Skillfulstone
Skillfulstone
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@Ohyakno said:
So just free unhook attempts is what I'm getting from this. No thank you.
I wouldn't exactly call them "free" since someone who uses all 3 attempts (but doesn't succeed in unhooking themselves) won't be able to try more AND will die extremely quickly when hooked the 2nd time due to reduced sacrifice timer.
All in all, this suggestion doesn't change much, someone that systematically tries to kobe 3 times will still die much quicker than someone who doesn't since the 2nd hook will kill them super quickly (appeasing their need for not wanting to face a certain Killer in most cases, and going next in case of a bming Killer in some cases) but it prevents people from going next on 1st hook non-stop unless their teammates leave them there.
I honestly think this is a good idea, if BHVR won't remove the DC penalty (and sadly it would create more issues than it solves) then adding an anti-unaliving on 1st hook measure that still punishes overuse would be pretty good.
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Bruh you literally made two threads with exactly the same premise against the same 3 Killers using almost the exact same words XD
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Wesker's power lost 90% of it's passive slowdown (negligible hindered & longer infection post-hook, although the latter wouldn't be a problem if it didn't come with the former, hell just making the infection only start post-hook after conspicuous action or some time would have fixed the problem without crippling him against good Survivors that aren't spraying asap) and while his power is a good counter to holding W, it's not comparable to Billy or Blight's traversal.
Blight already has a decent cooldown and he recently got his skill floor made much higher by (mostly) removing sliding which makes obstacles (in and out of chases) more annoying. He's still very powerful, one of the top-tiers in fact, but nowhere near as powerful as he was.
Billy...I can't say that the punishement for missing is a big deal, especially with certain add-ons, and his new curve window greatly lowered his skill floor, but he's a pain to play in indoor maps and tight tiles without pallets. He's not without weaknesses and doesn't justify a reload mechanic.
Let's also think about the fact that all those new animations & mechanics would likely break things utterly unrelated.
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It's really sad that we reached the point where, in the suggestions & feedback thread, there are suggestions made purely to spite the "other side" despite knowing it'd be unhealthy.
These kinds of "ideas" would literally just annoy the vast majority of Killers that don't use Franklin's for the sake of getting petty revenge.
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@bjorksnas said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3754801#Comment_3754801
Some of these are right but its 2nd year not 3rd year
Only bubba and billy but imagine trying to saw anyone with vacuum pallets and 2x the windows on op structures
2.0.0 would be just shy of op beamers
Don't forget you could also use it on yourself while going down to tank a hit and be healthy
35% wiggle ds if not obsession but yes very strong free escapes
It would just be thanataphobia (slightly stronger than it is now for the first survivor being injured and affected healing), dying light (25% action speed after obsession is dead), and ruin (which can be broken right at the start with the easy totem spawns and no undying) not quire critical mass yet and basically nothing nowadays that tunneling wouldn't give you in equal pressure (which you would have to do anyway to get dying light value)
True but its ~20s gen bnp not instant bnp
True
Noed was a hex at that time
True but she only had devour and noed
True
True
Removed in 1.0.2 self care was at 50% at that time but heal time might have still been 12s
Thankfully True
Pig didn't exist
Didn't exist yet
Early dbd was, maybe ok, but 1.0.0 to 2.0.0 was a nightmare, then it had a bit of a break then became a nightmare again till around 4.6.0
I know that all of those were fixed fairly quickly, but the op clearly included the earliest versions (including the tail-end of year 1) in the (theoretical) modifier which was horrendous.
(I was including all time periods for those and the op included up to year 4-5 so Pig did exist at some point).
It was mostly a "why going back isn't a good idea" XD
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Ah yes, the times when insta-down Killers would facecamp half the time with no way around it if not in a SWF.
The time when beamers could blind Killers near-instantly with the right add-ons.
The time when syringes could instantly heal someone from downed to healthy.
The time when DS meant a guaranteed escape if not used before endgame.
The times when all gen-slowdown perks were still viable against decent Survivors since most of them weren't limited despite offering mediocre value.
The time when 4 BNPs meant the game's length was effectively decided by the Survivors as soon as one gen was done.
The times when Survivors could dip using the Hatch without needing to do all gens.
The time when NOED wasn't a Hex and had no timer.
The time when Nurse could use expose effects.
The time when the hole in the main building of the asylum could be used to softlock the Killer forever.
The time when Self-Care could be so fast with the right build that Survivors could heal faster than the Killer could hit them if carrying a Survivor, enabling infinite bodyblock.
ThetimewhenSkullMerchantdidn'texist.The time before "nerf Pig" was a thing.
The time when Eruption caused incap for over 20 seconds. And while SWF could deal with it, SoloQ could not.
Yeah, I went through those periods and I honestly don't miss early-DBD. Imo the game was at it's most stable from 6.1.0 to 7.5.0 (when it started to just go downhill or stagnate every updates with only minor upgrades).
If it did happen, then there shouldn't be rewards/challenges tied to it and it should solely be a nostalgia thing, especially the first 2 years were painful at times.
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1: Sloppy/Hemorrhage should never have been nerfed to having a duration, this makes those effects much weaker on more experienced Survivors that will simply slam gens (if possible) until the timer runs out instead of healing through the increased timer out of panic. This change basically changed nothing for inexperienced/casual Survivors but made life much easier for more experienced ones, not to mention indirectly make certain perk builds no longer viable which reduced perk variety.
2: Resurgence should have had one simple buff, after being unhooked, the next heal requires 50% less charges (a BNP-like effect so that a niche perk can't be made redundant with a common effect).
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@Frogsplosion said:
Both killer and survivor should be privy to whatever info they need to do their role, hell give solo queue proximity chat and let the killer hear it too
The DBD community can be extremely toxic. People used (former) cosmetics to target black people for Pete's sake.
Proximity chat can never happen, the most common use of it would be to throw slurs and insults at each other so no one that wants to play the game in SoloQ would use it anyway.
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@Emeal said:
the only way to beat it is to NOT go for an unhook when hes proxy, you cant get away with the usual stuff when you got vs a bubba.
Saying "the way to beat his proxy-camping is hoping that he won't proxy-camp" isn't exactly a valid strategy. "Just genrush" isn't viable in SoloQ. Bubba was always the King of camping, it's just slightly less common now because smelling the Survivor's belly isn't possible anymore so the meme value has gone down.
Especially since 7.5.0, at least one Survivor getting proxy-camped & tunnelled (if they don't go next on 1st hook) is more common than not.
And anyway, it's apparently not in BHVR's plan to make camping (in general) harder, the (planned) Singularity update will lessen his anti-camp mechanic.
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Things that should show up for SoloQ's sake.
AFC bar progress on HUD.
Locker glowing yellow if a Survivor with Head On ready is currently inside.
Deliverance & Wicked icons when hooked.
Empty items carried by Survivors have a faint red glow from other Survivors's POV to prevent misunderstanding (no, I cannot heal quicker nor can I repair faster, no need to threaten to report me for griefing/throwing).
Plot Twist icon when used.
I honestly believe that Survivors shouldn't see each other's perks without comms/SWF, but not because of purely gameplay reasons, it's more because of how the community already is.
Even now, Survivors give up/go next on 1st hook extremely commonly (partly due to the tunnelling increase which is partly due to every other methods of slowdown being limited and/or weakened, 7.5.0 started it all, getting found first/too early often means getting proxy-camped and tunnelled) so just imagine what would happen if Survivors knew that teammates didn't bring optimal perks/brought meme perks, the game would become unplayable as soon as someone didn't bring the meta.
People would give up or, if god forbid perks could be seen in lobby, lobby-shop until they find a meta lobby and many achievements/challenges would become downright impossible (perkless/adept/general/specific perk challenges and achievements).
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While going to such complex changes wouldn't be necessary, the perk could use a decent range buff as well as the ability to use it through floors/ceilings.
While perks giving "get out of jail free" cards should be handled with care (old DH, old FTP+BU, original Sprint Burst w/old exhaustion etc.) Anti-tunnel and Anti-camp perks should be given more "oomph" to compensate for the fact that they are effectively useless if the Killer doesn't tunnel/camp.
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People constantly say stuff along the lines of "Distortion has almost no counter" or "You need a full aura build to counter Distortion!" (which is nonsense, Gearhead alone absolutely vaporizes Distortion and any single aura perk is enough if used by a stealth Killer) but the moment a perk shows up that isn't overpowered yet is a hard-counter to Distortion then people lose their mind and call for nerfs even though several meta perks were just severely nerfed, some of them into uselessness, even though gen slowdown was recently given a hard-limit which is easily reachable if using certain perks or facing good enough Survivors (or smart Survivors that harass a specific gen and pre-run to prompt the Killer to waste their regression events).
Like, I get the hate Franklin's get, it's obnoxious even though it's not exactly meta. What Weave Attunement did was make it more than a one-time use perk since dropped items continue to give value after the initial M1, which makes an incredibly obnoxious but fairly weak perk actually viable.
Quite frankly it's pretty obvious Weave Attunement is getting gutted at some point, too many people are calling for it's nerf/removal, my guess is that only empty items will give aura which will shatter the synergy between the perk and all add-ons (and other perks) that can force Survivors to drop items.
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It's not the first time a community challenge was deemed downright impossible, the requirements will likely be lowered. This anniversary event is, due to being a separate queue, less played than previous ones due to some people disliking some aspects of it and playing normal queue instead. The very first day when I saw how much invitations were required I knew that it would be nigh-impossible to reach, especially since the entire Xbox part of the playerbase couldn't get invitations for a while.
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Well….From this post-game screen, many things might be increasing the chances of DC/going next on 1st hook.
1: Playing Skull Merchant. This is not event-related, Skull Merchant will be "dodged" more often than any other Killer even in normal queue, it is (in small part) the reason why she has such a high killrate.
2: Judging by the offerings brought, the Survivors (and most players during those kinds of BP-intense event) were rather expecting a lobby-full BP bonus. Not only was the Killer the most hated, but they are also the only one that brought a solo offering.
3: Judging by the BP gained, Survivors didn't have the time to do much before getting killed, I wouldn't be surprised if Renato & Dwight got found within the first few seconds. Even in normal queue, a Survivor getting hooked too quickly massively increases the chance of DC/going next on 1st hook in order to avoid a very-likely tunnel (as getting tunneled at 5-4 gens is more expected than feared at that point) and get to play the game again faster.
4: Except for Nick who brought a gen-speed build, the others brought builds that were mostly centered around survival (anti-slug, a bit of anti-camp, anti-tunnel, stealth, minor chase, half of Ash's build is worthless if he doesn't get slugged) and likely saw that they were going against one of the (since Pop got neutered) strongest slowdown build (which usually says that the Killer is there to win rather than play). In fact I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were in a team.
5: When the first guy gave up, it likely utterly demoralized the others and they followed suit. Quite frankly, losing a teammate at 4-5 gens is basically ending the game since too much gen-pressure is lost and, especially against a Killer which is basically guaranteed to eventually win the chase unless it's a day 1 player with a malfunctioning M2 button going against a comp Survivor, no amount of chase will give enough time to come back. The only "hope" is hoping the Killer kills the other 3 and doesn't slug for the 4k (which is basically a pipe dream) in order to have a chance at Hatch. When one guy gives up early, the others are almost bound to follow since they don't see the point in playing out a (likely drawn-out) game that is already lost and won't even yield much BP.
6: While that's not event-exclusive, the rate of giving up on 1st hook if found/hooked too early is at an all-time high (partly due to the great rise in tunnelling, which is partly due to every other sources of slowdown being slowly withered away) and honestly shouldn't be surprising anyone on either side. There is not enough incentive to not tunnel (in fact weakening every other sources of slowdown indirectly encourages tunneling to compensate) and not enough incentive to see a doomed/thrown game to the end.
It's really a shame that it's a rather common situation, even outside of the event, and that certain Killers are tough to get a full game with (although this proves that the option to avoid certain Killers should never be added and that there should be incentives, probably through additional BP, to not tunnel and to play a full game). It's not a good state for the game to be in and, while understandable to some extent, it's something to look at.
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Mostly depends on the Killer honestly.
Nurse, Skully, Vecna (kinda) and Knight have a much higher rate of giving up/going next early than others.
A lot less people are giving up against Wesker or Blight, despite their strength, than before due to how much easier it is to deal with them now (safer loops against Blight, basically no more slowdown and optional cleansing for Wesker).
However a great early-game (1/2 hooks before 1 gen pops) with any Killer will almost guarantee at least one Survivor going next/going AFK.
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@Rulebreaker said:
Would someone be kind enough to tell us why info perks are being so hated lately?
Because since 7.5.0;
Gen slowdown/regression has been gutted. The last few good ones having been harshly nerfed this update.
Most (good) chase perks have been nerfed (STBFL, Sloppy etc.).
All sources of anti-heal were made obsolete against good Survivors (all Mangled and Hemorrhage sources on a timer, decent Survivors will slam gens until the timer runs out instead of healing quickly out of panic).
Gen kicking (and slowdown in general, including non-regression kick perks) was given a hard-limit which can be weaponized by a decent team (there's whole threads and videos about it).
Survivors are running out of things to complain about (although increased tunnelling & camping, Survivors giving up often and horrible map generation should be given more attention imo) so things that become more common are complained about. The current situation (low perk variety, increased tunnelling and camping) is a direct result of the last few month systematically weakening every other viable options without offering alternatives or incentives to not tunnel (in fact, nerfing Pain Res and Grim Embrace arguably encouraged tunnelling since less slowdown is gained) to compensate, especially for Killers on the weaker end of the spectrum.
Out of everything that's currently happening though, complaining about Lethal Pursuer and aura-reading of all things is surprising.
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3733852#Comment_3733852
Not really. The usages I listed pretty much describe what Vecna's toolset is.
Again: In chase.
Chasing is not the only thing you do as killer. If every single one of his spells was able to secure hits, you'd have an S+++ killer on your hands.
You may want that, but no one else does.
While true that Vecna isn't quite as weak as many people make him out to be (although his upcoming nerf/fix will hurt him) he is indeed pretty complex to play for casual/inexperienced players and is among the Killers that get the harshest punishement for whiffing (if I recall correctly, only Static Blast has a higher cooldown). He's not a Killer you can pick up and get results with against decent Survivors without some practice.
Side-note: with every gen-slowdown perks (and popular non-regression perks) getting gutted one after the other, tunnelling and camping becoming more prevalent as a result, we kinda need Killers that don't rely on perks as much in order to compete without using... unsavory strategies that sour the game for everybody. Of course we don't need another Nurse, but Wesker was arguably the perfect Killer before they neutered his infection this update (experienced Survivors don't really care about curing his infection asap anymore so he lost a lot of passive slowdown which is important at a higher level).
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3732576#Comment_3732576
All achievements are based on luck to some degree.
All achievements can be grinded out eventually too.Luck-based achievement usually have the player able to at least get themselves in a position to try their luck again on purpose;
All the DBD achievement where you have to do a certain generator and escaping, just bring the right map offering and you can guarantee an attempt even if not victory.
Horrible opening Hatch challenge in modern DBD, If you play like a total rat and throw the game for your teammates this can possibly be attempted every games if the Killer doesn't find you.
The Adept achievements only have as requirement to own the perks (being in a SWF greatly enhances the chances of success).
You can't tell me with good faith that an achievement depending on facing a certain Killer AND getting lucky searching a chest AND escaping alive isn't a pretty bad achievement design, there's hardly any skill involved until you both face the right Killer and roll a 20.
If there was a way to purposefully face a certain Killer (outside of arranging to queue up at the same time as a friend and likely having to back out dozens of time) it would be different (it would still be meh due to the luck-based element of the chests) as the luck element wouldn't be dependent on other people. In a matter of weeks (maybe months but probably not, Vecna is nowhere near Wesker's league) this achievement will be insanely hard to get since Vecna pickrate will have drastically dropped and the hype will be gone (side-note: with people having more experience with the Killer, even after getting lucky it will be harder to escape).
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Can confirm had a game against Vecna and it froze when trying to leave the result screen.
Edit: it was on Hawkins.
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While 4 may be a bit much, especially for smaller/indoor maps, 3 zombies would be fine and honestly they could use an AI upgrade so they aren't allergic to hills.
Ever since the "Anti-3-gen" and subsequent multiple gen slowdown perks nerfs (including the upcoming nerfs to the last few slowdown perks in the next update) Nemesis has been a chore to play at a higher level without relying on.. less savory methods of playing. And a small buff to his passive, unreliable, rng slowdown would be a welcome addition.
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@Ohyakno said:
If you have to add a content warning for spiders, why would they add one to the game?
Coulrophobia exists, and Clown exists in DBD, there even a perk with that exact name.
Emetophobia exists and Plague exists, her Mori is the nightmare of anyone having emetophobia.
So why not a Spider killer?
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As hilarious as that sound, the game can barely handle 5 players at once and can't deal with more than 2 AI zombies. Adding so many players, likely including people with vastly different ping, would make computer players crash to desktop and send console players back to the previous console gen XD
If BHVR's 2v8 mode works for all platforms at release on live servers then making it even more chaotic would be amusing.
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@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3730266#Comment_3730266
The relevant zombie addons - speed, detection range, and arguably the Mutation increase for killing them - are either unchanged or improved by this idea.
They'd still be info, because you'd still see them start to chase survivors and see them get knocked down if survivors try to kill them. They'd also still be some minimal slowdown, since survivors would have to go out of their way to dance around the zombie to make it whiff and then go through the animation.
Some zombie addons would also get a little better- the ones for respawn speed would be more relevant if they're actually being used consistently. Not to mention hypothetical new addons that buff you when a zombie's killed.
Frankly, I would be happy to trade the slowdown you get from zombies away entirely to stop them being so useless even in their best scenarios in chase. I still think you'd get comparable slowdown out of zombies overall, since survivors would have some incentive to go out of their way to kill zombies even outside of being harassed away from gens, but if I'm wrong about that - fine by me. I'd rather see them do something much more impactful.
Nemesis isn't that bad, also. He's like. Fine. Tentacle Strike is strong but fair, and the zombies are a little lacklustre, hence the buff idea here.
Making them killable without prerequisite would only be a viable idea if the zombies were much better and more importantly reliable.
Maybe also making their base respawn time shorter and triggering Killer instinct when a zombie dies would kinda compensate for the loss of built-in slowdown by enhancing the info and presence.
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If zombies could be easily killed without requirement outside of chase, then zombie add-ons would be even less relevant since zombies aren't really meant to even get hits outside of careless/inexperienced Survivors unless the Survivor gets sandwiched between Nemesis and the zombie mid-chase (or the Survivor uses the zombie for a free speed boost if not infected).
The zombies are mostly there for (unreliable) info and (unreliable) minor slowdown since they can harass Survivors off of gens and point out nearby Survivors. The info and minor slowdown they provide is arguably one of the only reasons why he's not one of the worst Killers in the game (although he has miserable killrate), being easily taken out would essentially take away his already rng-reliant info and minor slowdown.
If anything, the zombies could use a tad more speed basekit (alongside a needed AI upgrade so they aren't allergic to hills).
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@Emeal said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3728987#Comment_3728987
Im not iffy about that at all.
I would be way more concerned about challenges that are badly functioning.
I mean, bugged challenges aren't exactly new.
I can't recall the name (maybe something like "that's rude"?) but there was this challenge where you have to point towards the Killer and dozens of people just couldn't get it to trigger.
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@Emeal said:
I am perfectly fine with challenges that require knowledge of the Killer to complete.
its a chance to deepen yourself with Doctor and understand more.There's a difference between knowledge of a Killer's kit (although add-on-less Doc isn't exactly rocket science) and being essentially forced to run an iri add-on to do a challenge. This single challenge can potentially cost quite a few BP depending on a player's interest in Doc.
I'm all for challenges requiring game knowledge (for example a challenge that would require Artist to get a down/injury through a wall) but I'm a bit iffy about challenges requiring an add-on.
Funny side-note: I don't think I've ever seen you agree with someone's complaint despite seeing you everywhere XD
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Killers get less points (and potentially lose challenges) if Survivors bleedout as opposed to being sacrificed.
Many Survivors will attempt this out of spite. I've seen people purposefully use Plot-Twist to bleedout stealthily just to deny hook stages.
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@Xernoton said:
You might want to give us a bit more here. Are you talking about the upcoming nerf to slowdown perks or is it about the recent Adrenaline nerf? Or is it about STBFL? There have been many meta perks that were nerfed over the last year.
I assume he means all of those since many past nerfs/changes are directly responsible for the current meta.
Ever since 7.5.0, the "meta" (popular, not even necessarily overpowered) perks for Killers and a few for Survivors (Adrenaline, the upcoming Buckle Up destruction) has been almost systematically targeted every updates, with average results outside of greatly lowered perk variety and increased tunnelling.
The current meta is the result of every other good perks being nerfed to the point where they are either too weak or too niche to be useable against decent opponents (Sloppy is now almost useless against skilled Survivors as they will simply slam gens until the timer runs out due to being confident enough to not heal early out of panic, STBFL is now downright unuseable on certain Killers even though it was a perk that mostly weaker/M1 Killers used since the top-tiers almost exclusively use M2 attacks, Adrenaline is now a glorified Sprint Burst that is simply not worth using outside of a competent SWF in order to get value consistently if you even survive to endgame) and sadly enough, basically all of those nerfs changed next to nothing for the powerhouses while making low-tier Killers harder to play.
The upcoming nerfs to Pop, Pain Res, Grim Embrace and Deadlock won't change the meta much since every other slowdown perks are still a risk to use because of the regression limit (would be perfect if it only kicked-in at 2 gens remaining). It'll just make those perks weaker and make Killers tunnel more to compensate for having less time. Buckle Up will fade into the Shadow Realm outside of meme builds (although the synergy with FTP was indeed too much, all that was necessary was to remove FTP activating healing-based buffs) just like Ultimate Weapon did (I honestly don't think I've seen UW since the nerf).
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Petrified Oak offering removes one random hook (barring a few guaranteed and fixed hook spawns like Ormond's balcony), despite what the description says it doesn't really move hooks around and is mostly rng.
To get any sort of reliability you need all 4 Survivors to bring one, otherwise rng might just remove a couple hooks without creating hook deadzones.
It's also pretty map-dependant, some maps (Midwich being the worst) can be turned into slogs because even normally it's easy to create hook deadzones.
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Jeezums how many times do you have to DC to rack up a 13 hour ban!?
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It's normal that Chaos Shuffle is full of people try-harding: neither side have access to perks which makes them able to not try-hard and get results.
Killers seldom have Pain Res/Pop (getting Surge/Eruption is more of a handicap than anything if the Survivors are decent) to get more time, weaker Killers are especially hurt by this. So tunnelling and proxy-camping are even more commonplace.
Survivors seldom have access to gen/reliable/anti-tunnel perks like Déjà Vu or DS. Killers have basically no fear of getting punished for tunnelling (DS, OTR etc.)
I honestly find Survivor games to be much easier than in normal mode, especially in a 2-man or more, due to how the Killer really has no way to stop us unless all chases are very short, especially if they don't tunnel out someone early, not to mention there's basically no fear of the Killer finding someone in the first 10 seconds because of Lethal Pursuer so jumping on the nearest gen asap is much safer. This is mostly only true for weaker/M1 Killer though since the top-tiers don't really worry about slowdown as much.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725754#Comment_3725754
Huntress has no map presence. While a high skilled huntress is deadly in the chase. Her ability to apply spread pressure on the map is very limited in isolation. So of course, I disagree that huntress can win with no slowdown or information perks off pure skill alone.
Spread out to do gens and pre-running can beat a chasing huntress(She is very slow 4.4 m/s killer with a 40 meter lullaby).
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725767#Comment_3725767
it is kinda long explanation.
The way huntress build map presence on the map is by hook camping and in particular, slug camping. The objective of huntress is to down two survivors, hook 1 survivor than pick up survivor 2 and then drop survivor 2 near hook. Some huntress even use Agitation as @edgarpoop would explain in comp.
When two survivor on the floor, you can't pick up slugged survivor because huntress holding hatchet can just knock slugged survivor immediately back on the floor and saving a hooked survivor at best case scenario results in a trade. When huntress successful does this correctly, you are in spiral of unable to recover.
If this happens at early stages of the game like 5 gen, 4 gen or 3 gen, the 2 survivors are unable to finish generators before survivor dies on hook so they're forced to help the teammate on the floor and hooked survivor but it will often result in 3k/4k for huntress even against best teams.
Luckily, survivor do have perks to counter this nasty strategy. There is 3 perks in particular that counter this strategy. I'll go from least effective to most effective. The first perk is Tenacity. This perk is good because when a survivor is dropped, you can recover and crawl very quickly away from the hook. This allows teammates to safely pick up the 3rd survivor, heal up and potencial body block rescue a teammate that will likely be on death hook. The second is set of perks is called Soulguard and Unbreakable. Soulguard is a perk that any time you are picked up from the dying state, you gain endurance and unbreakable is a perk that allows you to recover a single time from dying state on your own. When you pick yourself up, a huntress holding hatchet will attempt to knock you down however Soulguard will save you and tank the hit. This can allow you escape from hook or even rescue your teammate that is dying on the hook. The 3rd final perk is Buckle up. This perk allows you to gain endurance effect any time you heal a survivor from dying state. When the huntress shoots a hatchet to knock you down from your recovery, you can tank a hit and hopefully escape. Buckle up will be changing next patch to not be able to tank a hit, so it will diminish in effectiveness at saving the survivor in certain situations if huntress shoots the hatchet before your sprint burst takes off.
Nerfing huntress camping would be highly detrimental for huntress. It is like nerfing leatherfaces ability to hit endurance and instant down or making trickster unable to use main event near the hook. It is part of their identity and it is important for their viability vs extreme gen-rush/second chance teams.
By the very first paragraph I was beyond confused, like, just go watch CoconutRTS or Hens, those guys lands insane shots on the regular and have no need to build an elaborate camping trap to dominate. Hens even made a video where people called him a cheater despite being perkless.
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@tony42545 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3725137#Comment_3725137
So if survivors have a small hitbox that give them the ability to run around objects quicker it's not an issue?
But if Chucky moves just as quick that is an issue?
How come when killers and survivors have a common playing field we automatically give survivors the advantage? This is a going trend that continues to plague the game and for me to see that other people are repeating this I feel is trouble some.
Things like the gen regression prevention, hook grabs denials, and body blocking nerf. The longer this game goes on the harder it is to maintain a fun game for the killers.
These are the reasons I had stopped playing but I heard that they are going to release a 2v8 "mode" which is something I've been looking forward to. But then I learned more about it.
Ok I'm gonna stop that misconception and assumptions right there, I'm not on the Killer's nor the Survivors's "side" (and the us vs them mindset is partly responsible for many of the game's problems), I'm on the "side" of the game's health. Both "sides" need to be enjoyable to play and, even if it's assymetrical nature prevents it from ever being truly balanced, the game needs to be somewhat fair.
I despise nearly every changes that happened since 7.5.0. The "Anti-3-gen" killed perk variety and made weaker/M1 Killers stressful to play and increased tunnelling, then Sloppy/STBFL were nerfed the wrong way and further reduced perk variety while making weaker/M1 Killers even more stressful to play, then Ultimate Weapon was nuked into uselessness which further reduced perk variety.
The upcoming updates (which kills off the last few good slowdown perks, buffs Sabo and makes Wesker's infection a non-factor against decent Survivors because people complained enough) is continuing in the same trend (it's obvious Vecna is going to be seriously buffed at release and his perks will likely receive a makeover) with how much tunnelling has increased (and I understand even if I hate it) the game is in a pretty bad state currently.
The Chaos Shuffle, as refreshing as it was, highlighted how horrible playing M1 Killers without decent slowdown is (and why tunnelling is one of the few ways to compensate).
I was literally just answering him on why Chucky is 4.4 and think about it, if all Killers had as much freedom of movement as Survivors then dodging or looping would be nigh-impossible and nobody would play Survivor outside of SWF teams. And unfortunately for both "sides", they need people to play the other "side" in order to play the game.
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@UndeddJester said:
This would make No Way Out and Remember Me absolutely busted.
Hell, if Remember Me and No Way Out have full stacks, I'm not even sure it would be possible to escape in time if no one is downed/hooked.
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I honestly would love a Killer that would spawn water on maps (like how every hooks change with Xeno and the Dream World) and be a core mechanic.
For example the water monster from Amnesia, he would be "invisible" and have a minuscule Terror Radius (like tier 2 Myers with Dead Rabbit + Monitor & Abuse) and a faint Red Stain but a directional noise and visible footsteps whenever it moves.
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I'd rather not make queue times longer by creating a second queue forever, however if random perks became a setting you can toggle then I'd be all for it.
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With gen slowdown taking a hit nearly every updates since 7.5.0 (alongside good perks that the top-tiers didn't use as much as the weaker Killers), Killers without mobility (or enough lethality to compensate) simply can't keep up against decent teams without resorting to more...unsavory tactics.
Every 110% (or slower) Killers have something to compensate, whether it be range, insane camping ability/area-denial (Hag) or exceptional lethality.
A Killer like Huntress, which is already able to get hits and downs seconds into a match or from any range in the right hands, would be insane if she was 115%.
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@Inosennatoki said:
Chucky should be 4.6 m/s, after devs removed his anti-loop.
Reducing the cooldown to 12 seconds wasn't enough to compensate for the huge nerf he received.
Chucky isn't 4.4 m/s because of scamper, he's slower because his small size/hitbox makes him able to hug corners better than most Killers.
Making him 4.6 would make him feel like he had a permanent Haste in loops since he already loses slightly less distance than other Killers on corners.
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@FapilyEverAfter said:
I'll openly admit, I die on hook often if I feel it's a toxic match, especially lately as soloQ with chaos shuffle which has made these issues much worse. If it's straight to hard tunnels, proxy camps, hook hits and slugging at 4-5 gens I peace out gracefully. I'm here to enjoy the game and chill, you wanna sweat, sweat with the bot.
But that's the whole problem: when Survivors "go next" on 1st hook they DON'T leave a bot behind. It's just the same as before bots existed and the game is basically automatically lost for the other Survivors since a 3v1 early (4-5 gens) is basically guaranteed 4k.
Tunneling and sweaty playstyles (partly caused by every other options being either weakened or removed over time, which narrows Killer, perk and playstyle variety especially for weaker Killers) make Survivors go next to avoid the DC penalty very often which ruins the game for everyone.
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@pseudechis said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3723334#Comment_3723334
actually it minimises content. Takes a gameplay element and just makes it an endgame novelty rather than a playable aspect. It changes things a bit more than you think.
Far more than that.
Turning Mori animations into an endgame/4k thing changes many things, including playstyle and general mindset (not to mention effectively removing Devour Hope and Rancor, two already rare perks, due to their unique functionality being gone, further reducing Killer perk variety in an already declining state every update ever since 7.5.0).
More importantly, if the only way to see a mori is to 4k, it will basically guarantee that nearly every game, the Killer will slug for the 4k.
It would also makes it even worse since instead of hooking one and then killing the last, the Killer (in order to prevent a possible Hatch/Unbreakable play by the last Survivor) would down the last Survivor and then wait over the Survivor with the highest remaining bleedout timer in order to guarantee the mori the instant the other one dies (after doing nothing for 4 minutes and wasting the maximum amount of time possible).
This would eventually turn the mori animations into a chore, especially in low mmr where 4ks are common, and they would go from something special to just some endgame cutscene (likely bugged/obstructed anyway) that people would get tired of really quickly.
With Mori animations being "locked" behind victory, this will also drastically increase tunnelling, proxy-camping and slugging in order to see the "victory cutscene". I'd wager this would make many people treat mori animation as a form of bm (further rubbing in their face their loss by extending the game).
Do people really want games to be even more sweaty and stale? It's bad enough that the Killer meta is arguably the most stale it's been in years and tunnelling (and by proxy Survivors going next on 1st hook) has gone up since 7.5.0, we don't need something to encourage people to play in a way that ruins the fun for everyone involved while having even less chance to see different perks.
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Reducing the bleedout timer isn't the answer, in fact this would encourage players to slug aggressively since they would get a lot more pressure.
However I think that adding a "bleedout" button should be a thing when either;
A: every remaining Survivors are downed.
B: only two Survivors remain and one is downed.
Slugged Survivors, if downed too early/don't like the Killer etc, would simply stop people from healing them and die quicker.
People going next on 1st hook is already a common thing, no need to add another way to leave early while avoiding the DC penalty and not leaving a bot behind.
It's the whole reason why basekit yellow Mori (or the dreadful finisher mori idea) isn't a good idea: it would encourage slugging even more which would drag out games even more often.
Side-note: Do people really think that if the only way to see a mori was to 4k that Killers wouldn't sweat/hard-tunnel/camp more than ever and wouldn't always slug for the 4k? What's even worse is that Killers wouldn't hook the last Survivor, they would stand over the one with the most remaining bleedout timer and wait to mori the last one. That's why the mori system is fine now and makes them special and pretty rare instead of just being a cutscene you'll see in most matches that will get old quickly.
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Yeah it's a placebo effect and it makes sense.
With Survivors suddenly no longer packing gen-speed builds on the regular and Killers no longer able to stack regression (on purpose at least) the games feel more relaxed unless the Killer decides to hard-tunnel.
I did notice a prevalence of multiple flashlights even when playing SoloQ though (since items aren't random) and it makes sense since what are the odds the Killer will get Lightborn and/or Franklin's?
The modifier is fun though and imo should become a setting you can toggle in regular matches (separating queues will just hurt queue times). It made me learn a couple things about perks I hadn't touched in months.
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I honestly didn't notice sabo being that common in the PTB, to be honest I wasn't even sure the change had been implemented since people in my games are apparently more busy getting stuck in mimics and locker-warping than sabo'ing (can't really blame them).
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@Nazzzak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3721403#Comment_3721403
I've been playing for well over 3 years and tunnelling has probably been the most prominent complaint I've seen in that time. I personally don't see it that much (according to my stats about 1 in every 12 games) but thinking this started with update 7.5 is just plain wrong lol and the big perk overhaul update of 6.1 happened because of lack of variety in perks and builds. Again, not a direct result of 7.5. It went much further back than that.
The tunnelling didn't start at 7.5.0, I never said that.
Tunnelling got worse since then though. There's always been tunnelling and there always will be as long as there's bitter players and/or too little options. But I've been playing since shortly after Myers came out (took a several months break shortly before Trickster release when I got tired of being threatened or called slurs every other game) and in the last couple months I've seen, went through, and heard so many people saying tunnelling is almost as bad as the first few weeks after DS was nuked. And it makes sense.
If the options other than tunnelling are getting less effective and numerous there's bound to be an increase especially for weaker/M1 Killers that are more reliant on perks than the powerhouses. It's just logical even if nobody likes it. Even Killer players don't like it because the game is becoming more and more stressful against decent Survivors if not playing aggressively, especially as a Killer on the weaker side.
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Ok so, even though the perk itself was DOA (I honestly don't think I've ever seen the perk outside of adepts and Doctors using a skillcheck build, and even then it's not like it gives much value against Survivors with a kernel of experience), I recently found out (due to the new random mode) that the perk "Undone" actually takes away 2 regression events per kicks if tokens are used. Warning spikes showed up at 2 kicks and 2 kicks later the middle gen of Ormond was unkickable. Had to make sure I wasn't crazy so I confirmed in a custom with a friend afterwards.
Like, you can't make this up, a perk that's made for the specific purpose of making Survivor's mistakes cost them more (more missed skill checks=more regression) actively works against you by effectively halving your regression events. And this perk released almost at the same time as the Anti-3-gen!
The Shuffle mode, since it makes me use, and face, perks that I haven't used/faced in months, is reminding me why perk variety went down since the Anti-3-gen and only worsened with time. Literally all it would need to be perfect is to only trigger at 2 gens remaining (4-gen spawns are sadly a thing).
(Side-note: getting Boon: Illumination, Detective's Hunch and Kindred just overloads the screen with aura it's hilarious XD).
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I mean, the tunnelling (and by proxy Survivors going next more often) is a direct result of many changes that started with the "Anti-3-gen" implemented in 7.5.0, the regression limit killed most regression perks and many non-regression kick perks overnight leaving Pop and Pain Res the only viable slowdown options for Killers on the weaker end of the spectrum, there's a reason Surge and Eruption are barely seen compared to before.
Then STBFL and Sloppy/all Mangled & Hemorrhage add-ons (both good perks that the top-tiers didn't use that often due to being M1-based perks) got nerfed hard so non-regression options were further reduced (at higher MMR, Survivors won't heal through the Mangled/Hemorrhage and will simply slam gens until they can heal at normal speed, making the perk almost worthless after a certain threshold of experience).
Then later Ultimate Weapon was nerfed into oblivion (literally never saw a single Killer using this in my games since the nerf) so another one of the perks that was used to stay in chase often instead of relying on gen-slowdown was killed, further reducing options.
And now the devs want to nerf the last few slowdown perks remaining. How are weaker/M1 Killers supposed to compete against decent teams with less and less options to slow down gens other than playing more aggressively?
I hate the current state of the game that started in 7.5.0 and worsened to this day, perk variety died and the Anti-3-gen, despite being a good idea on paper, killed variety by working the whole trial, if it only kicked-in at 2 gens left (to account for area-denial Killers and nasty 4-gen spawns in smaller maps) it would open the doors to non-regression kick perks and other regression perks again while still preventing endless games and remove some pressure from the weaker Killers.
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@drwilburdaffodil said:
Yep, just chiming in to say it still affects normal gameplay, and blocks generators so far apart from each other that no one could ever consider them as part of a 3 gen. Hell I played a pig match with only Pain Res and a gen blocked purely because it was the middle gen and the survivors were throwing themselves on it.
Yeah this tends to happen easily when going up the mmr ladder (there's even a video in this very thread showing exactly this happening), good enough players can take advantage of that with enough awareness. However it only really works against weaker/M1 Killers due to having not enough mobility/lethality to effectively be able to chase/keep Survivors away from the gen.
I see the thing they wanted to go for, and the sentiment is nice despite the method being flawed, but it only really should only kick-in when there's 1 or 2 gens left (some of the smaller maps do tend to sometimes spawn nasty 4-gen setups that stronger/area-denial Killers like Skull Merchant, Knight or Blight can still defend decently). As long as maps are small enough and spawns are weird enough to create those setups then the Anti-3-gen should perhaps account for a 4-gen possibility (especially with Killers such as Singularity or Skull Merchant that can control a vast area).
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This will encourage the Killer even more to slug for the 4k….yipee….
Downs and slugs one Survivor, goes after the other;
If the slug bleeds out before the other Survivor is found then it's a Hatch game and if they get downed there's no hope of wiggling out.
If the other Survivor is found and downed, the Killer simply stands over the Survivor with the most bleedout timer remaining and kills them the moment the other one bleeds out, invalidating Hatch entirely and dragging the game even longer.
At least it's an option I guess so friendly/playful/merciful Killers will still be able to give Hatch (the game really needs wholesome moments to make the rest of the game since 7.5.0 bearable) although I'm surprised that this suggestion (a very popular one that was brought forth mostly during the dreadful Finisher Mori/Basekit Ubreakable PTB) was actually thought about.
However Mori offerings (barring the yellow one of course) should stay and most importantly, perks that grant the ability to Mori shouldn't be touched. We already have so many bp offerings and there's no need to add more to the pile, let the other Mori offerings as they are and let the few perks granting Mori alone, we don't need to do things that will lower perk variety even more than it is (and 7.5.0 arguably started one of the most stale and predictable perk era in years with no sign of changing, in fact it's getting worse every update, the D&D perks will likely change it slightly for a few weeks until all the adepts are done and the hype is gone).
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I don't know...this rework helps a bit but also exacerbate the issue that the devs are going to create if their nerfs goes to live: lack of built-in slowdown and Survivor incentive to interact with Killer power while creating another issue in the form of his power eventually becoming little more than a cooler-looking Demo Shred but more punishing on a miss. An example of this is one of Myers's main issue is that (barring certain add-ons) he has a strict limit on his power which means failure to kill Survivors quickly will result in being a permanent M1 Killer with no power, making infection not working after X amount of cleansing (especially if sprays are infinite) would create a similar problem on Wesker.
Quite frankly I think the two nerfs together are too much. Wesker's infection is part of the reason why he's less stressful to play than the average Killer since Survivors don't wan't to be slowed down (even if it took ages) because being at risk of being insta-downed is...well pretty common and doesn't make much difference to decent Survivors (Billy, Bubba, Oni, Myers, half-decent Plague and Legion players effectively keep people injured 90% of the game, dozens of perks and add-ons causing Exposed etc.) but being hindered is a threat even to good Survivors since previously near-infinite tiles are now far weaker and holding W isn't as efficient, making even good players take the time to cleanse (even then, some would rather take the risk if they are in a SWF and aware of the Killer's status).
Tunnelling is indeed an issue (although Wesker is by no means the best at it, he's just more common to face than the Killers that are better at it) but it could have easily been fixed by making the infection post-unhook start progressing only after a conspicuous action (or a certain amount of time has passed).
Literally all they have to do to fix tunnelling off hook with Wesker is treat the infection like DS/OTR.
The hindered strength should stay at 8% (after ages) to still be a threat and give some slight slowdown even against good players. I however wouldn't be against infection going back lower than 50% (hell, even though it's still a considerable nerf, I don't mind the infection going to 1% post-hook. Although it does give a ridiculous amount of time).
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@MechWarrior3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/413571/decisive-strike-nerfed-again
The devs already said they will never do that as killer powers should never be affected by a perk.
Calm Spirit: invalidates the info of screams (and by proxy most of Doctor's power) essentially making the Killer just hope the Survivors are new enough for weird skill checks to make a difference.
Iron Will/any perk that affect scratch marks/blood/noise: effective counter to Spirit phasing.
(Not quite a perk but worth a mention) flashlight can kick Legion out of their power and Champion of Light can make this even stronger. Tough to do but possible.
Head-on and Flashbang can respectively kill & blind Nemesis's zombies, which provides both info and slowdown (weak and unreliable they may be, it's still part of his kit).