TAG
TAG
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I think this idea seems fine? Since this hinges on being able to find someone, Killers with bad early game get to benefit nicely while those who can just immediately hit the ground running from the get-go will get less benefit. So the end result is that it all kinda smooths out across the board.
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@PigMainClaudette said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1069271#Comment_1069271
Compared to twitchy FPS games, they really don't and that was kinda the point.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1069281#Comment_1069281
And I've heard this, but I'm also looking at the follow-on effect. If DbD does it, then people will complain about other games not doing it, and like children will go "BUT THEY CAN!" then all of a sudden, the more casual console markets become flooded with M&K elitists.
I'm not saying that ALL M&K people are like this, but enough will infect the higher ranks of anything with a competitive scene.
It's just easier to have a blanket NO and be done with it.
I'm not seeing the problem here.
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Freddy and David. :)
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Pig. Pig. PIG.
Seriously, why does Pig have so many bad add-ons.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1067140#Comment_1067140
Lmao he played imperfectly and with weak perks. Remember the devs want a 2k, not a 4k. Thanks for the salty bias though 🤗
I would argue Survivors are given way more leeway against a Killer than vice versa. Killers only really have to make a few mistakes to concede a ton of progress while Survivors collectively have to play pretty badly overall to fall behind just as hard. That to me would explain games where Killers lose a ton of progress in mere minutes at the start, only for Survivors to stall out completely and lose in the end.
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My favorite post-game comments are from a Survivor who died during endgame to camping saying "You shouldn't camp during the endgame because then you don't improve as a player." Yep, you're totally being sincere and not just poorly trying to cover up being salty. Somehow, they never seem to have a good answer to "What should I have done instead?"
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@Peanits said:
It would definitely be too much to be a non-hex perk. We aren't looking to change it to a non-hex perk.
It's definitely not just a late game perk, though. It'll get stronger the longer the game goes on and the fewer generators you need to check, but it can still be handy early on.
It's definitely not a late game perk
FTFY
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1065838#Comment_1065838
Ah yes I will only get on board with the killer buff lmao
I said maybe. It would have to actually be balanced. As in not OP like non-Cypress Moris.
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Only the first idea I could maybe get on board with
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I imagine the ramifications would be pretty strong. No thanks.
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Remember, people who lost the event cosmetics: You have the people who didn't want everyone to get them to thank for you guys still not having then returned.
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Buff. Stance switching being removed and Static Field being changed to Static Blast were quite nice.
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@Marcavecunc said:
Suggestion:
Have Amanda decide on when the trap activates.
You put the trap on someone.
- By default, it activates after a Generator has been completed
- Press M2 again to cycle through the different settings (activate when survivor stands up and moves, or maybe when he does an action)
I guess that would make endgame reverse bear traps a thing again, or the option to change the settings could just not be there after all generators are done.
Why would I pick anything other than "When Survivor stands up and moves?"
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I've been having better results using Mad Grit than using Ruin.
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*loads Agitation + Iron Grasp + Mad Grit*
Come at me, breh.
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@Peanits said:
It'll continue regressing once the Thrilling Tremors effect wears off, but the regression is paused while the blocking is active.
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@BenZ0 said:
A bug usually comes if you change something in resulation to that for a example when they wanted to adjust the spirits post phase movementspeed curve, they bugged it to not stack it with the wraith AND spirits lunge.
In this case they didnt needed or had to change anything with Enduring so it is most likely not a "bug".
Counterpoint: It has explicitly been stated recently that if it is not in the patch notes, it is not an intended change.
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I've noticed a pattern of things people accused of being shadow nerfs simply being bugs...
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Doesn't Adam have, like, almost nothing?
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Can we at least act like you should see that level of imbalance 0/10 times (unless the player skill gap is really big) and that the game should be balanced accordingly?
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@xBEATDOWNSx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1060464#Comment_1060464
Dense? Nah man. Playing with a MOUSE AND KEYBOARD on a console is 200% cheating. That's why competitive games like Siege and PUBG will ban you if it's proven you are using it on console.
If you want to play with it, play on a PC.
Playing with a MOUSE AND KEYBOARD on a console is 200% cheating.
Not if the devs ever officially okay it, which is the point of this thread.
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He might need a few buffs, but I don't think he needs a rework.
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@Kenidur said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1062351#Comment_1062351
I missed a variable making my point moot. Question though, Do you know what that variable was?
Yes. I already said what it was:
@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1062132#Comment_1062132
The Monty Hall problem requires you to learn which of the remaining three boxes is definitely wrong after you make your choice from among those three boxes.
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@Kenidur said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1062268#Comment_1062268
in this case though the "door" is decided for you. 4 boxes around the map and the 1st box is empty. the 2nd box is the closest box you would go to, but this box will be wrong 66% of the time. It's a forced pick. You're better off skipping the closet and moving to the further 2 boxes.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1062278#Comment_1062278
Tag, As i noted, 66% of the time, you have a 50% chance on the next to boxes. That's why it's not 50% likely you will get it second shot, but still significantly higher than 33%. You have a defining starting point on the map with your option, the 1st box. 3 boxes left and the distance is different to each box. This is why people go to the closest box. With a defining starting point though, You are guaranteed that the closest box is only correct 33% of the time, making the choice to go to the further boxes better.
Based on %'s I can't say difinitively that forcing the 1st fail won't guarantee more time, but it won't provide as much as you would expect.
If 66% of the time, you have a 50% chance on the next two boxes, that means that .66 * .50 = .33 = 33% chance.
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@Kenidur said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1062145#Comment_1062145
Not really, Once you have used the 1st box, the choice is made. by default the next box people choose is the closest box. With that being the case, the closest box will be wrong 66% of the time. You're better off going to one of the further boxes.
If you know you have a 66% chance of the closest box being wrong, that doesn't mean that you have a 50% chance of one of the other two boxes being right. In order for you to get the right box, you have to both correctly guess that the closest box is wrong (66% chance of being correct) and then win the next coinflip (50%). But you won't know that your first guess was right/wrong until you either find the key in one of the other two boxes or you don't. This brings the odds of correctly guessing the right box at 33% for guess #2 and 50% for guess #3, which is the same as how it currently. The only difference is that the odds of guessing the right box on guess #1 is 0% (vs. 25% currently) because the odds would be rigged for the first attempt.
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@Kenidur said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1061901#Comment_1061901
It's the Monty Hall problem (Or the Let's Make a Deal mistake). In the original show, a contestant would have the choice between 3 doors, 1 having the best prize, other 2 being ehh. you choose a door, then you are given the option to keep or change for one of the other 2 doors. Those who change to another door won more often than those who didn't. This made a big difference when it came to prizes because they were based on contestants winning 33% of the time. they instead were winning above 40%
By forcing the 1st box empty, it would mean the key can't spawn in a box until the first is done. By default, you hit a box, then naturally go to the next closest, and so on. but here's the thing, If the key spawns after 1st box, what are the chances the next blosest box will be correct? 33%, which means you have a 66% chance of it being wrong. You improve your odds by skipping the closest and going to the next. Chances are better it will be in the next 2 boxes, where you 2/3rds of the time, you have a 50% chance of being correct. With that being the case, you have dramatically improved your chances of findind the key on the 2nd chance than any anything else. With the key spawning on 1st box, you have a 25% chance of being correct, and 33% on the second/ in this case, you can't skip the first 2 boxes because you have a 50/50 chance of it being in those first 2. Ultimately by forcing the 1st box to fail is increased the chances of finding it on the 2nd box. you may find that overall, the time you gain by forcing the 1st empty, is lost by many more are finding it on the 2nd and third.
It's confusing math which is why I recommend reading up on it to see the overall %'s.
The Monty Hall problem requires you to learn which of the remaining three boxes is definitely wrong after you make your choice from among those three boxes.
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1061982#Comment_1061982
Ah, I see now, I think we both have different view points of RBTs.
I think RBTs are supposed to make survivors waste time and the potential lethality of them keeps the survivors in check — I think my idea fits perfectly for OP.
Survivors are forced to waste time, or give the killer a free Tampered Timer. Couple that with your idea of the survivor always removing their RBT after the first Jigsaw Box, if the survivor plays it risky — they are at the mercy of RNG. This is basekit and without add-ons.
The way I personally see it is like this:
The Reverse Bear Trap's first goal is to waste Survivors' time. The fact that they can kill should be second. They should not be so much of a distant second that it will virtually never happen outside of yellow ranks. They already have a pretty low kill rate (as they should, to be fair). I don't believe pushing RBTs to being predominantly killing tools the way some people try to argue, but when an idea reduces the actual Trap killing so much that it becomes nearly indistinguishable from "Survivors wearing handcuffs can't work on gens until they find the key to the handcuffs" that's when the idea starts to lose me. I didn't start playing Pig because I was interested in a Killer who can stall for time. I picked up Pig because I was in love with the idea of a Killer that had an alternate win condition, even if that win condition is rare. When you make the Trap Kill go from "rare" to "not actually going to ever happen in practice," then you kinda turn the Reverse Bear Trap into Feral Frenzy 2.0: Deadly force in name only.
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@PapiQuentin_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1061982#Comment_1061982
This change would literally make tunnelling trapped survivors even easier.
If this was base kit as well as the Pig using Tampered Timer and Crate of Gears then bye bye survivor
Tunneling Trapped Survivors isn't even a good idea to begin with.
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1061912#Comment_1061912
That's why we implement my passive timer and active timer idea, I changed it a little bit since the last time we discussed it.
Long story short, survivors will have:
- 1 minute passive timer.
Once this timer expires, a generator will be needed to progress the RBT to the active state. If a generator has been completed during your passive timer, once it ends, the RBT will immediately progress to the active state.
- 2 minute active timer.
Once this timer expires, game over.
Here's the part I changed, the passive timer will immediately expire if the trapped survivor performs any basic action listed below:
- Repairing
- Healing
- Unhooking
- Sabotaging
- Cleansing
- Searching
- Opening
- Other (Any Means Necessary, Self-Care, and etc)
This doesn't include actions survivors perform on you.
If this change happens, we can worry less about making survivors searching all Jigsaw Boxes because they have more than enough time to do so. Therefore, the survivor will always find the key after the first Jigsaw Box. If they are killed, they simply wasted their passive timer by doing generators — that's their fault for playing risky. 😁
Without going too far off-topic, my issue is that it makes Trap kills a near impossibility, at which point why even bother with making a SAW chapter?
@PapiQuentin_ said:
If rules set no.2 becomes base kit then this could become the new rules set no.2
This is way too strong to be basekit
I would rather OP's suggestion be base kit than Rules Set No. 2.
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@NMCKE said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1061805#Comment_1061805
Hey TAG, since me and you are very passionate about our gal, what do you think about this:
- The survivor will always find the key between first and last boxes.
This forces survivors to search more than one box while survivors at most, won't have to search all boxes. 😁
I'll redirect you to an earlier post I made about this.
@TAG said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1060955#Comment_1060955
Here's my issue with taking away the last box:
If you know you have less boxes to do, then you have that much more of a safety net for when the timer does count down. It enables Survivors to get far more greedy with the boxes and allow them to be more efficient with balancing doing gens and doing boxes. Since there is no way in hell that a Survivor will not be able to search two boxes in 2-2.5 minutes (assume all base kit), a Survivor can easily just get one box out of the way and then just get back to gens knowing that once the clock starts, they have less boxes to search through before they can return to gens.
The end result will simply be that the Survivors will respect the Traps that much less because they know they can afford to.
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@Kenidur said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1061805#Comment_1061805
My mistake, but that makes it worse for killers, it takes out a sizable chunk of randomness from it. 1st box is an auto fail, which leave you with 3 boxes. Chances are the 2 and box will fail as well. Skip that and go to the last 2 will have a better chance of being correct. If you want to see what I mean, look up Let's make a deal paradox on google.
You're going to have to better explain what you are saying because you're not making a ton of sense.
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I think it would be good for Demo to be able to manually destroy his own portals the way Trapper picks up his used Bear Traps.
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@Kenidur said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1061595#Comment_1061595
I get that but at the same time, I don't believe that an auto fail on first box will make a big difference. With 5 boxes, you have a 20% chance of getting it right. On average 1 survivor in 4 out of 5 games will get it right first shot. Taking that away doesn't provide a consistent improvement. Yes, there are games where they all get it right on first, but just as many on last. As a survivor main, I've only hit it 1st time maybe 3 or 4 times total.
1) It's 4 boxes base kit, not 5.
2) Reducing 25% chance to 0% will make a difference in the long term.
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@Kungpowa said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1061663#Comment_1061663
I understand what you are saying. What I'm saying is it didn't take FFE for him to get there. I should have recorded the trial. I was in shock at how quickly this all happened. Not sure if its a bug that it happened as quickly as it did, but I just can't participate in gameplay like that. Actually its no that I can't, I won't.
Believe us when we say that the scenario you are describing is exceptionally difficult for Myers to accomplish unless the Survivors are playing really poorly compared to the Killer. Judith's Tombstone and Fragrant Tuft of Hair make up one of the weakest add-on combinations any Killer can have (a large part of that is due to Tombstone being one of the weakest individual add-ons in the game, and Fragrant Tuft amplifies the things that makes Tombstone so weak).
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Considering how long it takes for Myer to reach Tier 3 when using Tombstone and Fragrant Tuft and how slow he moves, I would say the team has more than enough time to get through gens and at least come close to getting out.
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@JacksonWise said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1061626#Comment_1061626
I would be ok with that too. Besides Freddy, Pig is the only one whose power becomes partially useless once EGC starts. If she still has traps by endgame, she should be able to use them.
Agreed.
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@JacksonWise said:
I just wish her traps also activated when the endgame collapse starts so she can still get use out of them. A survivor can still have their trap activate when the last gen goes off and the EGC can start 20 seconds later. So the survivor would still have to deal with two timers in that scenario.
I'd rather just have Traps auto-start when all the gens are done and make it so EGC timer is paused while someone has a Trap on. Basically like how it used to be prior to EGC nerf.
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@Waffleyumboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1061515#Comment_1061515
What do you expect from players who like seeing people being brutally murdered :/
I can't go to sleep at night unless I get to screencap a pic of the corpse of a Survivor who died to my Reverse Bear Trap. :>
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@Kenidur said:
I think peanits answered it perfectly, only one box has the key. It really does come down to the player picking correctly. If you want to ma kg e it harder, just use the addons to add boxes.
I'd rather find a better way to make the boxes a bit harder than add-ons that could theoretically have a minimal impact if enough Survivors are lucky with their boxes. Hence why I am in favor of making first box auto-fail.
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@Heartbound said:
Pig can be right click to win, do you think survivors hesitate to pop gens due to rbts?
Not only do they potentially take a few tries to remove, they force you to go to places that are very open (and you're probably already injured).
Pig is the paypig. Its played by the same kind of people that like rng lootboxes or people that spend hundreds of dollars on Korean skinnerbox mmos.
Tl:dr sure make them go off randomly in matches. Yo dawg I heard you like rng, let me put more rng in your rng so you can rng while you rng.
What? I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say here.
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@Mat_Sella said:
Even if i agreed with you, that's not how the box - key mechanic work. Keys spawn when the match starts, there could be 4 keys in one box, or no keys in one box.
They'd have to redo the entire mechanic for that to happen, which, while i don't disagree, removes satisfaction for when you do choose correctly the first time.
its a catch 22, I'd hate for someone to get the trap off the first time as Pig, and i'd hate to choose a box knowing its guarantee to fail as survivor.
I am certainly not going to tell you how to feel, as your opinions and thoughts are your own, but if I had to wager a guess, the feel-bad for a Survivor is far less likely to be knowing that the first box is auto-fail and far more likely to be the scenario where they actually die to the Trap.
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@thesuicidefox said:
Yes I agree. Let's make it always come off at the second box. That seems fair.
I also agree. 60 seconds for two boxes seems fair.
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@Carpemortum said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1061013#Comment_1061013
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1061025#Comment_1061025
Harder is one thing. Making it a hard 3rd attempt just makes it a power with a specified requirement and not the guessing/picking that it fits.
Also, werr forgetting the trap she was in required her to kill someone else to get out, not shed her own blood. Theyve already taken liberties with how it works compared to her actual story.
If you make the first box always fail, then you still allow it to be a guessing game while also making things a bit better for the Pig, no?
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@Carpemortum said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1061013#Comment_1061013
She does, which is why she was punished as well. In that logic, NO boxes would have keys.
We have to have it stick to the actual core concept despite her personal flaws. Yes she rigged games, and that was her downfall/ticket to the entities realm.
But I doubt shed rig them to have them in every single box, or be able to know which 2 the survivors would go to first making the third always have it. That's less rigging and more being psychic lol.
Then she just rigs the boxes so that the first box doesn't have the key. :P That would be actually more true to the spirit of the character (without destroying game balance).
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@Carpemortum said:
Yes they should. Have you even seen the movies?
Not only is it based on the players CHOICE, it fits the movies perfectly.
Your key is in a box, you just have to choose which one leads to your salvation.
Does the pig need tweaks to make her power more useful? Sure. But removing the traps is based on survivor choice and decisions, not RNG (or you could use the same box over and over until it worked), and fits in perfectly with her character.
Doesn't Amanda Young actively rig the games in the movies?
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@Archimedes5000 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1060941#Comment_1060941
Thats right, its % chance, thats why its unreliable
Yes you should be forced to do multiple boxes, because 1 is too fast. But yes, if you are forced to do 2+ boxes then 5th box should be empty too.
Here's my issue with taking away the last box:
If you know you have less boxes to do, then you have that much more of a safety net for when the timer does count down. It enables Survivors to get far more greedy with the boxes and allow them to be more efficient with balancing doing gens and doing boxes. Since there is no way in hell that a Survivor will not be able to search two boxes in 2-2.5 minutes (assume all base kit), a Survivor can easily just get one box out of the way and then just get back to gens knowing that once the clock starts, they have less boxes to search through before they can return to gens.
The end result will simply be that the Survivors will respect the Traps that much less because they know they can afford to.
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@Peanits said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1060730#Comment_1060730
I could be convinced otherwise, but I don't see a reason to do that specifically, unless there's a generator at 99% and the killer has been protecting it pretty heavily/you need to stop a 3 gen. Though at that point, the same can be said about any killer. You'd spend just as much time taking the trap off either way you slice it.
Think of it like this:
Reverse Bear Traps are designed such that even in the worst-case scenario (Gen pops while still on the hook; 2 minute timer because of Tampered Timer and let's say either Jigsaw's Sketch or Crate of Gears), Survivors still have a reasonable and fair chance to get the RBT off before it kills them. The odds of getting the Trap off in time have to be in the Survivors' favor because otherwise, it would mean the kill potential on the Traps is too high (or at the very least, the kill rate when paired with add-ons such as Tampered Timer, Crate of Gears, Jigsaw's Sketch, or even Rules Set No. 2).
With that knowledge in mind, when a Survivor is first off the Hook and their timer has not started yet, they have to consider that the odds are by nature in their favor even in the worst-case scenario. Any additional time they have as a result of the death timer not having started yet is much more often than not playing with house money.
Since the goal of a Reverse Bear Trap in Dead By Daylight is to stall for time as opposed to actually kill, the real goal of the Survivors as far as RBTs is to give the Pig as little benefit from those Traps as they can afford to give. If they choose to start hunting down boxes right away, they are pulling themselves off the Gens and giving the Pig more breathing room (which is what the intended goal is for the Traps). If, however, the person with the Trap instead opts to work on a Generator, it results in two things:
1) The progress of the Generators isn't being slowed down any more than normal (at least, not until the Trapped Survivor chooses to start working on Boxes).
2) The Trapped Survivor is less likely to be ignored by the Pig since they are still threatening to push the Survivors closer to their goal. This puts the Pig in the negative position of either leaving the Trapped Survivor to their whims and conceding that progress to the Survivors or going after them and actively preventing the Traps from slowing down gens.
With all this in mind, a competent Survivor should know that if they choose to play it less safe and keep at the Gens for some time, they are reducing the benefit the Pig is getting from those Traps while at the same time still feeling reasonably assured that they still have a good chance of getting the Trap off in time. Even if they are not as confident in that assurance (maybe they are not the best Survivor in the world, which is reasonable), they are still assured that as long as that clock hasn't started, they are in the clear to balance time working on gens and time working on Boxes in whatever way they deem most comfortable/efficient. Do a box, back to gens. Maybe do two boxes, back to gens. They can afford to put in whatever amount of time into gens they feel comfortable with before they decide "Maybe it's time to start working on getting this trap off."
This all means that strong Survivors are able to maximize their amount of time on Gens and delay the stall potential until the Pig has lost a gen, and less strong but still competent Survivors are still able to put some time into Gens and still delay that Trap benefit (even if less than the strong Survivors). Only the weaker Survivors who are not able to properly balance safety and efficiency will not be able/willing to do much other than go right for the boxes (or potentially die due to them overestimating themselves), but at that point, they're probably not the ones the Pig has to worry the most about when it comes to slowing down the game.
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@Peanits said:
It's an interesting question, but I think there's a bit of a loophole in the OP: You don't need to do a generator to take the trap off. If anything, it's probably ideal for you if you don't. You can take your trap off before it's active, and it still slows the game down and takes you away from generators. (This is also why I'd strongly advocate against making Rule Set No. 2 base kit. It forces them to do a generator before searching for boxes.)
On a personal note, I do think it's very fitting that something the survivor does is what activates their trap. It's very fitting to the Saw theme.
You don't need to do a generator to take the trap off. If anything, it's probably ideal for you if you don't.
I think the argument OP is trying to make is that it is actually more ideal on average to simply do the gen anyways and wait until the timer starts before you start pounding away at boxes, which lines up with your reasoning as to why you don't want RSN2 to become base kit.
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@ZtarShot said:
It's a nice buff, but it'd be an instant 4k.
Endgame pig would return, this time more powerful. It would be a little to easy to win.
You could easily rectify the buff to Endgame Pig by simply pausing the EGC timer as long as someone is wearing a Reverse Bear Trap. At that point, it is identical to how it was pre-EGC.
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@Cheers said:
Can someone explain what RBT stands for? Thanks.
Reverse Bear Trap.