Ryuhi
Ryuhi
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I feel like they should be thrown underhand to match their current trajectory, threw me off a ton at first.
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while that sounds neat on paper, it opens up an absurd amount of SWF trolling potential. Thats the unfortunate issue with improving the Fight category as you define it: When survivors know they have a safety net, they turn their attention toward overpowering the killer. The sad truth is that neat ideas like that would be abused to hell and back, ultimately raising the minimum skill requirement for most killers than it already is. For now, I think the general consensus is that if you want more ability to fight back, you should try similar games like Last Year or F13. It just simply doesn't fit into the core dynamic of DBD's gameplay.
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@Cymer said:
@Najemniczkas said:
Survivors only? You mean survivor mains only, or do you count people who play both?
CJsDBD said:How are they broken? Survivor main and not sure what you mean
Totem getting broken within 15 sec of game. Sht totem spawns (next to gen, shining like a freaking lighthouses, asking survs to get broken). Survivors spawning next to lit totems. Hill spawnpoints.
I would love to hear the survivors perspective on that matter and how they would love to see the totems changed for a more fun and challenging gameplay.
It is just funny how the first post is pure obliviousness about the issues with totems.
I know the views of killers, they all calling for a rework, better spawing points and some respawn mechanic.I was not prepared that someone in the game could say, they are fine the way they are.
Would love if he could elaborate a bit, how totems are not broken.I play both but I'm primarily survivor, and in terms of disappointments with totems in their current form, I feel it goes down to splitting survivor attention, turning survivors into cowards, and there not being enough. Both are going to sound weird from a survivor perspective, but hear me out:
The best way to beat Hex: Ruin is to work through it, and be good at skill checks. If you have no idea where the totem is and are working on a gen when you start getting the red skill checks, just power through them. Your chances of finding the totem faster than the progress you would gain by staying on the gen are low. It causes players to split away from their objective for the sake of trying to make a play. I understand why they do it (especially since M1 simulator is not exactly fun for anyone,) but it hurts the team's efficiency when they don't find it quickly. Looking for it while heading to a gen (or even during a chase) are perfectly valid, but I can't stand when people see a zap and run off like the generator bit their fingers or something.
Other Hex totems CAN be important to chase after you know their effects: namely Devour Hope. By the time you know those tokens are stacking, The killer is getting pretty swole with it. I really like this dynamic and wish it could be improved even more (as survivor its suspenseful as hell in a good way) and as survivor I usually have the opposite problem: people get scared when they see it, and DON'T go anywhere looking for totems for fear of getting one shotted. They immediately act like they're up against a tier 3 Myers and curl into a ball in the corner weeping softly while other players are checking all of the most common totem spawns hoping to find it before they get mori'd.
Lastly, there just aren't enough totems. Having few of them is great for getting rid of NOED, sure, but they also make great BP bonuses if you have spare time and don't want to BM the killer just to get a bit in that category. If the killer is bad or doesn't really chase you the whole match, totems suddenly become the optimal way to even get anything in the category. I know sometimes survivors will go for dull totems instead of gens at the very start, just to be less likely to be the first chase for the killer. The spawns are also pretty commonly placed on most maps, you can almost always find at least 3/5 in a single lap around the map. Some maps guard them pretty well, but ALL of them should to increase accomplishment more than getting to hold M1 for a bit more a different set of points.
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@LordziPL said:
No shining totem. (Hidden Hex Totem) Increase from 5 to 7 totems. No spawning next to gen. 0% chance to spawn next to totem. Nerf hill spawnpoints. Skillchecks, increase time of breaking 25%a combination of these would be great, just not all of them together :chuffed: Also I agree with not getting a thousand notifications on the side of the screen when a hex is in play, the effects should speak for themselves without sending everyone on a hunt because of a bubble on the right side of their screen.
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you don't have to be a very good killer to be able to follow scratch marks and blood trails for <20 seconds... Not to mention if you don't have Urban + Iron Will, you're probably not going to be able to sneak away in that short of a time period either, let alone do so and still be able to start noisily mending.
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@Freudentrauma said:
Right. Because this game won't get more frustrating or harder to balance, if Devs would have to consider the aspect of survivor vs. survivor as well.We already have a survivor vs survivor perk, its called WGLF :chuffed:
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@Master said:
@Ryuhi said:
bad legions will "break" chases just to force the survivor to not be able to continue running/mend. Its similar to how Lithe sometimes decides to not work because it doesnt think you're in a chase.
You mean he breaks the chase, baits the survivor into mending and then he comes again to waste a few second of the timer, then repeat?
Yeah sounds like a totally viable strategy...... if you wanna lose the game
No, he breaks the chase, then slowly follows their scratch marks/blood without actually looking at them, causing the wound timer to decrease while still being very closeby. Then the survivor is forced to mend right near him, so he just turns around and hits them. Most people do this by moonwalking, but all you need to do is not maintain regain LoS of the survivor while following them.
Unfortunately the game has no way to detect when its happening and when legion just can't find the survivor, so its borderline an exploit but not one directly condemned by the devs so it's allowed. There are ways it can be adjusted like having his TR affect the deep wounds bleedout, but as it stands now it's the most guaranteed down in the game, even though its directly opposed to his intended playstyle.
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bad legions will "break" chases just to force the survivor to not be able to continue running/mend. Its similar to how Lithe sometimes decides to not work because it doesnt think you're in a chase.
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If you don't believe me about the hit protection thing, try it in KYF mode. or just get a swf together and chain heal in the exit gate while the killer throws hatchets or something at you. The game will detect when you're getting stacks for the same event "too fast" and not grant it until you change its parameters. I havent tested it completely, but I believe shielding different people can override that. The protection event is kinda buggy as it is though so its hard to narrow down.
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@Tsulan said:
Then you would have seen people disconnect.I get 3 stacks as survivor if I unhook, get hit and downed next to that injured survivor.
Now, please show me a killer who can get 3 stacks in 30 seconds.
no, you don't. there is a cooldown on the hit protection event for it, so you would only get 2. The only way you would get 3 would be if you unhooked the survivor, got hit while the killer was bringing over someone else, then blinded him with a firecracker/flashlight (or somehow got a pallet stun) all while he's still carrying someone. Not only that, but if your teammates DC, that gives survivors less chances to get stacks too, and even less of a chance of getting a score worthy of even multiplying.
Lets share your optimism though. we'll say one DC, and give a score average based off of an expected range of outcomes.
8-15k - 4 stacks: 16k-30k BP.
You can get 8k by maxing a single category, so its a safe baseline for a minimum in a losing game for a survivor. With a DC the chances of winning are reduced drastically, so this is a pretty fair assumption. The 15k is an upper range: it could be anything from actually winning due to a bad killer, or losing but still playing very well.
meanwhile, for killer:
15k-28k - 3 stacks: 2625 - 4900 BP
With a 3 man game, a killer would be hard pressed not to get at least a decent score, even if he doesn't manage to get a 3k (or even a 2k) 15k is a pretty good baseline for a killer playing poorly, and 28k is used as a high range because there is still a bit of potential lost, even with the quitter bonus.
If you want to start to put the math into 2 people quitting, it actually becomes even more disparate, since the survivors are pretty much guaranteed to get near nothing, while the killer can essentially take their time and get as many points as they choose before ending the game.
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Huntress Lullaby is kinda terrible in even middle ranks, and is vastly outclassed by hex ruin (which shares its same weakness, but doesnt require stacks and has a MUCH greater chance of slowing down gens.)
Territorial imperative is bad for her because her walk speed is so slow she pretty much needs to camp a perimeter around the basement if she wants to be able to both proc it and get back in time, and its not a great perk in general (only really works on specific builds.)
As for the bloodlust one, its flawed in that it requires chases to go on for an extended period of time to even activate, and its effect can essentially be replicated by just learning how/when to mindgame with moonwalks. A good huntress is usually going to go for their shots at places where survivors can't dodge (while vaulting, right after dropping a pallet, etc) or at times where they have a tight window of opportunity the survivor won't be able to react to in time (strafing by a window, cornfield, etc) So the lack of stain has no real effect there.
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@Tsulan said:
Ryuhi said:I should mention I'm a survivor main and absolute garbage at killer, but I still get stacks of BBQ more easily than i do WGLF. Mainly because I don't abuse the idiot bullshit ways to get stacks of the latter, and just play regularly when trying to get the former.
Oh cool, a rank 20 killer who explains how easy it is to get BBQ stacks.
Not like survivors disconnect and there's no way in getting those stacks.Rank 4 actually, but I know that I've failed upwards into the red ranks and don't consider myself as good as people who put in the effort with the majority of the killers. Good try tho!
Its kinda sad when people excuse being modest or humble for being inexperienced.
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@Tsulan said:
Ryuhi said:@Tsulan said:
It's not the primary way. Just one of many ways. Killer has only one way to get stacks. Which is even limited to one stack per survivor.
You guys want even more ways to get stacks as survivor. With no work or risk involved. While it's already way to easy, at least compared to killer.
Many ways. aka literally 3. If you actually read the posts, you'd see that I'm directly opposed to them having anything to do with gens, and more to do with boldness and altruism events (even making new ones to suit smarter play.) The killer has zero competition in getting their stacks, and they also have a higher average to multiply them off of (especially since the survival category is only trumped by the pig's deviousness category right now in terms of sucking.) BBQ also has an auxiliary use (which again, I and many others do NOT want or expect to WGLF.) which even helps with accumulating stacks by helping find other survivors.
But back to the competition point, that is the real reason anyone, survivor or killer, wants to see it change. It leads to very bad games filled with very bad plays because of people trying to get stacks. Unsafe unhooks, as we both agreed, are an easy way to get TWO stacks, and covers literally 2 out of 3 methods in one swoop. Thats promoting bad plays. Something like leading a killer away from someone who was just unhooked, and keeping them distracted long enough for them to get to safety and fully healed? thats far more worthy of a stack then just running into a killer hoisting a downed survivor and them giving you a pat on the butt as you run by.
Unhooking
Getting hit next to a injured survivor
Getting hit next to a downed survivor
Getting hit while the killer carries a survivor
Flashlight save
Pallet save a carried survivorMaybe I'm bad at math.
you are, because you're taking the same exact scenarios and trying to inflate them.
Unhooking
Taking a hit for another survivor
Making a stun save.if you want to be that dishonest about it, you should at least add things like "taking a chainsaw for another survivor" "Getting deep wounds while protecting another survivor" or even "Getting in between the spicy romance of the pig's armblade and Dwight's back"
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I should mention I'm a survivor main and absolute garbage at killer, but I still get stacks of BBQ more easily than i do WGLF. Mainly because I don't abuse the idiot bullshit ways to get stacks of the latter, and just play regularly when trying to get the former.
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@Tsulan said:
It's not the primary way. Just one of many ways. Killer has only one way to get stacks. Which is even limited to one stack per survivor.You guys want even more ways to get stacks as survivor. With no work or risk involved. While it's already way to easy, at least compared to killer.
Many ways. aka literally 3. If you actually read the posts, you'd see that I'm directly opposed to them having anything to do with gens, and more to do with boldness and altruism events (even making new ones to suit smarter play.) The killer has zero competition in getting their stacks, and they also have a higher average to multiply them off of (especially since the survival category is only trumped by the pig's deviousness category right now in terms of sucking.) BBQ also has an auxiliary use (which again, I and many others do NOT want or expect to WGLF.) which even helps with accumulating stacks by helping find other survivors.
But back to the competition point, that is the real reason anyone, survivor or killer, wants to see it change. It leads to very bad games filled with very bad plays because of people trying to get stacks. Unsafe unhooks, as we both agreed, are an easy way to get TWO stacks, and covers literally 2 out of 3 methods in one swoop. Thats promoting bad plays. Something like leading a killer away from someone who was just unhooked, and keeping them distracted long enough for them to get to safety and fully healed? thats far more worthy of a stack then just running into a killer hoisting a downed survivor and them giving you a pat on the butt as you run by.
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@HatCreature said:
@Ryuhi said:
the perk is good on Huntress, who is upper mid tier and considered fairly viable. It's also good on doctor, who is considered a much lower tier and it covers one of his bigger counterplays, potentially making him more viable overall. TBH I think its a fairly nice addition, even if its definitely a more niche perk. Then again, it feels like people sleep on Discordance a lot too, even though it gives the killer a lot of information each time it pops.as for the new survivor's perks... breakdown is a bit of a super situational perk too. people try to combine it with sabo squadding a corner of the map to make it fairly safe, but it can just as easily be used to create a slug defense situation because of it if the killer plays things right (especially if they happen to have deerstalker and/or sloppy butcher.)
Aftercare is good, but again situational. You need to get the unhooks to benefit from it fully (or at least be unhooked by someone using it to get it partially) and it resets once you get hooked. That said, its also redundant for SWFs who use comms and already have that info anyway. Good but not amazing.
Distortion is also great but can be disarmed, which is a weird twist for a survivor perk. Since its window is up to 10 seconds, there are killers who can burn through them easily without even realizing it: Wraith with his "reveal within X range while cloaked" or the Pig's and Myers' equivalent addons are good examples.
Even just going off of things available to all killers, lets say the killer has bitter murmur and bbq and chilli... you complete the gen 11 seconds before the killer hooks someone? 2 tokens gone in less than a minute. Hopped in a locker vs someone using the afforementioned Iron maiden perk? there's a token too. Did you self care too close to someone who has nurses' calling? Minus one. Its actually a really good perk overall, but its hardly perfect. And like most of the more potent perks, it becomes useless once used up.
I would say Aftercare is good if you're good, if you're sneaky or are just good at chases then this perk is super helpful. I've won many matches with it. Distortion is an ok perk, your aforementioned downsides is why. Breakdown is situational but it's a more common one than you'd think, sure you get unhooked and the hook breaks well soemone else might get downed near that hook and the Killer has to work harder to find a different hook or maybe there isn't one. You get farmed well the hook is gone and bam, more time for you buddies to help you if they're good. If you have Sabo and Aftercare from the dude you saved you could potentially break all nearby hooks while that guy or someone else is being chased. It's not a game winner but it helps.
The Survivor perks we got were great, they're balanced and powerful to use on many builds and even though they are situational they aren't a losing game if you don;t get use out of them. The Killer having that problem can definitley mean a losing game. Legion's best perk is Discordance, Mad Grit is a gimmick yeah but it's a gimmick that works and can be used effectively in a build. Iron Maiden is not like that. I only have Iron Maiden on Legion right now so I can't test it with anyone else but when I finally get it on someone I'll be testing it out more because I want to use it and I want to be wrong about this. But right now it is a crappy perk and should get fixing just like a lot of other perks are crap and need fixing.
Just remember that all 3 of the Hag's perks are Hex totems, and all 3 of the Wraith's are just tracking help. 2 out of 3 of the huntress' perks are considered pretty much useless, but especially on her given her movement speed. Its not exactly unfounded for a killer's base perks to not match them very well.
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@Tsulan said:
DwightsLifeMatters said:
Tsulan said:
Ryuhi said:@Tsulan said:
Am I the only one who thinks WGLF should only award points from unhooking different survivors, just like BBQ does?
Right now it favors unsafe unhooks.
Its already hard enough to get stacks, why would you want to make it harder? This would even cause people to ignore unhooks because they'd be wasting their positioning to be able to secure saves that WILL grant them stacks. There are much better alternatives, my favorite of which is to REQUIRE that it is a safe unhook, but grant a second stack if you heal that survivor to full within a certain period of time. All they would need to do is give it a decent window of time like We'll Make It and it could make the perk a lot more reliable. Another suggestion I've had in the past is to make an event for drawing a killer as far away from an unhook as possible, giving teammates a chance to get the unhook and full heal without being anywhere near the killer's TR for the duration. There are plenty of ways to improve the system without trying to make it parallel to BBQ&C.
As it stands currently, the best strategy is to wait until the killer is just outside of their TR, then unhook with your back to the killer. that way when they inevitably come back, you'll take the hit instead of the hooked person, giving you two stacks for a bad play. either that or using BT when they're pretty much just outside of distance to be able to grab interrupt, which is also a bad play that effectively grants stacks. Its bad enough people do things like try to bodyblock when there isnt enough time to wiggle free, just to take a slug and get the stack.
TL;DR instead of making it harder to get stacks overall, they should make it so that smarter plays can also get stacks, and make it harder for dumb plays to.
Stopped reading after "stacks are hard to get"
Killer stacks are hard to get. But survivor stacks? Just move away from the gen...U know that u only get stacks if ur teammates get downed like chickens right? And also only if ur faster for the unhook than the other mates, but still patience enuf so it doesn't lead to farm? Cuz if u farm, u most likely won't escape at the end, an that results to even less points as survivors already get.
I'm not saying that getting WGLF stacks is harder than BBQ&C, but saying that getting survivor stacks is ez pz (without farming) is pretty biased thoApparently I know that perk better than you.
Since you also get stacks by getting hit near someone who's injured. Or if you do a flashlight save.As survivor I have to run to the freshly hooked survivor, unhook with BT, get hit by the camping killer, and got 2 stacks without getting downed.
Killer needs to track, chase, down and hook 2 different survivors.
Yeah, survivor is so much harder
facepalmSince you're using absurd hypotheticals to suit your needs, how about this one:
Hag has make your choice, wins a chase, puts traps near the hook. teammate sets off traps after unhooking, hag gets the free exposed down. boom, 2 stacks.
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@Tsulan said:
Ryuhi said:@Tsulan said:
Ryuhi said:
@Tsulan said: Am I the only one who thinks WGLF should only award points from unhooking different survivors, just like BBQ does? Right now it favors unsafe unhooks. Its already hard enough to get stacks, why would you want to make it harder? This would even cause people to ignore unhooks because they'd be wasting their positioning to be able to secure saves that WILL grant them stacks. There are much better alternatives, my favorite of which is to REQUIRE that it is a safe unhook, but grant a second stack if you heal that survivor to full within a certain period of time. All they would need to do is give it a decent window of time like We'll Make It and it could make the perk a lot more reliable. Another suggestion I've had in the past is to make an event for drawing a killer as far away from an unhook as possible, giving teammates a chance to get the unhook and full heal without being anywhere near the killer's TR for the duration. There are plenty of ways to improve the system without trying to make it parallel to BBQ&C. As it stands currently, the best strategy is to wait until the killer is just outside of their TR, then unhook with your back to the killer. that way when they inevitably come back, you'll take the hit instead of the hooked person, giving you two stacks for a bad play. either that or using BT when they're pretty much just outside of distance to be able to grab interrupt, which is also a bad play that effectively grants stacks. Its bad enough people do things like try to bodyblock when there isnt enough time to wiggle free, just to take a slug and get the stack. TL;DR instead of making it harder to get stacks overall, they should make it so that smarter plays can also get stacks, and make it harder for dumb plays to. Stopped reading after "stacks are hard to get"
Killer stacks are hard to get. But survivor stacks? Just move away from the gen...
yeah, and when there's 2 p3 claudettes popping a squat right next to the person who just got hooked, your chances are reaaaaaal good to get those stacks by just "moving away from the gen."
Kindred isnt baseline, so the only way solo survivors are going to know someone else is going for the save is to either hope the person hooked has it, or just assume someone else is going for it unless they actively know where the other players are (on the same gen, for instance.) Not only this, but an unhook grants 1k, safe unhook adds another 500, and a full heal adds another 400... ON TOP of getting at least 1 WGLF stack. all in far less time than it takes to complete a gen for 1250. This causes a vulture effect where people essentially flat out fight over unhooks, especially since they already committed to leaving their gen to get there.
Unhooks are not the only way to get stacks
no #########, but it IS the primary way to. Taking hits for other survivors can be very touchy with proccing, as it often requires you to be directly on top of them (i.e the attack would have made contact with the other survivor if not for your hitbox absorbing it first.) This means that getting hit while unhooking, healing someone, or just straight up running in front of a killer carrying a teammate "to bodyblock" are the main ways to activate that method. Unhooking is by far the primary intended method for getting stacks, especially since it has the least danger ironically (and can even cause two stacks in the afforementioned scenarios.)
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the perk is good on Huntress, who is upper mid tier and considered fairly viable. It's also good on doctor, who is considered a much lower tier and it covers one of his bigger counterplays, potentially making him more viable overall. TBH I think its a fairly nice addition, even if its definitely a more niche perk. Then again, it feels like people sleep on Discordance a lot too, even though it gives the killer a lot of information each time it pops.
as for the new survivor's perks... breakdown is a bit of a super situational perk too. people try to combine it with sabo squadding a corner of the map to make it fairly safe, but it can just as easily be used to create a slug defense situation because of it if the killer plays things right (especially if they happen to have deerstalker and/or sloppy butcher.)
Aftercare is good, but again situational. You need to get the unhooks to benefit from it fully (or at least be unhooked by someone using it to get it partially) and it resets once you get hooked. That said, its also redundant for SWFs who use comms and already have that info anyway. Good but not amazing.
Distortion is also great but can be disarmed, which is a weird twist for a survivor perk. Since its window is up to 10 seconds, there are killers who can burn through them easily without even realizing it: Wraith with his "reveal within X range while cloaked" or the Pig's and Myers' equivalent addons are good examples.
Even just going off of things available to all killers, lets say the killer has bitter murmur and bbq and chilli... you complete the gen 11 seconds before the killer hooks someone? 2 tokens gone in less than a minute. Hopped in a locker vs someone using the afforementioned Iron maiden perk? there's a token too. Did you self care too close to someone who has nurses' calling? Minus one. Its actually a really good perk overall, but its hardly perfect. And like most of the more potent perks, it becomes useless once used up.
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@HatCreature said:
@Ryuhi said:
@HatCreature said:
@Ryuhi said:
you're not understanding my point: you want this perk to be much more powerful than it should be. 25 seconds would almost be half of two other perks that have actual downsides to them. The only downside to this one is that a survivor is not likely to proc it multiple times. Its still possible though.You really want to force a longer exposed duration? remove the aura function, and require the killer be further away. or make it a hex totem. If you're not willing to do either of those, then you effectively want it to be stronger than every other exposed inducing perk in the game with less punishment than any of them.
also as to your comment about how it scares survivors a single time, welcome to Haunted Grounds. Once its procced, most people just hide for a minute and then resume their gen rushes and pallet loops. and the perk never comes back, and has zero other effects. and yet it can get a LOT done in a very small amount of time if things work out in the killer's favor with when it goes off.
Haunted Grounds give you 60 sec to look for someone, this has 15. I can see your point now, it was not clear at all because you weren't going in that direction until the very end. I get that other Exposed things have requirements, this has no requirement other than a Survivor trying to hide, it punishes them for hiding, why not go with it? Or, just take out the Exposed because it's weird and has no requirement that is justified to have a useable Exposed effect.
Giving it a distance and taking away the Aura makes it even less useful because you don't know which locker and you could be close to it. MYC is hook oriented and you know which hook, you don't know which locker and then it only has the tiers of locker opening speed and what good is that on anyone but Huntress?
Making it a totem and giving it 60 sec, why? Just don't hide in lockers and you will never be Exposed, get closer to the person being hooked, hide behind a Gen, you know use every strategy against BBQ because hiding in a locker is only useful against BBQ or hiding when in a chase but you don't bring in this perk for that reason because it may never happen and you screwed yourself for bringing it in. I mean it would be cool but why waste your perk slot for something that has a one time thing, maybe. And that's my point it's a one time thing, HG is a one time thing but it's a totem and it's a 60 sec trap they willingly put on themselves knowing full well it COULD be HG. They don't know you have Iron Maiden and when they do they just stop going in.
All your suggestions make it weaker, my 25 sec, or 45, or even taking away the Exposed makes it more viable for every Killer and actually useful. You haven't even commented on taking away the Exposed, is that so overpowered as well? Give it a cooldown of 60 sec so it only shows the first person who leaves the locker and not everyone who exited the locker because of BBQ.
The point of my suggestions were that you are making unreasonable requests, especially considering how many downsides are present with other Exposed status perks. They actually were the EXACT downsides to those already existing perks. The fact that you consider them too weak means that you are not trying to balance this perk around the other existing ones, you simply want it to be more powerful so you can abuse it. Thats not how balancing gameplay works.
I can see you were making a point but those downsides are not weak on the perks you mentioned. Having the distance for the hook is reasonable, it's fair. A totem is a totem, they break and it's meant to break. Both original perks yes have requirements and give you time to chase, this does not have requirements like those to warrant the prolonged Exposed timer for a chase. So take out Exposed and keep the Auras.
The reason its harsh for MYC is because you can't see who actually does the unhook. SWFs will often have a "decoy" when they know you have the perk, and have them lead you away from both the person unhooked (who gets healed while you lead the chase) and the person who procced MYC. Even without that level of coordination, you're still guessing that the person you see in that area is the one who did the unhook. You have zero way to confirm it until you hit them and they either get downed, or don't.
In regards to totems, I didn't even mention Devour hope, the biggest risk reward of them all. you need to get 3 stacks before you even get your exposed status, and yet it is lit right from the very start. It can get disabled before it does a single effect. However it can also lead to essentially a mid game noed, and eventually enable flat out moris. But it has a very strong downside in how vulnerable it is due to the single totem while needing a buildup (AND survivors getting notifications once its going)
Iron Maiden has no such risks or real penalties to it, and such its rewards are more modest. They are there, but they are modest. While it might seem less useful other than certain builds and niche situations, it can't be disarmed, and it has no real downsides to its prerequisites.
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I would not recommend it vs the pig at all, since her ambush is currently hot garbage and almost never used outside of the first sneak attack of the game, or a pallet loop mindgame... that said, I have seen it happen before. If you wanted to try out the timing and/or punishing it with iron maiden, you'll definitely want to so a KYF with someone to get the timings down on either side.
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The most effective way to end tunneling is one nobody really would want to do: make it so that gens start with painfully longer repair times, and have them get repaired faster each time a survivor dies. Until something like that happens, killers will tunnel survivors and survivors will tunnel gens.
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@HatCreature said:
@Ryuhi said:
you're not understanding my point: you want this perk to be much more powerful than it should be. 25 seconds would almost be half of two other perks that have actual downsides to them. The only downside to this one is that a survivor is not likely to proc it multiple times. Its still possible though.You really want to force a longer exposed duration? remove the aura function, and require the killer be further away. or make it a hex totem. If you're not willing to do either of those, then you effectively want it to be stronger than every other exposed inducing perk in the game with less punishment than any of them.
also as to your comment about how it scares survivors a single time, welcome to Haunted Grounds. Once its procced, most people just hide for a minute and then resume their gen rushes and pallet loops. and the perk never comes back, and has zero other effects. and yet it can get a LOT done in a very small amount of time if things work out in the killer's favor with when it goes off.
Haunted Grounds give you 60 sec to look for someone, this has 15. I can see your point now, it was not clear at all because you weren't going in that direction until the very end. I get that other Exposed things have requirements, this has no requirement other than a Survivor trying to hide, it punishes them for hiding, why not go with it? Or, just take out the Exposed because it's weird and has no requirement that is justified to have a useable Exposed effect.
Giving it a distance and taking away the Aura makes it even less useful because you don't know which locker and you could be close to it. MYC is hook oriented and you know which hook, you don't know which locker and then it only has the tiers of locker opening speed and what good is that on anyone but Huntress?
Making it a totem and giving it 60 sec, why? Just don't hide in lockers and you will never be Exposed, get closer to the person being hooked, hide behind a Gen, you know use every strategy against BBQ because hiding in a locker is only useful against BBQ or hiding when in a chase but you don't bring in this perk for that reason because it may never happen and you screwed yourself for bringing it in. I mean it would be cool but why waste your perk slot for something that has a one time thing, maybe. And that's my point it's a one time thing, HG is a one time thing but it's a totem and it's a 60 sec trap they willingly put on themselves knowing full well it COULD be HG. They don't know you have Iron Maiden and when they do they just stop going in.
All your suggestions make it weaker, my 25 sec, or 45, or even taking away the Exposed makes it more viable for every Killer and actually useful. You haven't even commented on taking away the Exposed, is that so overpowered as well? Give it a cooldown of 60 sec so it only shows the first person who leaves the locker and not everyone who exited the locker because of BBQ.
The point of my suggestions were that you are making unreasonable requests, especially considering how many downsides are present with other Exposed status perks. They actually were the EXACT downsides to those already existing perks. The fact that you consider them too weak means that you are not trying to balance this perk around the other existing ones, you simply want it to be more powerful so you can abuse it. Thats not how balancing gameplay works.
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Locker jukes are absolutely a thing against certain killers, since they can't do the grab animation while performing other actions, and sometimes have a longer recovery. Thats not to say it always works, but it can sometimes be the difference between an instadown and a single hit, or even in the case of tombstone myers a hook and a touch of death. The most common one is for the nurse, since she can't open lockers during a chain blink, but there are also times it can be used to avoid a chainsawing billy and buy just enough time for him to have to go for an m1 instead of the instadown saw he would have otherwise gotten. If a Pig is doing her lunge attack it can be used to dodge that as well. Even legion it can be used as a huge risk/reward hail mary if you suspect his frenzy is going to run out, especially if you're uninjured.
That said, it has absolutely zero effect on a lot of m1 killers, since they'll just grab you anyway. The trick is when they have a power that overrides their ability to interrupt grab while it is active.
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you're not understanding my point: you want this perk to be much more powerful than it should be. 25 seconds would almost be half of two other perks that have actual downsides to them. The only downside to this one is that a survivor is not likely to proc it multiple times. Its still possible though.
You really want to force a longer exposed duration? remove the aura function, and require the killer be further away. or make it a hex totem. If you're not willing to do either of those, then you effectively want it to be stronger than every other exposed inducing perk in the game with less punishment than any of them.
also as to your comment about how it scares survivors a single time, welcome to Haunted Grounds. Once its procced, most people just hide for a minute and then resume their gen rushes and pallet loops. and the perk never comes back, and has zero other effects. and yet it can get a LOT done in a very small amount of time if things work out in the killer's favor with when it goes off.
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you honestly don't think a full minute is absurd for an effect that requires zero interaction from the killer? even make your choice requires they be far enough to not be able to visibly see who proced it, and once haunted ground is procced and its minute gone it is an empty perk slot. if you wanted to make any changes to it and have them be reasonable, it would be either not notifying the survivor its active, or extending the duration of the aura. Extending the exposed state a small amount would be fine, but no more than an additional 5-10 seconds.
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@HatCreature said:
In case anyone reading this thread doesn't read my paragraphs here's a smaller version of an improvement.Get rid of Exposed, this way they will keep using lockers and the perk stays useful throughout the match.
Or Buff Exposed to 60 sec to warrant the ability of Exposing them. This way they won't use lockers anymore and you have a chance at instadowning them.
like i said before, there are other perks which do almost literally nothing. This perk at least has purposes and synergies with specific builds/killers. Perks like Surveillance, Slippery Meat, and Prove Thyself have absolutely none. Other perks like Lithe would be great if they actually worked properly, but there are bugs that prevent them from working consistently. Taking a new perk you don't like and demanding an absurd change to it is not productive.
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@HatCreature said:
Now that we have more than just Ryuhi and I the consensus is still saying that it is worthless for what it does for the most part. The Exposed is too crap to have so either remove it mor make it better. Scaring Survivors from lockers is fine but if you manage to scare all 4 by scaring just 1 because they're SWF means you accomplished your goal and now your perk is useless and does nothing. Yes you can say the same about totems but those are totems this is a situational perk.The information is fine, you know where one of 4 Survivors are and that's awesome, you can hunt them down or just ignore them. But since it has Exposed it forces the Survivor to not use lockers anymore and incentivises you to hunt them, but it doesn't last long enough. Either get rid of it or buff it. The perk would go great with BBQ and Chilli if theyy weren't Exposed, everyone who was hiding in lockers would be revealed and you can continue hunting down everyone who left a locker every single time you hook someone. But because they are Exposed you don't get to do that because they won't do it anymore.
or you could leave it as is and just... not use it? like everyone else does with any perks they disagree with?
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@Blueberry said:
@Ryuhi said:
The comment about the button was that they will think that you're right near them, or even risk not knowing that you ARE near them. Monitor and Abuse is absurdly good on legion, so mindgames about his actual position can make survivors play very careful/scared, or power through it and ignore when he's actually very close. Its similar mindgames to the wraith's global bell addon: people are forced to ignore it due to its frequency, and thats how he gets it to work in his favor.So you're essentially referring to ONLY a scare factor in this all, not actually any sort of strength of viability.
for legion specifically? yes. outside of the aforementioned locker juke scenarios i mentioned earlier, which most survivors don't even think to try anyway.
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The comment about the button was that they will think that you're right near them, or even risk not knowing that you ARE near them. Monitor and Abuse is absurdly good on legion, so mindgames about his actual position can make survivors play very careful/scared, or power through it and ignore when he's actually very close. Its similar mindgames to the wraith's global bell addon: people are forced to ignore it due to its frequency, and thats how he gets it to work in his favor.
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try using urban ONLY to evade a killer, and not just "to be hard to see from a distance." It has actual good uses a lot of the time, but if you constantly hold crouch simply because you have no reason not to, then it'll make dropping it that much harder.
Iron Will is a similarly great stealth perk, and helps with multiple killer's abilities.
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@Plu said:
It's fine the way it is honestly, imo this perk is a huge waste of time and works against you more than you think nowadays.depends on the killer. Vs the wraith it is 100% free if you can sit under a pallet while doing it, since he cant even bodyblock the pallet activation while cloaked. And it can wake you up vs freddy. It can even be used to distract killers when you know they have nurses. Above all else, it forces killers to have to commit to chases all the way to a down rather than spreading pressure around, which opens them up to gen rushing.
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no, i dont agree with that because it prevents them from being ABLE to use lockers. there's a difference between people not taking an option and denying their ability to do so. If you really think the duration for the exposed effect is weak, use the iridescent button, and get a frenzy hit on someone else after you get the notification. guaranteed to make em ######### their pants at least once.
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@The_Crusader said:
ShyN3ko said:After 1 game:
"Ok, lets use Franklin's Demise".
My game is always rly loud, because i must hear the survivors.
And the flash bangs are rly loud.
The sounds are broken at the moment.
You used to be able to hear survivors running down basement stairs. Now you can't.
I have problems with auditory disassociation, so relying on sound is hard enough as it is with the blaring chase music... but im glad I'm not the only one who things the sound balancing got even worse lately.
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@The_Crusader said:
Vietfox said:Well, killers are getting nice addons and ebony moris for 3K so...
Survivors are pulling them out of chests like crazy though...along with keys and purple toolboxes.
Killers cant pull out moris or add ons mid game.
I know killers have a much bigger need for time than survivors, but it would be pretty sweet if they could do something like apply a hex to a dull totem mid match, have sacrificed survivors drop an addon under the hook, or even trap a chest and turn it into a mimic or something stupid like that. Maybe make it killer specific and have the hag/pig/trapper/clown be the only ones who could do it, and have it require their power or something.
In the meantime I guess we'll just get survivors finding free escapes constantly during this event, and a bunch of free items otherwise.
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@TheDarkWall said:
Honestly, the only complaint I have with behavior is their slow implementation of balancing adjustments after confirming that he'd get one. I don't see the reason for it.He's very difficult to balance correctly. the vast majority of buffs people have requested would make him arguably nurse tier. I'm honestly really not looking forward to the wounded change if it actually goes through, its just going to reward tunneling players and reduce the already non-existent level of counterplay vs him by basically giving him a free frank's mixtape, or forcing EVERYONE to take self care.
They're going to end up too strong unless they get this update just right. Unfortunately, many of the people asking for improvements want them to play completely differently than they actually are designed to, so listening to those people can be disastrous.
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I've used em to blind survivors who teabag at the exit and refuse to leave :chuffed:
In terms of serious application, Ive had luck with using them after during a pallet break or after getting a killer to vault a window to make absurd distance or even get an urban evasion juke. I just wish they weren't a good 80% of the items that are in chests...
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@Dreamnomad said:
We're Gonna Live Forever: Whenever a generator is completed, gain a token. Gain 10/15/20% bonus bloodpoints across all categories for each token earned.That is what it should look like. The survivor shouldn't have to run around and touch every generator to get the token. As long as 5 gens get done, you get the bonus.
That would just further promote gen rushing, and is not even thematic to the perk, thus it is a bad idea. The perk is supposed to be rooted in altruism and/or boldness, so its gains should come from those categories. Remember part of the reason BBQ works the way it does is to reduce camping and tunneling by rewarding killers who DON'T do that. Likewise, the survivor equivalent should reward players for working as a team rather than just playing m1 simulator.
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its still usable on every single killer (even legion can get info from it, as well as land an exposed hit in very rare circumstances. The counterplay its made for with legion is for people who time jumping into a locker just at the end of Legion's frenzy: think like how people use instant locker hops to juke the nurse's blink/billy & bubba's chainsaws/etc. If someone tried to do that while the killer is running Iron Maiden, they would be exposing themselves right next to the killer.
My understanding as to why this was introduced with the legion is because of the stun at the end of his frenzy, as well as his 110% MS and need to recharge his frenzy. A well timed locker juke would extend the chase as much as a successful pallet stun vs him, so they came up with a perk to prevent that situation. They then realized it was TOO situational (yet still less situational than the likes of slippery meat) and added the speedy locker check to give it more viability across the board and open additional synergies.
It is a niche perk to be sure, but its still more versatile than you're giving it credit for. Unfortunately there are a few god tier perks that tend to ruin a lot of the other ones, but there are plenty of people who get great results with more niche ones when they work them properly into a build.
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They're all good perks in the meta, but its not really a meta build. one or more would usually be substituted for something like Urban/Balanced Landing/We'll Make It/Bond/Empathy/Alert, especially with solo players.
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tbh i would actually prefer if they nerfed it a bit more, but introduced some kind of "first aid stations," similar to how jigsaw boxes spawn around the map, and likewise giving the killer their aura but not survivors. They could have limited uses (cooldown period, only once per survivor per box, limited charges, small number per map, something of the sort.) This would give a big risk/reward by immobilizing the survivor and combating gen rush a bit, while also making self care less "obligatory" (I never run it, but I understand why such an absurd number of survivors do.)
Granted if such an idea wasn't balanced properly, it could become either worthless or too good, so they would definitely need some time working out advantages and disadvantages of them...
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Wraith: less shimmer while cloaked, or at least decreased uncloaking time baseline. maybe even an addon that removes the shimmer entirely. Allow a cloaked wraith to block pallet activation like every other killer can (currently, he can block them while uncloaked, but will always get teleported back and stunned while cloaked)
Pig: combat straps baseline, less of a roar on ambush attack. or at least have it not actually start until the attack is already out rather than while charging. Make traps less RNG, or at least give them the ability to start their timer faster than the next gen pop.
Spirit: make her animation when lunging out of phasewalk a bit more clear. The afterimages are way too close together, making reaction plays impossible (especially with even the smallest latency.) As it is, the second you hear that jet engine the only thing you can do is urban evasion away from whatever thing she's assuming you plan to defend yourself. I dont like the idea of nerfing her since I think she's in a really good spot, but that always really bothers me when i see it.
Trapper: Literally anything to reduce the RNG surrounding his traps. I like that idea about resupplying from lockers, but some others could be being able to take them out of some kind of pack and prime them (similar to the clown's mixes,) allowing the trapper to rearm them without having to pick them up, making one of the sacks baseline, anything.
Cannibal: Better addons, less speed reduction while charging (or at least having his "acceleration" start from 100% rather than 85%.) Also better addons. did I say better addons?
I haven't played the others enough to have too many opinions one way or another.
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@White_Owl said:
@Kind_Lemon said:
Side question: Does anyone know what happens if I drop a survivor that has Adrenaline? Does it put them into the injured state from the dying state so I can smack them?If I'm not wrong Adrenaline becomes wasted if it activates while being carried by a killer.
nope, it activates as soon as they regain control. So if they get free from a killer stun, or if they get hooked and unhooked. I've seen it used with breakdown and deliverance to some pretty silly results.
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it retains a usefulness because it prevents them from using lockers, which is 1 of only 2 hard counters to BBQ (the other being distance, hiding behind gens only works against colorblind people like me sadly.) A lot of perks are built around their synergy with specific killers, and some of them can be entirely useless on others. Thats kinda the nature of creating a build in the first place. If you're just trying to shoehorn it in where it doesnt fit, of course its not going to give you stellar results. Its the same reason you wouldn't run something like territorial imperative on most killers, even though it is actually useful on a basement specific build for specific killers who can defend it well like the hag or bubba.
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@Attackfrog said:
Lol listen to all the survivors.... "NO!!!How can we instantly nullify it if it's not a hex!?"hex perks suck at the moment. NOED and dh would likely be overpowered if they were normal perks, but as hexes, they are almost useless against good survivors.
Hexes need to be gone completely and their perks need to be rebalance to be useful at higher ranks.
or totems need a revamp.
while i agree, to be fair, Haunted Ground can put those same survivors on some pretty easy hooks early in the game, even if its just yet another layer of luck you need.
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60 seconds for something that can proc exposed multiple times, at zero effort of the killer? Thats a terrible idea. Iron Maiden is a synergy perk, like many others. It synergizes very well with both the doctor and the huntress, covering two of their core weaknesses (survivors using lockers to avoid screaming, and the amount of time the huntress needs to waste restocking hatchets.) There are many other perks that are FAR more situational and much less rewarding for ANY killer, especially the dreaded surveillance. That said, iron maiden is far from useless in its current form, it just suits some killers a lot more than others.
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Don't forget the wraith has nowhere to actually approach from 90% of the time without his shimmer giving him away, and the clown and huntress have a TON of obstacles to block their throws.
I honestly wish it was still disabled.
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@Tsulan said:
Ryuhi said:@Tsulan said:
Am I the only one who thinks WGLF should only award points from unhooking different survivors, just like BBQ does?
Right now it favors unsafe unhooks.
Its already hard enough to get stacks, why would you want to make it harder? This would even cause people to ignore unhooks because they'd be wasting their positioning to be able to secure saves that WILL grant them stacks. There are much better alternatives, my favorite of which is to REQUIRE that it is a safe unhook, but grant a second stack if you heal that survivor to full within a certain period of time. All they would need to do is give it a decent window of time like We'll Make It and it could make the perk a lot more reliable. Another suggestion I've had in the past is to make an event for drawing a killer as far away from an unhook as possible, giving teammates a chance to get the unhook and full heal without being anywhere near the killer's TR for the duration. There are plenty of ways to improve the system without trying to make it parallel to BBQ&C.
As it stands currently, the best strategy is to wait until the killer is just outside of their TR, then unhook with your back to the killer. that way when they inevitably come back, you'll take the hit instead of the hooked person, giving you two stacks for a bad play. either that or using BT when they're pretty much just outside of distance to be able to grab interrupt, which is also a bad play that effectively grants stacks. Its bad enough people do things like try to bodyblock when there isnt enough time to wiggle free, just to take a slug and get the stack.
TL;DR instead of making it harder to get stacks overall, they should make it so that smarter plays can also get stacks, and make it harder for dumb plays to.
Stopped reading after "stacks are hard to get"
Killer stacks are hard to get. But survivor stacks? Just move away from the gen...yeah, and when there's 2 p3 claudettes popping a squat right next to the person who just got hooked, your chances are reaaaaaal good to get those stacks by just "moving away from the gen."
Kindred isnt baseline, so the only way solo survivors are going to know someone else is going for the save is to either hope the person hooked has it, or just assume someone else is going for it unless they actively know where the other players are (on the same gen, for instance.) Not only this, but an unhook grants 1k, safe unhook adds another 500, and a full heal adds another 400... ON TOP of getting at least 1 WGLF stack. all in far less time than it takes to complete a gen for 1250. This causes a vulture effect where people essentially flat out fight over unhooks, especially since they already committed to leaving their gen to get there.
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@DemonDaddy said:
I only slug #3 so that I can punish #4 for abandoning a teammate. #3 can have hatch if they crawl to it after that.same, if they're willing to put up with the long wait to die, i dont mind if they get the hatch compared to the guy who sat in a closet next to the hatch waiting for a chance to slip through.
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@Tsulan said:
Am I the only one who thinks WGLF should only award points from unhooking different survivors, just like BBQ does?
Right now it favors unsafe unhooks.Its already hard enough to get stacks, why would you want to make it harder? This would even cause people to ignore unhooks because they'd be wasting their positioning to be able to secure saves that WILL grant them stacks. There are much better alternatives, my favorite of which is to REQUIRE that it is a safe unhook, but grant a second stack if you heal that survivor to full within a certain period of time. All they would need to do is give it a decent window of time like We'll Make It and it could make the perk a lot more reliable. Another suggestion I've had in the past is to make an event for drawing a killer as far away from an unhook as possible, giving teammates a chance to get the unhook and full heal without being anywhere near the killer's TR for the duration. There are plenty of ways to improve the system without trying to make it parallel to BBQ&C.
As it stands currently, the best strategy is to wait until the killer is just outside of their TR, then unhook with your back to the killer. that way when they inevitably come back, you'll take the hit instead of the hooked person, giving you two stacks for a bad play. either that or using BT when they're pretty much just outside of distance to be able to grab interrupt, which is also a bad play that effectively grants stacks. Its bad enough people do things like try to bodyblock when there isnt enough time to wiggle free, just to take a slug and get the stack.
TL;DR instead of making it harder to get stacks overall, they should make it so that smarter plays can also get stacks, and make it harder for dumb plays to.