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Traslogan
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I feel killers are stuck in a rut, where killers have been kept on bare minimum life support when it comes to adapting to the ever-increasing skill of survivors (And 4 survivors getting better always compounds harder than a killer getting better at the game), on top of the fact the devs will never begin having the discussion on the issues SWF bring for killers and how that leads to severe cheating, an argument which is always covered in people trying to derail it by arguing that so long as not all SWF use comms then we can ignore the ones that do.
On top of this, Killer metas are purged proactively. Nurse being the anti-SWF red-rank killer? Nerfed in a 'rework'. Hex Ruin being used to slow down gen-rush and making low-mobility killers viable? nerfed. Killers are just giving up and not playing unless they can afford a mori now, or they just went toxic and play insidious basement bubba or something. There is an active deterrence to trying to optimize being a killer now, because we know it'll just be patched out if we find something that works well again.
Finally, we have Killers being annoyed at lack of equivalent action. Whilst our metas get purged, survivor abuse meta runs rife. SWF teams can still stack Decisive Strike to prevent you getting any sacrifices in the EGC, defeating the entire purpose of the perk, but it never gets touched and DS is allowed to be active on multiple survivors at once and be abused heavily. Any killer that cares about their rank gets severely punished for this kind of thing existing since we lose moderate pip progress each time DS is used on us.
I main Shape, with a bit of Nurse/Wraith/Clown on the side, and I honestly just feel like it's tedious and boring now. We simply don't have any meaningful counter to 2-3 gens being done in our first chase, even if that chase is really short. We are never rewarded for efficiency, and most of our ultra-rares are built around meme games that reduce our score by shortening chases and injuries inflicted and thus making it tougher to rank up.
As a killer I can get a game within 10-20 seconds at almost any time of day now on PC, there is simply always tons of survivors waiting for a killer, and then as survivor the wait times only get longer and longer overall, so I doubt I'm alone in feeling like the killer environment is in a really bad place.
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@Yung_Slug said:
This has been suggested more times than I can count, but people are thinking about it the wrong way. Nerfing SWF will just kill the game. Instead, we should buff solos by giving them information that SWF already has access to, such as visible teammate loadouts in the lobby, like on Mobile, a totem counter by the gen counter, and chase indicators for all survivors rather than just the obsession.
Edit: I forgot to add that once we have SWF and Solo at a similar level, we can buff the killers to that level.
This is always a strange argument.
Whenever we say SWF are too prevalent, survivors come in and say "but they're not even the majority of the game".
But we say nerf SWF, and suddenly they're enough to kill the game if we even hurt them a little.
Survivors need to make up their hypocritical minds.
Nerf SWF, save the killer community.
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@GrannyonAcid said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1278666#Comment_1278666
I SWF with players that have very little hours in the game. I win more as a solo player then I do when I SWF...
So we sit here and dwell over the fact that on a rare occasion you get bullied by a squad. It breaks the game... blah blah... it's unfair. But it's probably more fair to say that most of the times SWF gives killer free wins they wouldn't get elsewhere. There's obviously more bad SWF teams then good ones. SWF teams never want to let their friends die so it normally leads in killers getting more kills then they should. SWF players normally don't hide and play with confidence. Which means they stay on a gen till a killer's already right on them. Most of this gives killers advantages instead of disadvantages. I'd almost go as far to say killers have an advantage over SWF players. Not the other way around.
Can flip your own logic on you, you're the exception playing with inexperienced players on purpose, so how is that indicative of the average SWF?
I hover around rank 4-5 as a shape main, playing some wraith and nurse and clown too. I can check steam profiles to see if each person in the lobby is a friend of the others, and I can ask at the end of the game, and most of my games are SWF who are red-rank try-hards who intend to get a free game by communicating as much as possible.
I agree that inexperienced players can give me free games, but this isn't 2016 DBD 1.0, high rank players are not inexperienced. They know what they're doing, they go SWF to guarantee it's much easier though.
are there SWF that don't use mic comms? Yes. That fact does not subtract from the insane issues brought about by those that do use mic comms though, and there is no shortage of those people.
It's also extremely common to see twitch streamers at red-ranks, and you can check their channel since they all desperately plug their twitch as their username, and you can literally just hear them communicating with each other (I've yet to sit and use that to counter their own info, I just see that as confirmation and find a new match since there's no shortage of matches for a killer).
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@GrannyonAcid said:
I think you guys over estimate the communication that SWF teams use. I don't even know the names of the maps... Let alone the spots on the map. I know the names of the big building on the maps and killer shack. Have you guys ever played in SWF? At least the people I play with we don't even talk about DBD while we're playing. It's not like they're sitting there... "Killer is at the northwest jungle gym... Expected location 60,30" as if there's some kind of coordinates in the game.
My original reply to this vanished idk why.
we're not over-estimating. You don't need to know the location names. If you are on the hook and have discord open to tell your friends where the killer goes so they can run and hide pre-emptively, that's cheating we cannot counter. If you were a solo survivor we can counter the info perk by changing direction when we are far away from the hook, but with SWF you could say we changed direction.
If we chase you off a gen, you can tell friends to come save the gen whilst you get chased so you lose no progress after we damage it.
If you're about to lose to the end of a chase, you can tell your flashlight buddy to get ready to stun when you intentionally run into the open so we cannot safely pick you up whilst your SWF friend comes to save you.
SWF breaks the game in ways we cannot counter without dev intervention.
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@[Deleted User] said:
Just like other's have been saying, its time to let it go man. SWF has been in the game for years and nothing about it is going to change, that's the reality of the situation. The devs just need to balance the SoloQ experience to be like SWF and then buff Killers to match their strengths. Nerfing things just makes the game boring and uneventful.
How do you buff solo survivors without buffing SWF by mistake and thus rendering killer buffs obsolete. We are already at a point where the first 3 gens get done inside 70 seconds unless you specifically get lucky as Billy or are against genuinely bad players, the queue times for killers is hilariously short atm, whilst survivors queue longer and longer to get a killer at all. The issue is only growing and eventually there will just not be enough killers to sustain the active playerbase.
also if you just toggle off the buffs for SWF, they'll just find each other in random lobbies instead of grouping up on purpose.
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@GrannyonAcid said:
SWF isn't a problem at all. It's all about hours played. DBD is a game where if you put the time into it you'll learn to play more optimally. There's plenty of SWF squad out there with 300-500 hours that killers can own pretty easily. But there's also solo players with 4,000 hours that will destroy them. SWF is just an excuse that everyone wants to use. The only thing that really matters is how much time they have invested. Same could be said for killers. There isn't that many of them around. But there's 4,000 hour killers out there that will destroy everyone.
Not going to win every game. The faster you accept that the more fun the game will be.
A skilled solo survivor does not get told for free where a killer is walking after hooking someone, unless someone takes a perk that gives them that info and even then it's a tiny window around the hook that does it.
Skilled killers are much better against SWF sure, but they still have no way to counter the comms.
One of the biggest excuses made for SWF is that because it's not guaranteed that they use comms to cheat, then we can't punish them at all. SWF players continue to gridlock the argument, but killers are just up and quitting now or they're refusing to play properly because they no longer have a reason to in this atmosphere of constant SWF, especially at any reasonable rank.
Eventually killers need help to deal with comms, as it's an out-of-game advantage that we have no in-game way of alleviating. If a solo survivor takes the perk that shows my aura when I'm near hook, then other survivors get to know where I go, but i can counter it by changing direction once I'm so far away from a hook. With SWF? They just tell their friends I changed my route and now someone else pre-emptively runs away with a 40m head-start warning.
Devs need to deal with this eventually.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1278495#Comment_1278495
Giving up is giving up, no matter what the reason.
Convenient argument. Not going to bring back the legit killers though.
SWF needs a counter. The fact that the devs will not even begin that discussion is only worsening the killer crisis.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1278436#Comment_1278436
It seems to me the issue is players refusing to adapt. Don't want to adapt to playing against higher ranks? Survivors won't have to adapt to the use of moris and NOED. Equality is beautiful my friend.
Killers do adapt. They adapted by going Nurse for high mobility, it was a serious SWF counter as it gave you strong gen control. So it got nerfed because killer metas are unacceptable.
So Killers took to using Hex Ruin so the low-mobility killers had the ability to cover the map. So it got nerfed, because killer metas are unacceptable.
Killers keep adapting and they're giving up because they know if they do adapt it'll be wiped out on principle. That's why a lot of killers are giving up and just only playing killer if they have the BP for their next mori on the bloodweb, or they don't care about rank anymore and so insidious bubba camping is fine.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1278397#Comment_1278397
Ever-growing wait times don't show anything. It could mean that survivor is extremely easy to rank up or that matchmaking is extremely busted. One clear problem that is actually proven to be major is the swf matchmaking change. Roughly 50% of all survivors are swf, so roughly 50% of all survivors are being boosted to match with higher ranks. The other three are not proven to be problems and can only be speculated upon, not used as evidence.
Well of course, nothing can ever be indicative of SWF being an issue. Nothing is ever to do with SWF, heaven forbid that they be the issue ever.
Everyone defends SWF, despite the fact killers are telling you all that SWF have been a severe problem for years.
The long wait times are because no one wants to play high rank killer anymore, that I am confident of. There is no fun in knowing you'll go up against SWF, they'll cheat with all kinds of info and comms, and you'll be lucky to get more than a single kill. Killers developed metas to combat SWF, e.g. Hex Ruin to slow them down, Nurse as the competitive red-rank killer, and every single time we get our meta wiped out. But SWF? oh they get to keep abusing Decisive Strike stacking, nothing will ever truly hurt them, and devs are happy to ignore it and keep milking it for cash instead.
I will still hold my argument that if we were to see the stats on how many games are SWF when the average player in the game is rank 1-10, I bet the percentage would skyrocket. The 50/50 figure is diluted by randoms at the bad ranks.
Keep pretending like SWF isn't an issue, I'm sure the constant uptick in middle-rank killers only playing when they moris or if they just camp with bubba will magically stop.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1278343#Comment_1278343
In your opinion you think killers should be stronger? Not a strong argument.
Against SWF? Yes. Absolutely.
Killers simply have nothing to even somewhat balance SWF issues like our position and direction being reported by a hooked survivor, players telling each other when we take them off gens so that gens never decay, or people calling their friends to ensure they are following you whilst they run out in the open so that you are guaranteed to be flashlight stunned when picking them up at the end of a chase.
SWF has ruined the game, and the lack of killers and ever-growing wait times shows you that. Killers wait 10-15s for a game, survivors often wait 3-8 minutes, until some poor rank 14 gets stuck with 4 red-rank SWF
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@JoeyBob said:
It's fun when one of my friends goes on his alt thats rank 16 and we get to bully noob killers :)
And they wonder why half of the killers are just insidious bubba campers now.
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@Poweas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1278301#Comment_1278301
See, you're right in this sense, SWF needs to be dealt with. But by doing that, you ruin solo experience. The most healthy option that is unlikely to backfire is to buff solo and buff killers accordingly. But, a balanced game would actually repel a lot of players since it'd become boring and balance changes would be pointless, so without new changes to look forward to, lots of people would move on, so I can see why the devs haven't taken this route.
The game is meant to be killer biased imo, at least in as much as that the average survivor is not meant to be able to escape, rather a minority should. Yet the state of the game is that 2-3 gens be done by the time a killer gets his first hook even if he found someone within 15 seconds and only did a 30s chase, and every time killers come up with a strong meta, it gets nerfed to oblivion. We hook SWF players, they tell their friends who we're walking towards, if we double back, they play ping-pong with us on gens via comms to ensure we can't contest gens, and it's simply no longer fun, the wait times for survivors tells you there's an extreme shortage of killers now, despite the game only growing in size more and more (I think there was 42k online tonight at peak or something)
Solo survivors don't need buffed imo, solo survivors would benefit from anti-griefing mechanics being real instead of just "Oh no you camped a hook, we're gonna hurt your rank a little bit". It's just SWF that needs debuffed to mitigate all their BS
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@Poweas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1278292#Comment_1278292
There is, I'll list one I can think of on the top of my head, built in kindred.
See, from your standpoint, you want killers to be strong against SWF, which is great! But you neglect the fact that solo's would heavily suffer and be even more unfun to play. The best route is to make solo's as strong as SWF, and buff killers accordingly.
The point is to buff killers when SWF is present. Not asking for a universal buff, but buffs that happen when SWF is there.
I fully agree that solo's should not be punished for SWF, but especially the higher your rank the more and more SWF you see. The stats on SWF percentage is clearly diluted by all the solo survivors at like rank 14-20.
Devs ignore the SWF issue 100%, because they'd rather milk 4 SWF survivors for cash than keep the killers, but killers are all quitting because their metas keep getting purged and SWF are more of an issue every day. No matter what is suggested, devs are not even prepared to start a dialogue to even attempt to tackle the issue.
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@Poweas said:
Or, you buff solo's to a SWF level and then buff the killers accordingly...
There's no way to buff in ways that mimic the advantages of SWF.
Killers require buffs against SWF because they get advantages that solo survivors cannot have and that killers cannot counter through any traditional means, or SWF themselves need debuffed.
e.g. longer gen times if you're already SWF (especially since the game loves spawning SWF together), make it so survivors can't see when hooked so they can't report killer position and direction to their SWF friends, etc
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devs will literally never touch SWF because they're too busy monetizing the game.
Less and less killers every day, longer and longer wait times for survivors ever day, and they will still never even dare to look at the SWF issue.
They claim just under half of games are SWF, but I'd be really interested to see the stats on SWF percentage for rank 1-10 without the low-rank solo queues diluting the number, because I bet it would tell you a vastly different story.
They don't deserve a nickel of cash as long as they keep letting this crap continue.
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Flashlights are near infinite when used with a semi-decent battery at every pallet.
Killers are already in a position where only a select few are competitive, and whenever we develop a meta it gets crushed (the nurse 'rework' that annihilated her red-rank competitive edge).
Maybe do something about abuse like DS stacking, which defeats the entire point of it being an anti-tunneling perk, hm?
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@infinity_on_switch said:
I find the challenges fun and gives me a goal other than just survive or kill. Actually it has caused me to use some perks and strategies that I never would have used before. I have learned a lot about the game because of them.
I like the challenges themselves, the problem is the sheer amount of games that get derailed because killer is just wanting their huge daily ritual rewards or rift objective rewards and some just won't even hook people because they're just wanting chase time or something.
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@Dead_by_Gadfly said:
Well you can hit that 180 secs easy just playing the game normally, as with most dailies and challanges. Its not bhvrs fault people play stupid. 180 seconds of chase is nothing
So because the rituals are easy, the fact they're causing tons of thrown or wasted games is fine?
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@PassarinoT said:
mankey
?
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1276360#Comment_1276360
Ah, but you have forgotten the increased lunge! This alone makes Myers the best m1 killer in the...
Nope. I can't do it. It's so bad. And extra metre on your lunge? YOU ARENT SUPPOSED TO LUNGE IN DBD! The only time it was useful was catching people vaulting, but the new vault makes it borderline impossible!
That alone makes him outdated, but including everything you mentioned it's like... Wow. This guy was NOT designed for this patch of DBD. He's still serviceable, especially since they've mostly fixed his stalking, but they didn't even customise his emblem gains when the system came out. Plague has the same issue, but at least that's because the Devs thought people would cleanse against her. What's the reason for Myers?
Except he's awful at chases no matter what, and his lunge means nothing because there is a pallet every 10m. They tried to fob us off by saying the maps are smaller but it's just crammed the pallets closer together. Myers is just doomed to run super loops of pallets all day.
And once again, his power is finite, which is actually rare in a killer. He becomes only ever so slightly better at chasing by being okay at vaulting in T3, and otherwise he's still stuck in 100 pallet loops all day, and if you just run a decent set of pallets, all his power is gone.
They won't even let stalking slowly recharge or something on survivors,it's just if you get bad luck, all your power is wasted on pallet loops and gg.
But he's not a recent DLC so he's not gonna get a fix.
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Myers is extremely weak and outdated.
His entire power is built around minimizing score in chases and injuries, making him a hassle to rank up. His power is also finite, despite many other killers having infinite insta-down options. To top this off, his ultra-rares are the same, they are just meme goodies to give him a really messed-up game where he definitely can't rank up.
The entire game is extremely fast now due to survivor efficiency, and Myers is forced to just severely prolong his chases and typically gains almost no score for chasing whilst stalking. myers was also crippled further by the hex ruin nerf.
Myers is also banned from getting bloodlust at T1 of Evil Within, and many maps have effectively-infinite loops where T1 myers cannot stalk you nor can he catch you, because map design is just horrendous here. To top that off, Stalking is one of the buggiest systems in the game, not hard to find youtubers and streamers looking at a survivor 5 meters away and stalking just isn't working today.
On top of this, the actual buffs of T3 outside of exposed are weak. He gives people extreme amounts of space between them and him to get to T3 and then ends up not being particularly better at chases. Pallets are every 10m on all maps at this point and it's realistic to keep myers locked behind pallets for a full minute at a time if needed unless he specifically brings spirit fury and enduring.
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There is none. Devs will never hinder SWF because it's a big cashcow.
The only counter is to stop playing, literally.
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We all know full well they're running out of ways to monetize the game, I would put money on the fact that they'll monetize being able to remove the cap soon.
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@Stitch7833 said:
dailies have been in it since the start though, yeah people farm rift challenges but thats only because people always wanna rush to finish them instead of just playing the game. every challenge can be earned just by normal play, alot of people just dont think like that, its no different to people who wont do totems and then complain about NOED. rank means nothing, you can be red rank and just be terrible at the game, i dont mean that in a horrible way but its just true, you will have survivors that cant lead a chase and killer that will chase one survivor for 5gens even at red ranks which shouldnt be the case, but i notice quite often people moan about the BP grind and sure it can take awhile for new players but those new players arent aiming for every perk on every person, people can easily use the perks "we`re gonna live forever" which everyone can get just by leveling david but instead people will run full meta builds.... its a choice, theres multiple ways to get lots of BP and the challenges keep the game alive, id get bored as hell if i didnt have extra challenges, its nice for the game to make you use different killers/survivors to mix it up instead of the same one with the same perks over and over
Yeah I know they've been in since the start, but I think the issue they induce is compounded by the introduction of the rift pass.
And yeah if it was me ranking should be far more difficult, especially for survivors who don't have to be anywhere near as efficient as killers to sustain their rank. I remember early DBD when it was actually quite tough to get out of the rank 15-20 zone.
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@MadArtillery said:
I actually like having tome challenges. Helps keep me interested and gets me try gameplay I don't normally do. I do very much dislike the grind ones like 15 totem cleansed. Like holy crap that's a lot of work. Dailies I'm meh on. Usually it's stuff I'd do anyway and if it isn't I usually reroll it.
The criticism here isn't really the flavour of them though. I like having challenges too, but the problem is many of them encourage people to just go in and only focus on a challenge instead of playing the game. Survivors who just want 2 sabotage actions and then they're getting a free 20k, or 30k for a rift obj or something, and they don't care about playing properly. Even killers who just want a ton of chase time because it's worth 35k to them or something.
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As long as SWF isn't literally 100% of the games, they'll keep pretending SWF isn't an issue.
The big one for me is SWF who all take DS so that during EGC they can unhook each other unsafely knowing everyone's DS is active and you'll just derank for trying to hook anybody or you have to sit while they crawl to the exit for free.
Literally they could offset this whole issue by just removing killer derank when against SWF. No need to buff us or anything, just remove derank when we're against SWF because it has so much potential to tip the game balance.
The state of DBD has cultivated an environment where playing killer legit is stressful and not fun, so most killers just gave up and play survivor to earn moris for their one-off killer games. If we dare to develop a new good killer meta, devs will nerf it on principle like they always do. Survivors get to keep strong DS meta and abuse anti-tunneling perks but we are forced to keep adapting to less and less options to play.
But ironically 100% of all bad-gameplay deterrence is tied to rank so they won't do something like that, since it would prove all their anti-tunneling and anti-camping mechanics are just reliant on us caring about rank.
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I honestly think it's a case of "best card in a bad hand". The alternatives are either bad (F13, unpolished and extremely clunky, and of course lacking content support), or they're indies that aren't established yet and are so-so, but DBD is frequently unbalanced and very buggy (the years of infinite loading screens...), so meh, it's really just a case of the best of a bad batch
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Devs are primarily incompetent above all else. 4 years on we're still seeing infinite loading screens sometimes, look at stupid implementations like how decisive strike can stack (Defeats the entire point of why it's there but hey-ho), hell you can still get UE4 crashes that the game didn't catch, and then there's the huge latency bugs like killers getting hits from 5+ meters away or ending up inside objects.
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@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1274340#Comment_1274340
I was explaining how bad the matchmaking is, and from what I've heard it's that way across ALL systems, not just one. If a game comes QUICKLY, but you STILL have a huge disparity in rank, then obviously it's not the problem of "not enough killers so matchmaking is #########".
My understanding is the game comes quickly because you get matched with people who's own criteria is wide enough to get you in the game. So if a 2-man SWF of rank 1 and rank 2 are queuing for 7 minutes, then when a rank 11 comes to play, he's already eligible for their game and you get put together. It is a lack of killers that causes the waits to happen and thus the matchmaking criteria to widen. But yes, I am only referring to PC, consoles have always been fairly different.
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@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1274332#Comment_1274332
Matchmaking is currently screwed, and has been acknowledged, I wouldn't say it's because people are spending too long in matchmaking, on PS4 alone I can get a quick Survivor game(in fact my survivor games are probably quicker than they used to be) and still by the end see the killer is rank 20. That said, none of this has to do with dev bias.
We're not talking about PS4 times though, we're saying about PC times (Which is Steam + Window Store)
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@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1274295#Comment_1274295
There was pretty much always a shortage of killers on consoles, mainly because people playing on consoles are likely to get it because their friends wanted them to, leading to SWF, OR KYF. I don't think there's a lack of killers on PC, though I don't have proof of that claim.
My experience playing survivor ( I main killer but probably split my time 70/30), the wait times are only getting longer and longer on PC, also the matchmaking criteria on PC appears to be growing wider and wider all the time, even rank 1s are finding rank 17s now because they spend so long in matchmaking that it widened the ranking criteria to be almost everybody before it finds a killer for them.
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@Atrushan88 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1274228#Comment_1274228
They get more blood points because there's an obvious difference in blood points that killers get vs blood points that survivors get. They're trying to put BP in places to fill that gap. I wouldn't call this "compensation". It doesn't change the gameplay at all.
To OP. I don't think they're biased, I think they buckle under pressure to whichever topic whines the most at the time, and don't really care about balance but just keeping the playerbase from biting their heads off. They close their ears until they can't anymore and then they do something. That said I also think they're incapable of certain things and won't do those no matter what because they can't, or will try to hide that they can't.
Killers dont get that much more anymore. Survivors have every weird way to get BP; vaulting in a chase, dropping pallets, even 1000 points just for dying as obsession even if you caused the obsession through decisive strike, and 1500 if you just live as obsession.
To top this off, killers also have a much harder time ranking up. Killers have to actually be inefficient to rank up, because if we don't get enough hooks and inflict a dozen-plus injuries, we'll just never rank up at all. Even in purple ranks, killers are tougher to rank up than a rank 2 survivor. We are forced to somehow magically keep gens alive for 5-10 minutes whilst also not letting anyone die early, getting at least 9+ hooks in the game, and then there's things that are blatant lies like how they say that killers get more BP for shorter chases whilst survivors get more for longer chases. Killers are on the same system as survivors, we get nothing for an efficient chase, if we don't chase for long we just aren't ranking up today.
The big point is, it's not fun to play killer anymore. You already have to sweat just to maintain your rank if you're anything past about rank 8/9, and the fact nearly half of games are SWF that can communicate and basically have tons of free perks as a result doesn't help.
Say what you will, but the wait times tell you there's a shortage of killers, so clearly something is being done wrong.
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In some respects yes, some respects no.
When survivors take a hit to their abilities, there's compensation. Look at this latest patch that did a slight debuff to gen stacking speed, but in exchange gen great checks are all worth 2x points now and killers get slower mori as the animation now won't start before the timer is confirmed.
When killers take a hit, it feels like there's no real consideration for how this impacts the game and any compensation for it. The nurse 'rework' was a nerf, plain and simple, it took the most effective red-rank killer and annihilated her mobility. Hex Ruin nerf crippled all low mobility killers end of, and the new system has not really compensated for that.
Now look at what survivors get to do. For years now, survivors can stack decisive strike, it's such an OP perk at inconveniencing the killer that it runs rampant. SWF especially love to all take DS because you can stack it during EGC to prevent anyone being sacrificed. Devs don't care that an anti-tunneling perk can be used actively by multiple or during end game collapse, both criteria invalidate the purpose of it being anti-tunneling, but so help me god if killers are using hex ruin a little too much.
Low mobility killers are borderline useless now, the only blatantly high mobility killer left is billy and his mobility is purely dependent on map layout.
We're at a point now where all killer metas get wiped out, so most killers just mori or play survivor until they can buy mori.
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As someone who mains killer maybe 70/30 versus survivor, even as survivor I can't blame killers for using moris. Every time killers come up with a meta, it gets nerfed to oblivion. Hex ruin? nerfed. Nurse as the competitive high-rank killer? nerfed. Every time, killers get obliterated, whilst survivors still get to do things like having Decisive Strike on every single loadout and even being allowed to be active on multiple survivors at once (which SWF teams love to do during EGC to prevent any sacrifices).
Mori's are bad, I agree, but what else have killers got? I see so many killers do it, and I just can't blame them anymore. If they try anything else, it will be nerfed it it becomes popular
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@Grimm_Reckoning said:
Ok Ok Ok I missed a lot of comments I was busy and after doing more research I admit I was wrong and should have read more into the notes before coming on here and ranting but I stand by at least one of my points and that's the devs seem to be favoring killers buffs over balancing but for my original post I was wrong about them making Prove thyself obsolete
Killers are not favored at all. Look at how a 'rework' of nurse was just a mega-nerf. All low mobility killers have been left in the mud, because when it was realized that hex-ruin was strong meta it got nerfed too.
This latest patch, a tiny 5% debuff to gen-repair stacking. In exchange? Moris take longer and all gen great checks get double the points now. Nothing ever hurts survivors without compensation, whilst killers get left out to dry when changes hit them.
People have said that hex ruin nerf would just weed out the bad killers, turns out it just weeded out killers in general. Many killers are no longer viable, Nurse was the main competitive high-rank killer and that got nerfed on principle too. There are no killers left to favor, they've all quit except for 0.01% of the extremely good players who still play killer and the rest who never care about rank and are here to ruin your day because killer has been ruined.
The problem is, dev changes have only encouraged toxic killers, and people see toxic killers getting kills and say it's killer-biased.
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@ClickyClicky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1241332#Comment_1241332
A lot of killers eat DS. You don’t lose pips because you’re not punished for hooking the same survivor 3 times in a row. Or you can do what some do and just proxy camp to trade hooks.
Killer doesnt lose points for camping because unless you’re 4 man swf there will always be a survivor within hook range. Solos just want their points/pip and so they’re kind of forced to go cor the unhook. They’ll charge in and trade hooks just to get the altruism.
I get what you’re saying but realistically proxy camp and tunnel doesnt lose many points.
We lose 3 points of a pip to DS, the equivalent of inflicting 3 injuries. I think you see my point though, everything is about rank.
I care about rank because I don't want to be with rank 20s who d/c just because I got them once. Thus DS affects me, but it clearly does not hinder any player who isn't bothered about rank, and you can ignore things like that and still maintain maybe rank 11-13 easily even with moris as often as possible.
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@ClickyClicky said:
I quit playing survivor entirely. Every game was the same, killer proxy camps and tunnels one out as the rest just throw all caution to the wind and try to farm points. If by some miracle you get the gens done in time then here’s NOED, sorry kid no escape for you.
You work your ass off just to lose to someone who put in zero effort. This was happening at red ranks too btw
The ranks are watered down so now red ranks feels like green ranks used to. Also survivors just want their pips and points. The game rather than becoming about escaping is this soulless grind for pips....not that it matters because the games dont get any better at red ranks anymore. Seems like all the good survivors left years ago or only swf now.
Losing is fine but when you have to sweat your ass off while the killer is garbage at chases but only needs to sit around the hook to win it just becomes depressing and pointless. Why put in so much work for nothing? Sure blame it on the survivors if you want but that doesn’t change the outcome.
Not to mention the killers were really becoming less fun. Legion and Ghostface were awful, new Freddy, Doctor and Deathslinger are pretty bad too. Demo was fun and Oni was alright but the rest this year have ranged from mediocre to absolutely awful to play against as survivor.
Not to mention its just the most tryhard garbage everytime. All the meta perks, NOED, strongest add ons and an ebony on the top tier killers. Thats pretty much red ranks, no skill required.
Seriously if you aren’t playing 4 man swf the game isnt worth playing as survivor. Even then I occasionally did play swf sometimes but my friends got pretty bored when most games become “oh he’s camping, everyone else just rush the gens, no fun this game”.
The irony of the entire system is literally all anti-griefing / anti-toxicity deterrents are tied to ranking. camping a hook? slowly lose pip so you might derank. tunneling? everyone rolls DS and will kill your pip thus derank (though let's be honest it just makes killers tunnel you further as counter-punishment). There is almost no deterrents that work as game mechanics. They could make it that killers get stunned by the entity if they hook camp too long and then that hook gets freed, it would be a good punishment that forcibly lets you escape, but nah, the rank system is what they use for everything
Then you have to realize there is literally no incentive to rank up. No extra bloodpoints, no token to say you did it this season, nothing. Queue times are the same as there's no killers left and I've literally seen rank 2s and rank 17s in the same game due to the killer shortage giving everyone extremely broad matchmaking criteria.
No one wants to play killer legit anymore, it's just not fun, and I say that as a shape main. Every time killers establish a meta, it gets nerfed and nerfed hard. So yeah, all that's left is mori-spam and campers who can just about sustain rank 12/13 with camping, and they have no reason to care about their rank at all.
This will continue until devs buck up and make killers enjoyable again, or it will simply begin killing the game itself.
I want to add btw, as a killer main, I don't even blame toxic killers. Every killer meta has been stomped out of existence, many killers cannot contest gens anymore as they can't even reach gens to use things like pop goes the weasel before someone just rushes it in front of them. I try to play legit and so many games are just SWF trying to out-sweat you. I can see why so many people give up and become toxic.
The irony of DBD is the counter to the entire game is just not caring about your rank. As soon as you don't care what your rank is, nothing stops you from doing whatever you like.
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"another survivor nerf"
*looks at the nurse 'rework', the hex ruin nerf that crippled all low mobility killers, the fact that Decisive Strike is still allowed to be active on multiple survivors which breaks its own purpose, the fact killers get no points for injuring or downing you at the gate, and how hex placement is so random it can spawn within 5 meters of a survivor and be within their sight at the start of the game*
Also, half of all perks in this game are dead or useless, the perk system has always been bad. Half of the perks are given for free if you are SWF with comms too.
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@Thatsmartguy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1236827#Comment_1236827
If they add bots they game has fully died and the game will have just been dropped. Which is y I said we need new killers and hopefully vet killers come back with this new update but know devs they gonna nerf sum the killer had going for them then more killers leave.
This new update is nothing but false appeasement. In exchange for a tiny debuff to gen-repair-stacking, survivors get double bloodpoints from all great checks from now on and moris take longer to use. It's going to bring back a tiny sliver of killers for a week but more will leave anyway.
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@Thatsmartguy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1236798#Comment_1236798
U know I'm talking about new players right? U talking about the killers in the game. Plus we do need new killer players.
No one wants to play killer, the game is anti-killer. DS Stacking, SWF breaking the game entirely, the fact that rank 20s can literally match with ran 1s due to lack of killers and if rank 1s search long enough their matchmaking allows it frequently.
Eventually devs will be forced to acknowledge due to there being no killers, or will replace killers with bots so the game can be focused even more on its pro-survivor design.
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New killers are not needed, actual meaningful rebalance for killers is though.
The killers everyone has grown with are out-dated and weak, Shape, Bubba, etc. Everything killers can do has some kind of painful counter now. very few killers play legit now, most play only when they can afford a mori. The one killer with serious mobility, Nurse, has been nerfed, all low-mobility killers have been crippled by the hex ruin nerf (for better or worse) and nothing has been put in its place to compensate.
New killers are not needed, just some actual attention to killers instead of nerfing everything they touch.
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I just want to be able to gain good deviousness points without literally maxing out all 4 stalking options and getting no-one-escapes.
ngl though shape does need a rework, so out-dated now.
Also Burger King Myers needs to be a real cosmetic and you know it.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
You also cannot pick The Nightmare/Quentin, as well as some other killers. This isn't because the devs don't care, it's simply because they're licensed killers. With these killers they need special permission to create cosmetics for these killers from the original creators of the franchise. This is why we have so few cosmetics for listened killers- and in some cases none.
Hm, shame I guess.
I wonder if that's why we don't even see mild fixes for the shape, e.g. how he gains deviousness slower than every other killer basically (Shape gets like 300 points each time he hits EW3, which is upto like 4 times a game max and then he can't stalk anymore, whilst a trapper would get like 1000 points per trap you trigger, or a clown gets 150 points each and every time he hits you with a bottle and that actually keeps producing more points if you don't leave the gas)
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@Kind_Lemon said:
This is more of an issue with SWF breaking the game balance and enjoyment than OoO. Please direct your frustration at SWF rather than OoO if you would <3
Have you ever tried to direct frustration at SWF in DBD? EVeryone deflects like you just did but in the opposite direction.
No one will ever touch SWF or any issues it brings about, which is why less and less people play killer and wait times get worse and worse for survivors.
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@SkeletalElite said:
Seems like you take problem with the fact that myers just isn't a very good killer rather than OoO. Spine chill would effectively give you the same problem if a good looper was running it.Only thing OOO is better for in that situation is telling your SWF whats up.
If you're relying on your small terror radius to win games, spine chill (which is way more popular than OOO) is equally brutal
I can strafe with infrequent peeking to mitigate much of spine chill though, which imo is good common practise since it's a fair perk to assume will be present. OoO simply confers an insane advantage to SWF with comms.
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@alaenyia said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1229994#Comment_1229994
This is a post from Feb of this year, from a Dev:Community Manager with statistics in how many matches are SWF. Vaslty less than solo survivors. SWF are not the majority by a large margin.
I'd be very interested in what that chart looks like if you change it to only show games where the average rank was between 1 and 10. I strongly believe that chart is muddied heavily by the low-rank solos
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@Mat_Sella said:
Tier I Shape is Undetectable, they don't have the ability to read your aura during this phase.
Right but you don't stay in that phase for long. Your chasing ability is next to nothing in tier 1 and almost everything is as good as an infinite loop (you are locked out of having bloodthirst on tier 1 shape too). You aim to leave tier 1 asap, save for maybe snagging a hook from jumping someone who is on a gen once. Therefore the issues that affect tier 2 are far more concerning.
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@RareOmen said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1230622#Comment_1230622
Oof M&A with an OoO will kill you. You could try to make someone else the obsession so the OoO has to be closer to see you.
Just keep trying different tactics and maybe swap your set up around, Object of Obsession is probably the last thing Devs are worried about rn.
Shape is completely out-dated and out of meta without M&A though. He's just too slow and has to yield chases to get his finite power (only to find that there's 11 pallets nearby and he can chase for 90s even while ignoring as many pallets as possible).
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@RareOmen said:
I mean, there are a few limits actually. They can't see you if they're in your terror radius,so you could try and run distressing to increase it. If they are the obsession then the range is increased, if they aren't then its a decreased range. As T1 Shape (or any killer that can be undetectable) the OoO can't see your aura but the perk will light up if they're looking in your vicinity, so use that to mind game.
The OoO knows they're going to be tunneled as soon as they put the perk on and most know how to loop, so shut the loops down early and stay close to them, they cant see you if you're too close.
My typical build is shape with M&A so my terror radius is fairly small for the sake of starting chases with minimal distance. I still think there's severe issues with people just over-using this perk though. I understand its usefulness for solo survivors, but I'm watching SWF teams just completely block my ability to counter them by using that perk to excess. It's yet another part of the game where it works well for solos but SWF can completely flip it on its head and break it.
As soon as I go for the OoO they immediately have friends there to triple the chase time. If I switch to their friends, the info kicks back in and I'm back to square one, I can't dupe them at hut, I can't look the wrong way to try and catch them around a loop, and it's just unbelievably frustrating.
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@LALYTHIA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1230000#Comment_1230000
Again, false. The majority of teams are not SWF.
Not every core meta of killers have been nerfed. But you're right, DS and BT probably won't get touched, and shouldn't, because camping and tunneling aren't perks - they are rampant cheap game play that occurs in almost every single match. :) So they are here to stay. You can thank your killer brotheren for that.
It is absolutely not 100% pro-survivor. Almost every patch for the last 18ish months has mainly contained changes and nerfs that effected survivors more deeply in an effort to balance the dreaded SWF, all the while solo survivors - the actual majority - get cucked in the process.
I do agree it is more difficult to rank up as killer - absolutely. It's a broken system and I blame some of the outrageous and unfun sweat on the broken pip system, for sure. And no, you cannot do 2 gens and max pip. Sorry.
So just making it that DS can't fire during EGC, or that your own DS turns off if you unhook someone with DS, is pro-tunneling? I'll tell you what it is, it's lazy design allowing for open abuse.
Pretty sure the devs said the majority of all games are SWF now too, unless I'm mistaken. Was like 53% or something and they have a higher average winrate too. I'd wager that percentage would be higher if you excluded all games where the average rank is worse than say 10.
Also yeah I'm pretty sure you get almost the entire way there through 2 gens with some mild co-op action and a gate.