Skillfulstone
Skillfulstone
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@LapisInfernalis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3715103#Comment_3715103
What about stepping in Trapper traps?
The rest seems OK and I really like that idea. I would not make it longer than 10s though.
Trapper's traps (or even Hag traps) aren't exactly a "catch-up" tool. The (theoretical) DS stun would not do anything to previously set traps as they can hardly be used to negate DS like Blight's/Billy's Rushes and Dashes or other Killers's projectiles.
The baseline for the code is already in the game in the form of Refined Serum (temporarily replaces Killer power with one-use speed burst) all they have to do is replace "speed boost" with "nothing" or "play x sound effect to announce to the player their power is disabled" alongside tweaking the duration.
Scott made a video on it already and he had good points.
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Yeah, if those changes go past a PTB it won't change much perk-wise and will just make the game even more stressful for weaker/M1 Killers while changing little for the powerhouses. The "Anti-3-gen" single-handedly makes Pop and Pain Res objectively the best choices due to offering good slowdown for a single regression event (it takes 4 regression events from Eruption, since Eruption needs an initial kick to even work, to reach what Pain Res does in a single one. Same goes for Surge, there's whole threads with videos showing how easy it is to accidentally chew through regression events even without 3-genning with those perks).
They were already popular picks before but 7.5.0 effectively threw every other regression perks (and most non-regression kick perks) away due to risk of hitting the regression limit if the Killer faces decent teams that don't go down easy (if the Killer steamrolls then sure the limit doesn't really matter but then it's a non-factor anyway). If the system kicked-in at 1 or 2 gens remaining it would be another story.
There's a reason tunnelling/proxy-camping increased, alongside a rise in Survivors going next on 1st hook because they anticipate getting tunnelled out anyway, after 7.5.0 and only got worse when many non-regression options (STBFL, Sloppy/all mangle and hemmorhage options, recently Ultimate Weapon etc.) got nerfed which meant that, against decent Survivors, Pop and Pain Res alongside a more aggressive playstyle was the way to go.
Most of the (recently announced) Killer changes are fine, although Wesker's infection won't offer nearly as much built-in slowdown (which gave more time, which meant slowdown perks & tunnelling were less important) and will be basically ignored by decent Survivors if all the nerfs go through.
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Yeah.....
The slowdown part of Wesker's power (urgency to find spray and cure infection to avoid heavy penalty+insta-down) is basically gone the moment you start going against decent teams if all these changes go live as-is.
A recently unhooked infected Survivor wouldn't jump right back on a gen (at least not for long) due to being (likely) injured and 50% infected. With a full timer post-hook and a gutted hindered effect there's no reason to not go back to slamming gens immediately after healing (or forego healing entirely) until the infection reaches dangerous levels which takes ages.
The indirect slowdown that the infection gave was one of the things that made him able to not tunnel since Survivors would waste time curing infection.
By trying to remove tunnelling these changes will just make it more common for those that didn't tunnel before.
I'd honestly understand one of the two nerfs (preferably the hindered reduction) but both is a bit much. Good Survivors will just ignore the infection and with 8 uses of spray it'll be next to impossible to run out. It doesn't look like much but those two changes will merely make non-tunnellers have more issues (any Killer can tunnel and get results, some are just better at it) while being a mild inconvenience to tunnelers that didn't really rely on max infection (which still took a while even starting at 50%).
Good Wesker players will likely have to play more aggressively (between infection nerf and yet another slowdown nerf) since infection will be less of a factor.
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Ok the latest announced update (with further nerfs to gen slowdown in the form of Pain Res, Pop, Grim Embrace and Deadlock all being nerfed while at the same time giving a 20% nerf to DS) is just ridiculous. Congrats to those who screamed long and loud enough: the only viable options at a higher level for weaker/M1 Killers are now even weaker.
(Also rip to Wesker, infection will barely pose any kind of threat or slowdown due to how long it takes to fill up from 0, with how many sprays there are, running out will be next to impossible since Survivors won't be pressured into curing. Guess one of the most fun yet not broken Killers needed to be toned down.)
The worst part is that it won't change the meta (except maybe lower Grim Embrace pickrate) because even with nerfs, Pop and Pain Res are STILL the best options since they use less regression events and are less likely to accidentally trigger the "Anti-3-gen" early.
With even weaker slowdown and a DS nerf, it will just make tunnelling/slugging/camping even worse than ever because how else are weaker/M1 Killers supposed to compete when climbing the ladder?
Pain Res had a maximum of 4 uses (with no guarantee to not accidentally waste a token on a gen that has barely any progress or a nearly-finished gen that gets completed anyway before you can stop it) and required fresh hooks (y'know, not tunnelling) to work.
Deadlock only ever worked on 1 gen at a time, which means that Survivors that split up (which is the better strat which is most common when climbing the MMR ladder) will be least affected by it.
Grim Embrace is getting a small nerf, but why even nerf it? It was a perk that encouraged not tunnelling and that really wasn't anything special unless brought with DMS.
I'm not sure what's the goal here, variety is just going down every updates at this point. They say that the best slowdown is a dead Survivor. Well, it's only getting more true over time.
At least remove the Anti-3-gen before there is only 1 or 2 gens left (to account for potential 4 gen setups because of bad spawns and certain Killers) because it's getting ridiculous when every ways to get more time except tunnelling someone out asap is getting nerfed/restricted, people need more viable options, not less.
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@alpha5 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3714496#Comment_3714496
What do you even mean when you say you play assassin? I have no idea what that is supposed to mean in DBD context.
Going by a lot of his posts (which tends to call Killers "assassins" or other similar term), I assume he's either using a translation app or is simply trying to avoid repetition when writing.
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As annoying as it can be to be forced to play M1 for long stretches of time (at mid-high level, newcomers/inexperienced Survivors get rid of Victor asap) if a Survivor decides to keep Victor for 30 seconds then even if you are in no position to down that Survivor (due to distance and/or tile strength) then that's a Survivor that can't do anything to progress the game and gives info if he goes by other Survivors.
The PTB Twins was beyond busted and couldn't go live but at least we got a couple QOL updates, and who knows, maybe someday the Twins will get a true overhaul.
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@Mooks said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3713367#Comment_3713367
even if nothing in the update was related to the basement
To be fair, last update included the upgrade from Unreal Engine 4 to 5 so that definitely was related to the basement. And lights. And the whole game.
(again, no excuse or apologizing for this, just explanation)Yeah, and the rubberbanding & lag was an understandable consequence of that, but the lights specifically in basement?
Hell, it's been months and Nemesis (not that he's really worth playing at a high level since 7.5.0, like most weaker/M1 Killers) still have his tier-up tentacle animation messed up despite not being touched in the update.
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I honestly believe that it's a mix of extreme spaghetti code and perks that can influence sounds that make it harder than it should be.
Let's not forget that the latest update broke the whole game for a while and caused seizure-inducing lights in basement even if nothing in the update was related to the basement.
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Ah yes, because having to run real quick because real life intervenes I'm forced to take a DC penalty? It's bad enough that the Engine update made the server crash happen at least once every two days (amongst countless other issues) now people couldn't even go in a locker (if available) or go afk for a bit to do their thing and come back.
30 seconds is nowhere near enough. The idle crows are already fine, with the extreme popularity of slugging for 4 minutes (which triggers crows for some reason and tbh it shouldn't even exist when everyone is slugged/only 2 Survivors remain) then people would trigger the timer non-stop.
Killers have that kind of "afk timer" because the whole trial is basically over if the Killer decides to try to circumvent the DC penalty by going afk, one Survivor idling for a bit before coming back won't end the game.
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The issue in this case is how the MMR system works for Killers.
Every Killer have their own separate MMR (so that experienced players playing a Killer for the first time won't end up against the SWAT comp teams that they face when playing a Killer with which they have thousands of hours on) so allowing players to switch Killers mid-lobby would make people able to search with a Killer they have 0 experience with (tricking the mmr system into putting them against low mmr Survivors) to then switch to their main before the game starts and utterly stomp.
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@MrRetsej said:
Uuuuuh. Is this a bug? This was in my loadout screen as of 04/30/2024.
15 meters around the locker you just opened is worthless.Damn, I knew they wanted to kill Ultimate Weapon but it's beyond that.
Like, I genuinely believe this perk serves absolutely no reliable purpose as it is now,15 meters is nothing, hopefully it's a bug or whatnot because while I get wanting to stop people from complaining the previous version was still a tad more useful than this.
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Weirdly enough, it seems that it's kinda map-dependant.
Scratch marks in Lerys or Midwich are decent for me but I constantly lose them in Autohaven, Garden of Joy or Red Forest.
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The Engine update has broken a lot of things and is sometimes causing rubberbanding and lag no matter the ping.
Eventually BHVR will fix it and the game will be stable again.
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Dr.Salvador/Bella Sister for Hillbilly
Deborah/Alexia 1st form for Hag (might be a tad too "revealing" for DBD though)
Rasklapanje/Regenerador for Unknown
Jack Krauser for Legion
Jake Muller for Leon
Sherry Birkin (adult) for Jill
Jack Baker for Trapper
Spectre (ORC) for Deathslinger (it's meh but a high-tech gunner would be cool)
Mr.X for Oni (catches fire when in power)
Yes I know there's a theme here XD
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@Shaddoll_Serpent said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708545#Comment_3708545
You say this almost every discussion regarding slowdown ngl, and no offense, but are you sure you're not exaggerating the effects of that system just a tad? I've played probably hundreds of killer games since they dropped that system, and have never actually lost a game due to it. By the time I actually get a gen blocked off, it doesn't even matter. The game's already over cause I've gotten enough hooks in the match to have won. 8 kicks per gen is more than what any killer would ever need for gen defense, unless your just deliberately playing for a 3 gen stalemate game which is exactly what the system's intended to combat.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708565#Comment_3708565
Disagree. Free regression that requires nothing, but kicking a gen is not good design.
The system won't matter most of the time it's true.
If you're better than the Survivors (or just get someone out asap) then you didn't really need slowdown anyway.
If you steamroll the other side then yeah the system won't matter too much unless you stack slowdown.
The issues start to show when Survivors know what they are doing and you don't have the mobility/lethality to forego slowdown in favor of quick chases. Especially if using weaker regression perks (Surge, Eruption, OC, CoB etc.) and/or non-regression kick perks too liberally (NtH, Surveillance, Trail of Torment, Unforeseen, Dragon's Grip etc.) and getting punished just for getting perk value (or getting punished for trying to get perk value when Survivors manage to evade NTH, cancel ToT, just succeed the OC skillcheck, be smart enough to not touch the Dragon's Grip gen until you left etc.) despite not intending to 3-gen (which is the vast majority of games).
The system on it's own will very rarely cause a loss (unless a SWF can successfully weaponize the system against a Killer on the weaker end of the spectrum, which I admit I did a couple times with my friends by keeping a central/high-traffic gen at high progress and pre-running until it's kicked 5-6 times then keeping it for the end to force the Killer to prioritize a specific gen at the end, it also happened to me a couple times because what is the Killer supposed to do, not kick a gen that's past 40-60% progress when there's no Survivors around? It's unreasonable to force Killers to not do something in this situation on the chance the Survivors are trying this) however it limits Killer options and is for the most part responsible for the current stale meta (Pain Res, Pop, DMS, Grim or something else depending on the Killer) and the tunnelling increase (which was made worse when perks like STBFL and Sloppy were nerfed since it further reduced non-regression options for weaker/M1 Killers while changing almost nothing for the powerhouses.
It's true that, in the average game, we rarely see the system come into effect, but the reason for that is because the system made Killers use less regression perks and kicks outside of Pop and Pain Res (the two perks that give the most regression for a single regression event) and made every other regression perks less seen out of fear of triggering the system, why use Surge or Eruption and get a measly 8%-10% (Eruption alone uses 2 events) when a single use of Pop or Pain Res can net you almost three times that)?
With every other options less viable, some of them not even based on regression, (to prevent blocking gens accidentally despite not 3-genning) then Killers automatically settle for efficiency over variety, especially weaker Killers.
It's not a question of "does the system cause losses", it's more "does the system affect normal gameplay" and it does since it created a new meta and greatly affected (reduced) perk viability/variety and Killer playstyles.
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@HolyDarky said:
I agree. This change just feels terrible and will turn Plague into a more sluggish killer which will not be funny for survivors. I also think less players will give Plague a try because they will get quickly annyoied when they lose the power through DS, Head On, or Blast Mind.
I really hope the developers will remove this from her and if they want to nerf her, nerf her in the right way and if they want to fix her bugs, fix her important bugs that make her unfun to play.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3708543#Comment_3708543
No it is not a bug. The devs confirmed it in their bugreportforum (watch Otz' video he shows it there) that it way always intendet that she loses her power by any stun and not only by pallet - they needed five years to fix a bug nobody asked for…
Huh, unexpected.
It won't really change much though, I think the biggest difference will be if a Plague tunnels while in her power and gets hit with DS. It still won't give free escapes due to deactivating in endgame (which is good) but at least her power won't make DS a mild inconvenience at best, ideally DS should deactivate all Killer powers for like 5-7 seconds to equalize it's effectiveness without making it even worse for weaker/M1 Killers (which is what a lot of changes since 7.5.0 do).
It's a shame though (although one could argue that it adds depth since a team coming together to make a Survivor wiggle out or managing a Head-on/Blind save can actually counter the Killer's power and let's not deny Plague's Corrupt Purge power is among the most powerful, wiggling out didn't mean much) since it makes the power all the more "precious" and heightens the skill floor (respecting pallets/knowing how to avoid saves etc.) without making the skill ceiling also higher.
The only annoying thing about it, just like the unnecessary Sloppy nerf, is that (apart from tunnelling situations) only experienced Survivors will truly be able to take advantage of this "new" weakness on purpose, it will likely change next to nothing against inexperienced Survivors that can't pull off saves consistently.
I wouldn't be too surprised if it might get reverted with enough outcry (then again, the "Anti-3-gen" had entire threads against it with videos included and nothing yet, the current perk meta supporting it) since the game and Plague worked just fine without this added caveat to her power and encouraged mindgames over just camping/baiting pallets.
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Funnily enough, those kinds of buffs (necessary to break the horribly stale meta created by almost every update since 7.5.0) would be unnecesarry if they just adjusted the Anti-3-gen to do what it's supposed to do without making many perks irrelevant after a certain threshold of experience, especially for weaker/M1 Killers.
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I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it's a bug.
With how many things the 7.7.0 update broke, it's not far-fetched to assume Plague's power could have gotten caught in the crossfire.
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Sorry to say that, but what did you think would happen to the perk meta when, in the span of a couple updates;
Slowdown was given a hard-limit that's easy to reach with most regression perks and is affected by non-regression kick perks.
STBFL and Sloppy, two good perks that were commonplace but mostly used on M1/weaker Killers, were gutted which limited options against decent teams.
Of course people were going to gravitate towards the only regression/slowdown perks still worth using against good Survivors. I dislike how stale it has gotten as much as anyone but it's hardly surprising.
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Every cheater epidemic in DBD's history ran it's course similarily.
Cheaters show up, start harrassing content creators/Fog Whisperers to promote the cheats they are selling/try to damage the game.
BHVR makes very little public acknowledgement of the situation (people still get feedback about their reports) while upgrading their anti-cheat behind the scenes.
After weeks (maybe a couple months) of being basically ignored and with the new defenses starting to block the new hacks, the cheaters mostly go away and the status quo returns (cheaters are rare and are either super subtle or just goofing around) until the next wave.
Kinda-like a seasonal flu: it shows up, it's annoying for a while but when it doesn't leave any long-lasting damage it goes away after a bit until a slightly-different strain shows up later.
This one will likely follow the same pattern.
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Honestly, nobody should be surprised that the perk got destroyed, just look at Sloppy and STBFL (the former is unusable against Survivors that can handle being injured for a bit and the latter is unusable on hybrid Killers and much weaker outside of proxy-camping which literally was the only issue with the perk in the first place and the only thing hardly affected).
Lots of people were complaining about Ultimate Weapon (for valid and not-so-valid reasons) almost since release and since it was particularly potent on high-mobility/High-tier Killers then they had to address it somehow to try to help Killer variety (something that's been discouraged more and more almost every update since 7.5.0). Worst thing is that high-mobility Killers will still be able to use this perk much better than others for obvious reasons but now weaker Killers can barely use it outside of a few situations.
It's easier to simply destroy the perk, silencing threads about it and making it almost equally worthless across the board, than trying to adjust it so that it stays good without removing yet another option to weaker/M1 Killers.
Side-note: Due to it being a fixed zone, the perk will now be mainly used for 2 things.
1: Checking to see if any Survivors are near after hooking someone (ideal for campers).
2: A quick insta-chase reset if losing sight of a Survivor in chase and a locker happens to be there.
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Tunnelling had a big rise since 7.5.0 (understandably so for weaker/M1 Killers) and 3 second DS just wasn't good enough to warrant using. The perk already disable in endgame and on a conspicuous actions which means it can't be used for guaranteed escapes.
Even with 5 second stun, high-tier Killers will still be able to tunnel easily since their power will make them able to catch up.
It's another thing to add to the recent "reason why Killer variety is going down" list that's been only growing since 7.5.0.
Don't get me wrong, it'll help a bit, especially for skilled Survivors, but it's far from ideal. At least now there's a risk to tunnelling and Killers might hesitate.
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I genuinely think I had to take a few moments to re-read the post to make sure I got it right.
Not only is endless 3-gen gone, but all forms of gen-regression outside of Pop/Pain Res is considerably weakened. After a certain threshold of experience, most slowdown perks and non-regression kick perks are simply no longer worth it due to too little slowdown for a limited resource. Sure it won't be felt too much if you steamroll the Survivors, but when the playing field starts to equalize then warning spikes tend to show up often, especially if playing weaker/M1 Killers (those that need slowdown way more than the powerhouses).
I've been in games (and did it myself) where Survivors weaponized the regression limit by keeping an important generator (usually a center gen like the ones in the main hall of R.P.D. or main of Lérys and Eyrie or Ormond) at high progress, prompting the Killer to kick it since they don't want the gen to be completed, then simply pre-running but stopping the regression when the Killer goes away. After the gen has been kicked 4-6 times then it can be left alone until endgame to give a free last gen since the Killer will have to prioritize this gen.
This happens easily if perks like Surge/Eruption are brought since they take away regression events but do little damage, meaning it's not rare to end up with one of the last gens at least halfway-regressed (forcing the Killer into a bad situation even if the Survivors 3-genned themselves by not caring about generator order).
High-tier Killers (Nurse, Billy, Wesker, Blight etc.) and Area-Denial Killers (Dull Merchant, Knight, Trapper to some extent, Hag etc.) will always be better than average at defending a tight 3-gen due to how they can control an area (and since gen spawns tend to be pretty bad, especially on smaller maps, then it's not rare to find 3 generators within a stone's throw distance form each other. There's videos and entire threads about it. If a slow Killer can guard a 3-gen effectively for 50 minutes when there's still 4 Survivors alive then it's really on the Survivors at that point, literally just divebombing a gen and pre-running will effectively force the Killer to either stay at one gen eventually (and lose one of the other two) or commit to a chase (and probably lose if the Survivor doesn't go down quickly). A game ending in a 3-gen where both sides are roughly the same skill level will often still put the Killer on the defensive due to how it's very likely at least one of the gens has been regressed a few times.
If anything, the anti-3-gen system does way more than it should since it does affect normal matches if the Survivors don't go down easy (even more so for weaker/M1 Killers that also recently had 2 of their main perks, STBFL and Sloppy, heavily nerfed). If it didn't affect normal matches then Surge wouldn't have dropped in usage and tunnelling wouldn't have risen. The system should only kick-in when there's one gen left (and maybe reduce the regression events to 6-7 to compensate) in order to not kill a bunch of perks and make the game even more stressful for weaker/M1 Killers.
It's worth noting that the devs themselves stated that the mechanic should not affect normal matches. It does, this single change not only made tunnelling more common (which makes sense because Killers have less time to do their objective and a dead Survivor is the best slowdown) but also effectively removed several perks and created an entirely new meta.
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Constantly using Unforeseen (and therefore spending limited and valuable regression events, especially during late game) is just asking to have gens be nearly blocked by the time there is 1-2 gens left if the Survivors are good enough.
If the regression limit only kicked-in when there is 1-2 gens left then I would agree, but all non-regression kick perks are simply too risky to use after a certain threshold of Survivor experience unless paired with Pop to maximize value from the kicks if the non-regression perk unfortunately provides no value outside of the measly 5%.
Honestly if they won't fix the "Anti-3-gen system" then massively reducing the cooldown on Trail of Torment would be enough to make it useable against average Survivors.
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3700263#Comment_3700263
Make barely used perks interesting. It's ridiculous that it takes them six months to change a handful of perks.
Oh I agree, it would be much better to buff old, worthless perks than absolutely gutting strong ones.
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From a purely logical point of view (and with the hindsight of the PTB being a buggy near-unplayable mess with some changes not even properly working) it makes sense to focus on DS and UW since they were by far the most complained about perks (DS too weak for Survivors, UW too strong for Survivors) and putting in changes for those (killing off UW and buffing DS) would silence entire threads categories.
I can barely remember the last time I even saw This Is Not Happening, Genetic Limits and Distressing outside of meme builds/playstyles that were hyper-specialized around their effect (Wesker or Doctor running skillcheck builds, Basement Killers that used GL to always down both the rescuer and the unhooked, injured builds etc.).
I'm not surprised those perks got Shadow-pushed-back for later, especially when the PTB as it is now is already super buggy (it was even delayed because it was worse before BHVR released the PTB somehow) then most people would forget about the barely-used perks.
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Depuis l'update d'Alan Wake (7.5.0) ces situations se sont multipliées et nombres de changements depuis n'ont qu'empirer la chose (nouvelles mécaniques et nerfs qui n'affectent que les tueurs moins rapide/puissant et réduisent les options pour gagner de manière juste).
Des Survivants qui se font tunnel à 5 générateurs arrivait déjà avant, mais c'est bien pire et commun depuis le système "Anti-3-gen" et plusieurs nerfs à certaines compétences depuis 7.5.0.
Le changement à Coup Décisif qui arrive bientôt vas aider un peu mais encore là, les tueurs plus rapide/puisant ne seront pas affecter autant que les autres, ce qui réduira la variété de Tueurs au fil du temps.
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Gen regression is extremely weak right now, every regression perks except for Pop and Pain Res offer too little for a limited ressource (Surge/Eruption just chews through regression events for almost nothing).
Pain Res and Pop, despite their strength (although they were already very popular before, 7.5.0 basically made them the only slowdown worth bringing against decent teams, especially when not playing high-tier Killers) are amongst the healthiest perks since they require a hook to work (and Pain Res only has 4 uses at most).
This list seems more like a list to pinpoint the perks you dislike (although Thrill of the Hunt wth?) or that are too common for your taste since almost every prks in the "balanced" row is either worthless, barely seen or was gutted recently (and so no one uses them in mid/high mmr).
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@09SHARKBOSS said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3693848#Comment_3693848
wait im high to mid mmr? i count my hooks and let them go most times
a way for me to have fun is to bring an aura build with any killer since you always know where they are so finding them is no problem
If you let Survivors escape alive, then 8 hooks or 1 hook doesn't make a difference for the mmr system, you'll lose mmr all the same.
It's a pretty good way to have fun, get bp and emblems without having to go against god teams too often though. I often do that on my main account to still have fun without adding more stress to my life XD
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Assuming you go against decent/good Survivors, a good way to be annoyed is to play one of the weaker Killers (Pig, Trapper etc.) and bring Surge, Eruption, Trail of Torment and Undone (although Surge and Eruption alone can achieve similar results depending on the map and the Survivors).
If the Survivors are half-decent and you try to get perk value, you'll get a gen through 5+ regression events, maybe all 8 If Survivors keep dive-bombing the same gen, before 3 gens are done.
Also trying to get STBFL value as Nemesis, Deathslinger or Trickster, without camping/tunneling, is very frustrating.
Using the "giga-chad" playstyle (no kills until everybody is on 2nd hook) is also great when in mid/high mmr.
As Survivor....well playing SoloQ is a good starting point XD
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It's hilarious that this mode, no matter how ridiculous and absurd it is, is arguably more fun than Lights Out (on the short term at least, that thing doesn't really qualify as a full-fledged game mode that could keep it's fun factor for more than a couple weeks).
I honestly feels like BHVR just handed the reigns to a talented modder and went: "Go crazy it's the 1st of April" XD
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I mean, the "Anti-3-gen" system basically voids any kick perk that doesn't grant some serious regression/slowdown reliably (the reason why Pain Res/Pop are basically the only regression perks left worth using against decent teams, especially on weaker/M1 Killers) so any change that doesn't make the perk powerful enough to warrant being a limited resource just won't change much about it's viability and pickrate past a certain threshold of experience.
Quite frankly, the perk as it is now is useable at a low level but still pretty weak, all it needs to be at least half-decent against the average players is to lower the cooldown and remove the Great skillcheck bar so the Survivors can't use the perk against you, just nullify the loss.
It still wouldn't be viable past the average player but at least it would make it a tad more reliable. If the Anti-3-gen just kicked-in during the last gen then it would be another story.
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@RFSa09 said:
So, for each survivor who DCd in the match, the killer and the rest of the survivor team should be rewarded with more bp
something like:
1 dc = 25% more bp for every single person in the match
2 dc = 50%
3 dc = 75%
4 dc = 100%
look at this match:
you know what i mean?
Leon DCed because you played Skull Merchant and because he got downed in less than 2 minutes yet with only 1 gen done. Ever since 7.5.0 tunnelling went through the roof and Skull Merchant is already a miserable experience so the first down DCing is basically expected.
Sable DCed because there was only a single gen done by the 3rd hook against a Skull Merchant.
Renato likely DCed because he realized there was no fun to be had in a lobby that's 50% bots against a Skull Merchant (less so than a normal Skull Merchant match anyway).
Ace didn't DC because he either figured you weren't sweating or already DCed earlier and didn't want to deal with the penalty even if the match was ruined by the 2 minute mark.
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Welp, another update in which weaker/M1 Killers get no help and the "Anti-3-gen" is still untouched despite entire videos and threads dedicated to it. At that point I'd just take a statement from the devs that the current iteration of the system will never be changed or if it's still under observation and an adjustment in the future is possible.
(Side-note: rip Adrenaline since it's merely SB with a heal that doesn't work if hooked, not worth the hassle of playing with 3 perks especially in this understandable tunnelling rise, I guess the Wake up effect being gone is nice). At least de-pip is gone, it might increase people "going next" on first hook a bit but it'll stabilize.
At least DS might kinda-sorta help against tunnelling, even though it will (yet again, just like the "Anti-3-gen" system and the Mangle/Sloppy nerf) only hurt weaker/M1 Killers while making little to no difference to the powerhouses which will be able to tunnel almost like before. DS should deactivate a Killer's power for a few seconds so it's useful against all Killers.
Here's to keeping hope those threads are being seen!
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While I don't want NOED gone I gotta admit it does a little bit too much for it's "condition".
Whether people want to admit it or not, NOED is the very definition of a crutch: When a Killer fails at their objective they get a massive power-boost (albeit a tad rng-dependant but it can also work in the Killer's favor if the totem is close to a hooked Survivor/easily defendable) at the very end to possibly get easy endgame kills even if there's like 2 Survivors left.
People comparing it to Adrenaline are blind, Adrenaline is a reward for completing your objective and surviving thus far (something that is by no means a guarantee, especially since the massive and understandable tunneling rise ever since 7.5.0) that might not even do that much (if a Survivor is already healthy/not in chase then Adrenaline does very little except reaching a door a tad quicker). Survivors using Adrenaline have no guarantee to get value and are making the game harder on themselves by having a perk that's relevant for 5% of the match and useless otherwise. Sure it can save a Survivor that just went down (although pulling those stunts is near-impossible in SoloQ) but it's most of the time not that much of a game-changer.
I honestly think BHVR should embrace the crutch-like nature of NOED entirely by making a few tweaks to make it a comeback perk instead of a thing to just essentially guarantees a free down/kill at the end no matter what;
-NOED now announces itself (Survivors become exposed) as soon as the last gen is completed (so Survivors won't go for bodyblocks/suicidal chases against a Killer that's suddenly faster that can insta-down and instead will scramble for the exit).
-NOED only activates if all 4 Survivors are still alive after the 5th gen is completed.
If the game turned into a 3v1 before the last gen was done, then the Killer is already at an advantage and will likely get at least one more kill due to how much more difficult the game suddenly became for Survivors (there is no better slowdown than a dead Survivor, there's a reason why tunnelling exists and is most prevalent when there are less alternative ways to get slowdown). A Killer suddenly getting NOED even after getting 1 or 2 kills is just stupidly overkill, endgame saves against NOED Killers are already nigh-impossible and it's downright suicidal to attempt unless the totem can be found quickly (which is harder with less Survivors alive, try finding the thing in the new map or Swamp when there's just two Survivors available, until the aura kicks-in it's basically a coin-toss) and isn't close to the hooked Survivor.
Such a power-boost should only kick-in if the Killer has been demolished thus far and endgame is his last hope to at least mitigate the loss somewhat. A 3v1 is already in favor of the Killer (less Survivors to do gens, less Survivors available to do saves, only one Survivor can do gens while saves are happening, less Survivors available to heal etc.) and a Killer that managed to get at least one kill before endgame (or tunnelled out one person early) really doesn't need the boost on top of it.
I don't mind NOED being a comeback tool, but it should be active when needed and not just be there to cement an already near-guaranteed victory. And endgame boost like that will always be a crutch by it's very definition and will always carry newcomers/inexperienced players to last-second ties or victories (risking eventually raising their MMR to the point where Survivors are so much better that even NOED can't carry the game), but at least make it a crutch that's needed.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3684404#Comment_3684404
Eight attempts at using a perk per generator is more than enough, especially considering all the slowdown ones require a down of some kind. If you need more than eight downs near multiple generators with Surge, for instance, that kinda starts to bleed into the idea of stalling the game out until you can win by attrition rather than winning through actual good play, which is exactly what this system is designed to stop.
For non-regression kick perks (side note, why on earth is Machine Learning in your list there considering it literally requires the generator to be finished before it functions?), the absolute most you can say about them is that now you probably don't want to use them alongside regression perks, but to that there's two things to say: The first is that there are non-regression slowdown perks to pair them with so that's not a huge blow, and the second is that... I'm not really convinced that's true? You can probably run them with a little bit of thought and caution, you just might be more at risk of seeing the warning spikes pop up- but if that happens as you're winning a match, who cares, right?
Eruption, however, just flat gets less than those eight attempts by the nature of its design, and while I don't think that's so damaging the perk can never be used, I do think it's a little more annoying than it really should be. That's why I say it's the only perk unfairly suffering; the TL;DR is that eight uses per generator is fair but Eruption only gets four.
The point isn't reaching the cap before 1 gen is left. Unless you're in a small map (or any map if Survivors keep divebombing the same gen which means they go down near them), using Surge and Survivors keep getting saves/sabos then it's not that easy to reach the cap early.
Like I said in my previous comment, bringing those perks is counter-productive because if the match is tight (at least 3 Survivors still alive or 4 but with some of them on 2nd hook) then 3-gen or not, it's more than likely (especially for weaker/slower/M1 Killers) that at least one of the last gens is around halfway through it's events even if the Killer didn't intend to 3-gen, putting them on the defensive since they need to prioritize a particular gen (which basically means a loss for any of the Killers that can't zoom across the map or end chases in seconds) because they can't afford to kick too much.
It's pretty rare to hit 8 regression events before 4 gens are done (unless using certain perks and/or against certain Survivors) but it's common to end up in a 3-gen that the Survivors created that most Killers can't exactly defend effectively (due to lack of mobility or lethality) despite having no intention to stall.
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Eruption isn't the only perk "suffering unfairly".
Every regression perks except for Pop and Pain Res are simply no longer worth using after a certain threshold of experience (although Eruption and Surge are by far the most affected due to how quickly they chew through regression events for little payoff, especially since a down doesn't necessarily mean a hook) Survivors that don't go down easy (or know how to weaponize the regression limit, it's surprisingly easy, especially for a SWF, if against a Killer on the weaker end of the spectrum/M1 Killers) will minimize the slowdown those perks give while eventually putting the Killer into lose/lose situations at the lategame.
Every non-regression kick perks (Nowhere to Hide, Surveillance, Machine Learning, Dragon's Grip, Trail of Torment, Unforeseen etc.) are also affected since they offer effectively no extra slowdown on their own and aren't meant to regress gens yet take away 1/8 regression events for no guaranteed value and minimal slowdown. If not brought alongside Pop and/or Pain Res they are effectively no longer worth using after a certain experience threshold.
The "Anti-3-gen system" is currently doing way more than it should do. It single-handedly made several perks redundant and effectively made Pop/Pain Res, already popular picks, the only regression perks worth bringing. It also made life more stressful for weaker/M1 Killers due to them needing more slowdown than the powerhouses if they can't steamroll the other side. If the system only kicked-in at 1 gen remaining (even if regression events were reduced to 6-7) then it would make those perks useful again while still removing endless games.
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Ultimate Weapon is getting gutted in a couple months, no need to dwell on it.
While I dislike the new "meta" as much as anyone, it's not hard to understand.
Gen regression/kicks was made a limited ressource, ergo every regression perks (and non-regression kick perks) except for Pop and Pain Res are simply no longer worth the perk slot since they take away a limited ressource for little slowdown compared to the other two.
DMS and new GE synergizes with them because they offer more slowdown without spending precious limited regression that might be vital in lategame if the Survivors put up a fight. If the regression limit was changed to only work during the last gen then other perks could be used without fear of getting gens blocked early without meaning to 3-gen.
Also the nerfs to STBFL and Sloppy Butcher (both of which were primarily used by weaker/M1 Killers) further removed viable perk options when going against decent teams. Both of those perks could easily have been tweaked to adress their issue without killing the perks but alas it didn't work out.
There's a reason why tunnelling has increased significantly since 7.5.0...
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3682082#Comment_3682082
What does it matter that the other Gens are not defended? It does not matter if the other 4 Gens have 0 Progress, 99% Progress or are completed, as long as the Killer is holding the 3-Gen.
If the system would only kick in with 1 Gen remaining, this means that the Survivors would have to cause a 3-Gen. So they have to play badly in order for the system to kick in and most likely it will be easy for the Killer at this point, since they will still have their 3-Gen and most likely no ressources left in it.
Saying that it should only kick in when 1 Gen is remaining just shows that not much thought was put into that idea.
So in your opinion, the Survivors playing badly (not repairing the gens that are undefended/repairing all gens that are near each other instead of spacing them out to avoid a 3-gen, like it was before) should not put them in a bad position?
A Killer that guards and never leaves his 3-gen from the start, if the Survivors do the other gens, will most likely have to face a team in much better shape (less hooks, likely no deaths, more pallets).
With the current iteration of the system, if the Survivors are decent and manage to not lose a member until there's one gen left, even if the Killer did not intend to 3-gen, there's a good chance that they kicked at least one of those gens a couple of times (even more so if regression perk(s) were used) which means that even if the Survivors did the gens without accounting for a possible 3-gen, the Killer suddenly has to deal with the fact that he has at least one gen that can't be regressed for much longer which forces them into prioritizing one gen over the others (which basically means they lost, especially if they aren't among the powerhouses) despite not intending to 3-gen and simply ending up in this situation due to the Survivors not dying before.
If the system only kicked-in during lategame, then Survivors that didn't account for gen order will have to deal with a full difficult 3-gen battle that will likely take a while due to the tiny "playground" they created BUT that can't be infinite due to the limit (I'd honestly take the regression events being reduced to 6-7 if it meant only being during the last gen). It would be fair, other regression perks and non-regression kick perks would be useable again at a higher level and weaker/M1 Killers wouldn't need to count every regression events and sometimes concede gens simply because the Survivors were persistent enough or always pre-ran before they could start a chase.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3681711#Comment_3681711
Killer playing with sloppy is like survivors playing with MFT for few weeks after nerf.
With Sloppy either that killer didn't notice, or has no other options -> generic perk.
Sloppy is just trash now. Not only they reverted Haemorrhage, but also made it with time limit. It's so bad....
I could understand one or the other, but double nerf for sloppy?
I honestly would have perfectly understood if they made Hemorrhage either not work for some time post-unhook (for the sake of some perks) OR if they greatly reduced the healing regression OR if they made certain heal perks (Resurgence, Reactive Healing) give un-removeable heal progress. But the way they nerfed the effects just makes them worthless against half-decent Survivors.
Sure newcomers won't notice much since they will still heal early out of panic, but anybody with a kernel of experience will just wait out the timer, especially against one of the weaker Killers.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3681244#Comment_3681244
This would completely invalidate the system. Because it would then not work anymore against Killers who 3-Gen from the start, who are the reason why it was implemented in the first place. Because it does not matter what happens to the other Gens if a Killer is just guarding 3 Gens from the beginning, so if it would only work with 3 Gens left, it would never kick in. Unless the Survivors bring themselves into a 3-Gen to activate the system, which is really not the purpose of the system.
If a Killer is 3-genning from the start then that means they aren't defending the other gens. It also means they are not putting nearly as much pressure (getting downs/hooks) as a Killer that chases (which is what the aim is).
If the system only kicked-in at 1 gen remaining (or maybe 2 to account for Killers that can defend better than others like Singu and Skully but imo 1 gen would be perfectly fine) then infinite games would go away simply because Survivors could merely ignore the 3-gen in favor of doing the other gens first (like what happened in the cursed Team Eternal match that started this whole debacle).
As it is now, the system simply kills so many perks the moment the Survivors start to get a kernel of game-sense and experience, it's even possible for SWF to use the limit to purposefully give a free endgame.
Surveillance, Nowhere to Hide, Dragon's Grip, Trail of Torment, Unforeseen, every regression perks other than Pop and Pain Res etc. are simply no longer worth the perk slot if playing a Killer on the weaker end of the spectrum and you reached the point where Survivors kinda-know what they are doing. Weaker Killers need slowdown and perks like Surge and Eruption simply don't offer enough regression for being a limited resource. Even with Pop and Pain Res, Survivors can out-repair gens with the right perks/items.
Why bring Nowhere to Hide if Survivors might have Distortion, be in a locker or simply pre-ran? That was 1/8 kicks wasted for 0 perk value and a measly 5% (it's nothing let's not deny it, the Knight's guards did the same before the limit was implemented). The same principle apply to every non-regression kick perks, why bring them for a chance to get some info or temporary stealth if it ends up being a wasted slot? If winning is the goal then simply bringing Pop, Pain Res, Grim Embrace/Deadlock and DMS is the way to go since it offers the most slowdown for the least amount of regression events.
There's a reason why tunnelling went sky-high since that update, weaker Killers have less time and (since STBFL and now Sloppy are now also nerfed in the wrong way) have less options to compensate for their weaker/longer chases. Pop and Pain Res were already among the top picks but this just made it even worse because it's not just a question of them being picked often, it's a matter of so many perks no longer being picked because of it.
The system itself isn't worthless, the idea is sound (especially with Killers like Skull Merchant existing) but having it active the whole trial affects way more than just those endless stalemates (and the devs specifically stated that the mechanic is not there to affect normal gameplay, which is absolutely does right now), it shifts the whole meta and pushes weaker Killers to tunnel more to compensate and lowers perk and Killer viability further at a higher level (which is something that should be avoided since variety is one of the key things making DBD stand out from every other assyms and it's most fun aspect when it actually shows up). The system does prevent Killers from 3-genning from the start, but it also does infinitely more and it shouldn't.
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@Blueberry said:
Yup you nailed it. We want more perk diversity but we’re nerfing SB for some reason. Guess we’re all just stacking PR, Pop, Grim Embrace and DM/Deadlock still.
I just try to mix up my build and then it all gets nerfed into forcing me back into the same handful of meta slow downs. This is the same thing that happened with Thana as well. Now that perks been dead since then.
It's not just Sloppy, since Alan Wake's release, STBFL also took a nonsensical nerf (all it needed was to deactivate near hooked Survivors and not work on basekit BT) and regression was made limited in an ill-thought-out way (all the system needs to be perfect is to only activate when 1 gen is left, it kills so many perks and makes life even more stressful for weaker/M1 Killers when going against decent teams as it is now).
Sloppy is just another layer, all those changes changed basically nothing for the best Killers but kicked weaker/M1 Killers while they were already down.
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@VomitMommy said:
Surprisingly I am not fully against most of it (as for most Skull merchant posts I read), but I don't think Neuroshock idea is way to go. It's definetly not more fun to play against than Hindered. As long survivor has pallet, Hindered is not that good.
I am definetly fine with nerfing drone rotation switching. It should be used only as a tool for drone to adapt for specific loop direction, not spam it so it's impossible to dodge.
Rotation speed and immunity is fine too.
I definetly agree with addon changes, those are just bad... I would change Low-Power Mode so rotational speed is reduced only in scouting mode.
I don't think it is good idea to add more effects to her kit -> Neuroshock. Hindered works and you can play against it. It's not something you get that often anyway. So I wouldn't focus that much on it.
I think there should be changes to make it easier for new players and more interesting for experience survivors and probably rework her haste.
For new players:
- remove broken
- survivors always get in deep wound when claw trap triggers
Let's be honest, it should rarely happen to get claw trap outside of chase, but it happens (mainly to new players). You don't need broken in chase and this would give survivors chance to recover, but they are still visible on radar, so good luck with that.
For veterans:
- Disarmed drone can't be recalled first 15 seconds and aura is displayed red
After it disarmed duration is same, but drone can be recalled and aura changes back.
This will make it kinda trade off drone denial with information as it used to be and funny thing would be disarming drone in chase, so skull merchant is not able to recall and replace it asap. It is possible to do it on safer loops and should be rewarded in my opinion. Helldivers would have fun with this one, when we have so much practice with this right now...
It's just another thing that would become valid as counterplay against her.
Haste
- remove system of stacks
- whenever there is survivor displayed on radar, Skull merchant gets 3% haste
- whenever there is an active claw trap, Skull merchant gets 6% haste (total)
This should make it kinda easier for survivors to know how fast she actually is. Her stack system is kinda relic of her first version and should be changed.
I honestly kinda like the idea of limiting the Haste to two "stages" (3% and 6% max) to reduce confusion and overkill potential against inexperienced Survivors (the majority of the playerbase). Although quite frankly I still believe that Haste can stay if Hindered goes or vice-versa.
Although I'm iffy about the drone broadcasting it's been disarmed through aura change, trading removing info from the Killer for giving info to the Killer is counter-productive, unless the Killer tries to recalI it or sees the drone then a deactivated drone shouldn't show it's been hacked, I hardly ever saw anyone manage a hack mid-chase unless they had a massive headstart.
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@ShanoaLegendaryPlz said:
I find shes strong at the moment as the stealth builds she can pull off are quite deadly. I just hope someday they can rework things on this killer so that people can stop hating the killer more than anything else that exists in the game. When she came out i got all her cosmetics and during the anniversary i got over 250 cakes. Still has 200 because i feel like im not allowed to play her. And the majority that do play her clearly couldnt care less about the survivors opinions and often tunnel n camp without a care either and thats ruining her image even further
If it makes you feel any better, while not exactly liked, many people dislike the Anti-3-gen system (or rather it's nasty side-effects on certain Killers, perks and playstyles. The system would be perfect if it only kicked-in during the last gen) just as much or even more than New Skull Merchant.
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My guess is that somehow it's a possibility that too many bloodpoints could cause issues in the game if people hoarded too much (overlapping in the menus etc.).
It's pretty much the only somewhat logical explanation I've got because it's not even like someone can't hoard beyond the cap before a desired chapter to instantly prestige those characters (get 2 mil normally then never spend BP while going through Rift levels & bp codes) it's just slow.
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To be fair, sure there's a zillion pallets but almost all of them are unsafe. Outside of the "common" tiles and Main, most pallets can be mindgamed with an M1.
It's not like in Gideon where half the pallets are safe and the other half are God pallets XD
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So let's see Killer info perks except Ultimate Weapon on the top of my head...
Nowhere to Hide was indirectly nerfed when the ill-thought-out regression limit was implemented (if you don't get value you've just wasted 1 of 8 regression events for basically no slowdown, those regression events can go by fairly quickly if the Survivors know how to hide and loop, and are vital in lategame). It's not really worth the perk slot when you start to go against good Survivors anymore. If the regression limit only triggered during the last gen then it would be another story.
BBQ is pretty much only useful for Killers that either have high mobility or teleportation, on weaker/M1 Killers it will rarely lead to a chase, especially after the first time BBQ leads to a chase when Survivors wise up to it and go to a locker when they know their teammate is about to be hooked, voiding the perk entirely (not mentioning Distortion/OTR).
Alien Instinct is pretty much only reliably useful to tunnel, there's no going around it, unless you somehow manage to keep everyone injured (I guess Legion and Plague get some use out of it). It's not worth the perk slot outside of meme builds.
Floods of Rage is half-decent I guess, it can even be somewhat useful mid-chase if it triggers at the right time. However being a Scourge Hook perk (and therefore liable to horrible rng with Scourge Hooks spawning all in a cluster or in the corners of the map) it doesn't really offer much to Killers without high mobility most of the time.
Lethal Pursuer, despite it's obvious counter in Distortion, is useful to most Killers for getting an early first chase, however it's a one-use perk if you don't run any other aura perks. It's not rare to see powerful and mobile Killers (Blight, Billy now, Wesker, Nurse etc.) using this for a quick first chase and hopefully down. It's pretty good.
Bitter Murmur...decent on paper but since it requires losing a gen (and is still hard-countered by lockers or Distortion/OTR) then it's not worth the perk slot outside of low MMR, at least not on it's own.
Discordance: Good against SoloQ/inexperienced players, basically worthless against Survivors with a kernel of experience that know that spreading up on gens is the way to go. You'll get value out of it maybe once or twice when against decent Survivors before they catch on that the Killer suddenly shows up mere moments after grouping up on a gen.
Awakened Awareness: It was good since with Lethal Pursuer you could get a few seconds of extra aura-reading, however it got nerfed into a "meh" perk because Nurse exists and used it too well.
Nurse's Calling: Decent I guess, it's dependent on Survivors's actions though and it also, most of the time, requires either dropping a chase or getting within 28 meters of a recently unhooked Survivor.
Darkness Revealed: It's pretty good, although it's map-dependent and a bit Killer-dependent. Dredge, Huntress and high mobility Killers can get some good value but slower/M1 Killers will often see auras that are across the map and they won't be able to capitalize on it.
Hoarder: (Laughs in uselessness)
I'm All Ears: Pretty decent, Nurse will by far get the most value out of it but it can be useful in a pinch and in the right loops.
Spies from the Shadow: Yeah...it's half-decent I guess, it can get annoying to constantly get booms in your ear and it's not exactly accurate but it's something. Ironically with it having a 36m range I heard some people comparing it to a weaker Ultimate Weapon since any triggers are effectively in the average Terror Radius.
Surveillance: See Nowhere to Hide, same issue and it's not worth it anymore due to it not offering enough for a limited ressource.
Tinkerer: High mobility Killers can get some serious value, otherwise you can only hope that the gen is close enough to reach if you don't have the mobility.
Whispers: It's good to find corner rats but otherwise not accurate enough to justify the perk slot.
Yeah, Ultimate Weapon will get nerfed, probably into the Shadow Realm, due to it's great synergy with high-tier Killers and ease of use, however the vast majority of info perks are either worthless or are also much more useful on quick Killers. I honestly don't come across Ultimate Weapon that often (almost every games since 7.5.0 are a mix of Pain Res, Pop, Grim Embrace and DMS, can't really blame them either since regression perks are now counter-productive except for Pop and Pain Res) and it's one of the few info perks that, while most useful on high-tier Killers, is also useful for Killers on the weaker end of the spectrum that can't exactly afford to spend too much time outside of chase (especially nowadays when kicking gens being repaired by unseen Survivors is a limited thing).
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Most of the buffs are fine, although a few are strange and feel either unneeded or implemented without an equalizer.
The Huntresses' buffs are very odd to me, she was already balanced and was amongst the most picked Killers. Sure she had a skill floor a tad higher than basic M1 Killers but she was fine. Experienced Huntress players could down people before they ever heard the lullaby and effectively camp from a distance.
Adding more hatchets and making her faster while holding one feels a bit overtuned. I honestly would have simply increased lockers spawns (only when Huntress/Dredge are the Killer as a QOL change).
The Hag buffs....I honestly wouldn't mind them if nearly every Hags didn't simply create minefields around hooked Survivors. Now with the traps taking longer to remove and the teleport being more generous it just turned most Hag matches into a slog since going for unhooks will almost never succeed without someone getting hit. Basement scenarios are especially egregious as Hags tend to simply make a line of traps along the stairs and hook to make even reaching the hooked Survivor take a ridiculous amount of time. Dredge, Alien, Singularity and (to a lesser extent) Trapper all have anti-camp measures built into their power, Hag should also have one (a zone around a hooked Survivor in which traps can't be placed, traps's auras are visible within a certain radius of a hooked Survivor, something to make this less boring for everyone). The buffs themselves aren't annoying or bad, it's combined with the ability to be one of the best proxy-camper in the game.
Clown's changes are great, the dizzying effect is now manageable even for people dealing with motion-sickness and the Pinky Finger add-on change was needed to account for the more numerous bottles basekit.
Pig's change is nice, finally a buff for our Piggy to make her Ambush better, too bad she finally got a buff after Sloppy and STBFL, both popular and good perks for Pig, got nerfed and then regression also got limited which, as an M1 Killer, affects her more. The loss of box aura is fine, it's to make forcing headpops more difficult and it should be difficult because it's an egregious playstyle.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3675063#Comment_3675063
Initial scream: I'm saying weak Killers (or rather weak Killer players) will lose if they play bad, such as wasting their regression resources. My name is "mizark3" on the forums here, not "NO ONE".
P1: I don't think it kills non-optimal perks as much as it punishes foolish usage of perks. Both sides get punished for making mistakes, and that should never be framed as bad. If someone misplays, they shouldn't be rewarded. As far as tunneling, I already detailed that in the 3rd paragraph of my reply to you above. Short version is they killed anti-tunnel from 6.1, and it has slowly risen over time until they actually put anti-tunnel back in the game.
P2: The limit of gen regression is a tool for skilled Survivors as the limit of pallets is a tool for skilled Killers. I think both sides having access to macro skill expression is good for the game. Just as Survivors can waste their pallets and give the Killer an advantage, if the Killer mindlessly kicks gens at 7% instead of chasing the Survivor on the gen, they should gift the Survivors an advantage. Bad plays should result in bad outcomes.
P3: If the defense of one gen is so vital, the Killer should wisely use their regression on that gen, and more importantly chase the Survivors off of the gen and hook them. Before a Survivor is hooked, there are 3 Survivors on gens, and 1 in chase, or 300% gen efficiency. After a Survivor is hooked, there should be 1 on hook/being healed, 1 rescuing/healing, 1 in chase, and 1 on gens, or 100% gen efficiency. By actually putting pressure on Survivors, the Killer is able to apply 66% slowdown to gens. That is like full Thana+Pentimento+Gift of Pain all put together (if GoP and Thana weren't mutually exclusive). If the Killer decides to chase the person where the previous Survivor went down, then there likely aren't any pallets remaining, and the chase goes that much easier.
P4: The threat of the Killer is reliant on their presence. If the Killer is present and aware, they will chase and down the Survivors going for specific high priority areas. Then when the next Survivor attempts that high value target, the Killer has a deadzone to work with, making it easier on subsequent chases. The Killer doesn't need mobility as much as they need presence of mind to plan their opponents moves and counter them in Macro efforts (consumable resources) as well as Micro efforts (individual chase decisions).
P5: It is important to always work, because a Killer can merely scan the map and plan out their 4/5 gen instead of 3 gen, and play defense instead of offense. H-maps are notorious to have a 5 gen in about half of (my) matches, and a 4 gen in the remaining half of (my) matches. Now you confused me here. You mention Attrition Knight, which the video clearly showed the Killer engaging in that playstyle (only kicking when a Survivor isn't on hook providing pressure), but now you are against it? I'm sorry could you explain how he isn't playing Attrition Knight if he bothered to kick the same gen 4 times in 3 minutes without a single event being while someone was on hook? That looks like Attrition Knight to me.
P6: I think this is a misdiagnosis of the problem as players crutching on tunneling (due to the lack of any counterplay) is the problem here. If someone can't crutch on something, they have to learn to adapt.
P7: Why is PR and Pop being applied together being considered more fair than Surge? It would shift the issue yes, but it would make what I believe to be the fairer usage of perks to be what is impacted. No one enjoys doing a gen 4 times over, and both spam kicks and hard hitting regression both attack that same concept. Plus with the system as is, PR/Pop can be cheesed by repairing 4.75% before letting go to deny the Pop anyway. That I think is a greater issue to fix.
P8: Mobility Killers are too powerful, we already knew this. Bringing all Killers in line to a similar power level would allow for an easier time negotiating these differences. I fully think S and D tier shouldn't exist, and S should be nerfed down to A or lower, and D buffed up to C or higher. Also throw in wildcard changes like the Billy buff to bring weaker Killers up to A tier, and equal type nerfs to bring A tier Killers down to C tier. I think the issue here is people are engaging in 3-gen regression styled strategies, but don't want to admit they are doing it. Surge is an exception to that, as it more accidentally does that than purposefully does.
Conclusion: Going back to the Knight example, they had 0 reason to kick the gen 4 times in 3 minutes (without a Survivor on hook) unless they were engaged in that 3-gen playstyle. Like I detailed in my prior response (but it might have been in the section to the other poster), a gen kick gives the Survivor 12s extra in chase, or if no one is on hook, 36 extra gen seconds (minus 8 for the kick and passive regression) across the map. If those Killers stop kicking and start chasing, they would get much better results. This isn't affecting normal matches, this is affecting some of the lowest skill bracket matches, and people intentionally engaging in 3-gen and 3-gen adjacent actions.
First of all, my bad my "no one" was not designating you sorry about the misunderstanding XD, I was literally saying that us (people that dislike how the current iteration of the Anti-3-gen system affects gameplay) are not having an issue with it purely because of the fact that Killers might lose because of it, we are having an issue with it because it affects normal gameplay for weaker/M1 Killers far more than the powerhouses even without the intent to create an endless stalemate.
Presence and pressure is good and all, and it's true that if a Survivor is constantly on hook then gens slow down (unless the Survivors would rather complete 1-2 gens before going for a save, depending on perks/items it's easily doable depending on how the game is going) but weaker/M1 Killers can't apply that kind of map-wide pressure reliably, especially if the Survivors are good. If they turn the game into a 3v1 early then sure though.
Again, if the regression limit was meant as a tool then the devs would have marketed it as such. However it was specifically said that it was made to stop endless 3-gen stalemates without affecting normal gameplay. The mechanic as it is now shifts the meta, playstyles, and makes certain non-regression perks just as affected by the mechanic as regression perks, so it is doing way more than it should.
In the video, the Knight kicks the gen because it's around 50% and (from his POV) it's somehow getting out-repaired every time he comes back. What Killer in their right mind would go to the other side of the map if there's not only a vital gen at dangerously high progress but they also know there's a Survivor nearby that keeps stopping the gen from regressing & making a bit of progress everytime they turn around and will finish it given the chance? What's supposed to be the play here? The Knight had Nowhere To Hide (which offers no slowdown if a chase can't be started thanks to its effect) but Distortion voided it which meant he was still between a rock and a hard place. He wasn't playing Attrition Knight (somebody was hooked during that whole debacle, also the video was far too short to be able to say that was the situation) he was defending a central gen, arguably the most important gen in R.P.D. which shouldn't be punished further. The Killer's "punishement" is already his lack of map pressure due to being stuck defending the middle gen. Why should Killers be forced to concede a gen if Survivors are persistent and good enough? If it's in endgame then sure (games shouldn't be endless anyway) but it shouldn't be a thing to keep in mind at all times.
How does a kick limit not indirectly nerfs non-regression kick perks greatly? They might give value but offer no extra slowdown on their own, if the effect fails to offer value (NTW doesn't reveal anyone, Trail of Torment gets canceled before a surprise attack can be used, the Killer fails to capitalize on Dragon's Grip effect etc.) then it's a wasted kick out of 8.
I don't care about endless games being gone, it's a good and healthy thing, all we're saying is that it should only be a concern lategame in order to not affect normal gameplay.
Side-note: the exploit that Survivors could use to forever deny kicks was patched a while ago, now the 5% needed to stop regression is a fixed value that doesn't reset if Survivors let go (this was due to people being able to have near-infinite Wiretap and deny Pop, I think Ayrun made a video on it).
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673339#Comment_3673339
I'm sorry but you first asked to not comment on the play/mistakes made, so I held my tongue, but now you specifically said to watch and comment on the videos. You very often dropped chase/pressure opportunities to kick a gen for no reason. That contributed to the gen limit because you were trying to slow down the opponents win condition instead of advancing your own. Not only that, but you nearly never made use of your power to pre-stalk 2-3 players, or even approach from odd angles to get a free down. I can understand if you kicked a gen, stalked the person you pushed off, then they are forced to follow you and reveal, or stop the gen regression, but you would kick and follow instead (most often). The first match showcased multiple bodyblocks, and one of the times you got a free down because there was a pre-stalk, but that was far from as common as it should be happening.
As far as the Knight video, that also showcases attempting to delay the game indefinitely instead of actually progress the win condition. Winning through attrition shouldn't be the primary means of Killer winning, but it most certainly should help (pallet destruction). The Knight needlessly sent a minion to kick the gen (which denied him a Nowhere to Hide usage), when he should have plopped the minion near it to keep people off and chase them (as the minion likely would have seen you through the wall, even if he didn't know you were there specifically). The Knight not running any regression perks shows how much of a foolish mistake it was to kick the gen over and over for no real benefit. Get a down and then use Pop or PR or Eruption proc or whatever, just don't try to stall the game.
Gen regression is now a resource for Killer, just as Pallets are for Survivor. If you recklessly kick/pre-drop all your resources away, you will cause your side to lose. That seems better for the game at large. It isn't affecting normal matches, just the ones where people refuse to chase are being punished. This is an important time to learn the new mechanics and adapt to get away from stalling playstyles. I do think Surge and Eruption need to be adjusted, but I don't know how to fix Surge. For Eruption, I would just make the proc not count as a regression event (as you needed to kick the gen to set it up regardless, so it would still advance the max regression count).
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3673371#Comment_3673371
See final paragraph in the above reply for Eruption/Surge, as well as the Pallet/Gen Regression comparison.
I think the problem is from weaker Killer players getting too used to attrition wins against Survivors by running them out of pallets for free wins. Kicking the gen gives a Survivor 7.2m, or since a Killer moves .6m/s faster than Survivor, 12 free chase seconds at the cost of 5 gen seconds. That is a losing proposition unless they are cornered (and not actually getting that distance), or you are applying a perk to give you 7+ seconds of chase shortening or gen regression (eg. Nurse+Nowhere to Hide, or the gen is PGTW'd at 50%+).
As far as hidden Survivors, Lethal+NTH solves that. Lethal lets Killer know how many people have Distortion, and how to plan their early game (excellent for Ghosty/Myers to plan a multi-stalk route). As far as gen speeds, if a chase takes 60s to down and hook, there were massive mistakes made by the Killer. The Killer with extended chases like that should record their matches, then watch the recording and think about different options they could have made, or if they destroyed a lot of pallets in that area, push future chases back into that deadzone. Kicking a 30% gen down to 25% only to regress to 22% after 12s(when the Killer ran 55m away) and the hidden Survivor gets on the gen is still the wrong move to take without relevant gen perks. Even there wasn't a Survivor, the Killer has to still lose that 12 chase seconds while 2 or 3 other Survivors are repairing gens for 36s of gen time. Getting to chase is more important that random gen delay.
Tunneling has undergone a significant increase ever since they deleted all anti-tunnel perks from the game after patch 6.1. (Yes they didn't 'delete' them, but 3s DS is useless against the majority of Killers, and OTR doesn't work if the Killer tunnels off-hook.) It is an easy free win against soloq, and since 60% of matches include soloq, Killer wins more than loses by doing it. Just like instakicking gens, it is a bad habit formed from previous free wins, causing the Killer to believe that win was 'earned' instead of simply cheesed by abusing soloq bad habits.
Personally, I would prefer instead of the Regression limit as X events(per gen), it was X%(per gen). I would set it at 100%, so you never would have to spend more than 3 minutes to repair a single gen (90s+90s).
IT'S NOT A MATTER OF WINNING! NO ONE IS SAYING THAT THE MECHANIC WILL DOOM WEAK KILLERS TO LOSE.
If regression is a limited resource, it automatically kills any non-optimal perks! Why do you think that except for Pain Res, Pop, Grim Embrace and DMS then slowdown perks have become even more rare than before!? Why do you think tunnelling has risen significantly recently? Weaker Killers, if they want to win against decent Survivors, can't afford to dally in getting one Survivor out and can't waste limited regression events with perks giving a measly 8% or 10% (without perks/items/great skillchecks this takes less than 10 seconds to recover, even less with several Survivors). Why bring Nowhere to Hide if Survivors might be in a locker, have Distortion (like in the video where the Knight kicked the gen himself once and the Survivor lost a Distortion token, effectively wasting the Killer's kick and going back to repair immediately) or simply be far enough away after having pre-ran? This kick is automatically 1/8th of your regression events wasted on that gen, ergo it's not worth the perk slot when starting to go against decent Survivors. Why use Trail of Torment if a hidden Survivor can remove the effect mere seconds after you turn your back, wasting a regression event for no significant value?
And again: The limit is useable by decent Survivors! Vital gens can be purposefully kept on decent progress to force the Killer to kick/regress them. And don't say "then don't regress the gen!" because it's not an option against decent Survivors! Since you have no way to know if they'll be using the limit against you, you have to assume they'll finish the gen given the chance, which can take a pretty short time, a single bad chase against a half-decent Survivor can easily give enough time to complete a gen that's already on the way.
Sometimes losing one vital gen (main lobby in R.P.D., center on Yamakoa, Center on Lérys, 2nd story in Main buildings of Asylum etc.) can guarantee a hard endgame due to gens suddenly being pretty far apart (and those gens being likely to be halfway/low on regression events by the end) and weaker/slow/M1 Killers don't have the mobility to deal with this, they never have and never will.
But Survivors having an easier time if they manage to do those high-traffic gens is a good thing because there should be a way to make the lategame a bit easier and avoid a 3-gen, it was part of Survivor gameplay to choose which gens to do in order to be able to repair gens in relative safety despite the "playground" getting smaller to make sure that they could get the most value out of their teammates' chases. Good Survivors, before this ill-thought-out limit was implemented, would (and still do) divebomb vital and/or high-traffic gens in order to get the hardest gens first and make lategame (if they survived this long) easier on themselves, now they can do the gens in mostly whatever order they want if they are not going against a high-mobility/powerful Killer since there's a likely chance that some gens will have been regressed several times already and the Killer will be forced to prioritize. Tight matches will suddenly turn into stress-inducing losses because the Killer simply couldn't afford to not focus on defending one of the last 3 gens over the others.
If the mechanic only worked during the last gen (some people are apparently saying that due to bad map rng and Skull Merchant existing it maybe should kick in at 2 gens remaining but 4-gen setups are a tad too rare for that in my opinion, it would be better than now I guess) then it would bring back the previous strategy to remove vital gens early BUT would prevent endless games even if the game ended on a 3-gen, the only difference is that a Killer that guarded his 3-gen from the get-go will have to deal with a team in better shape and, due to likely having brought regression perks, will burn through those regression events fast defending a 3-gen against a team in good shape (just like before, but add the good part that Chess Merchant and Attrition Knight can't really exist anymore due to regression limit). I'd honestly take the regression events being reduced to 6-7 if it meant being only active during last gen.
Killers aren't killing less but now they are killing in the same way with the same perks and tunnelling more and weaker Killers are simply more affected by this. The update explicitly stated that the mechanic should not affect normal gameplay, however since it forces non-3-genning people to change their builds and playstyles then it's logical to say it does affect normal gameplay.
Changing the regression limit to be percentage-based but still active the whole trial would just shift the problem instead of fixing it: it would hurt stronger but fairer regression perks (Pain Res and Pop are well-designed because they require a hook but could block a gen in like 4-5 activations if used together and the gen is getting pressured by Survivors) the game would just become gen-blocking and tunnelling simulator. It would be even easier for Survivors to use the regression limit against the Killer.
A and S tier Killers (Nurse, Blight, Wesker etc.) don't care about this mechanic because they never needed regression that much compared to weaker/M1 Killers, their chases tend to be shorter and they can patrol effectively even if they lose a Survivor, leaving a chase that's lasting too long isn't that much of a blow to their game compared to slow Killers and gens will likely have less progress on them when they reach them (which means wasting a kick sometimes isn't even necessary, mitigating the mechanic's effect early on). Nobody is saying that the mechanic is killing all Killers, we're saying it's clearly affecting the gameplay of weaker/M1 Killers more and it shouldn't do so. The 3-gen solution was marketed as something that would stop endless 3-gen stalemates and while it does that, it also shifts the entire gameplay for weaker/M1 Killers and makes many perks redundant, lowering perk and Killer variety which is something that no one wants.