Seiko300
Seiko300
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@DisappointedUser said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1194173#Comment_1194173
If only there was some incredibly easy way to ensure NOED never activates.. but alas that would require you all not to rush the gens as fast as possible and ignore totems only to complain about “Ma NOED..”
Noed is fine and works against crappy survivors as well. You holding m1 the entire game doesn’t make you a good survivor.
and i do not use noed. I play perkless killer.
I already addressed your response to my post, within my post but I'll quote myself again:
"survivors have no idea whether or not a killer is running NOED until someone has been hit at the very end, so they have no idea whether or not they should be seeking out the destruction of every totem on the map. If they aren't running noed you are very clearly wasting precious time you could be doing repairing generators, saving teammates, healing teammates, etc. Wasting that much time seeking out every totem which could be really well hidden could very well cost you the match."
As well, what makes you think I'm a biased survivor main that thinks holding m1 is skillful? Did you miss the part where I expressed my absolute and utter distaste and disdain for DS? Or are you selectively reading the parts of my post that you want to read
Both the perks are unbalanced, both need to go. It's a simple fact that both ruin the fun of many players involved and regardless of anyone's bias I think it's pretty fair if both Survivors and Killers get hit with reworks on these controversial perks.
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@arslaN said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1194098#Comment_1194098
When the method of countering said man is just "drop the pallet early" or "guess the right pallet" it becomes insanely boring/unsatisfying to play against him.
Even though that same method is required for possibly half a dozen or more other killers?
You need drop the pallet early against a Huntress or take a hatchet to the face, you need to drop the pallet early against a Deathslinger otherwise take a harpoon to the chest, you should probably drop a pallet early on a Hillbilly or Leatherface even though you're at full unless you want to be chainsawed down into dying state, the legion that's running toward you in feral frenzy might make you more inclined to drop the pallet on his face rather than run the loop so he's forced out of his power and you're not injured and put in the deep wound state at the same time as three of your teammates, you're probably going to want to drop the pallet early on Doctor, if you wait too long you get shocked and stunned and he gets a free hit off you, if you try to run the loop on a Hag too long over dropping a pallet early she's gonna quickly drop a trap on one side of it and stay on the other making the entire loop unsafe and sticking a clawed hand up your butt, if you don't want the Demogorgon to shred your entire back you better drop the pallet early too.
Ah but as soon as Freddy drops a snare "It BeCoMeS InSaNeLy BoRiNg/UnSaTiSfYiNg tO PlAy AgAiNsT HiM."
Yeah right. *Deathslinger spits*
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Soon. Hopefully.
@Rey_512 said:
It has already been reworked. Next.
It has already been reworked, and then immediately after survivors figured out how to maximize its output and abuse the perk to its fullest extent, hence the need for another rework, again.
One that puts it in its place, but still achieves its original purpose of being an anti-tunneling perk (and NOTHING more) for good.
Allow me to explain:
DS - Problems
A survivor running DS is not going to heal themselves because the DS practically counts as a health state on its own. It's a nice thought, but it's unrealistic to think anybody is going to heal while they've got what is basically invincibility. They're gonna play as aggressive as humanly possible going for unsafe unhooks, finishing generators in the killers face, doing hex totems in the killers face, etc.
This is the real problem with DS. That it enables survivors to play extremely aggressively for a long duration of time and they absolutely cannot get punished for it. As Otzdarva put it: "Decisive Strike allows survivors to be bold, make bad mistakes and completely get away with it"
DS - Solutions
It should be deactivated under numerous circumstances:
First and foremost it should be deactivated upon entering a locker, everybody knows this stupid trick, it's annoying to deal with, and provides a survivor 100% protection since they won't even be in the dying state. A key point to remember about Dead By Daylight is that a survivor should never feel safe under any circumstances, they should always be on edge and in some kind of tension, if not something is very clearly wrong with the power role of the killer. The ability to jump in a locker and force a killer to eat the DS absolutely and unbearably spits in the face of this idea, allowing a survivor to feel completely safe within the confines of a red box.
DS is also meant to be an anti tunneling perk, so it should be deactivated after that purpose is accomplished. NOT for an extra-whatever-is-left-on-the-timer. Similarly to OoO, if a survivor is outside of a range of 32 or 40 meters of a killer, it should automatically deactivate. If you are that far away, you are clearly not being tunneled and there is no reason for you to have the perk still active.
It should also deactivate if you begin repairing a generator, DS is a self preservation perk, it is meant to keep you alive immediately after the unhook. So if you feel safe enough to repair a generator while still injured, there is no reason for you to have the perk still active. This way baiting a killer into accidentally grabbing a survivor off a generator is no longer viable again, taking away that misplaced sense of security that survivors should never feel.
This also introduces an interesting dynamic, if there is one generator left, it's at 80% and the killer is chasing somebody but close enough that you can hear a heartbeat, do you try to repair the generator? If you do you lose your temporary basically-invincibility but you could repair the generator (popping adrenaline probably) if you don't you might be able to keep your DS maybe even use it and find the hatch or something. This forces survivors into weighing the risks vs. the reward and is a far more interesting gameplay and a tense situation than "Hehe DS will protect me, all gens done time to pop 4 adrenalines now look who's the 4head".
Concluding
These are absolutely necessary changes, those who say no are the ones who are keen on continuing to abuse an unbalanced perk.
However, it's important to note that none of this changes the primary and original goal of the perk who seek to gain that benefit: The core integrity of a perk that keeps you from being tunneled immediately off the hook for a certain period of time is preserved, giving you the opportunity to escape the killer, heal yourself up, and stay alive.
This is what the perk should be used for, and absolutely nothing more.
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It was to streamline the character. The devs awhile back were making a bunch of changes that basically put different perks & aspects of the game under the same umbrellas so as to not have all these wacky out of left field abilities that operated individually, making them more difficult to learn.
Likewise if you think way back (if you were around) Borrowed Time used to put survivors in a weird undefined limbo state - not quite injured but not quite groaning on the ground unable to get up in the dying state. It used to make your screen black and white which was super cool and I kinda miss honestly, but then they changed it so that it made more sense BT would allow you to tank hits but you would be put under the Deep Wounds status effect. This was done around the time that the Darkness Among Us Chapter was released which saw the introduction of the Legion whose primary ability outside of vaulting pallets and windows (the latter at an increased rate of speed) was to stab multiple survivors very quickly putting them in the deep wounds status effect. That way both of these abilities would operate the same way and new players could make that connection and distinction more quickly and easily
TL;DR It was done for simplicity's sake. Having every stealth killer operate the same way under the Undetectable Status effect is far more simple than one having ultra stealth and the others having something slightly different. Additionally, if everything operates the same it becomes easier to balance down the line or fix bugs that affect the one thing rather than bugs that affect five different things because nothing is the same.
And to be fair Spine Chill is the only counter to the Undetectable Status effect because it itself trumps all stealth abilities, the undetectable status effect itself however, now prevents all killers who are undetectable from having their aura read which was a HUGE problem and counter to Stealth killers as a whole, it became massively popular to run Object of Obsession after Ghostface released because he could actually be kicked out of his power, and this negatively affected the other stealth killers as a whole. Including Myers when he was in EW2 or EW3
Besides, it doesn't matter all that much anyway since nobody spends most of their time in EW1, unless they're running some kind of niche stealth build (but to me personally, the reduced lunge [and movement speed] is absolutely crippling). It's really not all that bad, nor is it the "huge nerf" you're describing, he's pretty fine as he is and for the most part is one of your average very balanced killers.
There are other killers that need buffs WAY more desperately than Myers cough Clown cough
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@SaltedSnow said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1194173#Comment_1194173
I've always felt the best change to noed would be to make it only apply to those who are on death hook. It fits with the name, and rewards killers for spreading their hooks out among the survivors, which in turn gives the survivors a better game as they're not being tunneled.
This is also not a bad idea. It falls in line with the ideology I set up about how the perk should operate:
"it shouldn't be a crutch for bad killers to snag kills at the very end, it should be a perk that rewards good killers who are in real tight and close matches the smidge of extra pressure that they would need to win a match after they've already performed really well. ... and secure kills at the very end that would otherwise have been lost."
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As a Ghostface main, you've put me in a particular pickle here since the two killers are on opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of their abilities, mechanics, and how they generally operate.
Ghostface is easily by far the best stealth killer in the game having a stealth ability that neither denies LOS or movement speed (The Pig) or sacrifices immediate aggressive potential (The Wraith) as well as provides a full reduction in TR and extra utility to be even more stealthy via crouching (unlike Myers). If you've seen any gameplay from Tru3ta1ent or Otzdarva you know that this alone is extremely powerful, as you can bounce between survivors and chases, surprise one, catch another out in the open, mindgame a third in the middle of a chase by activating night shroud to hide your red stain, etc. so on and so forth. These are the reasons why I main Ghostface and I love playing as the killer, the ability to expose survivors quickly (whether by surprise or in the middle of a chase) which I haven't even mentioned thus far, is only the cherry on top that allows Ghostface to be even more aggressive and powerful.
On the other hand, The Hag provides some of the most intense map pressure out of any killer at base without a single perk. Unlike other high mobility killers like Freddy, Demogorgon, or even Hillbilly, which might need the help of BBQ and Chili, Surveillance, Discordance etc. To point them in the right direction and let them know where to go next. Her traps are very difficult to spot making them difficult to avoid or destroy (with a flashlight) forcing survivors to rely on anticipation, game sense and knowledge of where she might place her traps (typically in critical areas such as next to a generator or hooked survivor) but this might not be enough especially against very, very good Hags which are often far more unpredictable in their trap placement. Traps can be placed down quickly and on the fly to counter loops, especially long ones around central buildings that might be abused by survivors seeking to run those for as long as humanly possible.
Lol I've got no idea. My experience watching and playing + bias wants me to say Ghostface but I know the Hag is a serious contender and I've seen some absolutely nuts gameplay from really good ones.
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@Cheers said:
I like your change to decisive, but I think it should include if a survivor enters a locker. A killer shouldn't be forced to eat the ds.
For Noed, my concept has always been its activated for 45 seconds, and each hook you get during the game increases this time by 15 seconds. You play well, you get an extra boost at the end.
I like these changes FAR more than I like op's ideas. (Especially the idea that both are "fairly" balanced, in your dreams bud, both of these perks are an absolute pain to go against, hence the controversy.)
DS - Problems
A survivor running DS is not going to heal themselves because the DS practically counts as a health state on its own. It's a nice thought, but it's unrealistic to think anybody is going to heal while they've got what is basically invincibility, they're gonna play as aggressive as humanly possible going for unsafe unhooks, finishing generators in the killers face, doing hex totems in the killers face, etc.
This is the real problem with DS. That it enables survivors to play extremely aggressively for a long duration of time and they absolutely cannot get punished for it. As Otzdarva put it: "Decisive Strike allows survivors to be bold, make bad mistakes and completely get away with it."
DS - Solutions
It should be deactivated under numerous circumstances. I'm a huge fan of that idea of deactivating in a locker because everybody knows this strategy, it's annoying to deal with and provides a survivor 100% protection since they won't even be in the dying state. DS is also meant to be an anti tunneling perk so it should be deactivated after that is accomplished, NOT for an extra-whatever-is-left-on-the-timer. Similarly to OoO, if a survivor is outside of a range of 32 or 40 meters of a killer, it should automatically deactivate, you are clearly not being tunneled there is no reason for you to have the perk still active.
It should also be deactivated if you begin repairing a generator, DS is a self preservation perk it is meant to keep you alive immediately after the unhook. If you feel safe enough to repair a generator while still injured, there is no reason for you to have the perk still active.
Hex: NOED - Problems
OP's idea does absolutely nothing to solve the issue, survivors have no idea whether or not a killer is running NOED until someone has been hit at the very end, so they have no idea whether or not they should be seeking out the destruction of every totem on the map. If they aren't running noed you are very clearly wasting precious time you could be doing repairing generators, saving teammates, healing teammates, etc. Wasting that much time seeking out every totem which could be really well hidden could very well cost you the match. NOED Triggering once the EGC has initiated rather than after all generators have been completed is kind of a meh idea since this core issue remains, alongside the fact that in many circumstances killers did no work to earn this bonus and simply punishes survivors for playing well.
Hex: NOED - Solutions
@CheersTC idea of NOED triggering after a late game hook for 45 seconds is not a bad one, the killer did some work and they are rewarded for this. This should be the motto for the perk at all times, it shouldn't be a crutch for bad killers to snag kills at the very end, it should be a perk that rewards good killers who are in real tight and close matches the smidge of extra pressure that they would need to win a match after they've already performed really well.
Perk that provides a really powerful effect on par with NOED have some kind of conditions that need to be fulfilled. Most notably Hex: Devour Hope requires you to get three stacks of unhooks outside a certain range for instant downs and 5 stacks for moris, a survivor equivalent might be Mettle of Man which requires three stacks of protection hits in order for you to tank one that would have put you in the dying state.
Likewise, NOED should require you to fulfill some similar conditions before gaining its benefits. You should have a certain number of hooks or possibly better - put survivors into the dying state a certain number of times before you get the instant downs. This goes all the way up into after the last generator has been repaired, you might not have fulfilled the requirements after the last generator has been completed but you can still fulfill them after such as downing someone normally if they're the last stack you need. Afterwhich NOED will immediately activate and give you access to instant downs - possibly for a limited time renewed after each hook you get like @CheersTC recommended.
CONCLUDING
DS Changes:
What survivors get - The core integrity of a perk that keeps you from being tunneled immediately off the hook for a certain period of time remains, giving you the opportunity to escape the killer, heal yourself up, and stay alive.
What killers get - Prevention of extreme abuse of the invincibility factor DS provides, survivors will no longer be allowed to play extremely aggressive under the protection of DS. If a survivor is truly not being tunneled and outside a range of 32 or 40 meters away from the killer they cannot run back to the killer and pull some aggressive stunts later. Jumping in a locker no longer 100% guarantees a survivor protection as the perk will deactivate, and it will also deactivate as soon as he / she begins repairing a generator so baiting a killer into grabbing them off a generator is no longer viable either.
Hex: NOED Changes:
What survivors get - Less frequent abuse and cheap wins from killers who were not skilled enough to complete the prerequisite stacks.
What killers get - The small bit of extra pressure that a killer may require in order to turn the tide of a close match, and secure kills at the very end that would otherwise have been lost.
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@Rin_is_my_waifu said:
They use words and phrases like "this killer takes no skill", "braindead killer", "boring", "annoying" etc to refer to killers who can't be bullied or looped for 5 gens.
On the contrary, DS, BT and survivor in general require a lot more skill according to them
Lmao, wait a minute, this is actually the right answer.
I mean seriously, you can't tell me that a burn victim, with a homemade clawed glove who is bleeding through generators, flickering in and out of visibility, and creates pools of blood through which the souls of the damned grab and tug at you as you run past is BORING.
But pre-rework Freddy which made sitting on a generator and holding m1 10x slower was not boring???
You're not fooling anybody survivor mains. Especially the fellas like me who play both ######### sides
To me as a survivor the only "boring" situation is not one that is killer limited, it's any killer who decides to camp. Camping is no fun for anybody, the guy camping gets to sit there, the guy getting camped gets to hang there, and I get to sit on a generator holding m1. Very cool gameplay fun guy (of course this doesn't include situations where the killer is forced to do so, IE super aggressively altruistic survivors, or it's the endgame and no generators are left, in which case I get it).
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@Awkward_Fiend said:
Robert Englund Freddy is a must.
I just wanted to throw out another idea, if they manage to get Robert Englund Freddy I'd really love to see the Needle Fingers as an alternate glove option (where the clawed glove is replaced with syringes on each finger). I had this really cool idea that since the devs are really into cosmetics that have moving parts (starting to see a lot of loose objects in new cosmetics), or another example are The Pig's alternate weapon cosmetics which is a drill bit that spins, or a Saw that vibrates, both of which make noise, you could do the same for the Syringes.
Inside each syringe is a blue liquid, some kind of drugs that he could inject into his victim. When walking around the blue liquid could actually slosh around inside in response to the player's movement. After Freddy slashes someone with the needles, the liquid inside sloshes around inside and afterward when he does the little flair of his fingers in the cooldown animation, a little bit of the blue liquid could squirt out of the syringes.
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@Fibijean said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1193055#Comment_1193055
As I said, I think the bloodpoint grind is actually a problem. But that's a separate thing from the shard grind that we're discussing here, and you seem to be conflating the two.
Only because as I said, you don't want grindy aspects and mechanics to be a part of all facets of the game. I've made my point, if you're still unclear you can just refer back to the "wall of text". I am looking at this from the long term point of view, how can we best sustain the game down the road rather than cash in on immediate success, I can point out to a number of examples outside of Dead By Daylight such as League of Legends, or Rainbow Six Siege, (which deal with the same issue of too many playable characters to grind for) where they make the older characters cheaper to purchase both with the in-game currency and real currency, as a legitimate business model. If your views are still at odds with mine then at this point we can only an agree to disagree.
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Normally I might be inclined to say reworking existing perks since I'm a huge advocate for taking older outdated perks and buffing or reworking them. (Perfect example: Insidious for killers, Open Handed for Survivors) Or even perks that have been released recently that only fulfill a niche purpose or builds(Perfect examples: Cruel limits, Mindbreaker, Blood Echo for killers, Lucky Break, Off the Record, and Second Wind for Survivors)
However,
I have an extremely strong feeling that the next chapter is going to be a licensed one and all of the likeliest candidates have me really excited. Top 3 likeliest due to various reasons are Pennywise, Pinhead, and Candyman. Pennywise because he's been a hype character request for a long time, we know the devs themselves want him, It Chapter 2 which was recently released more or less has people paying attention to the character. Pinhead because he's also been a big community request for a long time, especially surging recently after the chapter 15 teaser trailer which had the whole community thinking it was Pinhead, though it turned out to be the Deathslinger. How crazy would it be if the devs made Hellraiser the very next chapter, and were actually teasing both chapter 15 AND chapter 16 in one teaser? Although most evidence actually points to Candyman, he has a new movie coming out that releases suspiciously close to the date chapter 16 would be released and much more recent news: Tony Todd - the actor who has played Candyman since the first film in 1992, just recently followed the Dead By Daylight twitter account. Coincidence? I doubt it.
Hence my vote, I want the next chapter to be as top notch as possible if it's any of these three that I've mentioned.
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@NittanyBruin1719 said:
How would you feel about Candyman as the killer for the next release? I'm not of the opinion that liking a bunch of DBD related social media in any way indicates the characters destined for the game like some seem to be, but I enjoy the discussion regardless. While I'm not sure I love it from an aesthetic standpoint (find his base design a bit boring I suppose), I think his abilities would fit the game perfectly and--well--Tony Todd is just awesome.
Seems like two common ideas get suggested power-wise: the ability to place mirrors around the map that he can use to teleport. He could then have add-ons that make survivors in range of the mirror oblivious, the mirror shows survivor auras, etc. These mirrors could of course be broken by survivors as well. Then, a second ability relating to bees: whether this be that he can send them out to track and mark a survivor, revealing their auras momentarily/afflicting survivors with various status effects upon contact, or using bees to momentarily trap a generator or window for a brief duration, wounding survivors that interact with the bee swarm. Seems like a bit of an amalgamation of other killer abilities varied slightly, but sounds fun to me nonetheless.
I don't want to alarm anyone, but isn't this EXACTLY The Demogorgon's power just tailored to Candyman's personal backstory? Lol?
Demogorgon places portals to teleport between them to traverse the map
Candyman places mirrors to teleport between them to traverse the map
Survivors near demo portals: Oblivious
Survivors near candyman mirrors: Oblivious
Survivors near demo portals: killer instinct reveal position
Survivors near candyman mirrors: auras reveal position
both portals and mirrors are able to be broken.
Demogorgon secondary ability to make him more viable in chases: Shred
Candyman secondary ability to make him more viable in chases: Bees
Lol this version of Candyman's potential ability probably won't make it in. But I agree there is more than enough to work with to make a unique power, and I also agree Tony Todd is awesome.
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@PapiQuentin_ said:
It disgusts me how many people picked that rat Kate
Y'know, I'm sensing some kind of history or tension here...
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@Fibijean said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1191099#Comment_1191099
While I understand the point you're trying to make, I think I understand the new player experience better than you're giving me credit for, as I've spent a lot of time watching and discussing the game with my brother, who started playing last November, in recent months. He has never expressed an issue with the character grind, since the DBD DLC is actually relatively cheap and the five free characters kept him happy enough until he felt ready to branch out and buy more. He has problems with the bloodpoint grind, which I think is a potential issue, but I think there's a definite distinction to be made between the two in this case.
In terms of my personal history, I spent a large proportion of my childhood saving up for Sims expansion packs. I was usually only able to buy maybe 4 in a year, and in the meantime I kept myself happy with what I had. Did I want those games and feel jealous of people I saw who had them? Absolutely, but I was okay with not being given them and having to work for them myself. And those games were way overpriced, and a lot of the content in them was very obviously eliminated from the base game just so that they could sell it as an expansion later.
Point being, given my own background and what I've observed in new players who I admire and respect as people, I honestly have a difficult time believing that the issue with the shard grind is anything more than one of entitlement. I could very well be wrong about that, and perhaps there's an argument to be made that it's good business practice to cater to your audience regardless of whether their wants are reasonable or justified, but so far I haven't seen a lot that suggests otherwise.
And I'm aware that might come across very patronising, but the reason I include all that stuff about my own personal experiences isn't to suggest that I'm better than anyone else, but just to explain what my opinions are informed by, in the same way that anyone's views are informed by their background and experiences, so that you can better understand why I take the position that I do.
*Shrugs*
Like I said, there's genuinely room to dispute my point currently in the moment, but eventually at some point in time in the future I don't think it will be viable to keep the current cost especially when considering the Bloodpoint grind. If people see that the bloodpoint grind is bad and they also see the grind to get new characters is equally so, then the whole title itself becomes synonymous with a general impossible or at least very uphill grind that permeates all facets of the game.
At the end of the day, I am experienced with and love the content BHVR produces enough to buy every new chapter they produce, and cosmetics for some of my favorite characters (Ghostface, Steve, [probably Ash down the line]) to support the game and its upward trend. So the iridescent shard grind doesn't affect me all that much outside of cosmetics, at the same time it's hard to ignore the fact other people who have to grind out for hours on end only to get access to a blank slate of a character that needs even more grinding afterward for perks on top. And that eventually down the line they'd have to do this 40+ times to get access to every perk on the list just for their main on survivor and killer.
It doesn't seem sustainable to me in the slightest, but ok. Agree to disagree.
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Now this is a Pog moment
Poggers
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lol
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@PapiQuentin_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1191121#Comment_1191121
GET THAT THING AWAY FROM ME
More for me then 😘
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@Okapi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/141321/can-someone-explain-who-and-what-candyman-is
Candyman was a son of a former slave turned wealthy industrialist in the 1890s. He was studying art in Chicago when he was commissioned to paint family poratraits for a rich white man. He fell in love with the man's virgin daughter and started a romance in secret. Her father found out about the couple and gathered a lynch mob to kill Candyman.
The mob kidnapped him from his home. They beat him, chopped of his painting hand, covered him in honey wax and then burnt him alive while teasingly chanting Candyman.Filled with vengeance his spirit haunted the Chicago area killing anyone who dared to mock him or doubt him. Those who chanted his name would cause him to appear.
He has a hook for a hand, his body is burnt and decayed. Like Freddy or a Zombie. It's also filled with bees. Candyman can teleport, hypnotize people, levitate, summon bees, and is capable of telekinesis. He can also mess with people's mind and cause hallucinations.
There's a lot for the devs to work with.
Pretty good synopsis for people who don't recognize him or his story.
I'd like to add he's kind of like a Spirit or Ghost in a way, he can turn invisible or only appear to certain people (IE those who chant his name).
Imagine a less powerful Freddy Krueger but he isn't restricted to attacking people in their sleep / dream realm. Being comparable to Freddy K. in any way is honestly terrifying...
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@PapiQuentin_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1186396#Comment_1186396
Kate looks like a beaver after I bashed it's face in with a bat
Come again?
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You didn't make a poll but this is in polls.
That being said I do agree the grind for iridescent shards should be reduced. (Short answer)
@Fibijean said:
As a player, I'd love it if they did, but should they, considering that shards are essentially a free way to get something you would otherwise pay money for? I don't think so. To me, it seems reasonable that if someone is going to get something that costs money for free, they had better be willing to work hard to earn it.
(Long Answer) The thing is, shards haven't changed much if at all ever since they and the shop were introduced alongside the Curtain Call Chapter which introduced Kate Denson and the Clown 2 years ago in 2018 (almost half the game's lifespan so far since the fourth year anniversary comes up in June). That was the 8th chapter, and since then number of DLC Chapters and characters has more than doubled (chapter 16 will be coming in May / June but there are also the paragraphs-not-chapters to consider) since then. Making the grind much more difficult than it was back then, simply because there are so many more characters to work toward and unlock.
Disconnected Veterans
When it comes to these kinds of questions I think veterans like us are a bit detached or disconnected from that issue until we're reminded of it, because more or less we've been keeping pace with the game's progress and content released. If we want the game to continue on an upward path however, we need to facilitate the entry of new players, and the grind is a serious issue for them when new characters and perks are constantly being released on a regular schedule. It's important to regularly maintain the mindset of "If I was a brand new player who just bought the game an hour ago, what would I think?"
If you want further proof of this, notice that you yourself @Fibijean Have made over 7,000 posts and the guy you're talking to, has made one. (As of the time I am writing)
Long-term viability for the lifetime of the game
So the answer here from a business standpoint @Fibijean is actually yes. Having too many characters and perks and other things to grind for can be so intimidating to new players that it'll end up pushing them away. The question is when? How do you know when you have so many characters that the grind becomes insufferable for a brand new fresh players and faces? The real answer is we don't know. You can make the argument it's not now, and there might be some room to make that point, but the reality is that at the pace DBD is releasing content, EVENTUALLY a change has to be made.
The Grind
When people talk about the grind they talk about Bloodpoints and whether or not perk tiers should be removed considering the 100+ perks there are and whether or not prestiging a character is even worth it because the grind to P3 is so freakin slow. But iridescent shards are ALSO part of this conversation since it's the primary way you see new players able to play all the fun characters we get to play like Deathslinger, Spirit or their favorite survivor they identify with like Jeff Johansson or Kate Denson. Unless you want to shell out more than triple the cost of the game to buy every single chapter with actual money (and somehow I don't think someone new who doesn't even know if they like the game or not won't want to do this). Which I think even the developers know your average consumer isn't going to realistically do
TL;DR People don't buy additional DLC unless they like the core product. It's a bit more difficult to like the core product when the full experience is locked behind either those same paywalls or an intense grind. Pick your poison so to speak
And I may not know what it is like to grind for a character that costs 9,000 iridescent shards but I do know what it is like to grind for a cosmetic that costs 13,500. That is not a quick grind
A real life example of a solution to this problem
Take League of Legends for example, the game quite literally has over 100 playable characters. Would the game really have the millions of players it has if every character was worth the same 6300 blue essence (their in game currency) that the newest characters are worth? Probably not. The oldest characters are actually worth much, much less of the in-game currency at some 1350 blue essence. I only recently started playing within the last year because of some friends, but from what I've heard from them who have been playing on and off for the past couple of years, the grind specifically for new players has been dramatically reduced. Your first couple of levels you are rewarded with a kind of case that gives you three characters "shards" one of which you can upgrade permanently to own that character for free and the other two shards you can keep to buy that character for a reduced Blue Essence cost. If you don't like that character at all, you can disenchant that shard for blue essence itself which you can obviously use to buy the characters you do want. The newer the character the shard belongs to, the more blue essence you get. After about 10 or so levels of being rewarded like this you start to earn a different case that gives you only 1 shard for some random character that you can upgrade for a reduced blue essence cost or disenchant for blue essence. But the levels themselves are far easier to gain at lower levels now than they were a couple years ago so even earning characters after you've exceeded the initial "new player buffer" is easier than it once was.
Back to DBD, does DBD have over 100 characters? No, we've got almost 20 killers (19 specifically) and almost 20 survivors (21 specifically) with absolutely no difference between the gains of a veteran player who has the knowledge of how systems work (how to earn BP more quickly and things like that) and a greenie who might have seen some gameplay, but doesn't know squat about the in-game systems and mechanics that take place. With absolutely no "new player buffer" like they have in League for the greenie in DBD, just have at it, and if you stick around long enough figuratively banging your head against the wall in the midst of matchmaking issues which pit you up against players with hundreds of hours, you get to make it to the other side and have experienced conversations with the rest of us. What kind of a welcome is that??
Concluding / sOLUTIONS
I'm not saying, that there shouldn't be any grind in DBD there should. At the end of the day the grind in a weird kind of way is part of the fun, it gives both you and me something to work toward. At the same time, the devs should be making money off of the content they produce, but if we want to make the game viable for the long term and encourage new players to stick around, they need to be provided incentive to play beyond the fun / scary horror gameplay DBD is known for. Those small successes that slowly build a player up until they've amassed the knowledge and experience to know their preferences, what to do, how they want to do it, etc.
Personally, I think the idea of making older characters cost less iridescent shards is a great one, it doesn't sacrifice the core integrity of the grind but it gives new players the opportunity to expand beyond what they're given at the very start. The ability to try new things, and incentive to stick around for longer to the point where if they feel comfortable with buying original (or more likely the licensed) content DBD has to offer they know whether or not it's worth it. I mean that or make iridescent shards easier to earn across the board as OP suggested, but regardless something needs to be done. Maybe not now, maybe not even soon, but eventually at some point in the future the current grind is simply not going to support the amount of content DBD will have.
And to a certain extent BHVR already does this, whenever DLC goes on sale the oldest DLC goes on sale for the biggest discounts some 50% off or more, while the new stuff is discounted for less at 10/15/20% off give or take. That's still taking the core concept of the newest stuff being the most valued and older stuff being cheaper, all that needs to be done now is take that concept and apply it to the in-game currency for characters.
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Short answer: Yes.
I don't feel like elaborating specifics, but there's plenty to like about the game, just as much if not more than there is to dislike about it. Hence why player numbers have been going steady and / or rising for the past 3 years with the fourth anniversary coming up in June. I have a really strong feeling that the next Chapter is going to be a licensed one as well, and I'm hella excited to see Pinhead, Pennywise, or Candyman to make it in (these are the likeliest candidates imo).
PS. You didn't make a poll, yet this is in polls.
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@Uistreel said:
Could we get a mix maybe? Like an outdoor map that has a main building that's half of the map size.
I've wanted this for Ghostface before he came out, Woodsboro High School would have made a great map had BHVR been able to secure the movie license (to be fair, I like the Ghostface we did get a lot though). The High School for the most part would be an "indoor map" just because the building is that big, filled with Classrooms, Laboratories, a library, lunch room, Gym, Locker rooms, bathrooms, etc. but there would be outside courtyards and a general outside perimeter you could walk around too
I could see it happening if the devs secured the movie license for a new paragraph chapter that saw only a survivor from the Scream movies IE Randy Meeks come out with the Woodsboro High School as a map.
Or just unrelated to Scream altogether a high school (or College campus) would make a great original map in general. If it was a College Campus map, it could be way bigger than the high school and different buildings could be different locations rather than a single location that's reworked multiple times to change the placements of certain assets like how the Springwood realm is currently set up.
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There is no poll so this doesn't belong in polls
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I also hope that Ace sees a main focus in the next tome.
He is a pretty Lucky guy after all... Third Time's the charm. 😉
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@Awkward_Fiend said:
The actual question you're asking is different than the poll question. I'm interested in new modes, I'm absolutely NOT interested in going to v1.0.0.
I agree there is a bit of a disparity between the poll question itself, and what you're actually describing.
New modes is a great idea, and they toyed with different objectives in the holiday events of yesteryear from the original Hallowed Blight Event which saw the Visceral Cankers to the Lunar New Year Moonrise event which saw the Lunar Year Lanterns. People have suggested a bare bones mode where no add ons or perks are allowed, and I don't mind this suggestion I think it's a pretty decent one
But going back to V1.0.0. is absolutely a despicable thought, and if you really "feel" the decisions the devs are making now are weighing down the game Imma be straight up you're feeling wrong. Original Dead By Daylight was a survivor's hayday and absolutely no second thought was given to the killer.
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@Walker_of_the_fog_96 said:
A man can dream, right?
The Clown just generally needs all the attention he can get right now. Obviously that starts with making the Character's gameplay and mechanics more solid and valued at higher levels of play, but truly every bit of effort that the devs put into individual characters sees their use increased dramatically.
Doctor's rework + the integration of his new unique chase theme really updated the character to be much more viable in the modern meta. I would love to see the Clown get some of the same serious love and updates
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Anybody who remembers P2P from 2017 or earlier remembers how garbage laggy it could get if your host had garbage internet, even after the system was optimized to be better it could still be unreliable and it would suck.
As killer you wouldn't feel it, but you would see it sometimes, people just standing stock still or not vaulting a window quickly in time. Sure, I'm human and I'll take the ez w when I can, but at the end of the day it's cheap and not skillful gameplay.
Ever since the switch to Dedicated servers, it hasn't been the easiest road and some of the more technical things have fallen short like hitboxes and ranged hitboxes, but the one thing I am very glad about is that it has eventually become buttery smooth on both sides and I have never had to suffer from lag ever again. Dedicated servers are only ever going to be improved upon so I can't wait to see them be even better in the future
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@Joelwino said:
I was gonna vote for Kate but the Dwight gang make a compelling case.
Yeah, but then again Dwight at least has two paragraphs of lore, Ace has 1
How is that more compelling??
I mean sure, we've seen multiple characters get stories in the same Tome so it's not impossible to see both Dwight & Ace get expanded upon, but still...
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I agree that premonition needs to be reworked / buffed (it really is and has always been an inferior version of spine chill) I'm not sure I like this rework though, since it takes away from the integrity of what the perk originally was which I think was a good effect all things considered.
I think your idea would be better served as a completely separate perk idea.
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@Flopovic said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1183317#Comment_1183317
I absolutely felt that. very well written too ! lets hope they do something about the grind at the end
Lol thanks, I really do hope they do something about that post-tome grind. Your idea / suggestion was a good one
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@Okoru said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1180478#Comment_1180478
Rank rewards would be sick! Like 100K BP and 2500 Shards.
I would much rather take the shards than the BP. BP (even though everyone needs a lot of it) is ridiculously easy to earn quickly, especially with the various 2x BP events that take place sporadically throughout the year.
Shards take so much longer and there is no quicker way to earn them, Iridescent Shard Bonus offerings out there, no perks to help you with getting shards more quickly. I have every character, but hey what can I say cosmetics are cool. I'm sure the newer players out there would really like to see incentive to play well and get high rank so that they can earn the original characters that much more quickly
But let's be real, what we really need are DEVOTION rewards. Rank rewards you might be iffy about because of the "is it easy, is it not easy to reach red rank, yadda yadda yadda" but it takes some serious time to gain Devotion and it seriously seems like something that should come with a reward. Rank has a practical purpose, you're supposed to be queued with people of a similar rank / skill level, Devotion level has absolutely NO PRACTICAL PURPOSE outside of showing how dedicated you are as a player, nothing is done with devotion level at all.
You should get something out of that! Cosmetics, or maybe you constantly earn bloodpoints faster at 1.1x the rate of a normal player if you've got devotion 1 1.2x for devotion 2 etc. so on and so forth. Or iridescent shards, or hell even auric cells, the most dedicated players in DBD SHOULD be getting rewarded somehow, otherwise don't have a devotion system in the first place?? It practically taunts me at this point.
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Not a true survivor main anymore (though I used to be a long time ago) I keep to both sides now. That being said Dedicated Servers are always something that can be improved upon, I'm actually really happy with how good they are already, they're extremely smooth and anybody who's been playing long enough can remember the extreme stuttering and lag caused by hosts with poor internet on the old P2P system.
That and matchmaking. Playing at red ranks with a red ranked (or close to) to killer but getting shafted by the sudden greens, yellows and lower purples, that appear out of nowhere is absolutely debilitating as a solo.
Side note: camping is not "game implemented" it's not exactly an intended feature, there are no perks that help you to camp (outside of insidious which is flat out an utterly outdated perk that has not seen widespread use since 2016) and if anything there are only perks that encourage you to not camp. Make Your Choice only works when you are outside of a certain range of a hook, Hex: Devour Hope only gains stacks if you're outside of range, one of the best perks in the game: BBQ and Chili - is an anti camping perk by encouraging you to leave the hook, gives you a straight up bead on where to go next revealing all other survivors outside of a range, perks like DS and BT discourage tunneling. Some situations force you to camp (survivors being too aggressive for the unhook, or all gens done with gates at 99 or open) but for the most part it's discouraged. And likely later down the line more perks will be doled out for killers and survivors that discourage camping / tunneling.
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@DetailedDetriment said:
Of all the survivors, Dwight and Ace could probably benefit the most from lore.
I wholeheartedly agree.
The earlier characters have distinctly less depth to them, not because the devs put less effort, but because they hadn't yet seen the success they would see down the line. Later characters have full blown paragraphs upon paragraphs of lore with full blown artwork dedicated to visually telling those stories because their team for writing, storyboarding, art, etc. was hugely expanded upon and they put loads more work into these areas when they could.
The most obvious reference to this is Ace, he's already such a cool character without it all but MAN he's got a single paragraph to describe who he is and his backstory. It's a very well written paragraph that establishes the concept of his character, and his cosmetics and other little details have done wonders for further establishing who he is, but man we need to see more of this Suave, Smooth talking silver tongue, charming, charismatic, ladies man, and lucky bastard... I would love to see all the different jams this guy found himself stuck in but lucky enough to see himself out of. There's such mystery behind the character, who was he in deep with? who tipped him off? What kind of high-highs has this man reached and low-lows has he been to??
Some trivia bits that provide openings into his character:
In his default Ace actually wears a silver ring on his ring finger, indicating he's possibly married.
One of Ace's premium outfits is that of a fighter pilot, possibly served in the air force?
A recently released premium outfit called Ace Vegas describes his "gambling Mecca: Las Vegas" what's the story there?
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@Fog_King said:
I would say Nea, but Quentin is bad too. However, he might have his face reworked, but poor Nea won't.
People really be saying Nea, but have y'all even seen the Night-Out-Nea cosmetic??? Like Goddamn, Nea got cosmetics to glow up Quentin really be lookin like he running on 2 hours of sleep and some energy drinks all the time. Don't feel bad when this guy desperately needs the rework and the other gets cosmetics wearing sunglasses, makeup, face masks, and a bunch of other #########
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Personally, I think I'm able to tell whether or not my own performance was up to par and if it wasn't, well need more practice I guess. Kills are a pretty good reference, 2 kills is either a "tie" or just the "ideal end result" which I can be happy with and obviously anything above is good performance, anything below is underperformance.
It's not the end all be all though, because I can get less than 2 kills but still have played really well (especially if I'm playing an extremely poor killer that's not good like the Clown). I could have gotten real close to the actual "win condition" for example 2 hooking everyone and having everybody on death hook, but just lacking the pressure to secure any kills at that point. That still might have been very close though, so I won't beat myself up too much over matches like that
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@Walker_of_the_fog_96 said:
@Seiko300 the broken chainsaw would work like ashy slashy's cosmetic, maybe reduce it to the same size as ashy slashy?
Except it doesn't work like Ashy Slashy's cosmetic. That's literally a hand puppet, you can HOLD things with a hand puppet.
Answer me this: Can you pick up a cup while using a hand puppet of Kermit the Frog? (Without the use of your free hand)
Now answer me this: Can you pick up a cup when your hand is in an empty tissue box. (The equivalent of having a metal box [chainsaw] in place of where your hand should be, again, without the use of your free hand)
If the answer isn't YES for BOTH of these, how the hell do you expect to be doing any of the complex actions that Dead By Daylight requires survivors to do like mend the deep wounds and gashes caused by knives, axes, pieces of metal welded together in a crude fashion, or fix complex pieces of machinery.
If you're still skeptical, think about how easy it would be to do any of these things, with that empty tissue box over one of your hands.
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Wow, completely one sided results, 29 people who voted he definitely doesn't need the nerf vs. the OP who originally made the poll in the first place. (At the time of writing)
Those results are the way they are for good reason though.
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@FichteHiro said:
I don't know, there isn't a whole lot you can do. Also, chances are you'll be done with the Rift if you completed all challenges (you earn RF from the XP gained too).
Maybe you could get a fragment bonus after you complete Level 4 of the Tome?
This is just not true. There is a serious post-tome grind after you've finished all the challenges, not everybody knows this because they don't like to actively go out of their way to change their playstyle, do all the challenges, yadda yadda yadda but I do.
Doing all the challenges as a normal human being (who has a decent amount of time to kill on weekends and some spare time on weekdays) who isn't a huge pro at the game and doing all these challenges in a reasonable amount of time (you won't be finishing them all in one match, and you might find some difficulty with specific ones that you can get stuck on, so you'll be playing multiple trials gaining xp without necessarily finishing a challenge each trial).
ALL that being said, the challenges in the tome take you about 85% of the way there. Most of them finished and only a few left will get you to about at least level 60 (out of 70), this particular time around the challenges took me all the way to level 65.
I don't know about you, but Post-Time grind is absolutely god awful. When you're not playing for yourself and you're just grinding because you're on a timer with a finite amount of days, I had to ignore friends who wanted to squad up in other games for multiple days in a row (and obviously this annoyed them a little bit), and go out of my way to get the tome done because the challenges don't take you all the way.
It's a seriously long slog through the last bit too, you think "oh, 5 tiers isn't a lot, you already made it through 65" Yeah, 65 with the help of the triple and quintuple fragments I was earning from normal and master challenges. Doing it purely off of your own xp in your matches is absolutely terrible and it takes so long.
Breaking it down: It takes 800 xp to earn a fragment, playing average game where you don't DC or die early (if you're playing survivor) nets you around 400/500 xp this can last around 10 minutes maybe a little bit more or a little less. Playing a sweaty game where you go all out and you get a 4k as killer or play really well pop a bunch of gens, save a bunch of people off hooks, make your chases last, etc. and escape as survivor, games that definitely last over 10 minutes long. These net you roughly 900 xp. So in layman's terms, it takes you about 1-2 matches to earn a fragment, it takes 10 fragments to complete a tier in the rift. So for 5 levels, you're looking at a bare minimum of 50 matches and that's if you're going sweaty every single game getting 4k's or escaping and if you're not getting either of those you're at least playing really, really well. Which is obviously unrealistic, so it's definitely going to take most people over 50 matches to do this, but say it was 50 matches, 50 matches that lasted exactly 10 minutes each. That's 500 minutes, divide that by 60 minutes per hour and we're looking at roughly 8 hours and 20 minutes of pure sweaty tryhard matches, for most normal people who just aren't going to go full sweaty tryhard just tack on a couple hours (because 1 - 2 matches for a fragment worst case scenario you're playing 100 matches, so 1000 minutes so 16 hours or just double the minimum time)
Now, 8 hours, in gamer terms, isn't actually that bad that's maybe one full gaming session where you're gamin' out all day, on DBD. Nothing new, plenty of people do that, and if you wanted to you could break that up over a period of 2 days so four hours a day. It still doesn't change the fact that none of this is FUN, that's what all this math adds up to it adds up to "not fun".
TL;DR
The grind should be to finish all the challenges, finishing all the challenges should finish you the rift and that's it. That being said that's not the way it actually is, so I would more than gladly welcome a repeating challenge, something that earns you fragments over and over in the mean time. It could be a little separate bubble in the top right of every level of a tome level 1's repeating challenge is easy but only nets you 1 fragment, level 2's is a bit more difficult but still doable so you get 2 fragments, 3's is a standard daily challenge which might be difficult for some so you get 3 fragments, and level 4's repeating challenge is a true master challenge that actually might be pretty difficult, but it gets you 5 fragments like all the other master challenges. I would absolutely wholeheartedly welcome this feature, and if you don't you're an absolute fool who is asking for the grind to be longer than it should be without ANYTHING to actually do once all your challenges are done.
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The maps themselves look really, really good and fit with their theme very well. I don't think anyone is denying that, that by itself deserves positive recognition in votes like these.
Only problem is that they're notoriously dark, at least last I checked, I think it's been awhile since I've had either of the locations show up in one of my more recent trials. Which is annoying as a survivor, and even worse for a killer especially amongst your trademarked P3 blendettes.
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@Hailoh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1174705#Comment_1174705
I think that items like these should be supplemented with overall survivor nerfs, just to be clear. I did think that these were interesting, though.
Then I can probably get behind this yeah, instead of making survivors more powerful in chases than they already are we need to get those breakable walls implemented across the board on all maps, nerf things like DS, and buff killers who have woefully little impact on their matches IE Clown. The Pig, Leatherface, and of course, especially the Clown. The Clown needs a buff so bad I mentioned him twice (thrice if you count this mention).
From there survivors can be scaled up in power in different and a variety of ways, to have access to different tools and escape options aside from just running the same loops around. Such as the smoke bomb you mentioned
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@LALYTHIA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1178781#Comment_1178781
I will remind you that this thread is about NOED. Which is why I keep my thoughts/feelings on other perks relatively short. But, I did read your entire write up. I'm curious - what is your solution? DS has been reduced to a perk specifically designed to counter tunneling...so what is the solution to tunneling, if not DS?
Now that DC ban is in effect and killers feel free to play as dirty and inconsiderate as they like, because they know you're not going to leave a match if they face camp and tunnel you, the need for a perk like DS has never been more prevalent.
I find it funny that you complain about how bold DS makes survivors. I hear time and time again from killers in post-game that they treated our team they way they did because we "hid too much". So survivors are punished by unsportsmanlike killers when we're too immersive...and also abusive ######### if we're too aggressive. Interesting.
"...merely acting like you're still under the protection of the DS timer is enough for killers to cower under your short 5'4 survivor butt"...this sounds incredibly pathetic. If you "cower in fear" of DS after it's dropped off, that's on YOU. In the scenario you described - the survivors were going to get that gen anyway - it was 90% completed. It would take 4 or 5 seconds to finish. A normal or uninjured skillful player would have run in and done the exact same thing. I commit to a gen like that even when DS isn't active...especially if its the last gen. Its worth taking a hit. This proves nothing about your claims of how 'abusive' it is.
Just like many many other perks, like NOED, it has the ability to be very advantageous in the right moments. Its also still very high risk for the aforementioned reasons. A) Killers may not tunnel you (although they almost always do these days) and B) they can also just slug you and run out your timer...or god forbid C) just hit you again. 🙄
Taking a hit for a teammate is actually a survivor objective. So, you can blame Behavior for survivors using themselves and their perks to be altruistic. Its merely part of a survivor's pt structure - although I do understand the feeling of loss when a body block stops you from getting a down or a hook you worked for. That sucks...its also part of the game. You aren't going to win every chase or every match...even though rn killers are winning more matches than survivors.
I also love how numerous killers have built in insta-down abilities - not even perks - so they only have to hit survivors 1 time to down them...and killers have such a melt down about survivors being able to jump out off their shoulder, mainly if they're tunneled but also if downed within 60 seconds of their hook. You're mad because they get off the hook and aren't completely unproductive? Really?
I think you said it best in your own write up when you stated, "For the next short period..." and "capitalizing on their brief period of invulnerability"...killers have no problem capitalizing on their "brief" moments of invincibility...god forbid instead of all survivors slinking off into the corner to halt their objectives and touch their booty they actually try and do something with their 60 seconds...which doesn't make them invulnerable, it just means they can take an extra hit. This is not the issue you are making it out to be in a handful of specific scenarios.
I can understand that in very select situations it sucks for people who don't have a toxic play style and just want to earn hooks and get their pips fair and square. I know that because I don't have a toxic play style and it feels bad as killer to watch someone you just worked to catch scamper off while you're dazed and confused. But as a survivor in the game right now, most killers play toxic. The ratio of campy/tunnely matches to not is staggering because there is no longer ANY recourse. So, no. Survivors should not have to give up their "brief period" of invulnerability as they try and scrape together some semblance of a match while being hellaciously camped and tunneled because in some specific cases it can suck in a single match for a decent killer.
The jump was a pretty short one. NOED is a problem perk, NOED isn't the only problem perk it includes perks from both sides such as survivor DS. We're talking about problem perks as a whole here, or at least I am, rather than limiting the conversation to just noed. You might say that's "still wrong because the thread is about noed specifically" to which I would agree that's why my section on DS in my original comment was much shorter than my section talking about NOED, and it was only after your response did the conversation naturally progress into full on ignoring NOED and talking about DS.
And that's a pretty Chauvinistic perspective you've been repeating there, that "killers play dirty and inconsiderate, face camping and tunneling" when survivors play just as dirty and inconsiderate. Milking every loop for as long as possible, taunting a killer behind the safety of windows and pallets, and shoving themselves right up on the killers junk because they know they have nothing to fear so why not protect their teammate who has been injured for more than 5 minutes. I'm sorry, when was the horror game ever supposed to make you feel completely safe and secure in that role? Answer, it shouldn't and if you do something has gone terribly wrong in the system.
And if you want to talk about playing dirty, how about playing dirty outside of a game in post game chat when there are 4 survivors and 1 killer, all of a sudden it is perfectly acceptable for survivors to verbally harass the other side regardless of circumstance, even if that circumstance was an absolutely normal game. You're still gonna tell me survivors are the innocent victims being bullied by the big bad killers?
Sorry, but no I don't buy into killers are the only ones that are toxic theory one bit. and as for the "most killers play toxic" part, I would just have to ask what ranks you play at (not that it matters too much right now because matchmaking is b00ty) because from where I stand at my red ranks as survivor I don't see much of that at all and when I do see it, it's because they were forced to and don't have any other choice, of course I understand that because I play both sides.
I find it funny that you complain about camping and tunneling when in most cases, it's the survivors that force a killer into that position which is pretty ironic if you think about it. You hate the thing, that you force the other side to do... Taking your own example "being punished for being too immersed" I actually know exactly what you're talking about because I've seen it happen. A killer sees the noticeable presence of survivors, generators being done, some scratch marks he was able to follow that came up with nothing but dirt, but no actual survivors. And yet somehow, the generators still whizz by because that team is still genrushing while being P3 blendettes, it's goddamn infuriating because you never get the chance to even start a chase with one of these claudettes. So when you finally find one because 3 or 4 gens are done, what can you do? You patrol the gens that are already being done at lightning speed regardless if you are there or not, let the claudette go and never see another survivor ever again until you finally see all four of them shaking their butts at the exit gates?? No thanks.
But enough of the "playful" banter, you want to hear my solution? Fine.
DS & Hex: NOED Proposed Solution -
Both of these perks are far too easy to gain access to their abilities, a killer just needs any one of the three conditions I previously mentioned on March 25th on his side and he just and waits until the endgame to get 1 hit downs for free with no work or effort. Likewise survivors don't need aggressive perks simply because that's not their role, they are not meant to take on the 6 foot plus killer wielding a machete they need defensive perks which is exactly what they're going to get.
You want an anti tunneling perk? I'll give it to you, but absolutely NOTHING more, this is how DS should work. It will prevent you and save you from being immediately tunneled off the hook, however if you have successfully disengaged and the killer is nowhere near you it will not save you if you try to be super aggro, or make a stupid mistake. By this I mean imposing a second condition on the perk, if the killer is within 32 meters of the unhook, you get a timer for 60 seconds. If at any point you make it farther than that maximum range of 32 meters from a killer, the timer is disabled and the perk is deactivated. Because that should mean you have escaped in most situations (if you're leaving scratch marks everywhere that can be seen from a long distance that's your own fault). In which case you should no longer need the timer because you're not at risk of being immediately tunneled. Anything beyond this goes way over what survivors should realistically have access to.
If you don't like that / the aforementioned system is too complicated (which it shouldn't be, since there are plenty of perks that work at a specific range, for example OoO works the opposite, a killer outside a certain range has his aura revealed and the survivors aura is revealed to him) we could just simplify it down to how BT works. AKA if you're unhooked within a killer's TR you have 60 seconds, and if you ever make it out of that TR the perk Deactivates, of course this would be subject to the whims of killers with access to the undetectable / oblivious status effect, reduced TR, a lullaby that acts as an extra layer of noise buffer for survivors but doesn't count as a TR, etc. And I feel you'd probably say this doesn't "preserve the integrity of what Anti-tunneling strives to achieve" so you'd probably prefer the former to the latter.
As for NOED I don't have a clear cut answer, but perks that have a similar power level, that give you access to some crazy ability usually have some setup phase, or have some kind of extra conditions on top of them like a timer. For example Devour Hope requires you to get three stacks (standing far enough away from survivors who have been unhooked) to get one hit downs, and five for a full blown mori. Mettle of Man is a survivor perk that allows you to sustain a hit that would have downed you, but requires you to take three protection hits before that can happen. The "will they won't they" game of if survivors can cleanse all totems on the map is not enough. NOED needs to have some kind of setup phase on top of this in the meantime, he / she needs to earn that effect at the end not be passive. Either that, or introduce new conditions like NOED lasts only for 120 seconds which at that point in a match, is more than enough time do so something
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@Awkward_Fiend has the right idea. As it stands matchmaking options to exclude certain factors such as certain killers (or survivors? Those damn claudettes...) or SWF squads are just a bad idea. Matchmaking and queue times are already not that great to begin with and now you want to add in conditions for the system to factor in of peoples "preferences" and what they "like and don't like" on top of that. That's not going to do anybody any good
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I've never heard of any of these characters but I'll tag my vote onto the Miner because of @TheRockstarKnight's comment, pretty catchy song. My curiosity has been piqued
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Chainsaw hand would never work btw, even if it was "broken" how the heck are you supposed to heal other survivors with that. Or save off the hook, or cleanse totems, or repair generators. What is it going to do clip through the generator and smack the guy on the other side in the face? They'd have to make completely new animations that would make most of these animations one handed and at that point it's too much effort.
I'd also like to mention I think the rights to Army of Darkness are actually completely and separately owned from the rest of the franchise which is super weird. It's why the TV show was so hard to do because they could never make any references to Army of Darkness or something along these lines
Also, also, I'd like to mention there are plenty of badass looks that Ash sports from the TV show that we have not seen yet still:
Like the dope Red Leather Jacket he wears in the first episode and throughout the show
Or the blue coat which also looks pretty cool
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It's either a good change because it completely got rid of hatch standoffs, (also EGC looks and sounds kinda cool) or it's not a good or bad change. But it's definitely not a bad change imo, I never got the timing right for pulling a hatch grab so I'm not at a loss for seeing the feature gone.
It is hella awkward though, when you and the survivor sit on the hatch at the same time now. Because you know instead of waiting like before, now both of you are spamming your keyboards as fast as possible to see which the game registers first, the hatch close or the hatch escape. It can sometimes feel a bit funky like you should have got it but it's not like you can see how fast your opponent is really going at his / her keyboard so you can't tell, otherwise it's fine.
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I like that no coffee is actually keeping up with the other options (7 hot, 7 Iced, 6 not at all as of writing). I don't really drink Coffee myself too often but when I do it's almost always Hot because Ice is just eugh, explaining why I went with Hot over not at all, since I do drink it every now and then.
I can't stand coffee without sugar or some kind of sweetener. If anything my Coffee is more sugar than Coffee
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@Xpljesus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1175845#Comment_1175845
I see the bloodpoint value as making this mandatory, rather than for the effect like you could consider old ruin
This really depends on how badly you view the grind of Dead By Daylight which is a bit subjective in a way. I've already gotten every character to level 40 (except for Zarina) for their teachables, and I've P3'd my main characters for killer and survivor a long, long time ago and now I am focused more on P3-ing killers I enjoy playing outside of my main and I'm in no huge rush to force that any faster. I'll just enjoy the ride and the road it takes to get there more or less
That being said, if you're just starting out I can see how the grind would look very, very utterly intimidating when you are trying to figure out how to play and then from there how you even like to play (your personal playstyle preference) and how to capitalize on that preference with the best set of perks. And with new perks constantly being introduced it will be even harder for new players down the line to catch up / keep up.
The grind isn't exactly a partisan issue, I think everybody in the community either wants to see it reduced or wouldn't mind. It just depends on what the devs want to do and how far they want to reduce the grind (IE get rid of all perk tiers completely to balance out the fact a future ridiculous number of perks may be in existence?).
It's important though to remember in a weird kind of sense the grind is part of the "fun" so to speak because technically it's your primary goal, before the archives existed and gave you deliberate challenges and goals, the goal was to grind out bloodpoints to get all the perks and then once you have all of those to get them all to tier 3. So how much do we / the devs want to reduce the grind, who knows really.
Either way long story short, I still don't think it justifies making any perk a baseline effect, just not on board with the idea of that in any capacity. If the grind was your main issue and that's why running BBQ is "mandatory" and we should make it baseline just talk about the issue at the source in the first place which in this case is the grind rather than going through all this extraneous mumbo jumbo and beating around the bush.
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@LALYTHIA I mean sure, agree to disagree I guess I can respect that, despite the fact I spent multiple paragraphs going over multiple different aspects of both perks explaining why they do not have clear cut counters and you just kinda went "Nah." But ok.. I can still live with the agree to disagree.
But if I were to take one more moment to focus on this bit before moving on, because I just can't live with that answer for the portion I wrote about DS because it doesn't work. You might stand there and reiterate "very clear very easy to execute counters" and for Hex: Noed I'll let it slide (agree to disagree and all that), but for DS I won't because my point was not that killers can't counter the perk by "not tunneling lol?"
My whole shtick behind the DS portion was, to put in layman's terms: Survivors have a counter for the counter. Survivors (especially and absolutely in high ranks) know that if a killer has the option they will deliberately go out of their way to avoid the DS, it wastes too much time for a killer otherwise. For the next short period of time these survivors are not responding with a "self preservation" mentality, they aren't slowly slinking off to a corner of the map to self care, they are immediately capitalizing on their brief period of invulnerability by literally being bold and working to finish generators that are over 90%, make normally unsafe unhooks completely safe with a combination of BT giving the killer absolutely no room to punish such a terrible play, take protection hits & / or bodyblock for teammates that are in legitimate danger of being downed and hooked especially in critical moments like running to an open exit (or god forbid a closed hatch because somebody brought a key for an early ez escape), Opening up an exit gate in your face, Cleansing a hex: totem in your face, going for a sabotage play while you're carrying someone on your shoulder in your face, the list goes on and ######### ON. And you still have the audacity to tell me that it is fine for survivors to play THIS aggressive because there's a TIMER?????
A survivor doesn't even necessarily need to be under the actual effect to pull any of these stunts off because merely acting like you're still under the protection of the DS timer is enough for killers to cower under your short 5'4 survivor butt. And at that point it's up to the killer and whether or not he's going to call your bluff, and as I've said before if he calls it wrong then he's completely #########.
This isn't even mentioning that a survivor can deliberately make interactions that make them far more open to being grabbed than downed normally. Everybody knows about the "survivor in a locker with DS tee hee" but a lot less seem to be aware of the fact this extends to anything and everything that causes a killer to grab a survivor. That means "Oh man, this survivor is about to finish a generator at 95% I have to do something about it immediately-" Whoops, accidentally grabbed, Decisive Strike, stunned for 5 seconds, that generator is done and she is long gone. "Oh man, this survivor is cleansing my Hex: Huntress Lullaby that I just got up to 5 stacks I have to do something about it immediately-" Whoops, accidentally grabbed, Decisive Strike, stunned for 50 seconds and she is long gone. "Oh man, she's opening a door when I have everybody on death hook I just need a little bit more pressure and I can't let her open that gate-" Whoops accidentally grabbed, Decisive Strike, STUNNED FOR 50 minutes the gate is open you've just lost all that pressure and 2 other people just escaped alongside her. This also extends to the many, many pallets and windows scattered across the maps, slow vaulting any of these can also net these unintended or forced grabs.
Now obviously, the answer here is "Just swing early and don't grab dummy?" Right? WRONG. The point here is that survivors will continually put themselves in interactions such as these where killers are more likely to grab you, all the time and let's face it killers are the ones under pressure to act quickly, instinctively, and on reflex here not survivors.
Perfect example: I was Oni on Rancid Abattoir, I caught a Jake who was working on the last generator and had it maybe around 90%, put him on a hook that due to rng was posted up right next to that generator barely 4m away, I turn around only to hear a survivor working on the opposite side from me and I round the corner of the gen immediately into an M1. I wasn't particularly going for a grab, but if I got one I wouldn't mind, turns out it was the injured Nea and I did grab her, also turned out that apparently completely unbeknownst to me because I was nowhere near her when she was unhooked (so not tunneling if I am to put it plainly) her DS timer had not run out. Hence why she completely ignored my presence, I ate the DS she finished the last gen during my 50 hour stun, triggering her Adrenaline and the Jake I had just hooked not 10 seconds before who also had Adrenaline.
So when you tell me DS has a "very clear, very easy to execute counter" I will use the same turn of phrase not when "this perk [is] abused to it's fullest extent" or as you basically put it earlier: "Nah."
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@LALYTHIA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1175859#Comment_1175859
Realistically the devs could rework any perk they want. Its their game. But the difference between Hex: Ruin and NOED is that Ruin was a huge barrier for new players and it impeded you from the very beginning of the match. Yes, it's still cleansible like NOED, but a ruin that you can't find and/or is accompanied by a tenacious killer is pretty swift death for new or less skilled players. I, personally, wasn't bothered by Ruin, but I see why it created an unbalanced barrier for new, random survivor groups.
NOED does feel like a crutch perk when it pops and you're on the survivor end, especially because it seems to be used by less skilled killers in a lot of cases, so you go the entire match winning chases and popping gens just to get insta-downed and face camped in end-game. [RIP] But unlike ruin, you have an entire match to eliminate it before it ever comes into play without it effecting your ability to do your objectives in order to escape. It's highly counterable if the group just makes an effort to cleanse. DS is very similar to NOED in that regard - avoiding DS is incredibly easy - don't tunnel. I like that NOED and DS are high risk/high reward. On both, you chance the opposite side making them obsolete...but in the right situation, they can turn the tide of a game. That's kind of exciting.
I would say no
While it is true you can "counter" both DS, and Noed in a certain sense it is not true counterplay, unlike having a hunch a killer is running Nurse's Calling so you begin to heal well out of Terror Radius, or BBQ & Chili incentivizing you to hide within the range of a hook survivor, inside a locker, or even positioning yourself behind a generator, or a survivor running Dead Hard so you make sure to time your swing so that it still catches them, or sprint burst so you know not to swing at all despite how close you get, there is no concrete counterplay for perks like DS and Noed.
Hex: NoED
What I mean by this is in the case of Noed, there are absolutely no indicators that they are running it, you could go out of your way to try and cleanse every totem on the map however this can be extremely difficult and nigh unrealistic due to multiple factors. For one and most obviously it is impossible to coordinate this kind of information as a solo survivor, you will only ever know for sure how many totems you've cleansed. You may stumble across another survivor cleansing a totem and you can add it to your mental count, or even go around keeping count of every destroyed pile of bones you find, but this is hardly reliable and more importantly: efficient. At this point you begin to waste time, which could prevent you from even completing the last gen in the first place.
This also leads to a second factor which is time efficiency, if you spend too much time going around cleansing every totem, keeping track of every pile of bones, yadda yadda yadda, if the trial is a close race between the killer and survivor, you choosing to try and find totems more often than not becomes more of a hindrance than using that time to repair a generator. This is why we would see survivors just grind and slog through pre-nerf Ruin, because looking for the actual totem or trying to get to it (especially if a killer is being protective of it) would only end up doing more harm than good because it would waste time. Now you're telling me to go around cleansing dull totems that have no use (unless you're on the BP grind) wasting time, putting the completion of generators and thus your own teammates and yourself at risk especially in matches where the killer is putting a great amount of pressure, every single match on the off chance the killer is running Noed?
Third and lastly, why does it waste so much time in the first place? Because some totems are just impossible to find to begin with, depending on the map you can be absolutely screwed as soon as you spawn in because you never found the 1 dull totem in an obscure corner of the backwater swamp. It is simply not viable to go out and seek out every totem on every map because they can be notoriously difficult to find, though veterans will be aware of the more notoriously well hidden RNG spots a totem can spawn such as next to a fire barrel, masking the audio, or inside one of the tall hedges on the Badham preschool maps, it can still feel like you've combed an entire location and come up with zilch.
Hex: NOED Concluding
So sure, if all three of these conditions have been met in the best case scenario: You're on a "good" map that doesn't have too many really bad spots to find a totem, even if you're on a traditionally "good" map there aren't any totems hiding in cheeky spots like inside tall hedges, or next to a fire barrel, you're either an SWF or somehow coordinate with your entire team how many totems you've cleansed as a solo or just keep track on your own individually (somehow), and the killer isn't good enough that he's not capitalizing on all this time you've spent not doing generators to apply a significant amount of pressure and deal a lot of damage to the survivors in said trial. Then yeah, sure, it's "counterable". But when I put it that way all of a sudden it doesn't sound the same does it? Now it's no longer it's "counterable" it's "it is counterable in specific circumstances" which is just complete bull.
Decisive Strike
As for DS the issue isn't quite as spiderwebbed and it's a lot more simple, the popular "counter" method is just "Don't tunnel? Lol". The killer obviously will try not to tunnel however, survivors know this and will actively play aggressive in such a way that forces a killer to tunnel or completely concede a certain amount of pressure. A killer can deliberately go out of their way to chase someone else off the unhook, and then out of nowhere the same survivor comes running in to take a protection hit. The killer was clearly chasing someone else, not tunneling, and yet still managed to down the same survivor either purely by circumstance or because that survivor forced him to. At this point the killer is left wondering "has it been 60 seconds yet? Do I pick her up now? .... Now? How about now..?" forced into a guessing game that can either get you an easy hook, or lose you an entire match.
Now, one might read this and think "one hypothetical scenario does not an overpowered perk make" but this was not my point, my point was told at the very beginning "actively play aggressive in such a way that forces a killer to tunnel or completely concede a certain amount of pressure". It is extremely easy for a survivor to force the killer into a situation where they quite literally don't have any other option. It allows them to be bold, make bad mistakes, and still completely get away with it because they get the magnetic repulsing forcefield that is DS, they can be finishing repairs on a generator in your face and you are not allowed to do anything about it because "DS".
(Decisive Strike) Concluding
These perks are not fun, they aren't skillful, they are hardly ever high risk, and they are not exciting, if anything they are only to those who run them and enjoy getting second chance ez wins. You'll never see my eyes widen, be genuinely surprised, and maybe even think "I did not see that coming" when hit by a DS, instead you'll hear me sigh and think about the previous five matches that I've seen this perk be abused to it's fullest extent.
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I feel like this is the same situation with Hex: Ruin, it may be super powerful a real game changer that turns the tides of games, and NOBODY (killers) wants to see it changed. At the same time though, it is absolutely unfun and cheap for survivors, and perks that are unfun or cheap for either side are typically nerfed or rework, even massively wide spread used perks like Hex: Ruin, a perk which almost everyone ran and the devs knew they would see resistance for changing. Hex: Ruin was used way more often than Noed was or even is now (Noed usage has gone up since Ruin rework)
So what would stop the devs from nerfing or reworking Noed? Not much imo, since it's one of the main controversial / problem perks that are left in the wake of the Ruin rework. Now when people read this they might think "Bruh, so you're telling me all the problem perks are killer perks!? #########??" and that is not what I'm saying at all. The change to Ruin is the turn of a new decade (literally) where in all likelihood all problem perks will see some changes. This means inevtiably, Noed, but at the same time it also means DS which will probably see a second change on top of the original because it is also a controversial / problem perk.