SuzuKR
SuzuKR
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The only way to “fix” camping would be to fundamentally redesign the game. It is a strategy this game is balanced around that devs themselves acknowledge and support.
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Solo survivor should be buffed to level of SWF (in terms of access to info), and killer should be rebalanced around every player always being a “SWF” information level-wise.
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- Quitting matches
- Intentionally playing for the purpose of angering others
- Cheating/etc (breaking rules)
Anyone that does any of these 3 should re-evaluate themselves.
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I disagree. Counterplay is good. But hard counters are bad design. The counter should be player skill. This is why Nurse and Blight are the two best-designed killers by a massive margin. The only way to beat them is to out mindgame them with player skill. They can counter both hold W and looping, but the survivor can also evade them by being better at mindgaming.
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@eleventbh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2901798#Comment_2901798
I've seen good players in a SWF against Nurses in tournaments so I guess if there is an example of high level play in pubs I would like to see it. When it comes to balance I don't think BHVR cares too much about them though, they care more about the average player.
Just going to preface this with two things first. People usually only upload YouTube videos of wins, and most of the popular content creators are all fairly or amazingly good players, which brings me to the second point. MMR is unreliable, especially at that level of skill, because as even BHVR said, there is not enough of them for consistently even skill matches in pubs. This is why you see good players/said content creators dominate most matches regardless of side or build. Also 99% of videos saying "high mmr/rank 1/etc" are just clickbait garbage. It's pretty clear when players are actually good, because you will see how they change up playstyle against the Nurse. Same for how the Nurse responds to mindgames.
I am not including scrims, as I still consider that part of tournament (since it is tournament practice). However, some videos will be against competitive players/partial competitive player teams in non-tournament settings (eg, pubs or non-tournament KYF, similar to how content creators will organize matches against each other). Finding genuinely even matches for those absurdly good players is very rare. Fully even builds are even rarer, so keep in mind that it won't apply necessarily. (Eg, some people going hyper top meta, others with less meta or non-meta perks, etc). Some are just 1v1 clips between good players, to show that they can run them for a good amount of time in an actual chase.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4ZHFVowqws> Fubs vs partial tournament SWF in regular non-tournament KYF
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_R-gkMwKpA> SupaAlf on MMR Test Day 3 (skill matching prioritized over queue time)
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnjfG_sLfQg> SupaAlf 1v1s (Yerv/SuperAaronNova/Vizion) - Vizion's runs are particularly of note here
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig_iQ5S-ABA> SupaAlf 1v1s (Fubs/Sweh/Otz)
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30TKsT-s8Y8> Ayrun's gameplay versus a decent Nurse
Hope that helps!
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I wonder when people will stop calling strategies unfair. There is no such thing as an unfair strategy.
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Because it’s not meant to prevent it, because that would be busted. Tunneling is a strategy with pros and cons that can be punished via smart play from the survivors. DS is a perk meant to discourage reckless tunneling by giving a large time window with which good survivors can make a ton of progress.
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@malloymk said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2904019#Comment_2904019
If it's truly an anti tunnel perk, why not give the survivor a chance to actually gain distance and lose the killer? Instead it's a tunnel delay perk. Ope, got ds'd and the survivor is still well within distance for me to down them again in 15 seconds.
Because it’s not an anti tunnel perk nor is it meant to be, because that would be busted. It is a one time discouragement of reckless tunneling since the stun allows for good survivors to punish the killer strongly for doing so. It is in a state of perfect balance as is.
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@eleventbh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903801#Comment_2903801
Starstruck isn't the only exposing perk and I wasn't even talking about that. Also the idea wasn't mine, it just minorly fixes the problem people have of Nurses getting insta-downs easier than killers with basekit insta-downs and I like that more than making all blinks special attacks.
"Is she not going to have fatigue if you consider the first blink attack a special attack?" I said the first blink could be a basic attack, not special, so I assume that's what you meant. They are functionally different as they are called "blink" and "chain blink", and chain blinks are shorter and need to be activated after a normal blink. Lastly, if you meant "Is she not going to have fatigue if you consider the first blink attack a basic attack?", my answer is no. She already uses basic attacks that grant her fatigue, why would this be any different?
Exposed isn’t a problem though on her.
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Well yeah. People get it confused the other way around because their perspective is distorted by most of the killers being below the standard they should strive to be. Nurse and Blight are in a good spot (minus distance/three blink/Alch ring/c33). The others aren’t bad by any means, just below an exemplary standard of design and balance.
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Why would they need a nerf?
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Game player counts are cyclic always for lots of reasons.
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Why would she be nerfed?
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None of them. That’s dickish to the people that love that character.
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People always have a right to complain. Doesn’t mean it needs to be listened to.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903485#Comment_2903485
If you count the time it takes to bless a Totem, it takes longer than using Self-Care
I think CoH is fine but your point is misleadingly simple.
Self-Care is 32.
Blessing a dull is 14. CoH self heal without anything else is 21s. 35 total for one self heal. It immediately redeems itself with 2 self heals.
CoH ally heal is ~18.2s. 32s for one ally heal. It redeems itself with 2 ally heals (eg 2 injured people healing each other).
CoH shines because it pays back its value very easily.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903436#Comment_2903436
I would agree with the current metric of Gates counting as an escape, but not with Hatch counting as a tie, not a proper escape.
If Hatch counts as a win for the system then I would unconditionally agree.
So they can die, or finish the gens and go through the gate. Problem solved.
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@Nicholas said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/319107/grabbing-off-the-hook-promotes-camping
It's not just you, I have specifically let go many times because I'm pretty good at the timing and still sometimes get lag grabbed. You see your character let go and then a second later you're getting grabbed.
This is cause of latency and it is unavoidable, since both sides have to predict the future.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903420#Comment_2903420
I don't understand the point you are trying to make in the first sentence. They haven't lost until more Survivors escape through the Exit Gates than died. That is the current metric. Win Tie Tie Tie is still net win, Win Win Tie Tie is also still net win. Hatch is not a win. It is "I want to get out of this match, but I don't want the DC penalty or to award Hook points".
People do not deserve escapes or kills without finishing the objective.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903398#Comment_2903398
Except DS exists, and Flashlights exist and toolboxes to sabo exist and Unbreakable exists and Pallet stunning exists and Power Struggle exists and Breakout exists need I go on? If you want to ignore every other mechanic of the game to rescue from downed state or on the shoulder then you can argue in bad faith or ignorance I suppose.
Wow, just like killer preventing the last few gens popping and preventing gates from opening by killing the others. Funny how that works. All the things that prevent them finalizing their objective that can be played around. But yes, you are clearly in a position to lecture others about bad faith and ignorance. 🙄 Keep ignoring “every other mechanic of the game” to prevent escape I guess.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903386#Comment_2903386
Except it isn't? The degrees of success are different. 1 Hook Mori is 33%. 2 Hook Mori is 66%. 2 man hatch escape at worst is 60%. Simple math disproves that.
Sorry, you are completely off the mark. Mori requires them being downed as well. The only difference is execution or hooking. 1 hookstate and downed is effectively a second hook in 99% of scenarios - 66.66%. 2 hook states and downed is effectively a third hook in 99% of scenarios - 100%.
Rewarding people for failing to complete their goal is insanely busted.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903337#Comment_2903337
Flashlights can be easily baited and avoided/turned into a kill on the person with it instead. Pallet drops can be baited out to dodge the stun. The one and only way for the killer to avoid DS of their effort is to forfeit the down they earned for 60s or redo the entire chase after a 5s stun. Furthermore, tunneling is a strategy with specific situations where it is stupid to not tunnel.
No, you can avoid DS by simply not chasing down a person who was unhooked within the last 60 seconds, unless you catch them disabling their own DS. You can also avoid DS by waiting out its remainder, which will not be 60 seconds unless the person literally got slapped down the moment they were pulled off the hook, in which case you have already been handed the entire game on a silver platter and that 5 second stun won't stop you.
Yes, Tunnelling is a strategy. So is running DS.
NOED doesn’t punish doing the objective. It punishes not remembering (NOT not doing) the secondary objectives. Remember totem spawns and any totems you see along the way. Re-check and destroy NOED if it appears, or just leave. NOED is simple to play around and get rid of, and is not that problematic unless someone was already death hook.
So NOED, which requires you to memorise all totem spawns and/or active totem locations while coordinating that with a team with which you cannot communicate, is 'simple to play around and get rid of', but it's hard for you to not go after a person who was just unhooked, or just refuse to hit spacebar once they're down?
There is a limit to accommodations.
Yes, there is. But this sure as hell ain't where it's at.
And not tunneling, like I said, is a dumb decision in several scenarios. I think DS is fine as is. It does not need any more help. I agree DS in its current state is good and healthy design.
NOED doesn’t need team coordination, you can do it yourself. You are oversimplifying the argument. Yeah, you can just choose not to go after the person off hook. It’s also still a stupid decision in multiple scenarios to not chase that person. Totems spawn off a few rules for their possible locations. Check them while playing normally and going around the map, and check them later or just leave. NOED is not that strong despite its bad design (since it can activate without the killer doing anything).
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@mizark3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903375#Comment_2903375
There are degrees of success, and if I collapse on the 24th mile of a marathon, it was still good to make it that far.
Yeah, and that’s the exact same god awful logic that allowed for 1 hook Moris to exist. They got partway so might as well give them the whole thing.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903362#Comment_2903362
I'm trying to learn how to play. I'm at Devotion 22, but the low fps and frame drops are still kicking my ass. I just don't understand, how many more hours do I need before I become skilled and can finally use DS?
There is a limit to accommodations. It’s like removing the skillcheck system entirely because some people lag and cannot hit them well.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903306#Comment_2903306
It only ends prematurely if someone in the match for forced to not have fun in the first place. Therefore punishing unfun with unfun. The killer knows they won if survs have to escape through Hatch. It is a consolation prize, not a trophy. The bent and crooked tin star that says "you tried".
Tunneling =/= forcing unfun. They don’t deserve a consolation prize when they didn’t succeed.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903307#Comment_2903307
They didn't fully fail their objective though. They got 60% for a 2 man, or 80% for a 3 man. It only punishes killers for unfun actions in the first place (hard targeting one person out). So this would incentivize spreading the pain. It only would spawn when you had killed survivors number of gens remaining (or less).
If they escape through hatch in a 3 gen scenario it is more like the Monty Python Black Knight calling it a draw after his arms and legs are all chopped off. The killer knows they won, the survivors know the killer won, and they would rather take a hatch escape rather than a slog like tug of war/war of attrition or suicide on hook. If the survs could do the gens then they know they could and would still win anyways.
That is failing their goal. Also tunneling is a strategy the devs acknowledge and balance this game around. People don’t deserve an out when they don’t finish their job. That’s why Mori got changed to second hook. Being second hook and downed is basically the same as being third hooked regardless. Just like having all gens done but gates not being powered would be the reasonable parallel. Which is why I’m okay when every single gen is done, not before.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
In a world where killers can only grab injured survivors, killers can still camp (or proxy or be super strategy guy as Suzu says) the hook and apply pressure there. Just not the automatic down with a grab.
I think killers are crutching on this mechanic too much rather than taking (and learning to win) chases.
Punishing non reckless camping is stupid and unnecessary.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903145#Comment_2903145
If you hit 4 or 5 pallets in that chase, you're not hitting DS. Not to mention that all of this can be avoided if the target you're going after is -not- the one that just got pulled off the hook.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903206#Comment_2903206
why should the Killer get punished for removing them in order to slow down gens in order to buy more time to kill?
Because the killer is the one that decided to faceplant directly into the opponent's perk. The same way a killer gets punished for actively staring directly into a flashlight, or chasing under a pallet when the survivor drops it.
You have the option to counterplay it, and it's not hard, either. It's one of the most avoidable perks in the entire game.
Let's draw an analogy to the other side: If the survivors genrush the killer down and then NOED pops, should the survivors get punished for doing their objective?
Or would you say that the survivors
decided to faceplant directly into the opponent's perk
?
EDIT: To answer the topic at hand, the skill check is a remnant of DS's original form, which I believe could be used without requiring being hooked first. It needed more drawbacks back then, this was one of them. Now that DS has settled into its new role, it can definitely afford to be made unmissably easy. It should still stay as a skillcheck, just because it's a neatly tied up way to ensure that DS is used very shortly after being picked up, to save killers having to walk all the way up to the hook and then having the survivor jump off last second.
Flashlights can be easily baited and avoided/turned into a kill on the person with it instead. Pallet drops can be baited out to dodge the stun. The one and only way for the killer to avoid DS of their effort is to forfeit the down they earned for 60s or redo the entire chase after a 5s stun. Furthermore, tunneling is a strategy with specific situations where it is stupid to not tunnel.
NOED doesn’t punish doing the objective. It punishes not remembering (NOT not doing) the secondary objectives. Remember totem spawns and any totems you see along the way. Re-check and destroy NOED if it appears, or just leave. NOED is simple to play around and get rid of, and is not that problematic unless someone was already death hook.
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@malloymk said:
I say this. Keep the skill check. If they hit it the killer's stun timer increases by 1, 2, or 3 seconds depending on the perk tier. If they miss it, they still get the default 5 second stun.
5s is already an insanely strong stun. Also DS does not need buffs.
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@Leguś said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903301#Comment_2903301
Even making it 24s "static" seconds would've been nice. Not perfect but something more tolerable.
The reason it is double is because it removes the need for a teammate. Instead of two survivors being busy for 16 seconds, it’s only one, and that one survivor can be busy doing something else instead of healing - essentially removing the need for a regular medkit self heal for the 16s. 24 is still efficient for one person passive self-heal.
The reason static is important is because it should be a very large risk because it gives such an absurdly strong effect. Nothing should speed it up ever. Nothing slowing it down either is consistency reasons.
The reason it’s longer than 16s is because it being so strong and extra efficient more than just a 2X speed boost is unacceptable for a passive heal. It should be slower in order to compensate for said strength.
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Yeah no. No one except the last person alive should ever have a chance for hatch. Escaping before all gens are done is awful design and punishes the killer for playing well/rewards survivors for failing their objective or getting 3-genned (which is their fault). The only other fair compromise is once every single generator is done.
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It is completely beyond busted and unhealthy design. It allows for simultaneous healing while working on another action. That by itself is already absurdly powerful. Take this example:
Without Syringe, healing requires either a medkit or teammate for a standard 16 seconds. With CoH only/Self-Care/healing penalties/etc, it’s even slower. And then afterwards, you can spend another 16s on a generator or Exit Gate switch or teammate heal or whatever else.
With Syringe, you simultaneously do both. It’s twice as efficient, but actually even stronger because even a 2X speed isn’t as strong. Even if the heal was 8s instead, if you get interrupted in those 8s, it’s effectively useless until they can finish it, as if they never tried to heal. Also even if you get interrupted after, that means less time on anything else. Eg, interrupted 10s in is only 2s of progress on something else.
With Syringe, you lose zero time on either and can passively finish off the heal while escaping even if interrupted. Eg, interrupted 10s in is 10s of progress on something else.
It needs to be a static 32 seconds. AKA, no matter what, nothing can change how long it takes. It should be less efficient than a regular heal because it is passive and allows for working on other actions, removes the need for a teammate, and even allows running/escaping if you get interrupted anyways. 32 seconds makes it far more risky, because you are essentially betting you will not be interrupted or hit for all 32 seconds while you work on something else.
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@Steel_Eyed said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2903229#Comment_2903229
Two health state grabs are encouragement for losing killers. Losing killers should still have to earn their kills.
Removing unhook grabs or nerfing them in any capacity doesn’t punish only reckless camping. It hurts strategic/smart camping and rewards people recklessly unhooking in front of the killer’s face.
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It’s not difficult with practice. Also DS isn’t meant to counter tunneling. It’s meant to be a disincentive, which it does just fine. There’s no reason to remove the skillcheck.
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Myers/Twins/Trickster in my opinion.
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It exists so people can’t just unhook in front of the killer’s face.
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@dugman said:
I think Dead Hard should be two separate perks, one perk that lets you lunge for distance but you can still be hit, and another that lets you be very briefly invulnerable but that doesn’t give extra distance. Both effects are useful on their own that they’d see use.
That solves nothing. Distance dash on demand is busted and unhealthy design.
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@Chad246emr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2902977#Comment_2902977
Agreed, but boil over is a perk to assist with wiggling out. I’m less so referring to situations where the map always ensures there’s no hook that can be reached and more so referring to using that perk and then falling in an area that makes it almost (but not entirely) impossible to get hooked because of how the perk works. I’ve seen a general consensus that people feel boil over is often “abused” so I was curious to dig in there a bit.
I don’t consider it abuse. It is a perk working as intended. Abuse implies it’s unintended. Do I think the perk is healthy design? Not really. If it’s good, it’s busted. If it’s not, it’s really underwhelming and niche. I don’t think it needed the most recent nerf.
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DH for dodging can be countered by baiting it. DH for distance is uncounterable to the majority of killers.
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Unless there is either:
- Bodyblocking
- Hook sabotaging/destruction
- Perks to assist with wiggling out
- Killer doesn’t know the map/ran into walls/etc
- Anything in this same vein I might’ve forgotten
, there should never be a spot on the map that makes it impossible to reach a hook in time otherwise, as that is bad design.
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Low cause I have a potato PC
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No one should expect anything other than a game experience with as ideally few cheaters as possible.
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@ThatOneDemoPlayer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2902510#Comment_2902510
I don't know anything about Spirit but I'll tell you a cool fact about Demogorgon:
Demogorgon's Shred is the fastest Power in the game, as it increases the Demogorgon's speed to 460%, or 18.4 Meters
Depends on if you count projectiles (Trickster is faster than Huntress/Deathslinger who are equal), and Victor’s pounce.
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@Gcarrara said:
Like predators missles in Call of Duty? 😁
Yeah, exactly like that.
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Cause people heard Spirit was nerfed, and assumed it meant she’s terrible now. She’s still a plenty strong killer, and still 3rd strongest. Just weaker than before but also healthier, since survivors know when she’s actually using her power and the general direction. The changes brought her closer to the level of amazing design of Nurse/Blight. Still strong, new very nice add-ons, but also gives sufficient information and even chance for the survivor to mindgame back.
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@TruEternity said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2901865#Comment_2901865
Let me clarify if there is confusion, I have success with nurse, the last 10 games I’ve played with her I’ve had 8 4k’s/3k and a hatch. That means nothing, there have been mmr tests and because of that matchmaking has been even more wonky than normal. I have no idea what my mmr is, and since it is hidden without external programs I will not know until BHVR makes it visible. When I use range add ons the games are significantly easier, because they can cover for and misplaced blinks. My point is if an average mechanical player as myself can 4K 70-80% of the time with those add ons, they are more than likely too good, and in my opinion they are far too good.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2901876#Comment_2901876
You misunderstand, the best counter to Nurse is to gain distance when she blinks poorly, not her blinking from a far distance. For example, Nurse misses a set of blinks and goes into cool down, if the survivor can get distance they absolutely want to. Range add ons mitigate that penalty to the Nurse player as they can blink farther than normal with both add ons. It’s so substantial that those first set of blinks have a much smaller time penalty, removing one of the only two counter plays to Nurse.
I agree range add-ons are bad design but your win rate is kind of a bad argument considering you yourself literally acknowledged how MMR is.
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@CaulDrohn said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900486#Comment_2900486
We could make Nurse Lunge special and buff the named perks to compensate, for example. Like what was done with Third seal, make Surge and Sloppy work with special attacks as well. With Surge/Jolt, I think thats unproblematic, since there's still the cooldown. With Sloppy, it might be too much for certain killers (Legion) and maybe would have to be toned down a bit.
That approach would allow to nerf the problematic perk synergies (aka exposed perks), but keep the other perk synergies in tact. And it would increase the synergies of said perks with other killers.
Exposed synergy isn't problematic.
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Why do people keep posting the kill stat graphs BHVR disclaimers themselves as being basically meaningless? First of all, MMR doesn't even give consistently even matches always. Second of all, those images separate for literally zero factors. All killers, all build types, all maps, all skill level and matchup types, all other RNG (tile generation/etc) types, etc. That's like having a chart showing 100% of people who drank water died. It tells you basically nothing.
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@eleventbh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2901596#Comment_2901596
Can you specify what VODS you were talking about? Sorry for misunderstanding, I only see tournaments used to justify Nurse's balance at high level play. I believe Blight and Nurse are fine with their basekit, just that perks/addons can make them unbalanced for the average survivor team.
@konchok said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2900419#Comment_2900419
Please reference what stats you are referring to.
Just to clarify, are you looking for extremely good players versus extremely good players? Or just random average players versus other random average players?
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@eleventbh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2901575#Comment_2901575
Perfect balance means strongest killer apparently. They also go off of tournaments for balancing statistics so I'm not surprised.
Have you considered that Nurse and Blight are where they should be and the others are all subpar to varying extents is what’s causing the bias? Also I’m not going off only tournaments. I don’t know why you got that idea. Also even in tournaments, chases still happen, and god-level survivors versus god-level Nurses perform just fine at mindgaming. Everything else in competitive is pretty much useless for discussion of regular DBD, but the chases serve as clear proof even the highest skill players can be beaten back evenly.