TheSubstitute
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3665691#Comment_3665691
That's how anecdotal evidence works yes, as long as you don't have a representative group this is very likely.
You can mute specific people you realiser that? So you can basically see how a player uses the voice chat and then decide...
It is fairly clear you don't like the feature and don't want it, but you are actively trying to make it sound worse than it is...
I'm describing exactly how it is with TCM and how useless it was with VHS. This is the asymmetrical game community; not a different community. When I play Planetside 2, for example, I don't get told to kill myself, I don't get called racial slurs, and I don't have people calling me all sorts of names. Sure, there are people saying the Vanu (or whichever faction sucks; mainly because they're all jealous of the Vanu) but nowhere near the level people get in asymmetrical games nor as intense.
Voice chat in DbD is a bad idea. It's been tried with two other asymmetrical games I've played and it hasn't worked well in either. There is no reason to have a poorly used, terrible function in a game that allows other players to direct slurs at each other or tell players to kill themselves and no, a mute button is not 'good enough'. There is no reason to allow a function that enables abuse of other players in a game just because a few people might use it.
If you want voice chat SWF up and use Discord. There are tons of options available that don't entail opening up other players to slurs by random unknowns.
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@YuffieGreatestWaifu said:
No voice chat but
- Allow more emotes
- display Survivor perks in the game lobby to other survivors
A ping system and/or communication wheel would be helpful as well. As long as it's something like that then it would help a lot.
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@MagicDragon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3665711#Comment_3665711
I was under the impression the developers intended to prevent the play style of holding a 3 gen from the beginning of the match, and that their system was not supposed to be dependent on survivors recognizing what I was doing early and countering it.
The goal was to prevent the 40+ minute matches of Skull Merchant making it impossible to stop a 3 gen from the start. That was accomplished.
As well, the Erupting Call of Overbrine meta is no longer a thing. The only thing stopping all potential 3 gens from the start would do is substantially increase escapes against the limited mobility Killers who definitely don't need a nerf.
If survivors can't recognize that from the start and they let a 3 gen take place the Killer outplayed them on a macro level and deserves the win. If it happens to someone too often they can equip Deja Vu until their macro game play improves.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Only on first stage.
That's a horrible perk then. Why would anyone take a perk that only works on the first hook in the basement? That makes no sense. At least on both stages it would be niche but quasi-useful if all the stars align. First stage only is super weak.
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Because the survivors didn't figure out what you were doing and break the 3 gen at the start. Solos are uncoordinated.
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I don't see it getting nerfed. It doesn't have a huge effect on matches and its pick rate drops significantly when you go into high MMR. It's also really easy to counter with Blindness and there are multiple ways to inflict Blindness (the easiest of which is simply opening a locker and being in the general vicinity a la UW).
It helps low and mid range survivors the most but, if they can't loop, it doesn't help them at all. It's not that strong of a perk. If it went up the higher you went in MMR they'd nerf it but for a perk that only mostly benefits newbies and mid-range I don't see it.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3665444#Comment_3665444
That does not really seem like proof that the majority of people don't talk or don't want to talk in those games? It is nothing more than anecdotal, which is basically worth nothing.
I don't think voice chat has anything to do with that, it is just that the TCM has not too much depth and many players got bored of it fairly fast... Besides that how is a feature you can turn of a reason why people would not play a game? Does not seem logical to me...
The only negative aspects you mentioned is time and effort to implement it, because as you can just turn it of you are not forced to listen to anything If you don't want to, it does not effect you at all... Whereas it helps those people who want to use it... So just because you don't like it does not mean others don't and nobody forces you to use voice chat, how even... This seems like a bit of an overreaction... As long as you can just disable the feature entirely if you wish to do so (which is possible in basically any game that has that feature) it just does not affect you at all.
Sure, so in 80% of my matches nobody talks but I just somehow get all the quiet lobbies along with all the other people who say nobody talks.
And people should just have to either listen to racial slurs or just not use an entire feature of a game because you'd like it.
Do you understand how that sounds?
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3664860#Comment_3664860
I don't really see why you would use only those two games? Most online games have voice chat and besides Dota 2, and even there only sporadicly, I have never seen it being used to only insult people... For reference I played Overwatch, Battlefield 3,counter strike, some other f2p shooters and probably like half a dozen other games where it was great and not an issue in any way... And if there was some one rude you could just mute him and move on... It was really not an issue... With the voice communication and getting to know the guys I was playing with I even found several groups of players I ended up playing with for a longer time,therefore I really don't see why you would think that it would just not work at all. Why would you only take those two games into account and how would you know that most people don't use the feature?
I know most people don't use the feature because I played VHS, play TCM and a Google search of TCM voice chat will show you threads saying why don't people talk, I don't want to talk, etc. Asymmetrical games are a niche and the asymmetrical community doesn't use voice chat.
In theory it would be helpful but in practice it fails hard. I don't want to have to listen to racial and other slurs in order to play a game and anything that most of the player base will just turn off to avoid having to listen to slurs and insults is a waste of resources. I think TCM would have more active players if they didn't have voice chat as I play a lot less than when it came out due to voice chat and other people, including in this thread, have cited it as why they don't play. Very few people use it as intended, most don't want to speak, and a significant minority just use it to rage at other players, call the other side dogs--t, or use it to call people slurs.
Voice chat is a bad idea in DbD. It's a waste of time and the negative aspects outweigh the positive.
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@AceRaySurvivor said:
Honestly, I completely disagree. Not having voice chat hurts the game for new players and the community as a whole. at this point in the game life cycle, everyone uses either Discord or console party chat anyway. Having voice chat would make the community stronger and would allow for a lot of fun new experiences and interactions not previously possible without third-party software. it would also help nurture the new players as experienced players can help guide them through the fog. One of the issues I had when I first started playing DBD was that I had no one to show me the ropes as a new player, the game is rough and there's so much to learn and no VC makes that learning curve more difficult. This can discourage new players from continuing to play the game. Another big point is that it would make it easier to make friends. Since no one communicates, no one becomes friends in DBD they just queue up again, which would also help alleviate the struggle of solo queue players. Almost every single cooperative multiplayer game has VC and its pros always outweigh its cons. If you are worried about toxicity a simple player mute option would solve that and being able to disable VC altogether in the settings would also solve that issue. VC in-game would also add a fresh new layer to DBD and would most certainly get old players playing again as new experiences would be possible. We also know that VC works for this type of game as both Friday the 13th and Chainsaw Massacre both have VC and I have heard lots of positivity from that. All in all, I wish DBD had in-game VC cause I know for a fact it would make the game so much more fun and bring something new to the game to liven it back up in a meaningful way.
Thank you :)
Did you read the thread? If so you would have realized I was discussing how terrible VC is in TCM and other people also related their bad experiences with it. It is used far more for insulting people than for its intended purpose.
@Archol123 said:
There is this great function basically every game with such a chat has, and that is called mute... You don't like a certain person, because all they do is yell, you are in fact able to just mute them. I don't really see the point of arguing about such a function when you think of the worst way to implement it... Come on man a mute function is basically a given...
It's definitely worth it to spend programming resources and dollars on a feature that didn't work in VHS and doesn't work in TCM instead of creating new content, fixing matchmaking issues and dealing with the problems marring the enjoyment of the playerbase. Because if only a small minority used it in VHS and only a small minority uses it in TCM for sure DbD, which competes for the same playerbase, will be completely different.
Is that what you're saying? Because bringing in a VC feature that most people mute and is used more for insulting other players than it is for communication sounds like a complete waste of time and money.
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It's gotten worse in my opinion. Solo queue has always had horrible mess ups that's just part and parcel of solo queuing which I accepted long ago.
The tightening of MMR has, in my opinion, been one of the major factors in causing this situation as MMR encourages meta tactics more and more the more it is tightened. As it's only based on kills and escapes most Killers don't even try to play around but bring tons of gen regression and tunnel as that's the most efficient way to 4K.
I'm not criticizing the players that do so as games are so fast paced, another side effect of tightening up MMR, that increases tunneling as a way to slow down games. However, if BHVR is going to take measures that have the side effect of increasing tunneling they need to change something so that survivors have more ways to avoid being tunneled.
I'd prefer a rework that incentivizes spreading hooks but, until that happens, DS should be reverted to 5 seconds and occur on both hooks to help reduce the incidence of tunneling.
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My favourite way to end a gaming session is to play Scratched Mirror Mikey with a Lery's or Midwich offering. I don't kill anyone; I just do stuff like wait just around the corner at a doorway the survivors are going through and hit them as soon as they do or (on Midwich) drop down from above when they're entering the courtyard and smack them from behind.
Generally, the survivors get to one or two gens before they figure out I'm just playing around but watching them peering around corners, etc trying to find me is pretty fun and thematic until then.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661602#Comment_3661602
The base kit makes tunneling more difficult than in the past. That's wrong.
Except it disables OTR, and DS got demolished, so it's one partial sprint burst (Which also got nerfed in 6.1), and then it's free reign. That's better than a five second stun.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661583#Comment_3661583
I don't think so. Everything OTR/basekit did, DS did too, except it added the full duration of the pick-up animation (Which also opens you up to saves from blinds or pallets), then dropped a five second stun. OTR nor basekit do this, and those two are mutually exclusive.
I understand your point. Personally I'd like to see DS go back to a 5 second stun and have it work on both unhooks. Any Killer that needs buffs after to hit BHVR's desired kill rate could then get buffs that don't involve unhealthy gameplay such as tunneling. The combination of the two should give much better games.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3659692#Comment_3659692
I firmly believe, that Undying Ruin was the healthiest slowdown meta we ever had. Killers that wanted to get anything from that combo, would have needed to constantly pressure gens. Which resulted in less camping/tunneling.
I agree. I would be quite happy if they buffed Ruin back up to 200% with the condition of deactivating upon a survivor's death. Undying/Ruin was much healthier than the current meta.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661542#Comment_3661542
Am I though? How can you know—because you escaped 4 times in the last week and each time you were down a survivor with 1 or 2 gens remaining? Interesting… What do you think my experience has been? Does it count or is yours the litmus?
Because the common message throughout the forums whenever anyone had asked at what point in the game does it become hopeless in terms of number of survivors left is that at one or two gens left three survivors can escape.
Of course that won't happen all the time but I'm near to 3,000 hours in the game and I've often seen escapes with three survivors left at one or two gens. Especially with tunneling a survivor will be taken out early and since, in previous discussions I've seen over the years I've been playing, multiple people saying you still have a decent chance of escaping at 3 survivors with one or two gens left leads me to believe my experience is not the exception. Losing one survivor does not cause a 100% stoppage on all gen completion.
The only real litmus test is the data that BHVR has which neither I nor you have any access to. Why? Are you saying all your games are 4Es or 4Ks with no in-betweens except for hatch escapes?
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It's kind of an unusual question because any period of time that had pre 6.1 DS and pre 6.1 DH would have been much easier than now. Don't get me wrong; I think pre 6.1 DH was an abomination but whenever I hit Iri ranks I'd slap it on for the pips since my escape rate would increase by 20% or more which made it super easy to get my million BP from Iri One survivor. I never want to see pre 6.1 DH again because of how op it was but it was definitely easier.
I'd also say anytime with infinite loops was also easier but, once again, I don't want to see that again. A lot of the stuff in the past was incredibly broken which made the survivor experience easier than now.
Survivors have more info than before but that doesn't make it easier. More importantly than easier though, I would say solo survivor is at a low point for fun right now which is far more important to a video game than easier.
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I have all at least prestige 3 but, beyond that, I just really put BP into whichever one I'm playing. I also change which survivor I'm using just to have different cosmetics quite frequently (survivors are just skins for the most part) so my BP gets spread out a lot. I have multiples in the teens and quite a few in the 5 to 7 range for prestige but none are over P20. I don't predict I'll have a P100 any time soon.
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@gatsby said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660978#Comment_3660978
I completely agree. Being tunneled sucks when you're learning the game, but I think people misplace their frustration at the game design or the Killer player being "toxic" when they get tunneled. A lot of times the player that gets tunneled is the "weak link" and they don't ever consider that its very noticeable to the Killer.
Because of this, I don't even think that the tunneling some players complain about is fixable or even a problem. Killers will naturally target weaker players in every game. Sometimes players will load into a game where they're vastly at a disadvantage and there's little way to know it. Because MMR is invisible, it doesn't properly discourage people queuing with friends of different skill levels or make the fact that the backfill mechanic has no matchmaking very clear to the average player, which I almost think is a bigger issue actually masked by the "tunneling" problem.
That makes sense. I think the part where we do disagree is that I do view tunneling as a problem but on a macro (game longevity) versus micro (individual match) level. People want to win a decent amount of time and if the game mechanics favour tunneling they will tunnel. As well, while I would never want to go back to the Erupting Call of Overbrine days and people do mock the idea that by nerfing x way to acheive pressure and slowdown matches killers will tunnel more, it is true to a certain degree. I was tunneled a lot less in those days because games weren't as fast paced. There are a limited number of ways to spread pressure and slow down matches and if one gets nerfed the others will be used more. With very few exceptions though the Killer isn’t toxic by tunneling; they're just playing the game.
I think it can be fixed but it would require a significant change to game mechanics. I think it would be healthier overall and increase player retention but as DbD is in no danger of dying anytime soon I don't know if BHVR will actually make any changes. I'll still advocate for changes to mechanics that reduce the problem but can respect both sides fun and just see what happens.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661525#Comment_3661525
DBD doesn't need tunnelling. It did better back when tunnelling was weaker.
I 100% agree DbD doesn't need tunneling. However, I would say tunneling is weaker now than it was before basekit BT and post 6.1 OTR but it's much more common and still overly effective. I think DbD needs a major change to mechanics to make tunneling less effective; perks alone aren't enough to deal with it.
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@Shuma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3661269#Comment_3661269
Killer mains don’t want to play 12 hook games.
If they did, then they would be calling for survivor hooks states to be pooled together, so it requires 8 hooks before you can killer a survivor.
its that simple and it would make the game better. The game would need to be rebalanced, but that takes care of tunneling and camping.
That's another suggestion I've heard which would also work. I don't think BHVR makes changes solely on the opinions of self-professed mains. They're (mains) not a monolithic group but, by describing oneself as a main of one side or the other, being a self-professed main implies a certain bias towards your side. While, in my opinion, input from self-professed mains should be considered they should in no way be the deciding factor.
I haven't seen any evidence BHVR favours one side or the other. DbD wouldn't have lasted this long if they did. What I'm hoping is that the substantial rise in tunneling as a tactic leads to is a change in game mechanics as losing is to be expected but not having fun playing isn't.
I'm not blaming players for tunneling; it's normal to want to win and tunneling is very effective. It's not fun being tunneled though and, while there always has to be compromises, the fun of both sides has to be taken into account. If a tactic that is pretty miserable for one side becomes too popular I'm hoping BHVR will step up and change it. They've done it multiple times before so I'm hoping it'll happen here too and we'll see a rebalancing focused on incentivizing hooks.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660883#Comment_3660883
What do you think is a fair number? Remember, it needs to give survivors a good chance at completing all gens after one teammate has been tunneled out.
Since you used an edge case example I’ll do the same: 3 survivors alive with 4-5 gens remaining. One is presumably occupying the killer so you really have two survivors working to complete 4-5 gens. If a second survivor is hooked now you’ve got potentially one survivor responsible for up to 5 gens at best, one going for the save (or dealing with the killer), and at worse not one of those three survivors able to work gens because one of three is now hooked, one is in chase with killer, and one is going for the save. And that is a very real scenario.
It's not an edge case in the slightest. I've only escaped four times in the last week and each time we were down a survivor at 1 or 2 gens. That was also pretty common before I took a break and had a roughly 45% escape rate. You're exaggerating the one in chase, one on hook, one rescuing scenario.
As for what number is fair that's what testing by BHVR would be for so they could change the numbers to acheive their desired kill rate.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660905#Comment_3660905
Those are not bad ideas but there is still 2 problem:
- Camping is not biggest issue survivors have. Especially after BHVR nerfed it fair enough. Tunnelling is issue. So this Bubba instead of camping, he just decided to tunnel Meg out. He got 3 hooks from her. And now his mmr is not go to up even he played pretty annoying way.
- That repair bonus is pointless when your teammate died. Because let's say Meg died at 2 gens left. Now one survivor will be in chase and if killer is good enough, he will get down fast enough. He will slowdown game with anti-gen perks. Now Meg is dead, Dwight is on hook, Jake is in chase and Claud have to go for hook save. So it really does not matter how much speed bonus you are getting when your teammate died.
If you have solution for those problems, i am all with you.
If what you were suggesting about one in chase, one on hook, one healing was 100% the case all the time then nobody would escape when it's a situation of 1 or 2 gens left and no survivors. The reality is that escaping at 1 or 2 gens left with three survivors is doable.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660850#Comment_3660850
It does not make it better at all.
For killers?
Yeah. They won't lose gens so fast at early game now. But this still does not fix the issue with tunnelling. Because you still can tunnel one survivor out and then rest of game is walking in park and chilling.
If they nerf tunnelling and punish killers really sooooo badly, then system like that can happen because killers will be scared of tunnelling. But if we keep everything same and nerf survivors like that, this won't end with good way.
I don't think you understand my suggestion. There would be a gen repair debuff for every survivor left alive. As survivors are killed the debuff disappears and is replaced by a gen repair buff. The ability of both sides to snowball has been reduced. You're focusing on one side, the repair debuff, without acknowledging the other (the repair buff).
It becomes more effective to get as many survivors on death hook before killing anyone.
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@Iron_Cutlass said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660844#Comment_3660844
In most my matches, I just play for fun, I really dont care about winning or losing as Killer/Survivor since even after 3K hours (and still being horrible at the game), I still see it as nothing more of a silly horror game to goof on in.
That being said, I do think there are balance aspects that can and should be talked about, and I wanted to tackle what tunneling is and why it is prevalent since I see so many posts talking about tunneling being an issue but never actually talking about why tunneling exists in the first place.
I think it's a good post. Honestly, I think the devs should consider the psychological aspect more. In the days of BBQ and Chili giving the BP bonus quite a few players viewed hooking each survivor at least once as their personal win condition. This helped keep tunneling down. For Emblem based matchmaking you would depip if you didn't get enough hooks and wouldn't get Red One. This encouraged players to spread hooks. Ruin was really strong but, if you didn't chase survivors off gens, you got no value.
With the win condition just being kills and with lackluster incentives at best to not spread hooks there has been an increase in tunneling. As well, Killers need to spread pressure and, with how fast games are, tunneling is the fastest way to slow things down.
Of course some people will tunnel just because they want to but the majority of players will move in the direction the game mechanics favour. If tunneling is not encouraged and there are reasons to spread hooks DbD would be healthier. There's no problem with people playing to win; that's normal. The game mechanics just need to provide options that are better for both sides.
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If your post is meant to say that tunneling isn't a problem you're missing the nuances in the discussion. Tournaments, for example, are huge tunnel and gen rush fests and survivors do win. There are counters to tunneling. That's not the point of a lot of the discussion.
The point about the discussion is that tunneling is not fun for the other side and that you need both sides to have fun to have a healthy game. As well, it disproportionately affects newer and casual players as the skill floor for tunneling is a lot lower than the skill floor to combat tunneling. Ignoring that tunneling is more prevalent and isn't fun leads to less player retention which is unhealthy for the game and would be as shortsighted as when the VHS devs ignored how unfun the Monster role was for approximately a year.
As well, ignoring the prevalence of tunneling because of high MMR SWFs competing would be as shortsighted as balancing on the top is a mistake for any game that depends on participation instead of spectators for revenue. Players are concerned with whether they're having fun; not whether someone in a tournament or a high level streamer has fun.
The top MMR should definitely be taken into consideration as they are players as well but, if they are the sole consideration, it's not healthy for any game that grows or withers on the basis of numbers participating.
I'm not sure if that was your point (that tunneling can be countered) but that's superfluous to some of the discussion taking place.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660649#Comment_3660649
First of all, we have to establish how it currently is:
- Basement Bubba that gets 4 hooks and 4 kills is going to get a higher mmr rating than a Huntress that gets 9 hooks and only 1 kill.
- A Meg that runs the killer for 4 gens, but then gets tunneled will get a lower mmr rating, than the Dwight that just sat on the gen for the whole match, but escaped.
Now we need to know, where we want to go:
- Giving killers an incentive to keep survivors as long as possible alive, while also rewarding them for getting hooks. Original BBQ was a step into the right direction. 100% bloodpoint bonus for hooking everyone once.
- Give killers a way to see who they hooked. Currently only survivors see who was hooked how often. Killer has to memorize and sometimes even take a wild guess. Show killers who they hooked and give an incentive to not hook that Meg, thats about to die. But instead go for Dwight, that hasn´t been hooked yet. Including a improved recovery for the downed Meg, to prevent extencive slugging.
- Killers tunneling someone out, is applying pressure. Having only 3 survivors to worry about is something that makes the game more manageble for killers. So to give killers an incentive to spread hooks evenly, gens should slow down, the more evenly hooks he gets. Just by a couple % per hook. Enough to reward the killer for hooking everyone once before going for the second hook. Hooking everyone the second time, before going for the kill. At the same time, give survivors a repair bonus if the killer kills someone early. So reward killers that keep the match going for every as long as possible while also punish killers that want to tunnel.
- So to increase the mmr of the killer. He would need to get 10 or 12 hooks. To stay unchanged, 6 to 9 hooks. Lower the mmr 0 to 5 hooks. Doesn´t matter how many kills the killer got. Just the amount of hooks count for the killer. Numbers might require some fine tuning.
I think those are good ideas with the caveat that MMR should be visible or some other form of visual recognition should be included.
Currently I'm opposed to showing MMR but that's only because showing it would ratchet up not only elitism but also incidences of tunneling since kill based MMR is so simplistic. However, people like to know or have something to show they're doing well. With Emblems, for example, 4 hooks 4 kills usually meant a depip so you couldn't reach Red One. As such there were more games played for hooks instead of kills and, on the other side, the Meg who carried their team during the 4 gen run got a reward by most likely pipping up instead of the MMR drop they get now. If people could see their MMR go up and it went up by spreading hooks that would encourage more spreading hooks and/or strategic tunneling versus the default tunnel at the first opportunity we have now.
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@Ayodam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660850#Comment_3660850
It would need to be around 300% to make up for the loss of a teammate. Even then the killer isn’t idle after one survivor dies. So theoretically you’d have two survivors potentially completing up to 5 gens. Once the third survivor is hooked, now you’ve got one survivor attempting to complete those remaining gems. That is still a hopeless situation. I can’t see any killer mains supporting a system like this, even if the penalty is like 300% or some such before the first survivor dies.
300% sounds very hyperbolic. If that were true then 3 survivors left at 1 or 2 gens would be impossible and a guaranteed 4K. That's not the case at all.
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@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660784#Comment_3660784
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660838#Comment_3660838
I have the same idea, but depends on how faster remaining survivors can do Gen need to be looked at. Even if 3 survivors have 150%, it does not make up for 1 death teammate that can be useful on healing, hook securing, since 3 survivors remaining is a loops of "On hook - In chase - Secure" and no one does Gen.
They definitely would need to look at numbers. Numbers can always be tweaked though so whatever kill rate BHVR wants to balance for can be achieved.
It also creates a psychological effect. If there is a change in mechanics that favours a certain playstyle people will switch to that playstyle just to try it out. It won't eliminate it completely of course but it will reduce it.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660784#Comment_3660784
That still does not fix all issues. Because it does not matter how much speed bonus survivors gets, when one of them dies it's gg. Because one survivor will be on hook, one will be in chase and the other have to go for save. So nobody is doing gen.
Killers are tunnelling at 5 gens for a reason.
It makes it better and numbers can be tweaked.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660654#Comment_3660654
I'm of the opinion that MMR is the only change the devs have made in several years that has actually been a punishment to tunneling.
Killers in general only want to win and use nearly every tool they can to win. The secondary effect here is that they inflate their MMR to the point where they are in way over their heads and have no idea how to compete. This currently applies tunneling and camping, but has also included cobruption meta and 3 genning in the past year and a half.
But I agree with the devs: the part of MMR that works decides that if someone is winning too much they are getting games that are too easy for them. It's just that killers can choose tactics (or sometimes busted meta) to just outright convince the system to inflate their MMR and they go against players much better than their opponents. The part of MMR that doesn't work is when backfill turns off matchmaking and pairs players with 'fastest match' instead, which is why people are so in love with keeping lobby dodging in the game. It's the only way to manipulate the system to give them easier games.
Killer is a 'choose your difficulty' role, especially because there's no team to rely on. You can pick 'play chill, and win about 60% of your games', or 'tunnel for easy wins for a while, until the matchmaker inflates your MMR to the point where you sweat every game, and still win about 60% of the time'. Most people choose the latter option and blame the game.
You see the effects of it in nearly every post on these forums: killers claiming they 'have to tunnel' to win because they've inflated their MMR to a point that's all they can think of to do, getting better isn't an option for these 'killer gods'. Or they'll target the flavor of the month perk and blame that for a lost game.
And when there's no 'outlier' game mechanics, you'll see a huge increase in cheater posts. Because, for most people's egos, it can't possibly be that they aren't the literal best killer the game has ever seen... there's absolutely no way they can ever improve their own gameplay. It *must* be something else: game balance, perk is OP, recent nerf, or someone is just cheating. Introspection or personal skill can't ever be on the table because of ego.
I do agree with your post but I don't think it's giving 100% of the picture. I say that because high MMR, by definition, encourages meta strategies. Unfortunately, tunneling is one of the most efficient tactics available which is why, despite it making matches harder if you tunnel and punishing it that way, tunneling has risen. It's not the only reason; there are a plethora of reasons why in my opinion but it is a contributing factor.
Anything that, in order to discourage behaviour among video game players, relies on introspection will not be very successful. Children play video games and they may not have developed enough to have the skills necessary for introspection and there are many people who place their egos in their video game skills and put the blame on anything else like you described above. They're not going to realize losing a match isn't a big deal and doesn't matter at all so it would be better to not tunnel and just take the loss for more enjoyable games.
In order for MMR to successfully discourage tunneling the game mechanics need to change so that tunneling is not one of the meta strategies. Until that occurs, MMR will encourage tunneling. The game mechanics need a change for MMR to not encourage tunneling as well as punishing it at the same time.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660473#Comment_3660473
And when i ask how, nobody is answering. How we will balance game around hooks
@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660649#Comment_3660649
Its just an excuse for killers who play 4 hooks 4 kills to drop MMR and play against easier teams. While I play 8 hooks before killing is punished to play against strong teams.
I literally gave an idea twice above on how to incentivize hooks. Have a gen repair debuff for every survivor left alive and give a gen repair buff for every dead survivor. Tweak the numbers so it's better or the same effectiveness as tunneling. Killers don't get blitzed in the first two or three minutes and Survivors aren't facing an insurmountable obstacle escaping once a teammate is gone and three survivors with three gens left escaping becomes feasible. Make it so the best strategy for Killers is to get multiple Survivors on death hook before somebody is killed.
Anyone who thinks that suggestion would only make matches easier for Killers is not displaying critical thinking skills.
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@appleas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3660451#Comment_3660451
The way I see the "sides" in this game, it's Solo Queue, SWF and Killers and not Survivors vs Killers.
SWF has the potential to hit a higher ceiling in terms of teamplay and coordination which has led to Killer players calling for a nerf to this role.
The general sentiment I see around here about SWF is that this group cannot be nerfed because "You can't nerf people for playing with their friends!" Fair enough, then how about buffing Solo Queue? The devs tried that with the HUD, however SWF indirectly still got buffed with the HUD. When I play with my SWF, instead of having to ask where the gen my teammates are working on and the gen progress, I only need to ask where the gen is because I know the progress.
Add on tome challenges with some Survivor challenges being akin to throwing the game and the average solo queue player probably not communicating this which leads to more frustration overall. A winnable game could become a loss because one player decided to cleanse some totems for a tome challenge instead of doing a gen. At least in a swf, the person would probably communicate this beforehand to manage the expectations of their teammates.
While giving ingame voice communication sounds like a good idea to bring solo queue up to swf level, people on this forum have also spoken against it citing language barriers, toxicity etc.
When looking at all the hurdles that the devs have to go through just to buff Solo Queue, is it really any surprise why devs seemed so unenthusiastic on improving Solo Queue QOL in the recent AMA?
Attempting to buff solo queue without positively or negatively impacting swf is a difficult task to achieve. Devs also have to avoid buffing Survivor overall too much or Killers would get frustrated with constantly losing and switch roles/quit the game leading to longer queue times as Survivor. It has happened before pre 6.1.0.
I suspect even if the game becomes centered around hooks and not kills, the issue of swf and solo queue disparity would still remain. The game having a casual vs competitive identity crisis even after all these years is another huge issue, but that's a conversation for another time.
Thanks for explaining. I get your point. I don't feel that incentivizing hooks would change any of the disparities between solo queue and swf. That's not my intent in suggesting it though; my suggestion is that BHVR should do something to reduce the incidence of tunneling by incentivizing hooks over kills. That won't do anything to change the balance disparity you mentioned though; it would just reduce incidences of tunneling.
When I took a break my games were roughly a third of the time I'd see a tunnel strategy from the start. Right now after my break the incidence of seeing it has pretty much doubled and it's the majority of the games.
I think there are multiple reasons for that such as MMR changes, no incentives to spread hooks, Killers having a lot of their tools to slow down matches weakened, etc and it's not a healthy development for the game.
Personally I'd like to see something that slows down gen progress in the early game so Killers have a better chance to find their feet and not get blitzed at the beginning and speeds up progress after a survivor is killed so losing a teammate is not an insurmountable obstacle and survivors still have a decent chance to escape after losing one or two members. That won't reduce any disparity between swf and solo though; that's a different issue BHVR has to figure out.
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@DyingWish92 said:
Tru3ta1ent has been saying for YEARS now to balance the game on hooks and not kills. But the community wanted to cancel him instead.
It would be the best thing to do. It would improve the fun factor a lot. I had previously suggested that BHVR give a gen repair debuff for every survivor still alive to slow down the initial gens and then a gen repair buff for every survivor killed. My reasoning was that it would slow down the number of gens done at the beginning of the game so the Killer has a chance to do something and can't be blitzed at game start but make it so that losing one person doesn't make it a guaranteed win for the Killer at 3 gens left. So, in essence, it would delay objectives for both sides and encourage spreading hooks as the Killer would want as many survivors on death hook as possible before killing someone. Then BHVR could fiddle with the numbers to get the desired kill rate.
I don't know what happened with TruTalent as I don't watch streamers very often but that's a good suggestion of his.
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@appleas said:
You can't balance a triangle. The devs created the triangle of Swf, Solo Queue and Killer. It's either they remove one side, or add a fourth side to balance things out
I'm not clear on your comment as apart from saying that BHVR may be taking balance seriously enough it could be detracting from fun and that balance is a tool to acheive fun I didn't say anything else about balance. I did say hooks should be incentivized so it's the same or better to spread multiple hooks than it is to tunnel and that would make the game more fun. Could you clarify your point please?
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@Nebula said:
I’m playing with my friend who’s quite literally brand new to the game and in his first 5 games, the killer attempted/successfully tunneled him in 3…
Talk about good first impression…
Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. It leaves a very poor impression of the game and, if it's the majority of games, it'll drive a lot of people off. People expect to lose when starting up a new game or coming back but if it's fun or you can see what to do it can be a good impression. Tunneling is not fun and hooks should be incentivized.
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@SMitchell8 said:
I never get camping or slugging. Tunneling is pretty rare in my games unless we are rushing gens and the killer is losing.
Which region are you in? I'm NA West and getting it right at the beginning of the match.
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@woundcowboy said:
It’s almost like gen regression is gone and killers have no choice but to play lame. Who could have seen that coming?!
Yeah, there are only a few ways to spread pressure and slow the game down and if you remove one another will take its place. Also, I would add MMR encourages it as by increasing the difficulty the more efficient the player's tactics have to become to match the difficulty. The matches with MMR are far less lopsided than before but MMR by definition encourages meta.
I personally would like Ruin to be buffed back to 200% regression and Pop to go back to 25% regression period. A basekit you get 25% extra BP for every unique survivor hooked a la old BBQ and Chili certainly wouldn't hurt.
If people want to cut down on incidences of tunneling then reward Killers for not tunneling. If there is no reward and the tools other than tunneling for slowing down matches for Killers get nerfed of course more Killers will tunnel.
Side note: In before someone says but 'Killers will tunnel anyway'. Of course some will as some just like to single out a player. However, Killer and Survivor players are individuals. If the amount of tunneling is to go down then there needs to be a reason to not tunnel in order to reduce tunneling. If game mechanics are more favourable towards not tunneling less Killers will tunnel.
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To be honest I think a lot of this comes from the switch to MMR. People will play in the manner they perceive is rewarding. What did Emblem based matchmaking reward? Multiple hooks and staying away from hooks once a survivor was hooked. You could not get Iri 1 without 8 to 12 hooks. As well, old BBQ and Chili gave more BP for each different survivor hooked and gives information on far away survivors. Getting BP and getting to Iri One was desirable for many Killers.
What does MMR 'reward'? Kills. I put rewards in quotes because it's not actually a reward but even though it's invisible it's still perceived by many as a prestigious hey, I'm good at this which many players pursue. Before, the hey, I'm good at this status was Iri One which necessitated a lot of hooks.
As well, the old Emblem Iri One had such a wide variety of skill levels that matches were super lop sided but the ability to win against a mismatched group felt good. People like to win enough to feel good but not enough to get boring. Now, with MMR, and especially the tightening of MMR, there are less lop sided matches. The matches are a lot fairer now but are they more fun is a question that should be asked as well.
At it's core any assymetrical game will favour tunneling. As well, camping has also always been very strong in DbD. Since those are the most efficient tactics MMR also forces those tactics more as people want to win enough to feel good. If all that happens is your opponents get tougher and tougher you'll be forced to use more efficient tactics as well to compete. With Emblem the lopsidedness meant sure you'd get stomped with your off meta build but you'd win enough to feel good. How MMR has worked out in reality is you'll either get stomped a lot or hit a plateau where you don't feel like you're improving.
So, to be honest, I say blame MMR for the increase in those tactics. Some people will play just for fun and not care about wins or losses but most will play to improve and feel they're good and getting better. Before, Iri One, BBQ, etc promoted healthier playstyles but, since MMR focuses just on kills, the most efficient and effective tactics will be used more and more.
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Really difficult and really rare ever since they tightened MMR.
Let's take a 2000 MMR person and a 2800 MMR person and extrapolate from chess. A 2000 MMR person will beat 99.6% of opponents more or less. A 2800 MMR person will beat 99.8% of opponents but will also beat the 2000 MMR person 98% of the time or so.
The 2000 MMR person is amazing but the 2800 MMR person will beat them handily. To beat survivors without gen regression you need to have either the tools to do it (of which arguably only Nurse does and I'm not sure about that) or be that much better than the survivors.
Considering in chess a 2800 is a grand master and DbD uses the same elo type system you'd probably have to be around 2500 MMR or so if the soft cap is 1900 or so. That's so rare that maybe 1 in 500 players or so are at that.
So, is it possible? Theoretically yes. I went about a year playing Artist before the soft cap was tightened with minimal gen regression but no tunneling or camping with about a 90% win rate because 1600 MMR (the previous soft cap) had such a large variance of skill levels. After MMR got tightened in November I was lucky to get 4 or 5 hooks a match, got stomped for a couple of weeks straight, took a break and came back to Chucky.
So, theoretically I'd say it was possible but , after the tightening of MMR, it's not realistically possible for all but a tiny few and only with the top tier Killers. It's not 100% impossible but it would be so rare now it might as well be impossible nearly all players.
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@Nathan13 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3643154#Comment_3643154
If that last part was the case, why not let all survivors live to decrease your MMR?
They might want to keep their MMR stable instead of lowering or increasing it. Two survivors dead, two escapes is the most likely to acheive that. Their current MMR might be where they have the most fun and more would be too hard and less would be too easy.
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I have no idea if this is the case but if I got teabagged or otherwise BMed at a pallet (as opposed to someone who's obviously just trying to get me to chase them) I stopped playing nice and tunneled the teabagger(s) out of the game.
Afterwards I've let the survivors who didn't BM farm off of me if they wanted to because it's not their fault they got a teammate like that and I don't like being tunneled myself so I normally won't tunneled.
If whoever you're talking about did something similar that would explain it.
Another possibility is that they're having fun at their current MMR and don't want to go up to where the game is no longer fun so they're killing two and letting two go to even out any MMR increase.
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@Shroompy said:
Like I understand not wanting voice chat in a game because you want to avoid toxicity, but to this day I have not seen a game where disabling VC wasn't an option.
Its just as dumb as people who complain about the endgame chat. Don't like it? just turn it off. Plain and simple.
Because people shouldn't have to be subject to racial slurs while playing games. Almost nobody uses it for its intended purpose so why have it if most people would either disable it or only use it to harass other players?
It'd be dumb to spend time and resources on something that doesn't work and is a net negative for the game. Discord is easily available and is a better option. If you want voice chat form up your own group and use Discord. Plain, simple and it doesn't take development resources away from things that can work for something that doesn't work.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3606326#Comment_3606326
Exactly my reaction. There were users here who were even questioning if it is a Nerf to MFT. And yet, nobody plays it anymore. What a big surprise.
But you know, if you have the right build, at full moon, during the 29th of February, after offering your first born to the Entity... THEN you will get value out of MfT.
You forgot the hopping on one foot while moving widdershins. That might be why it didn't work for you. Only one match of value guaranteed though.
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If survivors got a gen speed repair buff each time a survivor was eliminated it would punish tunneling.
If survivors also got a gen speed repair debuff each time a generator was completed and, as the second part, a separate survivor had been hooked it would reward spreading hooks around and make the game more manageable for Killers.
No idea how large the buff or debuff would need to be but it would rework how matches work.
Incentives can work (eg BBQ when it increased BP, Ruin when it was at 200% regression and required survivors to be chased off to get value, the old Emblem system when there wasn't MMR and, if you camped from the get go you'd never get enough hooks to reach Iri One, etc) but many of the changes made by BHVR have indirectly buffed tunneling by removing incentives to not tunnel.
In my opinion, Incentives to not tunnel need to be brought back.
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If it is a significant change most maps will have to be overhauled as ending up defending a three gen is the only way for most lower tier Killers to stand a chance in many games. If they buff gen regression or nerf gen speeds, so that really helps the higher tier Killers map overhauls would be the only choice.
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@09SHARKBOSS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3594274#Comment_3594274
just keep trying for fun thats what i do
I'm going to try but I don't find sweating to be fun. Hopefully it'll improve.
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@Nazzzak said:
Killers apparently each have a separate MMR. The ones you meme with would be in low MMR, hence why you're getting baby survivors, and the ones you kill with would be at least in mid MMR at this point I would assume. At the very least you're efficient enough on those killers that matchmaking seems to think you need a challenge.
Personally, I'd cop the losses and just let yourself settle in a bracket that you're more comfortable in (the devs have said in the past that your strategy should win at least half the time, or else matchmaking isn't working. IMO it hasn't been working but the recent changes might be a step the devs are taking to get it working correctly, so I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt). But it really comes down to what you want out of the game. Best of luck.
@Annso_x said:
For the killers you kill with: as long as you keep playing like you usually do and lose (instead of starting to sweat to keep up) your MMR will drop until you're back under the soft-cap. In the mean time it'll be pretty painful but I don't there's a way around this (unless you just afk but that's not fun either).
For the killers you meme with: Unfortunately I don't think there's any way around this issue either other than starting killing the newbies. I suggest you keep memeing but don't spare all of them and you should go up in MMR pretty quickly.
I do agree that the only foreseeable way out of this is to just take the losses. However, what happens if I don't fall below the soft cap or rise above it again? Then the same issue recurs.
Part of the reason why I'm mentioning this is because one of the common themes in the forums is being tunneled is not fun, Killers feel like they have to tunnel because of the pressure, etc. Tightening up MMR restrictions, especially while most gen regression perks are garbage, puts more pressure on players and encourages tunneling or, if you don't want to tunnel, either slowly losing interest in the game or just dropping it completely.
Neither of those are conducive to DbD's health and I'm hoping the devs aren't focusing on competitiveness as a goal instead of a means to reach fun as a goal.
It's kind of frustrating. Thanks for listening.
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@09SHARKBOSS said:
if you want a tip keep reading this if not dont
just play the game to have fun not to win
@[Deleted User] said:
Only thing I can comment on is the mmr softcap raise isn't to be more competitive. It was changed to keep the newer less experienced players more separate from the experienced players.
Using your word it's hard to learn the game when your constantly routed against people who have played much longer and know the game inside out.
Now Killers that play to win have to play against survivors who play to win.
I'm not playing to win; I'm playing to have fun and I'm not. If I were just playing to win I would have been tunneling and camping from the get go instead of striving for hooks. That's my complaint; it's not fun.
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@coco_shotz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3593294#Comment_3593294
You certainly like to sit and make assumptions as if you are some type of all knowing higher being. Again it's not an "us vs them" because it's not really that deep so chill TF out first of all. Secondly, I do NOT bm killers at all so get that thought out of your head because you do not have a clue what you are talking about.
If by defensive you mean I don't take any nonsense from a complete stranger on some online forums trying to act as if they are the rep for "killers out for kindness" then I guess I have a big ole tortoise shell on my back since you are in no position to act this way towards me in any capacity since you are quite literally nobody to me. If you knew anything about the forums then you would know that anything on them is not representative of the average gaming experience because the forums are extremely bias at the best of times and a complete joke at the worst. It's not unrealistic to not experience something that actually belongs at a much lower MMR since being a competent looper often makes you a target since killers hate being outplayed.
Learn some actual facts about me before you start trying to accuse me of being any type of way because you do not know me in any way shape or form to be telling me what I need to improve on or what I'm doing.
Of course I'm a nobody to you. That's why you write your super long responses to me. Perhaps I'm just making assumptions sort of like how you did when you said that you think all the players describing how they let people go are just 'describing the one time and that's it' instead of taking what they said at face value and in good faith. Your initial post was mistaken; no need to try to double down so much.
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@coco_shotz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3593159#Comment_3593159
What people lol you're the only one here acting all condescending simply because you can't understand that this idea of being let go is not common in killer vs survivor game setting. I wish I had a ladder tall enough for the amount of reaching you're doing
I'm simply stating facts instead of trying to rewrite the narrative. Did you say or not say 'you're possibly the only Killer on these forums to do that' as you wrote on your first post. You then became defensive since I pointed out how wrong you were.
If you were familiar with the forums and not trying to do an 'us vs them' then you would have recognized that the OP's question has been asked multiple times before and each time multiple people stated they do let survivors go and under what circumstances.
I never said most Killers but it happens enough that I suspect the only people that don't see it occasionally are also the same people who BM the Killer at every pallet and just try to be obnoxious. If that's the case improving your attitude might help you.
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@coco_shotz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3592494#Comment_3592494
Maybe you need to reread. Saying something that happens when it does is not making anything "us vs them" it's stating that the idea of a killer letting survivors go is ridiculous and it is since it never happens in a real setting. It's not bias to say my own experiences
You're precluding the experiences of everyone else. You didn’t say 'that doesn't happen to me'. You said the poster was the only Killer and then people proceeded to prove you wrong.