SuzuKR
SuzuKR
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@MegMain98 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900415#Comment_2900415
Okay, I’ll bite. How is Nurse in the “spot of perfect balance”? She’s the best killer in the game who completely disregards all defenses and has extremely limited counterplay other than breaking LOS and guessing.
Especially now because she’s bugged not just with the range add-one but also due to the fact that she attacks and swings before you’re even physically able to see her.
Yeah, I’m sorry but her power is absolutely not balanced and never will be but we’ve al just accepted that because, well…it’s Nurse.
Mindgaming is the most crucial aspect of chase no matter what. Breaking LOS is a method to assist with that. Mindgaming is more skillful than having a chase predetermined based off RNG/factors out of either side’s control.
For instance. You are in a dead zone versus a standard 115% killer. There is more or less completely zero you can do. They will just walk up and that is that. Another example. The standard 115 is at an enormously strong setup, such as a long wall jungle gym. There is next to no way for the killer to mindgame in a way the survivor cannot bypass, as the tile is setup in a way that allows the survivor to stay at a safe location with multiple optimal routes either way the killer commits. As such, at high levels, it will take a tremendous amount of time to go through. Again, next to nothing one side can do about it. The factors are already predetermined.
Now, you have Nurse. It is frankly impossible for her to walk up unless the survivor makes a horrible mistake (outside of super niche crap add-ons). So even in a dead zone, she still has to correctly mindgame to land the blink. If she wins, she lands it. If she fails, she doesn’t. But also the same with any other tile. Even at enormously strong setups, it comes down to player skill in mindgame vs mindgame, not map RNG favoring one side overwhelmingly.
Bugs should be fixed. They are not relevant to balance discussions, because they are going to be fixed/aren’t intended.
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I see no possible reason letting a survivor be invincible for 16s while they 99 a heal and then still be invincible for another 44s could be possibly unbelievably busted. Yeah. Seems completely fine.
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@eleventbh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900415#Comment_2900415
"Also it makes completely zero sense mechanically. It’s not a special attack, because she doesn’t attack with the blink. Blinks are exclusively a movement tool. She just attacks regularly after she moves. Compare this to someone like Bubba, who attacks WITH the chainsaw. Or Blight, who attacks WITH the Rush."
Blight and Nurse both attack with their main weapon after use of their power and before their fatigue.
Refer to this:
@SuzuKR said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900966#Comment_2900966
You end Spirit and Wraith’s power to attack with them. Their power is turning invisible/cloaking, respectively. It’s just they have accelerated speed for a small interval after ending the power. Same with Nurse. You blink, finish moving, and then now are basically just standing still in place at the end destination. Your power is over right now unless you go for a chain blink. Her power lasts in intervals of each blink. After said blink ends, she has a chance to attack instead of going for another blink.
Compare this to Blight. You cannot attack at all in any proximity to his power EXCEPT either after completely fatiguing (out of power), or while actively Rushing WITH his power. The comparative example to Nurse here would be if Blight could attack after losing all momentum from the Rush/before Rushing again.
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@eleventbh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900419#Comment_2900419
Hope we're not cherry-picking what stats we follow, SuzuKR.
The VODs are completely publicly available on Twitch and YouTube. I am going off of players of even skill facing off against each other in an evenly-sided map. Hope you’re doing your research before choosing to be snarky, eleventbh.
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@Bwsted said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900631#Comment_2900631
It's not always consistent actually. It's just dictated by practical reasons, which is not a bad thing in and of itself.
Spirit has a speed boost after reappearing with a duration which is dictated by her power. Add-ons can modify that and add-ons affect POWERS.
Wraith, similarly, has a speed boost that is dictated by his power. He even slow downs below 115 when uncloaking and then accelerates BECAUSE of his power.
The biggest offender is probably Myers, as he literally has a different lunge because of his T3.
Nurse is an oddball, because otherwise she wouldn't be able to use basic attacks essentially. But in between blinks she's arguably in her power and she will eventually fatigue. She's almost as if a Blight could pull off a basic attack during a slam. It's not like a Hag, where she teleports and then she's done. I guess she's in one of those situations that could be interpreted either way.
You end Spirit and Wraith’s power to attack with them. Their power is turning invisible/cloaking, respectively. It’s just they have accelerated speed for a small interval after ending the power. Same with Nurse. You blink, finish moving, and then now are basically just standing still in place at the end destination. Your power is over right now unless you go for a chain blink. Her power lasts in intervals of each blink. After said blink ends, she has a chance to attack instead of going for another blink.
Compare this to Blight. You cannot attack at all in any proximity to his power EXCEPT either after completely fatiguing (out of power), or while actively Rushing WITH his power. The comparative example to Nurse here would be if Blight could attack after losing all momentum from the Rush/before Rushing again.
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Enjoyment is subjective, that is valid.
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@anarchy753 said:
I've never understood the categorisation of "basic attacks."
If you want to make perks strong for M1 killers, but weaker on killers that have huge mobility power hits, then sure, but basic attacks have no consistency.
Of the two top tier killers, every hit from Nurse is considered basic, yet power hits from Blight are not.
Every hit from Spirit and Wraith, even those greatly amplified by their post-invis boosts are basic.
No ranged attacks are basic from Huntress, Nemesis, Trickster or Plague, but every hit from Deathslinger is.
A perk like Surge with a built in cooldown is basic attack only because letting people trigger it with power downs is unacceptable, but something like Infectious Fright is fine when it lets Billy and Oni chain 1-hit downs easily.
In my opinion, "basic attacks" should be removed as a concept entirely, with the exception of the exposed status. As far as I can see the only downside in doing so would be Demogorgon having a harder time keeping StBFL stacks, and I've never been fond of that on him anyway.
Nurse is basic attack, because her power is exclusively movement. She does a regular attack after.
Blight attack is special, because he attacks WITH the Lethal Rush.
Spirit/Wraith also only move with their power, before doing a regular attack.
Huntress/Nemesis/Trickster/Plague is attacking WITH the power. Deathslinger only pulls them in, and then does a regular attack. The harpoon itself is not an attack.
Surge shouldn't have a basic attack cooldown. Infectious is balanced, including on killers that can chain-down easily.
It has been nothing BUT consistent.
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NWO is already in a spot of very good balance. It doesn't need buffs.
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I wish people would bring some actual evidence for their claims. I've literally acknowledged myself that her distance add-ons and three blink add-on are unhealthy design, but people can't read I guess, cause they bring it up for some reason anyways. So far, everything that actually exists shows the contrary, for all other points.
- Winrates at high levels of play in even matchups? 2K average.
- Average match one-way stomps? MMR putting good players against worse players because there's not enough of the former - something BHVR explicitly addressed themselves in the Q&A stream.
- Prevents balance? Blatantly false, perks good or amazing for her have been buffed just fine (see Hex: Retribution, No Way Out, etc). Perks good or amazing for her have also been released just fine (see Deadlock, Pain Resonance, Floods of Rage, Starstruck, etc)
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If players can see where the blink is going, that literally defeats the entire point of the mindgame. That makes zero sense.
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@Nicholas said:
DS is too easily circumvented, and really fails at providing the relief that so many people want to say that it does. The timer needs some changes.
It's literally not meant to prevent tunneling. It's only meant to be a discouragement.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900374#Comment_2900374
Agreed. I'm not interested in the semantics and definitions of tunneling. I think self healing is fine. Having it deactivate if the self healer 100% their own heal makes a lot of sense to me, and they could still find another player to cap it off if it was 99'd.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900383#Comment_2900383
This is what Parental Guidance does. It's the new teachable from Yoichi. Seven seconds of no scratch marks, blood pools, or grunts of pain after a stun. This includes DS.
Genius idea, make survivor completely um punishable by the killer while they 99 a heal in front of their face for ~15.999s and then have another 44s of immunity.
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900472#Comment_2900472
Not to pick sides, but what M1 perk replaces that combo right there?
If there’s zero reason to use M1 perks, and most perks are crap, that leaves the only perks worth using to be full slowdown pretty much (outside of some stuff like totem Nurse/BBQ/Shadowborn/etc). Cause nothing else is worth using.
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900453#Comment_2900453
So it’s all about high level then. So since the Twins are “absolute monsters at high level play” I guess they deserve the nerf because high MMR is the only level we should be focused on.
??? I don’t know why you blame balance for matchmaking issues. There are a small number of good players, and even fewer extremely good players. The absolute majority of players are average. For queues to not take hours, the good and amazing players are put with comparatively worse players. Obviously, that makes matches uneven/a definite win. If you paid attention to the Q&A stream, you’d realize BHVR said the exact same thing themselves for regular matches/MMR.
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No reason to. The data proves she’s already in a spot of perfect balance. High level play with even skill matchup/map averages out to only 2K. And no reason to kill perk diversity. Also makes zero mechanical sense, since she’s not attacking with the blink. She does a regular attack after using the blink exclusively to move.
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@Phasmamain said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900419#Comment_2900419
When did we start using data ta mark balance. If that’s the case then pinhead is the best killer in the game
@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900419#Comment_2900419
So you’re basing it off meaningless kill rates? Not taking info consideration that she’s a free killer so new players can play her from the get go? She’s super hard for new players but her skill ceiling is so massively overrated it’s ridiculous.
I’m not talking overall. That’s useless because it’s not controlled for any factors. I’m talking about specifically high levels of play, with evenly skilled players facing each other in an evenly balanced map. As in, actually controlling for relevant variables.
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900415#Comment_2900415
She is not perfectly balanced. She still has 3rd blink (this add-on is so busted) and plus range add-ons kills her all counterplay. I mean you outplayed Nurse but she still can catch you with second blink. Because range add-ons makes this possible.
But even without this add-ons, BHVR can not make strong killer perks. Because they would be so op on Nurse. For example Starstruck is med perk at best but it is so strong on Nurse.
Yes, good job stating the literal exact add-ons I already said were an exception. Also you are blatantly beyond wrong on the second point. Perks that are very good on her have been buffed just fine, like Hex: Retribution/No Way Out’s buff. Perks that are incredible on her have also been released just fine. Like No Way Out post-buff/Deadlock/Pain Resonance/Floods of Rage/etc.
I wish people would actually do their research before making up points.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
Yes, I've said this before, and I think it's a very fair nerf to Nurse that does not destroy her at all. A power as strong as hers should never be allowed to come with an instadown. This would obviously still keep her a very strong killer but reduces stuff like starstruck nurse on midwich or MYC floods of rage nurse which I've already been seeing a lot of.
Imagine if blight could run starstruck and instadown you with a flick. Obviously Iri Tag exists, but it's balanced by being an iridescent and that it only works on the last rush so it requires extra planning.
I realize that this would pretty much kill any basic attack/Exposed perk on her, and while you can make a valid argument for keeping them basic attacks as she is pretty much entirely reliant on her ability to get hits (whereas even the worst Blight for instance could still play M1 killer at 115%), Nurse already breaks a bunch of the fundamental rules of the game and it's not like changing it would make her any less of an anomaly.
I do not believe Nurse needs a full-blown rework or anything, but this change is a good idea in my opinion.
Yes, let’s kill perk diversity for risky perks on an already balanced killer. This is clearly the way.
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It’s like people who call themselves high MMR when there’s literally no way to check. MMR doesn’t give consistently even skill matches anyways, so stuff like usage of meta perks or skill is not indicative either.
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Yes, that is intentional and part of the learning curve. Some items have larger blink boxes and you will have to go/aim further to get past them.
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@GannTM said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900415#Comment_2900415
Perfect balance? You have to be joking.
The data from matches against players of even skill shows as much. She averages out to 2K. Taking perks like Starstruck is a significant risk because all the survivors have to do is bolt in completely separate directions ASAP, and she will lose the majority of time on the Exposed pursuing them. Or be spread out already, and thus not even in the area of effect. Even with Agitation, this is a trade off against good players.
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Why? She’s in a spot of perfect balance with the exceptions of her distance increasing add-ons/three blink add-on. No reason to kill perk diversity on her. Even with Exposed perks, you just have to mindgame to avoid the hits.
Also it makes completely zero sense mechanically. It’s not a special attack, because she doesn’t attack with the blink. Blinks are exclusively a movement tool. She just attacks regularly after she moves. Compare this to someone like Bubba, who attacks WITH the chainsaw. Or Blight, who attacks WITH the Rush.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900408#Comment_2900408
No, it's tunneling.
Skill issue. Don’t get found healing. You don’t get to complain the killer targets you when you’re trying to actively undo their progress. Get good.
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@thrawn3054 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900310#Comment_2900310
Your point? If you bother me before I can heal you deserve to get DS'd. Also considering I'm advocating that it deactivates once healed it's a lateral move at worst.
That’s literally your own fault for going down in that situation. It’s not tunneling. It’s the killer finding someone who’s trying to undo their progress again.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900342#Comment_2900342
Nurse's range addons are healthy for the game, because we have large maps, and her sustained map traversal speed is terrible without any range addons.
If Nurse is on a large map, range addons encourage her to actually traverse the map, instead of just staying near a hooked survivor. If Nurse is on a large map without range addons, she is heavily encouraged to proxy camp every hooked survivor, because she's way too slow to leave a hooked survivor to patrol generators on a large map without range addons.
Large maps should be reduced also. Multiple things can be addressed simultaneously.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
I think healing shouldn’t deactivate DS. I think the nerf was a smidge too much. Doing gens and bones without consequences makes a lot of sense. Healing less so.
@thrawn3054 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900204#Comment_2900204
Agreed. I think self healing shouldn't deactivate it. In exchange I think it should deactivate once you're fully healed.
If you are healing, you’re not being tunneled. Or you’re healing and the killer simply found you again, which is not tunneling. You are trying to undo their progress, they are stopping it.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900025#Comment_2900025
Your math is really bad though. Nurse's sustained map traversal speed is actually terrible without any range addons, and your math was so terribly bad that the entire post should be thrown out.
Big maps being bad design is something that should be changed regardless. Distance addons are still bad design.
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A killer with a lot of mobility and strong anti-loop, but in an interactive and healthy manner that can be evenly mindgamed via skill (like Nurse and Blight).
Non-humanoid/bipedal killers. Eg, quadrupedal or swarming formless masses, insect-like, etc.
More cultural mythological killers, like what BHVR did with skins for Minotaur/Baba Yaga/etc.
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Other than distance addons and Torn Bookmark, everything else about Nurse is perfectly designed and balanced.
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@Leonardo1ita said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2893925#Comment_2893925
No need to attach a video, you just need to test in game to clearly see it.
You are supposed to attach a video so people can see the issue immediately.
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Because most people do not know how to play well against either, and matchmaking inherently cannot always give even skill matches when there are way too few good players on in a region at any given moment. So the good and god players are paired with worse players, and obviously, that ends up with the better side winning, except people blame that as a balance issue instead. Neither are actually a problem, outside of Torn Bookmark/distance blink add-ones/Alchemist Ring/Compound 33.
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@VoidOfMe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2898355#Comment_2898355
so, what's with the big wave of mmr complain?
If there's so few good players, why seems like everyone on social media says mmr is awful and how their games are sweaty and unballanced, and SWF this SWF that?
I don't get it.
Too few good player = too much bad players = most of the games should be easy
Right?
People complain about anything and everything.
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@VoidOfMe said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2898286#Comment_2898286
I mean, a quick search on youtube for nurse gameplay from "pros" says the oposite, tho.
It's the one thing I don't understand about these MMR complaints. These content creators keep complaining about sweaty games, but then you go look their content and there's almost always 4k games. I won't name names, but I was at twitch these days watching this steamer getting 4k's left and right, every single game, he would only lose to hatch sometimes and I was really surprised when I saw him complaining about MMR these days on twitter.
What's the thing there?
You do realize there are very few good players right? BHVR addressed this themselves in the Q&A stream. There are not enough of them on in any region at any given moment to consistently give them even-skill matches. So the game puts them with lower skill players, so their queues don't take hours. Watching actual organized matches (competitive and non-competitive KYF) proves it. Also content creators can have stupid takes.
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@VoidOfMe said:
let's keep it real
I'm not a good killer at all, I'm ok.ish, I have plenty of games where I can't get even a 2k.
So I tried to play nurse and... I can't remember the last time I didn't have a 4k playing her.
I find her so broken that I don't really like playing her and the fact that I manage to kill everyone, even missing tons of blinks, I can't really defend her like some people here are doing.
Maybe it's because I don't know how to play against her? Maybe I never found a survivor who didn't know either? I don't what's wrong, but if I can 4k with nurse, anyone can.
That's a matchmaking issue, not a balance issue. She consistently performs evenly ~(2K average) when against people who are equally good.
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@dreamsy10 said:
As i said, first let's fix the actual annoying and "OP" things in this game which are obv, swf and dead hard. Let me ask all of you this question.
How many times per day you see nurse? And then how many times -per match- you see dead hards or how many times you go against a sweat squad? Eh.
And yes i'm not here to defend her addons, as I don't care but there are other bigger problems in this game than her addons. Let's not forget that many killer's stopped playing this game since mmr.
One thing being an issue does not mean other things are not also an issue. They can be addressed and acknowledged simultaneously.
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Rework Torn Bookmark (+1 Blink)/distance add-ons, and everything about Nurse will be perfect.
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@dreamsy10 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2898221#Comment_2898221
You guys won't stop until all killer's are nerfed so there won't be any killer in que, don't you? Her addons overall are fine, don't forget it takes actual skill and time to play her even with her "op range addons". If you change her range addons then first time you change the map sizes, since even nurse struggles against bad big maps and therefore some nurses play's with range since map design in this game is really bad.
??? I consider Nurse by far the best-designed and best-balanced killer in the entire game by a landslide. Her distance add-ons are not good design, but not OP against most players. Her recharge add-ons is good design. Map size/map design are problems of their own and need addressing regardless.
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As a frequent Nurse player, I agree. Recharge is healthy, distance isn't. Even while recharge is strong, against good players, all it does is let you try again after a miss sooner. You still do have to win the mindgame regardless at some point to land a hit. With distance add-ons, it changes how you are able to land a hit entirely to an unneeded point. Even though it really only is OP at extremely high levels of play/balanced for the majority of players (because average players are just not good on either side), it is just fundamentally bad design, and thus should be changed.
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@Megmain80 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2895766#Comment_2895766
Gaslighting from a killer main I see
Fun fact, just cause someone disagrees with you does not make them a killer main.
Sincerely, someone that plays both sides evenly.
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Go to the other gate/other side? This is a complete non-issue. You all dying is 100% your fault there.
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The killswitch is used for game-breaking bugs or balance issues. Dead Hard is neither.
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There is a distinctive animation to the hooking in which you can let go at the correct moment to avoid the Pain Resonance scream last-second. All they have to do is just not trigger the scream. Wraith then (probably) pursues a survivor on a gen and that one generator becomes blocked, and the people on the other gens just do those ones.
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Add-ons should be balanced regardless of pairing or not, not specifically around pairing. Items are not comparable to powers. Strong items/item add-ons would be absolutely beyond overpowered if they lasted forever. Survivors do not have it, because there are 4 of them and that would break the balance. Silent bell is a non-issue and only shines hard on indoor maps. All-seeing has already been nerfed (albeit in an unhelpful way, but still).
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Twins/Myers/Trickster are most in need in my opinion.
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Not cheating but no reason to show it.
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skill issue
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I think your title should be less combative. I think using it to dodge attacks is good design and healthy. It can be baited. It being used for distance to a loop is unhealthy, which BHVR correctly realized. It cannot be baited. Not a survivor main. I play both sides evenly.
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Hm. Probably Twins. Cool concept, but falls apart in execution. Or maybe Trickster, because he either insta-dominates loops his power works on, or is useless if the loop prevents him using his power. I have no clue why people are saying Nurse.
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Can you attach a video example?
The maximum blink duration is 1.5 seconds and the minimum is 0.25 seconds (based off distance). I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about.
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Way too abusable.
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No. BHVR has an ACM that reviews everything and can tell the difference.