Eruption Update Suggestion
Ever since the anti 3-gen change, there is exactly one perk that is suffering unfairly.
For almost every perk that revolves around kicking or damaging generators, eight uses per generator is perfectly fair, but the problem with Eruption is that it doesn't get eight uses per generator- it gets four.
To arm Eruption on a generator, you need to kick it, using up one regression event for a basic kick. Then, when you down someone, that's another regression event for taking 10% total progress off. Pair that with the fact that Eruption shines best when it's applied to multiple generators at once, and you start chewing through regression events even when you aren't really going out of your way to aggressively defend generators.
To sort of remedy this issue, and maybe make running Eruption with literally anything else that damages gens/revolves around kicking gens slightly more feasible, I propose the following change: Kicking a generator with Eruption off cooldown will no longer apply the basic instant regression to a generator, but it will start it regressing like normal. In exchange, the regression from getting a down is increased to 15% to keep the overall number the same.
Importantly, any extra regression you'd typically get from other perks, like the 30% current from Pop, should still apply. We want Eruption to not be chewing through extra regression events, but we don't want it to cover for actual regression perks being used alongside it. Additionally, while Eruption is on cooldown after a use, the 5% instant regression would apply again; it's only when the perk is "active" that this change applies.
With the above two caveats, I think this would be a fair change that enables Eruption's use in builds that aren't stacking regression, and helps it feel less punishing in close matches where it's used fairly frequently. It normalises the perk nicely, in my opinion.
Comments
I had thought just to make it 15% since it eat 2 regression events per 1 use. Removing 5% from kicking will make this risky perk even more risky and i doubt someone will bring it. Imo, or it should be 20% with your suggestion, or just buff it to 15%.
Eruption isn't really a weak or risky perk now, it's quite good. The only issue it has is that it chews through two regression events per use, and while that's not a death sentence for using it on its own, it does severely limit what other perks you should really feel comfortable running alongside it.
The same amount of slowdown, arguably more since it happens in a chunk rather than staggered, would be more than enough of a benefit in exchange for removing that downside. Remember, you'll still get the normal 5% while Eruption is on cooldown with this change, it should only apply when you're marking gens for Eruption anyway.
eruption was designed to have 15-25 second incapacitation effect. This perk got nerfed unfairly. That is why it is providing lack luster game-delay.
For reference, eruption was indirect problem with 3 gen system. Even though it did not directly contribute to unearned slowdown because you needed to down a survivor, its unlimited regression use would allow killers to purposely get downs and slug to stall out the game at lower levels of play.
Surge also affected by this change for same reason because Surge is overpowered in 3 gen situations but apply terrible game-delay outside of 3 gens because it will only hit at most 1 gen due to generator map distribution.
So once they nerfed main culprint's(Overcharge and Cob), Killers that played in this way simply switched to Surge+Eruption. Unfortunately due to the order of changes, Overcharge, Cob, Eruption and Surge are now under-powered.
I do not believe any of that is true, and this change is not aimed at that kind of problem to begin with.
Eruption is currently pretty alright, as far as slowdown goes. 10% total progress off multiple gens at once can be very solid, if you're playing a killer that can minimise the investment needed to apply it- Wraith, for example, is a great user of Eruption at the moment.
My only problem with it right now is how it chews through regression events twice as fast as any other perk. The effect is fine, it's how many times you hypothetically get to use it that I think needs looking at.
Also, the nerf was not unfair, Incapacitated on a perk was ridiculously unhealthy.
15% for 4 tries is only 10% less then pain res. the # uses sounds about right. the missing reward is incap.
It can't be missing from a perk if it should never be on a perk to begin with.
Old Eruption wasn't okay. It shouldn't come back. Current Eruption is pretty good, it's not lacklustre and isn't really missing anything anyway.
Eruption isn't the only perk "suffering unfairly".
Every regression perks except for Pop and Pain Res are simply no longer worth using after a certain threshold of experience (although Eruption and Surge are by far the most affected due to how quickly they chew through regression events for little payoff, especially since a down doesn't necessarily mean a hook) Survivors that don't go down easy (or know how to weaponize the regression limit, it's surprisingly easy, especially for a SWF, if against a Killer on the weaker end of the spectrum/M1 Killers) will minimize the slowdown those perks give while eventually putting the Killer into lose/lose situations at the lategame.
Every non-regression kick perks (Nowhere to Hide, Surveillance, Machine Learning, Dragon's Grip, Trail of Torment, Unforeseen etc.) are also affected since they offer effectively no extra slowdown on their own and aren't meant to regress gens yet take away 1/8 regression events for no guaranteed value and minimal slowdown. If not brought alongside Pop and/or Pain Res they are effectively no longer worth using after a certain experience threshold.
The "Anti-3-gen system" is currently doing way more than it should do. It single-handedly made several perks redundant and effectively made Pop/Pain Res, already popular picks, the only regression perks worth bringing. It also made life more stressful for weaker/M1 Killers due to them needing more slowdown than the powerhouses if they can't steamroll the other side. If the system only kicked-in at 1 gen remaining (even if regression events were reduced to 6-7) then it would make those perks useful again while still removing endless games.
Eight attempts at using a perk per generator is more than enough, especially considering all the slowdown ones require a down of some kind. If you need more than eight downs near multiple generators with Surge, for instance, that kinda starts to bleed into the idea of stalling the game out until you can win by attrition rather than winning through actual good play, which is exactly what this system is designed to stop.
For non-regression kick perks (side note, why on earth is Machine Learning in your list there considering it literally requires the generator to be finished before it functions?), the absolute most you can say about them is that now you probably don't want to use them alongside regression perks, but to that there's two things to say: The first is that there are non-regression slowdown perks to pair them with so that's not a huge blow, and the second is that... I'm not really convinced that's true? You can probably run them with a little bit of thought and caution, you just might be more at risk of seeing the warning spikes pop up- but if that happens as you're winning a match, who cares, right?
Eruption, however, just flat gets less than those eight attempts by the nature of its design, and while I don't think that's so damaging the perk can never be used, I do think it's a little more annoying than it really should be. That's why I say it's the only perk unfairly suffering; the TL;DR is that eight uses per generator is fair but Eruption only gets four.
all regression perk are now burst reward oriented excluding hex:ruin. eruption's burst reward is not worth it. 10% regression is not good enough of burst reward. the same for 8% regression. Those perk were more worthwhile before because they had "unlimited" factor before in 3 gens. this was imbalanced in one way and useless in another way. you had to play specific way to maximize the value of said perks.
Now unlimited factor is gone but burst reward factor was unchanged in the case of surge and nerfed in the case of eruption.
On the topic of Eruption specifically, it's 10% on every affected gen, which makes it much more viable of a burst reward.
Pain Res does 25%, but it does it to one generator. Eruption could hypothetically affect every gen on the map, and realistically is gonna affect about two or three on average, taking off more accumulative gen repair from the survivor team compared to Pain Res and partially countering the more effective strategy of splitting up on gens. Don't get me wrong, Pain Res is better overall, but Eruption is no slouch.
That's not really what I'm here to debate, though. I just want to address it currently being the only perk currently actually harmed by the anti 3-gen system, even if only mildly.
The point isn't reaching the cap before 1 gen is left. Unless you're in a small map (or any map if Survivors keep divebombing the same gen which means they go down near them), using Surge and Survivors keep getting saves/sabos then it's not that easy to reach the cap early.
Like I said in my previous comment, bringing those perks is counter-productive because if the match is tight (at least 3 Survivors still alive or 4 but with some of them on 2nd hook) then 3-gen or not, it's more than likely (especially for weaker/slower/M1 Killers) that at least one of the last gens is around halfway through it's events even if the Killer didn't intend to 3-gen, putting them on the defensive since they need to prioritize a particular gen (which basically means a loss for any of the Killers that can't zoom across the map or end chases in seconds) because they can't afford to kick too much.
It's pretty rare to hit 8 regression events before 4 gens are done (unless using certain perks and/or against certain Survivors) but it's common to end up in a 3-gen that the Survivors created that most Killers can't exactly defend effectively (due to lack of mobility or lethality) despite having no intention to stall.
How is that counterproductive when the whole point of bringing them is to try and close the match out before it gets to that point anyway?
More to the point, when you're in that position, why would you need more than half the regression events when you're close to closing out the match anyway? The only time that'd matter is if you're trying to stop the last generator from being done instead of trying to kill the survivors.
Sure, the survivors 3-genned themselves in this scenario, but what you're describing sounds more like trying to defend generators than it does trying to win the game. I don't see this as convincing, the perks still function exactly as they're supposed to and survivor-created 3-gens are still massively in the killer's favour as long as the killer's actually trying to utilise it.
Except, of course, Eruption, which is more likely to chew through those events due to how it's designed, etcetera. That much is all in the original post, just repeating for posterity.
killer don't have time to kick gens because kicking gen is secondary objective for killer. the only time you affect multiple gens with eruption easily is 3 gens because the 3 gen are close together and your kicking all 3 of them before the down.
for normal gameplay outside of 3 gen, eruption's reward is not there because killer is kicking 1 gen and then downing the survivor, similar pop goes weasel. eruption is now just worse pop goes weasel. the perk was suppose to be a perk that gives less regression with trade off to give incap. The incap is super important for this perk because the killer spends time to kick multiple gens and incap is what gives killer net 0 time loss for multiple gen kicks. It doesn't have that currently so the perk is kick 1 gen and move on.
You'd run Eruption on killers that can minimise that investment if you're worried about that. As I said above, Wraith is a great user of Eruption because he both has the movement speed to get between gens easily, and has addons that help make doing so even quicker.
Any killer with a similar level of map traversal can use Eruption quite well, especially with a supporting build.
Surge is also suffering unfairly - it was literally changed to have no cooldown but lesser damage to take advantage of survivors being out of position. With the 8 regression limit, this perk that does low damage but multiple times ends up working against the killer causing incredibly quick lockups. I have literally had 3 regression surge events within 20 seconds before due to terrible survivor planning. That's nearly half the allotted charges within the first few minutes of the match!
Also, any non regression kick perk also suffers unfairly.
Every time Surge activates, you get a down, necessarily. That's the thing that activates it. Now, obviously not every down results in a hook, but most do, and I just don't see a way you could be getting multiple downs near generators that are in progress and not be winning.
In order to reach the cap, the only point at which the system matters, you'd have to get eight downs near that generator. That's enough to have killed two survivors easily even considering that not all of them necessarily translate to hooks, how could you possibly need more than that? To be clear, I'm not arguing that you should be okay with hitting the cap because of this, I'm saying that you shouldn't even be noticing the cap because the game's already over at that point, you don't have to care about that generator with two dead and a third on the way unless it's the last gen of the match- and even then it's hardly that important.
As for non-regression kick perks, I disagree. Eight uses per generator is perfectly fair for pretty much every perk I can think of, especially the ones that are actually worth using to begin with. At most you'd maybe have to make the conscious decision not to spam them, that's all.
Year, Eruption is in a weird spot in my opinion because you have to give two genregressiontokens and to take the little risk (not a huge) that you won't get the regression because the survivor pop the generator faster than you thought/a down takes longer or the survivor forgot the generator and Eruption does nothing. You also have to make the choice if apling Eruption is really worth/you have the time.
Don't get me wrong, Eruption is still a good perk, especially on mobility killers that also get downs quickly like Nurse, Wraith, or Xenomorph, but it would be great if it would do more regression. I agree with @fussy idea of how to buff Eruption:
The issue with your idea @jesterkind is that the missing 5% from the normal kick could make the different between getting Eruption value or not.
In general, I kinda miss the old genkickingperks in CoB and CO (but not old Eruption that was so stupid). Their nerf back than was good, especially when looking at old-Skull Merchant, but now with the 3Gen-Mechanic, I think these perks could get back their old power and would be healthy. Same with Hex: Ruin it would be better if it's deactivate when one survivor is dead but does 175%regression instead of 100%). They could also open more diversity in case of gencontrolperks for killers. But this is off topic and just random thoughts from me.
If you get 3 downs, you realistically are only going to get one hook, at least at higher levels of play. You're going to have people recovered by the time you get a hook, and the other survivor easily pops them up, and that's not including the multitude of perks that can undo a downed state.
For your second paragraph, you're ignoring the cases where there are kicks or other regression events occurring. If someone is SOLEY using surge and Surge alone and refusing to kick, maybe, but that's fairly rare. I had a match just the other day where we were up against a knight. He lost 5 of his charges on a gen in the first 3 minutes of the match. We were all focusing on the center gen on rpd, so the moment he'd come mid, we'd leave, then immediately jump on the gen, again. Between his minion kicks and him trying to use nowhere to hide (we had distortion), he didn't have a chance. Gen locked up permantely before the mid-point of the match.
https://youtu.be/JsA8ApZOCTA?si=UMg5u1EbKE8kYAjDOh, sure, if the downs are all back to back in a short enough timeframe that you didn't have a chance to pick them up in between, that's probably only one hook, but it still puts the survivors on a pretty noticeable back foot. Worst case scenario you've stalled out all the gen repair and dragged all the survivors into the same place where it's harder for them to reset without scattering. I'll grant it's technically still the system affecting you in scenarios outside of what it's designed for, but that scenario is imo one of the acceptable edge cases because it's relatively uncommon and still breaks in the killer's favour pretty heavily.
As to the second part, yeah, that was on purpose. I was attempting to respond to the strongest version of the position I could, because considering times where the killer's throwing by kicking gens constantly instead of getting into chase would only weaken the opposing argument and I didn't think that was fair.
Like the video you posted, where a player repeatedly bangs their head against the same generator for honestly zero benefit, prioritising damaging the generator over finding the survivor coming back to repair it. That player is both playing poorly and doing the thing this system is designed to stop, which is repeatedly stalling the same generator in a very defensive playstyle.
I don't want to pick apart this one video too much, it's easy to get lost in the sauce of critiquing very specific gameplay instead of making a broader point, but if that Knight would've just sent the guard out to the generator as a patrol instead of repeatedly trying to stall the repair on it with a regression event, this'd be a moot point. Because they wanted to keep stalling that generator, they hit the system designed to stop excessive gen stall.
Yeah, that's what i'm about. Eruption is risky, because it's easy not to get value at all from it, especially on a hot gen. Just remove 5% will make it even more risky, and at least it should be rewarded more.
Fair mostly, but a slight correction. The 8 regression limit was not to stop people overlay defending a gen (lets face it, that gen on rpd is VITAL, so defending that gen is what almost any killer will do), the 8 regression system was specifically to stop killers who focused on a 3 gen at the beginning of the match and refused to progress the objectives. They wouldn't chase, wouldn't hook. They would just camp the 3 gen to prolong the match as long as possible. Clearly the knight was not doing this - he was actively chasing and hooking, so no, the system was not designed for his kind of situation.
I would personally argue those two things are linked pretty heavily, is the thing. The reason those aggressive 3-gen games were a problem was because of excessive gen stall, that's the mechanism being used to stall the match out forever. In the same vein, if it were possible to use excessive gen stall to get the same result without requiring the defence of a 3-gen specifically, that'd be equally problematic- this was somewhat seen in the Eruption meta, for example.
Excessive gen stall is the root cause of the 3-gen problem, anything they did to tackle 3-gens like that would necessarily require weakening excessive gen stall. It's not a binary, it's a sliding scale: someone like this Knight, who wasn't aggressively defending a 3-gen, was still very heavily prioritising gen damage, so they'd notice some of the system. By contrast, someone who was aggressively defending a 3-gen as you describe would notice the system way more, because they'd have three gens blocked instead of one, those three gens would be the last ones at the end of the match, and they'd have nothing else to show for it-- unlike the Knight who was actually getting hooks and had multiple gens' worth of time left to correct their mistake.
TL;DR, fixing those 3-gen games requires tackling excessive gen stall, and anyone who participates in excessive gen stall without trying that 3-gen tactic is gonna notice a proportionately smaller amount of the system because of it.
True, but they specifically said this system was ONLY supposed to affect users who intentionally camped a 3 gen from the beginning of the match that refused to do objectives. This was to essentially stop trolls, not stop people from viably defending a vital gen on maps like Ormond or rpd...and certainly not yo nerf weak m1 killers who literally are not allowed to patrol far away gens due to no map traversal abilities - they naturally have to stay more in the center of the map and in turn are far more likely to be negatively affected by perks like surge.
Weren't their words that it's not supposed to affect the average match, rather than that you won't notice it at all unless you're doing the most extreme version of the problem?
Either way, I don't feel their specific wording on the topic matters all that much. It working the way it does now is perfectly fine, healthy, and has the added bonus of giving some very light feedback to killer players not to focus on defending generators. That is, after all, not their objective, just a tool you'll use here and there.