Rulebreaker
Rulebreaker
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@Oxah said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789272#Comment_3789272
on the first paragraph the assumption part is the very root within, since now there's no substantial manners for these lobby shoppers to shop as easily, those who cares enough to shop in the first place will use the now even more ridiculous reasons(anon mode, default skins, globes, names) even more than they used to.
On the second paragraph I am a 100% with you. nothing we can do but voice ourselves. Which is why I am here in this forum thread. I want to be heard because I feel like I am collateral to this whole thing and it sucks.
That's not exactly shopping though (by the usual definition we understand), that's just effectively random leaving. There's nothing to base off of now (bar bloody clothes and if we stretch it charms) which is what "shopping" entails no?
While we're somewhat sorry you feel like collateral (nothing personal but this week has caused our empathy to dry rapidly) this is an all or nothing deal. While we're technically pro hiding (technically as we 3 don't care but see hiding prestige as better), we do say this part as unbiased as we can: hiding prestige harms nothing except egos.
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@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789216#Comment_3789216
I have tested it anyway and if you lower everything above 4.5 kHz, then it helps a lot with Bat sound.
Gracias
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While we agree with the sentiments, these options are getting pretty much a no from us.
- No, closing hatch gets the game to end faster (providing the killer isn't an arse). And if the teammates that hide all game makes it that far, more likely they get out.
- We feel this is testable, but we're going to warn you that survivors may abuse it and more ppl will be getting to second stage a lot more.
- No. There's enough basekit going round. Besides, in that story maybe that gen was more important than the heal. We don't know context so we can't tell.
- Also no. A: its cheep to whomever is caught first B: could lead to many other players to get free keys, C: would promote the killer to go full throttle from second 1.
Even if these went through, what buffs would you suggest for the killer to compensate?
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@Oxah said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789260#Comment_3789260
Others assume is the very reason people dodge in the first place so this argument doesn't stand on that matter, they mentionned it was good when it was both so keeping this way of lobby for killer wouldn't change anything as of what is going on right now
I agree with you punishment is not a good one but still an option and also would go up in time if you keep on doing this. I doesn't bypass the issue, the issue is within something deeper than just a badge in a lobby screen.
Hiding it removes that assumption though. Now all they have to guess with is costumes which all but the most paranoid wouldn't do. Most likely anyway. Assuming we're following correctly (your going with only the killer can't see prestige right?) it would not solve the problem of survivors dodging the lobby.
Yet as we're aware there are some people who would not care and the damage has been done. Cold comfort at best. Your correct in that the issue is deeper, it's the players themselves wanting a "perfect match" (exaggerating but you probably get the point). How you'd fix that is beyond us.
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We're late to the party but here's our two cents
They can't make hiding prestige optional. If someone hides it, the others assume (killers or other survivors) and dodge. It'd be like not hiding it at all. Making it that only killers can't see does not stop survivors from dodging people who they perceive as bad due to prestige.
Having a punishment for leaving the lobby doesn't undo the damage it does when it happens as the matchmaking gets screwed and tried to make a match asap. It wouldn't be as accurate since it prioritizes time over quality, and the overwhelming majority want time. And lastly, why implement a punishment when simply hiding prestige bypasses this issue (lobby dodge) just as well if not better (a good amount probably won't care about a small penalty)?
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Love hate. We do like the powers (they're good if not especially unique and get the job done) and despite what everyone claims about the wolf form we especially like being a good murder puppy. That said, like Vecna, he's a pain to use with a controller.
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@Akumakaji said:
On paper the increased hook timer shouldn't be too much of a problem, but now that I have seen it in practise, it feels like the killer has little to fall back against prepared survivors. Like clockwork one gen after the other is falling, and they most stay injured to gread their Resilience to the max. having now all the time in the world to let their friend hang from the hook just a little longer, and if you manage to apply some pressure, down/hook three and hunt the last, one of the slugs under gurantee has UB.
This is the kinda games I am facing right now basically constantly and besides tunneling I really have no answer to the pressure the survivors mount up on the killer these days. Sure, sometimes the game throws pups at me, but thats usually apparent within the first 2min of the game, but against serious survivors its pretty miserable.
I am sure that some clever one will quickly jump in and claim "uwu .. .you just got one bad game against UB and now come crying", but I assure you, thats not whats happening here.
Strangely we actually got what was on that paper. Nothing has changed for us (a person was even left to go into second stage again at that). Whether or not it's because we're getting potatoes after being away for so long we don't know, but survivors aren't being any more efficient than before (they weren't less either though bar that one game).
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@LordGlint said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3788683#Comment_3788683
The quick give up as survivor they're talking about is suicide on hook, which doesn't result in a bot.
Correct us if we're wrong, but isn't that a mechanic of the game thats just abused by survivors?
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They can generally run anything since your probably going to be mixing using your grenades and m1 hits but get a lot of value out of things like bbq and the above Friends til the end. Things like distance don't matter as much to the unknown. We like to run info denial with unknown, but that's us.
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@IIITweedleIII said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3786332#Comment_3786332
Yea, and everyone complained about that version too. It only lasted a week or two iirc
Actually couple months, and the majority of the complaints were still geared towards how it bypasses wards
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@IIITweedleIII said:
Be happy Franklin's is in its current form.
Considering there were a time it was once had the effect that your item was completely devoured by the Entity once it was smacked out of your hand. Not just emptied of its charges
whats funny is that if that version was still here then the combo would fall apart
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Hollywood Undead masks could work well for either side. But the doors wide open for pretty much anything survivor wise.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784275#Comment_3784275
Again, if it wasnt good for survivors, they wouldnt be doing that. Why do you ignore that? You made sure to write an essay on a hypothetical scenario that suits your narrative but ignored the actual argument.
Also, here's a cherry on top: Devs not only arent going to buff DS, they proceeded to nerf it in one of the previous recent patches after letting 5s DS that was objectively worse than pre 6.1.0 version to exist for 1.5 months officially (and 1.5 months thanks to a bug). Seems like devs too recognize DS isnt a healthy perk and just a necessary evil they have to cope with until they get a better solution for blatant tunnelling.
You have yet to actually explain what we are missing. What is the actual argument, that DS can be weaponized? We understand people can weaponize it and we also understand that we can effectively ignore it and it can backfire. It's not always good and in a majority of cases we've seen since it's change, it has been detrimental, they keep trying to weaponize it because they want to annoy the killer. Your also straight up denying how slugging a survivor whom is trying to weaponize DS creates pressure (which is what we Rulebreakers we're talking about). We have thrown points in on how it does create pressure, yet you are just saying nope you wrong. You say we're missing out on an opportunity to get a hook because we must smack the weaponizer, how? Did we magically lose the rescuer? It might make it harder to catch them, but it's well within a competent players ability to get them. What. Are. We. Ignoring?
As to this second one, we honestly don't give much of a damn about DS as long as it fill 3 reasonable conditions, which even with ops buff, still does.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784213#Comment_3784213
Im not going to argue with you about things Im not going to change my mind on because I have thousands hours of conscious experience validating my belief. Your words mean nothing to me as I know they're factually wrong. Spare me of a semantics talk, thanks.
Slugging DS person is losing pressure instead of gaining it. You miss out on the opportunity to hit/down a person you could hook and therefore proc your anti gen perks or secure a stage / kill because you must hit a person weaponizing defensive perks.
If that wasnt the case people wouldnt be doing that because it would be suboptimal. It isn't the case though. Therefore I firmly believe buffing DS even more will make its offensive usage even more annoying and powerful which is not what would make the game better.
Have a good day.
And if others have thousands of hrs proving those beliefs are "factually wrong"…where does this leave you. You want to disagree, fine and fair, but calling it factually wrong is itself factually wrong.
Slugging leaves said survivor on the dirt which under common circumstances needs others to pick them up as we've stated. Said slug is effectively in time out until healed. And the best part is we can add on to this. After you get them, your then free to move on to other survivors which would then increase pressure as now that's more survivors occupied on things other than gens. And should they choose gens before friends, depending on how good the killer is would leave them in a precarious situation.
On to the next part. You hit the blocker you know has been recently unhooked. K, now did you completely lose the other one? As we've also said before, you as a killer are free to chase others, so what is stopping you from continuing onto the rescuer? Inefficiency? Would you then not be inefficient because your gambling on said blocker having DS or not instead of the one you know can't use it? Loops? Burn a pallet and find someone new or just say f that. Hit and run has been a thing since forever.
Third, this specific buff of the OP would only hurt the part of the cast that can easily recover from it (GF and Meyers are the only 2 we can think of atm that it would really feel it undeservingly). Regardless of even that, you think a good Billy or Nurse and the like would care much anyway? Doubtful, and they're the types who can most easily avoid it. Would this make DS more powerful? Yes, it's called a buff for a reason. Will it make it more annoying? Only to those who forget there's easy work around.
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3784031#Comment_3784031
Which is why Im saying that in the context of buffing DS even further, please dont ignore the context of the thread.
If OP wants DS buffed - offer a solution for DS being weaponized, alas there's none, therefore DS shouldnt get buffed due to situations like this.
If OP wants DS buffed - offer a solution for DS being weaponized, alas there's none, therefore DS shouldnt get buffed due to situations like this.
Why not? As killer, you choose who you go after and who you don't want. If a survivor body blocks its the killers choice to smack and continue, wait then smack and pick up, and also perfectly able to leave slugs (and in this instance is where rational survivors can't whine about it), etc. Adding on the effect wouldn't be to terrible (It'll probably add bugs to Nemi and like but thats a separate issue)
Which is why Im saying that in the context of buffing DS even further, please dont ignore the context of the thread.
So correct us if we're missing something. In the OP, they wish to have DS set powers that need charges and tokens to 0 should the killer be hit with DS. Your argument is you want something to make it unable to be weaponized first. Firellius argues its free pressure and doesn't see an issue. You next say that its not pressure (or your wording strongly implies it at any rate) and your losing a chance to apply bigger pressure. We then reaffirm its still pressure though. What are we ignoring?
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@Toystory3Monkey said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3783988#Comment_3783988
its not.
im losing a chance to apply bigger pressure.
It is still pressure though. We agree it would be nice to have a solution for that, but a slug is effectively a useless survivor until someone gets them (which is 2 not working) unless they got a way to pick themselves up.
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Long as its only the tv you pop out of it would be a nice little buff
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@Chocolate_Cosmos said:
Aka the killer that always sits in bottom of pickrate yet being always put into top A tier killer.
- Why "nobody" plays Artist?
- If Artist strong as everyone says, why not more people play her?
- Is there something that should be changed about Artist?
- The minimum to "play as" her is not very involved or fun for many (place crow at loop till hit) while the minimum to "actually play as" her is decently high (long shots, creative shots, etc) and many dont want to put in the work to learn.
- This is kinda the same question as the above…guess we could add that there are options just as good while being simpler
- Nope.
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Sadako - More Tvs. Shorter TP cooldown when near your partner or your partner gains undetectable when your phased near them. 1. When she teleports survivors are exposed instead of gaining an insta kill ring piece. 2. Plays as normal and survivors pray for the best. 3. It takes more than 7 ring pieces to get insta death (we dislike this for flavor reasons)
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We dislike it as it just made things more irritating to go through. Its not the worst thing we've seen, but its a downgrade from the previous store.
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Freddy - More clocks. Has both puddles and pallets, but a smaller or shared number. Whenever a survivor falls asleep they're revealed for x seconds. Not sure if cages should wake survivors (personally leaning to yes, but we think he could get away with it)
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- Pig - Everyone starts with a headset. The first box will always get the trap off. There is 1 box per survivor. Each box can only be used once. Evil rules: traps starts active.
- Wesker - Double the sprays. Survivors caught by wesker's power (damaged or not) are revealed to their partner for X seconds.
- Nemesis - 1 vaccine per survivor. Extra zombi or 2 (leaning towards 1 or 1 wild zombie and 1 follows your partner around like a good trooper)
- Plague - More fountains. Aura of corrupt fountains are shown to your partner as well. Kinda it as she can get absurd in that mode if given a way and we want some form of balance despite these crazy ramblins of ours.
- Xeno - 6-8 turrets max. More tunnels. Your partner gets killer instincts as well when xeno exits tunnels. Xeno changes into crawler mode much more slower outside tunnels or more than x meters from your partner, which then rapidly changes them.
- Hux - More printers. Overclock lasts longer when near your partner. Survivors auras are revealed to your partner when you look at someone in a bipod. Alternative: Survivors are revealed when tagged or slipstreamed to.
- Pinhead - 1. The box is hidden until a chain hunt activates or 2. Chain Hunts start much quicker. Either way survivors caught by a possessed chain are revealed to your partner.
- Legion (because someone wanted us to mention them) - Your partner also sees everyone revealed by killer instincts. Mending is faster.
These are just some random ideas we made on the spot. Did we miss anyone?
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3782005#Comment_3782005
And yet there's no downside for the killer.
You get the benefit of 2 perks if survivors "counter" the combo, and you get the benefit of 2 perks if the survivors *don't* counter it also.
So if the killer gets value no matter what, that sounds remarkably like there's no meaningful counterplay to this combo.
The downside is 2 perk slots with practically nil use for the remainder of the trial should survivors actually bother to counter the combo. Your USING 2 perk slots if your running the frankenweave (don't remember who on the forum thought that up but they're a genius) combo. Once it's countered killers can't exactly move items. It's like running corrupt that lasts anywhere from 0 to 40 (and we're stretching that number) seconds with 1 second lethal that then only gives visuals in a corner. All depending on if survivors run a item. The meaningful part comes in that the survivors are DENYING pockets of unlimited aura reading randomly scattered around the map.
@Gorik said:
Should, Windows be given a cool down again. Nothing crazy, maybe like 10 seconds, which is very reasonable I believe, and still aids new players.
But it does stop it being used constantly due to the fact that it is overall a strong perk with no cooldown, but also not to nerfed like the old 30 second cooldown.
We feel sorta bad for helping derail the topic so srry bout that. For our 2 cents on the mater Windows is currently fine as is to us. It has counters and the info is only good if there's actual resources and if the survivors know what they're doing. While we think people are overly relying on it, it's not in a bad spot as it's useful across the board.
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That would be RNG screwing you over. Usually we get greens with the lowest being yellow. We also don't know if there's actual numbers involved.
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Probably wouldn't hurt to test, our concerns being more risk to hexes (hex totems more likely to spawn near gens or on the open) and aforementioned pentimento.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3781665#Comment_3781665
But this "base kit counter" everyone talks about is a form of slowdown.
You have to reveal your aura to the killer at the start of the match, and then go find a corner to drop your item in. It's like lethal pursuer, a mini corrupt intervention, and means you don't have an item until you waste more time going to get it later. Which doesn't even touch on oblivious. And, I can't emphasize this enough: that's if you're "countering" the combo.
It does even more than that if you don't counter it, so it's basically like at least 4 perks in place of two. Or even just one, since people will see weave and automatically assume the killer has franklin's, even if they aren't running it.
And like lethal and corrupt, it's a one time thing if it's countered. The time is also variable depending on survivors and spawns. We often get thrown in a corner of the map to spawn so in cases like that time is negligible. If it's like those perks then it's a extremely worse version of them as it's almost completely under the Survivors control unlike normal lethal or corrupt. Survivors can also shockingly play without items. The counter may act like a slowdown, but it's only a 1 time thing for everyone who brought an item (0 times for those who don't) and not nearly as strong as actual slowdown perks.
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@Ioden said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3781582#Comment_3781582
Hey thanks for the reply. Just in case there was a misunderstanding with what I said, when I wrote;
"If Freddy has no perks to know which generator is being worked on, his use of power might be wasted if he cancels it, or even uses it."
I meant that, Freddy and Singularity can both teleport to generators, but Freddy can't inherently know which one to go to (without the use of perks) while Singularity can monitor generators it has put Bipods on and can always make the correct teleport decision.
Your point on generating EMPs is valid, but I would also say it goes to my other point that time is valuable, and if 1/4 survivors are making EMPs then generators might not get done efficiently and in time. This is the same reason survivors don't generally go cleanse unnecessary totems or open chests when the game state is undetermined.
I still think it would be interesting testing the suggested changes to allowing EMPs to remove Bipods not just disable them. This way, while yes the killer will have to spend time replacing them, but at the same time survivors need to spend time making EMPs. In somewhat how, if survivors disable Trapper's traps, the killer has to manually set them again, the traps don't reset by themselves (except with an add-on, in which, an add-on for Bipods to not be destroyed but only disabled might be viable).
His effectiveness in chase, sure can keep that if needed. There's already killers that can end chases quickly. But his map control and information can be oppressive, and this is BEFORE adding any perks, which I agree are fair game, a killer should not be changed because they use certain perks well.Your welcome (not sure what the thanks is for)? Didn't see the "if" so our bad on that front (in our defense we were on a phone, tiny text)
While Freddy doesn't know where to teleport, hux has to tag survivors first to be able to teleport (which he then has to actually teleport after a delay). If he cant then he's gotta walk like we've previously said and those tags can be fried.
1/4 survivors are making EMPs then generators might not get done efficiently and in time.
Here's where we'd argue as what's "efficiently" and what's "in time". As long as someone is working, gens will be efficient enough as long as Hux doesn't catch survivors in under 30 seconds and like (not exact times but hopefully people get the point). It doesn't matter how survivors keep his attention, from run and hide at heartbeat to looping for days, but as long as it's occupied enough then gens will be done.
We would say people don't do totems and boxes more due to lack of incentive than undermining the match as theres little point in doing dull totems and chests aside from rift, NOED, and wanting a new item and maybe the point gain without certain perks.
I still think it would be interesting testing the suggested changes to allowing EMPs to remove Bipods not just disable them.
Sure its testable but for our 2 cents on the mater is it's just going to make hux more of a pain to play, which is what we thought the update was suppose to alleviate. Survivors should already be trying to print EMPs so they're ready when needed.
His effectiveness in chase, sure can keep that if needed. There's already killers that can end chases quickly. But his map control and information can be oppressive, and this is BEFORE adding any perks, which I agree are fair game, a killer should not be changed because they use certain perks well.
So while hux always can have information that can't be denied, his map control is determined by survivors as well as his chase factor. As said many times, those emps are there for a good reason and its up to the survivors to be smart with them. If survivors play well, use the emps smart, and print them every now and then, hux becomes effectively an m1 killer.
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@Ioden said:
I was going to make my own thread but will add to this discussion instead.
Please correct me if I am wrong, and I will acknowledge any mistakes I make in the discussion
Freddy can teleport to a generator every 45 seconds, cooldown reduced for every survivor that is asleep. Singularity theoretically can teleport to a survivor working on a generator, assuming the killer can tag them and activate his power.
If Freddy has no perks to know which generator is being worked on, his use of power might be wasted if he cancels it, or even uses it. Singularity can just cycle through all the generators it has Bipods near and always make the correct decisions to go defend the generator or not. With no cooldown, aside from the Bipods being deactivated. Which only lasts for 45 seconds.
Time is the most valuable resource in this game. And so in my opinion, this is what's frustrating when playing against this killer. Survivors rely on another survivor being chased, downed and hooked and then the killer arriving at their generator, to finish their generator in time.
The Singularity, however, can monitor all generators it has a Bipod near, and so after chase, can immediately get back into chase, and to go the generator being worked on. The killer can even check on generators, in the middle of chase if needed. And because part of its power enhances its chase capabilities, those chases potentially aren't very long.
For a survivor to get time and protect their generator, they have to wait for an EMP, disable the Bipod, then only gets 45 seconds to work on the generator before it is active once more. That is a lot of time wasted if you want to avoid being put into chase or being interrupted from working on the generator.
It feels very oppressive to have a killer that can get downs quickly and also has almost perfect information on which generators to attend to, so no time wasted.
Furthermore, all that time you spend disabling a Bipod, the Singularity can just shoot it and replace it instantly if it is close.
I have only two suggestions that I would want to be considered. I am not a game designer and not the best of players, so if it is not viable then I understand. I would like tested for EMP's to destroy Bipods in the radius, not just disable them (since the Singularity just replaces them anyway). This would give more time to do generators and force the Singularity to manually go over and place them, and punish the Singularity for placing them too close together. The Singularity will still know which generator to go to, because its Bipods were destroyed, in the same way it knows Bipods are disabled.
There does not seem to be a cooldown on Overclock mode. Might I suggest a 10 second period between teleports. My time is based on the Dredge, where in the upcoming update, its teleport has a 10 second cooldown during daytime. This would mean that the Singularity would need to be a bit more careful on its teleports during chase.Freddy has no power to know what is being worked on. Perks are fair game.
[Disclaimer we have not seen nor played hux since his changes, if there's a piece of info wrong or missing please correct us and donate that info to the Rulebreaker library]
So the thing is with the EMPs, which are supposed to be used to hinder hux's power, Hux only has info. Survivors can either wait for one to be near done, or speed it up themselves. This means as long as everyone is helping them along from time to time, survivors will have a decent cache of them. Overall Hux is a m1 killer with info and a teleport/super mode combo that can be denied.
He's gotta set up before he can teleport and survivors pretty much have to let him. If he can't teleport to the survivors, which can be denied via walls and aforementioned EMPs, he's gotta walk. Attentive survivors know when he's watching because the bipod makes noise and glows bright and so can be cautious when he stops looking aka disappear from the area. He can immediately replace them sure but that's also time he's gotta spend getting there and doing it.
He's already punished for placing bipods too close because EMPs fry them in a decent radius. He's gotta either wait for them to come back or go manually replace them should that happen.
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3781395#Comment_3781395
Agree with everything there.
Regarding the "penalty", it is a nerf in the grand scheme, so I can see how it'd be perceived as a penalty to SWF. I suppose the question is do the cons outweigh the pros?
There are 14 general perks, 78 non-licensed perks, and 44 non-licensed perks for survivor. A significant number of the main meta perks are available from the non-licensed cast... so personally I don't think the cons are much of a con... the only immediate concern I have is regarding brand new players... but ofc, I'd imagine their more seasoned friends would accommodate.
Ofc... I do understand I seem to be a bit of an oddball in all walks of gaming... I like having options in games, with nuance and meaningful choices relating to your individual playstyle. I take issue with things being the default best choice to use in any scenario... (for example... I hated World of Warcraft, cause there was one and only one viable build tree every time).
A lot of people like things that are strong, whereas I don't like using things that are strong at all... I wanna use what I feel like, and have good reasons to do it, but also compromises that I had to take as well. I didn't like MFT while it was riding high because there was literally no downside to it, but now I use it quite often.... and I tend to react favourably to nerfs regardless of which side it affects...
So yeah... I suppose I'm the weird guy that is probably not too qualified to answer what would be fun on everyone else's behalf 😅😅😅
That's up to the community to decide as if it gets enough attention we're sure the devs will look at it.
But the scenario of 4 friends who are brand new players joining DBD at the same time?~ (This is just for argument sake)
We're similar as we like options and customization. That said, what we think is more the problem is that while there's not many actual bad perks, no one wants them cause they're either to niche (not bad), not meta for the meta sheep, or are countered relatively easily by things killers have (ex: resurgence vs hemorrhage) vs the simple SB of run and go zoom and like.
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@UndeddJester said:
I know that Survivors are gonna pitch a fit at me… but I'm not trying to ruin the SWF experience, so plz do hear me out first… My suggestion is:
You may only take 1 of each perk throughout the whole pre-lobby team…
For SoloQ, obviously anything goes, you take whatever you want, no limits…
However, the more of you that are in a SWF, the more limitations you have… and limitations encourage build diversity, which I personally find a lot of fun… making builds is a part of DBD that I really enjoy…
So what are the benefits?
Puts a small restriction on SWF, bringing SoloQ a little closer in strength on average
My thought process, is we talk a lot about bringing SoloQ up to SWF level, and there is a lot of contention about what Survivor should have to even out the playing field for SoloQ vs. SWF. People talk about basekit Kindred a lot for example, and I for one don't want basekit Kindred because excessive auras make things easy/boring for me. I find reading the HUD and making assumptions and tactical decisions based on the info I have stimulating as a survivor… and if I want access to those advantages I want to have to invest in it. However it is undeniable that comms in SWF makes Kindred something you don't really need, and if you are so inclined, you can take it to be even more precise in comms; have 1 player take it and be scouting/directing the team.
Having a limitation on SWF means a full team of solos can all have their strongest loadouts, 4 players at max kilter, whereas a SWF needs to trade off strength for the power of comms... this should bring both a little more in line on average.
Allows perks the freedom to be made a little stronger, and not held down by "being abusable in SWF"
We also importantly see how a lot of perks can't be buffed too much/made too strong for Survivor/SoloQ because you unfortunately also buff them for SWF as well, and things become more open to more abuse. We've all seen things like organised duos using Plot Twist, Power Struggle and Flip Flop under pallets to make life very hard for the killer. It IS counterable, but it's also dependent on the killer you're playing and can be quite obnoxious for certain killers with little they can do about it, becoming quite nasty if everyone is doing it on the team… but this only works with effective comms, it's almost impossible to pull this off for SoloQ.
For example Sabotage could be improved a lot… but there is this problem that if it is too good, an organised SWF team can use it to quite effectively bully the killer, and keep putting the killer in lose/lose scenarios. Thus Sabotage is made weak, and thus is hard to use for SoloQ. The effect of Weaving Spiders had a similar problem.
This issue gets diminished significantly if only 1 copy of a perk exists in the SWF loadout, which in turn allows a little more wiggle room for those perks to be made stronger overall, because they can't then be mass spammed by a team.
Promotes build diversity, and adds an interesting new layer to playing in a SWF
For anyone thinking this kills SWF, I'm not convinced it does. I for one would find building for SWF far more interesting, because instead of everyone just taking the strongest builds they can, we have to think about what perks we want to take, and what roles we want to occupy in our team. The whole team dynamic now takes a little more thought and becomes far more interesting, and the community at large starts thinking about combos they can try instead of everyone just taking Lithe, WoO, We'll Make It and Off the Record, or whatever.
So I ask, would such a thing be good for the DBD experience? I'd certainly enjoy it more on Survivor, what does the DBD community at large think?
Overall we're not sure. Our own opinions aside, there's a number of pros and cons that sorta make it a wash to us, it wouldn't be strictly "beneficial".
Pros:
- Perks can be made "stronger" more immediately and less risk
- SWF bully squads loose some effectiveness
- Adds some perk diversity
- Killers can worry less about SWF power (we're admittedly reaching with this one)
Cons:
- It "punishes" playing with friends and using something outside the game ("punish": Inflict a penalty or sanction as retribution for an offence, especially a transgression of a legal or moral code. "Penalty" is being unable to use something if your swf mate uses it. The "transgression" is being in a SWF and/or using outside coms)
- It only adds diversity if people are in a SWF
- It might not add much diversity (ex: 2 duo swfs with both pairs running the same set)
- Competent solos can still abuse the stronger perks, even if it's harder.
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KYF (aka: custom games) allow you all to play with each other.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3779704#Comment_3779704
And once the novelty wears off, nobody will play it. Great.
That's the spirit
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@Aven_Fallen said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3779688#Comment_3779688
As for queue times... 2v8 is VERY popular. It's a real suffer from success situation. You have alot of ppl queueing to play killer because having a killer teammate which is a new experience. The gamemode is also basically the "casual" mode ppl have been wanting since there's no need to remember 100 different perks.
You mean, the gamemode is easy mode for Killer. This is why it is popular. I have yet to play a game where I did not get at least a 7K with a random Killer teammate.
Or maybe, just maybe, it's actually fun because it's a new thing and not the same repeat people see in 1v4?
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3779110#Comment_3779110
It's not about how often they'd be obliterated. It's that it happens at all. When it happens to much to survivor, which will absolutely happen if we bring random matchmaking back, we'll be back to year-long killer nerf sprees. What MMR would do (if they fixed it) would put like-hour'd, like-skilled players against one another so that the devs can even begin to get good data on what works, what's OP, what's common, what's trash, etc. Because right now there's a ton of might as well be random matches, and the devs are actually trying to base their changes off that. Killer getting stomped all game but gets 4 because of too much altruism at the end? Overperforming. 2 great survivors die because of their 2 trash teammates? Survivor must be too weak. It's not working. We need consistency in our matches.
Ya know, when you say it doesn't matter how often it happens then a sentence later your talking about what happens when it happens often it kinda makes us think you're just trying to wake us up from our nap >.>
That aside, mmr kinda works already but players keep tossing any good data for the devs out the window via lobby dodge, hook swings, letting people escape (yes even this can be bad in excess), and the like.Your also not going to get consistency due to these human factors. Depending on how tight you make the match making, people would be waiting lot longer, and as people already hate the 10 min wait for 2v8, it probably won't go well.
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@RenoPro said:
They would improve if they face someone better than them, I get that getting obliterated is not the higher point of multiplayer experience, but out of 10 matches how many would be like that? 1? maybe 2? The rest would be fun games .
When you reach a mid high level of skill Sbmm and mmr are the most boring thing ever, every match is the same and you need to create your own fun.
The most fun i ever had in multiplayer game was long ago where no game had any sbmm or mmr.
Thinkin your underestimating how often they would be obliterated…
When you reach any point most matches become the same cause everyone is running the same bloody thing or doing the same bloody thing 90% of the time. Don't think sbmm and mmr have anything to do with that.
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@Rivyn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778842#Comment_3778842
Good idea, but I'd wait until we have more killers tested out. See what works and doesn't before going into a standard rotation.
Well yes but they can (hopefully) do that testing when 2v8 isn't the current modifier so no worried on our end~
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@Science_Guy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3779086#Comment_3779086
Changing the duration of the sprint effect, which was previously the longest of all the Exhaustion perks iirc, was enough of a nerf. Instead, now it's "Sorry, your teammates did the last gen while you were hooked, the perk you waited all game to use is useless and it's end-game so the killer is free to camp and tunnel and take you as their free kill," a lazy and awful approach to 'fixing' anything.
You still get the speed burst do you not? You still might have teammates willing to take hits for you do you not? The previous version was, to put it in similar terms for the killer, "Sorry the survivors finished everything and got the unhook, they're free to go". It fixed frustrations while still being fair.
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Honestly we'd think there should be a random rotation. Would be lovely chaos.
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@Tyler3 said:
You're probably thinking "what?". Hear me out. I made a post yesterday:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/423596/how-do-you-escape-in-this-situation
And it got people a little riled up about something. 'Are survivors a team?'
@Ayodam commented this:
"Survivors are not a team like in Apex Legends, Overwatch, or similar team-focused games. They’re four players with the same goal. This is why why survivors are graded individually at the end of each trial (MMR and pipping). It’s why survivors are rewarded individually at the end of each trial (blood points & EXP awarded). The devs have repeatedly stated this; survivors can help one another or play for themselves and both are absolutely legitimate strategies this game. Both can lead to individual victory, which is what survivors are graded on and rewarded for by every available metric we have.
What survivors are, are resources for one another. Just like pallets and perks that can be used to help individual escape efforts. At the end of the day, to spell it out plainly, teams profit and lose together; not individually. When you die in trial I’m not punished as I glide through the exit gates. I’ll gain MMR and pip regardless of what happened to you. You will earn less BPs and may not pip at all. When depipping was a thing, you might have that happen to you. But these consequences that you face wouldn’t affect me or any other survivor who escaped at all.
Killer mains have this xK = win or loss nonsense. And maybe for you all it works. But it doesn’t apply to survivors. Survivors don’t win or lose collectively, per the metrics BHVR has established in their game. For survivors trials are technically a ([1v1v1v1)] v1."
Ultimately, most survivors are out for themselves and everybody else is expendable. A survivor, if they wanted, could drop pallets on teammates, purposefully fail skill checks and even blind other survivors with flashbangs to try to get them killed, all so that they can escape. In a way, they'd be working with the killer. Does this mean they're on the killer's team?
In certain scenarios, a survivor's biggest threat is other survivors. Like stated above, Trials are technically a 1v1v1v1v1. At the end of the day, the survivors' goal is to escape, no matter what. Even if that means getting your teammates killed doing so. This all begs the question, are survivors a team?
Sorta yes and no. Technically what Ayodam says is correct in that its 4 people sharing a goal. Each survivor is individually scored and theres no penalty or anything for leaving your fellow survivors in the fog while you escape. Survivors are only a team in the loosest sense in that they're reliant on each other to open the doors via gens.
That said if everyone plays free-for-all style the likely hood of all the survivors dying increases…drastically. Hence why normally survivors at least work somewhat like an actual team (or more accurately should as we're seeing questionable actions from survivors in 2v8). There is also a tipping point where selfish crosses into working with the killer which is reportable for what its worth.
We three personally consider survivors a rag tag bunch of misfits but not a true team. While everyone needs to work together if everyone wants a good shot at surviving, once that gates open any semblance of teamwork is at the mercy of everyones mood.
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@TheRealConsent said:
I was reading another post about how broken Weave Attunement is, and I realized the argument of "Yeah it's easy to counter on paper, to drop the item to the other side of the map, but playing item baby sitter for the rest of your team isn't fun or effective." Is how I will summarize it.
But for killer mains (I'm one too, but I've yet to bother trying to use Weave Attunement), it's just so simple. It's too simple for us to bother to understand you.
Then I realized, this is the Killer equivalent of Boon totems. Survivors thought they were fine, they said "Just snuff it."
My conclusion here is that, both sides are not so different from the other when it comes to our reactions to similar situations. It's practically identical, if anything. No matter how much division there is for which side we play, on average, the average person is bound to be about the same.
Also it means Weave Attunement needs a nerf since it deserves the same treatment as Boons. Just count yourself lucky if you don't have to wait as long as Killers had to wait for the Boon nerf.
And the moral of the story is:
We are all a bunch of hypocrites apparently.
While we agree they're not so different, the few differences they do have is where it counts. Both are under the survivors power (Weave only works if survivors bring items or open boxes while boons just needed to be blessed on a totem). Survivors could rebless the totems practically forever while the single killer needs to repeatedly snuff them to deny the effect. Meanwhile the counter to weave (throwing the items in a corner) needs only done once per item among 4 survivors (killers can't move items unless its attached to a living survivor).
We are all a bunch of hypocrites apparently.
We take offence, we're A holes, not hypocrites thank you very much :p
@I_CAME said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3778110#Comment_3778110
There is no valid reason why killers should be able to see items. Hopefully they come for this after they get rid of prestiges.
….at the press of a button (multiple at that) survivors can switch their entire loadout in a second. Does it matter that the killer can see you swapped everything at the last second?
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There used to be "respect the 4%" but doubtful anyone does anymore
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@mikaaareid said:
I’m sure if you play only as killer you are. Survivors not so much. Here are some reasons why the game is not fun anymore for survivors.
- The only way for survivors to escape from the killers are pallets and perks. Survs gets hit through pallets and windows, if the killer is lagged, wow, getting hit from miles way is a laughter situation. There are not enough pallets in maps and maps are currently filled and filled with dead zones. So, if survs don’t have pallets or perks we go down. Going through windows we get hit or down, no matter how far we are on the other side. We get hit or down through pallets while stunning the killer and being on the other side. Hitbox is just horrible, it doesn’t exist 99% of times.
- We don’t have good perks anymore. There’ no metas because there are no perks that are good anymore. The ones that were good were nerfed and are now dead. If we play without perks is the same thing as playing with them. Killers on the other hand have perks for EVERTHING! Gens, auras, noeds, whatever, they have everything. We can’t even hide anymore because they see auras 95% of the time. The fun is basically a game of hide and seek, which it was when the game began 8 years ago. It’s not that anymore. You can stand still on the far corner of the map and the killer will still find you. Good luck, right?
- So, when survs don’t have speed, perks, pallets, hitbox, killers have perks with instadowns, bloodlust, teleportations, long distance itens or powers while being 3 times faster than survs. While survs have what? Exhaustation for minutes on end if we use an exhaustion perk. I don’t even use it anymore, I’m going down either way. The killer will catch up in a matter of seconds.
- Toxic killers that tunnels til death while having 5 gens. Survs don’t have perks good enough for anti-tunneling anymore because the game is pro tunneling, it must be. Killers leaving survs to die of bleeding out while humping their bodies. There is no option to just “give up” while being on the ground. We are obligaded to watch and wait for MINUTES! All of this because toxic people want to show how good they are, while having extra speed, perks, add-ons and instadowns.
- If you have any fun on this game is when playing killer or sometimes surv with friends. Solo queues are just unplayeable, which most surv players play. I don’t have friends that can play with me for hours on end, which leaves me to solo queues most of the time. After I die an anough amount of times I just give up. Behaviour it seems doesn’t care about survs anymore, everything is killer sided. The only good perks we had got nerfed and killers are only getting buffed in all updates I see. It’s a shame really, because I like the characters, the mechanics of the game, but I don’t see Behaviour doing much.
- If I’m a survivor I will do everything I can to survive, so why deadhard, DS and other perks got nerfed? We have more than 50 survivors, triple the perks and only 1% are usable right now. It’s really sad indeed.
Now, name one thing, one thing at all that benefit survs? You’ll get a prize! :)
- We also have stealth (yes you can still stealth even with all the aura reading perks) and brains (a requirement for stealth). That aside, survivors will be going down if the killer knows where you are and wants to put you on a hook unless your leagues better than them. You require a team to stand a chance against the killer. As for the latency thing, ain't really much we can think of that can be done but thats not exactly the games fault.
- Yes, survivors still get good perks on ocassion, though that depends on each persons definition of "good". Its just many don't want to use them or need other perks to make it shine (like some killer perks…hmm). Yes you can still hide, its just harder depending on what you and the killer bring.
- …since when are killers 3x faster than survivors? We'd feel cheated if that was true as we've never been 3x faster than a survivor.
- Well, can't argue about players making each other miserable. We'll ignore the parts we could argue about since it don't concern the main point.
- we're going to be ignored we can tell but solo Q is playable. The main issue comes from other survivors (not the killer, the our own freaking teammates). If most survivors would stop giving up at the slightest sign of trouble we'd have MUCH more enjoyable games, live or die. But the games where everyones fighting till the end? Those are playable and enjoyable. And because we gotta state the obvious Bhvr does care about survivors since the game requires 2 (dos, duo, two) sides to play.
- See bullet 2.
Now, name one thing, one thing at all that benefit survs? You’ll get a prize! :)
Survivors have: Perks, (occasionally competent) teammates, overall better add ons for items than a handful of killers, 3 chances at escaping (gens, hatch race, and door, not listed is keys), anti-face camp, anti 3 gen, and some maps.
…soooooooooo whats our prize?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3777789#Comment_3777789
Thing is, this is a whole combo of perks compared to 1 single one. Is this combo awful and boring to go against?
you act like survivor don't have combos of perks that also slow the killer down… like Lithe+Decisive strike+Med-kit with Red syringe. Dead hard+Iron will+Decisive strike Med-kit Red syringe, Sprint burst+Off the record.
Anyhow, it was perk idea that i wrote 2 years ago, didn't post it because i never thought old MFT would ever show up up in the game but i forgot that i wrote this perk idea 2 years ago.
you act like survivor don't have combos of perks that also slow the killer down… like Lithe+Decisive strike+Med-kit with Red syringe. Dead hard+Iron will+Decisive strike Med-kit Red syringe, Sprint burst+Off the record.
We act like we know theres bs on both sides. We could rant about our thoughts on those "combos" but short version is that they don't stack and don't stall as well (or maybe the word is consistently since it depends on the killer) as something like the above killer ones (care more about you seeming to try and put us in some X main category).
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3777547#Comment_3777547
it already has two deactive conditions. if you get an opening hit, the perk deactivates and if killer chases for 30 seconds, the bonuses expire. They can be re-activated within the timer by killer losing chase or survivor losing chase but honestly losing chase with bloodlust 2. you move fast enough that you shouldn't be losing chase.
if everyone runs it, it's pretty much 2 minutes of nothing for most killers.
This is very good description of Corrupt+Deadlock+Pain Res+Hex:Wretched fate for survivor. 2 minutes of doing nothing due to 4 stacked slowdown. Surely you won't face proxy camping+Tunnelling at 5 gens vs C21 Blight or Other killers with wall-hack add-on's. I.e Cigar box clown etc.
Ahh we glazed over that second one so our bad on that
That said still sorta poses the same issue of many killers going to be getting nil for those 2 min (as the timer reactivates upon losing chase [which is different than losing the survivor mind you]) without heavy investing in that time sink (since this is at the start survivors have all the pallets to work with [so we're unsure where the whole bloodlust factors in here])
This is very good description of Corrupt+Deadlock+Pain Res+Hex:Wretched fate for survivor. 2 minutes of doing nothing due to 4 stacked slowdown.
Thing is, this is a whole combo of perks compared to 1 single one. Is this combo awful and boring to go against? Absobloodylotely. But the combo requires 4 slots and in the case of 2 of those hooks while yours is at the start of the gate and requires either a hit (which for the average m1 is gonna be tough unless the map helps) or a minimum 30 second sink just for the boost and not counting the time to hit after (and then again for the down). In addition, its not gonna affect a good handful of killers already commonly seen (blight, billy, wesker, huntress), just the uncommon ones (pig, trapper, meyers, gf [to be fair for gf, sneak attacks work]) which gives some less reasons to play them.
Surely you won't face proxy camping+Tunnelling at 5 gens vs C21 Blight or Other killers with wall-hack add-on's. I.e Cigar box clown etc.
So now this part your gonna need to explain to us why its here.
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
Well, they will lose a lot of players. I haven't been playing the game at all because I find 2v8 boring with the same two killers every single match (the times I played before I got bored I faced a Billy once, otherwise it was Huntress and Trapper.)
MAYBE when they get the rest of the killers added, but the fact that you can't use any perks, you can't play any killers but those 5 original killers, its just boring AF.Whats funny is we have a similar experience with normal mode. Bleet, Wesker, Billy, an occasional odd man killer are the only things we see in 1v4 who then proceeds to run the same 7 or so perks...but that doesn't have the excuse 2v8 has of only having 5 killers.
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We'd say it probably would need more deactivate conditions, especially if you'd want it to have 120 seconds as if everyone runs it, it's pretty much 2 minutes of nothing for most killers.
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@baharuto48 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3776048#Comment_3776048
It's hard to get my friends who don't play into the game. They want to hang out but they hate the bad form plays. They still jump when they hear the terror radius. 😂 And they can't hit skill checks and can't run for more than 5-10 seconds. This is a pretty unforgiving game to new survivor players.
The question is what's there to help? There's customs and adding killer bots to learn about each one but that's kinda the only thing we can think of for newer players.
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@Dudewithname said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3775967#Comment_3775967
he made his account today and is still an “unconfirmed member” definitely just a bait throwaway account
Yes but on the other claw squeaky toy
Before we forget to respond to the op, while we're indifferent to fnaf, it's nice to see all the fans going crazy in a positive light.
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Here we go again…
When the penalties were turned off, everyone would DC at the drop of a hat. Many MANY games had atleast 1 person DC within the first minute or two. While you can't force people to play, you can atleast make it hard for those types to bail. That's also not getting into how bots don't really replace people or how people should be trying to make sure they have working equipment to play without issue.
We'd support a reconnect button, but that's on the devs to figure out.
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@RpTheHotrod said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3774685#Comment_3774685
First part, you are correct. As I said, it's a deterrent - not a system to absolutely prevent.
Second part, to get it out of the way, I play both sides, but I'm a killer main. P100 The Ghost Face is my primary killer. Myself, along with many other killers including veteran killers and tournament killers have made decisions whether to bother chasing someone with OTR. For many killers, especially killers weak in chase such as many m1 killers, chasing someone with OTR is often not optimal - especially when there's other targets in the same area to choose from. If you have two injured survivors, one completely silent and the other howling to the moon in pain noises, which one are you going for before this iron will buff? Normally, you'd go for someone you know you'd down vs going for the person who obviously has endurance protection (unless the other is on death hook and you're at risk of losing and absolutely MUST eliminate another player - but that's just desperate measures). Again, it's a deterrent…at least it was.
But if it doesn't deter them then is it so? (This is just for fun) If the killer doesn't notice or care about the sounds then does it deter?
Well now your going just gona have to guess if you wish to avoid it. We've been here since Doc and we can again say this in full honesty, we don't give a flying pancake about noise in this sense. To answer the question of which survivor we'd choose, it would be the closest one unless we know the other is bad at running. If we hit OTR it goes to either continue the chase with that or go for the other. If the howling survivor is a good runner compared to the quiet one then it's detrimental to go for them. If the howler is going to the strongest tile while silent Joe is going to the dead zones, what is better? If they used their endurance for a protection hit, then thats the universal sign that they want attention and that means someones gona try and merc them~
Even if we avoid the quiet one we're chasing someone (we're assuming in this scenario is someone got unhooked within line of sight but not completely next to us) by the time we're done chasing the other one then they've probably 1. progressed the game and woulda lost OTR even if they had it and even if they had OTR, they're very VERY unlikely to have been doing nothing unless they're actively wanting to hinder their team or 2. been a useless potato for that entire time which suits us just fine. Nothing about the buff changes these or our lines of thinking on the mater.