SirCracken
SirCracken
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@Tsulan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1893363#Comment_1893363
I voted for customizable hooks but not... this.
Imagine being able to modify hooks to look like in the underground complex.
But instead we got charms...
I would very much to be able to choose how my hooks look.
Even something as simple as choosing the design from the selection already in the game, it's way better than the charms.
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@BlooperReel said:
I kinda feel this. One of my major gripes with Dead By Daylight is that it feels like it's trying to be something that it's not.
A big comparison that accurately reflects what one would typically expect from a game like this is Rainbow Six: Siege. Why? It's got similar elements, the big difference is that it's a tactical shooter game but the fundamentals are practically the same.
DBD likes to create this world which is great but the world they generate isn't something that necessarily pertains to what is going on inside the realms, just beyond it. I don't mind lore but it feels like they are pushing stories too much and are using a once convenient expository device to now go absolutely ham. It's their game they can do what they want but it feels like the lore outweighs the game by a wide margin. At one point the entity was this pan dimensional (literally speaking) entity that wasn't just in the shadows, it was the shadows. At the start Benedict Baker went on this odyssey to discover just what did happen at the MacMillan Estate and why was the town of Weeks so mysterious and blah. Now there's the Cult of Skaro in the depths of like Paris or something makin up ryhmes to summon a creature that apparently can be summoned or whatever. It was nice having scraps of lore where Benedict Baker and the alchemist filled in some of the gaps but now everything is being explained in great detail and if you missed the lore in Book #119 you'll not understand anything in Book #10,050.
I can understand some things like with Pyramid Head being blindable. Every other killer can be and it would be a waste if you brought a purple flashlight, didn't get to use it and lost it all in one roll. It's a balancing thing so I can understand. I always went with the idea that the helmet was just full of tiny little holes, but like a hundred [BAD WORD] little holes.
I do tend to think some of the cosmetics drift away from the original idea but I'm not super out of it. R6 does the same thing and like I said, it's a pretty solid comparison.
In the end I think Character lore and scraps from Benedict and the Alchemist would have sufficed but now we have Shakespeare's 150 part epic.
I think the game drifted too far away from itself and forgot exactly what it was. Like Kate Denson.
I agree with almost everything you said except PH getting blinded. You mentioned how it would be a waste for the survivor if they brought a flashlight and couldn't use it because the killer would be immune. Well...https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Lightborn
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1893431#Comment_1893431
I'm not gonna lie, it really does seem like you hate nuance. You want characters to be one-dimensional, you dislike the variety in their outfits and you criticise the syntax of their backstories. Sorry you can't tell everything about a character from their appearance, but I guess that's what happens when developers want a little realism in their game.
You think that the developers of Dead by Daylight, a game based on the dramatic and horrific nature of slasher films, are adding in flowery designer outfits for their objectively 1-dimensional characters to wear, so their game can be more realistic?
My only guess as to why you would make a claim that ludicrous is because you are greatly attached to one of the characters I mentioned and feel an unnatural need to defend them.
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@ukenicky said:
I understand where you're coming from about Jane but her default outfit is her work attire. I don't know how they could have designed her differently to put more character in just from visuals alone but aside from that you can tell a little from her body language. She has a certain energy to her that other survivors don't, idk how but when I look at Jane I can tell there's something different about her, yeah maybe I can't tell right away that she's a talk show host / big name TV figure but there's definitely elements that all allude to that and the dots get connected fast once you read their backstory.
The Smash Bros example I can't take seriously at all I'm sorry but they took Bayonetta who has some of the most ridiculous god level powers and reduced her (Literally in size lol) to an ultra lightweight fragile funsy character that honestly? Looking at close details there are so many things that aren't true to her original game like at all.
And that's OK I don't expect her to have ALL of her weapons or be able to OHKO people with torture attacks but she (And all other characters added) all get affected by literally everything that would affect the base characters because it kind of has to work that way for the game as a whole?
The same goes for killers in this game. Let me just go into the pyramidhead example, pyramidhead can already completely bypass ever having to use hooks with his power which if I may add is a MASSIVE boon to him. Imagine for a moment if he could also just never have to worry about flashlights / if he had an innate light born effect? Now you have a killer that ignores all hook related perks and flashlights without even needing to bring lightborn just from the killers base kit alone. That's gross lol so some of these things are obviously for balance. And come on, Freddy is pretty good all things considered. The fact that he has SO many options imo makes it feel like they really tried their hardest to make him fit in as much as they possibly could to the point he literally has too much in his kit.
I agree Pig and Demogorgon feel weak at times but they're still unique in their own ways compared to every other killer.
Idk I'm just not feeling it. I don't defend BHVR on everything but this I have to give them the point on. I don't think there's anything too wrong with every character added thus far and there's always room for improvement and fixing with what's here currently.
"I don't know how they could have made her any differently to put more character in just from visuals alone..."
Because she has so little character to begin with. The fact that she's a popular TV host makes her unrelatable, and her backstory, that tries to show her as an actual human with has to hide her emotions to do her job, fails spectacularly because of the modern writing style and makes Jane come off as an angsty drama queen. As you said, her idle animations show off a tiny bit of character. But seeing a small part of character through an animation that you don't even see while playing as her is nothing compared to just looking at someone and understanding exactly what their is personality.
"The Smash Bros example I can't take seriously at all..."
Do you play Smash Bros at all? Did you know that when Bayonetta first released she was one of the most powerful characters in that game and had to be nerfed later on? Be ignoring that, her appearance in Smash Bros is faaaaar more accurate to her original medium that any of the dbd licensed killers, excluding Michael. Bayonetta can still use witch time, her heel guns, fly, perform astounding acrobatics, and beat the hell out of people by transforming her outfit into a giant monster. Her overall powerlevel has been pushed down so the game is still fair for everyone, but that's the point of Smash Bros; to have a whole bunch of characters from different franchises beat the snot out of each other in interesting ways.
Now let's look at every single dbd licensed killer.
- Michael Myers - Is a very strong guy that stabs people with a knife and is known to stalk his victims before attacking. He stalks people in the game until he is able to insta-down them and has several add-ons that allow him to kill people on the spot, like how he does in his films. He's depicted fairly accurately.
- Pig - In the films she is shown to be a cunning and devoted disciple of Jigsaw who eventually bastardised his teachings in favour of murdering people she thought were beyond redemption, instead of always giving people a chance to escape the unique traps they were ensnared in. In the game, she uses 1 trap out of the entire arsenal used in the films, which survivors can still escape from by searching the boxes with keys in them. Ignoring how highly out-of-character this is for Amanda, she's still an agile and determined women who wants to murder the survivors, and yet she vaults windows at the same speed as the bigger and less agile killers and instead of just vaulting over a pallet like survivors do she breaks them with her foot. The way she acts in game and how her traps function are not very accurate to her appearance in the films.
- Freddy - A psychopath that manifests in the dreams of his victims and enjoys scaring and torturing in various creative ways before finally killing them. But he is powerless when in the real world. The Freddy we have now can attack people regardless if they are asleep or not. The only powers he can use when people are asleep is a bloody puddle that slows them down a bit and prevents fast vaults on windows, and fake pallets that explode into blood when used. He can also teleport to gens. Compared to all the stuff he can do in the movies, his appearance in dbd is severally lack-lustre.
- Demogorgon - A trans-dimensional horror that is extremely resistant to guns and fire. It hunts by sensing blood and pulling victims into the "upside down" where it either devours them or traps them in a web-like substance until they die. In the game, the portals that Demo uses do not allow it to travel into the upside down but instead to another point on the map. Survivors cannot be dragged into upside down either. Demo is also easily stunned by a pallet, a survivor jumping out of a locker, or a small piece of glass. They are a very far cry from their appearance in the show.
- Leather face - A big, strong guy with a chainsaw and a mental deficiency. The game is accurate for the most part. Except with LF hits an object or holds his chainsaw for too long, causing him to thrash about for a little while rather than continue after the survivors he's psychologically conditioned to chase. He is depicted fairly accurately.
- Pyramid Head - A manifestation of guilt. PH exists to punish people and does so with a massive iron machete. He is very slow and clumsy, and vulnerable to bullets, but also, unrelenting and will not stop hunting someone until they accept themselves and what they have done. PH in the game moves fairly quickly, doesn't use the full length of his machete for attacks except to finish someone off, and has a bizarrely out of place ranged wave-attack that goes through walls. Survivors who get "tormented" by walking through the trail he leaves suffer no debuffs except the terrible png image stuck on their screen, or the PH uses certain add-ons. His depiction in the game is very far from how he is in the Silent Hill series.
You've completely missed the point I made about Pyramid Head. Not only would giving him immunity to blindness make perfect sense, and be not nearly as overpowered as you're making it out to be, but it also be a step into making him much more true to his character. How he is now, how most of the other DLC characters are now, is completely laughable compared to the level of detail that characters get in Smash Bros.
The devs have done this intentionally as they know that making these characters as they should be would take effort, time and money. Which is why they deserve criticism and for their soulless plans for the game need to be changed so it might actually improve.
But it won't.
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@steezo_de said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1893348#Comment_1893348
"The community, which rarely agrees on stuff, agress that we urgently need several health patches AND a break from new killers, survs and perks until the landslide the current perk pool is has been cleaned up."
I don't think this part is true, at least not for the silent DBD playerbase-- those away from the forums. I think they believe this game is mostly fine-- not in fantastic shape, but good enough that they're willing to put up with some of the silly stuff as long as they get fresh content and see that the really bad bugs get fixed.
"The devs don't seem to agree."
This is because there is no solid evidence that shows massive amounts of people leaving because of the current state of the game. When people leave, it's mostly because they're burnt out after playing for hundreds if not thousands of hours or want to try something different. And a lot of them usually return with the new content. That's my hunch at least, based on steamcharts.
I actually agree with the first statement. Most people who play the game think that not "much" is wrong and are willing to put up with most of the game's problems.
And for the second statement, this is the main reason why the devs of now are so un-spirited and lazy compared to when they first started making the game, excluding the extra people now helping them. Unless a massive chunk of the player base leaves and they are at financial risk, they are not going to fix the game's massive underlying problems. They have no reason to because they no longer care about the quality of the game unless it impacts their ability to keep making money off it.
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@SilentPill said:
It’s a casual hack and slash horror game on the competitive level of Mario kart. I don’t think the ridiculous skins are too out of place.
The fact that the game isn't competitive doesn't mean it can't have a good atmosphere. Mario Kart is inherently absurd and silly. Dbd is supposed to be a horror game. Having the characters wear outfits that don't connect with their backstory and are just there to look nice take away from the atmosphere for the sake of fan fare.
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@MadLordJack said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1893414#Comment_1893414
I love how you call interesting characters "poorly designed." Do you just really hate nuance?
I struck a nerve I think.
Explain to me how any of the characters that I mentioned, that have uninspired designs that convey nothing about their personalities, that have backstories that have every phrase ending with a full stop like they were told by an asthmatic after a kilometre run, that have some of the most out-of-place cosmetics in the game that just exist for the sake of existing, are interesting?
You can still like them. I never said that because they aren't well designed that you shouldn't play as them. But don't use the word "nuance" to describe what is literally a collection textures.
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@MadLordJack said:
Characters, specifically survivors, aren't supposed to fall into visual stereotypes, especially since there's so many characters and not that many typical stereotypes. They all have their unique identities that aren't shown in their entirety by equipping clothes because the Devs have moved away from 1-dimensional archetypes. In fact, I would say that Dwight is the flawed character, because he has little depth. One look and you know what you are dealing with.
As for the rest... Yes, but also DbD has never really had much of a direct and simple identity to begin with, as someone who has been aware of and watching content around the game since its release but didn't play it til early 2019. It's a problem with being the only successful example of not only a big genre (assymetrical team-based PvP games) but also a niche in that genre (assymetrical horror).
For a game like dbd, that has almost no character dialogue and has to convey it's overall story completely separate from the gameplay, having characters that you can easily relate to just by looking at them is great design. Dwight isn't very complex by any means. But he's recognisable since the "nerdy" architype is well known by the people who watch horror films and are whom dbd is marketed towards. So he's a well designed character for the game.
Most of the characters that the developers have designed since Dwight somehow have even less of a personality than he does. They do not fall into traditional architypes and instead have bland, poorly written backstories and no characteristics other than their physical appearance. They're empty puppets that the player makes dance around in game that exist solely to have a specific visual aesthetic and nothing more.
Imagine if Jane, felix, or any of the other poorly designed characters like them were put into an actual horror movie. They'd be fodder for the antagonist so the main characters, (that all good slasher films make clearly distinct from the side characters), seem more under threat.
Dbd had a much simpler identity earlier on because the idea that the devs realised into a video game was the only goal of theirs at the time. They had no idea the game would take off like it has, so they focused solely on realising their vision. Now, they don't even have to bother anymore. The game is far better designed to make money than give players an interesting experience. The 2 are not synonymous. Just look at the Fifa line of games. Dbd has way more in common with them now than the slasher films it was based off of.
That's why its identity is so scattered. The original idea behind the game as been so morphed and twisted that it's barely recognisable anymore.
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@Terro said:
What do u mean? DBD's image of a casually competitive, horror themed children's party game of tag that only has one gamemode has never been any less confusing.
You're correct, in a way.
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Thinking about it now, was there anyone in the community at all that wanted charms? Why were they added? Why not give full hook customisation instead of putting these ugly little trinkets in 3 predetermined places?
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@MeltingPenguins said:
Yeah. DBD is having the same issue as WoW: the developers not decided on WHO to make the game for. Like, right now (interference from covid not withstanding) it feels like every idea is thrown at the wall and no one waits what sticks.
The recent HuD update? A mess. Does it matter WHAT big features they are planning that require it? No, because we neither know what these features will be nor when they'll come. We are given a car without wheels and are told to drive because the wheels they are working on will be great.
The original Killers might looked messy, but there IS a certain rhyme and reason to it. While the licensed ones are... shooting BHVR's own foot with a shotgun. Licenses cost money, and I am not certain they actually attract enough paying customers to justify it. So it results in lots of nonsense pay-to-whatever bits and pieces that the game wouldn't need in this amount if it weren't for the licensed characters.
Then there's the recent changes to the lore with this entity cult etc, which still comes across as failing at 'less is more' and failing at it hard.
The community, which rarely agrees on stuff, agress that we urgently need several health patches AND a break from new killers, survs and perks until the landslide the current perk pool is has been cleaned up.
The devs don't seem to agree.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Everything about dbd is just wasted potential.
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Mindbreaker. Apparently using a perk designed to counter a very specific collection of perks is toxic
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@Zarathos said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1886337#Comment_1886337
I'm not going to pretend that wins is all that matters but if your telling me your killer design is purely fun factor then let me remind you modern killer design has lend itself to more competitive designs this is due to the dbds competitive player base who insist on spamming your ez's and bad killer garbage. Powers that are flexible powerful and not prone to rudimentary counters is what matters first design and theme secondary. Examine the blights, oni, deathslinger design for reference on a killer that is not only fun but actually powerful. Thematically unique killer designs has resulted in killers like legion and the twins whom are problematic because there design doesn't acknowledge the basic requirements a killer needs to have in order to have depth and pressure nor play by any established dbd conventions. This often makes them a nightmare to balance. Mobility, gen control and lethality. If a killer fails on any of these categories they are trapped in b tier or lower and will appeal to very few killer players. Old Freddy had his appeal tracking and being where a survivor least expected it sneaking up on unsuspecting survivors and manipulating his phasing in and out of reality a true dream demon but his gameplay presented the dream demon as the butt of every survivors joke.
His original power never translated well in terms of being a consistent threat and many regarded him as inferior weak and frustrating to play. Address the issue of staring dead face at a survivor doing a key gen without an ability to interact and we can talk but until then your killer has far to much counterplay is lacking in power and while thematically works well come across as powerless weak and pathetic. Remember you creating a POWER role killer. If you feel weak or powerless then you have failed.
I'd argue modern Freddy was a success he merely needs tweaks and his power reduced slightly with add on changes to his gen progression reducers. His use of blood puddles calling on the souls of the damned is in line with the movies. Examples of the microsleep and characters being unsuspectedly brought to his realm is again in line with the movies. Finally Freddy travelling long distances to cut of the unwitting victim off is a staple ability he expresses in many of his movies. Everything about modern Freddy fits. The dream transition however was never once demonstrated in any of the movies. Yet it commonly shows up in these posts why?
I think you greatly mis-understand how important a killer's identity and themes are in a game like this. Dbd would not be a success if their initial killers were not interesting. Much like how a slasher flick lives and dies by how it portrays its antagonist, so does dbd need interesting killers to play as, and against. Designing a killer for the sole purpose of being powerful and neglecting their theme and identity is missing the point of the game in the first place. You aren't playing killer just to have power over other people. You're playing a part of a power fantasy that allows the lessor control of the survivors and the greater control of the killer to create an interesting game as the 2 sides attempt to take power away from the other in various ways until the match is over. At least, that's how the game should be designed.
You mentioned the Twins and Legion being killers designed with theme over viability in mind. But both of them are severally lacking in any identity to speak of. I've already made a lengthy post explaining how Legion's design is poor which I'll link here: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/216162/theory-crafting-a-new-legion#latest
And to keep this reply not as verbose I'm going to summarise why the Twin's have a similar identity issue as Legion. They're supposed to be in a symbiotic relationship. Charlotte is bigger and stronger then Victor but is very clumsy. Victor is small, fast and lethal but is very fragile. The ideal execution of their relationship into gameplay mechanics would be for Charlotte and Victor both having strengths and weaknesses that play off each other and allow the player to use them both in interesting ways. But as they are now, Charlotte is merely a chauffeur to Victor so he can do all the work.
The idea of the Twins heavily contrasts with their portrayal in game and thus makes their identity suffer. Current Freddy has this exact problem and that's what I wanted to fix.
You mention several killers, I'll focus on Deathslinger for my argument, and say how killers need to have certain strengths to be viable. When this is simply not the case and encapsulants what you fail to understand about killer design. You say the killers have to have mobility, gen control, and lethality to be good or they will be "B" tier, (I swear I'm going to lay into these stupid tier lists one of these days...) and that they won't appeal to killer players. But this is easily disproven by the killer pick rate chart released not that long ago, linked here: https://www.thegamer.com/behavior-interactive-reveals-top-pick-kill-rates-dead-by-daylight/#:~:text=The%20Doctor%2C%20Shape%2C%20Cannibal%2C,been%20available%20since%
Although Freddy has the highest kill rate, the next 3 killers behind him are all "Low Tier" killers that have underwhelming powers. And yet people still play them regardless. That is because people can still be engaged with a killer even if they aren't very powerful compared to others because of how the gameplay of that particular killer appeals to them.
This reply is already long enough so I'll say my concluding arguments now.
I never said that current Freddy wasn't a viable killer. My problem was how his overall strength was improved at the cost of his unique gameplay, and more importantly, his identity as a killer. There is no other killer like Old Freddy. Playing against him was, and still is, the closest thing we have ever gotten to a new game mode in over 4 years. He had his problems and I fully admit that. But the solution that the devs gave us took more than it was worth in the end.
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@Kind_Lemon said:
Reading this brought me great enjoyment.
I'm glad you enjoyed it. I had fun writing it.
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@gibblywibblywoo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1886195#Comment_1886195
This. Old Freddy was weak but unique. New Freddy is strong, sure. But he's so boring to play that I dropped him as a 2 year freddy main 2 weeks after the rework. He's also extremely boring to play against due to his absurd synergy with slowdown addons/perks.
This is precisely why I made this post. Not to suggest buffs to old Freddy to make him viable, but to make him fun and interesting. It doesn't matter if you kill anyone in a game as long as the game itself was engaging. Player engagement is far more important than win ratios.
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@Zarathos said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1886073#Comment_1886073
I can't stress enough the dream transition needs to die. It is too prone to frustrating circumstances such as being in front of a survivors who are a mere 3 seconds away from finishing a gen. Let me stress this no dream transition it was a horrible mechanic that no matter how you dress it up will involve staring at a survivor who is finishing a pivotal gen or giving a big heads up im here which imo is less in line with freddys actual character. This boiler room tile is by far the most interesting idea for freddy but also sounds nightmarish (forgive the pun) to programme.
Then we have to acknowledge that the most important part of a killers gameplay is the opening few minites of the game if freddy cant find a way to garner pressure early this entire concept will be wasted. Simple tactics like spreading out could end up making this new freddy a weak killer.
Its fine and dandy to say freddy should be unique and have his own playstyle but you cant ignore the essentials for making a killer viable for the more competitive players. A killer shouldn't be inaccessible in higher levels of play due to rudimentary weaknesses like setup.
I highly disagree. Having a big disadvantage as having to wait before attacking survivors allows many other unique advantages to be used without Freddy becoming overpowered. waiting 7 seconds before being able to attack doesn't matter nearly as much if you have so many other abilities that will win the game in the long term if used properly.
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@Mr_K said:
Rosy Retrospection.
Old Freddy was only good against bad survivors. A M1 killer who had to wait for his hits. A free escape off the hook to the exit gate. A guaranteed hit after 7s. Laughs in Wraith. Seriously, Wraith was considered a better killer.
He wasn't as terrible as people like to remember. But he definitely needed some buffs and was very add-on reliant. Did you feel like my suggestions fixed his problems while still keeping his identity?
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@Maperson said:
I mean i dolike this idea, but devs probably won't do it unfortunately..
Yeah. I still find it fun to theory craft though.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1885880#Comment_1885880
in that case, you have my full support. this freddy is much more interesting and fun than current freddy. but my intuition tells me bhvr will do a bunch of lazy nerfs on freddy and call it a successful rework. imagine if they repeat what they did to legion to freddy. now that would suck
I'm glad you think so. Although I don't think it's every going to be implemented, it's fun to think about.
I dread what will happen if they give Freddy the Legion treatment...
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@[Deleted User] said:
you know, this actually isn't a bad idea, especially blood rivers and the boiler. in fact, it adds skill and strategic usage of the killer power rather than braindead spamming dream pallets and snares we have now. but i think he will be worse than current freddy.
sure it's cool to make a free dead-zone, but there is still no actual reliable chase power in loops, and the condition needed to get the boiler tile is too high. i would just restore the dream laser but reduce the range. one of the big things about dream laser and transition state was that a good freddy would use the flickering to mindgame if he memorized each one. it would be wise to restore that and would make the actual powers easier to get.
and i understand the snowball thing going here, like blood post makes the rescuer go asleep, but i'm afraid it won't be enough given that the killer can only chase one at a time. furthermore, the fact that awaken survivors are not affected at all by the powers is kinda trash.
howbeit, i would prefer this freddy rather than the bland freddy we have. you perfectly explained why new freddy is a boring killer and i completely agree with that. he needs identity as a licensed killer and not a pathetic copy paste of clown's and hag's power
I have no illusions that the Freddy I am putting forth will be better than the one we have now in terms of viability. What I wanted to do was to make him interesting again. So that even if you don't kill everyone you can still have fun playing the game.
I completely respect that you don't think he's going to be very viable. And I'm glad we both agree that current Freddy is boring.
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It'll be a miracle if Legion gets a decent buff of any kind.
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@GoodBoyKaru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1883550#Comment_1883550
Idk man they did manage to spell furthermore as "Further more" and personally I think that's just absolutely completely unacceptable and will be contacting my attorney soon.
I just corrected it. Please don't sue me :(
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@NoelleMina said:
Sickening and beautiful.
I like this description.
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@EvanSnowWolf said:
Dear God.
Italics. Punctuation. Correct spelling.
We need more posters like you. Upvoted.
I'm glad you think so.
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No matter what good changes they make there's going to be several completely useless add-ons that have no place being on Clown that were previously something mildly useful. We can only hope that there's few of them.
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@Almo said:
We don't want it triggering on getting downed by an addoned Bear Trap, or going down to Deep Wound, etc. It's better game design if we don't start stacking up a series of exceptions.
So why not have the perk work whenever a survivor goes down? Why limit such a mediocre effect to basic attacks, the same thing that insta-down perks are limited to, when the perk would be way more useful if it was just universal?
You mentioned people going down to addon bear traps and deep wounds, but the former only happens if the survivor gets trapped to begin with so all other survivors already know where they are, and the latter is simply absurd. No one goes down to deep wounds anymore. You should know this. It's effortless to avoid as long as the survivor has a functioning W key.
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I told people several times before about how the perk was being nerfed when it had no good reason for it.
It's very annoying for me when my favourite perk combo of PWYF and Nemesis, that requires very specific killers and builds to work on, gets nerfed with little regard by anyone.
It should be reverted back next patch.
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@Almo said:
Legion's performance is average; right in the middle of the pack.
You rely far too much on statistics to make your judgements and ignore the clear in-game interactions the determine if any killer is good or bad.
The ranking system is terrible, enabling killers who simply delay the game and get minimal downs, perhaps without even killing anyone, to still rank up. The same goes for survivors do a merely acceptable job of repairing gens, getting chased, and saving others, still ranking up. Allowing them to reach red ranks just playing for long enough without improving.
This is why red ranks are so diluted with players of so much varying skill in games and why your statistics are not as important factor about balancing the game as you think they are. They are skewed with so many variables, like the aforementioned player kill and also map rng, that they do not create an accurate representation of how the game's balance actually is.
I think you should take a greater look into how the game functions so you are more capable of balancing it.
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Dwight - Kill
Meg - Kill
Jake - Kill
Claudette - Kill
Nea - Kill
Laurie - Kill
Ace - Kill
Bill - Kill
David - Kill
Feng - Kill
David - Kill
Quentin - Kill
Tapp - Kill
Kate - Kill
Adam - Kill
Jeff - Kill
Jane - Kill
Ash - Kill
Nancy - Kill
Steve - Kill
Yui - Kill
Zarina - Kill
Cheryl - Kill
Felix - Kill
Elodie - Kill
And yet I still only safety pip :(
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@BastardKing said:
The best way to counter the knife wielding maniac is to not heal your gaping knife wounds.
All the other arguments aside, I really like this line.
I had a chuckle when I thought of it.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1845230#Comment_1845230
I think we best just agree to disagree. You seem to be misunderstanding a lot of what I'm saying and judging from your response I seem to also mis understand a lot of what you are saying.
For example I never said the game should be balanced around me. All i want is not have the repeat of the Fredy situation where gameplay that i enjoyed is just lost forever.
Have a good end of the year and I apologize for the remark about your game designing career. That was indeed uncalled for.
I concur. Have a good end of the year as well!
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1845179#Comment_1845179
The reason I bring up Legion having a fanbase is because when coming up with ideas on reworking a killer, it's important to not completely alienate them.
Look at freddy. There are Old Freddy Mains who literally had their killer removed. Better for the game or not, it's something the devs got a lot of flack for and not something they want repeated again.
Comparatively, we have Doctor and Bubba. Bubba is largely the same with mechanical changes that made him an absolute beast. Doctor's mechanics were heavily simplified so that he was much easier to control, allowing his full potential to be reached. These changes made the killer better, *but* was still very familiar for veterans of their previous form.
Your idea is a drastic rework that would risk repeating Freddy. I urge you to take these factors into consideration when suggesting changes to an existing killer.
Freddy is actually a good example of a bad killer rework. In terms of pure viability he's improved. But his identity has been completely lost in the process. He's a far cry from the Freddy from the big screen and I really don't like what they've done with him. Freddy being a sadist, malious, lurking threat that's waiting for the instant your eyes shut to drag you to his dimension of horrors isn't conveyed in the game at all, a problem that most licensed killers also have.
I would strongly argue, however, that Legion's current identity is sorely lacking and indistinct. They injure people, but have nothing to help get downs like Blight, Huntress or Nurse. They get information, but not as good as Doctor. They delay the game, but not as good as Pig. In a way the pick chart I keep rallying against is actually a great showcase for where they are right now: In the middle of all killers with barely anything interesting about them, even when compared to the killers weaker than them.
That's why I would be very open to changing them drastically to give them a much stronger identity. Although there would be some people...@Sonzaishinai who would feel alienated if they were changed this much, I think they would gain a much stronger identity and many more people would enjoy playing as, and against them compared to how they are now.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1844523#Comment_1844523
First of I litterally said Legion could use some QoL changes and buffs. There is a big difference however between giving a killer some buffs to completly changing how they work.
Second I do believe Nurse is in desperate need to be made more playerfriendly and the pick rates do show that nicely. Once again pickrates show enjoyment levels very well and nurses just shows how miserable she is to play. You just convinced me more of my statement.
And you can't seriously say nurse is fine the way she is. The strongest killer in a survivor favored game and no one wants to learn her cause she is so unenjoyable to play.
Third, Why shouldn't i be pandered too? I paid for the game too last time i checked. There are other killers in the roster if you want a "more interactive killer" as you say it. Why the hell would you take away something from a playerbase to give to another playerbase something they already have. That's just poor business. Not to mention plain arrogant.
Most people don't want to or can't no life this game. Some people have jobs and familly to take care of. And having easy to pick up and play killers is a good thing.
You might not be able to get rapid downs with m1's. But it's most certainly possible if you're good enough against most survivors. Otz won 50+ games in a row. As did Ryuga. I'm sure any redrank worth their salt could. Maybe you should play Legion a bit more and actually learn the m1 game. It's really not that impossible to get hits in.
We are probably not going to come to an agreement so I'll just leave it here. Just know that saying that my opinion doesn't matter cause i don't play 4 hours a day really shows that you shouldn't ever think about a career in gamedevelopment.
You'd find that casual players are the vast mayority and without them this game wouldn't ever be able to support itself.
Don't even understand where that random attack came from. I'm not the one wanting a killer from the game to be completly changed, you are. Why should you be pandered too? Other people do completly fine with Legion, why can't you?
I've said several times now that I made this post with zero intention of my ideas being added into the game. I made it for my own sake and nothing else. Legion getting some QoL changes is honestly the best I can hope for in terms of their design problems at least being acknowledged.
Nurse needs her many bugs and map glitches addressed, and if possible the change to her base power reverted. It was unnecessarily nerfed and just served to make her more frustrating in combination of the bugs I just mentioned. And her low pickrate is symptom of how clunky she is to play. But this does not mean the pick rate chart is an accurate assertion of how well, or poorly, designed a killer is.
Pig has the 2nd highest kill rate in the entire game. But her power is unreliable and generally weak. She's an M1 killer with a bit more time to hunt survivors than other killers and a super situational dash. If we were to follow the logic that the chart is an accurate sign of how well she is designed then it would make sense to nerf her, even though she clearly is not in need of a nerf. That is why Legion being in the middle is not evidence that their design is not massively flawed.
You shouldn't be pandered to because to because balancing the game around the most inexperienced players makes gameplay at higher levels of skill broken and often unfun. Which it often is right now funnily enough. 5 gens being done in 6 minutes or under with an entire team's worth of DS + Unbreakable's makes almost every single killer in the game powerless and those who have the capacity to fight back have to be played near perfectly or they will lose. And furthermore you should know that dbd's new playerbase never stay for long. Most likely because of the problems of the game that they become aware of as they spend more time playing it or they just lose interest. This not might be a problem were the game, and the killers, designed to better accommodate interactive gameplay.
Allow me to use your own argument against you. Let's say that a miracle occurs and the devs suddenly decide to implement my idea, why should you care about Legion being changed when there are other killers in the game that are also have low interactivity and are easy to play such as Plague or Pig? Why should the portion of the playerbase that wants more engaging gameplay be denied because you prefer killers with easy-to-use powers? Is that not arrogance to assume that you know what's best for playerbase despite having little experience in the game?
Yes. Having some killers be not as complicated as others is a good thing. That's why almost every killer in the game is an "M1 killer" because they have to rely on basic attacks rather than the nuanced use of their power. You can still have a fairly simple killer power that can be used creatively, Trapper is a good example of this, but that doesn't erase the very clear issues that his power has. Legion is the same.
What you've failed to realise is that despite my scathing criticisms of Legion's design I do in fact play, and perform very well with them. I know how to mindgame at unsafe loops and make the most out of the information given to me by stabbing people. But guess what? That doesn't make my criticisms of them any less valid. In fact in adds credence to them and the only reason why I even bothered to make this post was because I've played so much of Legion that I wanted to envision them as something more interesting.
Do not EVER use youtubers as evidence for your argument. The fact that 1 guy managed to get a 50+ win streak doesn't prove anything about the killer. It proves that whoever uses them is certainly good with them, but they are the rare exception to the general player base and thus their performance doesn't prove the killer is good. It's like getting an E-sports pro in CS:GO to ace every round with the Glock and then saying "Look how good this gun is!". Also you once again ignore how terrible the ranking system is. Being a red rank isn't a sign of skill. It's a sign of how long you've played the game.
I have said, many times now, that you are completely free to continue liking the killer. But you don't seem to understand the difference between opinions and statements. Saying that Nurse is the best killer in the game is an objective statement. Saying that Nurse is unfun is an opinion. You keeping implying that killers being viable or not is entirely up to user interpretation when that is objectively wrong and can be proven by looking at each killer's abilities when in the hands of a capable player.
And unless you, yourself, are in a career game development, (Which I'm just going to state for the record that I literally just finished a game design course at the end of this year which taught me valuable advice like who to balance your games for) you are in no position to tell me what career I should follow.
Yes. Most players are casual rather than competitive. But as I previously stated most of these new players leave often after they join the playerbase, occasionally returning for a major or seasonal update, showing that dbd has a problem with player retention. I think I've repeated myself enough times on this post so I won't tell you what might possibly help with that.
What attack? I've never attacked you personally during any of my comments. The most I've done is call you ignorant for commenting on how the game should be balanced when you have told me yourself that you are a casual player and do not play the game as often as me.
Let me ask you something. You say you're a casual player, you've implied that you have a job and a family to take care of, why do you attach yourself so much to this fictional character? Why does stating the very obvious flaws they have cause you to take that criticism personally and ignore all reasoning behind said criticism? Other people are open to their favourite killers having their problems fixed, why can't you?
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@GrimReaperJr1232 said:
@SirCracken I think you misunderstand the nature of @Sonzaishinai's arguement.
Like it or not, Legion in their current state has a fanbase. This could be for a variety of reasons; Liking having to only outplay a survivor once to down them instead of twice, the usefulness of using killer instinct to track, or even just finding it enjoyable to chain as many stabs as possible.
Is Legion okay in their current state? Not really. They're not very fun to go against since a particularly evil Legion can just stab you repeatedly just for the sake of slowing the game to a crawl and holding M1 with 0 interaction (or skill checks) is mind-numbingly dull. At the same time, having a non-lethal power have a brutal 4-second stun and punished so heavily for mistakes for so little reward is just absurd.
Do I like your changes? Not really. It's a completely different killer, and while I'm sure that's something you put a lot of thought into, it's not something I would enjoy, personally.
Of course. Every killer has their specific fanbase. And I've stated multiple times that I see no fault in enjoying a killer for what they are.
But I must state again that liking how a killer is currently does not excuse the design problems that they have.
I'm glad we both agree that Legion in their current state isn't okay. And I must repeat myself again that the point of my post was never to spur the devs to radically change Legion like I had envisioned. I made this post for the sake of expressing an idea that I wanted to explore.
Completely fair. You don't have to like my changes at all.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1843735#Comment_1843735
A good killer design is a killer that's enjoyable to play and for a lot of people Legion is exactly that.
Pickrates are a very good estimate imo. If a killer is picked often it means one of two things. Either they are picked because you have a high chance to win with them or they are picked because they are being enjoyed.
Legion is not picked for their phenominal win ratio so they are picked often cause they are enjoyable. And if people are enjoying a killer a complete revamp of their power is the last thing you want to do.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1843739#Comment_1843739
Once everybody is injured downs can happen really really fast if you are good at the m1 game.
Sure maybe not against the 10000 combined hour swf deathsquad but you don't face that every match. Against your standert survivor Legion games can be very fast paced.
You only need to mindgame a survivor once. None of that hit them and watch them run miles away.
Also Blight and Nurse take time before you can get to the high speed gameplay. With Legion a basic understanding of mindgames is all you need.
For people like me who only play a couple of games a day Legion is perfect.
Again, the fact that more than one person enjoys playing Legion in their current state doesn't mean that they are objectively perfect and don't need to be changed. There are people that enjoy every killer from Nurse to Trapper. Does this mean that Trapper is fine and doesn't need any changes? No! Every killer in the game has their problems and they should be fixed at some point.
Pickrates are a terrible estimate for how enjoyable a or viable a killer is. Nurse is objectively the best killer in the game, and yet she has one of the lowest pick rates. By your logic she is in clear need of changes or a buff. But in reality buffing Nurse is perhaps one of the most redundant things that could be done to killers right now except maybe nerfing Hoarder.
Oh wait that's already been nerfed.Since this is just the same point as before I'll go into more depth on why it is wrong and bad for the game. Enjoyment is heavily subjective. But I don't think I need to explain this to you. But what you should understand is that how well a killer can perform and the actions they are capable of taking can be measured objectively and thus how they interact with other players. Well designed killers have gameplay that promotes lots of interaction because players are typically engaged the most when they are interacting with the game a lot. There are clearly people like you that enjoy killers that are non-interactive or minimally-interactive but you are the exception to the rule and shouldn't be pandered to just because you exist.
In the same way that there are people who enjoy playing Basement Bubba and people who enjoy playing Bubba traditionally, those who prefer the former encourage stale and un-interactive gameplay while the latter is the opposite and generally makes the game more interesting to play for everyone. Lest you forget that most survivors at best tolerate Legion or actively despise them because of how uninteresting they are to play against.
Unless the survivors have less than 2 braincells to rub together you're not going to get rapid downs by just M1'ing. You literally have no power and are at the mercy of the map's loops and how well survivors and exploit them.
Yes, killers that require a lot of split-second decision making and have potential to get downs quickly require some practise. Whereas Legion just requires a working mouse and keyboard to get hits. You've honestly made your own counter argument here.
If you're a casual player then I can see why you would like Legion in their current state. But to finish off my little counter-rant tell me this, why should you, someone who by their own omission plays the game casually, be pandered to have the game balanced around them when there are players who have put hundreds if not thousands of hours into the game and have a much better understanding of it than you? What makes your viewpoint any more valid than theirs?
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@BattleCast said:
Gonna have to agree with @Sonzaishinai here. Many people do like the fast paced playstyle Legion currently has. I also don't want to be abandoned by this game like pre-rework Freddy players were.
Fast paced? What about getting a free hit where the survivor has almost no counter play and suffering a 4 second stun is fast?
Blight is fast paced. Nurse is fast paced. Legion is not.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
Not going to lie as a Legion main, I would hate this. May come to a shock to you but quite a lot of people like the run around fast and stab playstyle.
Legion is a information killer who thanks to their short body can pull of mindgames most other killers can only dream of.
And while they could use some buffs and QoL treatments as a whole i like the gameplay of the Legion and I'm not alone.
Also would be way to much work to actually work in game.
Cool idea for another killer maybe but i would rather the Legion stayed like this and never get buffed again then for them to be completly changed and have nothing of what made me buy them in the first place.
Also bassicly in the middle of pick rates so your idea that the Legion is " the worst thing in videogame history" is just straight up wrong.
Calling people ignorant for defending Legion while there are red ranks that can consistantly 4k with them is beyond ironic.
You can like running around and stabbing people all you like. It doesn't make Legion well designed or interesting, no matter how many people share the same viewpoint. Your opinions don't become stronger if more people agree with you.
Legion gets some information on where survivors are after a stab and nothing more. There is nothing they can do that other killers can't do better with add-ons or perks, see Blight's compound add-on, Wraith's all-seeing add-on, Bubba's chassis add-on, Plague's Incense add-on, Nurse's Calling and infectious Fright and probably some more I'm missing.
What do you mean "buy them in the first place"? Legion was not put into the game as they were now. They were able to down survivors with their power and moved at 110% speed. Did you only get them after the re-work?
Killer pick rates are a poor argument to use for why a killer is fine. Using them implies that unless a killer has a low pick rate there's nothing wrong with them, which is obviously wrong. The quote about Legion being the worst thing in the history of video games was sarcastic. Hence the bold lettering and dramatic wording compared to the rest of the post.
People can 4K with every killer in the game at red ranks because the ranking system is terrible. Legion is actually a great example of this. You can, quite literally, just run around the map stabbing people without getting a single down and still rank up. The fact that people can get kills with Legion at all is not a sign that they're a good killer in any aspect and I am fully correct in calling people like you ignorant for saying otherwise.
Let me preface this by saying you're completely free to continue playing and enjoying Legion as they are. My problem is not with how you feel about the killer. But how you defend them with little to no understanding of how a good killer should be designed.
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@Mandy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1843473#Comment_1843473
The whole "buried" thing is completely false. Posts are moved because they are in the wrong section and don't belong in General Discussions.
And yes these posts are read, when they are in the correct section at least, more so than they would be if they were still in GD because posts get buried there very quickly due to the amount of posts.
I wasn't trying to imply that my post was deliberately being hidden by the mods if that's what you're saying. I was remarking that my post was simply not getting the same interaction as the others and thus getting "buried" underneath them all.
But what confuses me as to why my post was moved to feedback and suggestions when I specifically said "this isn't a recommendation for the developers".
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@Pulsar said:
I love all of this. This gives them so much personality and makes them interesting and fun to play against.
I'd love for the Devs to respond to this. I know they say that Legion is doing alright, but people still complain about how unfun he is and thisfixes him.
Thanks for commenting! Not going to lie, I'm a bit miffed that my post is getting buried since I think discussing Legion and what they could be very interesting.
I also hope that the devs see this but they probably won't. I didn't write this with the notion that any of it would be implemented into the game.
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@Bard said:
Hoarder
- Upon hooking a survivor with a held item, their item will be relocated to a random chest.
- If the chest was unopened, the item will replace the loot that would have spawned.
- If the chest was already open, the item will be placed in it and the chest will shut.
- If the chest was already open, but there was still an item resting in it, the prior item will be ejected to the floor in front of the chest, the hoarded item will be placed inside, and the chest will shut.
- The victim will see the aura of their item for 6 seconds after being unhooked.
If somebody is going to search a chest, they're going to do it in the first minute of the trial. As a result, Hoarder is useless later in the game unless combined with Franklin's, Spinning Top, or Begrimed Chains.
To make the perk self sufficient, it now has a way of removing items from survivor's hands built in.
- Once again reduces the rarity of items/add-ons found in chests, following this loot table
- 66% of items looted will be common.
- 33% of items looted will be uncommon
- 1% of items looted will be rare
- Higher rarities are impossible
- Plunderer's Instinct adjusts the loot table
- 25% of items looted will be common
- 50% of items looted will be uncommon
- 25% of items looted will be rare
- Higher rarities are impossible
If you're going to add more chests with a killer perk, that perk also needs to take care of the possibility that a survivor loots a game-winning item (A key, Strong Medkit, or a Styptic with Ace in the Hole)
Oppression
- Oppression now gives a visual indication of what generators start regression.
- Instead of giving a skill check, afflicted generators that have a survivor on them will simply explode and regress 5%.
It's a decent information tool at low levels of play where survivors can't land skill checks, but its strength massively hinges on the presence of thusly unskilled survivors.
With this, it's reliable across skill levels.
Coup de Grace
- Increased from 40/50/60% to 80/90/100%
The perk isn't fundamentally bad, but it didn't need the nerf.
All of these are good changes. The perks in of themselves, with the exception of Hoarder, are still gimmicky but no longer completely awful.
Which is why none of these changes are going to implemented. Sadly.
- Upon hooking a survivor with a held item, their item will be relocated to a random chest.
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@Yords said:
Please read first.
I have made a post about this before, but I feel that it is more relevant especially right now with moris being nerfed and I feel that this should definitely be implemented as it is not crazy big of a change.
The current yellow mori: Allows you to kill a survivor if they are the last one remaining in the trial regardless if they have been hooked or not.
This is not used often and most of the time, you probably aren't even going to get to use it if you do run it.
The could-be base kit mori: Allows you to kill the last remaining survivor in the trial only if all other survivors have been sacrificed. Grants you as many points as you would have gotten if they were hooked and sacrificed.
It makes sense with the lore of the game "You worked well, the last one is yours.", gives moris more of a use just in general gameplay, is not OP, and gives you the rest of the points you would have gotten sacrificing them.
What are your thoughts? Do you agree with me, or do you think something else could work? Just keep it professional.
This is a simple change that would make the continuously dwindling lore of the game a tiny bit more relevant again and make matches some a tiny bit quicker.
I see no reason not to add it.
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Oh. So it's only upside of being able to maybe counter keys getting found wasn't even intended.
RIP indeed.
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@Withered8 said:
So you want to buff a killer who already exels and promotes camping and slugging?
These buffs sound like the most killer sided changes i've ever seen in a long time.
How on earth are you meant to counter Victor if you can't kick him and he can be recalled at any time?
"Killer sided changes", what? Did you completely miss the part when I suggest nerfing Victor if he's used to camp a hook?
You're confusing punishing the killer for doing well with countering their mistakes. You should never be able to kick Victor unless he's not being controlled or he misses a pounce. Kicking Victor after he lands a pounce is the same as stunning Huntress after she lands a hatchet. It's a nonsense design choice and needs to be removed.
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@MythMage said:
Couldn't have said it better myself
Yay
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@HittingOnHook said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1796124#Comment_1796124
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1796117#Comment_1796117
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1796102#Comment_1796102
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1796112#Comment_1796112
Expected ironic jokes but I do not blame you since were educated by the mass media and did not investigate anything by yourselves
I guess my prediction of 1-5% of awaken people was too high lmao
I wasn't educated by the media. I've had a strong distain for it ever since I was aware of the concept. You really shouldn't assume that everyone who finds the very obvious insanity of your claims palpable to just be brainwashed. In fact, I'll give you a chance to actually explain yourself now.
How exactly is the imagery in DeadbyDaylight intentionally satanic and what do the powers that be stand to gain from putting them in the game to begin with?
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@Unseen_Force said:
I keep my bible next to me while I play for protection
New item:
The holy book
- Slightly/considerable/tremendously decreases chance for satanic conversion while equipped depending on rarity
- You can preach sermons while hooked
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@Nun_So_Vile said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1796102#Comment_1796102
Or got into the entity's secret stash
"Before this post": Ay yo this serum ain't nothin
"5 minutes later": This post
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Is that picture supposed to prove your point? How does Huntress wearing a goat skull prove anything?
Plague exists and is obviously of Babylonian origin. Does this mean that the devs are pushing a Babylonian agenda and want to convert their playerbase?
The entire point of this game is to have unstable and murderous people with various abilities, (you know, variety), and be able to play against and as them. You're going to need actual evidence to convince anyone otherwise.
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This game is many things. A vessel for promoting Satanism is not one of them.
I'm guessing this is a troll post.
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@chieften333 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1795720#Comment_1795720
Wait, they changed soul chemical? I thought they just added on to it.
Edit: I looked it up on the wiki and just... why? It was an ok addon before, not overpowered, not underpowered. The new one seems like it would be something a brown addon would do.
You can thank Ethan from the design team for that one.