Tsulan
Tsulan
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- Tsulan
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Insidious, NOED, Corrupt and No way out.
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@StarLost said:
So, overall the QnA was actually pretty good. Some things I agreed with, some I disagreed with but overall mostly positive. I'm especially interested in the SBMM changes and the Dead Hard rework.
There was one thing that was pretty concerning - but it takes a bit of reading between the lines so bear with me.
A while back, several killers received pretty harsh nerfs, despite being considered mid or low tier in higher MMR play. While it wasn't expressly spelled out, the dominant opinion was that these killers were really difficult for new players to deal with - despite struggling at higher MMRs. Wraith, for example, was never especially strong - and now has a really low kill rate overall (even taking his potential versus newer players into account).
Not great, but 'we don't balance around high MMR' and all that.
Fine.
However, some other killers have very low kill rates overall, but weren't buffed (Nurse, Trickster) - seemingly due to concerns that they'd be too strong at high MMRs. Some people pointed out that this looked very much like an odd double standard.
Enter the new QnA.
When asked about the nerf to Twins, a killer often considered one of the least fun to play and with the third lowest kill rate in the game:
"Why do you nerf some add-ons for unpopular or weak killers?"
"Players at different skill rates perform very differently using different killers. Twins are a great example of this- at low and mid MMR, they're terrible, while at high MMR they're absolute monsters. Some of the highest kill rates in the game come from Twins, so further buffing them doesn't make too much sense, since while it bolsters their performance at low to mid MMR, at high MMR it would make them even stronger, which then wouldn't make sense. Nerfing them may seem cruel, but the add-ons were influencing their ability more than they were comfortable with."
That really does seem to confirm it.
So...why is this an issue?
Think about it this way.
BHVR nerfed several killers - Wraith being the best example - who were considered strong against newbies but weak at higher MMRs, and is now weak overall.
BHVR didn't buff killers who were weak overall but strong at high MMRs, and are now *nerfing* killers who are weak overall but strong at high MMRs.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/PDZKTWGS6VHB/image.png
(Post nerf: Wraith is now very low kill rate wise, despite him still being strong against newbies - which means he's getting clowned on against anyone else, Twins are even weaker - but still nerfed).
This means that killers are getting nerfed from both ends.
That strikes me as a ...very odd way to balance your game - and it feels like you have to pick one. If you're going to balance around gross kill rates, which are overwhelmingly offset by new/low MMR play, then you need to follow through with that and actually buff Wraith, Slinger, Twins, Nurse (yes, Nurse), Trickster and co.
If you're going to balance around high MMR play, then you need to do that.
Trying to do both at the same time is going to end up with a lot of pretty meanspirited, bizarre feeling nerfs to killers that are already struggling in high MMR play and at the same time nerfing killers simply because a handful of really good players are too good with them.
Or am I missing the point?
Thats correct. On top of that, the pick rate also is influencing the overall kill rate. So the Twins kill rate, that have an abysmal low pick rate, gets dragged up by a few mains (he said it himself during the stream). Which also means, that the kill rate would drop drastically, the very moment the 2 Twins mains stop playing.
This also means, that the Cenobites kill rate might actually look completely different, since he has a fairly low pick rate but those few mains really drag him up.
Now add, that their own stats showed that SWF had a 15% higher escape rate over solos. With a plan to bring solos to SWF level. Which would then result in an overall kill rate of somewhere between 34% and 43% (taking the current stats for this example).
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@GeneralV said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2762975#Comment_2762975
"It looks like were are going back in time"
Don't.
Don't give me hope.
Not like this.
I don´t mean this in a good way.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2762965#Comment_2762965
I haven't been optimistic towards an event since that disgraceful Eternal Blight.
I would deal with 1.9.2 a thousand times before dealing with whatever bullshit the future brings.
I´m not sure about this. It looks like were are going back in time. Or something like that.
Anyway, @StarLost be rest assured, that the upcoming event will probably be a total sweat fest.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2762950#Comment_2762950
Eh, at least the worst was gone.
Howling Grounds is one of the reasons why i don´t look optimistic towards lunar events.
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@StarLost said:
Victory cube?
The Victory Cube consisted of a set of changes to Dead by Daylight that were released on 4 July 2017. The main part of the Victory Cube addressed the Killer's way of Ranking up, the Memento Mori Offerings and the Brand New Part Add-on. There were also other changes that were of lesser impact to the Game. The Developer discussed the following changes on the Developer Stream #58: Completely separate from the amount of gained Bloodpoints, Killers would have a new system that determined how they pipHere you can read everything about the cube.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2762747#Comment_2762747
That was fixed before the event ended.
The sabotageble hooks stayed during the whole event. They only reverter their "fixes" because they made killers unplayable.
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@GeneralV said:
I was here for Moonrise back in early-2019 and it was an otherworldly good event, but such things are beyond our reach right now.
It is probably going to be another disappointment, as most recent events are.
Howling Grounds Event.
It was a nightmare experience for killers. Event hooks were sabotagable and the event patch brought us this gem of patch line:
- Fixed an issue that made it impossible to rescue a dying survivor with a pallet/flashlight save while being picked up or dropped mid animation. Now, the pick up/drop animation will play fully, followed by the flashlight/pallet stun.
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@egg_ said:
What "corresponding" killer buffs do you mean?
So their own stats show, that SWF have a 15% higher survival rate and now they want to buff solos to be closer to this increased survival rate.
But since kill rates are roughly around 50%, this buff would leave killers at a 35% kill rate, right?
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Since the nerf to CoH increases the time to fully heal by a whole 2 seconds, how about we decrease the time to cleanse NOED by 2 seconds?
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The offerings that are supposed to make the trap darker should simply create map specific "rubble" tiles around the trap, in order to conceal it on grass less maps.
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The biggest threat to survivors are not killers but other survivors.
Let that sink in.
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@lauraa said:
Blessing didnt disable DS so it's probably an oversight
Opening a Chest also doesn´t disable DS. Which kinda defeats the purpose of Hoarder.
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@StarLost said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/305999/hex-pentimento
That's actually a...really good question.
Thank you. I´ll try to remember it for the next Q&A, which could take awhile.
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@TWiXT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2759981#Comment_2759981
Apologies for the long reply in advance:
SBMM tries to match you with players of similar skill level, so naturally, If you are winning most of your games you'll end up getting matched with players that are doing the same. Then it pushes you to go against players slightly higher in skill, until you start losing more than you are winning, at which point you've lost enough ranking points to match up with people of lower skill for a few trials, and level out after winning a few. Basically the system is intended to keep you playing with players at your level by holding your position between people above it and below it, but in order for it to maintain that, it has to keep testing where you're at, after all: the more you play, the more you improve.
The problem with this is that, with how it ranks you, if you are a killer and get 2 kills and 2 escapes, which is the "ideal outcome" according to the devs, then you gain nothing towards your ranking as the 2 escapes cancel out the 2 kills you earned point wise. While that keeps you at your skill level, half the survivors you faced rank up theirs, and keep ranking up, until they start dying more than escaping. Add in the admittedly 1 sided advantage of SWF with VOIP programs, and the fact that the more a Solo survivor ranks up, the better their teammates get who can carry them through matches, survivors overall rank up their SBMM faster than killers can.
BTW, the AVG streak of Wins vs. Losses before SBMM adjusts who it matches you with is 10, so if you are losing 6+ of 10 matches, it pits you up against players at what it deems is your current skill level, which in the case of killer is about -160 points lower, at a minimum from where you were at before you played the last 10 matches. Whereas If you won 6+ games, it puts you at a minimum of 200 points higher than where you were. After which, your next match will either be jarringly more difficult, or easier than you expected, but not actually AT your level. Believe it or not, You are right... 8 hooks with no kills = a loss for a killer, and 4 wins for the survivors, so the killer is judged to be the worse player, and after 10 games of putting up with that level of players they can accrue a maximum of -800 points before it readjusts who to put them up against, which will be much lower in actual skill than them.
Since the system only judges based on kills vs escapes, and readjusts your level after 10 matches at a time, you end up with some days where you completely steamroll the competition, and others where you get steamrolled, but hardly any days where it feels like your opponents are actually at your level. Add in the problem of how SBMM picks players to match you against based on how long you've waited in queue, and now we have a recipe for disaster.
SBMM Starts searching for matches based upon the availability of players in your server that are at the same skill level as you, and if it can't find any, it looks for the next level above, and keeps doing that, but After an undisclosed amount of mins, if it hasn't found anyone at or above your level, it starts looking for anyone lower, and lower, until it finds a match. This is why During the mid-day, Survivors often find themselves paired with a really good killer if their queue was reasonably short, but a really weak one if they had to hang around for a long time. Its also why survivors with high SBMM ranking tend to wait longer to get matches, since the amount of killers at their level available during that time of day are scarce, but killers way below their level are more plentiful.
This explains why a killer who's just started playing with about only 20 matches under their belt, suddenly gets hammered hard by SWF or full meta bully squads for a few games, doesn't it?
Overall, the system just doesn't do its job anywhere near it's intended purpose, and the players know it, hate it, and despite all the complaints we had about the old ranking system, are actually pining for the previous system to come back. My only question is whether or not SBMM is actually causing killers SPECIFICALLY to drop out of the game, if it's causing players from both sides to drop, or if it really isn't to blame for the recent decline in player activity overall? Unfortunately, unless the devs put an end to their silence on this matter, and give us some statistics showing whether or not Killers are dropping the game more than survivors, we can't be certain as to the overall cause of the 18,000+ player drop out rate between August and now, but I'm betting SBMM has something to do with it.
No problem, i like to read.
Yeah, the system widening its search radius has been around forever. During the old system it basically resulted in rainbow matches, when it failed to find players in the same rank range.
Yesterdays stream talked about both the sbmmr, queues and kills vs hooks. Apparently there isn´t an issue. Which just made me realize that the current sbmmr works like our beloved Victory Cube used to work. When the Victory Cube was launched, ranks worked in a way in which it ignored everything except hooks and kills. Kills weighting more than hooks. So a killer with 2 kills + 1 hook would get a guaranteed pip, while a killer who got 8 hooks but no kill wouldn´t pip. Which in return was the beginning of Insidious Basement Bubba. Because killers were rewarded by the system for camping. Obviously this created a very toxic ambient and the Victory Cube was scrapped for them Emblems, which try to keep a balance in chases, hooks, hit, heals, etc. While this isn´t perfect, as it doesn´t keep the different killers in mind (Insta down killers, Plague or Trapper would have a harder time piping, because the system expects 2 hits per down.), it still is better than the VC.
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@Mandy said:
I've messaged you Tsulan.
I´m sorry to say that, but this exploit is still in play. I´m currently being held hostage live on steam.
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2760729#Comment_2760729
She's bottom of the barrel, dude. Your benchmarks have always been way off.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2760728#Comment_2760728
Obligatory Pig nerfs confirmed. Business as usual.
Sadly, yes.
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@foxsansbox said:
Could they make Pig a little less useless before the tome releases? That would be fantastic.
Best i can do is a nerf.
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Battlepass content for a licensed chapter?
I guess depending on how well it "sells", we´ll get more like this for other licensed chapters.
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@TWiXT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2758802#Comment_2758802
And as of the last Killer performance statistics, it averaged out that in all of the games the killers were killing 50% of survivors overall (nurse and trickster's below avg performance really dropped that average down). Killers gain 20 points towards their rating per kill, but lose 20 points per escape, while survivors lose 20 points when sacrificed, but gain 20 when they escape. With the overall average resulting in what is essentially 2 players escaping per match, the killers are stuck at no gain or drop in rank while half of the survivors are ranking up. Add in that survivors outnumber killers overall, and you get the majority earning higher SBMM than the minority. So yeah...
Here's a link to those statistics:
https://www.reddit.com/r/deadbydaylight/comments/q3fs2h/average_kill_rates_for_july_september_2021/
Correct me if i´m wrong. But didn´t the devs say, that the mmr would try to match you with harder/easier opponents in order to maintain the aimed 2 escapes, 2 killed stat? Like after having a streak of loses, it was supposed to give you easier opponents, so you could get a win. And the other way around, if you get a win streak you would go against much harder ones, to even things out.
So if that were true, then the survivors accumulating a higher mmr due to escaping on a regular basis means that the mmr doesn´t work as intended. Or that the balancing goal of 2 kills 2 escapes is unachievable/a fail. Since someone could get 4 kills by getting a total of 4 hooks, meanwhile another killer would get 0 kills with 8 hooks. Yet the system would consider the later as a worse player.
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@TWiXT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2758730#Comment_2758730
I don't think it's "weird" to believe that the majority of players (survivors) are ranking up in SBMM faster than the minority (Killers), and are finding themselves at a level where there are plenty of players like them, but only a fraction of their oppositions population can compete. This is also why we get the random discrepancies in player skill levels, wherein a relatively new killer, or one that's low-mid range in skill, will get paired with an SWF high SBMM Bully squad decked out with all meta builds and items. SBMM is searching for killers of that teams level, and if none are available, it looks for players in the next ranking down, and repeats until it finds someone. Though these instances are more rare than they were before SBMM came out, they still happen due to the new match making algorithms.
It's Frustrating I know, but also makes sense. Add in the time of day, and you get a clearer perspective as well, since there are overall less players on both sides in the evening hours vs. mid day, and their skill levels vary greatly since SBMM is basically pairing them with "Whoever's Available". A Streamer (Tru3) recently did an experiment to see if there was a difference in skill between those he's matched up with in the mid day vs. evening, and the results were pretty concrete to say the least.
But you realize, that sbmmr goes up and down depending on survivors escaping or dying. So survivors ranking up more than killers means, that survivors escape far more often than killers get kills.
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@TWiXT said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2758655#Comment_2758655
I already replied this to @Tsulan above, but Like I said there, SBMM tries hard to match players of similar skill level, and if there's a shortage of them at your current skill level, then it's gonna increase your queue times while it searches for the next best alternative that is closest to your level and available to play. Killers do have shorter queue times than survivors but that's because the amount of players on the survivor side typically outnumber the killers by around 40% as of the last statistic I saw on that, I want to say... before Trickster(?) came out... maybe earlier, I'm not sure. Either way, fewer players in one role means more waiting time for the other, and naturally with survivors outnumbering killers, those kinds of wait times can be expected, especially in the evening hours.
Add in how SBMM matches players, and you get a pretty good idea of why queue times seem to be increasing, hell even streamers have noted that the higher they get in SBMM ranking, the longer their wait times, so I feel that's more likely the case, rather than killers actually dropping out.
Edit: note that I said "SBMM Tries" not indicating that it actually succeeds most of the time, just that it makes an attempt to judge where we are "skill-wise".
People have the tendency to play the power role.
Anyway, with the amount of survivors that have a long queues, all having the same mmr rating sounds... weird.
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Usually the side with the longer queues is being played to much. So killers having instant lobbies while survivors have to wait somewhere between 2 and 10 minutes suggests a shortage of killers.
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Just had a match as Nemesus. Got a 3k.
Endgame chat: lul we gifted you those kills. You should uninstall and end your life.
We have such a "lovely" community.
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Didn´t you say, that your survivor queues were to long? Guess what happens if killers get nerfed hard.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2757083#Comment_2757083
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2757106#Comment_2757106
I probably played Nurse once or twice every six months or so.
I never did well and I just kept playing other Killers.
I got really good at Blight, Nemesis, Pinhead and Artist so I suspect that it took the averages from those and applied it to Nurse, which caused me to need to lose an unholy amount of games to see any difference in matchmaking quality.
But the mmr should only count for the current killer. Whats the point of raising the rating on other killers, when this also makes it impossible to learn the killers you have no experience with?
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@Pulsar had over 30 nurse matches, where he constanly was stomped and i´m not even sure if he finally got survivors of his skill level.
So if you want to lower your mmr, you´re in for a ride.
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@EvilJoshy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2756934#Comment_2756934
True but if something happens that you dont understand you dont jump the gun and scream witch! I've seen some stuff I couldnt explain and when I posted a question on the forums people explained it to me and it made sense.
I had a match as trapper a long time ago. It was one of billy's maps back when it was still night time. I almost always run whispers. There's 2 survivors left and 2 gens left to complete. Im near the killer shack and basement is in there. Whispers is going off. There's no gens around that area. Any hexs I brought were already gone. There is no reason for anyone to be there. I look around the shack, didn't see him. Whispers is still going off. I figure he must be looting the basement. I go in the shack and check the lockers upstairs. Whispers is still going off. I tell myself "If he was outside the shack hiding from me. He would have left by now. So he must still be here". I check the basement. First I walk around to check the corners. See no one. I check the lockers near the stairs and nothing. I check one locker in the corner and nothing. I check the final locker and there he is. In the end game chat he asked how I knew he was there. I explained everything and he said "Okay, that makes sense now". That's what your suppose to do. If you get caught it doesn't automatically mean the killer cheated. It may actually have been that you got outplayed.
The issue is more, that hacking increased drastically over the last month. The big streamers can get several hackers per day. So its fair to assume, that those people calling you a hacker, just thought you´re another one. Is it madening? Sure! But i can kinda understand those people. Everything out of the ordinary looks fishy to casual players.
This won´t improve until the devs do something, btw.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2756452#Comment_2756452
Apparently the devs disagree. Look at how many new player survivor perks exist - and new survivors still get - today. Technician, Visionary, Corrective Action, etc. etc.
I know, i know. But i don´t understand the logic behind this.
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Survivors wanted her gone (and still want, according to some threads), now she´s gone.
Time to move on to the next killer that survivors don´t want to face anymore.
Killers on the list: Blight, Bubba and Nemesis.
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Yeah, they are really annoying! Almost as annoying as getting fake hits as killer.
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@drakonukaris said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2756459#Comment_2756459
Source - trust me bro.
I will admit that the RNG is not always ideal but you claiming that it makes no difference is a statement that is straight up false.
I would consider someone like Otzdarva the most knowledgeable DBD streamer. He has rated Corrupt Intervention in his newest all perk tier-list + explanation video 5 stars which is the highest rating.
Yeah, he also explained in said video the same things i said. That you could get unlucky with the gen spawn, when a killer spawns in the middle, by blocking the 3 furthest gens. Making it impossible to set up a 3 gen.
While its good, its not perfect for every killer.
I recommend you to search for Corrupt Intervention perk study on youtube. You´ll find some Hag mains, that advise against it.
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@ASurvkillivorer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2756460#Comment_2756460
You're not wrong. IF mistakes even matter when the survivors manage to prolong those chases.....
DH for when the survivor calculated the loop wrong, or ran into a dead end.
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Survivor meta: prolong chases and make up for mistakes.
Killer meta: must slow down gens.
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@drakonukaris said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754208#Comment_2754208
Except it is not, it is highly useful for setup killers and 110% speed killers. To me personally setup killers not only include trapper and hag but also killers like Myers, Oni and Nemesis. Absolutely helpful to be able to patrol gens easily while feeding your power. It would be overrated however if survivors just hid and waited corrupt out but that is extremely rare.
@Nathan13 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754208#Comment_2754208
I kinda disagree, it's pretty good and can help setup a 3 gen.
That was debunked years ago by Trapper and Hag mains that also stream. There was no advantage by using corrupt. Even more, sometimes the corrupt spawned in a way, that made a 3 gen impossible, because it blocked 3 gens that were the furthest away from the centerpoint, when you want those gone.
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Balancing the game around new players is a great idea! Its not like they get better in time or anything...
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@kate_best_girl said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754754#Comment_2754754
I think this is a HUGE overdramatization. Its not hard to get a survivor to a hook unless its a squad dedicating themselves to always saboing and being around the killer.
You think?
We'll see after the patch goes live.
Boon: Exponential will see more action.
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@katoptris said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754784#Comment_2754784
I already started blinding my team with firecrackers.
Thats the spirit!
I wonder, why i don´t get progress on my archives for "kill 20 survivors by any means" when i play survivor.
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@douggie123 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/305500/nemesis-players-please-stop
Is there any posts I put which anybody gonna put a positive comment to or is it just all negative
I got a lot of positive comments about this:
Many people would love to have this as skin.
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@IronKnight55 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754970#Comment_2754970
I could be wrong, but I thought a lot of people complained about him because of how weak/annoying he was. Putting survivors to sleep before smacking them was terrible. Wasn't fun for survivor either because you couldn't even see him until you were asleep. He was a terribly designed killer.
Don´t get me wrong, he had his issues and the game really didn´t help him by releasing him during a free weekend that was also double bloodpoint weekend. For example, in my first match i struggled putting survivors asleep.
He had to wait 7 seconds before he could hit a survivor, in which the survivors usually finished repairing the gen, cleansed a totem, or ran to a pallet. They could also wake up mid chase by healing mid chase and failing a skill check.
But apart from that, he allowed different playstyles like hit&run with M&A. Because he could see sleeping survivors aura across the map. He couldn´t be blinded by awake survivors, because they couldn´t see him. No body blocking unless they were sleeping. One of the strategy was to use Overcharge or Lullaby to further damage the gen when survivors failed the skill check to wake up.
He wasn´t perfect, but the people that liked him back then, still love him and which is more important: the people that liked him back then, don´t like the reworked version.
Google 4 year old Freddy gameplay, if you want to know more.
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@BrokenSouI said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754975#Comment_2754975
Careful. You'll upset the cult following of old Freddy users. Who for some reason can't admit just how ######### of a killer he was.
God beware if someone actually likes the design of a killer who isn´t meta.
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@IronKnight55 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754859#Comment_2754859
I played him a lot before his rework as well (only because we had less killers then and I like Freddy). He was complained about a lot back then and for good reasons.
There weren´t many complains about him on the forum back then. Only the usual "boring killer" comments after a match.
Mainly because he was the weakest killer back then.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754794#Comment_2754794
I'm already "retired".
It's a joke in my friend group that when I'm retired from a game it means I won't play unless someone else wants me to.
I never did think it would happen with DBD.
All my friends stopped playing DbD. So taking a break is kinda easy for me.
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@IronKnight55 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2753030#Comment_2753030
Yep. I think a lot of people forgot how unfun he really was. I don't want old Freddy back.
I haven´t forgotten how fun he was. Mained him for 2 years, right until they reworked him and turned him into a different killer.
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@Akumakaji said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754754#Comment_2754754
Or just slugging everyone. More fun for everyone.
Yeah, that also. I wonder what kind of threads we get more. Complaints about Boil Over or Slugging.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2754704#Comment_2754704
Yeah, I said you were more optimistic than me and that I wish you were right about the system.
The moment i lose faith, is the moment i quit playing for at least another 3 months
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Imagine they would work like flashlight blinds. THAT would be OP.
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@Minecraft said:
you say buffed. i say it was nerfed
the amount of missed skill checks on generators far outweights the benefit of great skills cheks (points aside).
besides when was the last time you managed to wiggle off?
People miss skill checks in 2022?
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Skill checks have been introduced for more accessibility.
But the reduced wiggle time for great skill checks makes no sense. Survivors will wiggle out far more often than now. Especially in combination with Boil Out and/or hook offerings.
This could result in killers being forced to choose between gen slowdown perks or Iron Grip + Agitation in order to make it to a hook.