UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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@jesterkind said:
Since we know it's in the upcoming PTB, I've been thinking about what changes Distortion could get that would make it still useful and strong while making it a little less of a sledgehammer levied at all aura reading builds. I think I've come up with something reasonable.
There are two changes I have in mind. The first is just kind of an obvious one because it's weird the perk currently works the way it does here, but the other is the new one I came to more recently. They are as follows:
- The perk no longer hides scratch marks.
- The perk's duration is shortened from 10 seconds to 6 seconds.
The first one, as mentioned, is self explanatory, but I want to back up the second a little.
A lot of potential nerfs for Distortion that get floated around target its tokens and their regeneration, but I think that part of the perk is okay- I think a better thing to tackle would be something related to the effect itself, and something that makes Distortion kind of annoying to face is that even pairs of aura reading aren't enough to overcome it sometimes. BBQ and Lethal, for instance, is a combined seven seconds of aura reading, and that's two perks being countered at once by a single token on a single perk. Other pairs actually counter Distortion already - Gearhead and Lethal, for example, consumes two tokens per activation - but having that be more accessible seems like a fair change to me.
Changing the duration down to six seconds does two things. It keeps the perk useful because it counters single, shorter-duration aura reading as usual + the survivor still gets notified when a token is consumed, meaning they have six seconds to get in a locker or hide behind a gen if they really don't want to be revealed, and separately, it allows killers to feel less robbed on more dedicated aura builds by a single perk since they're more likely to be punching through tokens and consuming them quicker.
What do we think?
I think the not blocking scratch marks would be a good change actually. You blocked the aura, now you actually need skill in being stealthy to remain unseen rather than being given it for free.
It would also open up more thought to using something like Fixated or Urban Evasion in your build to get out of the way unseen.
I think the recharge in chase change is better, simply because Distortion let's you identify aura perks in play, so even if you have no tokens, you can still avoid the auras because you know they're in play... having it recharge in chase means you can get the advantage of blocking aura reads back by actually working for it, but even if you don't, the value of Distortion has already been attained.
However the need to actually build for stealth is also a good change rather than having it for basically free off a single perk.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791926#Comment_3791926
I think we're actually agreeing on the effect, but not the values. I totally agree that WoO improves people's effectiveness at survivor, just in my experience as a newer player, it generally makes survivor interactions much more boring... as I say you either need to keep dropping chase or bloodlust someone down.
that is true for any good looper. you'll always be in strongest positions as survivor and only risk element is you being bloodlusted down. sounds like your complaining about efficient looping which WoO does make worse loopers into better loopers. I do not see this as a problem because killer are suppose have chase capabilities to outplay said loops with killer skill from power or base-kit. leaving chases in my opinion is somewhat of a scapegoat to poor killer chase balance in which this game has long history of killer adapting to that.
Fair point, and that tracks and makes sense, the fact you can do this strategy with WoO obviously means you can do it without WoO, it just takes a lot more map knowledge and experience to do it.
I'm not really complaining about efficient looping, there is an argument to say that as a killer learning to play effectively, having low level players using WoO to play this way means you have effectively a boot camp where you are learning to deal with it right from the word go. I actually have a bulld on Pig centered around Game Afoot that is specifically crafted to counter this style of play... So in that regard I guess it's good thing for killer.
If I really think about it, I think what annoys me about WoO is more the fact I can't use it as survivor when crafting builds.
Therr have been plenty of times I'd have liked to use WoO in certain builds (I have fun trying to make different builds work), but as we've already discussed, WoO in my opinion makes you lazy and overly reliant on the perk, and for me it makes it very hard to resist developing bad habits... thus making it an perk I must ignore at all times. 😒
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The problem is if you remove the ability to attempt to unhook yourself, you have:
- No ability to sacrifice yourself for hatch or to stop your team trying to save you in basement/dead zone far from gate.
- No possible comeback if the killer slugs your entire team while you're on hook.
- 100% reliance on your team to pull you off hook, which if they don't coordinate, get pushes off by a camping killer, there is no response from the camped survivor.
I had an idea for a potential fix that keeps all of the above things intact, while also making it impossible to immediately leave. To date this is the best shot I know to somewhat limit the issue:
@UndeddJester said:
BHVR have stated they would like to address this problem, but don't have a good solution to fix it. I myself have pondered this many times, and every solution I came up with was unsatisfactory... however today I had an idea centered on a new state that might work...
The principle behind making it easier to prevent SoH players from leaving is: it is more beneficial to keep them in the game as long as possible to perhaps convince them to start playing again, or to leave and get a bot. This is always preferable to letting them leave you a survivor down, even if they go round wasting pallets and helping the killer (you can actually report them for this). It is ALWAYS in your best intetest to force them to stay in the trial as long as possible if they refuse to DC.
The Idea - Self unhook attempts Summons the Entity
I propose to add a new hook state that runs in tandem with stage 1, that I'm gonna call the "Summoned" Phase. So we have Summoning (1a), Summoned (1b) and Struggling (2).
The Summoned (1b) Phase is represented by the Entity tendril appearing and occupying the survivor, represented by the survivor holding 1 hand on the hook, and 1 on the main digit of the Entity claw reaching for them. Basically a sort of half Struggle state animation.
- The first time a survivor is hooked they are put in the Summoning (1a) phase. The second time will put them in the Struggling (2) phase same as now.
- Self Unhook attempts have the same 4% chance they have now, but no longer cause the summon/sacrifice meter to go down.
- Each failed Self Unhook attempt now causes survivors to gain a stack of Entity's attention, marked by a yellow block 33% the size of the sacrifice bar, and set on the right side of the bar. This is seen by you, other survivors and killers (no real difference to now).
- After 3 failed attempts the Entity spawns onto the hook and the survivor enters the Summoned (1b) phase. This phase has no skill checks and the Entity prevents further attempts to self unhook so the survivor must ensure more torment. The phase 1 timer carries on as normal.
- Each stack of Entity Attention will lose 19.66 seconds off the survivors Struggle (2) Phase timer. This means 1, 2, 3 stacks upon a second hook or the Summon timer expiring to reach phase 2 will leave only 40.33s, 20.66s, 1s before the survivor is sacrificed.
- When only 2 survivors are left alive or the gates are powered, The Entity is already sated with the punishment inflicted in the trial, and will immediately take the survivor to phase 2 after 3 failed unhook attempts.
- Rework Slippery Meat (Or if not, give 6 attempts and only cost 5s of the Sacrifice Timer per attempt... as this perk could use a buff).
Effects
- Longer Time to Save a SoH - A big problem of SoH is there are times you have to immediately drop what you are doing to get to them in time. This prevents this from happening and makes it so preventing a SoH is much easier for the survivor team to try and get a bot instead.
- Puts the Killer in charge of releasing a SoH from the game - It is worth noting that you cannot make a player play. If they want to die, they can make it happen by just running to the killer... however if its made more difficult to SOH as survivors can effectively stop you, and if it's placed in the killers hands as whether or not to let a player leave by hooking them again, the less appealing SoH is. A 2 min DC penalty beats 5 minutes getting teabagged on the floor.
- Doesn't Affect SoH vs. Griefing Killers - There are occcassions where leaving is warranted, such as if you are being targetted and harassed. You can just leave ofc, that is an option, but if you must SoH 2nd stage can go by very fast if youre left alone to die by fellow survivors. Truthfully you'll likely be slugged anyway if someone wants to troll you.
- Community Policing - As I've said before, BHVR want to stop SoH but can't... the only way to stem it is to make it hard to do and remove a portion of the power out of the SoH players hands... and the only hands who can prevent it is the DBD community themselves. There are plenty of players who grief with no means of retribution, this would be one of the few ways for the community to prevent a griefer.
- Kobe is unaffected - Allowing Kobe at all times leaves the purpose of Kobe in tact, with just as significant a penalty to discourage it. If you don't self unhook, you now leave your team with a much harder or even impossible time saving you suring second stage... but its still there as a desperate last gasp if needed.
- Suicide for Hatch or End Game Just Leave is actually better - Deliberately dying for hatch or communicating to your team to just leave is actually faster. If only 2 survivors are alive or gates are powered, your 3 unhook attempts result in you immediately going to Sacrifice stage with only 1 second until you are Sacrificed… no need to wait through skill checks.
- Thematically satisfying for the Entity - The Entity wants the maximum amount of fear and suffering from you, it makes sense it would halt you from trying to wiggle off hook unaided.
- One Downside - Trying to unhook as a last ditch before you go to phase 2 would cost you 20s... but more often than not, if this is happening you'll be unhooked and then be on 2 hooks stages anyway.
This solution to what I can see is the least intrusive to the mechanics of DBD, keeping most things intact and usable, and still within player agency, but making it so immediately taking yourself out of the game is simply not possible.
Even at its fastest, a 1 min DC penalty is better than 1 minute stuck on a hook and then risking 4 mins stuck slugged on the floor.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791781#Comment_3791781
at low MMR, it is used to pre throw and hold W. Majority of players are NOT high MMR.
for reference, pre throw and hold-w is common enough at high MMR. Not saying that this is always best play but in a lot of cases, it is relatively effective if you understand when to do it and how to do it.
They are using WoO to supplement their lack of map knowledge, and more often not, they use it to hold W and run pallet to pallet.
Is that not purpose of WoO? the purpose of the perk is facilitate and make up for a player's weakness. WoO happens do that extremely well.
If BHVR is using stats to track survivor performance when assessing/balancing maps (and I see no reason to assume they aren't), and a significant portion of the player base is using WoO this way, I don't think it's far fetched to attribute at least some of excessive map tile gutting to WoO.
I highly doubt it. Those map tiles were imbalanced with or without WoO. For example, Haddonfield houses were strong regardless of whether had WoO equipped or not. I don't think WoO has any impact on haddonfield houses becoming weaker. As a whole, I do not believe that WoO has any impact on map balance.
WoO is not healthy in its current state. It does help new players learn the game, it hinders their ability to learn the game.
this is incorrect assessment. WoO skips the process of learning map generation for new player. It does not necessary hinder their play besides making them attached to using the perk.
Training wheels perk is a good analogy actually. Training wheels prevent you from learning how to ride a bike, you don't learn to ride a bike until the training wheels come off.
The learning process is entirely subjective on the individual. the individual needs want to improve at a certain skill in order to improve on said skill. motivation is required. Since no one can stop a player from equipping a perk, the player can choose to never improve on map generation as they do not see a reason to improve upon said skill.
for reference, pre throw and hold-w is common enough at high MMR. Not saying that this is always best play but in a lot of cases, it is relatively effective if you understand when to do it and how to do it.
Is that not purpose of WoO? the purpose of the perk is facilitate and make up for a player's weakness. WoO happens do that extremely well.
This is fair, and I agree, knowing when to run and hold W is a skill to learn. The frustration is that this becomes the standard gameplay with WoO, it's got kinda a Distortion thing where you can often tell who has it by the way they play. With a number of killers it can be quite annoying that you have to say to yourself "yep, hold W again, do I drop chase or do I bloodlust them down?". It's not that it's too strong too face, it's just boring.
I highly doubt it. Those map tiles were imbalanced with or without WoO. For example, Haddonfield houses were strong regardless of whether had WoO equipped or not. I don't think WoO has any impact on haddonfield houses becoming weaker. As a whole, I do not believe that WoO has any impact on map balance.
Well, maybe I'm overplaying WoOs effect, I can admit that, but it's not having 0 effect. It's such a common perk, it's probably having some kind of effect. Like Decimated Borgo is a hard map to see what you're doing even as killer... and it's very difficult to loop effectively as survivor… but if you have WoO it's almost like cheating cause it's so effective, so WoO creates a big difference in survivor performance on this map.
It's like prior to Pain Res and Pop being nerfed, it would be reasonable to say a map being reworked and made stronger for survivors during this time would be accounting for the strength of Pain Res and Pop. How much of an effect it has is debatable, but it is a factor.
this is incorrect assessment. WoO skips the process of learning map generation for new player. It does not necessary hinder their play besides making them attached to using the perk.
I think we're actually agreeing on the effect, but not the values. I totally agree that WoO improves people's effectiveness at survivor, just in my experience as a newer player, it generally makes survivor interactions much more boring... as I say you either need to keep dropping chase or bloodlust someone down.
I'm not overly passionate about WoO, it's like Distortion. It creates a playstyle that sucks to play against. It's not that it's too hard to deal with, it's just uninteractive boring.
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@ChickenDR4MST1CK said:
This is my first time starting uo dead by daylight. I'm at my brothers house sitting on the sofa and he owns a ps5. He told me I could play any game I want so I started up this game, choose killer and as I scrolled down, what I noticed is he had wesker, nemesis, xenomorph and many more killers unlocked. So my first game was wesker and he is so fun and awesome to play. I love that I can dash around and throw survivors. After I was done with that game I played nemesis and wow he sucks.
I thought he would be fast or at least have a rocket launcher or something but all he does is do a silly slap with his tentacle that's nothing like the resident evil 3 games I played. And the zombies oh boy. This zombie stood in my way and let the meg escape. Why can't I push it away? It's a zombie... they also seem to attack the air instead of the survivor and they don't grab and bite them either. And whats with the blue paint thats on the survivors?
Why didn't you faithfully adapted this big dude to your game? It's nothing like the original or the remake. There is no excuse for not having a rocket launcher when there is a cowboy with a gun and turrets that shoot flames yes I played xeno too.
As a PS5 player myself who also struggled at first with Nemesis, your big issue with him when you're new to him is you need to learn to drag your whip.
Without going too in depth with hitboxes, you basically drag your hitbox with you as you strafe, so whipping and strafing makes your hitbox much wider, which makes hitting survivor over pallets and windows much easier.
In regards to him not having a rocket launcher, that's because a rocket launcher is a rocket launcher.
In this world we have chainsaws, knives, bear traps, swords, hatchets, claws and razor blades, Deathslinger has a harpoon gun that skewers a survivor. There is a degree of people aren't maimed as much as they should be, and it's all pretty deadly yes, but not infeasible to survive.
A typical rocket launcher has a lethal explosive radius of 15m, with shrapnel being lethal up to 150m. A tile in DBD is about that size, so unless we plan to blow up the entire tile and then some every shot and have a survivor instantly killed in the explosion, it's very hard to remotely believe a survivor could live through a hit... even if you gamify it and reduce it by half, it's still a huge radius that's impossible to balance for withoit making it look silly.
A lot of people argue that Jill survived a close range hit in RE3 relatively unscathed, to which I say yes she did... and it was as dumb in RE3 as it would be in DBD. No matter how much of a fan of RE3 anyone might be, I would trust that a true fan would be willing to call that moment out as a dumb moment and a blight on an otherwise great game. Jill is made to look ridiculous with how much plot armour she has, and Nemesis is made to look like he is either completely incompetent by being unable to hit a clear shot on a nearby target with a 15m blast radius... or his supposed rocket launcher actually fires cherry bombs with about as much lethality as a small bundle of squibs.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791426#Comment_3791426
but you don't need survey area if your skilled enough to recognize all loops in the game. that's training wheel use of the perk. Like i already know what all tiles are on like 95% of the maps. just about every survivor that is high MMR has same knowledge.
the people that are high mmr that use WoO use it for its ability to track pallet drops. they remove guessing part of "was my teammate looping here or not in chase 1/2/3?". "is the pallet broken?". your claim is that map are being weakened from WoO but maps were always being weakened since 2016 because… spoiler alert, bvhr doesn't know how to make balance loop designs that aren't just safe pallets/god loops everywhere or infinity windows.
their track record for killer balance is about as bad as their map balance because they keep having to "buff killers" because they're constantly undershoot the killer's power. this is obviously linked closely to map balance.
Yeah but again you are talking from the perspective of someone with thousands upon thousands of hours... not the perspective of your average player of DBD. Most players have to at least look at the tile as they move towards gens to work out the spawn, and I'd guess even more players havent learned the tile at all yet to even know the spawns. With a lot of hours sure, maybe you have the experience to be able to run the tile regardless of the spawn, but the vast majority of the average playerbase can't do that.
Yes, maps have been getting made weaker since 2016, but we know BHVR do a lot of their decision making off of stats. Because of this, I dont have any proof, just a suspicion that WoO is adversely affecting maps... I base this off the fact that WoO is an extremely popular perk, so it is a perk that is a regular player in stats tracking.
You're right. In high MMR it is used to determine spawns at tiles and check for used assets... at low MMR, it is used to pre throw and hold W. Majority of players are NOT high MMR, most players dont have thousands of hours under their belt. They are using WoO to supplement their lack of map knowledge, and more often not, they use it to hold W and run pallet to pallet.
If BHVR is using stats to track survivor performance when assessing/balancing maps (and I see no reason to assume they aren't), and a significant portion of the player base is using WoO this way, I don't think it's far fetched to attribute at least some of excessive map tile gutting to WoO.
I'm not stating this as objective fact, and its not the sole contributor, but I do have a suspicion WoO is having an not insignificant effect in regards to map balance.
Training wheels perk is a good analogy actually. Training wheels prevent you from learning how to ride a bike, you don't learn to ride a bike until the training wheels come off.
WoO is not healthy in its current state. It doesn't help new players learn the game, it hinders their ability to learn the game.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791313#Comment_3791313
Windows became more prevalent after a few map reworks, which have essentially just made maps more killer sided. Windows isn’t the reason for map reworks; people complaining about map size and tile strength and pallet density are why maps are being reworked. More players running windows is a consequence of that, not a cause.
You do see the negative feedback loop right?
Maps get weaker, more people use windows, survivors (who aren't actually capable of surviving without the WoO yellow brick road) aren't getting caught, maps get made even weaker, to the point anyone who isn't running WoO with the intent of actually learning the game just keeps finding themselves in bigger and bigger deadzones.
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3791313#Comment_3791313
i highly disagree with that. between 2016 and 2018, maps were becoming weaker before WoO was ever a popular perk or the perk ever existed. it is known fact that survivor loops were always too strong. they were too strong in 2016 with infinities everywhere and they're too strong now where safe loops = pallet break → repeat 10x over in a match.
it is not survivor don't loop. it is that survivor are not required to loop to win because gen speed is overly strong. that is what it feels like when playing vs swf. they do one good loop and the game is over. in soloq, it varies how many 90 second chases you need to win. bad team = 3 good chases, mediocre team = 2 good chases, super strong soloq high mmr team = 1 chase required.
Sure gens are fast, but you do understand that having WoO eliminates any need to survey the area at all right? You can blindly jump on a gen in full knowledge that WoO will guide you.
See the negative feedback loop above.
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This will be an unpopular post, but with the December 2023 stats showing a 32% usage for Windows of Opportunity, Nightlight showing a 35% usage rate recently... are we surprised no one really loops anything anymore?
This might be a hot take, but I'm really starting to suspect WoO is the reason every map and tile is getting gutted.
Windows and pallets are survivor safety, and effectively reaching them consistently makes it so that survivors perform better on average... which means maps need to be balanced around how frequently survivors manage to reach safety. If they keep doing too well, guess what? Remove pallets, remove windows... hello Haddonfield rework! Maybe WoO is fine at high level, but at low and mid (where the bulk of the playerbase is), WoO is busted good because it allows players to totally subvert skillful play at loops... so the maps are getting gutted to compensate.
I mean think about it, if you didn't have WoO up at all times, you wouldn't know for sure where the next safety is exactly unless you already scouted it. If you don't know where safety is, you're more likely to stick to what you do currently know and actually try and loop a tile. I know I've taken plenty of hits after running out of options, turning into a loop hoping for the right pallet spawn and nope, it's the other one, or it's used. With WoO, no issue, I didn't even have to learn/know the structure of the tile at all, I just see everything.
With WoO, why stick to a tile and bother looping anything when you always know where the next tile to chain to is? Loop so far as to put the killer on the wrong side of the pallet, throw it, and run to next.
Thus every new killer has some kinda built in anti-loop, every old killer is getting buffed to be better at loops, and cutting off survivors... why? Because throw pallet and follow the yellow brick road is effective.
However whenever anyone brings up WoO everyone says "it's just an aura perk". Yeah, an aura perk that enforces lazy and bad habits, and facilitates chases becoming an uninteractive auto pilot game. I've said for months now it's not that WoO is too strong, it just facilitates this lazy playstyle that totally removes any need from the survivor to do any scouting or map surveyance at all... and what's the result of that? Rush gens and don't bother to loop.
I've only been playing about 16 months, I'm a relatively new player, and even I REFUSE to use WoO because it actively makes me bad at the game. It does help new players win, it does not help new players learn the game.
I honestly genuinely suspect the reason maps are being gutted is largely because of the prevalent use of WoO to prethrow, hold W and trivialise/subvert all loop gameplay in low-mid MMR.
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All Boil Over users must die... 💥🐽💥🔪
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@Brutha said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790813#Comment_3790813
The original idea is in the comment above, I ended up just changing it to be blastmine but different due to a lack of ideas and the original idea seeming problematic
The one issue with Connection Terminated is it is a passive effect that hinders the killer. The survivor doesn't need to interact with the killer at all to trigger it, it just happens. This reads more like a killer perk, and is not how survivor perks are usually designed because the survivors can take 16 perks vs. the Killers 4.
Blinding the killer is interesting though, and I'd be tempted to make this a trap perk, except Blast Mine already achieves the goal of countering Nowhere to Hide.
Have we considered making perhaps the concept of a hook trap? Maybe use this to counter BBQ and Chilli on the likes of fast killers like Nurse, Blight, Billy, Oni?
Connection Terminated
After repairing generators for a total of 40%, Connection Terminated activates:
- Press the Active Ability button near a hook to install a trap. The trap remains active 100/110/120 seconds.
- After the killer hooks a survivor on the trapped hook, the hook explodes and stuns/blinds the killer for 3 seconds, and inflicts the blindness status effect for 25 seconds.
The survivor still gets hooked, but the killer now doesn't have their aura perks to let them race off and murder.
Could be combined with Reassurance and Parental Guidance to immediately freeze the hook timer while the killer is stunned and use the time to run away with no scratch marks.
It would also have potential for taking hits on the way to hooks, if you think they may wiggle off but aren't sure you can take a hit, trap the hook, but then still run and make distance if the killer still manage to make the hook without having to make a risky sabo play.
Unfortunately this is kinda like all 3 of the perks rolled into one, so new ideas for the other 2 would be needed as well xD
Nice work on the lore BTW!
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BL1 usually is hit by M1 killers who have to chase survivors halfway across the map after Sprint Burst or Lithe before a survivor has to start using tiles.
If the goal is to make killers that aren't Blight, Hillbilly, Nurse, Wesker, Spirit, Oni, Huntress even weaker, then removing Bloodlust is a good way to do it.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790246#Comment_3790246
I tried to get that one with Clown and in the end killed off two and let the last two go if they helped me to farm it. Got it in two games this time after I sat at 0/10 progress since Dracula dropped.
Now the only achievment that I am missing is "Hero of Walachia", but that one is not half bad .. if I would get just one killer who doesn't respect pallets :P I am at 3/10 for that one right now.
Hahahaha, so annoying when you get pallet respecter xD
My testing left me with 4 to go, and I somehow got 3 grabs in one game as Skull Merchant... then the last was a goofy m1 aim correct miss that I still somehow recovered fast enough to make the grab on a pallet xD
The pallet stuns haven't been too bad for me, my classic way of getting them is to exchange health states for stuns; Off The Record helps tonnes, cause you can deliberately eat a hit for an stun both when helathy and injured. Combined with parental guidance/smash hit, you can disappear into Narnia and not actually throw the game. 😁
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@Xernoton said:
It's incredibly unhealthy, no questions. I tried this myself to see how effective it is and lo and behold it's ridiculous. It works even against SWFs because most SWFs are not on a high enough level to mitigate the time loss by Knock Out completely. You wear them out until someone makes a mistake or they waste all their resources and suddenly you win.
Even if you don't win, the perk is incredibly unhealthy because it makes playing survivor miserable beyond comprehension. I actually made a post about this earlier this year:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/411175/knock-out-an-overlooked-issue
TL;DR: Knock Out needs a rework.
Tbh, just flipping the effects round of the timed/permanent part would solve a lot of the problems, and would make it much harder to successfully slug the whole team.
It still wouldn't be the healthiest perk, but it would be a lot healthier, and would have a genuine non-slug-for-4k use of making it harder to reach a pallet and slugging when people are hovering around for flashlight and pallet saves, countering Unbreakable, Flip Flop/Power Struggle, etc, etc.
It would also be good vs. Sabotaging, since the recovering of the survivor remains bad, and picking them up takes longer.
Would be a decent anti-bully perk, especially combined with the likes of Forced Hesitation and Infectious Fright.
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
My last Survivor matches:
Dracula, Dracula, Dracula, Skull Merchant (okay??!), Dracula, Dracula,...
I think I know why
Skull Merchant, new achievements/trophies for grabbing survivors during vaults, so Skully is not a bad should for that.
I've also seen a fair amount of Nemesis, Dredge and Knight.
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789841#Comment_3789841
You can't really ignore that much slowdown at all. You're basically one person down on gens for the entire game if it's up. Plaything you can just keep your eyes open, but that's not the case with Wretched Fate.
You can't be "designated unhooker or healer" unless you build for it. That's not really how it works.
I mean, that's the gamble isn't it? I mean yeah, it's a lot of slowdown, but it depends on if you feel confident you can get the Pentimento back off again if you cleanse it.
The risk is if you cleanse for the Pentimento, then you have the same 33% slowdown, but for everyone including you now, and because you know where it is, you can bet the killer will tunnel you.
So it's contextual most likely, I remember Otz said Pentimento might be a problematic perk once upon a time, and a lot of people tore into him for it... but his point was exactly this issue with Pentimento... if you have a Hex that is really strong and must be cleansed, then you have to deal with Pentimento... and Owntimento is a big deal if you can't deal with it.
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It's got the same vibes as Hex: Plaything to me, you should probably ignore the Hex if you're affected by it due to the threat of Pentimento, and focus on being the teams designated unhooker/healer instead.
If the killer chases you, they're not getting value from their Hex, cause you're not being slowed down, nor are they building Dying Light stacks,and obviously if you never cleanse they have a dead perk in Pentimento.
So by not cleansing they're basically perkless.
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Well... there's about 5 or 6 really good points there I can't really refute... 😅
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I got a team that quit almost immediately just now, so I couldn't be bothered to play it out and signalled at windows for their help in testing, and after a fair bit of different attempts, I can confirm it is indeed grabs and only grabs needed for this one, at least on PS5.
Guess it's a Clown or Skull Merchant challenge 😅
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PS5: Seems to be any tile with that structure regardless of its placement in the map:
https://youtu.be/E4EvNQOPHeI?si=rSPSRrCdV7VnXCtbHit this issue on Decimated Borgo on the exit gate.
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I saw a Sable yesterday get hit by Franklin's + Weave with full max charges Commodius, I didn't see her item drop, but she ran away with the killer in toe, I only noticed when I saw the Weave Attunement mark as I ran up to the gen.
I grabbed her Commodius, dumped all of it immediately into the gen, but ready to run if I saw Sable's chase marker stop wiggling, picked it up after it was spent then threw it in the corner.
We got a 7-hook, 4-man escape. Was quite a fun and close game that could have easily snowballed into a 2k, or maybe even a 3k, but my Borrowed Tiem came in clutch 😁
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Yikes... this one is gonna be rough... weird to release this with Dracula... his whole kit is designed to hit survivors in animation lock, bait them into not taking the vault for an m1, cutting off survivors from even getting to loops, hail marying with the wolf for a hit as they vault... his entire playstyle is the opposite of catching grabs...
Maybe I should play Clown or Skull Merchant to keep giving me those slow vaults... 🤔
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@doobiedo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788872#Comment_3788872
What is the point of that? If they dont want to play and their DC penalty is already too high they will just go AFK. Your "punishment" is not going to change anyone and make them suddenly realize how wrong they are, in fact it will probably do the opposite and just make them feel more justified and more likely to throw future games.
What's the point of crushing the group of players who want to play because they got a baby on their team?
The SoH player ruined their game and mine, so yes, every inconvenience I can exert on them, I will take, if for no other reason than for the catharsis of irritating them as much as they irritate other players, and the satisfaction of knowing they can't immediately rush off to ruin the next game for somebody else.
I consider it a community service, and I encourage everybody to do the same. Leave the baby slugged and let them choose between wasting 7 minutes of their day between lobby time and a 4 minute slug, DCing and eating their penalty, or playing the bloody game that they agreed to play when they joined the lobby.
You'd be surprised how many players after being slugged for 2 minutes and realising I'm not letting them off the hook easy start playing again.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788682#Comment_3788682
They also say change starts with you. Show us how it’s done. 🙂
Personally I consider a SoH game a dead game.
Whether you win or not doesn't prove anything, so the outcome of the game means nothing. It's amazing how much more fun DBD is if you ignore MMR as a motivator entirely (especially as you can't see it, so climbing the MMR ladder is completely worthless regardless of SoH or not). I can't stand leavers when I play survivor, so I don't tolerate then as a killer either. Game is just as ruined regardless of which solide you're on.
If I did something a little nasty to make a SoH a little understandable (such as stumbled upon a survivor doing their head trap on a Jigsaw box and taking another hook), I will likely just sacrifice them.
If however someone tries to SoH but gets saved by a player preventing it, or starts spamming lockers/pallet vaults just cause I'm playing Spirit, or Pig, or Skull Merchant (especially the way I play them), I slug them on the floor and keep slugging them on the floor until they DC or bleedout.
In either case, I play out as normal going for max hooks, and anyone who wants to quit I will let quit, but anyone else who plays on I will give hatch/let repair gens and escape.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788680#Comment_3788680
I don’t ever see killers slug. I see them go ahead and hook and turn the game into 3v1 then steamroll. Lol
You know what they say, be the change. 😉
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@doobiedo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3787614#Comment_3787614
Those are all balanced non-asymmetrical games. Completely irrelevant what they do.
It's not irrelevant at all, because all of those games are matchmaking games that requires both teams to have a full compliment of players to function.
DBD is exactly the same, it needs to have 5 players to function, and actually, it's even more important for an asym game to have full teams that are both playing, because 3 players on survivor side is a near insurmountable disadvantage, whereas in CSGO for example, it is still quite possible for a 4 man team to win against a 5 man team.
So to say it's not relevant is just objectively incorrect... it's objectively more important for DBD to heavily discourage quitters and leavers, because the fundamental concept of the game breaks without 4 survivors.
The only reason it isn't enforced in DBD is there is no guaranteed method to infer intent and objectively distinguish between genuine unhook attempts, genuine suicides to help a teammate with hatch, and ingenuine unhook attempts to subvert the DC penalty.
It is why as Killer if I see a player SoH for no reason and a survivor saves them, I slug them on the floor and force them to choose between bleeding out for 4 minutes or give their team a bot. When playing survivor I always unhook a SoHer and hope the killer does the same.
If BHVR can't police it in my games, I will police it myself using legal mechanisms to discourage this type of selfish behaviour.
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@totallynotamegmain said:
there’s always the classic Zenshin and Windows, but that’s obvious.
Eyes of Belmont is just Lethal Pursuer for survivor
That’s my argument, they both give auras on the posing side and extend other aura duration.
Good shout! I feel like EoB and LP will have similar levels of value for Survivor and Killer, they are directly comparable.
there’s always the classic Zenshin and Windows, but that’s obvious.
This where I think the conversation gets interesting, cause I wouldn't say Zanshin and WoO are similar value, even though they have the same effect.
Being able to see Windows and Pallet locations is much more valuable to survivor, since reaching the other side of them is generally safety for Survivor, whereas for Killer knowing the Window/Pallet is there doesn't really help you cut off the survivor.
I suppose I might throw:
Coup vs. Windows of Opportunity
They are on the same line, no real steps/work required to earn the value, can be used to make up for a less skilled players shortcomings, consistent, and does allow a pretty lazy mechanism/playstyle to subvert the normal mind games and skill required of the players to win exchanges 😁
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It's a byproduct of being safe behind a computer screen... being toxic in person comes with the very real possibility of being punched in the face, and that possibility counter intuitively helps keep the world somewhat civil 🙃
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@I_mean_yeah said:
Sure, then let's start the endgame collapse as soon as the last gen is done
Honestly if you start end game collapse and make it a flat 3 minutes regardless of hooks or downs... that would be something.
Remember Me and No Way Out might need a relook though xD
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To be fair… If you play against 4 bots in custom, they absolutely crank those gens 😶😶😶😶
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There are killers that really excel at tunneling due to how their kit works who do it more often. It's basically any killer like Spirit, Clown, Wraith, Blight, Nurse who have no built in mechanism to slow the game down.
They are however fast killers, and/or killers that are really strong at loops, which will typically encourage a tunnel playstyle. After all, why try to take 2 health stages off a healthy survivor, when you can ensure the survivor off hook can't heal and only have to hit them once.
The thing with these killers is the tunneled survivor can't really do that much against the tunnel unless they get a very favourable map... and sometimes even with a favourable map, there isn't a lot they can do either. The safest place they can be is on hook.
This is why I support the 70s hook timer change. Killers keep justifying tunneling by saying that is the best way to win. That would mean a change that this makes it so it isn't the best way to win is good is it not?
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@Hex_Ignored said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3786381#Comment_3786381
If a map spawns a perfect 3 gen like in those pictures and the killer decides to hold it, it's essentially impossible for a soloq team to break it, as they can't coordinate, which would be necessary.
This isn't a survivor issue, this is a map issue. Spawns like that simply shouldn't be allowed to happen.
I'm not saying all gen placements and map configurations are perfect, some maps do have egregious 3-gens with no safety to compensate (like Haddonfield rework), however 3-gens are a part of the back and forth tactical elements of the game, where a killer has to decide between committing to a chase or not.
Survivors have a choice between doing all the safe gens then trying to break the 3 gen at the end with 4 of them, or trying to break the 3 gen early while they still have all their items and pallets still up.
I don't like this logic of "soloQ can't coordinate effectively to break a 3-gen, therefore 3 gens should be forced out of the game". The fact is soloQ doesn't typically play optimally... but to assume it is impossible for them to do so is to place a natural cap on the skill requirement of soloQ, and balance the game so that anyone who does manage to play optimally completely crushes the killer at every turn.
This is DBD in a nutshell. When played optimally it is quite difficult for anything short of a handful of killers/builds to realistically compete. However at lower levels its the side who makes the fewest mistakes that wins, and there are 4 times more survivors to make a potential game losing mistake than there are killers.
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Hiyo all!
Sorry to necro, but for anyone who may be interested, I took some feedback from a few kind individuals and made a few additional addendums.
It mostly reads the same but adds in a few extra details here and there, and a little more cleaning up.
I may do a version 3 at some point where I try to chop it down, though truthfully it's a little hard to gut out any chaff, as there isn't really anywhere I myself would want to slice... if anyone fancies the role of editor and feels they can be ruthless enough, feel free to maybe a copy and have at it!
Otherwise, hope it is an entertaining read at the least😁🤘
Cheers!
The self-made millionaire Adriana Imai came from a humble home in Fortaleza, Brazil. Her father, Seita, moved to Brazil as a young man, hoping to see a side of the world completely different from his hometown in Hokkaido. Though working in menial jobs to fund his life there, he was a talented illustrator, spending most of his spare time designing colourful characters and worlds, drawing inspiration from the unique culture surrounding him.
While sketching patrons of a local jazz club, his work was noticed by the elegant Belinda. Introducing herself as the owner, she expressed great delight and interest in his unique style and talent, and following a brief discussion, she commissioned him to design a new logo for her establishment. What began as a business partnership soon became a romantic one, and within a couple of years, baby Adriana was born.
Growing up in a house full of art and music honed a brilliant mind, and young Adriana excelled in all areas of academia. Her success led to an incredible level of dedication to her studies, and she developed a near obsession with perfection; always striving to score at the top of every class. Over time this morphed into an extremely competitive and ambitious streak, where she would frequently become quick to anger and intolerant of anyone who threatened her standing. Before long it was no longer enough to be the best student, she had to be undisputed, and prove she was better than her peers in every aspect. She had numerous altercations with various rivals throughout her years there, as well as a few more serious incidents that required intervention and disciplinary action from the school…
Neither parent was particularly concerned however; Adriana’s mother was far more interested in continuing to push her success in her studies, while her father would instead excitedly share his work and passion with her. Despite working long hours at a canning facility and only writing his manga in his spare time, every night he would share his wild and highly imaginative illustrations with his daughter, challenging her and even using her own ideas in his work. He even used her likeness for Adi Valente, a young girl who saved and protected the weak with her quirky robot companion.
By middle school, Adriana's exceptional grades had caught the attention of a very prestigious private school who began courting Adriana's parents with promises to help her reach her potential. Both parents were immensely proud and keen to push her further; Belinda drew what additional funds from the jazz bar she could to cover the expenses, but still more funds were needed. Seita spoke to publishers about his unpublished manuscripts, though as an unknown name in the burgeoning Brazilian manga scene, it was hard to broker a deal. In the end, he managed to find a small local publisher willing to carry Adi Valente, though he had to settle for a less favourable agreement.
Initially, the funds were managable; however, as the popularity of Adi Valente grew, the demand and workload mounted, and trying to keep up with the series while working a full time job was simply not tenable. Taking the gamble on Adi Valente's success, Seita left the canning facility to work on Adi Valente full time, giving him more time to develop and illustrate his series. While it was certainly making him more money, the small publishing company was largely leaving the entire operation of producing the manga to Seita single-handed. His work consumed all of his time; inhuman hours, with no breaks or holiday, and often unable to spend any time with his daughter. The young Adriana watched on as her father toiled endlessly, seeing his once infectious smile and passion for his art dissolve into bitterness and resentment... all just to line someone else's pockets.
In her final semester at the private school, Seita had reached a breaking point and demanded the royalties he should be owed for his work, refusing to write more until he was paid properly. The publishing company however rejected his demands, and after a strong verbal conflict, they tallied their assets and concluded it was more profitable short term to liquidate the company, sell off their IPs, and go into administration to avoid paying Seita. It quickly became apparent the Imai family were no longer able to afford the mounting expenses, and despite being top of the class, Adriana had to be pulled out of the elite academy, and forced to endure the embaressment of being denied her diploma. Belinda tried to secure her a place to finish her graduation at another school, but Adriana angrily rejected every single offer. She watched on in horror as her academic rivals claimed their diplomas, along with numerous accompanying awards and accolades... Her awards. Seeing their success sickened her deeply and an unbridled hatred and resentment bubbled within her, spilling over to the school faculty, as well as the publishers that cost her father so dearly… She couldn't help but imagine all the ways their lives could and should be torn down…
Seita blamed himself for costing Adriana her future and tormented himself endlessly for plunging his family into hardship. The anger at his former employer mixed with his enduring sense of shame overwhelmed him, feeding his anxious thoughts and plunging him into depression. He tried to start anew with a new manga, but his art became a place to pour his darker thoughts into; a grim story of blood and vengeance. The manga followed a highly competent female assassin with a bladed mechanical arm who used remote controlled drones to survey and track her targets. Betrayed by her employer and after a failed attempt on her life, the story saw her track, hunt, and brutally gut the members of her former benefactor's organisation, affixing the skulls and bones of the weak to her drones as she carved through their ranks. He used darker imagery than he ever had before, and as he drew, he would subconsciously emote, his face mirroring the sinister intent he was inking onto the page... His wife Belinda expressed concern that his normally beautiful and flowing art now looked like a twisted and nightmarish fog... a dark dream. He took the name. Despite now having some notoriety in the industry, the tone of this new manga heavily clashed with his previous work, and he was unable to find a publisher willing to gamble on this new darker series.
Unable to sell Sonhadores Sombrios: O Mercador da Caveira, the family became solely reliant on Belinda’s income, but it was clear that her takings from the jazz club alone could not also sustain the home and family they had built. Facing mounting debt, Seita continued trying to get his work published, but as time drew on, his resentment and shame grew. He frequently cursed his former employer and his own foolishness before finally, he disappeared from the family home, the revolver he kept in his desk gone with him. A missing persons report was filed, but after a rather lacklustre investigation, and despite no body ever being found, the police unofficially concluded it was likely a suicide and the case was left to run cold.
Adriana did not take the loss of her father well, not aided by her mother being inconsolable, unable to work and refusing to accept Seita was gone. With their debts ever mounting, Adriana was never afforded the time to properly grieve and she set upon trying to find a way to keep her mother and her fathers home. She quickly found success however creating a website dedicated to the world of Brazilian manga in honour of her father, capitalising on the mediums ever growing popularity in South America. Seeing the obvious weak link in the manga development cycle, she allowed fan produced manga to be submitted with a rather loose piracy policy, and she used some smart advertising strategies to draw in large numbers of users and advertising revenue quickly. Before long, she had built a well-known brand in the ever growing Brazilian manga scene, producing a steady income stream. Despite her success, the website served as a constant reminder of her missing father, and wore on her constantly. Every time she tried to upload his manga to share his talent, she would instead pine over the pages of Sonhadores Sombrios, studying the intricacies of each panel, never able bring herself to submit the work and returning the manuscripts back to their drawer under lock and key. Still, the website grew exponentially, and the second she got an offer, she sold the site and never looked back.
Seeing the money she'd managed to make from selling the business, Adriana saw a new path ahead of her and turned her meticulous mind to studying investment and economics using any and all resources she could find in the Internet age. Despite being entirely self-taught, her keen intuition and uncanny ability to read people and the market saw her rapidly turn over small investments for unusually profitable returns. By the age of 18, without even a high school degree, she had already become a self-made millionaire. As stories of this business wunderkind spread across Brazil, her investments grew more and more brazen, and she started looking towards making profit on the back of turning businesses.
Her methods were ruthless; she blatantly ignored the people affected by her trades and looked over the losses she inflicted on others in each transaction with an indifferent disdain and contempt. Before long, she had the kind of money that allowed her to completely buy out small companies—companies that she would gut, replace with non-union workers, and sell at a profit. By her mid-20s, she was regularly flipping even well established businesses and corporations, and had built up a significant fortune, as well as a long list of enemies... Adriana didn't care. She saw the business world as uncaring and merciless, a place where the strong devour the weak. It had chewed up and spat out her father, and she had sworn she would never be on the losing side ever again.
Before long however her notoriety began to catch up with her, and while weaving her fingers into the early stages of acquiring (and slowly dismantling) a large real estate firm, she was being threatened with legal action and even receiving death threats from former business partners and employees. The more of the business she acquired, the worse the threats got, and Adriana became more and more paranoid. She fitted sensors and security cameras all around her home and obsessed over every detail of the system, constantly tweaking and adjusting the cameras and sensors to minimise and cover any dead zones. Before long, the system had become more and more sophisticated, and she had even replaced the static cameras with mobile drones, mounted with sensors, to create a near impenetrable web of detection... All the while, she continued her ruthless expunging of the business, trading from the safety of her home...
It would turn out that her paranoia was well founded... As the deal to acquire a big stake of the firm was coming to fruition, one that would make the full acquisition of the business a mere formality, her drones fired an alert to her radar, revealing 2 black clad individuals trying to break in. Adriana stared wide eyed at the drones camera feed, knowing the danger she was in… However instead of fear, Adriana felt a sensation she didn't expect... The room seemed to darken around her, almost as if shadows were creeping across the walls, but at the same time her sight and senses were sharper than ever; she was calm and ready, almost a little excited. She carefully removed her pistol from her desk, the same model owned by her father years before, and waited. As the two intruders snuck through her home, unaware of the silent observers tracking their every movement towards her main office, Adriana watched their locations intently on her remote sensor.
Reaching the doors and spying her through the keyhole to her office, the two intruders burst through the door together and raised their silenced weapons toward Adriana sat in the office chair. Without hesitation, they unloaded their magazines, shredding the figure before them to ribbons. Their silencers radiated smoke as they dropped their magazines and grabbed a second set from their belts ready to reload, as the chair creaked round to face them... only to reveal a shattered and broken mannequin sporting a wig and Adriana's clothes. At that moment, Adriana stepped out behind them and fired a single shot to the back of one's head before firing 2 more into the hand and knee cap of the other. Both men fell to the ground, one dead instantly, the other screaming in agony.
She kicked the survivors weapon away, sat on top of him, clasped her hand over his mouth, and calmly demanded the name of his employer. At first, he refused to talk, swearing through gritted teeth and unleashing all kinds of threats. However, as if exhilerated by his defiance, she pulled out a long blade and looked over his body with a wicked smile. A few excruciating minutes later, a bloody Adriana had her list of names...
The incident was never reported to the police, there was no mention of it anywhere, no blood or damage left in the office, and Adriana herself had seemingly vanished into thin air, with the deal left hanging in limbo for days before finally petering out. No one had any idea what became of her, not even her mother, who only knew Adriana had seemingly taken her father's manuscripts. The firm directors set about undoing the work Adriana had done and returning their firm back to normal.
They even had a stroke of luck; a new investor seemed interested in filling the hole left by Adriana, and seemed very keen for a quick and fruitful partnership. The key directors of the board were invited to meet at a conference in Switzerland. A well-spoken gentleman met them in a private room and discussed their business at length, demonstrating a detailed knowledge of the industry and business landscape around their firm. It was extremely impressive, to say the least, and a very favourable deal was quickly struck. With several days left of the conference remaining, the leaders were convinced to take in the beautiful landscape and sights around the Alps, joining a small private tour group.
After the ride to the mountains and a stop off at a cabin midway through the tour, the directors readied to move onto the second half, with a hearty meal and expensive brandy filling their bellies. Something, however, was very wrong; their tour guide was nowhere to be seen, nor their newfound partner. The directors searched the area in confusion before scrambling in their packs, only to find their communication devices were missing... it was then Adriana appeared before them...
She stood with a diamond encrusted mask partially covering her face, a crude mechanical right arm adorning 2 large blades, and a scanner in her left hand. Adriana gave a curtsy, the twisted smile visible even through the face cover, as she introduced herself as “O Mercador da Caveira… The Skull Merchant”. Despite her partially covered features, they recognised her immediately and quickly grasped the danger they were in. Some began trying to bargain for their lives, others looked for a way to escape... only to find themselves contained by the uneven ground and cliff edges. She stepped slowly towards them, mockingly flourishing and asking what they thought of her new look. Refusing to play her game, the lead director demanded she stay back, vainly raising his hands to keep her at bay.
With a contemptuous tsk, Adriana lunged forward, the gears around her shoulder and elbow whirring intensely, and she easily smashed through the man's limbs with bone snapping force before burying her cruel double-bladed mechanical arm deep into his midsection. She paused for a moment to look deep into his eyes, watching his life fading away before giving an almost effortless flick of her wrist, the mechnical arm tearing open his guts and severing his spine. His body slumped heavily to the floor… the rush of emotion and adrenaline in the momentary silence was unlike anything she had ever experienced before. The rest of the party scattered in panicked screams, stumbling into the mountainous terrain... It didn't matter… Every single contingency had already been carefully accounted for. Adriana shuddered with excitement as her drones and radar blinked into life. The hunt was just beginning...
Returning to civilian life and in light of the "tragedy" that had befallen the firm, Adriana effortlessly acquired the remaining seats of the board and sold off the company to the highest bidder. She lamented it was "far too painful" for her to stay on to manage her part in the business. Thus began an unsettling cycle. Numerous larger-than-life CEOs and board members mysteriously gave up their seats in several high-profile companies to new investors from all over the world. Some of them just ‘disappeared’ without a trace, and a new player would suddenly appear to take their place. Authorities tried to track where the money was going, but it was well laundered through different networks each time... completely untraceable.
Despite her precautions however, the interest around her was getting too much, and even scaling back to smaller businesses was still garnering more attention than she wanted. She decided to make one last score before using her substantial fortune to disappear. An aggressive manager of a fireworks company, known for his “survival tours,” would be her last target, right at home in Brazil. Survival tours… a perfect cover.
Just as every time before, her plan was meticulously crafted to ensure she could savour every moment of the hunt uninterrupted. Adriana lured him to a decommissioned airship hangar, far from any local populace. The hunt started at dawn and went the distance. Each hunt had seen her iterate, upgrade and modify the designs of her weapons and equipment, yet even so, he had managed to evade her numerous times with her still tracking him well into the evening... A survival tour indeed, but he was wounded from their last altercation; it was now only a matter of time.
One of her drones chirped into life, and she spotted her quarry once more; whimpering and straining at his limit, exhausted and barely able to crawl. She used the drones to track his desperate shuffling to a dead end and watched as the man collapsed to the floor. She calmly pulled on the mechanical arm, preparing to finish him, but as she adjusted her weapon, a pair of kites suddenly appeared on the drones' camera moments before the feed sputtered and died. Her face hardened... then her eyes widened in disbelief as she slammed her laptop shut and charged to where the drone had crashed. There, she found her prey reaching out to someone in the growing dark for help.
Impossible! Witnesses! Not part of the plan!
Without a second to lose, she plunged her twinned blade through his stomach and wrenched it free, exposing meat, bone, and a dying heart. The vitiated body staggered left and right, sending a shower of red over the green foliage. As her victim collapsed with a thud, she turned to the young witnesses watching on in horror. With a sneer, she flicked her blade and whispered, "Wrong place, wrong time". The youths broke into a sprint, and she eagerly gave chase, her blades thirsting for more blood... she began to wonder if she could really leave this life behind when it was done....
The lush green of the trees melted into a thick black fog. Real life warped into something like the dark imagery her father used in the pages of O Mercador da Caveira. Visions of death and pain filled her mind... the same rush of her first hunt ran through her body, more intense than ever... a sick grin crept across her face as she gave herself to the fog, ready to begin this new chapter in her life…
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Unfortunately your ranking on a new killer is only 700 or so below your killer average... so if you're a God on several other killers that will bring you vs. stronger teams.
My own advice would be, while loading in before you start the game say out loud to yourself "kills don't matter". Remember you're here to learn the killer, not win games. Playing vs. strong survivors is actually what you want if you really want to get good at the killer.
So don't be disheartened, use this time to play rather chill and experiment with things. If something doesn't work, don't get upset about it, that's what you're here for, to try stuff out.
I play like this 24/7, I deliberatly take builds that aren't meta and just see how well I can do. It's amazing how resilient you can be to even the most toxic teams when you've already said to yourself "I'm handicapping myself in order to learn, big deal of you beat me".
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Shroompy! Good to see you back in the forums my dude!
I feel like it's a good thing personally. Nemesis has been left behind so long... i was hoping for a bit more of an ambitious rework, but good to see him in the firing line 😁
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This has all been a fascinating read... and I see the arguments of both sides...
If 5 leaves her too relaint on locker spawns, and 7 is too forgiving for spamming hatchets... what about 6 hatchets? 🫣
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@ChaosWam said:
Sadako's Iridescent Remote is fine the way it is, but the Iridescent Tape? Not a fan of it.
Instead of:
- Projection no longer turns off TVs, but also no longer applies condemned
- Increases time required for TVs to turn back on by +20% when turned off by survivors
I would suggest:
- Projection only applies 1 stack of condemned to the TV Sadako projects to
- TV cooldowns from survivor interactions are reduced by 10%
- Holding a cursed tape applies 1 stack of condemned to the survivor holding it when Sadako projects to any TV. Holding a tape prevents TVs from applying condemned.
This would bring back somewhat of the old 1.0 Sadako, buff TV cooldowns a tad, make survivors really think about nabbing a tape to prevent Sadako from coming to them or ignoring it to avoid the tape giving them condemned, and make survivors figure out if the Sadako is running it or not without touching her current kit outside the addon. Honestly this is one of many ideas I'd have for Iri Tape.
Edit: Can I chime in real quick to say your idea of vaulting while holding a survivor would make a really funny perk in general? Love that idea.
This would be an awesome change actually, fully support that.
I personally think Clown's Pinky Finger is gutted beyond repair. If the point is to make unique gameplay, I would have it so he gets 1 and only 1 pink.bottle, but the rest of his bottle count is only his antidote.
This means he is still throwing antidotes to zoom around, which survivors can also huff to zoom around with as well, but he only gets his 1 shot with the exposed effect. That seems like it'll be interesting and fair, without being completely useless.
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@HexHuntressThighs said:
I wanted to get some other people’s ideas on how to change or rework some of the worst Ultra Rares in the game for a video. For example I think both of Huntress’s UR’s are bad because they encourage her to hardly throw any hatchets or none at all. So I would change them like this:
Iridescent Head
- Hatchets that hit gens cause that gen to explode and instantly lose 5%
- Hatchets that land next to survivors healing or repairing cause them to receive a difficult skill check
- Hatchets hits past 45 meters inflict dying upon the survivor (maybe too strong idk, could probably leave this one out)
Soldiers Putee
- Pickup survivors 20% faster
- Vault windows while carrying survivors
- Carry survivors at 110%
But I don’t know good or interesting changes that would make sense or be fun for other killers ultra rares. So let me know about your own ideas!
Missed opportunity to have Soldiers Putee allow you to throw Survivors at a hook from range.
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I do personally think that game events should be implemented into MMR calculations.
I've said for years that the 1vs1 chess ELO system that most MMR systems are based on is far too simple for games with a complex match making system like League of Legends or DBD.
These are games where your team can cost you a game through no fault of your own, but also a game where your teammates can carry you with no input from yourself at all. Simply boiling it down to escape vs. not escape is too simple.
That said an overly complex system based on scores creates issues with farming throwing off skill caluculations.
Boring Number part
If it were me the 2 simplest and fairest metrics to weigh MMR skills of players on are gens completed and hooks. E.g. with some example guesstimate numbers:
Killers:
- Kills grant MMR of say +2 per kill, -2 per gate escape.
- Hooks grant MMR of say +1.5 per hook and -1.5 per missed hook (hooks not hook stages).
- Gens grant MMR of say +1 per gen not repaired, -1 for each repair gen.
Then obviously apply a multiplier based on the skill difference vs. The Survivor team average.
This would mean killers who camp and tunnel players out are less likely to get all 12 hooks, and allow multiple gens to go by since they are not applying pressure to other members of the team. Some example results:
- Killer 0k (-8) with 2 hooks (3 - 15) and 5 gens completed (5) = -25
- Killer 0k (-8) with 8 hooks (12 - 6) and 5 gens completed (-5) = -7
- Killer 1k (2 - 6) with 8 hooks (12 - 6) and 5 gens completed (-5) = -3
- Killer 2k (4 - 4) with 6 hooks (9 - 9) and 5 gens completed (-5) = -5
- Killer 2k (4 - 4) with 9 hooks (13.5 - 4.5) and 5 gens completed (-5) = +4
- Killer 3k (6 - 2) with 7 hooks (10.5 - 7.5) and 4 gens completed (1 - 4) = -2
- Killer 3k (6 - 2) with 11 hooks (16.5 - 1.5) and 5 gens completed (-5) = +14
- Killer 4k (+12) with 0 hooks (-18) and 1 gens completed (4 - 1) = -3 (slugging is bad mmmkay)
- Killer 4k (+12) with 6 hooks (9 - 9) and 3 gens completed (2 - 3) = +11
- Killer 4k (+12) with 12 hooks (+18) and 4 gens completed (1 - 4) = +26
Survivors:
Survivors are little more tricky as they have to be calculated when the survivor dies/escapes. Since they may not be in the game as long with fewer "events" to track, they need bigger numbers...
- Escapes grant MMR of say -7 per death, +7 per gate escape.
- At point of death/escape, allies not on hook/dying/escaped +2, allies dead/dying -2.
- At point of death/escape, gens completed grant +3, gens not completed grant -3.
Again apply multiplier based on the difference between Killer and own MMR.
Survivors meanwhile enjoy bonuses based on their contribution to the team, and taking chase from the killer can actually result in net gains of MMR. There is also some incentive to not be the last man standing. Some example results:
- Survivor death (-7) with 0 allies alive (-6) and 1 gen done (3 - 12) = -22
- Survivor death (-7) with 1 ally alive (2 - 4) and 0 gens done (-15) = -24
- Suvivor death (-7) with 1 ally alive (2 - 4) and 4 gens done (12 -3) = 0
- Survivor death (-7) with 3 allies alive (+6) and 0 gens done (-15) = -16 (yes you SoH players suck)
- Survivor death (-7) with 3 allies alive (+6) and 3 gens done (9 - 6) = +2
- Survivor death (-7) with 3 allies alive (+6) and 5 gens done (+15) = +14
- Survivor escape (+7) with 0 allies alive (-6) and 2 gens done (6 - 9) = -2
- Suvivor escape (+7) with 0 allies alive (-6) and 5 gens done (+15) = +16
- Survivor escape (+7) with 2 allies alive (4 - 2) and 5 gens done (+15) = +23
This looks like it would work a lot better than just Kills vs. Escapes. There is the caveat that a survivor can dip before their ally is downed to get more MMR, bit that would be rare enough to not really matter (and it's only worth 2 points, gens repaired has the bigger effect).
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Even though I fully support the hide prestige change...
I think unlocking a p100 charm for that character only that you could equip on your hook/waist would be a pretty cool compromise.
This achieves what players like the OP want, they get to show their p100 status but it's entirely optional.
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@Memesis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785159#Comment_3785159
I imagine it working with a telegraph, like in REmake 3 the way there's a targeting laser that changes color when fired. The projectile can move no faster than the slowest huntress hatchet, and can be limited in number to balance it being one shot downs (2 or fewer shots per game) or one health state (8 shots or fewer).
Let it spawn in one of the 4 item boxes that have vaccines but make it random and need to be briefly searched by Nemesis. It could replace the whip but function the same in terms of wind up time and movement speed slowdown.
I'd have a much easier time accepting a 1 shot down version… though 2 shots is kinda raising this flag of why have it in the game? It either has to be so strong that's it becomes oppressive, or so trivial that it doesn't matter.
Replacing his tentacle with it is just not feasible to me. As I said in my other posts above, a Rocket Launcher is hard pill to swallow someone surviving a direct or near hit.
A quick Google reveals that the effective lethal range of a standard rocket laucher is 15m, and then shrapnel is lethal for a further 150m.
If we ignore the shrapnel, 15m is a pretty large distance, and even if you gamify it and make it half of that, you're still talking 7-8m, which is about a the size of a weak pallet loop... even a small rocket launcher explosive radius is the size of a weak loop, and I don't know how you make that remotely fair and still keep it as a Rocket Launcher...
To scale it down to his tentacle, it becomes less a rocket launcher and more of a firework pop rocket dispenser...
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@Seraphor said:
Eh, I'd like there to still be some randomness and a way to incentive playing the other role.
Maybe if you were always guaranteed at least one of each role within a set of 4, so it would be purely random up until the 4th daily ritual, at which point if the other three were all survivor/killer, the 4th one would be the opposite.
I was about to say the say thing...
I mean there is a whole half a screens worth of space available 😏
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785246#Comment_3785246
Im not the one gatekeeping fun things from the game :)
You're objectively wrong because your entire point boils down "they cant do that because I said so".
If they ever decide to add rocket launcher, we'll have one. Period.
if devs want to add rocket launcher (Which would too late for nemesis alas but we`re speaking generally), they would add and no amount of coping "tHiS dOeSnT mAkE sEnsE" would stop them.
OK, I am gonna rewrite Trapper's lore. He's actually a lovely boy who has been tormented his whole life, and his only childhood friend was his plush toy Rabbi the Rabbit.
Because he loves him so much, he wants to use him in the trial, so instead of using his machete he now hits survivors over the head with Rabbi to injure and down them. Is there anything special about Rabbi? No he's a normal plush toy Rabbit.
That is dumb, and doesn't make any sense, how can a plush toy Rabbit hurt anyone?
If the devs want to add a plush toy Rabbit as a weapon, they would add it, and no amount of "tHiS dOeSnT mAkE sEnsE" would stop them.
I'm not the one gatekeeping fun things from the game, and if you disagree with Rabbi, you're objectively wrong because your entire point boils down to "they can't do that because I said no".
I'm not trying to insult you, but this kinda argumentation is why we get so many crap sequels to all kinds of games and films in modern media. Continuity, world rules and logic are extremely important, even (and I'd almost say especially) in fiction.
The universal rules in DBD are set, and a rocket launcher doesn't make sense. I am willing to listen to how a rocket launcher can be made to make sense, but your current iteration is extremely bad in the context of the Universal logic of DBD as it stands.
I don't think it is unreasonable of me to ask you to do a better job in defining your rocket launcher in a way that is more consistent with the current world rules of DBD, rather than just hearing you say "make it like Unknown" and consider the problem solved.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785238#Comment_3785238
it's very much compatible.
let me put it even simpler: all you said is not relevant.
if devs want to add rocket launcher (Which would too late for nemesis alas but we`re speaking generally), they would add and no amount of coping "tHiS dOeSnT mAkE sEnsE" would stop them.
If devs do add rocket launcher - best balancing would be to make an alternative version of unknown's UVX blast with different balancing factors which always worked just fine.
Ah I see. The old "I choose to completely ignore your argument and not engage with any points raised" counter.
You're entitled to that point of view.
You're wrong, but you're entitled to it. -
@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785222#Comment_3785222
Firstly, that means that survivors not dying from rocket launcher isnt that big of a deal as you make it out to be.
Secondly, Unknown's blast works just fine. Rocket launcher being a variation of it with some other limits would be fine. It's not that deep as you think it is.
Firstly, that means that survivors not dying from rocket launcher isnt that big of a deal as you make it out to be.
Umm... sorry?
Secondly, Unknown's blast works just fine. Rocket launcher being a variation of it with some other limits would be fine. It's not that deep as you think it is.
Ummmmm... sorry?
I am totally confused... neither of those statements are compatible at all with anything I just said.... 🤨🤨🤨
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3785159#Comment_3785159
Pretty sure Jill survived the rocket launcher in games too.
As for balancing - balancing it like Unknown's grenades but with direct aiming/projectile would make the most sense. Give survivor as laser pointer warning which also helps to see where the killer is aiming and make it so they need to slightly predict where the killer shoots so there's room for a mindgame. Add a minimal windup and max wind up hold duration to make it worse at zoning.
A bad idea in the source does not make it a good idea to bring across my guy… Whether you love or hate Resident Evil, even as a fan and labelling it as the Resident Evil goofy cheese that we adore, anyone would have to admit Jill tanking that hit was pretty ridiculous if you consider it with even the hardest lean of realism. Like the game doesn't have to be realistic… but it does have to have some semblance of logic and rules in place… and once you've defined your logic and rules in your Universe, you have to stick to them, you can't just break them at will… and a Rocket Launcher in DBD just doesn't make sense.
I mean think about it… are we honestly saying a survivor could survive a direct hit from a rocket launcher… but not a knife to the stomach from Michael Myers? No amount of suspended disbelief allows that to not be a 1 shot… and you might think it's not important, but to plenty of people, it is.
Having the world grounded in rules allows lots of people, like myself, to maintain investment in the world and story. If literally anything goes, then that lowers the stakes, and drastically reduces investment in that story/world/universe, because you know that there is no cause and effect, whatever the creator wants can just be deus ex machina'd in without rhyme or reason. E.g. Why should I care about the narrative of trying to kill/catch survivors, when the Entity can instead just say "I choose to not let this survivor die in this explosion, cause it is not yet time". Like why am I as the killer even here?
Even if we push that aside…. for balancing, that'd be awful… The Unknown's main power is that he can hit AoE… and even he has to hit the target twice, AND he can't hit direct hits…. How precisely are we gonna balance a Rocket Launcher… when Unknown's goop is balanced, and takes 2 hits to injure someone?
Like if I was to be serious about adding a rocket launcher for Nemesis… I'd say… a rocket launcher spawns with a single shot in a crate after all injections have been used by survivors. This rocket launcher has a minimum arming distance of 24m, and will instant down any survivor caught in the outer explosion, or hit directly by the missile before it is armed. Any survivor caught in the central explosion of a shot over 24m is instantly mori'd and turned to giblets.
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As a Nemesis player yourself, I did want to ask you...
I personally would have liked to see his zombies become more dangerous via use of red heads, with self defence tools like in the RE:make to compensate, so I'm with you on that direction...
But, I hear people talk about giving him a rocket launcher often...
I genuinely wanted to ask... have you given any thought to how that could possibly work in the game? I admit it would be cool... but practically speaking where would you even start in making a rocket launcher remotely believable/engaging to face?
Every other hit in this game is something that you can squint and believe someone could survive... yes chainsaws, hatchets, knives, harpoon guns, kunai, bear traps, etc would maim you more than is represented in the game, but the point is you COULD survive, so our suspension of disbelief isnt hit too hard....
However no amount of squinting or logic twisting is gonna remotely allow me to accept surviving a shot from a rocket launcher... and how would you even juke the darn thing?
Maybe if it had a minimum arming time, that might work... but again, how on earth would you begin to make it remotely fair? Far as I can see, it'd have to have so many restrictions, it almost becomes pointless having it... like literally I'd be considering giving it 1, and only 1 shot if I was to remotely take the idea seriously.
Do you have any thoughts of how a rocket launcher could work? Cause I'd be interested to read it.
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STBFL is your friend!
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@Atsuka_Anarchy said:
I believe that this thread represents the collective voiced opinions/suggestions of Pig mains. QoL changes that we often hope will one day happen.
The custom FAN MADE Saw/DBD theme is an absolute masterpiece that would be highly appreciated as it’s long overdue. If a fan could make this work so incredibly well, then imagine the theme being officially implemented within the game amongst the classic themes like Myers chase; she’s 1 of 3 last licensed killers (Freddy and Leatherface) WITHOUT a theme.
Having something as simple as “Game Over” from the actress, Shawnee Smith, who embodies Amanda, would absolutely be another great addition. As you already stated, when she on the prowl looking for her target, she’s not saying much.
For her animations, I believe that within the Entity’s realm the chosen killers are imbued with incredible abilities/powers which include strength and durability, so that would make sense in the realm for Mandy to be able to just pick up survivors with ease as she’s Arachno-fueled by the Entity. Though there’s no disagreement here with ANY positive updates on her animation. It’s welcomed!
Her head models could definitely use some resizing, as it looks a bit funky when you try to combine any outfit not with the corresponding pig mask. Mainly being too big or too small (on the anniversary outfit, the other heads look atrocious).Her hands, especially when playing in first person, do look noticeably huge and looks more like hands John Kramer has as Jigsaw on his life-changing escapades. Simply resizing them would remedy this issue.
These changes would he highly welcomed and enjoyed by the Pig community as we clamor for such QoL changes to be implemented within the game (no pun intended 🐷).Though when I think about it and let my fanboy brain off the leash... it would be awesome to have Hoffman as a legendary as well.
It would be especially cool if Amanada had a set of animations like this (the work smarter not harder kinda idea), and we got Hoffman as a legendary with a more brute force approach similar to how Pig is now. He tended to be a little more ruthless in the films, so I'd love the mechanical hook to be something he more viscerally rams into the survivors shoulder than Amanda does.
Having the 2 sets of animations to make the legendary feel more unique would be so cool...
Unique moris between them as well? I'd happily pay a premium for that skin and all these other changes 🔥🐽🔥
I better stop before I get too carried away with the idea... 😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁😁
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To be honest I don't think there is any wayto solve this issue via hatch. The only way I can see solving this problem is to add a generator progression/chase timer to the AFK crows.
From the last point where no generators were being progressed, a 90s timer starts. If survivors as a team fail to collectvely progress generators by 20 charges over the course of the 90s they all automatically gain a crow tier. This timer is automatically reset to 0 whenever a survivor enters chase.
Something like that is the only way I can think to counter perma hiding.
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With Spirit I find even with a headset, it's quite hard to pinpoint/predict exactly what she is doing, and ultimately any move you make is still a 50/50 guess pretty much every time.
In some ways I think not being able to hear her might be more effective for mind games... with that "if I don't know what I'm doing, she doesn't either" kind of logic 😅
I don't use the Visual Terror Radius, cause I'm not deaf, and I'm a purist 😏
However does Spirit's phase walk affect the VTR? If the whoosh is close does the VTR get bigger? That would at least be something that isn't a huge advantage what would help.
Also nerf Cherry Blossom pl0x... it's shorter range "nerf" was actually a buff... it's easier to pinpoint exactly where a survivor is... 😶
I dont think though these is really a way you can nerf this add-on to not be problematic... It might be nice if Cherry Blossom gave away Spirit's footsteps while the add-on is revealing a survivor with killer Instinct... if Spirit gets a limited ability to see the survivor, the survivor gets a limited ability to see her too... that seems fair.