SewerSwans
SewerSwans
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- SewerSwans
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@YaiPa said:
"Survivors hiding doesn't work against good killers, and most killers hate playing against hiding survivors",
false. If survivors hide, the entire time, unless it's Doctor, the killer won't find them easily, because if there are no place to start the hunt, you're screwed.
also, even with whispers, at red ranks, there are so many occasions while as killer you know due to whispers that a survivor is near, but since you can't lose time, you have to search somewhere else.
The 'place to start the hunt' is a gen that's been touched. If they don't start a gen, you have unlimited time to search, so it doesn't win them the match and tends to lose them it. If a few survivors hide well, they allow you to focus your aggression on a smaller number of targets & kill someone off. If all play stealthy, the amount that their movements & playstyle are constrained by your TR works against them, there's insufficient gen pressure and they generally all die.
Hiding will win the battle but lose the war; that's what I mean by saying it doesn't work.
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Survivors hiding doesn't work against good killers, and most killers hate playing against hiding survivors. If you don't want to play the game for what it is, you will not enjoy it, and if you're being looped by one player the entire game, you are making dozens upon dozens of mistakes. Number one being chasing someone who continually outplays you for that long.
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@Tactless_Ninja said:
It's Meddle. Like to interfere in a concern that is not your own?
It's Mental. Like you're a mad lad running a Z tier perk?
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Sprint Burst all day. Love protection hits; that's exactly why I wanna be able to nyoom in-between killer and victim from miles away at the key moment, or 99 my SB, run in for the protection hit, get my on-hit speed boost, and then if the killer goes for me, walk a second and SB away to waste huge amounts of time. SB enables some really fun plays.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1381592#Comment_1381592
Except that tunneling isn’t always the optimal thing to do. You can’t split pressure if you ain’t chasing anybody else.
Many times killers who go out of their way (break chases, throw the game) just to tunnel off the hook is because they are targeting one survivor for whatever the reason may be.
You don’t win if you tunnel in every situation, and because of that DS at that point is fair game.
This is why DS isn’t an “anti-tunnel” perk because if it was it would force the killer to stop tunneling, which it doesn’t.
Yes, we both have a decent understanding of the game and are aware of pressure. However, while applying split pressure, of course a good killer playing sweaty always has an eye on killing off a player as quickly as possible, because that's their win condition vs a good team. That's all I mean.
If anti-x perks need to force rather than incentivize, Sloppy Butcher isn't an anti heal perk, Iron Maiden isn't an anti locker perk, nothing is an anti anything perk. I will say that DS is not per se an antitunneling perk, it's a "force you to tunnel and then punish you for it" perk.
If I two-hook a 4 DS team without eating DS, I'm dealing with up to 8 minutes of survivors with active DS repairing vital gens in my face while injured, unhooking injured and jumping in lockers. This is simply not viable. But if I'm rotating back to my tunnel victim once DS expires, that can work. And once I've eaten the DS, I have strong incentive to get value out of that action by tunneling that player to death at the first good opportunity. Tunneling someone out relieves a great deal of the pressure put on me by multiple DS users able to make suicidal plays with low risk.
If your concern is sour or ignorant killers tunnelling players non-strategically, rewarding killers more for diverse hooks would result in those players getting destroyed.
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@TwinnedHawks8772 said:
Legion can be very strong and borderline op with the right perks, all you need is Sloppy Butcher and Bloodhound and you're B tier if played right. Combined with cooldown addons and perks like Monitor or you can be stronger than a highskill Huntress or Tombstone Myers.
Survivors strong enough to make tier lists relevant don't bother healing vs most killers, let alone vs legion, and rarely hide.
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Hag is among the best-designed killers in the game, and is very fun to play against when you understand her. Constant interaction happens between her & you.
A killer's inherent weaknesses are only exposed when a super skilled player puts them against super skilled survivors, therefore most tier list opinions are pointless because few people study or experience enough matches like that to give an informed opinion on one killer on one map, let alone all of them on all maps. Such matches are extremely uncommon, since most rank 1 players are, well, far from optimal.
It is in fact extremely political how every survivor in this game conforms to cis-het norms of dress & appearance, to the point of no tall girls or short guys. It is also very political how killers have more or less a monopoly on disfigurement and insanity.
Kate Denson is bland.
The Nurse's weapon being a sedative syringe would be more unique and thematically coherent. Did they amputate mental illnesses with that bonesaw?
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@Sadsnacks said:
I'd put clown as a top tier killer
JUSTIFY YOURSELF IMMEDIATELY.
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@Jasuo said:
I think the small rework they did to DS was a step in the right direction, however I think the power it provides is still frustrating in specific scenarios. I'll use a recent game as an example for this.
I just had a game where survivors were very efficiently completing gens to the point I had to pick my targets and chases very carefully. I decided my best strat would be to heavily punish unhooks when they went for them, as trying to overly protect my gens would cost me time I couldn't afford to lose. I did not tunnel, in fact I went out of my way to always go for the unhooker even though it would be easier to down and hook the person who just got saved. I did this for a majority of the game while also applying pressure to gens, but as fate would have it the gens get done and everybody is still alive. I protected the exit gates fairly well, gave everybody plenty of chase time, and injured them all before the gates inevitably got opened. It was looking real bad for me so I decided to just down the survivor most recently saved from a hook and leave the game with a 1k, at least it's something. You can see where this is going.
I chase everybody else out of the gates, go to pick up the last survivor, I get DS'd. Everybody gets out scott free, and the "ggwps" go out in chat as I rank down from something that was out of my control, even though I played "fairly" and relatively well.
Bottom line is, I understand this is supposed to be an anti tunnel perk, but the thing is it always finds a way to ######### you over even if you're not tunneling. I think they should take another look at it and try and figure something out, because it's NOT fun to deal with.
TL;DR: Had a game where I went out of my way to not tunnel, downed a recently hooked survivor as the 3 others escaped and was hit with a DS, resulting in a 0k instead of a 1k. Absolutely great "anti tunnel" perk.
Devs have stated DS is an "anti momentum perk", antitunnel is idealogical spin by the community to defend it.
Of course, even BHVR's statement is kind of busted, because killers live and die on momentum; they start the game on the back foot with 4 survivors splitting on different gens, and tend to swiftly lose if they get stalled for any length of time.
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If the last person or two left has a golden glow, I'll let 'em go. If an Adam or Jane is left with no glow, I'll let them crown hunt. That's your lot, as far as mercy goes. Also Blendettes get nothing but murdered.
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Fantastic analysis. If you want to stop tunneling, make it not optimal to do! My DbD balancing dream might be a strong trial warmup mechanic so I could actually exert pressure before gens gain substantial progress. On top of this, a dramatic speed-up to gen repair speeds, but the first time you hook a survivor it permenantly and dramatically damages their ability to repair. So there's an actual tactical decision between 'hook diversely to slow gens' vs 'rush a kill'. Currently, rush a kill is the ideal choice.
Alternatively, recently hooked survivors could suffer slower repair speeds and possibly be given another objective, meaning you counter gen pressure more by not tunneling someone out.
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Honestly, the only BM killer really needs is the ole' nod and headshake. They cost no time, you can do them in motion, and they always work.
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@Peanits said:
You've always had the power to deal with teabagging. You are the killer. You move faster than them, you can hit them, and you even have a power to help you do so. If anything, it was in favour of killers for years since the guy on the hook can't just hit the killer to make it stop.
I don't agree with most of what's in this thread, including the OP. But it's rich to say this to lower tier killers well known to be chew toys for a skilled SWF, and official dev statements have said those killers are in a fine place because they have an acceptable killrate vs average rank 1 SWFs.
Additionally, survivors BM when chasing them is a terrible idea in terms of time management. The opening of the exit gates in particular is a crescendo of stress and anxiety, because survivors seize their position of complete physical & emotional safety to be rude, routinely waiting 2 minutes at the gates just in the hope of doing it.
That constant sense of gloating, mocking hostility for letting anyone get out is corrosive to any sense of fair play or mercy. If 2K was my average, I would quit the game. It strongly discourages me from getting new killers and playing anything but high tier killers. It's the number one reason I don't play this game much more than I do; it does not feel good to constantly have to guard my fun from other people's contempt, and constantly monitor my vulnerability vs patience.
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@SirCracken said:
With Legion, I've had a idea that is probably never going to be implemented because it would take too much development time, but I think it would fix them and give them an actual killer identity.
- Legion is back to 110%
- They can summon another Legion member for X amount of time and give them basic commands. Such as chasing a survivor, or patrolling a gen
- Survivors now take a total of 3 hits to down
Don't think 3 hits to down as well as 110 is necessary, the 110 killers' powers are extremely strong, like Spirit phasewalk. Can you tell your summoned Legion to chase someone and then you chase them too, though, ensuring an easy down?
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@timbologna said:
why are they called drag queens then...
That's a complicated question relating to wide swathes of history and culture that you are almost certainly unwilling to research at all. Despite that you are gonna hang out here, talking about things you have no knowledge of, because when society says 'gender deviance is bad', you say 'yessir, I'll get to misunderstanding it right away, sir!'.
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Yes, like Ace's attribute of... Being a military pilot.
Also, people are multifaceted and try on things like crossdressing sometimes.
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My personal Wraith changes would be cloak movement speed add-ons are now default. Also, after hitting an M1, Wraith can press the active ability button to instantly cloak after his recovery. This renders him completely invisible, even when moving, for the next 10 seconds or so. When he begins to decloak, he becomes visible as normal. I feel like this amplifies his hit and run nature while introducing some paranoia for survivors to his gameplay. Might also make directionless bell default for his next decloak after doing this.
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@SewerSwans said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1377921#Comment_1377921
Not at all, don't worry ^^ Drag is like, making a performance out of extreme and artistic outfits and playing with gender roles. A drag queen is usually a man who takes on the persona of a woman and dresses the part, although the drag scene has had crossover w/ transgender people and such. Like, there are transgender drag queens who are not really men, even when they're out of drag.
This usually involves very creative fashion, unique make-up, etc. Drag queens come up with a lot of different looks.
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@OldHunterLight said:
Not to be that guy but I'm a little behind and english is not my first language but what is a drag queen?
Not at all, don't worry ^^ Drag is like, making a performance out of extreme and artistic outfits and playing with gender roles. A drag queen is usually a man who takes on the persona of a woman and dresses the part, although the drag scene has had crossover w/ transgender people and such. Like, there are transgender drag queens who are not really men, even when they're out of drag.
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@Khallaria said:
I'm just going to make a suggestion that would combine the requests for a drag queen cosmetic and a cosmetic i've been wanting them to license for years. Now is the time. We need bhvr to get license for the 'Pretty Lady' cosmetic for leatherface.
A cosmetic that screams 'AAAAGHHH, a MAN looking SUPERFICIALLY WOMANLY! HORRIFYING! DEVIANT!' does not exactly scratch the itch that drives me to request a drag queen survivor. In fact, that would kind of be the opposite of what I want.
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Not gonna lie, a drag queen survivor is one of the few forms of #####representation####### that I would care about, and the cosmetic potential is through the roof.
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Ghostface has no mobility to protect Devour. If it isn't by a very compelling 3 gen, you're going to have to give it up or give up a lot of chases. This is an alright build for killing solos, but a coordinated, skilled SWF applying coordinated pressure to both Devour and the gens? Can't see it.
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The nature of the game makes defining midmatch toxicity almost impossible.
A man is unhooked. He's downed within 3 seconds and uses his DS. 40 seconds later he is downed and hooked again. Toxic tunneling? No, he jumped in a locker in my face with his unhooker ghosting, so I ate his DS and applied Nemesis. Nemesis'd, he chose to work a vital gen with bad pallets and worse sightline, and unsurprisingly this was a gen I patrolled and he got caught with his pants down.
Show me a code of conduct that can avoid false positives like that, and I'll be amazed.
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A survivor became really mad at me for downing them after they spent their entire Borrowed Time rubbing up against me like an affectionate cat.
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Doing this is fairly pointless, given the many killers who use these strategies, and will likely get you moderated.
Separate from that, if a freshly unhooked player doesn't bother healing & works on a vital gen, what do you expect me to do? Let them use chivalry as invincibility, walk all over me and win, because otherwise that's tunneling? I'm assuming you're using the broadest sense of these terms given how you seem to feel.
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@xCarrie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1374747#Comment_1374747
I really want a cut throat gesture for killer even though it would like silly on certain killers lol. That or to be able to do the “clean weapon” animation whenever you want.
Voluntary bladewipe would be very cool. Demogorgon just screaming all the time.
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@mike4156 said:
entity progress should slow significantly if the killer is too close (whatever BEhavior would deem that as)
Tried, exploited by SWFs, failed. As long as survivors can hide near the hook, bomb the hook or mess it up in any other way, you can't punish the killer for their bad teamwork.
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Fully approved. Would also add this for being slugged for long lengths of time. Game needs to smooth out some of the rougher edges and also reduce the grind; two crows, one pebble.
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I'm aware this isn't the point of the thread, but doing a quick 180 before picking up will cover most flashlight saves. Looking at the wall or at an open dead zone where nobody can hide is ideal. Often you can also just stand on the downed person, listen closely for sprinting steps and get into a new chase immediately. Better luck with MM in future.
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@OniWantsYourMacaroni said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1373988#Comment_1373988
Thing is,there is no auto aim in this game only aim dressing.The main difference between both is basically auto aim can give you hits you shouldn't get while aim dressing is able to take hits from you that should have not.
That's an important distinction; thank you.
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Barely ever see toxic killers, though I don't call strategic tunneling, slugging etc toxic.
I've virtually never been BM'd at by a killer, whereas even in situations like "I didn't slug for the 4K and your escape is solely because of this and map RNG", about 2/4 survivors will BM me when their escape is assured. The few toxic killers I encounter who slug me to bleed out or facecamp the first down are usually incredibly bitter people out solely to grief others, who are playing killer specifically because of ways to grief.
Whereas the SWFs who key out on death hook and send me "GG EZ" are survivor mains playing the game normally, with petty sadism being part of the fun for them.
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@Lx_malice said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1373988#Comment_1373988
Yea that makes sense. So I guess there's no sure way to counter it then?
The main counter I'm aware of is to be unpredictable with your lunge timing, or walk up behind them and do a lungeless attack, which counters all jukes. What Nurse is supposed to do, I'm not sure at all. I think it might require a particular spacing, but I'm not really much of a survivor player.
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They're exploiting autoaim and how the game is supposed to automatically cut a lunge short when you'll hit. This motion makes the game think you'll hit and cut your lunge in such a way that you don't.
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I'm guessing somebody mentioned Monto and then transphobic arguments were rolled out in his defense. From here, somebody likely tried to use the argument that intersex people disprove many of the concepts of binary sex that are used against trans people. Thus bringing the conversation to intersex people. However, people who don't care to understand trans people typically do not care to understand intersex people either.
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If I'm crossplaying with a PC player, do they get to talk in postgame chat but I don't?
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@Sonzaishinai said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1370319#Comment_1370319
People who place her at s tier all suffer from pre nerf nurse ptsd
They always see the perfect form of nurse that never misses a blink, reads all mindgames and always knows where you are.
Tierlist are meant for high level of play okay, but not if that level of play can't be reached.
A deathslinger that never misses his shots, knows all the trickshots to counter loops will also end chases insanly fast and is faster and has a lower terror radius. So why isn't he S tier then?
Deathslinger moves up relatively slowly, so you can see him coming while on many gens and retreat early. Nurse's blink mobility is delivered in shocking bursts that often leave you no time to take distance on her. Deathslinger can wound you over a dropped pallet by shooting and breaking the chain, but he can't down you over a dropped pallet, and he must either land a regular M1 as a 110 percent killer then shoot, or shoot for his first hit and suffer speed boost + reload time, a horrendous loss of distance. Or shoot then catch up to the speed boost as a 110 M1 killer.
For this reason he does not end chases like a Nurse. He also doesn't slug with Infectious like a Nurse, IMO, which generates explosive pressure.
Also, Nurse's blink mobility allows her to take shortcuts across the map, giving her better map pressure. Deathslinger walks in the asylum door, up the stairs, curves around to find an exit. Nurse goes straight through the middle.
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Tier lists originated as explicitly based on top-level play and competition. In that context, Nurse is S. If you want to make a 'newbie killer tier list', sure, I'll give you low tier Nurse. Put Bubba at the top because he's a facecamp god, too.
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It's not difficult for a streamer to put on a nice act while live. Every celebrity does it. You should've seen DreadedCone back in the day; 3 years and his act never cracked that I saw. If you want a reliable indicator of how nice a guy is, look at how he treats people nobody respects.
A guy who's nice to you and uses slurs for disabled people as an insult? He's a nice guy when it's profitable and convenient. You're potentially profitable and already convenient.
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I assume if I asked you to explain the rationale here, it would involve darts, a board and possibly large quantities of vodka.
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Cleansing a dull for an extra Unbreakable would be absurdly powerful even without its existing benefit. I would seriously quit the game at that point. Just ONE unbreakable self-pickup is so desirable that it's a meta perk often run by all 4 members of a SWF, because the 'stay injured, ignore healing, do gens at all costs' strategy, at a high level, forces killers to slug often to get more pressure.
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@MrPenguin said:
Thanks for the hard work you put into this, really appreciate it!
"Why does Trail of Torment reveal the generator’s aura? (from @Orion)
If this aura weren’t present, the survivors wouldn’t know that anything was happening."
Isn't that the point of a stealth perk? Ok then, guess that's going in the bucket.
It's similar to how when you use Insidious, a flashing neon sign unfolds out your head and zooms around in the sky.
Wait...
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@ZoneDymo said:
As a wise woman once said: "there is a difference between being immersed and being stealthy and lots of players dont understand the difference"
Stealth is not being seen, avoiding the killer BUT still doing the objectives, getting through the gens, opening the doors and escaping.
Immersed is just being scared, not doing anything but hiding, crouching around the map, wasting everyone's time.
A stealthy player who avoids the killer consistently ends up hoarding hook lives and allowing the killer to concentrate their aggression on a smaller number of people, thus killing someone off faster. Stealth is inherently situational. Stealth when you're in a dead zone or on low hook lives is great. But most stealthy players do not understand that it cannot be applied all the time or even, IMO, most of the time.
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What's the reasoning for placing Plague below Ghostface, and Clown so high, if I can ask? Also, how do you feel about Hag and OoO, flashlights, etc?
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@TheMajor said:
Trapper should move up 1 tier since his power is, in essence one to turn loops, a survivors strongest tool, into a crippling detriment.
Death slinger and wraith should switch. Death slinger has such a terribly small terror radius considering what his power is that he's disproportionately stronger than he should be. Wraith on the other hand requires a good killer player AND addons to perform well.
Mikey should be up a tier for sheer versatility. There are a bunch of different ways to play mikey because of all his different addons. Not to mention he's the only killer that can mori healthy survivors.
And finally Hag and Freddy should switch. If you're talking map pressure, Hag has Freddy beat. While Freddy can only teleport to unfinished gens periodically, Hag can teleport to any of her tripped traps in range with no cooldown. In chase, Hag can make loops useless by placing a trap whereas Freddy can only temporarily slow a survivor down. I think that his strongest ability in chase is the dream pallets but those require an addons and for the survivor to be in the dream state.
Tier lists are usually based on the highest level of play. Trapper is not able to do this consistently vs survivors who understand him, call out his traps, disarm his traps, etc.
Hag is destroyed by flashlights and OoO, and weak to SWF, and when she traps a loop, you run to a new one and take distance. When Freddy traps a loop, he does not slow down in any way. This is why it's uncounterable. Hag's map pressure is based off setup and is dependent on the survivors. Freddy's is at-will and cannot be removed.
Mike's unique add-ons are useless gimmicks vs strong survivors. Strong survivors who understand how key it is to break LoS, how to do it, and how to exploit T1 slowness to the max, are gonna take 2 gens off you even with Corrupt just to get out of T1 and be an M1 killer. Then they'll take more for your first T3. They look around constantly & understand sightlines.
If you're lucky, you'll get your infinite T3 or your Tombstone or whatever by the time 5 gens are done.
Freddy's dream pallets are absolutely not strong. A SWF will tell the others which pallets are thrown, and occasional hits from fake pallets are straight-up inferior to blood pools making Freddy borderline unloopable and able to just strip the map of pallets rapidly, stack up injuries, etc. No top players are gonna tell you his fake pallets are strong.
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Watch some Fungoose play a weak killer like Bubba; he will never chase only one survivor for an extended period. You are describing making an enormous mistake, and losing for it.
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@Reinami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1364553#Comment_1364553
I disagree with them being predatory.
Loot boxes are predatory. Battle passes are actually pretty fair, especially DBDs. Look at all of the cosmetics we get. Imagine how much we'd have to pay to buy individual ones we want, or even worse if they were in loot boxes.
On top of that, it rewards you for playing the game. If they were like DotA's battle passes where you can only get to level 100ish for "free" and they continue to give rewards up into the thousands i'd agree. But you can max out a DBD battlepass just by playing the game, you don't have to buy extra levels. Even better, is that the battle pass gives you more points. I only paid for the first one, and the first one paid for my second one, and my second one paid for the 3rd one, and its going to be the same with the 4th one.
Battle passes, when done well (like DBD and valorant) are the most fair least predatory system of all, because i am rewarded for playing the game and i end up with more content than otherwise for less money. They also give you a goal to achieve which keeps you playing the game. Granted it's Skinner Box type stuff, but i'd argue video games in general are a Skinner Box
The prices for cosmetics are set by the devs, and the point of allowing cash or a lengthy grind is to make the grind juuuust miserable enough to incentivize payment. This is basic f2p game design. The grind is not optimized for your pleasure; it is optimized to extract money 'this guy removed a burden he placed on me, for a price! what a champ!' is not something I can agree with.
'rewards you for playing the game' seems to be working out great for OP. The reward of playing a game is the fun of the game. That's what games are for. They don't exist to perpetuate themselves. When the fun of a game doesn't keep you playing, that's because you want to do something else! The point of these systems is to cement playing the game in your daily routine and terminate thoughts of if playing the game is the most fulfilling use of your time. With a chaser of anxiety about losing your money, losing out.
The 'most fair system' is nothing of this kind. The existence of more predatory systems does not mean this one's clean. To this you can respond 'well, they need to make money'. I would agree. But an imperative to do something doesn't render it harmless, as we see in this thread.
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This is the purpose of an obligatory grind where you can get your money back. Sunk cost fallacy, anxiety, making the game into work. You just feel it slightly more than most, and you're honest with yourself about it; feel no shame about that. This stuff is predatory.
First of all, I would suggest a decently long break, and perhaps a new obsession, as another obsessive person. The money you spent on the Rift is not worth this. Very little is. What you're feeling is probably a helluva lot sorer for all this playing, and needs rest to heal at all. Easy for me to say, I know. But I hope some part of it validates or helps you.
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Press start or the Xbox equivalent and you should be able to do it from that menu. Works for me on PS4.
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@yandere777 said:
How strong is it really? Its like a 5-10 second time save
It bypasses DS, is the thing. So you can hook someone to struggle, then as soon as they're unhooked, pursue and mori them out.
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@USELESS said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1354645#Comment_1354645
As I know you need at least to point to the trap, not to the wall
Oh, you mean with a flashlight. I didn't know about this; how close was your trap to the wall? There was no gap or window?