Rydog
Rydog
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@Bovinity said:
If they block you BEFORE the endgame starts, that's an offense.
If they block you AFTER the endgame starts, that's not.
Block you in what way though?
From the OP's post, it sounds like he was standing in front of the door the whole game, waiting for survivors to come open it. They could just open the other door.
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It's easy to cherry-pick videos like this to support a specific narrative. This guy made some mistakes that cost him. And, this type of game, where all the gens pop that fast, is absolutely not the norm.
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This is not how balance in games works.
There are currently 146 perks in the game; of those, about 23 (roughly 16%) are "meta," going by Dennis Reep's tier list (which is obviously debatable but also a convenient shorthand for this discussion). This is a pretty normal ratio of awesome-to-awful, and it breaks down like this in any game with an abundance of options. Look at any fighting game, or League of Legends, or any other competitive game with an enormity of character options, and you will find that a small number of those options always rise to the top.
Balancing is hard, because changes have ripple effects, and those lead to unforeseeable consequences and shifts in the game's meta. That's why things get buffed, and nerfed, and re-buffed, and re-nerfed, and tweaked to eternity. There is no "perfect" balance point that doesn't just boil down to Ryu vs. Ken, it's an ever-evolving thing. It's just what is.
If Behaviour nerfed a bunch of the top-performing perks, it would just result in some other perks being considered the top, and then a bunch of other stuff would get buffed down the road, and we would be in the same boat with roughly the same ratio, and all that would have happened is a deck chair rearrangement.
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@TheLastGreatStar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1323583#Comment_1323583
Well thanks to you I just found out about Umbra and I am already in shock at how good she is with Huntress. I’ll have to check out some more of her content. Thanks for mentioning her.
And yeah, I agree about not turning this into a complaint thread. I can understand why people love TrU, he’s just not for me and that’s okay. :)
Umbra is RIDICULOUS. Like, missed-her-true-life-calling-as-a-military-sniper ridiculous (I'm mostly exaggerating, but I am constantly in awe of how consistently she hits positively INSANE hatchet throws). I've been queued vs. her in the past, and it's always 100% obvious that it's her when I'm getting nailed by hatchets from across the map -- and it's always a complete massacre lol.
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@thottiepippen said:
It really sucks when you get tunneled early while the gens are dropping. You can't contribute. You finally get some room to breathe, and you can't do enough (avoiding third hook, helping team mates etc) to avoid a depip. I think this is a great idea.
Yes!
If you loop the killer literally the entire match, and your actions result in all five gens being popped and everyone getting out alive, you will de-pip. That doesn't make sense to me, because in that scenario you were the MVP.
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@NekoGamerX said:
when they not doing gen just out right bully flashlighting me loopping like crazy this like when there like 2 or 1 gen are left i want the match to end.
Keep going after them. At some point they will run out of safe pallets.
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@TheLastGreatStar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1323544#Comment_1323544
I used to watch TrU but I couldn’t stand how often he made excuses. Whenever he was being outplayed it was because he was against a SWF, which he didn’t know for certain. Or he’d scream “DEAD ‘ARRRRD” when the player clearly didn’t use it. I just stopped having fun whilst watching him play. Then I discovered Monto and I found that he had the ability to laugh at himself more, which is a much better quality to me.
Yeah, TrU does try to find a lot of excuses for having been outplayed, and always suspects everything of being a stream snipe. It gets a little old.
I've found that Monto also exhibits some of the irritating qualities I described above, but he at least has a jovial and self-deprecating personality.
I don't want to turn this into a complaint thread about streamers, though. There are lots of good ones out there! I also follow Zubat, Hexy, and Geef. They're all pretty cool.
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@Ihateyou said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1323538#Comment_1323538
I don't care, that's griefing.
At this point you're effectively just sitting in chat repeatedly spamming "GG EZ."
It's a discussion about a video game, not some single-issue ballot debate. Have some perspective and engage with the topic. I don't think anyone here disagrees with the notion that the OP's killer was being a jerk.
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I really like PainReliever's YouTube content, because it is clear that he thinks a lot about the game mechanics, and how everything in DBD works. Scott Jund is right up there too, for the same reasons. And @SpaceCoconut is quickly getting up there with them.
My favorite Twitch streamer would have to be Umbra, because she is down-to-earth and, for lack of a better word, normal (plus she's arguably the best Huntress player in the world).
I know guys like Otzdarva and TrU3Ta1ent are good players, and Otz in particular has lots of good YouTube content. But "streamer life" streamers who put on obnoxious heightened versions of themselves, and do awkward close-ups to mug for the camera, and overreact to everything... those people drive me nuts. I can't watch them for very long, because they are always going out of their way to be "on," and don't come across as their genuine selves. That is way more important to me than how good they are at the game.
(EDIT: Hey, post number 2,000! Go me. I should probably go do something productive instead of hanging out here all day.)
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I think it boils down to a) not knowing any better, and b) being jerks. When I was a brand-new player and literally knew nothing about the intended game flow or strategic value of this-or-that, I played Myers, and I facecamped my first hook because I was like "Hey, this is what Michael Myers would do! Remember when he shishkabobbed that guy in the original Halloween and then stared at him creepily?" My behavior was quickly corrected, and I never did that again.
There's a particular streamer I have encountered who takes absolute JOY in playing a facecamping Cannibal. It's what he does, and he does it night after night. It's the whole theme of his stream, and he delights in arguing with survivors during post-game chat over the validity of it, and then finger-wags them for falling for it instead of fixing generators. Not gonna name and shame here, but he's a shining example of why some players do this.
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@Ihateyou said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1323484#Comment_1323484
I don't care what he said, I saw the screenshot. That's griefing.
The killer is definitely being a jerk, and is entirely wrong about he survivor "holding the game hostage," whatever it is they thought they meant by that. But the bleed-out mechanic exists specifically to curb any intentional griefing due to this type of behavior. I understand why this is not considered to be a reportable form of griefing (because it would be a waste of human hours for CS to sift through countless slugging reports), but it was definitely unnecessary and mean-spirited for the killer to do that.
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I have full rank 3 perk libraries on two survivors (Claudette and Kate) and two killers (Nightmare and Spirit) with a third in-progress (Doctor). These are the characters I play unless a challenge or daily ritual dictates otherwise.
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Holding the game hostage implies that the game will continue indefinitely at the whims of one or more players, and the only way out is to disconnect. Example: A killer or a fellow survivor has blocked you into a corner, you cannot move around them, and they refuse to let you out or otherwise continue playing normally.
I don't know how long you were looking for the hatch during the situation that you described, but it doesn't matter, because there is no possible way this could fall under the definition of "holding the game hostage." Even if you were scouring the map and avoiding the killer for like 15 minutes, Huntress could have triggered the EGC by finding the hatch herself. You were not preventing her from playing or progressing the game normally.
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@RavCav_ said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1322293#Comment_1322293
Oh, what are they meant for then? Do tell. While playing as killer (at rank 17), I have just ended red rank survivors who are clearly better than me at the game just because I had a mori. Maybe moris are to help compensate for matchmaking with high rank survivors vs. low rank killers? I don't know.
This is going to go nowhere. He can't/won't articulate his positions, and even after exhaustively laying out my case and asking him to respond, I don't understand what his view is, beyond what I have put together as "I want this broken win condition because killer is treated unfairly."
(EDIT: For clarity, I am not trying to put words in someone else's mouth. This is my interpretation of the conversation so far, but feel free to correct me if I'm jumping to wrong conclusions.)
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@MegaWaffle said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1321775#Comment_1321775
Indeed.
It goes both way too, nothing like slamming a team as a killer and getting a 4k with a de-pip.
I don't think I have ever seen that happen before, in my own experience as killer at least. What would you have to do in order to kill everyone and de-pip? Could it only happen from a ton of camping or something?
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@IamDwight said:
Even if you were to prevent a survivor from "letting go" during struggle phase, that's not gonna stop them from finding the killer, running straight into them and basically pointing at a hook so they can die and be over with the game.
Punishing people for wanting to move on is stupid. Nobody should be forced to conform to your playstyle.
The guy who is leaving three teammates hobbled is the one unilaterally forcing everyone else to conform to their choices. I have way more of a problem with that than I do with one guy being unhappy that the game isn't going the way they want while four other players continue to play it.
Even in your dim view, the unilateral decision-making is the option that hurts the most people. I suppose I can boil this down to a "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" argument, however absurd that is for a video game.
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@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1322416#Comment_1322416
The point of the ebony mori was it's a power trip addon(It used to be able to mori people EVEN WITHOUT HOOKING THEM) while also being very rare so it wasn't seen very often.
Also as other pointed out keys old BNP's also cut off parts of the game if not the WHOLE GAME; As Old BNP could get the exit gates opening in ~57-53 seconds was a record I saw.
Also outside of moris/monstrous shrine killers can't speed up their main objective(part of it is Sacrifice progress while on the hook) with items/add-ons unlike survivros with toolboxes/BNP/Leadership/Resilience/Spinechill(Its boost has saved me more times then you'd think).
So saying they killer can't move their goal post while the survivor have multiple means of doing it is simply being biased against killers.
For what it is worth, I agree with other major recent nerfs, too. I think the game is far better off without survivors' insta-heal add-ons, for example. And I have some strong opinions about keys, too (they're just as degenerative and goalpost-screwing as moris). I didn't know moris used to work without hooking people, that's awful. Where we're at with them currently is still not a happy medium, though.
Re: game speed, the idea that a killer would have to rely on a red add-on to have any hope here is crazy. If there is a problem with game speed, it's a way bigger problem than the red mori. And, it seems like Behaviour agrees, because they're going to introduce some sort of beginning-of-trial phase which I assume would cut down on early generator completion time and give weaker killers (like Trapper) a chance to properly set up.
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@elvangulley said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1322423#Comment_1322423
Because Im not blindly agreeing with you that seems to be a survivor tactic. Propose an undeserved oneside nerf, come up with a weak argument to try to justify the nerf, completely disregard any argument against your points, then insult the other side accuse them of not trying to have a conversation because they dont agree and ignore them.
You aren't responding to any of the points I'm making, which is how a discussion works. That's why I said you are arguing in bad faith.
I've laid out a case for why I feel the way that I feel about this specific mechanic. I have opinions about other mechanics too, but this topic is about moris. I play both survivor and killer, and have no strong bias one way or the other. I believe both roles need attention in various aspects; I'm not playing an "us vs. them" political game when I make suggestions. My post history can certainly vouch for that.
If you disagree with me, I am happy to discuss, and consider your perspective. I just tend to get a little irked when mine is roundly dismissed in an inconsiderate way, and I would not blame you if you felt the same way if I did the same thing to you.
@Skittlesthehusky has a point though, calm is good. I am not trying to turn this into a mean personal attack.
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@Wolfven said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1322374#Comment_1322374
Definitely agree. I noticed that I have to be abit more try hard after rank 4 , kinda stuck but its a good challenge ><
Yeah. Doing enough to get a pip at purple just makes you break even at red. I feel like I have to be at absolute peak performance, at all times, to get anywhere once I hit 4.
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@elvangulley said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1322400#Comment_1322400
Ok Lets make a deal you can cripple eb mori but ds bt unbreakable adrenaline dh get hard nerfs and keys
I'm not talking about those other things, I'm talking about moris.
And you're arguing in extraordinarily bad faith, so we're done here. I feel like I'm arguing with a 15-year-old or something.
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@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1322383#Comment_1322383
You do know most mories take longer then just picking survivors up, walking, and hooking them right?
Also countering DS on death hook doesn't actually mean much at that point in the game thus are more or less irrelevant unless the exit gates are open AND they are near them.
Let me redirect this: What do you think the intended use case of the mori is, from a design perspective? There are only two possibilities that occur to me.
- A cool death animation, in the spirit of DBD's slasher-inspired theme.
- A method for unilaterally chopping off up to a third of the game.
One of these is a piece of thematic set dressing, with some mildly gameplay-adjacent use cases as I outlined. This would put it, one would think, more or less on-par with other offerings that could occupy that slot.
One of these is a mechanic that, as I said, moves the goalposts dramatically. It leads to degenerate play, carries an outsized sense of unfairness (far and beyond almost all other mechanics that exist in this game with the possible exception of purple/red keys), and... well, leads to discussions like this one.
From a design perspective, I would never dream of introducing a mechanic that does the latter, because it comes across as sanctioned griefing. So I can only assume the actual intent is the former, with the latter being an unfortunate and unforeseen consequence, especially for the red mori. It seems like, for people who want the latter, it effectively boils down to a "nope we want this OP as heck option specifically because it is so grossly OP." This is not a healthy attitude to have.
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@elvangulley said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1322383#Comment_1322383
Still To weak and would be useless so no.
I love when I try to justify my points and ideas with clear explanations in the interest of analysis and discussion, and it is met with the forum comment equivalent of a wet fart.
OK, I'll bite.
Why would it be too weak and/or useless? Please take into consideration the use cases that I laid out in my previous post. I also assume we are not arguing from the same perspective, as I believe there is a pretty pernicious gameplay problem with moris, which I also laid out in my previous post. I assume you disagree. I would like to hear your opinion on this too.
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@Warcrafter4 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1322306#Comment_1322306
O-o the cypress already does(Last survivor is auto death hook) so why did you include it?
Secondly mori for death hooks makes the moris useless so can this idea for them please die as it will never work and make them a junk item.
Fair enough for the yellow mori, I suppose.
Moris (along with keys) move the goalposts in a way that no other build options do. They effectively eliminate anywhere between 1 to 4 survivor life states. A red mori is the numerical equivalent of telling the killer that the survivors only have to do 3 gens + the exit gate. Changing them to be usable only on survivors who have hit the struggle phase would still give the killer a tactical advantage, in that it would eliminate the need for travel time, and it would allow them to avoid Decisive Strike and flashlight saves, all while still ensuring that the game plays out in a relatively normal manner.
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Ranking up past 4 is much harder than going from 20-4.
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@CriminalProcedureLaw said:
Hi guys!
English is a bit clumsy, but I hope you understand.
I am a Korean user.
In this game, developers say Tea-Bagging is not a bad manner.
What do you guys think? It's often a problem in Korea, so I want to hear what you think.
I will show it to Korean users.. I hope you guys write as many thoughts as possible.
It's definitely bad manners. But you should also not let this get to you. Just ignore it and continue playing, don't do it yourself, and try to be a graceful winner and loser.
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It's because Behaviour devotes no resources whatsoever to UI or UX.
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All three mori offerings would be way more reasonable if they only worked on dead-on-hook survivors.
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Unbreakable is only really powerful when paired with Decisive Strike, specifically because it creates a no-win situation for the killer. If they leave you slugged with Unbreakable, you can pick yourself up without needing a teammate to abandon an objective. In coordinated SWF play, that is pretty effective.
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@Dehitay said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1322147#Comment_1322147
So you think it's stupid to not require people who don't know anything about this game to get to know things about the game and play well in order to rank up? Btw, I can think about people who don't know anything about the game and have it explained to them the first time cause this happens ALL THE TIME. You get somebody new to start playing and then you explain it to them. Then they understand it cause they don't refuse to accept reality (or at least that's true of my friends). If you don't play well, you don't rank up. Very simple concept.
I think it's unhealthy when the game doesn't make clear internal sense, with weird contradictions at like the most basic level. If I say "Your goal is to escape," and then you escape, and the game punishes you, you're probably going to go "I thought my goal was to escape. Why did I get punished for completing the goal?" This is dumb. I'm not saying there shouldn't be degrees of granularity to the ranking system that differentiate between mediocre or stellar performance; I'm saying that it should adhere to a little bit more basic logic than it currently does.
Also, the question in the topic is about whether you should get a safety pip for escaping. That is a zero-sum pip that doesn't improve or diminish your rank at all. So, if you're meeting the "bare minimum" of escaping without playing any better than you have to in order to get out, then you'd still be effectively just treading water, if the game gave you a safety pip. This would still compel players to improve their skills in order to actually rank up.
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All you people questioning this idea, think about how stupid it looks, from a casual player's perspective, that you can fulfill the central goal of the game and still rank down. Like, pretend you don't know anything about this game, and that it is being explained to you for the first time. Think about how backwards that would sound.
I swear, people are incapable of stepping outside of the context of their own experience to fairly evaluate the flaws or merits of something.
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@LordRegal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1321763#Comment_1321763
I don't disagree with that logic whatsoever. I've been vocally against challenges like that since Tome 1. I just wanted to say that this one specifically was doable without the sandbagging.
It's possible to do without sandbagging, sure. But the frequency that it's getting brought up in these forums suggests that this is the exception and not the rule.
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You're assuming they're going to get it right, out of the gate.
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We are in the upside-down.
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@Bovinity said:
Honestly, yes.
At least a safety pip if you get out, and at least a safety pip if you 4k. (Or 3k, since that counts as a "win" according to BHVR?)
Maybe they don't want to encourage people to hide in corners all game until the hatch/door opens or something. I dunno.
I think a killer should automatically safety pip if a majority of survivors are dead, too.
People hiding in corners all game is solved with crow notifications. They should just make this happen if there is no meaningful interaction (at least 10 seconds of continuous generator repairs, a co-op healing action, a chest search/totem clear, or an encounter with the killer) for some reasonable amount of time, regardless of whether they are hiding in one place or moving about.
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@Milo said:
Use Bottled Time if you want?
Haha, I've never heard it called this before, but that's pretty good.
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Yes, a safety pip should be a guarantee if you get out alive.
Escaping and de-pipping is one of the most counterintuitive things in this game.
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@LordRegal said:
The trick is to be doing things that help the team even while you're near the killer. Copy pasting the game I got it here:
"Wound up on Dead Dawg. Went to the Saloon gen, working on it, Nea runs the Leatherface to the pallet right below the overhang. I honestly have no idea WHAT she was doing, but she somehow kept him there for over half my gen before going down.
I was worried that wasn't enough, so I made sure Leatherface knew I was still on the gen, then snuck into that room that only has a window entrance until the killer knocks the wall down and hid in the locker. He checked both lockers on the outside of the saloon and then ran past the window, but didn't find me.
Several dumb plays and two hooks later, it's revealed he has DH. Claudette shows me where it is before saving me, as it's right by my hook, inside the saloon. Leatherface, bless his heart, didn't tunnel me, I go to cleanse it as the Claudette goes down, and goes up on the hook I was just on. Leatherface hears me doing his bones, but can't figure out how the hell to get to me, finally breaks the wall next to me right as the totem explodes, but none of that was "in a chase" either. I died knowing if I was EVER going to get the challenge, it'd be that game, and lo and behold, it was."
So yes, some luck, but also some ability to play around what the cards dealt me. Two things done intentionally, one done by accident (the Nea). It is doable, I promise. And the victory is all the sweeter for how annoying it is.
Players will willfully focus on the challenge, to the detriment of other factors in the match. All challenges need to be built around a "What's the worst behavior this could result in?" contingency. The conditions for this one demonstrate some negligence on Behaviour's part in this regard.
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@Dead_by_Gadfly said:
Freddy and doc. Cause F the haters
I came here to say this, but you beat me to it. 😄
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It's a horrible, badly designed challenge that incentivizes negligent play. How they haven't hotfixed it out yet is beyond me.
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The penalty stacks (something like 5 minutes, 1 hour, 1 day, etc.) for each successive disconnect, and they decay at some rate that I have no clue about.
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@Dr_Loomis said:
They should add the unnamed male victim from the pre-game intros in Friday 13th.
Hahahhahah that poor guy.
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If you're down, you're down.
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I don't consider prestige to be a necessary or sensible option for any reason, so I am eliminating it from the equation, as I refuse to waste my human hours and BP on that. I have full perk libraries on 2 survivors and 2 killers (working on #3 now).
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@CashelP14 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1321197#Comment_1321197
I'd say if people can't loop then they shouldn't be at the high ranks. When I imagine a red rank survivor I think of someone who knows how to rush gens, plays smart and can loop. If I have a teammate who is bad at looping and wastes time self caring then I'm definitely not happy with matchmaking lol
I didn't the Bond discussion so I can't say much about that.
Not self-caring doesn't equal getting downed at the gen. That's all about being smart in the moment. If I'm injured and I know I can't complete the gen in time then I'm leaving it. The thing is me staying on the gen injured, before healing gives us more chance of completing it before the killer comes.
Self care isn't useless but definitely isn't good.
I can be a straight-up potato when it comes to looping (unless it's an easier loop like a double-window or maaaaaaaaaaybe shack), and I consistently make it into red ranks. My strategy tends to be "don't engage with the killer unless I have to." It has served me well so far.
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For me, it's when people ragequit because they can't like normal well-adjusted adult humans.
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@BloodMoneyMerc said:
You are just the worst kind of person. You must hate having fun. You're the type of person to remind the teacher to collect the homework that everyone was hoping they would forget about. I bet you put ice cubes in your soup when it is "too hot". You are no better than a P3 Blendette. Shame on you!
If I am ever killer & you pull this kind of trickery on me, I will show you no mercy (if I can go without being gen rushed that is). I will tunnel. I will slug. I will show you the meaning of unfun. Just kidding I'm not that mean, but still... not cool dude.
Haddonfield has really grown on me as a survivor. Those houses have a lot of great hiding spots.
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I do this too. Glad I'm not the only one.
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Anime is boring!
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@H3xB0rr0w3dT1m3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1314436#Comment_1314436
No, it indicates that most of the other perks are ######### and not worth running. Why do you think most survivors run borrowed time, Ds, adrenaline, an exhausting perk, unbreakable, and or deliverance? Because they’re good and a lot of other perks are terrible. The problem is that allot of perks are terrible and need buffs
Posted this in another thread last night, but, relevant here too:
There are a lot of bad perks because there are a lot of perks, period. There are currently 77 survivor perks and 69 killer perks. Balancing that number of things is not easy (plus the perks don't exist in a vacuum either), and balancing changes always have unforeseeable ripple effects.
Have a look at all the characters in, say, Marvel vs. Capcom 2, and then do some digging and tell me how many are viable (the answer is 4 out of 56). Dead by Daylight's situation isn't quite as dramatic, but it's the same principle. When you have a ton of options, there is gonna be a small smattering of stuff that is worth using, and a bunch of stuff that just isn't as good. If they tried to rebalance everything, it wouldn't make a difference. The deck chairs might get rearranged, but we'd probably wind up with a roughly similar ratio of awesome-to-awful.
(EDIT: That said, these ubiquitous must-run perks like Pop, BBQ, or all of the survivor perks that you named -- the issue is that the power gap between them and everything below them is so huge that it's not even a contest. Behaviour could probably make everything a little closer in power after a ton of work, but some other perks would probably arise as the meta must-run batch.)
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Bond is an infinitely better healing perk than Self Care. And Inner Strength is a good runner-up.
I understand that Self Care has some valid uses, but most people are going to use it inefficiently, and it just teaches bad habits. You're better off using Bond, Inner Strength, or even Pharamcy. Heck, just bring a brown med kit if you're that worried.