UndeddJester
UndeddJester
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I find it so fascinating how polarising WoO is.
I personally hate it, cause it's a brain dead perk. Just follow the yellow brick road and you'll survive longer than the average survivor with literally no effort. I've said time and time again I refuse to use it cause it gives you bad habits and makes you actively worse at the game by running it.
It's similar to Distortion, you can kinda see it in the way people play. A lot of WoO users are lapsidasical, they don't bother to read the HUD or react to the way the match is going, cause they are in brain off mode.
The perk isn't inherently flawed, it's more a problem with the way the vast majority of people who run it tend to play... cowardly and lazy...
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@Gr3yGamer said:
His ability in question whether or not it makes him harder is the issue, marking a survivor in the dark on a dark map, is the problem So i still believe he shouldn't be allowed
Ghost Face and Myers are far bigger issues than Dredge in this regard....
Dredge at most gets 1 m1 on you, and off you run into Narnia... and he doesn't have scratch marks to help him anymore... so one bad locker jump that the survivor predicts and it's very easy for him to lose the survivor completely.
He also helps survivors find each other, cause survivors get to see each other in white too.
At first I thought Dredge would be broken, but I've done better against him than most killers.
Also as to why Freddy is banned, it will be because his dream world filters clash/override the lights out filters. His power would have to be fundamentally disabled to function.
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It's got a lot of cool ideas, I can feel the passion and love of the character, but a lot of it is not very practical.
The dream transition idea is cool, but his gameplay loop becomes being in the right mode to sneak up on survivors then transition for a free m1, it'd be like playing Wraith, but with Spirit limitations and no speed to compensate.
The transition to the boiler room would have to kick the player off to another plane, like the last Halloween event did with the tornados. It's an interesting idea, but the problem for this is the bots for the killers have to be decent, but also not too strong, and defining that would be tough. It's also busted if Freddy doesn't have to physically catch the survivor, the player automatically losing a hook stage as a result of Freddy just putting them asleep and following/zoning them off adrenaline vials... or near useless if he does have to catch them, as 60s is a loooong time to wait out for something quite likely to give minimal value.
There are some really cool ideas here though that do feed thought and potential other ideas, so good job 🤘😁🤘
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@Marc_123 said:
Did the necessary to get the rewards.
The eyes and the candelabras look cool.
But the mode… i don´t know. Feels a bit strange this time. And Dredge Nightfall in this is just ridiculous.
I see people say this a lot... as a console player I barely see a difference, I cant see anything regardless... Light's Out is just perma Dredge xD
Looking at the last one... sure in Nightfall I lose my periphery, but even in the day I can only see about 10m in front of me compared to Nightfalls 8m... so to me there is basically no difference... 😅
I've actually done better against Dredge than most killers cause basically nothing changes xD
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As a side note please make this change...
Kyto nailed it, and it would feel so much nicer...
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@merri1400 said:
I wasn't trying to be rude or anything, I just don't know if I would want it to take up a perk slot when there's already only 4.
All good friend, if it's that you feel something like this does not offer enough value to be a perk, that's a fair enough argument.
Personally, it's something that has always irked me about Mori's, they are offerings that if we're wanting maximum value, you should take a Memento Mori every single time as killer, because (outside of a specific map where your building is especially strong) being able to execute a survivor instead of risk a possible save is objectively the strongest offering a killer can take...
I'm of the opinion that offerings by and large shouldn't drastically alter gameplay, which seems to be a sentiment shared by the general trend of offerings largely becoming irrelevant. I mean think of how many pointless/nerfed to near useless offerings there are now? The vast majority of them don't really acheive anything, and those that do tend to be problematic, such as hook spacing and luck offerings.
So I'd be more in favour of the advantage of Mori's being moved to an actual perk, with some additional bonus to give it value.
Who knows? Maybe we start seeing more Mori perks now that Mori isn't something immediately available via Offerings.
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@merri1400 said:
Respectfully no, we should not have to take up a perk slot to use a mori
With all due respect, with the Finisher Mori change, you don't, you get it basekit. I can use the same argument to say "I shouldn't have to take an offering to have a Mori, it should be available to all players without having to farm one out of the bloodweb".
This perk gives you 2 benefits. Ensures a guaranteed kill on a death hook survivor and makes it harder for survivors to time flashlight saves and pallet saves.
Objections are fine, encouraged even, as it helps inform the debate and pushes towards a compromise, or even complete changes of opinion… but just saying "No" isn't particularly helpful.
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@Dream_Whisper said:
It has gone down to the point, that me a killer player main (with a fair share of survivor experiences), I dislike playing as and agaisnt Skull Merchant in general. Her anti looping isn't anything significant if Survivors hold W the entire game, her what used to be most boring yet strongest ability to gen defense and hold game sort of hostage, especially agaisnt the best survivors players make her unfun for either side... and the worst part, I personally do not like the background story or even the name of the killer. She literally doesn't sell skulls at all, and how is that horrifying for appearance and overall killer design.
If anything, I would scrap the entire killer and rework her complete with a more accurate and intimidating name; like The Poacher or The Merchant (alone, without the skulls). Part of me feels like the drone should not be stationary and should be allow to track survivors by following them when pick up by its scanners, and should apply a debuffs of some kind, especially in chase. My inspiration is inspired by the official trailer, in which the Drones were moving around and tracking and following two survivors. It would be great way to punished survivors whom make alot of noise by running within its detection range but rewards stealth by crouching or standing still. The drones do not need to be summon and should be constantly patrol the map until they find any survivors. It should be able to hit a survivors automatically, every 30 seconds or more or less every time they make too much noises, it stacks debuffs like hindrance, exhaustion, obliviou, etc. Until they get injured and down. If a survivor get close enough to a drone, they can manually try to disarm it; but it takes some time to render the drone inoperable for a good brief period of time or until the Killer finds their disable drone to reactivate it quickly with the controll. Survivors making noise, while being tracked drone will have killer instinct be proc to eventually be fully revealed with aura reading with the killer is close or in chase. Stunned the killer with a pallet or locker or any perk/item that stun the killer, with a drone on their back could temporarily disabled the drone for a brief couple of seconds. It rewards risky plays in going for stuns, yet more rewarding benefits in letting your drone freely patrol the map and spot any careless survivors making to much noises. Slow down the pace of the game
Could I interest you in a Lore rewrite?
@UndeddJester said:
Hiyo all!
Sorry to necro, but for anyone who may be interested, I took some feedback from a few kind individuals and made a few additional addendums.
It mostly reads the same but adds in a few extra details here and there, and a little more cleaning up.
I may do a version 3 at some point where I try to chop it down, though truthfully it's a little hard to gut out any chaff, as there isn't really anywhere I myself would want to slice... if anyone fancies the role of editor and feels they can be ruthless enough, feel free to maybe a copy and have at it!
Otherwise, hope it is an entertaining read at the least😁🤘
Cheers!
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mVKuhuzu27VEXOYTmnsWI75IK6ontmhiwbjqTYE9y74/edit?usp=drivesdk
The self-made millionaire Adriana Imai came from a humble home in Fortaleza, Brazil. Her father, Seita, moved to Brazil as a young man, hoping to see a side of the world completely different from his hometown in Hokkaido. Though working in menial jobs to fund his life there, he was a talented illustrator, spending most of his spare time designing colourful characters and worlds, drawing inspiration from the unique culture surrounding him.
While sketching patrons of a local jazz club, his work was noticed by the elegant Belinda. Introducing herself as the owner, she expressed great delight and interest in his unique style and talent, and following a brief discussion, she commissioned him to design a new logo for her establishment. What began as a business partnership soon became a romantic one, and within a couple of years, baby Adriana was born.
Growing up in a house full of art and music honed a brilliant mind, and young Adriana excelled in all areas of academia. Her success led to an incredible level of dedication to her studies, and she developed a near obsession with perfection; always striving to score at the top of every class. Over time this morphed into an extremely competitive and ambitious streak, where she would frequently become quick to anger and intolerant of anyone who threatened her standing. Before long it was no longer enough to be the best student, she had to be undisputed, and prove she was better than her peers in every aspect. She had numerous altercations with various rivals throughout her years there, as well as a few more serious incidents that required intervention and disciplinary action from the school…
Neither parent was particularly concerned however; Adriana’s mother was far more interested in continuing to push her success in her studies, while her father would instead excitedly share his work and passion with her. Despite working long hours at a canning facility and only writing his manga in his spare time, every night he would share his wild and highly imaginative illustrations with his daughter, challenging her and even using her own ideas in his work. He even used her likeness for Adi Valente, a young girl who saved and protected the weak with her quirky robot companion.
By middle school, Adriana's exceptional grades had caught the attention of a very prestigious private school who began courting Adriana's parents with promises to help her reach her potential. Both parents were immensely proud and keen to push her further; Belinda drew what additional funds from the jazz bar she could to cover the expenses, but still more funds were needed. Seita spoke to publishers about his unpublished manuscripts, though as an unknown name in the burgeoning Brazilian manga scene, it was hard to broker a deal. In the end, he managed to find a small local publisher willing to carry Adi Valente, though he had to settle for a less favourable agreement.
Initially, the funds were managable; however, as the popularity of Adi Valente grew, the demand and workload mounted, and trying to keep up with the series while working a full time job was simply not tenable. Taking the gamble on Adi Valente's success, Seita left the canning facility to work on Adi Valente full time, giving him more time to develop and illustrate his series. While it was certainly making him more money, the small publishing company was largely leaving the entire operation of producing the manga to Seita single-handed. His work consumed all of his time; inhuman hours, with no breaks or holiday, and often unable to spend any time with his daughter. The young Adriana watched on as her father toiled endlessly, seeing his once infectious smile and passion for his art dissolve into bitterness and resentment... all just to line someone else's pockets.
In her final semester at the private school, Seita had reached a breaking point and demanded the royalties he should be owed for his work, refusing to write more until he was paid properly. The publishing company however rejected his demands, and after a strong verbal conflict, they tallied their assets and concluded it was more profitable short term to liquidate the company, sell off their IPs, and go into administration to avoid paying Seita. It quickly became apparent the Imai family were no longer able to afford the mounting expenses, and despite being top of the class, Adriana had to be pulled out of the elite academy, and forced to endure the embaressment of being denied her diploma. Belinda tried to secure her a place to finish her graduation at another school, but Adriana angrily rejected every single offer. She watched on in horror as her academic rivals claimed their diplomas, along with numerous accompanying awards and accolades... Her awards. Seeing their success sickened her deeply and an unbridled hatred and resentment bubbled within her, spilling over to the school faculty, as well as the publishers that cost her father so dearly… She couldn't help but imagine all the ways their lives could and should be torn down…
Seita blamed himself for costing Adriana her future and tormented himself endlessly for plunging his family into hardship. The anger at his former employer mixed with his enduring sense of shame overwhelmed him, feeding his anxious thoughts and plunging him into depression. He tried to start anew with a new manga, but his art became a place to pour his darker thoughts into; a grim story of blood and vengeance. The manga followed a highly competent female assassin with a bladed mechanical arm who used remote controlled drones to survey and track her targets. Betrayed by her employer and after a failed attempt on her life, the story saw her track, hunt, and brutally gut the members of her former benefactor's organisation, affixing the skulls and bones of the weak to her drones as she carved through their ranks. He used darker imagery than he ever had before, and as he drew, he would subconsciously emote, his face mirroring the sinister intent he was inking onto the page... His wife Belinda expressed concern that his normally beautiful and flowing art now looked like a twisted and nightmarish fog... a dark dream. He took the name. Despite now having some notoriety in the industry, the tone of this new manga heavily clashed with his previous work, and he was unable to find a publisher willing to gamble on this new darker series.
Unable to sell Sonhadores Sombrios: O Mercador da Caveira, the family became solely reliant on Belinda’s income, but it was clear that her takings from the jazz club alone could not also sustain the home and family they had built. Facing mounting debt, Seita continued trying to get his work published, but as time drew on, his resentment and shame grew. He frequently cursed his former employer and his own foolishness before finally, he disappeared from the family home, the revolver he kept in his desk gone with him. A missing persons report was filed, but after a rather lacklustre investigation, and despite no body ever being found, the police unofficially concluded it was likely a suicide and the case was left to run cold.
Adriana did not take the loss of her father well, not aided by her mother being inconsolable, unable to work and refusing to accept Seita was gone. With their debts ever mounting, Adriana was never afforded the time to properly grieve and she set upon trying to find a way to keep her mother and her fathers home. She quickly found success however creating a website dedicated to the world of Brazilian manga in honour of her father, capitalising on the mediums ever growing popularity in South America. Seeing the obvious weak link in the manga development cycle, she allowed fan produced manga to be submitted with a rather loose piracy policy, and she used some smart advertising strategies to draw in large numbers of users and advertising revenue quickly. Before long, she had built a well-known brand in the ever growing Brazilian manga scene, producing a steady income stream. Despite her success, the website served as a constant reminder of her missing father, and wore on her constantly. Every time she tried to upload his manga to share his talent, she would instead pine over the pages of Sonhadores Sombrios, studying the intricacies of each panel, never able bring herself to submit the work and returning the manuscripts back to their drawer under lock and key. Still, the website grew exponentially, and the second she got an offer, she sold the site and never looked back.
Seeing the money she'd managed to make from selling the business, Adriana saw a new path ahead of her and turned her meticulous mind to studying investment and economics using any and all resources she could find in the Internet age. Despite being entirely self-taught, her keen intuition and uncanny ability to read people and the market saw her rapidly turn over small investments for unusually profitable returns. By the age of 18, without even a high school degree, she had already become a self-made millionaire. As stories of this business wunderkind spread across Brazil, her investments grew more and more brazen, and she started looking towards making profit on the back of turning businesses.
Her methods were ruthless; she blatantly ignored the people affected by her trades and looked over the losses she inflicted on others in each transaction with an indifferent disdain and contempt. Before long, she had the kind of money that allowed her to completely buy out small companies—companies that she would gut, replace with non-union workers, and sell at a profit. By her mid-20s, she was regularly flipping even well established businesses and corporations, and had built up a significant fortune, as well as a long list of enemies... Adriana didn't care. She saw the business world as uncaring and merciless, a place where the strong devour the weak. It had chewed up and spat out her father, and she had sworn she would never be on the losing side ever again.
Before long however her notoriety began to catch up with her, and while weaving her fingers into the early stages of acquiring (and slowly dismantling) a large real estate firm, she was being threatened with legal action and even receiving death threats from former business partners and employees. The more of the business she acquired, the worse the threats got, and Adriana became more and more paranoid. She fitted sensors and security cameras all around her home and obsessed over every detail of the system, constantly tweaking and adjusting the cameras and sensors to minimise and cover any dead zones. Before long, the system had become more and more sophisticated, and she had even replaced the static cameras with mobile drones, mounted with sensors, to create a near impenetrable web of detection... All the while, she continued her ruthless expunging of the business, trading from the safety of her home...
It would turn out that her paranoia was well founded... As the deal to acquire a big stake of the firm was coming to fruition, one that would make the full acquisition of the business a mere formality, her drones fired an alert to her radar, revealing 2 black clad individuals trying to break in. Adriana stared wide eyed at the drones camera feed, knowing the danger she was in… However instead of fear, Adriana felt a sensation she didn't expect... The room seemed to darken around her, almost as if shadows were creeping across the walls, but at the same time her sight and senses were sharper than ever; she was calm and ready, almost a little excited. She carefully removed her pistol from her desk, the same model owned by her father years before, and waited. As the two intruders snuck through her home, unaware of the silent observers tracking their every movement towards her main office, Adriana watched their locations intently on her remote sensor.
Reaching the doors and spying her through the keyhole to her office, the two intruders burst through the door together and raised their silenced weapons toward Adriana sat in the office chair. Without hesitation, they unloaded their magazines, shredding the figure before them to ribbons. Their silencers radiated smoke as they dropped their magazines and grabbed a second set from their belts ready to reload, as the chair creaked round to face them... only to reveal a shattered and broken mannequin sporting a wig and Adriana's clothes. At that moment, Adriana stepped out behind them and fired a single shot to the back of one's head before firing 2 more into the hand and knee cap of the other. Both men fell to the ground, one dead instantly, the other screaming in agony.
She kicked the survivors weapon away, sat on top of him, clasped her hand over his mouth, and calmly demanded the name of his employer. At first, he refused to talk, swearing through gritted teeth and unleashing all kinds of threats. However, as if exhilerated by his defiance, she pulled out a long blade and looked over his body with a wicked smile. A few excruciating minutes later, a bloody Adriana had her list of names...
The incident was never reported to the police, there was no mention of it anywhere, no blood or damage left in the office, and Adriana herself had seemingly vanished into thin air, with the deal left hanging in limbo for days before finally petering out. No one had any idea what became of her, not even her mother, who only knew Adriana had seemingly taken her father's manuscripts. The firm directors set about undoing the work Adriana had done and returning their firm back to normal.
They even had a stroke of luck; a new investor seemed interested in filling the hole left by Adriana, and seemed very keen for a quick and fruitful partnership. The key directors of the board were invited to meet at a conference in Switzerland. A well-spoken gentleman met them in a private room and discussed their business at length, demonstrating a detailed knowledge of the industry and business landscape around their firm. It was extremely impressive, to say the least, and a very favourable deal was quickly struck. With several days left of the conference remaining, the leaders were convinced to take in the beautiful landscape and sights around the Alps, joining a small private tour group.
After the ride to the mountains and a stop off at a cabin midway through the tour, the directors readied to move onto the second half, with a hearty meal and expensive brandy filling their bellies. Something, however, was very wrong; their tour guide was nowhere to be seen, nor their newfound partner. The directors searched the area in confusion before scrambling in their packs, only to find their communication devices were missing... it was then Adriana appeared before them...
She stood with a diamond encrusted mask partially covering her face, a crude mechanical right arm adorning 2 large blades, and a scanner in her left hand. Adriana gave a curtsy, the twisted smile visible even through the face cover, as she introduced herself as “O Mercador da Caveira… The Skull Merchant”. Despite her partially covered features, they recognised her immediately and quickly grasped the danger they were in. Some began trying to bargain for their lives, others looked for a way to escape... only to find themselves contained by the uneven ground and cliff edges. She stepped slowly towards them, mockingly flourishing and asking what they thought of her new look. Refusing to play her game, the lead director demanded she stay back, vainly raising his hands to keep her at bay.
With a contemptuous tsk, Adriana lunged forward, the gears around her shoulder and elbow whirring intensely, and she easily smashed through the man's limbs with bone snapping force before burying her cruel double-bladed mechanical arm deep into his midsection. She paused for a moment to look deep into his eyes, watching his life fading away before giving an almost effortless flick of her wrist, the mechnical arm tearing open his guts and severing his spine. His body slumped heavily to the floor… the rush of emotion and adrenaline in the momentary silence was unlike anything she had ever experienced before. The rest of the party scattered in panicked screams, stumbling into the mountainous terrain... It didn't matter… Every single contingency had already been carefully accounted for. Adriana shuddered with excitement as her drones and radar blinked into life. The hunt was just beginning...
Returning to civilian life and in light of the "tragedy" that had befallen the firm, Adriana effortlessly acquired the remaining seats of the board and sold off the company to the highest bidder. She lamented it was "far too painful" for her to stay on to manage her part in the business. Thus began an unsettling cycle. Numerous larger-than-life CEOs and board members mysteriously gave up their seats in several high-profile companies to new investors from all over the world. Some of them just ‘disappeared’ without a trace, and a new player would suddenly appear to take their place. Authorities tried to track where the money was going, but it was well laundered through different networks each time... completely untraceable.
Despite her precautions however, the interest around her was getting too much, and even scaling back to smaller businesses was still garnering more attention than she wanted. She decided to make one last score before using her substantial fortune to disappear. An aggressive manager of a fireworks company, known for his “survival tours,” would be her last target, right at home in Brazil. Survival tours… a perfect cover.
Just as every time before, her plan was meticulously crafted to ensure she could savour every moment of the hunt uninterrupted. Adriana lured him to a decommissioned airship hangar, far from any local populace. The hunt started at dawn and went the distance. Each hunt had seen her iterate, upgrade and modify the designs of her weapons and equipment, yet even so, he had managed to evade her numerous times with her still tracking him well into the evening... A survival tour indeed, but he was wounded from their last altercation; it was now only a matter of time.
One of her drones chirped into life, and she spotted her quarry once more; whimpering and straining at his limit, exhausted and barely able to crawl. She used the drones to track his desperate shuffling to a dead end and watched as the man collapsed to the floor. She calmly pulled on the mechanical arm, preparing to finish him, but as she adjusted her weapon, a pair of kites suddenly appeared on the drones' camera moments before the feed sputtered and died. Her face hardened... then her eyes widened in disbelief as she slammed her laptop shut and charged to where the drone had crashed. There, she found her prey reaching out to someone in the growing dark for help.
Impossible! Witnesses! Not part of the plan!
Without a second to lose, she plunged her twinned blade through his stomach and wrenched it free, exposing meat, bone, and a dying heart. The vitiated body staggered left and right, sending a shower of red over the green foliage. As her victim collapsed with a thud, she turned to the young witnesses watching on in horror. With a sneer, she flicked her blade and whispered, "Wrong place, wrong time". The youths broke into a sprint, and she eagerly gave chase, her blades thirsting for more blood... she began to wonder if she could really leave this life behind when it was done....
The lush green of the trees melted into a thick black fog. Real life warped into something like the dark imagery her father used in the pages of O Mercador da Caveira. Visions of death and pain filled her mind... the same rush of her first hunt ran through her body, more intense than ever... a sick grin crept across her face as she gave herself to the fog, ready to begin this new chapter in her life…
The way she is presented I feel leads into a highly functional, successful and attractive psychopath like archetype. The likes of Ted Bundy for example were not the ugly societal reject people normally expect psychopaths to be, and that actually helped them stay under the radar to keep killing...
So from that lens, I rather like the idea of and see potential in the Skull Merchant.
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@Skillfulstone said:
The idea of Finisher Mori as a whole is simply unhealthy.
By hiding the Mori animation behind a 4k, it automatically incentivizes people to slug for the 4k...and we all know how fun and riveting it is.
Not to mention it also indirectly encourages proxy-camping/tunnelling, reduce Killer variety and perk variety in order to get that juicy animation (which I guarantee will get old really quick and will be met with more scorn than a normal 4k, it would be a matter of time before Mori animations are seen as a form of BM like "let me rub my victory in your face a bit longer with this cutscene") since when Survivors start to get better, weaker/slower/M1 Killers tend to struggle more and need to play more aggressively to compete.
Hiding Mori behind 4k is, in my opinion, only going to make people hate those animations and will make the game even less casual/newcomer-friendly than it already is.
There's a reason why the dreadful basekit Unbreakable was attempted alongside the Finisher Mori PTB: otherwise every single games would just end in a slugfest. Hell, during that PTB there were more bleedout games than normal even though people could get up because Killers wanted that animation after tunnelling the first 2 Survivors.
I have disagree with that assessment, a lot of that seems a bit of stretch and/or is subject to opinion.
Slugging for the 4k is its own unique problem, and is prevalent for anyone who want to win... and that is true regardless of whether the finisher mori system is in place or not. There is nothing wrong with encouraging the killer side to win, and if slugging for the 4k is a problem in the goal of winning, that should be addressed on its own. The Finisher Mori system is no different to slugging with Cypress and Memento Mori's equipped... and no one has ever said before "Cypress Mori is unhealthy cause it incentivises slugging for the 4k".
In a similar vein you can't honestly condemn the Finisher mori system for tunneling and camping becoming more prevalent... that is not a causal relationship. I can just as easily say it actually hinders camping and tunneling, cause if someone wanted a mori on the old system they could take the iri or green mori, and tunnel a player hard (even through all their anti-tunnel perks) and get their mori, throwing the rest of the match since they got what they wanted. Memento Mori is worse, cause they can then camp and tunnel the remaining 3 players as well and keep doing it. I'm deliberately front loading the parameters of my argument, so you can see how this is a bad faith argument, and in the same vein saying "animation = desire to win = more camping/tunneling" is similarly a bad faith argument.
Regarding the encouraging certain characters, Mori's are a more interesting loss and character unique thing across our 35 killers... having unique kill animations I would argue incentivises playing different killers more, especially if they ever grant unique Mori's in the shop... in fact having something more thematically satisfying is more likely to drag people away from being uber competitive and taking the best killer, on the grounds of "Man... I love Deathslingers new mori, its absolute awesome! I might play him more often!"
Regarding BM, the Finisher Mori doesn't change anything about BM, if a player wants to annoy you, they will do so with or without it. I also don't consider the animation rubbing it in someone's face. Most of the time when you're the last player left and caught Survivors will make a futile run to last as long as they can... or they will plead for mercy... both of which end in being picked up and not bothering to wiggle, waiting to be put on hook. I'd much prefer a mori cap off the game than just sit waiting to be hooked, and both take approximately the same time, do no big deal.
I also wouldn't call Mori's hidden, there are still mori perks, such as Devour Hope, Rancor, and you can just as easily say its more newcomer friendly, as it's something available to all players regardless of level without the need to farm a Mori out of the bloodweb.
If you are referring to survivors hating moris... do please explain why it's any different to being hooked? As a horror fan myself (which is what this game is meant to be btw), I think it's much cooler for the final survivor to die to a mori... Tbh, it actually makes slugging for the 4k less annoying, as it means me as the slugged third player, gets to have the mori instead, like I was the last character. Hating the mori animation is subjective... someone like myself would consider getting the mori a badge of honour, or at the very least reacting with "well... at least I got the Mori...".
Sorry to just take the opposing stance on every point you made, I wasn't intending as such...but I just genuinely disagree with your premise 😅
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@Skillfulstone said:
There's two rather simple ways to get around DS if it's bothering you that much.
1: Don't tunnel, I know it might be a foreign concept but it's possible and even encouraged by the community despite BHVR apparently wanting it if their obsession with the Finisher Mori is any indication. The chances of slurs and threats are reduced significantly when not tunneling.
2: If they try to weaponize it then either down them or let them go. They can't do gens or heal if they want to keep their DS so it's the same as being in a 3v1 for 60 seconds.
As an aside... how does Finisher Mori remotely support tunneling in any way? I don't understand that statement at all... 🤔🤔🤔🤔
Edit: nevermind, found your response in another thread.
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@WarCorrespondent said:
This isn't her new direction, they're clipping her wings until her larger reworkin of her power.
Don't get attached, its meant to discourage you from playing her until later.This thread was supposed to be about theorising what her new direction could be.... Y'know since everyone talks about reworking her, but doesn't seem to have anything to say in regards to what that rework should look like.
I feel like Skull Merchant should be a stealthy trap killer myself; hitting her anti-loop power somewhat in exchange for giving her better means of setting up traps to catch survivors would be my direction.
Is either this, where I explore what parts of the changes might be interesting and try and get some discussion going on where to go with Skull Merchant... or I create a thread where I just complain about it.
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I actually run this combo myself already as one of my fun builds with Botany Knowledge to get my 150% heal, and yes you are right, 6.4s. I referred to this as the non scummy FTP+Buckle Up buold, cause it is hard to pull off.
You have to wait for the prompt each time which can take up to about half a second to appear, and the time to run up is gonna be at least a second, probably 2 most of the time... you're not gonna be actually sniffing the survivors neck... it's just not realistic.
If the survivor has recovered about 40% of their health bar, or you are left alone for about 2 seconds to heal, yes you can get the effect, and I have had some very rare occasions where that has been uber clutch... but I'm talking about 1 in 60 games...
The survivor in most scenarios is more likely to get downed for free than make a raw save under the killers nose... its mostly been effective I find when a killer is trying to slug at end game and you're all rushing for gate... you can sneak a heal then where it is too late to stop them.
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Takes a little getting used to, but is a damned laugh... I threw my tea on the floor after a jump scare from Alien while watching in spectator mode...
8/10 would brown my pants again.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798787#Comment_3798787
it does hide blood pools. maybe the perk should also hide scratch marks as well. Iron will, hide scratch marks and blood pool for 60 second can be direct competitor to iron will. I think iron will would still be popular because it is easier to use and doesn't have cumbersome risks. currently the numbers just are not good enough.
Scratch Marks...
Although... might be a bit for a giveaway if scratch marks suddenly vanish 😅
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798593#Comment_3798593
iron will cannot be combined with exhaustion perks but this perk can be combined with exhaustion perks and has synergy with head-on. the problem is that reward is too low. 10-15 second was irrelevant and 30 second is not enough. at 60 seconds, i can see player using it with head-on as alternative iron will. it is more expensive and has somewhat more risk because your entering locks mid-chase but it has potencial synergy.
Yeah fair point… that was normally how I used it as part of a Quick and Quiet, Head On build… Prior to the Iron Will buff, Lucky Star let you hide your grunts of pain for a better chance of pulling off Head On, but that utility already got kinda subverted by Iron WIll being 100% again. Now if you want head On, Iron WIll will probably serve you better for most of the game, since it still works after you've pulled it off. It does have a slight advantage in the regards to the fact it's less obvious it's in play, since it's ONLY when you go into a locker… but you're still on a crap shoot of if the killer opens that locker of not….
So… without that primary 100% locker silence purpose, it's only remaining use was as a means of hiding in a locker while exhausted, which still needs Q&Q to be remotely viable, and even then is rarely wise, since killers will often sniff you out anyway…. but it was still a decent perk, because you got the auras as well, so it was still useful for things like Flashbang, or as part of a build utilising Inner Strength or something similar to find and help an ally in chase efficiently…
You could even use is as a perk that you can trigger to find an ally to heal you if you got separated on unhook or after a successful killer dodge via a locker… the value of Lucky Star wasn't any individual effect, it was the culmination of a lot of little effects that gave is a surprising amount of versatility. With the auras gone, now it is nowhere near as versatile, and now is in direct competition with Iron Will… and most of the time, it falls short….
The one time it is more useful now is if you run Lucky Break, Overcome, Quick and Quiet and hop into a locker, which it could do before… and even that is no longer as good, because you can't then use the auras to find someone to heal you to keep/charge up Lucky Break…
I'd prefer if Lucky Star either kept it's auras…
OR
It got a more unique identity as THE locker perk. If your slow locker entry was made 75% faster, and/or had a 24m aura read on lockers, that would be a nice change… that would actually help it stand out vs. Iron Will and also see its usage considered for things like Flashbang, Head On, Inner Strength, Built To Last, where the survivor has several small locker related effects that make the usage of these perks easier/smoother. -
Definitely needs some kind of identity to compensate. I rather like the aura read, but without it, it's just a Pay To Have A Crap Version of Iron Will.
If it got something to really set it apart, like slow locker entry speed increased by 75%, and/or could see the aura of lockers within 24m, that would give it something unique, but right now, it's just a sub-par version of other perks.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797814#Comment_3797814
But I still suck it up and utilize what I know to counter him… …But then I get thrown into a game where people decide "this is boring" and give up, instead of taking a challenge head on and actually trying to learn HOW to counter a situation.
Hey. Guess what. I do the same.
For some reason people have gotten this idea in their head that if someone dislikes a Killer that they automatically "just go next" when in reality not everyone does that, if you went through my post history, youd know that I think people who do it are beyond cringe.
I even stated that I know how to counter her, and I find her to around average to weak in terms of strength, I said this in my original comment. I also hold the opinion that her power is boring and uninspired, and I hold this idea since I thought the Skull Merchant would be so much more than what they ended up being.
That's great, so just because you find a playstyle boring, that means that people who enjoy them just dont matter?
When 3-Gen Skull Merchant was a thing, people would use a similar argument to defend 3- Gen Skull Merchant. Funny thing is, there are people who did enjoy running in circles for literal hours just defending Generators, but that got removed, what about them...
Does a character having playstyles that people like quantify them remaining the same even if it is unhealthy for the general playerbase?
I liked Blight's Hug-Tech, I found it fun to use and fun to against, but it got removed… even though I liked it a lot. While I had the capacity to counter it, a majority of the playerbase did not… and while I still dislike that it is gone, I have the understand of WHY it was changed, and Ive come to accept it as it is.
DBD, at its core, is a casual game, BHVR is always going to cater to the casual audience, and if BHVR is seeing that they are struggling too much, they are going to changes things to address that.
Which brings me back to the question above. And I dont ask this to drag you down, moreso because I was insight into your stance, think of it as the modern DBD "Trolley Problem".
None of this is to say your opinions dont matter. Im just voicing my opinions, and regardless of what I say, it should not take away from your opinion. I implore all players to make their feelings known about the game, since being vocal can lead to positive change, if you love Skull Merchant's design, I encourage you to make Forums Posts and spread your opinion around about the PTB changes.
You make a very fair and reasoned argument, but the problem with posting about Skull Merchant is every single time it gets derailed by "just delete her" or "just redesign her".
I myself and several other players have tried numerous times to get some kind of discussion going around Skull Merchant, and every time discussions just become the same parroted responses that everyone gives with no effort at all put into "how" to address her problems.
PixelBush made numerous attempts on Youtube to address her issues, I didn't agree with everything he said myself, but I engaged in the discussion... and his videos were shot down the same way, "just redesign her".
"Redesign her"... OK great... Nobody says how she should be redesigned, or even what "redesign" even means.
- What is she not doing that she should be doing instead?
- What should drones do if they aren't gonna injure/hinder survivors? Just revealing a survivor isn't enough.
- What alternatives are there to integrate a character who has drones to scan survivors and reveal their location?
- Should we abandon the concept entirely and not even have drones? That's a bad answer... If we don't have drones, why even call her the Skull Merchant any more? Just make a new killer and delete her...
All discussion around her is useless, because I've always ended up talking to the same 2 people, and everyone else just regurgitates the same useless asinine points...
Even now I'm seeing posts that basically amount to "I'm glad she's dead, and screw anyone who put time and effort into her". Again, no attempt to point to a positive direction or way to improve her whatsoever.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
Keep this up and they aren't going to even bother doing skins - just not worth the drama and stress.
I'm LGBT. We don't need "equal representation" in every video game in existence. BHVR is plenty supportive of the LGBT community. It's unrealistic to expect to make one of each kind of possible representation. These things take man hours, time, and money. We're getting to the point that we're going to start demanding game companies to make 50x the amount of skins\flags to be "represented" when they only have it in the budget to make 1.
Just chill - it's a video game. Enjoy what comes our way. No one realistically cares if a character is straight\bi\black\white\good at calculus\prefers pineapple on their pizza. They aren't real. It's just words in a Bio. David isn't really gay - in fact - he doesn't actually exist. Dwight isn't really straight - he too does not exist. At the end of the day, whatever something says in a bio accomplishes absolutely nothing. It has no gameplay affect - it's just fluff. Heck, did you know that Lambert in the original Alien film is trans (MtF)? Probably not - because it doesn't even matter.
I actually didn't know that... wow learn something new.
Reminds me of a character from Dirty Bomb who was lesbian named Nader. You wouldn't know she was lesbian unless you took the time to read her character bio and it was one line talking about the tensions her going back to mercenary life caused between her and her partner... it used the word "wife" and otherwise read exactly the same.
That was it... no other mention of her sexuality anywhere else within the game... I think subtle things like this are the best way to do LGBTQ (or any diverse) characters, where they are treated like everyone else and no big deal is made out of it.... you know... like they're a normal people...
It's a much better approach than heavy handedly trying to throw it in people's face at every turn. Smushing a characters diversity in people's face tends to make a character feel forced, fake, token, and that their whole personality is obnoxiously defined by that one trait, which often leads to an equally obnoxious response…
People don't tend to like an obvious immersion breaking cariacature of a character thrown in with bells ans whistles to push a political statement, rather than someone who is just a person who has a trait hidden away you wouldn't know about unless you took the time to really look/get to know the character. Adam for example isn't "the black male OC", he is a hard working straight laced teacher who just so happens to be black... proper characterisation makes a big difference.
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I've heard many people say redesign her from the ground up often... but what does that even mean? It's such a non-descript and vague statement.
Skull Merchant is a killer who has drones that monitor an atea that survivors need to sneak past or disable, otherwise be revealed to the killer. That is her concept.
The problem is just revealing your location doesn't really do anything on its own... there needs to be some kind of tangible threat from being scanned as well... this is why we had exposed/a free injury, boosts of speed and hindered after so many scans. Survivors need to have a reason to avoid her beams, otherwise she has no power. I acknowledge this point has issues, but they are issues we can try and address...
When we say redesign, does that mean abandon the whole concept? Have no drones at all? Then it isn't Skull Merchant... no point naming the killer Skull Merchant if you're not gonna have skulls mounted on drones, might as well make a whole new killer concept rather than trying to shoe horn Skull Merchant onto it.
I've heard people say have the drones follow survivors... again just revealing location is useless as a power if Skull Mechant herself is just an m1 killer with nothing else going for her. Does the drone attack the survivor? Then we just have the less effective version of Knight.
Skull Merchant was the good trap killer. She perhaps got too much for too little effort, fair statement, the change to remove 1 of the scan lines would resolve a lot of the free power she gets... she now actually needs to work for it... but with the othwr changes makimg the reward she gets from doing basically nom existant, and the fact survivors can easily see her solo scan lines to never get hit by them... she now doesn't do anything....
More than happy to hear and debate on suggestions for this redesign, but to vaguely say "redesign her" is useless. Redesign her into what? What is the concept that Skull Merchant should be occupying that she isn't doing already?
I ask because I honestly believe no matter what you "redesign" her into, if a drone exists in her kit and shes called Skull Merchant, people will hate on her anyway and not even be able to say why, no matter how much you change her.
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She was an m1 killer that had a potent mix of Clown's anti loop speed changes and Trapper's loop lockdown gameplay, and what made her strong is she could achieve what those killers achieved with a fraction of the effort...
Despite that, she was not all that strong, and was certainly beatable for a team that actually tried...
Now she is still a mix of Trapper and Clown, but is a sub-par version of both.... needless to say, being a subpar Trapper/Clown is a very sad place to be...
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Be wary of candles... they are secretly spying on you:
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Yikes... I admit she needed something doing to her...
However Art using the chainsaw in the Terrifier was less brutal than this... guess survivors finally got what they wanted huh? 💀💀💀💀
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@ays12151 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796934#Comment_3796934
Carburetor Tunning Guide is fixed since Patch 7.1.0. They added specific code for this Add-On, but they didn't touch general acceleration code. This Add-On applies 0.3 seconds acceleration penalty (from 1.5 seconds to 1.8 seconds).
Before 8.0.0 Bubba Buff - The Beast's Marks was increasing movement speed from 5.29 m/s to ~5.45 m/s (aka 136.21%).With The Beast's Marks he could start at 88.83% movement speed and end at 136.21% so he still needed to accelerate 47.37% movement speed in 1.2 seconds. At base kit he needed to accelerate 46% movement speed in 1.2 seconds so speed Add-On didn't make difference if we talk about acceleration.
I recommend to check Bubba's History on Wiki.
Wait, the 3% on Beast's Mark's is a multiplier for Bubba's max chainsaw movement speed!?
God damn BHVR, just when I thought I'd gotten used to your movement speed percentages, you sweep the leg again xD
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796950#Comment_3796950
I wouldn't worry about slugging.
If I get full slug even now, I can just wait for survivor to try self-unhooking, but even if they do, then the moment they touch survivor I can down them before they pick them up.
It doesn't really change the situation much in my opinion.
I wouldn't mind that buff much for slippery meat tho.
Being completely unable to attempt to unhook yourself without a perk means the game must end when all survivors are hooked/dead… otherwise we're locked in till the timer goes down…
Already happens with second stage, can be changed for first stage too unless game detects active perk for it.
What happens to this version of Slippery Meat, Wicked and Deliverance?
Game should be able to track if such perk is active, no?
However if we do allow unhook attempts while a survivor is still stage 1 and Wicked, Deli and Slippery Meat are in play, does the killer get made aware in this scenario by the fact the game doesn't end?
That's true, but you don't know who has it. Also as I said, after group slugging, I usually wait for survivor hit second stage anyway... If they annoyed me
What about slugging for the 4k? With the inability to excuse yourself, Survivors are locked in for 60s plus the time it takes to ######### manually missing skillchecks. The last survivor has to survive this long for a chance at hatch… but there is still slugging for the 4k that trumps that, do we do anything about it?
Wouldn't that be better, so killer has good chance actually hook survivor instead of always slugging?
I can get same effect now with longer timer with slugging, right?
If survivor won't be able to kill themselves, I can simply hook them and have time to find other survivor.
That seems better for everyone than current situation when killers want 4k.
As I think about it more... Slippery Meat allowing an unhook if you're still on first hook as the last player regardless would actually be a nice niche...
The killer knows about Slippery Meat ny the fact the game doesn't end, but you have a genuine last gasp attempt at reaching hatch if you build for it... will still be massively in the killers favour, but someone might pull of something with an unhook at the right time with some combination or Low Profile, Adrenaline, Sprint Burst, Dead Hard, Left Behind, Clairvoyance, Sole Survivor...
That build sounds cool...
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796950#Comment_3796950
I wouldn't worry about slugging.
If I get full slug even now, I can just wait for survivor to try self-unhooking, but even if they do, then the moment they touch survivor I can down them before they pick them up.
It doesn't really change the situation much in my opinion.
I wouldn't mind that buff much for slippery meat tho.
Being completely unable to attempt to unhook yourself without a perk means the game must end when all survivors are hooked/dead… otherwise we're locked in till the timer goes down…
Already happens with second stage, can be changed for first stage too unless game detects active perk for it.
What happens to this version of Slippery Meat, Wicked and Deliverance?
Game should be able to track if such perk is active, no?
However if we do allow unhook attempts while a survivor is still stage 1 and Wicked, Deli and Slippery Meat are in play, does the killer get made aware in this scenario by the fact the game doesn't end?
That's true, but you don't know who has it. Also as I said, after group slugging, I usually wait for survivor hit second stage anyway... If they annoyed me
What about slugging for the 4k? With the inability to excuse yourself, Survivors are locked in for 60s plus the time it takes to ######### manually missing skillchecks. The last survivor has to survive this long for a chance at hatch… but there is still slugging for the 4k that trumps that, do we do anything about it?
Wouldn't that be better, so killer has good chance actually hook survivor instead of always slugging?
I can get same effect now with longer timer with slugging, right?
If survivor won't be able to kill themselves, I can simply hook them and have time to find other survivor.
That seems better for everyone than current situation when killers want 4k.
I suppose yeah, overall things generally become better... the hatch game by itself becomes something easier to balance around… and I'm in agreement that players SoH is the biggest problem the game has right now... so any potential issues pale in comparison...
I suppose another benefit of disabling unhooks without a perk active, in SoloQ you can actually signal to other survivors that you have it.
If I have Deli/Wicked available, I can go to unhook myself and cancel as a indicator "Hey! Don't come for me! I can unhook myself".
Doesn't work vs. proxy camping sadly... but that actually sounds fun? Where you try to do it when the killer isn't looking? Like a sneaky wave... 😅😅😅
Could even be a scenario where you mind game the killer and let them see you have it so they are reluctant to leave you if you know another gen is getting done... that actually sounds pretty cool.
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@VomitMommy said:
I would be fine with 1, simply except you have perk for it.
2. Hell no, you would need to disable it for both sides and that can't end well. DBD would become queue simulator.
3. Survivors DC for ANY reason. They do it in highly questionable situations (about to die in 5 seconds later). You can't fix that.
4. Most likely outcome
I would just increase penalty instead. If you don't want to play, then don't play at all.
Remove self-unhooking unless you have got perk for it and if survivor ignores two skill checks in second phase they get replaced by a bot.
Implement some reasonable feature for both sides, so they are free to give up in hopeless situation. (Combination of gens, hooks, dead survivors, survivors on ground, timer) Survivor gets replaced by a bot and game ends for now if killer gives up.(Game ends when all survivors become bots)
Preventing self unhook attempts Is an interesting thought, but it does come with complications…. if self unhooks were removed entirely without a perk… I would recommend Slippery Meat to be buffed accordingly to make slugging less appealing, since just the raw 6 attempts with a crap chance to succeed is a dead perk (more than it already is):
Slippery Meat
In the most dire of situations, desperation can lead to a glimmer of hope…
When all other survivors are either in the Dying State, hooked or already dead, Slippery Meat activates:
- Grants the ability to self unhook yourself
Slippery Meat is not available during the second Hook Stage or if you are hooked as the last living Survivor in the Trial, regardless of your Hook Stage then.
Though it does raise a few questions/thoughts:
- Being completely unable to attempt to unhook yourself without a perk means the game must end when all survivors are hooked/dead… otherwise we're locked in till the timer goes down…
- What happens to this version of Slippery Meat, Wicked and Deliverance? Do we not get to self unhook as the last hooked survivor regardless of stage 1 or stage 2 on all others survivors? We're already seeing a surge in slugging then taking 4 hooks, we may need to allow attempts while people have a perk active…
- However if we do allow unhook attempts while a survivor is still stage 1 and Wicked, Deli and Slippery Meat are in play, does the killer get made aware in this scenario by the fact the game doesn't end?
- If we're replacing with a bot if no skillchecks are attempted in stage 2, what about giving up for hatch? Do I have to deliberately miss skillchecks to excuse myself from the trial for hatch?
- What about slugging for the 4k? With the inability to excuse yourself, Survivors are locked in for 60s plus the time it takes to ######### manually missing skillchecks. The last survivor has to survive this long for a chance at hatch… but there is still slugging for the 4k that trumps that, do we do anything about it?
- If hatch is generally being made much harder to reach as a result of all of the above, should it spawn closed with 2 survivors left alive so the survivor can try and find it? Maybe have it unlockable with a key for 1 and only 1 player so that slugging for the 4k is less viable? Should a key be usable in the dying state?
Quickly becomes complicated the more I think about it ;D
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@ays12151 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795720#Comment_3795720
This acceleration was a thing in patches 4.1.0 - 4.3.0 and it wasn't a problem at all. My posts fixed problem with Carburetor Tuning Guide where the current code just destroyed this Add-On, because it counted 60% from the whole Chainsaw Sweep - 7.5 seconds, because with this Add-On you have like one big charge (60% * 7.5 seconds = 4.5 s acceleration time).
He would be strong Killer in chase that still chase many ways to counterplay. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't become boring Killer to play against like Xeno & Chucky.
Interesting, I started playing way later than that point.
I keep informed on DBD history by talking to older players, watching old streams and reading guides and noting how they've changed over the years... but I've not really seen much of Bubba in these history dives, so I've never known Bubba's gameplay during that time...
Based on my experience with Bubba, acceleration makes a big difference in scoring hits. Prior to his buff, what made Beast Marks so good in my experience with him is the fact it not only raises your to speed from 5.29 to 5.41m/s (I think... the 3% I believe is off the standard 4.0m/s movement speed), but it also means your acceleration is faster, since you obviously have to accelerate quicker to reach a higher speed.
Doing a little maths 60% of 2s is 1.2s, so for each scenario:
- 3.45 to 5.29 is an acceleration of 1.5333m/s²
- 3.45 to 5.41 with BM gives 1.6333m/s²
- 3.55 to 5.45 in 0.5s gives 3.8m/s²
On top of the fact you're already moving faster and the start and end... if BM is considered good on old Bubba at 1.6333m/s², 3.8m/s² is more than double that...
I love Bubba, and think he definitely needs some attention... but this set of numbers looks like a hand grenade to me... So while I'm with you I spirit, these numbers look very dangerous to me...
After crunching a lot of numbers, making his time to reach max speed 50% of the sweep duration instead 60% makes him like he was before, but without the acceleration drop caused by chilli's, and seems much more reasonable... though this solution still makes BM ones of his best add-ons, and doesn't fix CTG…
So personally I'd be much more in favour of locking his acceleration at 1.6333m/s² regardless of max speed and add-ons, then we can look at fixing everything else.
But if I'm wrong on anything, do please tell me 😅
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EDIT: Nevermind... sadge.
The way OoO is written:
Whenever the Killer reads your Aura Object of Obsession activates for the same duration as their Aura-reading action:
- Reveals the Killer's Aura to you.
This implies that OoO fires off its own killer aura read based on whatever the Aura duration was of the killers perk (or the 3 second effect), thus is an aura reveal in its own right... and by that logic Eyes of Belmont should work with it.
This method of having a trigger for OoO where it fires a single event and setting its duration when the killer reveals an aura makes more sense than maintaining a link for the duration of the aura reveal... so I would guess this is how it works...
I tried this combo and I thought it worked... but now I'm not confident because I didn't actually time it. I didn't notice it not working, although I was running it with Deja Vu for more free gen speed at the time so that might have masked it not working...
I'll try again when I finish work and errands to confirm or deny.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796175#Comment_3796175
My experience in DbD was worse before MMR.
Earning emblems and pips, and more bloodpoints in the process, invariably raised your rank. Once you got to green ranks as killer, you were prone to being matched with rank 1s (who could only match downwards), losing most games, and thereby being unable to progress higher, while also not losing enough pips to derank out of this matchmaking limbo. Average/midling killers were forced into this sweatfest. The monthly reset would then result an about a week of even more sweating as everyone rushed to rank up.
Under MMR, you get the games you deserve. If you sweat, you get sweatier games. If you play chill, you don't get inadvertently catapulted into higher skill brackets just because you play often enough.
MMR makes us obsess, and sweat over something we cannot see.
No it doesn't. Nothing in the game tells you MMR exists.
If you ignored MMR (as intended) and played towards earning emblems and pips (as intended, and the only tangible score the game provides you) then you wouldn't need to sweat all the time, artificially inflate your MMR via cheap and boring tactics, or end up in an MMR bracket far above your actual skill level.
Literally nothing I could add… flawless summary.
I don't know why people obsess about climbing an invisible ladder that does nothing but make your games less fun... Like if you could see your MMR, I would still call it dumb, but could at least understand even if only for the bragging rights, but you don't even get that...
There is literally no reason to hard-core push for higher MMR, the grading system actually contradicts your goals for MMR, as going for pips/emblems tends to decrease your chances of getting a 4k/escaping...
To my mind a lot of people just seem to be making a rod for their own backs... obsess with winning, pair up with SWFs and/or run lame playstyles and perk combos to get big advantages... get mad when they get matched with opponents who do the same 🤷♂️
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Lobby shopping is basically dead now prestige is hidden. Killer gets a chance to change their build if they're being hard countered with items, but that's about it.
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I've seen a lot of Dracula's myself, but barring a few examples of cracked players day 1, they tend to get smashed... myself included.
He is quite tricky to play, and not very prosperous for casual play. He seems quite inaccessible on console, I've not had this much trouble getting going with a killer on console since Deathslinger before all his buffs. Like you can do things, but its very easy to miss... and 1 miss quickly turns into 2, turns into 3, and before you know it you're losing the game.
Hug tech being removed likely means PC players will be not much better off than me and struggle too unless they're cracked.
My evidence is purely anecdotal, but I've not seen more than 2k on Dracula 80% of the time.
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My personal take is in this game, the team that wins is the team that makes the fewest mistakes… but the side whose game it is to lose changes wildly based on the killer play, and is determined by how much of the killer is mechanics vs. mind games…
Survivors have mostly only mind games to play with to keep alive. There is a mechanical skill requirement yes, but that's not the main decider, it's mostly all about out positioning and/or out smarting the other player. The top killers however have mechanics based abilities that if they play perfectly can make hits an m1 killer can never make… but with penalties that slow them down substantially if they do misplay/regularly miss.
Against a basic Killer like Trapper, Pig, Sadako or Myers, if the Survivors make no mistakes, makes every read and plays perfectly, then there is little the killer can do about it to catch them, create pressure and even get a foot in the game, let alone win it…. these killers rely almost exclusively on mind games to put a survivor in a bad position; there is no mechanical skill these killers can call upon to subvert loops and level the playing field if the Survivor never makes a mistake.
Against a mechanics Killer like Huntress, Hillbilly, Blight or Nurse however, even if a survivor makes no mistakes, a sufficiently skilled killer who aims correctly every single time levels the playing field substantially and can score/brute force hits the survivor can't avoid… conversely if these same killers make mistakes with their aim/reads, the game can easily roll away from them. Nurse is the extreme example, because an extremely high skilled Nurse that reaches her maximum potential and never makes a mistake bypasses all windows, all pallets, all mind games and more often than not simply cannot be countered or dodged most of the time…. but a low level Nurse making lots of mistakes, barely does anything, and struggles to even function as a threat.
This is the disparity of Mind Games vs. Mechanics that I feel creates these killer/survivor sided contradicting perspectives… because the mistakes made create vastly different performances across different MMRs…
In high MMR where very few mistakes are made, if both teams are going all out to win, then a Nurse can best even the strongest and most coordinated survivor teams through pure skill, and even the best survivors struggle not to go down fast vs. her… but no matter how skillful a Myers is, he is never gonna match the strongest and most coordinated survivor team, because in his case there is no mechanical ability he can call upon to catch up…. it's the survivors who have to make the mistakes.
In low MMR however where there are mistakes a plenty, if you take Myers and Nurse again against an equally skilled low level team, then Nurse will be making mistakes and missing hits constantly, and as her mistakes matter more, will walk away with maybe 2 hooks (if she's lucky). Myers has a good chance of getting a 4k however, because the chance survivors make a mistake against him are much higher, and his own mistakes are far less impactful due to how much simpler he is relatively to play.
The weak killers are typically very strong at low MMR, while the strongest killers tend to perform badly at low MMR… but in high MMR the weakest killers can't really do much at all, whereas the strongest killers can absolutely decimate. That's how I see it… and to my mind it makes a lot of these discussions of killer sided vs. survivor sided kinda pointless… The swing in performance between mechanical and mind game based killers is just too huge across MMR levels to make a strong argument for it… there is always gonna be some contradiction somewhere for both sides.
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Good for killers, bad for survivors.
Killers: Makes every survivor somewhat effective at looping half sensibly, forcing you to account for their lack of bad plays by having to git gud yourself and actually outplay them.
Survivors: Promotes lazy play styles, ensures you never even try to loop suboptimal tiles, actively hinders your ability to learn maps/spawns, and allows you to switch your brain off instead of try to get better at the game. Should never be ran unless you're at the highest levels and only using it to determine used resources, and at that point, there are probably better perks you can take.
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In regards to this suggestion, it is interesting, but there are a lot of big number buffs there I need to crunch to fully understand the picture… but the initial gut feeling is his acceleration looks pretty cracked in this configuration… I'd be a little worried about him becoming rather oppressive at most loops
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A lot of stuff to unpack there, but the main thing I think Bubba needs is his acceleration to max speed be unlinked from both his chainsaw sweep duration and his max chainsaw sweep speed.... at the moment he's too add-on reliant.
Currently his acceleration is defined as 60% (1.5s) of the chainsaw sweep duration (2.5s), and the difference between his slowest chainsaw rev speed (3.45) and max chainsaw speed (5.35). Back when he was a base line 2s duration, this 60% gave him 1.2s to reach max speed, which was then modified by chilli's.
His issue back then was Chilli's required Beast Marks to function on the longer duration, but if you werent taking Chillis's, BM gave you a faster acceleration and allowed other add-on combos. With chilli's now basekit his longer chainsaw sweep at base makes him slower in catching up to survivors after he starts charging his chainsaw than he used to be... and is even more pronounced if you take another chilli add-on... so he's now even more reliant on Beast's Mark's to offset it to function like he did before. I consider the new chilli's add-ons bad now for this very reason.
You also can't really mind game with a quick rev any more cause the 3s duration to tantrum makes it so even a minor sneeze at the chainsaw is building tantrum too quickly.
At the moment I consider Beast Marks (or Scratches on a budget), and long guide bar mandatory on him.
If his time to reach max speed was made 48% (1.2s) of the sweep duration at base however, and both Chilli's and Beast Mark/Scratches moved that 48% up/down relative to how they change his acceleration timings so that everything was consistent, that would fix a lot of his add-on dependency and actually allow us to use his other add-ons.
EDIT: actually made a slight mistake, cause I forgot he was buffed from 5.29 to 5.35m/s on his chainsaw max speed... doesn't change much of my point. But for clarity:
- Old Bubba at base has acceleration of 1.5333m/s² at 60% of sweep duration.
- New Bubba at base has acceleration of 1.2667m/s² at 60% of sweep duration.
- Instead of 48% it should be 49.5% (1.239s) to get the same 1.5333m/s² acceleration on Bubba.
Might as well make it 50% as a slight buff to Bubba isnt a bad thing, then shift it accordingly for Beast Marks/Chilli's
Once that's fixed, carving a place for him in DBD would be much easier...
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I find the secret to enjoying DBD for myself is to not focus on winning and losing, and instead just try to make a goofy build work and try and play for hooks/try to get other players out.
I don't find crushing my opponent(s) with meta perks fun... it's like, I'm running meta, of course I win in that scenario. I try instead to make a game of it, and use quirky little combos and just see how well I can do.
The thought processes that help me are: -
- MMR is a pointless thing to try and climb, you can't see it, and your reward for climbing it is it makes your games sweatier.
- Playing suboptimal builds turns every game into a boot camp where you know you're limiting and improving yourself. If you lose, it doesn't matter, cause you're the one handicapping yourself.
- On Killer: No more that 1 meta gen block/slowdown perk, and no more than 2 off meta gen slowdown perks. No sacrificing until hook 6, prefer no camping or excessive tunneling unless necessary. Always play the hatch gamble. If you lose the game/a 4k with this ruleset, it doesn't matter.
- On Survivor: No meta exhaustion perks, no Commodius Toolboxes, and no iridescent add-ons. Preferably avoid off meta exhaustion perks and Off the Record. If you lose, it doesn't matter.
- Change your objective based on how the game is going. 1 player tunneled, another SoH, no hope of escape at 4 gens? I give my teammate hatch... but I want 2 gens powered before I die... keep playing and crank a gen, or try to loop the killer for a different gen to be completed. A Duo uses dying under pallet and power struggle/flip flop with a buddy covering the pick up? Take on the challenge of getting these 2 players hooked. Screw the gens, engage with this new challenge. Or just "I got my perk combo to work once, the rest of the game doesn't matter". This means you always have something to play for.
- If you're tilted, take a break, or at least play the other side. Tilt makes you play worse, no matter who you are.
- Always follow the tenet: it isn't over till it's over.
- Teabaggers/humpers are dorks. Literally just ignore them. They only have as much power over you as you give them.
The advantage of this mindset is if you do get hit with repeated bad games, you normally play without meta perks, so you have lots of room to turn it up several levels if you need to, and you have the MMR to match. You're not being placed in a higher MMR than your actual skill level because you're not running the strongest perks all the time...
I've had streaks where I've lost badly 10 games in a row, got annoyed, had a tea break then thrown on a meta build and suddenly I am causing other players way more problems. Just a couple of games of meta pulls me back to normality again and I can go back to my fun little builds.
I do feel like the community has kinda become obsessed with winning, and doesn't really try to make games fun, either for their opponents or themselves.
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@GonnaBlameTheMovies said:
I am terrified of going for this achievement. I just watched my friend going for it get stalled out for 30 minutes by a TTV Bill solely so he could not get it. He had to rely on a bot existing, tunnelling people out, and all sorts of exceedingly nasty gameplay to get it. He does not have Iron Maiden on Myers, either. It took him FIVE HOURS.
All while Survivors could easily control whether or not he got the achievement by simply jumping into lockers, doing any sort of animation, or forcing bleedouts. We all get it, tombstone is annoying, but I promise y'all ain't nobody running tombtuft for fun. Tombtuft takes forever to set up and feels cheap. The Myers doing it isn't having a good time, and has probably been doing this achievement for a while, all while Survivors can forcibly control if he can get it or not by simply going in a locker. What sense does that even make?
This achievement isn't any fun for anyone. Please, please change it BHVR. Make it so many moris across multiple games, or make it Mori-ing with Myers in Tier III period. Please whenever you do fix Myers, change this godawful achievement so it's not so easy to forcibly control whether or not someone can get it.
Now that survivors can't DC and deny you the achievement it's much less daunting to go for.
The build I got from ohheyitsbobcat that I would recommend is: -
- Agitation
- Iron Grasp
- Corrupt Intervention
- Play With Your Food
- 2 Iri add-ons
- The Game offering
Use Corrupt to stalk and build up your PWYF stacks off the obsession. Agitation and Iron Grasp is to have maximum carry range to carry Survivors who jump in lockers.
The plan is to take the survivor upstairs to the exit gates and stand so the survivor drops off you left shoulder into the exit gate pit, which you should almost always make between Agi, IG and PWYF. It is then nearly impossible to make it to a locker from that Pit before a 3 PWYF stack Myers catches you... especially if the pallet is already spent.
It's still not easy, but it's not nearly as impossible nowadays as it used to be.
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You basically get that value of taking BT now; because no one runs it, no one expects it... so if you wanna punish tunnelers who wait out basekit BT, take BT.
Combine with Babysitter... messes them right up.
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@Nathan13 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795219#Comment_3795219
i see a lot of it on social media
For your own sake, leave it and never look back....
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@Revvium said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3739850#Comment_3739850
I have some of these numbers a tad too high, but this is a theme focused rework. I would love to see something like this rework proposition get tested and narrowed down to good numbers, maybe 6 seconds per laceration decay, but I like the concept of each segment decaying on a timer that begins once the last one faded. the "keep up the pressure" concept is quite fun for its versatility and different situations it can create for gameplay variance.
Been a while since discussing this one, had to re-read to remember what we were talking about. 😅
Upon a re-read (just because simple = more likely to be implemented) one thing I might suggest looking at again is the duration of Main Event for the lower tiers. I realise this rework is about rewarding Trickster for high skill expression, but a 2 second Main Event for D is quite low... maybe a base of 4 and a 0.5s build up? (D:4, C:4.5, B:5, A:5.5, S:6)
When it comes to your combo system (which I still really like), are we taking your best unbroken combo streak that you managed throughout building up your Main Event? The combo bonus I believe is then applied when get Main Event gets fully stacked up, and you then get the bonus for 20s (or until you activate Main Event)?
If this is how it works, that's very cool, like a Devil May Cry combo mechanic, and it's nice that if Trickster has nothing to use Main Event on (like he used to), he gets a map traversal tool instead.
Your extra bonuses to the combo meter are cool, but I might suggest simplifying this to just the chain, as these bonuses make Tricksters combo meter reliant on map rng, and overcomplicates the balance of this mechanic.
I would thus change it so that each laceration decay drops your current combo chain by 1 tier (not the locked in one), then you now have an interesting mechanic that rewards you for pulling off those tricky shots just to maintain the combo. You also have a nice built in counterplay mechanic for camping hooks, since there are 2 survivors, an unhooking/unhooked survivor can block to spread the knives between each other, and now have something to interrupt your combo build up if they survive long enough.
In return, I would probably make the meter go in 2s personally (D:4, C:6, B:8, A:10, S:12), just because this is half your knives supply without more than 1 miss in between. Since your Main Event is 24, if you get a B combo then fail, S is now impossible... but with the revised version, you can get an A combo, and an S combo IS still possible. With your shorter activation windows and the fact B is required just to become a 4.6 killer, I think it's fine for the max ranks to be a little easier.
It would also encourage newer players to pick up Trickster, since the average player wouldn't have a hope of making 16 unbroken hits, but if they are hitting Cs, and Bs... which isn't easy already (especially on console), now 12 doesn't seem completely out there compared to 16.
Regardless, it's still an awesome suggestion!
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794609#Comment_3794609
The problem with that is there is basically nothing the killer can do to stop you. You can run-through them, eat a hit and then still dump the stacks into a high progress gen with no counterplay available to the killer.
There doesn't always need to be counterplay. By the time someone's bee-lining for a generator with a fully stocked Potential Energy, they already did their work on another gen, taking extra seconds on that gen, then also cutting off 33% of the charges they did, and then it can all be undone anyway if the gen is contested.
Survivors are already so deep in the hole that killers not being able to stop these charges from being dumped into it by the time the survivor is running up to the gen would merely make the perk 'fair'.
As it stands, it's just more of a killer perk than a survivor perk because it has really bad investment cost AND really powerful counterplay, as opposed to just picking one and sticking with that. It's currently just buried under so many drawbacks that it can't make up for it.
It's a fair point, the concern I have is the killers it punishes more are the killers that already can't down/ traverse maps efficiently as it is and have to rely more on defending gens in close proximity.
I'm not necessarily talking about hard 3-genning, but as a number of killers you have to already say "I have to completely ignore those gens yo have a chance". E.g. the Greenville Square, a lot of killers can't even realistically attempt to defend the cinema gen and the fountain gen if they don't want to throw the game.
I realise it's a tired argument, but it's a constant problem for all balance discussions... a change such as that wouldn't really make it effective against the stronger killers of the game, but it definitely be more effective against the weaker chase/map mobile killers that can't waste time walking out to far off gens...
There is the point that it's better for instant down killers, like Myers, Ghost Face, Bubba and Billy... most of whom aren't in the stronger camp... Trapper has traps, Clown has bottles to catch up, so potentially counter it... Artist gets hurt.... but mostly, that may be fair?
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@MrMori said:
It's very bad. It would actually be usable for breaking 3 gens if you didn't lose all your charges just by getting injured, it should be when you get downed instead. Keep the penalty, but make it so you only lose the charges when getting downed and it would be a pretty solid perk.
The problem with that is there is basically nothing the killer can do to stop you. You can run-through them, eat a hit and then still dump the stacks into a high progress gen with no counterplay available to the killer.
Potential Energy's issue is that it has potential for a strong reward, but in a limited scenario... and even in that scenario is high risk, not just in regards to being hit and losing stacks, but also the additional time penalty you're incurring that can become a major throw if you don't use the perk wisely.
This is especially true with it's vulnerability to gen regression perks becoming more impactful as a result of the extra time to complete gens that you're taking, and the ways you tie your own and allies hands.
- You stop working on gen progress yourself.
- Slow allies repairs speeds and your own perk build up on the same generator.
- Actively make gen repair overall less efficient for yourself.
- All while running a great risk of having that time investment completely erased.
One thing that would help it massively is if it didn't slow both you and your teammates repair speed while building it up. Currently it's kinda functional with Prove Thyself, but it's basically trash without it due to absolute requirement to find a "safe gen" on its own (which then has travel times included).
Alternatively giving it a small haste bonus based on the number of charges after not being in chase for 10 seconds might also be useful to reduce those travel times.
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I always get a little excited whenever I go to Gideon's Meat Plant, I just like that maps for all the little Easter eggs, the efficient paths between the 2 floors and the sneaky paths you can take... I do wish basement has a second spawn location, but I just have fun at Gideon's, win or lose.
Though the maps I tend to play well regardless of side are Coal Tower, Groaning Storehouse and Thompsons House. Something about those maps just fits my playstyle.
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Pig stun sound is peak. 🐽
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Anyone else find it hilarious how both DS and Iron Will as cited in the OP, and a whole slew of survivor perks and a whole slew of base mechanics have been buffed/added recently to be actually pretty darned strong, and yet BHVR is apparently "killer" sided?
Sometimes the us vs. them around here really feels like a Monty Python Sketch...
https://youtu.be/Qc7HmhrgTuQ?si=8hHBV9qDEb-66ing -
Dracula is a killer that requires good precision to be effective. Playing him on mouse and keyboard is faaaaaar easier than on controller, both for aiming the flame pillars and the wolf form. Since there is a substantial console playerbase, it's not too surprising the more console friendly killers are getting attention too.
I've tried to use him multiple times, and I've had games where I've done passably well, but I'm finding him much harder to pick up compared to other killers. I got lucky on him for the adept on my first ever game on Midwich, literally squeezed a win by the tiniest of margins... but a single miss at the end and I would have been donzeso... and since then, even with numeorus builds, I haven't actually got better than a 2k in a game since, and a few of them I've been bullied pretty bad.
Its really hard to get a feel for his pillars, you can't seem to adjust them as you through them, they fire wherever you were pointing as you hit the trigger, and since its on a delay, your aim has to be really good to make sure you hit... normally you can compensate for aiming issues on console by aiming on console and then strafing to correct your aim, on Huntress I do this a lot to be decently effective with hatchets.... but if you do this on Dracula, you're too slow, your raw aim on the analogue stick has to be good enough on its own, which makes him tough for console.
In the wolf form you have to jump in the timing of the ability, you can't jump, turn, and jump again like you can on Wesker, and on controller we cant effectively hug tech cause we'd have to play on a super high sense to do it. So bounding with the wolf around a tile is like trying to play old Hillbilly, you just can't turn fast enough, and even if you can, you are still likely to miss…
Like you can play Dracula on controller and be OK, but its in that camp of killers where you just can't be as effective on a pad as you can M&K, and using your abilities more often than not is a total crap shoot.
Based on a few polls and things it isn't unlikely that approximately 60% of the playerbase is on console... so console killers would likely be more interested in the changes to killers like Nemesis and Dredge, who are more console accessible.
I've seen a lot of Dracula's myself, some of them can't seem to miss, others are really struggling to get even 3 or 4 hooks.
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Sandbagging is contextual, but typically refers to a player being dead weight and actively hindering others working with them, whatever that means for the game/sport its in.
In American Wrestling for example it refers to not posting or jumping for moves, making it much harder for impossible for your fellow wrestler to perform their moves.
In DBD, body blocking does satisfy the definition, a body blocking survivor is not progressing gens, and is actively hindering other players from looping effectively.
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Yas... Amanda needs this... Piggy needs some love in her model and audio.
Hopefully in line for the next SAW film 🤘🐽🤘
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792710#Comment_3792710
Someone else also brought up the point about Distortion letting you avoid auras, but my question to that has always been "which perks are you referring to".
That's true of BBQ and NTH, but it's not reasonably true of most other aura perks. There's no reliable way of avoiding Gearhead unless you're cracked at skill checks, and there's no reliable way of avoiding Floods of Rage, I'm All Ears, or Bitter Murmur at all without basically throwing. Against some killers, there's no way of reliably avoiding A Nurse's Calling without extremely consistent info on where the killer is. Even some perks like Alien Instinct and Friends Til The End are hard to avoid because it's hard to ascertain if your aura is gonna be revealed.
Knowing what aura perks the killer has is still useful, because it adds a layer to your decisonmaking to know that you're being revealed, but I'd honestly say a clear majority of aura reading perks aren't something you can reliably dodge like BBQ or NTH. I don't think we have to be worried about survivors being able to dodge aura reading as a class of perks from one Distortion activation telling them which ones are in play.
True enough some of these auras are harder to dodge, but in all those counter examples the point is that they are not as consistent as BBQ and NTH anyway, so the fact your perk can block them is a bigger deal.
- Alien Instinct only hits one survivor, if that is you in the locker, it gets 0 value, whereas BBQ can get multiple hits of value regardless.
- I'm All Ears needs to be in chase, so you're actively countering it with Distortion recharging in chase as you'd be getting tokens back as you go.
- Friends Til The End gets totally slowed down by Distortion, you're investing in it's aura reading and screams to ensure you can keep getting into chases fast, a single blocked aura read from a locker can seriously halt the snowball power of FttE.
- Gearhead is a fair shout, but having this perk as a weakness reduces the "one size fits all" countering nature of Distortion. Having a weakness like this gives a potential slot/niche for a new perk to fill this role.
- Floods of Rage is tempered by the fact the killer isn't in control of when they get that aura read, thus is far more likely to be out of position in order to capitalise on the aura reveal.
- Nurses Calling ofc can't be blocked by lockers, but even if you had Distortion stacks, your ally gets revealed anyway, so is a moot point regardless. Even if that wasn't the case, to explore a hypothetical world where Distoetion could hide both players, I'd also argue that with the buff of Iron Will, Leon's perk Bite The Bullet kinda lost its purpose, and I think having that perk block auras while healing would be a great change for that perk. As a permanent unconditional effect, this would give BtB a niche to be better than Distortion in this scenario, rather than Distortion being the go to counter for everything aura related.
I think fundamentally the real value from Distortion is knowing the aura effects in play... everything else is a happy set of strong effects that make it even better.…
Is why I'd be happy to take the Scratch Marks nerf you originally proposed (though I think shortening the aura block guts it too much), it still has a lot of value, but still requires effort from the survivor to remain undetected, this is a good direction.
However I still feel that the recharge in chase change is also a healthy change, since you can still avoid auras by knowing they're in effect (or make them very hard to capitalise on), and it again puts a skill element onto the survivor to stay hidden, or take chase at the right time to get your aura blocking back.
Making it conditional in this way gives chances for other perks to exist to satisfy the aura blocking role (such as bite the bullet), instead of "why use that aura block perk? Just take Distortion".