Rulebreaker
Rulebreaker
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@Mazoobi said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797095#Comment_3797095
I initially thought about blindness but don't think it would be a fun experience for the user. Survivors getting friendly wallhacks is a powerful tool so a strong negative is somewhat expected.
Would still be hilarious for us. That aside, maybe something like perma aura reading for the killer? Just trying to make sure the noise maker isn't being spammed
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3798020#Comment_3798020
So if you think balancing around the average level player is ideal then do you think that nurse is "fine"? Does she need a nerf?
What about BHVR? Why did they nerf blight and remove hug tech? Surely average level blights didn't know what hug tech was, let alone actually using it properly in a match.
We 3 think nurse is fine as is yes (shocking we know).
Do you expect us to know what BHVR thinks? We still have the impression they have a spinning dart board with ideas taped and have a game of it as to what happens. We agree most wouldn't be able to use it to the extremes that people we're whinning, but thats the thing, people kept whining about Blight (technically we also read somewhere that it wasn't a intended thing by the devs. That might have factored into hug tech specifically). What should be balanced and how is different for everyone (look no further than our opinion of nurse) and numbers occasionally outweighs…sensible? [Not sure of the right word here].
While we're genuinely curious as to where this is going, it doesn't answer the question of: "If more people can play these 3 killers better, doesn't that make them overall better than the 1 who has less people that can play them well?" Seems more of asking our opinions on balance.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797787#Comment_3797787
However it is you define you, but when i hear "Average" i assume a bell curve:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/NURTM0C1OE5C/image.png
So if this graph is skill level, with the far left being the worst players, and the far right being the best players and the height of the graph being the amount of players. Then, balancing around the "average" would assume that you take that point in the middle and that is what you balance for.
If you feel it should be defined differently though that is fine with me, just tell me your definition of it and we can go with that.
We were talking about the survivors who aren't new but aren't SWAT experts, so the graph will do nicely. Still using the graph we would say a tad less than the middle parts (30 going left and right equalling 60) would be ideal. Some simple things for any skill level to enjoy while having things that those of higher skill enjoy.
Now we would put Nurses skill floor somewhere near the upper end, not the top end but up there. How many people in that "average" skill group would try nurse thinking "strongest killer", fail, and stop? How many would keep going, failing a ton before reaching that skill floor to become somewhat effective? Compared to the other 3 who's floors are much lower than Nurse, people can pick up and play and have a decent shot at murdering the survivors. It seems more likely that these 3 would be getting more kills than Nurse since there would be more of them that could.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797742#Comment_3797742
So we make balance decisions based on what the "average" player experiences?
Since it's in quotes, how are we defining "average" here?
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Personally we feel that mains on both sides won't be happy until the game dies...aaaaand probably after that too.
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@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797553#Comment_3797553
If dredge is overperforming then why did they buff him recently? This was before his buffs.
And are you honestly going to tell me. REALLY THINK ABOUT IT, do you truly believe that dredge, MYERS and PIG, are better killers than nurse?
We don't have full context of how this got here, nor do we really care, but we do wanna point out something with:
REALLY THINK ABOUT IT, do you truly believe that dredge, MYERS and PIG, are better killers than nurse?
The average player probably does do better as Meyers, pig, or dredge than Nurse. The casual player will therefore get more kills with those right? Just asking for clarity.
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@brokedownpalace said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797600#Comment_3797600
No reliable way of knowing what aura perks killers are running now other than Weave (when the icon isn’t bugged).
You could also run OoO but that triggers regularly, revealing your aura, so there’s no way to be certain if you walked by a dropped pallet, a chest or if it was just OoO.The block below lists various tells, if you want to skip to the main point see below that.
The only ones with pretty much no super distinct tells are Floods of rage, gearhead, darkness revealed, and retribution. When the killer hooks you and looks around, you can be sure they have bbq, alien instinct (or whatever xenos perk was called), or friends till the end. Kicking a gen and b lining to someone nearby indicates no where to hide. Hex: face the darkness announces itself, while if a hex breaks and the killer suddenly turns and strolls a direction that's not the totem, safe to say Hex: retribution is in play (granted your probably not gonna know from across the map and we forget if the icon appears when it triggers). Lethal is a safe guess if the killer gets into a chase within the first 20ish seconds. We don't know if new Zenshin will have an icon as we've never said it would as far as we remember. New predator has both a CD and the very simplistic counter of continue to get the hell away as even if revealed, they gotta play catch up. None of us has genuinely seen Dracs aura perk so we don't know if it gives a tell. Object of ire has a literal countdown....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out when it goes off naturally or not...we don't know if we missed one but let us know in the comments below~
The point of all that is that survivors need to use their brains and figure out what the killer is running, or bar that figure out cause and effect (ie: if x happens then y happens) or play knowing you can be revealed by something the killer has even if you don't know exactly what and play accordingly. Adapt as best you can in trial, not in lobby.
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So outta curiosity, how many of those can be in a single trial?
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3797418#Comment_3797418
There's no way because that makes fogwise absolutely pointless.
I apologize on behalf of the 3 of us. K so good news is that the previous dolt who answered is wrong. It says when you first start repairing a gen, so it seems only gens you haven't touched. Doesn't strictly mean fresh gens, just ones you haven't touched.
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@Ohyakno said:
Does it only activate when you touch a fresh gen? Or can you let go and resume repairs to see the killer at will?
With the current wording in the dev notes it's every time you touch a gen. You can theoretically keep tapping the same gen unless their wording is off.
Edit: accidentally hit post
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The problem is that should they try anything innovative, there's gonna be an annoying amount of backlash, regardless if it works or not.
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We like the benefits but the punishment seems to harsh for the bonus (mostly/totally the crows) and it would annoy the killer to high hell until they died. Maybe something different for the drawback (we'd personally like perma blindness as that would add hilarious irony).
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@Adrien said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796307#Comment_3796307
- Scarlett-Egg : Killer instinct basekit still applies.
- Rusty-Egg : I meant injured survivors only become broken.
- For the info, you have add-ons, the aim is to nerf hard tunneling, any other suggestion for this matter ?
- Turn rate increase while holding M2 is a request I've seen from time to time, but it's not a popular opinion indeed.
- Seems kinda weird but ok
- Then we recommend rewording that one~
- That's not the info we're talking about? When a survivor gets unhooked that ping tells us as a killer "hey two over here probably doing something you don't want them to do". We don't know any add ons that give info like that.
As to that problem, aside from being able to remove tunneling completely, the best we can think of off the top of our head that we're not going to yip at (for PyramidHead) would be to make cages completely random with an increased anti camp distance. There's some flaws but the killer wouldn't be able to b line for the cage the second they do. This also doesn't stop the type of tunneling we usually see from ph, which is tormented survivors are hooked, then tunnelled to cage, loosing 2 hook states with little survivors can do even with a anti tunnel build. To solve that maybe make tormented go away on hook, but we'd be kinda sad on that (even though we'd admit it might be necessary).... People are the reason we can't have nice things...
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…we want to know what the actual F is the standards for hook times currently
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@nam said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796389#Comment_3796389
The fact is that many skilled killer streamers are learning this playstyle cuz the unhealthly hooking mechanic, the fact proves all.
What it proves is that those "skilled" streamers heavily relied on things and are taking a new approach. If they can't win via hooking, which the game pretty much standard and intended way to kill survivors, how skilled were they actually?
As to our question, we're going to assume the answer is no, no amount of logic will change your mind.
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If we said that this is false and gave a logical explanation, would it change your mind?
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@Adrien said:
I'm a PH enjoyer, he is one of my favourite killer like Bubba, but I play mostly survivor.
Hard tunnelling Pyramid Head is basically old facecamp Bubba in terms of skill, game sense and game enjoyment.
It's very easy to destroy a survivor, especially with one of the strongest 1 v 1 anti loop in the game. At least Bubba had a mediocre chase potential. Same can be said with just sitting around 12 meter of the cage to use punished of the damned during uncage animation.
Also PH add-ons are still too weak despite one nice buff (crimson ceremony book) and maybe needs a QoL improvement.
NERF
Cages of Atonement:
- IF RELEVANT : change the caged survivor spawn location to make it less obvious (very hard to understand the figure of this mechanic, seems like a 90 degress circle with a minimum distance from the killer).
- Relocation Trigger radius decreased to 16 meters (was 10).
- Relocation Trigger timer decreased to 2 seconds (was 3.5).
- A survivor caged for the first time will give no sound/location cue (explosion) on the rescue animation.
BUFF
Note : PH synergizes well with stealth and aura reading stuffs.
Rites of Judgement : moderately increases the turn rate while holding the power to improve navigation around loops/acute angles.
Add-ons :
Iridescent rarity :
- Obsidian goblet : grants the undetectable status effect while using Rites of judgement and standing on trails, lingering effect of 5 seconds (was while standing on trail of torment only without lingering effect).
- Iridescent seal of metatron : sending a survivor to a cage will reveal the aura of survivors in a 4 meter radius around generators for 6 seconds (was tormented survs).
Purple rarity :
- Scarlet egg : reveals the aura of survivor for 5 seconds when they get tormented (was a killer instinct increase).
- Lost memories book : oblivious status effect for 45 seconds when getting tormented (was 15 secs).
- Rust-coloured Egg : inflicts the broken status effect for 30 seconds when getting tormented (was 60 secs of blindness).
Green rarity :
- Valtiel sect photograph : reduces the recovery time by -8 seconds (was -4). Weak effect anyway (PH doesn't need full bar refilled to use his power).
- Misty day, remains of judgment : reaveals the aura of survivor for 3 seconds (was killer instinct).
- Mannequin foot : increases the duration of Torment Trails in the environment by 30 seconds (was 20).
Yellow rarity :
- Leopard-print fabric : increases killer instinct by 2 seconds (was 0.5 seconds).
- Forgotten videotape : reduces the recovery time by 6 seconds (was 3).
- Cinderella music box : increases the trail of torment in environnement by 20 secs (was 15).
Brown rarity :
- Dead Butterfly : reduces recovery time by 4 seconds (was 2).
________________________________________________________________________
End of suggestions.
Let me know your opinions.
Thanks for reading.
Cages:
- We don't know if they can do that without making it completely random. We're ok with that but just saying that's kinda what would need to happen. The mechanic is that the cage generally goes in a area furthest from the killer Ex: you cage someone in bottom right corner, they're now somewhere around top left. It's not always like that but a majority of the time it is.
- Probably a good idea
- We'd argue 3 seconds but worth testing.
- This one we kinda have a problem with. While we don't like tunneling, the info of where 2 survivors are guaranteed is valued enough for us to say no to this.
Buff: no comment as we've never had a problem with it
Add ons: We're only going to comment on the ones we have some kind of issues with as most are either ok or worth testing to see what happens.
- Scarlett egg: We are assuming this (aura reading) replaces the natural killer instinct that comes basekit. We would rather have the killer instinct as that's not countered by anything. A different effect for the add on would be fine but we aren't a fan of removing the killer instinct.
- Rust-colured egg: The current wording you have would injure healthy survivors who get tormented. If that's the purpose we disagree with this. We'd rather have: "Whenever a tormented survivor is injured they are infected with the broken status for 30 seconds". Heck could up the time too.
- Misty day: Same as Scarlett egg.
Overall we like, but there's 2 glaring problems we don't.
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@hygcat said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796037#Comment_3796037
I think a killer could either be a non-feral ghoul or an extremely gullible super mutant. Ghouls have many reasons to hate Vault Dwellers, while for super mutants, Vault Dwellers could be a tasty meal. But if we’re imagining a more human-like killer whose appearance hasn’t been significantly altered, they would definitely be one of the Enclave's power-armored commanders.
Our issue is the power, would a standard ghoul or super mutant have a unique or interesting power (though a super mutant skin for oni seems fitting)? A glowing one might bring something like dot, but this is just our thoughts.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3796076#Comment_3796076
So if you cant recognize the extreme hyperbole used here to push a false agenda then idk. You are being purposefully obtuse and dont really have anything tangible to act on.
I gave an example of people at the highest MMR, since the person brought it up, that do not experience this. Across several of them, and I am not even the highest MMR, and I dont experience this.
So… you can say that everyones individual experience is different, but that doesnt mean a group of peoples random chance, which all are the OPPOSITE (10% SWF matches), and a person ON THE COMPLETELY different end of the spectrum (90%+ SWF matches) is even probable./90%+ the time you get an swf seal team six squad on a killer. No you dont.
They did not use quotations in their original statement either, and even if they did, that is still blatantly over representing something they probably dont run into that often. Much like many on this forum.You cant feign randomization between people and then agree that someones random chance is 9/10 times they have something happen.
Thats not how random chance works.
I also like that its not just 90% but 90% >+<
You are defending the indefensible.You are being purposefully obtuse
For that first part? Obviously, since you took their words which was, to use your words, a hyperbole [a literary device that uses extreme exaggeration to emphasize a point or detail in a story or speech] literally. We're not entirely sure what "false agenda" your talkin about, that mmr affects incentives? That mmr works in general? Honestly don't care either way as thats not what we're concerned with.
Please explain how 90%+ of my Myers games are against potatoes but 90%+ on other killers are seal team SWF, without MMR.
The exaggeration above is that 90%+ are potatoes for Meyers and 90%+ for other killers is SWATs but is used to emphasize Seraphor's point that they see dramatically different skill from survivors as Meyers compared to other killers. Meyers gets more potatoes than other killers for Seraphor experience. This is what you are effectively calling bull (or to be "eloquent", saying they're lying) on.
We are questioning each other as to why we need to explain this since you apparently know what a hyperbole is, so we're beginning to think its just for chuckles.
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My took seraphor's words very literally did ya. Welp, ok then if we're going that route where's the prof that they're lying? Where's the prof of you telling the truth about "Not even streamers who play this game as a career see SWFS in their lobbies at any high rate."?
Now that we got that fun outta the way, the point (we believe) seraphor was trying to make was that the MMR works and is affecting their Meyers matches. You then claim it doesn't using career streamers as evidence. Seraphor then asked the quoted question with which the implication (not literal words) is asking how they're getting different skill leveled survivors with only Meyers than with their other killers. You then claim that they're lying. If we missed something point it out now.
Now how does these streamers experience equal to Seraphor? They're all (hopefully) different people right? Do people not get different experiences? If so we don't count as people.
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@hygcat said:
Just the thought of it is very exciting. The Fallout universe is a real passion for me, and I would love to see a collaboration. It would be thrilling to see a super mutant killer (or a ghoul killer) and a vault dweller survivor together.
Would you like to see such a collaboration as well? Or which universe would you like to see a collaboration with? Let’s talk about it.They could easily do a vault dweller survivor, the killer power might be kinda tricky to think up.
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@Backmon said:
Cause now it feels to strong and overpowered perk especially if combine with off the record. Of course nerf should be fair to not make perk completely useless so for example this change can make this perk more fair:
Nerf: After being unhooked or unhooking yourself, Decisive Strike activates for the next 20/30/40 seconds (now 40/50/60 seconds)Nerf: Stuns the Killer for 2 seconds (now 4 seconds).Nerf: Make survivor who use it exhausted for 10 second (to prevent use haste perk after ds stun)Nerf: Perk doesnt activate when you exhausted (for same reason)We're unsure as to how this is "fair" as this would make DS effectively useless. Others have very much explained the reasons so please read them over thoughtfully.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795918#Comment_3795918
If someone wants to tell me 90%+ of their games on some killer is swf seal teams, yes.
Now, where did they say that? Please, point us there. We'll wait.
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@ChuckingWong said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795896#Comment_3795896
Because you are lying.
Not even streamers who play this game as a career see SWFS in their lobbies at any high rate. We are talking 1/10 games for those people. And their MMR is higher than yours.Meyers is a pub stomper because of 3 addons his kit has. Any soloQ team loses to him if he is running stone/stone piece or mirror. Or hard skill issue on the meyers….
My that's a bold opinion to have. Someone experiences something different and they must be lying?
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@SoGo said:
So... everyone can agree that Territorial Imperative sucks. Yes? Good. Now, here is a silly rework idea:
Territorial Imperative
When a survivor enters the basement, they become Exposed until they leave, lingering for 5/7/10 seconds. This effect only announces itself once a survivor is downed.
This perk is disabled while a survivor is hooked in the basement.
Ohhhh we like, though maybe give it a small CD for when the survivor gets unhooked? Don't want super easy trades.
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@Backmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3795411#Comment_3795411
In 5. I mean that you would not deal with ds or of the record if you not hooking and they really strong right now especially if bond together. They busted because one perk make you 80 sec god mode and other make 4 sec stun and its huge especially if combine with haste perk (stan duration should be decreased for 2 sec just my opinion, thats also the only way to stop bodyblocking with ds cause now survivors doing this cause they now they can run away to far). In 7. i mean that knockout for survivors the same as blast mine and head on for killers - annoying and make game miserable.
...we still don't see how off the record is tied to slugging...off the record does nil for slugging, the one using it can't even pick up a slug as that turns it off. Does not compute.
That aside, that "god mode" of off the record isn't a "god mode" as they're required to not do anything or else it turns off..all for a single hit. Meanwhile DS, which also turns off if the user does things, only really works if you're tunneling. Doesn't matter the reason you tunnel, if you tunnel it works, if you don't it don't. If they body block you can hit and move on as rarely will that single hit cost a game less your in a terrible spot already or you choose to keep chasing. It's your call. There's also the small fact that both turn off at the end.
We restate our point, many things are annoying and makes the game miserable for someone. Ex: For us running into the basic B build (3+ meta slowdown) is annoying and makes us miserable because it's the same damn thing time and time again while as killer we couldn't care less about blast mine. What is the deciding factor?
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@Backmon said:
I read many people say on forum that this perk need change and i agree with it but not in this game state. Killer equip this perk much more often and there is a reason for it. I see next reason why this perk should not change at least for now
- All perks that requied hook became gutted into unusable state (both pop and pain res garbage right now)
- Hook timer increased (Main reason why killer became slugging more often)
- Insta sabo toolboxes
- Busted background player and champion of light
- Overpowered Ds and Off the record
- Strong genrush options for survivors that slugging can prevent (bnp/specialist/Weaving Spiders and etc)
- Annoying busted survivors perks like blast mine and head on (same way annoying to deal with as knockout, so if knockout need a nerf this 2 survivors perk need too)
Untill all this problems would not be solved knockout should stay the same
- They're still perfectly useable (and a certain pair are still bloody often used at that)
- Hook timer has had near nil effects on those not staying by the hook and really is only being used as an excuse to slug at best
- Now we talking about a single box or a squad of these with the sole goal to annoy the killer?
- Neither are busted with the later one being used more at pallets or blast mines (on the rare occasion we do see it). If you added flashbang you might have a point with all the complaints about going through the killer (though we have yet to see it personally).
- ....your really gonna need to explain how off the record is tied to slugging... That aside neither are overpowered (by our definition, we might need to ask for your definition) and DS, the perk, will only lead to being slugged if the killer is tunneling (for a good reason such as survivor taking a bt hit, or bad such as killer being [censored])
- ...Well technically you're not wrong since slugging stops pretty much everything survivors can do..…
- ...why and how are these tied to slugging? If we're going for just annoying, ignoring how it's subjective, then there's a whole list on both sides you can name.
While we don't care about knockout that much, these as reasons seem…odd to put it politely
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As of pretty much right now, NA East
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@ReverseVelocity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3794025#Comment_3794025
No, your definition of "broken" is extremely generous.
Plus those portmanteaus are just plain terrible.
To be fair brokenground player got a chuckle outta us
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We're kinda iffy on giving gen progress for them (especially since a perk came out with similar deal) but overall could be worth seeing depending on how it works. We'd rather it be something like a charge selfcare: break bones you get a charge to be able to heal your bones by yourself (at a reasonable speed)
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Definitely worth testing, though it might be abused by swfs going with a "can't hook me" gimmick.
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Midwich and Disturbed ward are our favorites. We like silent hill and theres been a special place in our cold dark hearts for the asylum since we started (probably cause all the fun/funny kyf shenanigans happened there)
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3793382#Comment_3793382
Yes, I've posted about how it was my least favorite time in the game..... Several times. That doesn't mean those perks should be made useless. Merely that the problematic parts of them should be changed while they still have some functionality. I also didn't rage quit, I started taking empathy so I could tell when a survivor was about to go down so that I wouldn't get hit with eruption. Poor counterplay, but it's what we had.
It's pretty silly to look at a perk and say "boy am I glad THAT dumpster fire is in the ground" like it aggrieved you personally. It's just a perk. It doesn't bear you any ill will. Viable perks are good. Perk variety is good.
Then you know there was a damn good reason it got nerfed like that. Even then it was rather even handed in that its still useful for a handful of killers (wesker, huntress, oni, the like), it just doesn't have the major "uggggg" factor with it. What you did does not mater in this context, its what the killers running this wanted (least the impression it gave off).
It's pretty silly to look at a perk and say "boy am I glad THAT dumpster fire is in the ground" like it aggrieved you personally. It's just a perk. It doesn't bear you any ill will.
While we agree its just a perk people can be glad for whatever reason, gots no right to control that (mocking is fair game).
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3792415#Comment_3792415
Yes. It needed even-handed nerfs like every other perk that gets double and triple nerfed like iron will, DS, ultimate weapon, ruin etc etc. No perk should be gutted into uselessness, it's bad for the game. There's no reason for it.
..... you did play survivor when it was the "eruption, brine, pop stall till survivors rage quit" era right?
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@Oxah said:
Punishing bad behaviours is a way to mitigate alot of the problems this game has. A minute for first warning that resets every 24 hrs is way too soft. Youre better off playing the game if the first punishment would be something between 5-10 mimutes. Other games does it and does alot more strictly than this. Removing features of the game because of a minority of people spam dodging just seems unfair to the ones who cared about these little nice things about the game. You queue for a game? From the moment you join the lobby people should take accountability for leaving.
Preaching to the walls here mate
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@Astel said:
I am tired of this "devs favor ~~side" statement. Can we stop this nonsense?
Bet a cookie that within a week a new user will pop up and make an "favor this side" post
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We now have a new drinking game.
Anywho, our response and probably all the reasons sensible people need are already here if you go digging.
@Rulebreaker said:
We're late to the party but here's our two cents
They can't make hiding prestige optional. If someone hides it, the others assume (killers or other survivors) and dodge. It'd be like not hiding it at all. Making it that only killers can't see does not stop survivors from dodging people who they perceive as bad due to prestige.
Having a punishment for leaving the lobby doesn't undo the damage it does when it happens as the matchmaking gets screwed and tried to make a match asap. It wouldn't be as accurate since it prioritizes time over quality, and the overwhelming majority want time. And lastly, why implement a punishment when simply hiding prestige bypasses this issue (lobby dodge) just as well if not better (a good amount probably won't care about a small penalty)?
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@Oxah said:
And the damage is done to the lobbies they left. Also have you met the players of this game?
I would say that it would be a one time thing after that change has been implemented, since they won't get any different result from shopping a couple of time, the player base that does shop will learn that it is pointless. Sure, on the spot the very first moments it won't be as good as it's going to be when the whole community knows about how LOBBY MMR works.
Also off topic...but yeaaa it's a problem. For what it's worth, it has gotten better than when we started (way less death threats)
When I say bad behaviour, bad behaviour doesn't explicitly means egc rudeness but everything from lobby shopping, purposefully throwing a game to the egc toxicity.
3.I can't know for sure as I have never done it myself. I wanted to wait for my friends to get to p99 of theirs and we all prestige together to 100 in a pre-lobby. I know for a fact that this very situation won't happen as how lobbies works now.
4.@alen_starkly(page one of thread) mentionned a very good example of what I meant.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/O5ERRDPFWAS7/screenshot-2024-09-02-214014.png
there's no such thing as an easy solution at the point where they are at now regarding the mmr in my opinion. To be quite honest, i never thought that the MMR wasn't fair. but after much consideration it is clear that these things needs to be related. When I first typed this thread I did not think of it as deep as of now, which is only fair after considering the opinions of other and not only mine. Again, I want to find a middle ground where expression is not hindered and the experience of speed and quality is met on an equal spectrum.
1: You used player base and learn together and that makes us skeptical. The snark aside, as long as its the lobby mmr and not individuals problem one is technically solved as far as we can think of relating to your goal. We'll remind it'll bring a host of other problems and we three personally DONT want this solution, but it will work enough to get to the goal.
When I say bad behaviour, bad behaviour doesn't explicitly means egc rudeness but everything from lobby shopping, purposefully throwing a game to the egc toxicity.
Well the first one is going down slowly, the second one is slowly rising, and as we said the third is falling. We call it a win from before.
3:
I wanted to wait for my friends to get to p99 of theirs and we all prestige together to 100 in a pre-lobby.
…So…we're going to not explode in a bile of vitriol…and calmly re-explain the alternative someone made and we proposed. The pre-lobby where you gather your friends for a swf together would be able to see prestige. You and your friends could easily do that with this option…
4: Welp they can still match each other, just can't be based on prestige. Our sympathy (and patience for that matter) hit a low after point 3…That aside as long as your able to solve the problems we pointed then thats the way you'd want to go. What we see is something we think will be worse but thats not the concern as this is your goal.
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👏👏👏
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Well both are workable (the shorten time one seems silly to us but that personal bias) but if anything we feel the tokens just need to be abit harder/more risky to get. We're part of the "in chase to recharge tokens" group as that seems like a good way for survivors to get more tokens (granted we haven't thought very hard on it) as currently competent stealth survivors can shadow the killer and be immune to aura reading with little risk forever (yes map dependent, yes impractical to actually do so). There's also multi floor maps where tokens recharge with even less risk. Short version: earn back tokens a harder way.
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1:
if by shopping, they see that the avg mmr does not change and it remains the same. at some point or another this person will accept and stop shopping. It would require an insane person to keep shopping for a higher value for hours, hell even minutes.
And the damage is done to the lobbies they left. Also have you met the players of this game?
They will see that whatever lobby they land, they always get the same MMR and they won't care as much for prestiges
This point is why everything needs to be connected otherwise the system fails. let players show their prestiges if they want to it will not matter. With what skill level is shown, you can SEE that skill value SEPERATELY from the rest.
So you are advocating for showing mmr and prestige correct? This is different from the original post/idea but if this is what you want we'll play along. So aside from the problem of mmr not being a great indicator of actual skill (ex: tunneling, being left for dead on first hook, hook swinging causing a calvicade of bad for the remaining survivors, the killer 2 hooking everyone then letting them out, etc) as well as the "player" factor problems, this would allow your desire of showing prestige (people would more than likely focus on the mmr number) but we will ask that if you really want to go down that path of showing mmr and prestige then go fight for the mmr of the lobby and not individuals as that would effectively reintroduce the problem.
Quality of matches is directly related to MMR.
Subjective and for us that statement is false. We'll elaborate if you want, but that's off topic.
The middle ground is what needs to be found for said mmr system and it is not an overnight the issue is fixed forever type of deal. I would also like to add that I feel like moderation of bad behaviours(lol) is extremely poor in this game. It wouldn't hurt anybody to get a little more of a punishing side on these behaviours(lol) that we obviously don't endorse.
Also off topic...but yeaaa it's a problem. For what it's worth, it has gotten better than when we started (way less death threats)
2: Correct it has been answered.
3: ...umm yeah it kinda will be the same for the average p100 rank up. The only thing you can't do currently is go from p99 to p100 in front of randos. Actually now that we think on it it's the same because you can post it on the forums like a handful do already. Also trying to claim "fair" will not sway us as we've seen what others here have considered "fair".
4. Those that bother to care about things like prestige and perks the others brought will stay (or atleast look) at the end. This allows people to "show off" whatever. What fun interactions are now gone because of this change? As for "speed over quality" (for the solution of hiding prestige) think of it like this: They had a solution that's easy to implement, helps with the problem, doesn't break anything (or really shouldn't), and don't have a better alternative at the time (or moment). What reason would they NOT use it? As for speed over quality (matches), the mmr (as far as we're aware) pulls from where it last left off once someone leaves. Meaning the next closest might be relatively equal, but its more like 1/3 equal and 2/3 going to either be better or worse (mmr wise, actual skill varies).
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@Oxah said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790792#Comment_3790792
- If people knew that they were getting matched in a lobby were everyone is of equal skill, regardless of prestiges or all the reason they did wouldn't hold as much weigh to them. What I mean by this is say tomorrow matchmaking lobby shows mmr(lobby avg mmr) for everyone and the "lobby shopper" sees that he is matched with people of equal skill(everytime he is dodging the same avg mmr is shown to them), all petty assumptions made from said shopper wouldn't weigh anymore. I feel like people who dodges wants to have individuals of similar skill as theirs and will always find a way to do so if there's no metric for them to do so.
- As I understand it, you are looking at this from a killer perspective when you say "look for a easier match". If the killer can't see survivors prestiges/names/crossplay, that solves that part. They don't need to know anymore than just which survivors(being dwight etc). For survivors showing off to each other. it's fine IF point 1 is addressed in the fashion I am suggesting(with still giving the option to hide their prestige to whoever wants to).
- These points connect in all aspect and needs to be addressed together otherwise singleing out one thing I suggest can't work. Here's the certainty: I want survivors to be able to choose if they show their prestiges or not to their teammates. If point 1 is met somehow(I do not have any better idea other than displaying lobby avg). The incentive to dodge based on petty reasons becomes null.
- It was my goal and i wanted to get the feelings you get when you get when you p100 your survivor with your friends. Why can't I do that when everyone could in the past? Let me experience it. Ego or not it is for a fact removal of a feature/charm/appeal/incentive. If it is an ego thing in your eyes and you "mock" it, why is it such a big deal to let me show it?(considering point 1 is met, again) so yes, it is a bit of both but in my eyes it isn't a bad ego thing but moreso pride in what you did. Nothing of this prestige badge shenanigan defines skill nor the MMR.
I hope to have made my stance on the matter clearer to you and your friends or anyone still reading this thread
1: We feel that isn't the case. Sure maybe a handful will be looking for a "equal" match but as we've stated, many look for easier matches. They couldn't before find guaranteed equal matches (prestige does not equal skill after all) and they can't now. It also has nothing to do the question and issue with making prestige optional as this would be showing mmr, a different type of number with little meaning.
2: We aren't just looking at the killer prospective. Survivors do in fact dodge each other too. One survivor could be looking for a group that will carry them for example. What your suggestion for point one is is to show mmr, not prestige. If your adamant on that you should be advocating that, but people above are helpfully and occasionally indirectly explaining why we would think it's a bad idea.
3: You say teammates so why is that alternative not good enough? Because you can't show strangers? We also want to make clear that if either point 1 (yours or ours) is addressed people will still dodge on petty reasons, it wouldn't become null no matter what. We do admit that you're way, with what we are understanding is showing mmr (nothing to do with hiding prestige mind you >.>), would reduce some lobby shopping, but we would all be debating by how much and it also adds its own problems. Having the lobby average would be interesting, but not as effective as currently hiding it (if someone notices the average is higher or lower than what they want, guess whats gonna happen…), while also defeating the purpose to show others your prestige.
4[?]: You still can and your pointedly ignoring that. You also keep using the word "friends" and we got questions. What is stopping you from taking a pic, screenshot, whatever of you as a p100 and sending it to friends? What is stopping you from showing them at the end of a match you play together? What is stopping you from simply telling them? What we think you mean is strangers/everyone else. Which the end of the match, we again state, shows. Its not a big deal to show prestige, however it has cause people to dodge lobbies [fact]. To help with this the devs have hidden prestige. We again state it can not be optional feature as explained in point 1. We agree prestige doesn't equal skill, but has it stopped people from lobby shopping based off of that? (The answer is no) By hiding prestige it removes one thing people can try to base shopping off of and is actually helping the games health.
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@Oxah said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790698#Comment_3790698
I do not have the energy nor the motivation to convince you folks of anything because clearly you say that my arguments are not good enough but this is based on your opinion and I did, multiple times I would add, address as much as you are throwing at me. Yet nothing seem the make your opinion on matter budge. I do not know how to put it in different words, accusing me of lobby shopping when I queue 4 stack 85% of the time is something wild to me. I am not here to defend myself but to address my concerns and what I cared about. Sorry if it didn't match your persona ideology or whatever you're picturing your trio as.
We've re-read everything and still haven't seen answers to the following issues:
1: You can't make it optional because then its just the same as not hiding it.
Players dodge based on prestige, we can debate how much but this is a fact. If you make it optional players will also dodge based on that since your "hiding" something. You've said in a past post: "Again, in ANONYMOYS MODE FASHION. Which means, the pestige icon would be HIDDEN." but as far as we can tell it would only hide that players prestige no? Should someone notice they cant see that persons prestige they will base that to dodge as if it was shown anyway. Ex: "I can see everyones prestige but I cant see dwight's prestige, he must be a p100 or noob, im not going to take the chance [proceeds to bail]". Making it so if one person hides it then everyone is hidden? Not gonna work either. Ex: "Hey my prestige is hidden, someones hiding something. [bails]." This is the main point of arguing about making it optional. You can show everyone or no one at the beginning, but making it optional does not work for this reason. This is also the reason A/B/C test would not work (we FINALLY figured that one out [took embarrassingly to long]) How do you solve this problem?
[———]
2: How can shoppers actually shop with even less info to go off of?
You've said before (or as we understood it atleast) that assumption is a root problem. We countered with how hiding prestige removes an assumption which you then go on to say that dedicated shoppers will use more ridiculous methods. We then say that it then doesn't become shopping (the definition we use is: "Intentionally looking for an easier match by repeatedly leaving and joining and looking at different lobbies of players") as its effectively random leaving. How are they able to actually shop this way as its just guessing thats more random than before? (prestige does not equal skill yes, but the shoppers put enough stock in it to think so and hence used that)
You also said this: "If killers never can see the prestiges of survivors they would NOT dodge. It would be the same as of right now on that matter." because it has now finally happened via hiding prestige. Also you "As for survivors, people already dodge anonymous modes,default skins, globe players, this won't affect anything in that regard." your correct but neglected something. Now survivors wont dodge due to a teammates prestige.
[———]
3: Uncertainty about what you want.
From what we gather you simply want hiding prestige to be an option, consequences be damned as we see from here: "Hiding is not a problem in itself. It's hiding it for EVERYONE that is the problem for me. I don't want to hide it. It should be an OPTION." Why? Since the first problem still stands its like not having an option at all, only the illusion of it. You can still even show off all that dedication at the end screen so why is it so important to show it at the start where people can still dodge? If you say something along the lines of "accomplishment" below has a rebuttal.
You also said this previously to kit_mason: "My fun was increasing that meaningless number." We ask why it stopped being fun since you can still increase it. Ego? You said its not an ego thing with: "removing features from the game isn't about ego really, it's about people working together towards a goal and being able to monitor your friends progress without needing external means to do so." yet in that same comment we have: "We need to understand that it's a badge and letting showing off their dedication to whoever they want is a goal in itself that many PVP GAMES encourage."….that bolded part is explicitly an ego thing. Also you: "My opinion on the matter remains that it should be something to be proud about and if I want to be proud about it I should be allowed to show everyone I am a proud to play X character to that point." You wish people to be allowed to show off their prestige which is also an ego thing, specifically their egos. We all agree having some ego in a game isn't bad, but you are also contradicting yourself.
We even offered an alternative with someone else's idea, but you said: "I will say and agree that pre lobby is obviously part of the equation for me, but it's not the whole thing". By "whole thing" do you mean that you want it shown across the lobbies or "whole thing" as theres another reason? If so whats that reason? The above "must be an option regardless of anything else"? You wish to strive towards your goal of becoming p100? Nothings stopping you but you. Have it have meaning by being able to show others? Those that actually care can see at the end screen, you can still tell your friends, and the alternative offered allowed it for friends (and shanghaied swf mates) to see before the match (and remember one of your "solutions" was having killer never see prestige, so having it shown in the normal lobby would be pointless and random survivors may still dodge if teammates outside the swf can see prestige).
Lastly you say you don't want to leave from their decision. The fact that your thinking of leaving because of that decision paints your intentions in a much different light. We are giving the benefit of the doubt and not accusing you of wanting to lobby shop, but from our eyes somethings off if something like this is gonna make you go. You can still go to your goal, you can still show off to friends, you can still show off to randoms at the end…like what the hell? Maybe its us not understanding but the way it looks is defiantly not good.
These need straightened out before we can even attempt to come up with something satisfactory. What explicitly do you want.
[———]
We may be harsh, but we are genuinely trying to help you find a middle ground you'd like. We went out of our way to line up all the problems we've had no answers to, can you solve these definitively or at least to a "good enough" standard by the masses?
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@Oxah said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790465#Comment_3790465
I will say and agree that pre lobby is obviously part of the equation for me, but it's not the whole thing. The fact that you 3 thinks the same of that matter prove it's going to be hard to agree on that matter. I would say 15 of my private dbd friends in the server I have been in for the past 6 months think otherwise of that decision. but I'm trying to not bring my own echo chamber into the conversation has we as a group both obviously do not pursue the same goals as you 3. My opinion on the matter remains that it should be something to be proud about and if I want to be proud about it I should be allowed to show everyone I am a proud to play X character to that point. Why is everyone so hostile to a meaningless badge as so much of you folks, to the point of mocking it? Can't we be proud of achievements and want to show everyone? I sure as hell do, I love this game. I don't want to leave because of a poor deciscion(in my perspective), I want to stay and keep playing for the very goal I have been playing this game for! So I voice and I say this with heart, I want to show that I am proud of what I have accomplished in this game and it was a very nice way to do so! But now I can't and I'm a little sad about it. Cheers to you 3.
It only hard to agree on the mater because you are not putting good arguments or facts against our points. You haven't really stated a solution to the problem of what would happen if hiding prestige became optional (and some of our points you outright simply seem to ignore). If you want a hope in the fog to sway us, you need facts as we're semi reasonable (long as it don't concern
object).Now before you try painting us and our friends as some villain group we will remind the class that we Rulebreakers are chaotic neutral (the other's alignments may vary but we think everyones neutral something). Not all of our mocking is hostile (as some friends do have p100 chars and they're equally mocked), but to the point: There have been countless p100s who keep trying to act like their amazing as survivor, keep trying to agrivate us into getting our attention as killer, in general act like dip sticks and care to gues what happens? They fall…often, hard, and many will even swing on hook when it happens despite the team doing good (we occasionally think its shame but thats us being petty).
My opinion on the matter remains that it should be something to be proud about and if I want to be proud about it I should be allowed to show everyone I am a proud to play X character to that point.
Can't we be proud of achievements and want to show everyone?
While your opinion is your own there are two facts that you should be aware of. First: You can have a p100 char without ever touching them (that in of itself is actually funny). Second: Your still free to be proud of it and you can still show everyone, at the end screen. Its not like its hidden at the end (we think, we admittedly don't pay attention to prestige so as of this typing we don't know if its hidden at the end screen, we'll see soon) so after the match is done everyone who wants to show off can and those who care can see then.
I don't want to leave because of a poor deciscion(in my perspective), I want to stay and keep playing for the very goal I have been playing this game for!
Thats entirely your call but with all due respect, we feel thats a pathetic reason to leave. Its not affecting balance, how the game plays, adding broken things…its just hiding a simple badge till the end so people dodge less in the beginning. If you really loved this game as much as you claim, this should not be the straw that breaks the camels back unless there was an ulterior reason that this is affecting you so much (we're looking at the accusations of you wanting to lobby shop).
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@Oxah said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3790192#Comment_3790192
- Hiding is not a problem in itself. It's hiding it for EVERYONE that is the problem for me. I don't want to hide it. It should be an OPTION.
- Good for them? I don't know what point you are trying to make on this one. If they are getting dodged and have a decent mmr @low hours and feel like they need to hide their badge, well there would be an OPTION for it.
- It's the currently available solution because they didn't explore any further than a YEAR ago on an A/B test. if the player in question is good against most killers and have a weakness against one, that is the player concern to improve against said killer. As it always been for MMR based PVP games. Sure they will lose MMR facing SPIRIT. But most of the time if they are good against most killers they will see an MMR increase over time because sure you can run against a killer more than once, but the consistency will outweigh that.
- ^
- it's not healing it's a matter of time before people that were lobby shopping increase their criteria for them to not dodge, if they did it in the first place when a meaningless badge was displayed, you can bet they'll keep on doing it until it affects them gameplay-wise.
I appreciate the time and the concerns you put into your messages, these are great way to work towards a solution that pleases everyone. I would also like to add that a prestige means PRESTIGE, which in every other game I know, is ELEVATED/REWARDED. I want DEDICATED survivors to be able to show it to their friends/others. I love this game and I want everyone to know it, even if they don't care. Freedom of choice on this matter is what I am an advocate. Other games gives you badges/borders in loading screen, a number that MEANS something to these people. Something that people gets on the game and works towards for.
- We've and others have stated before exactly why it can't be optional without defeating the purpose of hiding it in the first place. If you wish us to repeat it's because hiding it is the same as showing it. If you hide it when it's optional, the others assume and dip (there is a very specific cadavet otherwise we will mention further below 👇)
- The point hours can mislead people into expecting something just like prestige does (and obligated f no to dodging). If they make hiding prestige a OPTION then they're (the survivor in the example) going to be dodged repeatedly as stated why above.
- "It's the currently available solution because they didn't explore any further than a YEAR ago on an A/B test." Your going to need to elaborate on this one. Are the results not good enough or something ? (Assuming this next part was the answer to our question) Are you using mmr as a way to judge skill? There's MANY flaws with that if so.
- Repeat above
- Seems to be healing to us, admittedly this is limited to us 3 so small pool, and the band-aid is at minimum stopping the bleeding (this is more fact as there is a noticeable decrease, small pool or not). At that point it would be random dodging them instead of shopping, which is what hiding prestige intended to do.
We still doubt you'll find what you're looking for, but you're polite enough that we'll lend a claw. Most of our groups think prestige as a mockery, just throwing that there as food for thought.
Now as for that specific cadavet mentioned above, someone on the forum made a post asking to show prestige in the prelobby lobby, the lobby where swfs group up (don't know who posted as I personally did see not do I wish to hunt it down). Would this be acceptable? It allows people to show off to friends or strangers they grabbed for a swf without outside content, is hidden in the actual lobby so killers and randoms don't see it and start running and screwing over matchmaking, and is still shown to everyone at the end.
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@Oxah said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789795#Comment_3789795
- You can check peoples steam profiles
- SWF bringing a low hours person in their game don't dodge them(???)\
- There's a limit to speed over quality if the game is going to lead to survivors killing themselves on first hook when they figure that their teammates don't fit their skill level.
- ^^
- it is a band-aid solution.
- Then hows hiding prestige a problem if they do this? We can also come with variants of making profiles private, but that seems irrelivant.
- No because A: you might get compitent players, B: Hours are slightly misleading. Some of our friends really only play Dbd for Kyfs and have gotten better than many under 1k hours. When they occasionally go on their own or in publics, it feels almost unfair how easy it is for them.
- Yet thats the currently available solution. The other one we can think of is fix players (not happening), but finding somethin else is what the discussion is for no? Besides that we do have a question: how would you measure skill levels? Lets say someone is amazing at running most killers, jukes, knowing counter play, yada yada. This survivor however absolutely sucks against spirit. How would you measure that? Theyre good against most the cast, but a potato against spirit. And aside from that, theres already a unnatural amount of people swinging to death.
- The above point.
- Yet its a band-aid that works and is slowly healing the problem, if even a little (lobby dodging specifically). Showing prestige is effectively not having a band-aid. Sure you'll live in the moment but its going to be irritating and the wound will fester if left as such causing long term damage.
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We dislike the coldwind and swamp maps the most. Basically maps where locker spread is bad so it's not wholly specific realms.
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@Oxah said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789626#Comment_3789626
I am no advocate for lobby shopping but we got to shed light on the matter and address the reason WHY people do it. If X player goes in a match and has let's say 2k hours. Then look over to his teammate that has a p0 dwight that just started playing the game. Can you really blame the guy who dodges? Why are they getting in the same lobby in the first place? Why would the game not match equally skilled players in a lobby and say one survivor leaves and replace said survivor with someone with same skill level as the rest of lobby? This my friends, is the REAL culprit. This is what needs figuring out. Not a prestige badge removal in a lobby.
If X player goes in a match and has let's say 2k hours. Then look over to his teammate that has a p0 dwight that just started playing the game.
So how does he know that the dweet has just started? You don't get that from prestige.
Can you really blame the guy who dodges? Why are they getting in the same lobby in the first place?
First off yes as that's kinda the start of this whole mess. Why they're in the same lobby can is most likely either swf or backfill (which was caused by someone leaving in the first place).
Why would the game not match equally skilled players in a lobby and say one survivor leaves and replace said survivor with someone with same skill level as the rest of lobby?
We explained previously that people wanted speed over quality. Once someone dips out, matchmaking wants to fill the hole ASAP.
This is what needs figuring out.
Simply prioritize quality over speed. The people will complain about waiting forever for matches though.
Not a prestige badge removal in a lobby.
Yet this does help reduce lobby shopping while at the same time being quick and easy, was requested, helps p100s not be targeted (we have admittedly not seen it but have heard many whining about it), and hurts nothing but egos.
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@Oxah said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789321#Comment_3789321
I have zero p100s. I am just trying to find a middle ground where everyone is happy with the lobby changes. Including the other side of the medal. I posted various solution ideas and yet here we are again.
Fair enough, but sadly this is as we've said, it's an all or nothing deal. Either show it or hide it, but optional doesn't work in this scenario.
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@Oxah said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3789301#Comment_3789301
removing features from the game isn't about ego really, it's about people working together towards a goal and being able to monitor your friends progress without needing external means to do so. Ego in a PVP game is not a bad thing to an extend, especially when it's meaningless in terms of skill. We need to understand that it's a badge and letting showing off their dedication to whoever they want is a goal in itself that many PVP GAMES encourage.
Well now here's the thing: convince vs thing that can (and does according to the test bhvr ran) help the game. Since you can already track progress, either external with friends or on the end screen for randoms, we'd rather stick with what helps the game overall. It really REALLY feels like an ego thing, but hey, maybe you can prove us wrong.
We agree some ego isn't bad, it's just what that ego causes the players to do is where our problem lies. This showing off badges is causing people to leave lobbies (fact as was tested and we sincerely doubt the devs would bother making a conspiracy) which then screws the matchmaking, which then causes the complaints about unfair matches and all the things that go with it.