 4 years ago i think. Look at 25min into it and it clearly explains what a "win" is. to sum it up:
- Win for survivor is escape via gate
- hatch is null so not win or loss
- killer is essentially playing 4 different 1 v 1's so if they kill 1 survivor they won v that survivor.
- MMR loss it at its most for the first survivor out, by the time it gets to last man downed the MMR loss is greatly reduced.
Based on these facts, my playstyle is matches the way the game is scored with MMR. i do what i can to escape regardless who i leave behind, my MMR will go up due to winning the 1 v 1 v killer.
You can say you dont feel like you won if you escape when your team dies and thats fine if you want to feel that way. However you have put your own win/loss condition regarding this. In the same regard i do feel like i won when i escape via hatch and my team dies. It might be null but its my own win condition i have set. If you are going to impose your own win/loss conditions then so can i.
As for pain points brought on themselves, yes to pretty much all of what you mentioned. Like i said i dont have an issue with any of what you mentioned. Why? how? Because of the way i play and my mindset. They are no longer pain points for me. Others have the choice to play like me and avoid getting into these situations. Its a choice.
As for me abandoning, i dont abandon much because i opt for the hatch instead as i consider hatch a win. if i know i cant get the hatch then yes i abandon….better to walk away with a void match instead of a loss. With this in mind, even if it was changed to a team based scoring system i would still consider it a win if i alone escape because i refuse to let other people drag me down with them when they cant last 5sec in chase, cant stealth and dont touch gens. Im sure if i was on your team you wouldnt want me dragging you down with my style of play? same rules apply, you want to win as a team? you have to lose as a team too which will happen alot in soloq. The only way this team based scoring wouldnt cause many losses would be for SWF. Soloq would be loss after loss.
Just to clarify its not really the number im more fixated on over the actual experience of other human beings….its MY experience i put over the experience of other human beings. MY fun, MY enjoyment. am i going to ask the killer not to hook me because i dont find it fun on the hook? no. Am i going to ask survivors to play as a team? no. Am i going to ask survivors to not loop the shack because i dont find it fun as killer? no. i take ownership of my own fun and do everything in my power to make damn sure no one effects my experience (to the best of my ability because i cant do much v hackers) so others can play however they want.
This is before the entire system was changed but okay, hatch is not a win. Interesting that you do abandon (and specifically to remove an earned loss) yet you're quick to drop you're inflated stats to show everyone how great you can do in solo. What's the point of that, exactly, when you know its rigged? They should remove hatch escapes from the stats and count abandons as deaths. Then we'll have some proper numbers and everyone can see they're ERs are like 35%. You act like you wouldn't care but something tells me you would.
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@Ryuhi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055907#Comment_4055907
I think the lack of either a clear or personal wincon is a big cause of discordance in discussion with a lot of aspects of the game, and the confusion feels almost by design at times. They want to remove as much frustration as possible from the feedback of game results, yet use them as the sole determining factor of everything every single player has or hasn't accomplished in the entire trial.
The emblem system used to be tailored to addressing these goals, allowing players to easily create personal wincons that focused on as much or as little of their personal input into a given match, with flaws in how said metrics could be impacted by other players (I.E. if everyone rushes the hook to get their altruism up, there was not enough to go around and it could actually cost matches due to poor prioritization.) The idea was designed around rating players individual input into as many core tenants of the expectations of their participation as possible, with obvious limitations imposed by either other players or opponents (a survivor who gets permatunneled can live long enough to escape, but still only ever get emblems in boldness.) Not a perfect system, but it felt more focused on giving players a more fair metric to gauge their abilities rather than strictly outcome bias.
Deprioritizing that to the point of just being a monthly BP bonus removed the drive for players to engage with as many aspects of the game, and instead maximize their focus on the outcome. Its why metas keep getting more solved, players get more sweaty, unhealthy strategies get more prioritized and leniency/versatility less prioritized. Pair that with bad matchmaking, backfill completely destroying matchmaking quality, and player ego (in the sense of the importance of feedback to the player, not strictly in the "I'm the best" mindset) and you end up with everyone at each other's throats more than ever. The negative outcomes tend to weigh heavier than the positive ones for a lot of people because their entire feedback structure for their impact on a given match has been boiled down to "but did you win?" If the answer is no, they see no value and want to leave immediately for another chance, like a gambling addict on a slot machine getting their next quarter before the slots even stop.
I honestly believe that if MMR was never adopted in the form it has been, people would be less adamant about being able to quit matches early. I have no way of knowing what other impacts it would have for the game (for better or worse,) but it feels like its been long enough to be able to make that type of correlation. The degree it has impacted player satisfaction in a given match is hard to ignore, and trends in behavior in other games over time and across genres makes it a pretty interesting topic to reflect on with this one.
Between the low-effort abandon option, the wonky matchmaking, and the unclear wincons, I do feel like the tone has gotten steadily worse. I really wish they'd dig their heels in and lay things out plainly instead of convoluting them further. The question on the survey about what you consider a win as survivor has got me very curious about the MMR rework and what they might have in-store.
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@UnicornMedal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055818#Comment_4055818
Here, let me write a long-winded essay on a thread that will fall off the front page within a week about all of the problems with the game we're all very aware of stemming back to 2016, only to get into a circular argument with people who already have their minds made up just to have the devs ignore all of it anyway. 🤩
Hey that's my wheelhouse!
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@SoloQIsHell said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055744#Comment_4055744
According to bhvr, it's not a bug. This was said because survivors shared their feedback on the pallet density subsection. Especially these maps were an issue so this is their solution to the problem.
Source: trust me, bro.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055876#Comment_4055876
i actually have clear proof of what a "win" is but first, to clarify you are saying if 3 players die and 1 walks out the gate then the team lost, killer won? even if that 1 survivor escaped via the gate, they still lose?
survivor pain points are brought on by themselves, so i dont see a reason for the change. I have minimal issues with survivor role. Not only this, but i can actually see the impact of certain changes based on what i would do. For example, allowing people DC whenever they want with no penalty. What would that lead to? Me DCing over anything that i didnt like….because i can. If i can do it, others can too. If others did it, what would happen? Every match would be filled with bots and someone like you who never DC's would find themselves in matches with 3 bots very frequently. Its no good to swap 1 pain point for another.
Another example is wanting the game to be scored as a team not individually. Might sound like a good idea to resolve certain pain points. But in reality it would create another pain point where 1 player doing a totem challenge could cost the entire team the win, to be scored as a team without having a team on the same page is never going to be good.
People in this community are constantly asking what others consider a win. We even just had that question on the new survey, so it's not clear-cut, but the answers tend to be a 3k or a 4k/3e or a 4e. I certainly don't feel like I won when I get hatch unless the other three went out the gates first.
Define the wincon officially as team win simply by changing the number on the stat page and see how people change what they do. Pretty sure it would quickly change people like you who care more about a number than they do the actual experience or other human beings. I'm quite sure that abymassl loss number in your stats would flip the script.
Survivor pain points are brought on by themsleves? So a killer who goes into a match intending to tunnel immediately while running Dissolution and Bamboozle to make it near impossible to loop is the survivors fault? A survivor who is downed last who gets humped for 4 minutes for no reason did it to themsleves? A survivor getting camped to death in the basement is responsible for that? What is with this tremendous resistance t o placing the responsibility for killer actions on the killer choosing to preform them?
What would that lead to? Me DCing over anything that i didnt like….because i can.
You'd previously said you don't use the abandon that much. This clashes with that. By "not much" did you mean "every single time I know I won't get hatch"?
Every match would be filled with bots and someone like you who never DC's would find themselves in matches with 3 bots very frequently.
I've said many times I don't care if other people DC. If people want to go then let them go. I'll play against 4 bots or with 3 bots. Nine times out of ten, when three people DC early, the killer is cool with that one remaining person. Might be hard for you to believe, but most people have empathy and can realize and react to an unfair situation. I've had killers throw just because of one DC, saying they didn't think it was fair.
I also love this totem challenge that you bring up everyday that literally no one is doing.
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055869#Comment_4055869
i dont see that as unwinnable… i see the hatch as win, its an escape at the very least and does not lose MMR. Hatch also gives a lot of BP, counts towards adepts and escape challenges. many killers slug for the 4k but it doesnt stop me getting the hatch. These unwinnable matches are only unwinnable if you put your own win conditions as being "majority of the team needs to escape or its a loss". There is 0 indicators that a hatch is a loss….even if based on MMR it would be a draw not a loss
There's nothing in the stat page that says "wins" so that's cool that you see it as a win but if a killer win is considered a 3k then the team has lost once that's achieved. Maybe you'll change if they ever remove hatch escapes from the stupid stat page tally.
You continue to avoid the point. Why do you want the game to stay unchanged in avoiding survivor pain points?
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055793#Comment_4055793
it might be quitter mentality, i agree. How that mentality is stopped? in my case its stopped by having the option denied. As i stated, i dont DC as killer at the moment because the option is denied due to penalties.
Before the abandon, how many people DC'd at the end of the match when they were downed? very few compared to how many abandon in this situation, why? opportunity and lack of penalty.
An unwinnable match is pretty subjective. The whole point to the hatch is to give survivors a reason to never give up so there is always an escape option even when things look bleak at the start.
So you don't care about improving the player experience and making the game actually feel better, you just want rules that trap people in miserable matches. What good does this do for the game? And what's the purpose, aside from sadism?
Some matches are absolutely unwinnable. One of mine from last night:
Think they came back from this? I don't blame anyone who DCs in a stomp like this. There's a point where it's just a waste of time. There should be something to make it feel less so. They had said there'd be rewards for those who "stuck out difficult matches" when abandon rolled out yet those rewards never came.
Hatch means you lost so the game is unwinnable if hatch is even on the table. Most killers aren't going to let hatch happen anyway. If slugging for the 4k was made unviable then that situation could change. But why would we advocate for that when we can keep things awful?
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055781#Comment_4055781
most likely, but the whys is irrelevant, we want the same things….abandon feature removed and an end to quitter mentality.
I doubt we want the same thing. I want in-game comebacks for survivors instead of bandaids. You don't get rid of quitter mentality with an unwinnable match.
Also, this is quitter mentality as well:
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@runningguy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055758#Comment_4055758
we are on a roll lol another thing we agree on. Give them the option to abandon/dc/go next and they will indeed do it.
Pretty positive we vastly disagree on the whys.
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@100PercentBPMain said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055205#Comment_4055205
experience doesn't matter if people like him are the reason new people stick around. too many sweaty killers leaving people on the ground for the 4k are why this game has such gargantuan turnover rates
You can't explain being chill and nice to some people. I love when I get the occasional 2-hooker. Just had a Clown like that the other night who turned friendly after getting everyone on death hook, then everyone was friendly and wholesome in end game chat. It was much needed after a night of cheese strats. These players make things better for almost everyone when they swoop in at bad moments and remind you not everyone is toxic or sweaty. Helps keep the burnout at bay.
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@radiantHero23 said:
Im still of the opinion, that the massive amount of quitters is related to the abandonment system.
BHVR gave in and allowed people to not play out a match to it's conclusion. Yes, the match is over in some situations, but people could still watch it end.
If you don't have the 20sec to watch the killer mori you, you might not have the time to play the game in the first place.
This however isn't the big issue. It's that they endorsed quitter mentality. What we are experiencing now are the later stages of this. The second someone encounters a scenario they don't like, they quit.
For a pve game, thats more or less fine, as your the only one experiencing it. For a pvp game however, it's not as your actions have an impact on other people's experience.
It's not a popular opinon (for some reason) but I agree. I loathe the abandon feature. I basically never use it and don't understand how people are so apt to leap at the chance to leave mid-match. To me, it's the laziest possible way to not deal with issues or have in-game solutions, and just have people delete the match from their record instead. It's truly embarassing that this is where we're at.
I had this one match with a pair of flashlight users that refused to stop going for saves even when injured. I slugged them a couple times because I was actively trying not to tunnel them. The abandon came up and they both left with 5 gens up and only a couple hook stats across the team. The game essentially let them leave at the beginning.
And people are actually asking for more abandon options.
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I had no noticeable issues playing killer last night but if the CCs are being hyperbolic again then it must be game breaking.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/4055596#Comment_4055596
If we balance around the top killers why are we not also balancing around the top survivors?
Which top tier survivor can I buy and get easy wins like Ghoul? Because talking about individual player skill is not remotely the same as talking about built-in character abilities.
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I was really looking forward to something Lovecraftian but I think those two outfits are horrendous. Tortured Souls looks like Temu Hellraiser.
I've liked a lot of the stuff from the second half of last year though. Felix's Rift and Halloween outfits (minus that yellow, puffy hair), and Clown's Halloween skin, in particular. The birthday ones were also fun, as was GFs Santa outfit.
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It's me, the one Felix.