Rulebreaker
Rulebreaker
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Theres a lot of factors to the answer. Is there something specific or an in general?
If we were to give a quick & butchered answer is because people come with expectations and see a small picture of the whole game.
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@doobiedo said:
⁶
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820600#Comment_3820600
I mean you can downplay the statistical advantage all you want but its the only truly objective measure so..
Also the devs have literally said they want the killer to be the stronger role. I'm not even saying thats wrong, but they have gone a bit too far making survivor especially solo que feel too oppressive. Sometimes even slight changes can make a big difference. And as for dcs and hook suicides, I look at that as more an indicator of the problem, whether it makes killer easier or not is not really the point. Mmr is definitely an issue in my opinion as well because there seems be no rhyme or reason who I get matched with. I can be on a winning streak and get matched with brand new players and killers, then on a losing streak match with expert players. I mean we can argue about this forever but the spate of survivors giving up; if it just bratty baby survivors why is it worse now than it has ever been from most accounts, including even times when there was no d/c penalty.
The statistics your following, the 60/40 kill rate if we're correct, does not explain the how it got there like we've said. Is it around there? Yes, but is it because killer is easy despite survivors best efforts or is it because of drits whom keep giving in at the slightest inconvenience and throwing the rest to the wolves? Were it the first we'd might be inclined to agree killer is easy, were it the second then we'd disagree. Unless you got some official breakdown we don't know about we can't in good (relatively speaking) conscious follow this for role difficulty.
We think the opposite in that the DC and swinging is part of the problem. It makes the survivor role artificially harder and plays hail Mary with the MMR which is why (we think mind you) that you see no rhyme or reason. It only counts escapes or kills so a survivor who's good but keep getting swinging teams and keeps dying due to them will fall till they either get teams that pull their own weight or killer who are leagues below them and things like that. That's not even going into swfs but by the entity we went on a useless rant didn't we.
As to why it's worse now is probably cause the quality of people went down, but that's pessimistic so we'll go with wdk. And no, it was worse when the penalty was gone, we can currently at least go 5 matches on average without someone quitting in the first minute.
The devs wanting to make killer the stronger role does not mean they made it easy.
We've also just realized everything here is everyone's opinions and people, us included, are debating it like facts that killer is easy or not.
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@doobiedo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820392#Comment_3820392
I mean there's too many factors involved for me to know without making it my full time job to analyze the game. I will say for just one example they keep making the maps worse filling them with unsafe loops and deadzones. Another example would be them adding all these aura reading perks but also nerfing distortion. I know you can say well this killer perk and this killer were nerfed as well, but thats why im saying you need to use some circumstancial evidence to see which side actually has the advatage in the game. In this case that evidence would be things like the statistical advatage killer has as well as the fact that the dc and hook suicding epidemic is worse now then it was when there wasnt even a penalty for dcing. Now maybe the problem is just with the mmr system, but I have a hunch that even though that is part of the problem it probably goes deeper than that.
Maps: While some have become what you said, just as many are the opposite (off hand we can think of about 6 and arguably 7 maps unless your definition of unsafe is a long the lines of "m1 killer can't do anything about it"). That's also not counting how some maps are beneficial or detrimental to certain killers. Offerings aside, it's RNG and affects both roles.
Aura/Distortion: You do have a point in that it does make it harder to stealth but at the same time there are tells for many aura reading perks. People don't need distortion to stealth, it's just easier with it.
In this case that evidence would be things like the statistical advatage killer has as well as the fact that the dc and hook suicding epidemic is worse now then it was when there wasnt even a penalty for dcing.
What statistical advantage can you use to confirm it's easy though? As we've previously said, that 60/40 has its own variables that don't tell the roles difficulties. The DC and Hook swinging is a player problem and shouldn't be counted as a "real" match ("real match" defined as: everyone playing and making a effort to escape/kill). Meanwhile yes DCs and hook swings make playing killer easier when it happens, but does that make the role itself easy?
We don't think MMR is a issue with this for reasons no one will listen to, but that's a different topic we think.
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@doobiedo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820378#Comment_3820378
Because the game used to be survivor sided and in trying to fix it Bhvr went too far the other way? I mean i dont know what kind of answer you want.
Details preferably.
For example: What did they lose, what do they have now, and what do killers have before and now that make it so easy compared to what survivors have currently.
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@doobiedo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820350#Comment_3820350
I think it is easy compared to (at least solo que) survivor because I have played.both quite a bit and it is just easy in comparison. Not to mention that statistics show it.
Then you can obviously answer the question: How so?
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@doobiedo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820334#Comment_3820334
Killer.mains think it is not easy because every once in awhile they dont get a 3 or 4k.
…and thats why you think killer is easy?…
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@doobiedo said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820291#Comment_3820291
Well i would agree because when i play killer it is quite easy. When I play (solo que) survivor it is very hard. The statistics also prove it. 60% to 40%. No need for logical argument when simple arithmetic easily proves it.
See your not pointing to anything. That 60/40? Maybe its because killers are working hard to murder everyone. Maybe survivors keep screwing themselves over and bloating it. Maybe it is easy, maybe not. What we do know is from personal experience is that killer has only been stupid easy once in the years we've been here and that time has passed. Right now its not as hard as before but saying killer is easy seems ridiculous unless your against people who are way below you or they sabotage themselves.
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@mecca said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3820276#Comment_3820276
Both sides actually having equal chances of winning, skill matters for actually both sides?
Considering you dismissed claiming as an outlier, which is easily obtainable by anyone signifies you have no serious genuine interest in a fair game.
The reason MMR doesn't work because skill is not important. Survivors don't raise MMR. There is other discussions above mine that mentions it better than me. Survivor is extremely hard while killer is baby mode easy. It's wrong.
Can you actually list how its "baby mode easy" instead of saying so? Can you list actual facts in-game? Not what this or that streamer did. What you have done yourself or what you think makes killer easy.
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@upsideinsanity said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816815#Comment_3816815
Or, and hear me out, OR IDGAF if I get a 4k or a 4 out because i dont sweat it, its a game, I am here to have fun and hope that the people I play against do too.
Yes, I have gone up against good survivors, I have been 4 outed multiple times, I don't care. However those matches are few and far between. Killer is easy. The goal is for killers to get a 60% kill rate, meaning the goal for survivors BY THE DEVS is to have a 40% escape rate. Try telling me again killer is not easy.
…you do know that you not caring about "winning" as killer doesn't correlate to the role's difficulty correct?
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@use3113 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818752#Comment_3818752
The ones that can't do anything at all about guarding gates are: Bubba, PH, GF, Meyers, Freddy, Pig, Nemesis, Chucky, and debatably Vecna. Everyone else has either some way to move, guard, or check gates.
As doc it saves us from checking around a gate (or the survivor outsmarts us) and as Artist we don't fire towards the door we're going to, we shoot at the opposite. Firing at the door we're walking to would be stupid. All that aside, fair enough for those 2.
If the survivor is waiting at the exit gate to start openning it immediately, the only thing that will help you is being able to reach the exit gate faster (higher MS) or setting up a trap so they have to waste time. There are 37 killers, so half of the killer roster is 18.5. Killers with this problem:
- the ones you mentioned previously (8-9 killers)
- Nurse: she's actually slower than 4.6 m/s after factoring for the MS slows
- Hag: I would count this as 0.5 of a killer. She is 110% ms, so she walks to the exit gate and around the map slower. Survivors also don't have to disarm the trap. If they crouch on the trap and open the exit gate, they can open the gate without triggering it.
- Doctor (no way to reach gate faster)
- Huntress (also 110 m/s)
- Clown: his speed boost is only 10%, which is fairly minor. In the example I posted, it would drop the time to reach the gate from 22 s to 20 s, which is still an escape for the survivor after factoring for hit CD. I would count it as 0.5 killers.
- Legion (slower than 4.6 m/s after factoring for MS slow)
- Plague
- Demogorgon: it's still a 50/50 because if you tp to the wrong gate, you can't reach the other gate in time similar to other killers. I'll count it as 0.5 of a killer.
- Oni: only has speed boost if he has enough blood. I'll count it as 0.5 of a killer since this isn't always the case
- Deathslinger (also 110 m/s)
- Twins: Incapacitated doesn't prevent survivors from opening the gate, so Twins still has to walk there with 4.6 m/s
- Trickster
- Cenobite
- Artist
- Onryo, Dredge, Alien: heavily RNG on their TV, locker, and tunnel placement but I won't count them
- Wesker: very minor speed boost. Only saves 1.5 s after factoring for MS slows
- Knight: can reach the gate faster with Guard but still has to guess which gate to go to
- Skull Merchant: easy to evade her Drone now that it's only 1 scan line. Only saves 0.1 seconds from avoiding the scan line. Unnecessary to disarm
- Unknown: it's still a 50/50 because if you tp to the wrong gate, you can't reach the other gate in time similar to other killers. Though, I won't count him.
That's at least 18 killers. Even if wasn't, 40% (15 killers) is still a large portion of killers. There is undeniably at least 15 applicable killers on that list.
And yes, thats on the killer to make time to pre-setup at gates, as trapper I usually do near the start or when passing by so its not rocket science. You neglect to mention the times where theres ample opportunity to do this.
Not really. When watching streamers, I rarely see them pre-setup at gates.
If you pre-setup at the start of the game, that's a massive mistake. You wasted time setting up for something that won't be relevant until end game. That trap and time could have been used in a spot that will be useful in the early to mid game.
Cause the roles aren't equal in an asymmetrical game? Killer is the harder role as they're on their own. Survivors meanwhile have to rely on each other or theres at best only going to be 1 escape. With how often hook swings and tunneling have been survivors often lose 1/4th of their ability to contest the killer quickly and often.
Meh. Just give killers something else that matches the killer theme. I want free 2nd chances too.
Btw, there was no hatch when this game was released. It was added due to survivors holding the game hostage. Basically, when there was only 1 survivor left, they would perma hide since there was no chance for them to escape. Since there was no 1 hour time limit in the past, the game would last forever. As someone mentioned earlier, it was added as a means to close out the game rather than give survivors a 2nd chance. Devs should have just gave survivors their one 2nd chance (hatch) and ended the game after that. No need to drag the game out with another 2nd chance.
The hatch gives survivors a motivation to keep playing after something like that happens.
Hatch itself is enough to achieve that. There's no need to give another 2nd chance (exit gates).
Also, as I killer I would love to get some extra "motivation" when I have no hope of getting a 1k. It would also help solve the problem of survivors waiting at the exit gate to BM. Give me 2nd chance too.
Do you really need us to list how ranged killers can injure people from far away stopping progress on that door or how Nurse goes in straight lines ignoring all obstacles so hatch location is less affecting to her and so on? If your REALLY insistent on it, we will but if you stop to think about it, theres many variables in play (it will be a pain in the butt for us so please think on it).
Not really. When watching streamers, I rarely see them pre-setup at gates.
If you pre-setup at the start of the game, that's a massive mistake. You wasted time setting up for something that won't be relevant until end game. That trap and time could have been used in a spot that will be useful in the early to mid game.
Streamers are not us (getting sheeple vibes here). If they don't want to pre-set up early then they have less time later and maybe run into that problem. Its called "insurance" to us cause we're preparing for an outcome that might happen. Not everyone needs it, not everyone does it, but that doesn't mean that people don't do it or that its always a bad idea.
Meh. Just give killers something else that matches the killer theme. I want free 2nd chances too.
We have previously said that the equivalent would be to immediately end the game once hatch closed if you remember. If you really want some sort of convoluted "second chance" what would it be? And no, the OP idea does not fall under "second chance". It falls under "more advantage" before you ask.
Btw, there was no hatch when this game was released. It was added due to survivors holding the game hostage. Basically, when there was only 1 survivor left, they would perma hide since there was no chance for them to escape. Since there was no 1 hour time limit in the past, the game would last forever. As someone mentioned earlier, it was added as a means to close out the game rather than give survivors a 2nd chance. Devs should have just gave survivors their one 2nd chance (hatch) and ended the game after that. No need to drag the game out with another 2nd chance.
So what your saying is that the game should immediately end once the killer closes hatch as above. Thats what we hear and thats fine, we're going to play devils advocate though by pointing killers do have the advantage when it comes to finding hatch.
[The problem with the past is that it lead to true hatch stand offs. One side couldn't do anything without the other winning (survivors could take a hit from the killer and escape, the survivor could be grabbed out the hatch and get killed if not hit). Current hatch mechanics keep the game going instead of grinding to a halt…provided the last players don't sit with their thumbs up their arse.]
Also, as I killer I would love to get some extra "motivation" when I have no hope of getting a 1k. It would also help solve the problem of survivors waiting at the exit gate to BM. Give me 2nd chance too.
The only time a killer has no hope of getting a 1k is when they're severely outclassed by the survivors. We wouldn't know where to begin while also it not being pure BS to survivors. Survivors currently can only sit at the gates till the timer is up or they die (though admittedly we would also like something specifically for these types of players). We asked this above and will ask again: If you really want some sort of convoluted "second chance" what would it be?
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@use3113 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818476#Comment_3818476
The purpose of the video was to show that a scenario in which the killer cannot reach the gate in time before the survivor opens it exists. As mentioned, it was to stop the "he got stuck" comments.
First thats not the most optimal situation as the hatch spawn is RNG. Its just as likely to spawn closer and between the doors. Wraith got hatch far away from the doors, which is more favored to the survivor in this instance.
When I said optimal, I meant that no time was wasted in walking to the gate not that the hatch spawn was optimal.
Second while this is a more accurate depiction if they simply walked, many killers have ways to check/guard gates beyond looking and then theres mobility ones. Trapper and Hag can pre-trap gates, Artist can send birds, Doc's blast easily checks the area, you get the gist.
At least half of the killer roster cannot do this, so it is still a problem for a large portion of the killer roster.
This argument also assumes the killer has time to pre-setup at the gates. There is not always time and opportunity for this.
Also, for your example killers, Hag and Trapper were the only relevant killers. The info from Doctor and Artist are useless since the killer is already walking to the correct gate where the survivor is. Info will help you choose the correct gate to go to but not get there faster. In fact, using your power will cause a movement speed slow, which will cause you to reach the gate slower.
Third we're going to need specifics as you can look around while moving towards the gates, meaning you can potentially spot survivors from far off (map depending ofcourse).
That won't help since they are already waiting at the gate to start openning it immediately. When you close hatch, they will be on the gate not anywhere else.
And that gives the last survivor a chance to escape. It depends on RNG factors in these scenarios, a guessing game. Think about it like this, you see those doors in that clip? They're not that far apart. It took 15~ seconds to get within clear sight from almost across the map (wraith choosing the furthest door first is also another problem but its minimal) If OPs idea is implemented, the killer gets to the doors and could easily patrol those as an m1 well enough that escape is nigh impossible without the gate perks or unless the killer screws up.
Killer doesn't get another 50/50 chance after survivor finds hatch. Hatch is already a 2nd chance mechanic as the last survivor would practically never be able to escape with 2+ gens left. After closing hatch, survivors need another 2nd chance mechanic. Smh. I don't see killer getting a hatch that instant kills a survivor when they are about to 0k.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818477#Comment_3818477
It's a waste of time to discuss which side is favoured to find hatch, which is heavily RNG, without stats. There are millions of possibilities that can only be effectively summarised with stats.
P.S. this comment might appear multiple times due to a bug.
The purpose of the video was to show that a scenario in which the killer cannot reach the gate in time before the survivor opens it exists. As mentioned, it was to stop the "he got stuck" comments.
Fair enough.
When I said optimal, I meant that no time was wasted in walking to the gate not that the hatch spawn was optimal.
You specifically said:
Note that this example shows what happens in a perfectly optimal situation with 0 time waste, which is unrealistic
Your words specify the whole situation is optimal with zero time wasted (and called it unrealistic at that, but thats us nit picking) so you can't blame us for pointing these flaws out.
At least half of the killer roster cannot do this, so it is still a problem for a large portion of the killer roster.
This argument also assumes the killer has time to pre-setup at the gates. There is not always time and opportunity for this.
Also, for your example killers, Hag and Trapper were the only relevant killers. The info from Doctor and Artist are useless since the killer is already walking to the correct gate where the survivor is. Info will help you choose the correct gate to go to but not get there faster. In fact, using your power will cause a movement speed slow, which will cause you to reach the gate slower.
The ones that can't do anything at all about guarding gates are: Bubba, PH, GF, Meyers, Freddy, Pig, Nemesis, Chucky, and debatably Vecna. Everyone else has either some way to move, guard, or check gates. And yes, thats on the killer to make time to pre-setup at gates, as trapper I usually do near the start or when passing by so its not rocket science. You neglect to mention the times where theres ample opportunity to do this.
As doc it saves us from checking around a gate (or the survivor outsmarts us) and as Artist we don't fire towards the door we're going to, we shoot at the opposite. Firing at the door we're walking to would be stupid. All that aside, fair enough for those 2.
That won't help since they are already waiting at the gate to start openning it immediately. When you close hatch, they will be on the gate not anywhere else.
That one we did misread so apologies. The main point was you can move and look around (aka patrol while looking) since you only need to guard the power switch during end game, you don't need to deep investigate and map RNG decides how easy this is. For 2 extreme examples from both sides, think Midwich and Lerys. Midwich has super close doors that you can easily check the gates, lery's you more or less have to go out to make sure.
Killer doesn't get another 50/50 chance after survivor finds hatch. Hatch is already a 2nd chance mechanic as the last survivor would practically never be able to escape with 2+ gens left. After closing hatch, survivors need another 2nd chance mechanic. Smh. I don't see killer getting a hatch that instant kills a survivor when they are about to 0k.
Cause the roles aren't equal in an asymmetrical game? Killer is the harder role as they're on their own. Survivors meanwhile have to rely on each other or theres at best only going to be 1 escape. With how often hook swings and tunneling have been survivors often lose 1/4th of their ability to contest the killer quickly and often. The hatch gives survivors a motivation to keep playing after something like that happens.
It's a waste of time to discuss which side is favoured to find hatch, which is heavily RNG, without stats. There are millions of possibilities that can only be effectively summarised with stats.
Well, we could point out simple facts like what we said before~
Also yes, we got pinged 4 times…not entirely sure how that bug worked…
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@use3113 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818351#Comment_3818351
I think chasing the survivor is actually what causes hatch to be in favour of survivors and hence the aforementioned 60% hatch escape rate. When chasing survivors, the survivor usually leads the chase and they will drop every pallet. The survivor being ahead of the killer means they will typically reach hatch first. They also get the injured speed boost, which gives large distance on the killer. The best course of action for the killer is to fully ignore the survivor and just look for hatch unless they can easily down them.
Can tear many holes in that argument if you want, but it seems easy to us.
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@use3113 said:
Due to people constantly mentioning that he got stuck on objects, here is an example with 0 time waste. Power was not used to show what would happen on a generic 4.6 m/s killer.
Time to open gate = 20 sec
Time for killer to reach gate = 22 sec
If the survivor is healthy, they also get additional time from the 2.7 sec hit cooldown.
Note that this example shows what happens in a perfectly optimal situation with 0 time waste, which is unrealistic. The typical killer will look around as they walk, which wastes more time, and if the killer checks the wrong gate, there's no chance of reaching the other gate in time.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3816189#Comment_3816189
first of all the guy on the vid got stuck on onjects several times.
See vid above.
second you didn't show if survivor had gate opening perks.
They didn't. The clip has a link to the full VOD, so their perks can be seen.
Third i rarely get out with hatch standoffs. Especially because killer usually guesses gate right.
That's impossible. There are 2 gates, so at minimum, the odds are 50/50.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818417#Comment_3818417
See vid above.
See thats a more realistic depiction, though still has flaws. First thats not the most optimal situation as the hatch spawn is RNG. Its just as likely to spawn closer and between the doors. Wraith got hatch far away from the doors, which is more favored to the survivor in this instance. Second while this is a more accurate depiction if they simply walked, many killers have ways to check/guard gates beyond looking and then theres mobility ones. Trapper and Hag can pre-trap gates, Artist can send birds, Doc's blast easily checks the area, you get the gist. Third we're going to need specifics as you can look around while moving towards the gates, meaning you can potentially spot survivors from far off (map depending ofcourse).
Fourth:
killer checks the wrong gate, there's no chance of reaching the other gate in time.
And that gives the last survivor a chance to escape. It depends on RNG factors in these scenarios, a guessing game. Think about it like this, you see those doors in that clip? They're not that far apart. It took 15~ seconds to get within clear sight from almost across the map (wraith choosing the furthest door first is also another problem but its minimal) If OPs idea is implemented, the killer gets to the doors and could easily patrol those as an m1 well enough that escape is nigh impossible without the gate perks or unless the killer screws up.
Fifth, this maybe rude to ask so we'll apologize if its false, but are you just an alt account of the OP? You type very similar.
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@use3113 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818016#Comment_3818016
I'm not convinced survivors are significantly disadvantaged for hatch until BHVR releases stats for it. So far, the empirical evidence from Crypticgirl's 1000+ matches indicate around a 50% hatch escape rate and potentially even being favoured for survivors.
shrug to each their own but gonna say, its alot harder to not die looking for hatch when the killers chasing you
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@AbsolutGrndZer0 said:
Yes, you don't get points at all for a "Bleed Out" and it doesn't count as a kill for purposes of an Adept or Emblems.
We're pretty sure you get 50 points for the death and does count towards adept (this one we're not 100 on).
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3818163#Comment_3818163
The rewards you all mentioned sound pretty great. The idea that the better you do the better the rewards feels like a no-brainer. Maybe we’ve all outgrown Bloodpoints lol
Personally we'd like a guaranteed pip for an escape (despite the worries some of us have)
What’s the worry?
People using sole survivor + wake up + left for dead + [random] way more often to leave their team to the wolves when things look dicey and use these to get out alone.
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The thing that would probably be the most effective would also be something ridiculously crazy. The main problem we see is that there's rarely a specific thing to nail down. Some leave because they see a "losing" game and want out, others don't like this or that, etc. We don't think there's a reward that would be reasonable and would keep a majority.
Personally we'd like a guaranteed pip for an escape (despite the worries some of us have) and more of everything really. More iridescent shards for leveling up devotion, more rift exp, and maybe small amounts of cells too if we're being greedy. The idea behind this madness is the better you do in a match the more devotion exp you get to get these rewards while it works for both sides (well sans the pip part). It's basically a buff to what already happens but its what we'd want.
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@use3113 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3817082#Comment_3817082
It's not hypocritical, that's just the difference between Killer and Survivor role. It is not the same for Killer.
Aka I have no counter argument, so I'm just going with the strawman and vague argument of it "being different". You being so against killers getting a "free guaranteed" kill from hatch validates killers being against survivors getting a free escape from hatch. It's the exact same thing but with the roles reversed. You're being placed in the same shoes as killers and feeling the same thing.
You say the Killer and Survivor only have a 50/50 chance of finding hatch first, so explain to me why the Killer finds it first 90% of the time.
I'm starting to think it's a skill issue at this point with you never being able to escape through hatch and exit gates. Most killers are 4.6 m/s and survivors are 4.0 m/s. The theoretical odds of survivor and killer finding hatch can be calculated from this:
- Killer finding hatch = 4.6/(4+4.6) = 53.5%
- Survivor finding hatch = 4/(4+4.6) = 46.5%
It's basically 50/50.
Looking at your match history, "hatch escape" was mentioned 133 times out of the 1468 games played. Though, 1468 is much higher than the real number of games played since you included server crashes, cancelled matches, DCs, and other void matches. Let's make a rough assumption that hatch comes into play in 15% of games (hatch isn't contested in other games or the match is void), so 220 games are relevant. 133/220= 60% games where survivor got hatch. These are rough calculations but it shows that your claim of survivors getting hatch 10% of the time is completely false even when looking at your match history.
With both sides having similar odds of finding hatch and hence having to work equally as hard for it, I don't see a good counter argument as to why killers shouldn't get the same result as survivors when they find hatch.
However, when Survivors find hatch, they should escape, because there is literally nothing else to do at that point.
They could add something for survivor to do. Alternatively, they could give killer the equivalent result, which is a kill.
They aren't wrong though is the thing. Survivors have to find the hatch against a faster killer while simultaneously either staying hidden (outta sight, leaving as few marks as possible) or while being chased by the killer if found (dodging and looping to not go down and smart killers will corral them to spots they checked before making it harder). Killers don't have these problems and can also deny the hatch which then leaves it to doors. That's not counting the number of tracking perks killers have while survivors have 2 for hatch and 2 for doors. You can't use clean numbers as it simply won't work.
We would question what you'd have in mind if you have survivors something else to do. Say the hatch spawns closed and a key spawns somewhere. If the killer doesn't know where it is then the killer has to look around for the key while simultaneously checking doors. If they do see it then they gotta guard 3 places. We can keep going for a bit. The alternative equivalent for the killer would be to immediately end the match when killer closes hatch. We're not opposed to this, but just saying.
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@Jigsawbg said:
1-why there is killer like nurse in the game that break all mechanics?why she is not reworked?
2-why chucky have so broken power with 0 cd?
3-why there isnt mechanic to prevent facing 13 times from 15 games blight? Ban 1 killer for example
4- why tunneling is still in the game?why this is not reworked in such way that either survivors win or the killer?
5- why i cant see my solo Q teammates perks like in mobile version,if you dont know what to do in this game -copy/paste mobile game, their skins too
6-why every gen regression perk is killed except pop and pain?
6-why survivors items, addons and offering are still not reworked,75% from all of them are total trash
7- why there is killer who have power like pyramid head but he have 2 more powers?
8-Freddy,Myers,Onryo buffs when?
9-some killers addons reworks when?
10- skin with animation like mobile version when? Like the Nea one?
11-what was the point with the mori rework?1 guy to be slugged to dead so the last one to be found and before bleeding he get morried ?
12-why there isnt bleed buton ?
If i was working for bhvr i would make the game 10 times better
- She does not infact break every mechanic. Hooks work, pallets can work, blinds work, etc. Shes not reworked cause that would turn her into something less unique to placate the whining masses.
- He doesn't and does indeed have a cd
- Because wait times would increase by miles
- cause you can't remove it without survivors abusing whatever would stop it and it would remove player agency
- Cause people would lobby shop
- They're not
- Cause the power specifically like Pyramid heads power is weaker than his
- wdk
- wdk
- wdc
- If we had to guess to end the match in style
- A good question in our opinion, dont know
There ya go
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We vote an additional thing: Slugged survivors can heal other slugs back to injured.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814768#Comment_3814768
Closing hatch =/= survivor escape
Closing hatch = door game
Door game = small skill and lotta RNG aka luck
Closing hatch = no hatch stand off
If you don't understand that there is no helping you. (Granted we don't know why we're bothering to try in the first place)
Comparing it to survivors begging the killer to kill them would be funny if we thought you were joking. No it is not. All closing hatch does is give that survivor a chance. Possibly bad, possibly good, but it doesn't guarantee nothing except the end of the trial. Meanwhile survivors begging killers is basically tossing any semblance of RNG and is at the mercy of another player.
I literally linked a clip in which closing hatch = escape. The survivor was waiting at the exit gate to instantly open the gate as hatch is closed. Without mobility, the killer cannot reach the survivor in time to stop them openning the gate. Therefore, close hatch = escape. In the clip, the only counter play was waiting on the hatch until the survivor gives up.
Did you even read the whole thing?
Yes. As long as both sides have equal power to end the hatch stand off, both sides are equally at fault. You keep thinking the killer is more at fault, which is incorrect.
We got something for your logic below 👇. The past stand offs had neither side being able to do something without losing, currently "stand offs" are completely in the killers favor because they can close it and get priority when doing so. The old hatch mechanic was removed because people were sitting there for long arsed times. Like old 3 gen camp with eruption brine skully long. Maybe the devs think that the trial should end in a timely manner? Who knows, no one here knows what they think unless they explicitly say something.
Same as the current hatch stand off. One side has to accept an escape or death for it to end.
So first off when a survivor like us sees someone sitting on the hatch and decides to do the gens, what happens? We got nice stories about killers learning something~
I have no idea what you are talking about but if you did gens, that would be in the killer's favour. In that scenario, I would close hatch and immediately run to the completed gen. As a survivor, doing gens is strictly worse than waiting as a completed gen would reveal your location. Also, I would no longer need to afk on the hatch since I know the survivor is not waiting at the exit gate to open it instantly.
Second going by your logic above, if the devs don't think forcing one side to give up is a good idea, why would they make it easier for killers, who are trying to make the survivor give up, by following your suggestion?
The biggest reason is that if the killer found hatch, they should be rewarded for it. When a survivor finds hatch, they get an escape. When a killer finds hatch, they get nothing. There is a massive disparity between killer and survivor for hatch. Killers should be rewarded for finding hatch to make it even.
Also, I don't know why people keep thinking this is a massive buff for killers. This change would literally not matter for most games and would probably only increase the kill rate by 0.1%. In almost every game, survivors start openning the gate in the last 50% of the end game timer. The gates would be unblocked by then, so the gates being blocked initially would have 0 impact. I already explained this in my post:
The gate should be blocked for 15 seconds the moment hatch is closed. It won't be like No Way Out where it is only blocked when the survivors touch the gate. This change will only impact people abusing this strategy. There will be virtually no impact to survivors looking for hatch as normal since survivors typically attempt to open the gate in last 20%-30% of the end game timer and running to the gate takes more than 15 seconds most of the time, so the gate will already be unblocked by the time they reach it.
Also, the survivor is equally at fault. When the survivor hides, they are forcing the killer into giving up and closing hatch.
If they are doing this then they ain't doing the "strategy" of sitting and waiting at the gate then ain't they?~
No, and that doesn't matter. It's a problem when they are abusing the strategy. It's impossible to know whether they are using the strategy or not, which is why it's hard to counter it.
Again we state, you don't want to leave anything to chance. That's what it sounds like and that's what we currently believe.
False. My suggestion still leaves things to chance. My suggestion just prevents survivors from abusing the instant door open strat. Survivors still have a chance to open the door normally i.e. play the game normally instead of cheesing for the escape. I'm not against chance. I'm against a strategy that heavily favours survivors. The odds are like 80% in favour of survivor when using the strategy.
Actually everyone else explained why it's a good idea to bring them if you don't like the "strategy".
As long as you aren't fine with removing base kit Borrowed Time, you can't tell me to run No Way Out instead of patching hatch stand offs. There will always be a flaw in your argument, which you should run Borrowed Time or Off The Record instead of having it base kit.
And those times where hatch spawns between the doors on large maps, where you can see both doors? Then there's the times where you can get to those close doors despite the hatch being away. Then there's the times where the killer checks the doors before closing the hatch because they suspect shenanigans. Then there's the times where the killer brings perks like no way out. Killers can do more than sit on their butts next to hatch.
It's RNG, but it's a problem when it occurs. The old hatch stand off was RNG too. Both survivor and killer running to the hatch at the exact same time is complete RNG. Old hatch stand off was patched out despite it being RNG, so the current hatch stand off should be patched out too.
Both past and "present" hatch stand offs are caused by the players. People who currently sit on their butts wouldn't change because of this. Why give survivors any chance when they can sit and wait and get a guarantee (that's their thought process in our heads)? Your suggestion doesn't fix the problem, what it does is make things easier for killers.
We're not contradicting ourselves because as we've said, it doesn't fix "stand offs". It doesn't fix the problem of the player. It may make the "strategy" you have so much issue with harder, but has
nothingto do with a hatch stand off or the fact that the killer can and would still do it. Instead of a base kit change to counter this, try using said perks mentioned as blocking the powered door for any extended length is a hefty thing.I'm not against playing for doors when it's fair, but if it's heavily in favour of survivor, I would rather sit on hatch. This change is intended to make exit gates fairer by eliminating a cheese strategy.
You're still contradicting yourself. You keep mentioning that this change would "make it easier for killers, who are trying to make the survivor give up". This change only benefits killers when they close hatch. By saying that this change would make things easier for killers sitting on hatch, you are admitting that these killers would close hatch and hence benefit from the change.
I literally linked a clip in which closing hatch = escape. The survivor was waiting at the exit gate to instantly open the gate as hatch is closed. Without mobility, the killer cannot reach the survivor in time to stop them openning the gate. Therefore, close hatch = escape. In the clip, the only counter play was waiting on the hatch until the survivor gives up.
Ok let us be clearer then: Closing hatch =/= automatic survivor escape followed by the rest of that list.
Also the guy in the clip was getting stuck on smiling rocks and bamboo…is that the standard you want to go by? We also don't see the survivors perks in the clip, we're they running the only 2 things that actually speed up the gate (not that they woulda needed it if they kept that kinda pathing)? We can't see.
Yes. As long as both sides have equal power to end the hatch stand off, both sides are equally at fault. You keep thinking the killer is more at fault, which is incorrect.
You apparently conveniently forget that the killer can close hatch when they find it. What is equal power to you as this doesn't seem equal to us. The survivor has some blame sure, but for us the majority falls on the killer's shoulders because they can end any hatch stand off as soon as they find it. You claim we're incorrect, how so?
Same as the current hatch stand off. One side has to accept an escape or death for it to end.
Incorrect, one side can close a route and force an RNG based….round? Unsure of the proper word, but no its not the same. Neither side is in a stalemate to lose.
I have no idea what you are talking about but if you did gens, that would be in the killer's favour. In that scenario, I would close hatch and immediately run to the completed gen. As a survivor, doing gens is strictly worse than waiting as a completed gen would reveal your location. Also, I would no longer need to afk on the hatch since I know the survivor is not waiting at the exit gate to open it instantly.
Surprisingly your helping our point. You closed the hatch. Now we, who have left that gen that was away from everything, can play the door game. Now we, who may have sole survivor/ wake up will instantly open those doors when given the chance. Or if a key is in play via survivor or box we can do so. Doing a gen in that scenario works in our favor as survivor as you've proven by running to that popped gen.
The biggest reason is that if the killer found hatch, they should be rewarded for it. When a survivor finds hatch, they get an escape. When a killer finds hatch, they get nothing. There is a massive disparity between killer and survivor for hatch. Killers should be rewarded for finding hatch to make it even.
Also, I don't know why people keep thinking this is a massive buff for killers. This change would literally not matter for most games and would probably only increase the kill rate by 0.1%. In almost every game, survivors start openning the gate in the last 50% of the end game timer. The gates would be unblocked by then, so the gates being blocked initially would have 0 impact. I already explained this in my pos
Their reward is denying an escape route for survivors. You want more of a reward, we ask why? There's 1 survivor left, either the rest have escaped or died, and you've denied one exit they can use.
Also, the survivor is equally at fault. When the survivor hides, they are forcing the killer into giving up and closing hatch.
Thats not the killer giving up, thats them progressing the game 😔[theres no "face palm" emoji…sad days]
No, and that doesn't matter. It's a problem when they are abusing the strategy. It's impossible to know whether they are using the strategy or not, which is why it's hard to counter it.
If we're talking about abusing strategies, its gonna have to wait in line behind tunneling, which is hard to counter despite being obvious most times. Secondly it does matter as your whole issue is this strategy and they can't do both. Its on you as killer to try and figure out what your prey is doing.
False. My suggestion still leaves things to chance. My suggestion just prevents survivors from abusing the instant door open strat. Survivors still have a chance to open the door normally i.e. play the game normally instead of cheesing for the escape. I'm not against chance. I'm against a strategy that heavily favours survivors. The odds are like 80% in favour of survivor when using the strategy.
When the hatch spawns between both doors is it in the survivors favor? When the doors are close together or playing the map Midwich, is it in the survivors favor? When its a wide open map like the rotten fields, is it in their favor? Lets ask this, is camping to eek out a kill at end game cheesing a kill? [We'll even give you the answers as to what happens: yes = hypocrisy, no = theres no problem with survivors sitting at gates waiting for their best shot at escaping, Taking pieces of it = an effective answer of "yes"]
As long as you aren't fine with removing base kit Borrowed Time, you can't tell me to run No Way Out instead of patching hatch stand offs. There will always be a flaw in your argument, which you should run Borrowed Time or Off The Record instead of having it base kit.
We don't give much a damn about base kit bt, go for it. Others are going to complain, and probably with good reasons, but we 3 personally don't care. You should run whatever you think will help you best, for us thats running whatever gimmick build we have and getting better, but everyones different. So we repeat, run No Way Out.
It's RNG, but it's a problem when it occurs. The old hatch stand off was RNG too. Both survivor and killer running to the hatch at the exact same time is complete RNG. Old hatch stand off was patched out despite it being RNG, so the current hatch stand off should be patched out too.
Didn't you just say you weren't against chance just abit ago? Old hatch stand offs, as we've previously said, were removed because people would sit there for long times. This was because killer could grab the survivor out, but couldn't close it, while if the survivor got hit next to it, they escape during the wipe animation. Neither side backed down so the devs added a way for this to not happen via giving the killer a way to end it by closing the hatch. RNG aint a problem here despite you flip-flopping (not the perk) on it.
I'm not against playing for doors when it's fair, but if it's heavily in favour of survivor, I would rather sit on hatch. This change is intended to make exit gates fairer by eliminating a cheese strategy.
You're still contradicting yourself. You keep mentioning that this change would "make it easier for killers, who are trying to make the survivor give up". This change only benefits killers when they close hatch. By saying that this change would make things easier for killers sitting on hatch, you are admitting that these killers would close hatch and hence benefit from the change.
Ohh its fair. The killer has opportunities to look at the doors before closing the hatch, can use a plethora of perks (and some powers) to track survivors, some have mobility to do multiple things, and the door placement (plus hatch) is still based on RNG.
False, we aint contradicting ourselves. Firstly we were talking about hatch stand offs before moving on to your issues with this strategy. Second the whole quote by us:
Second going by your logic above, if the devs don't think forcing one side to give up is a good idea, why would they make it easier for killers, who are trying to make the survivor give up, by following your suggestion? We see it now, second to last survivor died, both doors and hatch open, and the killer can't close the hatch. All because people can't take the chance for RNG.
This asks why the devs would make it easier for killers when they are the ones trying to make survivors give up. It doesn't specify that it strictly benefits the killers sitting on the hatch, this is a benefit to all killers. So why would the devs help killers more when they are the primary issue in this scenario?
Third, we never denied that they would benefit (as stated, benefits killers across the board), we ask why they would still bother giving survivors a chance when they can continue to sit on the hatch regardless and continue this circus? Many (and we mean like 90+%) of those few who already sit at hatch waiting would very very much be willing to continue to do what they do with or without this idea. It solves practically nothing about any "hatch stand off" while simultaneously making it much harder for survivors needlessly.
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@Senaxu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814604#Comment_3814604
It's enough to just read these arguments here to understand what problems the community and also the devs have to deal with here.
Really amazing and I feel a little sorry for people who can only enjoy a game if they regularly have 4ks. I hope things get better for you at some point.
☝️ Srry failed to quote properly
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We don't, we want them to suffer
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We feel like your purposely doing these mental gymnastics to keep this zombie alive.
Closing hatch =/= survivor escape
Closing hatch = door game
Door game = small skill and lotta RNG aka luck
Closing hatch = no hatch stand off
If you don't understand that there is no helping you. (Granted we don't know why we're bothering to try in the first place)
Comparing it to survivors begging the killer to kill them would be funny if we thought you were joking. No it is not. All closing hatch does is give that survivor a chance. Possibly bad, possibly good, but it doesn't guarantee nothing except the end of the trial. Meanwhile survivors begging killers is basically tossing any semblance of RNG and is at the mercy of another player.
Both sides are equally to blame since both sides can give up at any time.
Did you even read the whole thing?
Similar to the old hatch stand off, the killer could just hit the survivor or walk away and the hatch stand off would be over. However, the old hatch stand off was still removed. This means that the developers don't think that forcing one side to give up is good.
We got something for your logic below 👇. The past stand offs had neither side being able to do something without losing, currently "stand offs" are completely in the killers favor because they can close it and get priority when doing so. The old hatch mechanic was removed because people were sitting there for long arsed times. Like old 3 gen camp with eruption brine skully long. Maybe the devs think that the trial should end in a timely manner? Who knows, no one here knows what they think unless they explicitly say something.
It's not easier. Objectively speaking, the best strategy to stand afk on the hatch until the survivor gives up. This is easier than closing the hatch and contesting the gates
So first off when a survivor like us sees someone sitting on the hatch and decides to do the gens, what happens? We got nice stories about killers learning something~
Second going by your logic above, if the devs don't think forcing one side to give up is a good idea, why would they make it easier for killers, who are trying to make the survivor give up, by following your suggestion? We see it now, second to last survivor died, both doors and hatch open, and the killer can't close the hatch. All because people can't take the chance for RNG.
If the survivor is looking for hatch instead of camping the gate, which they will be most of the time, checking both doors is basically an automatic escape because it takes too much time to check both doors thoroughly.
If they are doing this then they ain't doing the "strategy" of sitting and waiting at the gate then ain't they?~
Again we state, you don't want to leave anything to chance. That's what it sounds like and that's what we currently believe.
Already discussed in previous comments why this is a bad argument.
Actually everyone else explained why it's a good idea to bring them if you don't like the "strategy".
Not really. On large maps, it's almost certain that hatch will spawn far from the gate.
And those times where hatch spawns between the doors on large maps, where you can see both doors? Then there's the times where you can get to those close doors despite the hatch being away. Then there's the times where the killer checks the doors before closing the hatch because they suspect shenanigans. Then there's the times where the killer brings perks like no way out. Killers can do more than sit on their butts next to hatch.
You still haven't explained how it doesn't fix it. If the survivor can no longer abuse the strategy, why would I need to hatch stand off? You're also contradicting yourself. You said that No Way Out would counter the strategy, so you're admitting that No Way Out would solve the problem, which is similar to my suggestion.
Both past and "present" hatch stand offs are caused by the players. People who currently sit on their butts wouldn't change because of this. Why give survivors any chance when they can sit and wait and get a guarantee (that's their thought process in our heads)? Your suggestion doesn't fix the problem, what it does is make things easier for killers.
We're not contradicting ourselves because as we've said, it doesn't fix "stand offs". It doesn't fix the problem of the player. It may make the "strategy" you have so much issue with harder, but has nothing to do with a hatch stand off or the fact that the killer can and would still do it. Instead of a base kit change to counter this, try using said perks mentioned as blocking the powered door for any extended length is a hefty thing.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814395#Comment_3814395
It would. If gates were temporarily blocked on hatch close, survivors can no longer instantly open gate. This will kill off the strategy I mentioned and thus the requirement for hatch stand off.
Lets ask you this: Who has the power to close the hatch, thus preventing a hatch stand off? While both parties have some blame (the killer for the obvious, the survivor not doing gens when they figure out what the arse is doing) that situation can easily be avoided if the killer simply closes the damn hatch. So what we see is you asking for things to be easier for killer for your own reasons, not some thing thats needed.
That "strategy" will not help if you check doors either before you find the hatch or after and dont close it, that "strategy" will not help and the doors are close together, that "strategy" will not work if you have either "no way out" or "remember" me equipped. That "strategy" only works if RNG favors that survivor that specific day, and because RNG is fair, its an equal chance it will favor the killer.
This doesn't fix hatch stand offs.
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@adsads123123123123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3814182#Comment_3814182
Basekit to prevent tunneling & camping =/= Basekit to reduce the risk of Victims escaping.
What? If base kit Borrowed Time and anti-camp meter was removed, the kill rate would definitely increase. You're telling me if survivors had no Borrowed Time off hook and I could just instant down them as they got off, the kill rate wouldn't increase? Base kit anti-tunnel and anti-camp increases the escape rate far more than the change I suggested.
My suggestion = increases kill rate slightly
Base kit anti-tunnel and anti-camp = increases escape rate significantly
The first is to fix how Killers play in a way not intended by the devs (tunneling & camping),
False. The devs have already stated that tunnelling and camping is an acceptable strategy.
the other isn't against the intention of the game, i.e. Victims escaping.
False. My change is intended to fix a hatch stand off, which is unintended by the devs and why it was patched out in the past.
Fully comparable
Your suggestion doesn't infact fix hatch stand off. That was fixed with the killers ability to close the hatch. Your change is just what you want to happen instead.
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@Xernoton said:
Knight. I never liked playing against him and I hate playing as him, so that makes it even harder for me to understand how to counter this killer, which increases my annoyance towards him.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812743#Comment_3812743
As a Billy main my disappointment is immeasurable and my day has been ruined.
Sorry but the list don't lie😇
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We hate the saw bros. Billy we got a laundry list of reasons while bubba is more from past hate still being paid off.
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812659#Comment_3812659
I think we all need to see the video please.
As a bonus, apparently it's a lot of work to turn a small video into a gif file small enough to post here
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812598#Comment_3812598
but bought a glorious minute outta it.
😂😂😂
And wow, that moment of magic when the Survivors don’t realize that Light born is being ran 😂
Also had a nice moment like this. He was sable. (There's a video too)
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@HerInfernalMajesty said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812556#Comment_3812556
Any favorite memories? 😊
Had a match where we got down on death hook then a gen popped with the heal/exposed card. Juuuust so happened to be under a god pallet. Still died but bought a glorious minute outta it.
On the flip side had a match as Wesker (who's build runs lightborn) where grabbed a survivor off the ground only to have three beams pointed at us. We calmly stood there looking at them, shook our head and proceeded to use the remote hook. One of them was shocked enough at our audacity to let us get a grab (bound, infection grab, toss a survivor, whatever you want to call it).
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The last anniversary beat the previous holders. We loved the semi random effects that happened as the game progressed.
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@devoutartist said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812394#Comment_3812394
there's a alternative make it thematic make it only work when you're broken my no mither stongs would go up and there no way to abuse it out side of some situations like maybe ftp but honestly i would love for a ptb to see it with only works when broken and see how it would play out
Well, it's testable but we feel that would put it in a similar spot as calm spirit. But what the hell, we're feeling adventurous today.
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@Jellocubes1738 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812394#Comment_3812394
While i agree Dead Hard makes for an accessible body block tool, it's not overwhelmingly strong for this seeing as Mettle of Man works while in deep wound and body blocking in general is countered by killers that can ignore collision/ outmaneuver survivors/ have means of instant down. A lot of times DH can give survivors agency where they wouldn't have had any otherwise (e.g camping & rescues vs particular killers) but that comes with the trade off of having to interact with the killer to use the perk. Using this perk is not without risk this has changed ever since they removed the dash for distance that was problematic, now it requires not just precise timing but an actual prediction because you won't be moving far from the spot you used it and there's is a delay before you can take an action after use, the current invlun window is 0.5 secs so If people have a problem with the amount of skill required to use the perk then you can make it so you have added frames to the animation that aren't invlun frames so it does need a prediction to work because if the perk does not carry risk to use through its mechanics then implementing that risk factor through limited uses and additional requirements is not the way. You don't ignore hits with Dead Hard, I think something closer to that would be Off The Record, Borrowed Time, Babysitter and other Anti-Tunnel perks which i don't think Dead Hard should be repurposed into. You actively watch killer movements and predict what they are going to do in order to avoid death, similar to exhaustions like Sprint Burst and Lithe. To the people that are concerned with "not having a lunge" when playing against a survivor with this perk? Lunges are long winded telegraphed attacks unless you are using Coup De Grace around a loop where they have poor visibility. A lunge is so easily read that DH players can typically react instead of predict because of the amount of time it takes for the killer to complete a lunge - this being one of the weaknesses of lunging in the first place even vs people without this perk.
…That's a literal wall of text, so forgive us if we miss something.
It's not as strong as Mettle of Man because Mettle will ignore a down no matter what, exposed, deep wounds, etc. It also has conditions to activate and a decent "drawback" when successful.
There's like...2 killers that ignore collision, 4 if we're generous and stretch it. Meanwhile those instant downs only work if the DH user is healthy, if they're injured they can potentially take a hit and outmaneuvering a survivor is a skill thing so we're giving that the green light.
Them having to interact with the killer is A: naturally a part of the game, and B: some of the risk that comes with being able to ignore said hit. They can also still use it for those listed situations as long as they get the requirements and haven't used it on that...life state? (Don't know what to call it) as survivors choose when they use it unlike many of the perks listed previously.
Using this perk is not without risk this has changed ever since they removed the dash for distance that was problematic, now it requires not just precise timing but an actual prediction because you won't be moving far from the spot you used it and there's is a delay before you can take an action after use, the current invlun window is 0.5 secs so If people have a problem with the amount of skill required to use the perk then you can make it so you have added frames to the animation that aren't invlun frames so it does need a prediction to work because if the perk does not carry risk to use through its mechanics then implementing that risk factor through limited uses and additional requirements is not the way.
Now from what we understand of this sentence is you believe that you believe that adding limits and requirements to DH are not the way because it has risk involved. Being honest here, the three of us barely make heads or tails of the point of this sentence so a simpler explanation (or rewording) would be appreciated. If what we said is true, then we ask why should it not come with risk to ignore a hit?
You don't ignore hits with Dead Hard, I think something closer to that would be Off The Record, Borrowed Time, Babysitter and other Anti-Tunnel perks which i don't think Dead Hard should be repurposed into. You actively watch killer movements and predict what they are going to do in order to avoid death, similar to exhaustions like Sprint Burst and Lithe.
Soooo a few problems with this line of thought:
First: notice how off the record and BT give endurance the same as DH? DH is just on command.
Second: as we've said before, SB and Lithe are movement. You can still get hit and go down even if they proced while successfully using DH you keep going. How is that NOT ignoring a hit?
Third: We ask what you currently think DH is. Do you believe it is a movement perk?
Fourth: you have to actively predict the killer in any situation cause if you don't you die as survivor. For a example we love when people hold W and keep looking back as Artist. They often get so caught up by looking at our birdies that they don't notice how by trying to dodge them they are about to hit a wall. SB only speeds that up. DH could save their butts from that.
As for your last point, we're unsure as to where that came from but we'll play along. That point is in favor of DH having restrictions and limited uses because in those circumstances the survivors are likely to be hit, DH will prevent injured survivors from going down on reaction. If that could happen every time then there's going to be a lot of angry killers.
Hopefully we didn't miss something
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@Jellocubes1738 said:
- Main Point
All other popular exhaustions including Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced landing, Smash Hit, Background Player, Overcome & Head On don't get deactivated after you use them and don't require you to get hooked to use. Why should Dead Hard?
- Supporting Arguments
Sprint Burst, Balanced landing and Lithe can be used proactively and used multiple times in a match without sacrificing hook states while benefitting from perks like Vigil, Fixated/Self Aware and Blood Rush to help to restore and just straight up renew them for an additional use but Dead Hard doesn't benefit from any of these.
Exhaustions like Sprint Burst, Balanced Landing and Lithe give you distance without having to interact with the killer but Dead Hard requires you to bait a killer while in close proximity for the most part to get distance, this allows survivors to use movement exhaustions to travel to different places of a map faster or to an objective as well. There are exhaustions similar to Dead hard that don't give distance without requiring killer interaction like Overcome, Smash Hit , Head On and to an extent Background player but they are all refreshable. I don't see why Dead Hard has to be on a token-like system where you only get to use it if you get hooked and you can't use it again even if you manage to escape from the killer unlike other exhaustions.
- Additional Info
Exhaustions that increase movement speed are effective even while exposed while Dead Hard cannot be used when healthy so users of Sprint Burst, Lithe & Balanced Landing always benefit from being healed even if they are under threat of an instant down because they would be going down in 1 hit healed or not, exposed isn't always a constant threat and most times runs out or has conditions attached to it and being healed makes them naturally stealthier than an injured survivor. Dead Hard users have to decide whether they want to be healed or stay injured because if they stay injured they are more likely to be found through their pools of blood or grunts of pain, they don't have a health state to burn through regardless of if they mess up (e.g whiff the DH) if there's no instant down in play and if there's a killer that has a way of inflicting deep wound they're better off staying healthy (if there's no instant down in play) because if they do get hit they're in deep wound so they can't use Dead Hard, and if they don't the killer has the advantage of there being only one health state to down if they mess up.
Thank you for reading & Drop your thoughts below!
Counter argument: None of the previously listed perks can ignore a hit from the killer. Dead Hard is uniqueish in that the distance it give is due to ignoring a hit/preventing a down (giving another health state/giving on demand endurance) rather than it being a movement thing. Overcome extends the run distance of when you first get hit (movement) and Smash hit rewards stunning the killer with a pallet with speed (movement) but neither of these outright ignores a hit. Its closer to Head on but that also does not prevent you from going down. Basically the token system is so survivors don't have an annoying amount of life states like previously.
Exhaustions that increase movement speed are effective even while exposed
your own example of Overcome is an outlier here.
Moving on, the second part kinda shows the point. DH users have a potential safety net if they decide to stay injured while other survivors are a lot more at risk. Outright ignoring a hit is nothing small and should come with risks and skillful use.
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@KoreWaPantsu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3811546#Comment_3811546
Can't see the 4 slowdowns in any of my posts, I'm sorry. Running slowdowns is different from running 4 slowdowns, and, I repeat myself, I never say that.
Yet DeBecker was talking about running 4 specifically, and you respond. And if you wish to go that super technical route, we do not see them claim that you specified 4 slowdowns nor did you specify you were talking about anything less than 4 slowdowns.
oh, I forgot: never EVER mentioned about running 4 slowdowns as a forced choice. Stop putting words in my mouth, thanks.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3811278#Comment_3811278
To be frank it is a disadvantage if you're going to compare using them or not as those perks buy time. We're going to reiterate that it's not easy to do, but it's very much possible to win against efficient survivors without these.
hmm. i don't think so. i think efficiency > beat all killers especially if survivor use their progression perks or items. even with best killers, i still think you'd be at 0 gens. those various type of gen delay still matter even if though they're omega nerfed. the other perks on killer just don't have much relevancy until killer's base-kit pressure is improved(for good teams).
Then don't? You may or may not lose for a bit until you adapt but then you eventually get to the point above.
The thing, i can win like 90% of the dbd teams with whatever perks barring like…. weak killers… because i think that even weak survivors can beat weak killers even if killer is better than they are. after all, it is balanced for "weak" survivors to win in that case. The survivor just has to be below my skill-level as killer.
So in practice, i can use a variety of perks and win most matches. it is the very few matches that i do lose in which i find that i am playing at a drawback for not using the game-delay perks. that is the part that doesn't feel great.
Shall we repeat how killers are not reliant on slowdown? (can't speak for players, but the role isn't) It's a similar vein for survivors, they don't need to run those things to be effective, but it helps. If you think killers need more that's all well and good but we don't believe that killers need more regression.
fair enough. i just don't think 400% slower regression (0.25 c/s) is rewarding for killer. i don't see any killer agree with your point of view that killer's gen-kick or game regression is satisfactory. if anything, Ardetha's video is how most experienced killer feel about the game.
And we disagree. While its practically impossible to have all 5, good killers can kill good survivors without all poping.
The thing, i can win like 90% of the dbd teams with whatever perks barring like…. weak killers… because i think that even weak survivors can beat weak killers even if killer is better than they are. after all, it is balanced for "weak" survivors to win in that case. The survivor just
has to be below my skill-level as killer.So the word choice is again confusing. So before we say anything we want clarification please: 1. what is a weak survivor 2. What is a weak killer (im being told to remind that everyone is "viable", aka capable of winning, depending on how much they work for it [and maybe some rng for map]) 3. what do you mean by "it is balanced for "weak" survivors to win in that case."
So in practice, i can use a variety of perks and win most matches. it is the very few matches that i do lose in which i find that i am playing at a
drawbackfor not using the game-delay perks. that is the part that doesn't feel great.Well, we can not tell you how to feel, but we do think its a mentality thing. We have various gimmicky/themeatic builds we use and can win a majority of the time. While we'd never to say each of them are those truly efficient swats, we do get them occasionally and can still win with gens as slinger to demo to damn near everyone save a few who we as players simply suck with.
i don't see any killer agree with your point of view that killer's gen-kick or game regression is satisfactory. if anything, Ardetha's video is how most experienced killer feel about the game.
Shrug they can agree or disagree we cant control people and we don't care. Everyones got their own thoughts, though we feel many here have a sheeple mentality at times. If you wish we could explain our tin foil hat conspiracy theories on "experienced" players. Side question, Ardetha is the creator of the OP's video?
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@KoreWaPantsu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3811521#Comment_3811521
'cause it's always a skill issue, right. But this, of course, applies only for killers, as usual.
There's no point in arguing here, and btw: I'm against regression buff of any kind.
HF next.PS: oh, I forgot: never EVER mentioned about running 4 slowdowns as a forced choice. Stop putting words in my mouth, thanks.
It's not an happy choice, it's a forced one.
@KoreWaPantsu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810909#Comment_3810909
Because without slowdowns matches are even shorter, that's why.
It's not an happy choice, it's a forced one.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810903#Comment_3810903
As we've said many times now, the killer themselves provide the variance to the time it takes survivors to do their objective. If the killer is pressuring them then the survivors will be taking longer. It's going in circles here.
False, because your game view is totally survivor sided, even if you play killer (it's not the point here). The objective of the killer is to KILL. Not buying time AND/OR supply variance to survivors. The killer is not a tool, is a player like you, too ofter treated like a given service.
Yeah, gen speed is crazy, regression perks are bad for everyone, but it's mandatory or a killer will succumb in minutes (aka they'll not play at all).
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Hard =\= impossible
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@LordGlint said:
Saw a video recently where a survivor kept complaining about bloodlust anytime he got hit. The killer had rapid brutality, so there was 0 bloodlust that match...
Can you please send a link, we'd like to see a good laugh
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@Backmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3811283#Comment_3811283
They can still wait until timer run out and this not win but more comeback mechanic to help secure at least 2-3k if game gone too bad for them
We don't really care about the logic, we just like the excitement this will bring us
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While we disagree with your logic, we definitely wouldn't mind this being a thing. Would keep the tension even if everything got done quick, though people would be more inclined to immediately leave than rescue someone.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3811062#Comment_3811062
You keep either removing or ignoring the human element to this. Ignoring the fact you keep insisting its mandatory,
it feels like your at major disadvantage for not using game-delay perks as killer. the game shouldn't feel like you need a particular perk to be successful. I don't enjoy running gen defence on killers. i rather run perks that are fun to use and have wide variety of choices and play-styles for how i play killers. the issue is that it is not viable enough to do that as killer currently. It is way better than before the 80 second gens, at least early game is but gens still feel too fast for killer when your ending chases rapidly vs efficient teams.
On average though, most teams are not very efficient so winning games on average is easy if your an experienced killer with decent killer. the game only feels skewed towards survivor if survivor team plays very efficiently and is good at the game. some killer will steriotype and say that "SWF is imbalanced" and what not but i think survivor is ok in balance. it is just that killer base-kit/base game could be improved a little bit such that killer is less reliant on perks. I think some survivor also feel the same for like…. anti-tunnel perks/exhaustion or like aura perks for soloq. I am pretty sure survivors also would like to be less reliant on specific perks as well.
To be frank it is a disadvantage if you're going to compare using them or not as those perks buy time. We're going to reiterate that it's not easy to do, but it's very much possible to win against efficient survivors without these.
I don't enjoy running gen defence on killers.
Then don't? You may or may not lose for a bit until you adapt but then you eventually get to the point above.
On average though, most...
Shall we repeat how killers are not reliant on slowdown? (can't speak for players, but the role isn't) It's a similar vein for survivors, they don't need to run those things to be effective, but it helps. If you think killers need more that's all well and good but we don't believe that killers need more regression.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810958#Comment_3810958
this is a in general thing but we are genuinely curious as to why people think tunneling pressures the whole team. Until that survivor is dead, your only pressuring that sole survivor, anyone else in that crossfire is being inefficient (admittedly for a decent reason of trying to help a teammate). Every other survivor can pick and choose what gen to finish till the tunneled is dead.
I am going to use an analogy to explain this. DBD survivor teams for killer is like house of cards. Ever heard of the saying, 'A chain is as strong as its weakest link". if you pull the bottom card away from house of cards, the house of cards falls. that is what tunneling is in dbd. it is pulling the bottom card of the house so that house fall down. the house of cards being the survivor team in dbd. Not tunneling in dbd is like pulling top cards of house of cards. Eventually the house of cards fall down if you pull enough top cards but it is least efficient way to drop the house of cards.
a large part of killer is taking risks at the correct time and getting away with said risk. everything you do as killer is a risk that can backfire. as a result, there is no full proof one size fits all that can be applied to every game.
Second, rewards do not have to be regression or game-delay (though we wouldn't mind game-delay). Could be game speed up via something like everyones exposed. This is a literal split second thought, but hopefully the point stands.
Sure, you can give every killer a mechanic where every time a survivor heals for 2 complete health-states, the killer can instant down a survivor by any mean. that is just weird though.
We're going to repeat the following:
It takes 6 minutes basekit, but then you have many MANY killers stacking slowdown after regression after you, guessed it, more slowgresson. When the killer is efficient or better than the survivors, what happens when these slowdowns are added to the basekit?
if a killer regression is increased and killers continue to use regression, they will have super game-delay. survivor can counter super-game delay with generator repair perks. It is like asking, what happens if survivors receive borrow time after unhooking for 60 seconds and they use Lithe+Off the record+Decisive strike. The survivor gets super anti-tunneling if the killer tunnels off-hook. Do you think a killer will ever dream to tunnel off-hook when the survivor is moving 10% faster for 60 seconds and has all these extra form of protection? Survivor may still use anti-tunnel perks like Off the record to combat soft-tunneling. traditionally Distortion used to block aura reading for survivor to prevent them from being soft-tunneled out of the game but in just few days/weeks, Distortion will be nerfed and only form of aura immunity that is reliable long enough will be off the record. Survivors will continue to use exhaustion perks and decisive strike will still be decisive strike.
So the answer to your question is, the game plays as it does now with few modifications to the base game. Killer will have to hard-tunnel less and soft-tunnel more to win. they might one day nerf soft-tunneling however soft-tunneling might not get changed because less killer will see need to soft-tunnel if their regression/game delay is rewarding when the killer chases all 4 survivors and wins. the result is that killer impact on winning chases will have greater impact on survivor's ability to complete the objective then what it is currently. Survivors will need to play a lot better to escape.
We understand the house of cards analogy but at the same time we're unsure how true that holds in this game. We've been able to get 3 out (usually swf but occasionally solo) every so often so long as everyone else is competent enough [maybe match making screwed up somewhere but this is a passing thought]. If nothing else we see it like janga with tunneling picking a block blind.
Everything both sides do is a calculated risk. For killer it is usually more punishing should they screw it up, but thats the game. Both sides taking risks to try and "win" [everyone's condition varies hence the quotes].
as a result, there is no full proof one size fits all that can be applied to every game.
Then tell us why you previously tried to apply math for this little show?:
as i said, math is that if you just co-op every gen for 52 seconds and killer downs every survivor in 45-60 seconds, 5 hook = 5 gens
either way, moving along
Sure, you can give every killer a mechanic where every time a survivor heals for 2 complete health-states, the killer can instant down a survivor by any mean. that is just weird though.
Shrug To each their own, we'd prefer weird and fun compared to same ol same old. The point is that it doesn't necessarily have to be regression or stalling the gens.
if a killer regression is increased and killers continue to use regression, they will have super game-delay. survivor can counter super-game delay with generator repair perks.
And what will everyone see each and every game? Survivors bringing gen repair perks each and every game, which in turn causes more killers to bring slowdown ad infimum. We used to see stacked slowdown after slowdown each and every game before we went asleep, when we woke up there was bloody variety on both sides, we dont want that changed. Also:
Do you think a killer will ever dream to tunnel off-hook when the survivor is moving 10% faster for 60 seconds
quite frankly we've seen some try…they don't count for competent nor have any impact on our discussion but we're throwing that there…[also isn't it 30?]
You keep either removing or ignoring the human element to this. Ignoring the fact you keep insisting its mandatory, this hinges a lot on killers tunneling less. As long as it's perceived as the easiest path to bodies or salt, people will tunnel. We've seen people tunnel during the eruption era (and others have also claimed to see it during this time) where slowdowns were arguably the strongest (if not most annoying) and the killer was rewarded (while not basekit) greatly for doing well in chases (ignoring those that camped a handful of gens). This is an extreme example but it is proof to us that people will tunnel should they wish, regardless of regression. While it currently isn't as extreme as that example and we can not speak for everyone, to us killers are rewarded enough atm and don't need more.
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@KoreWaPantsu said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810909#Comment_3810909
Because without slowdowns matches are even shorter, that's why.
It's not an happy choice, it's a forced one.https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810903#Comment_3810903
As we've said many times now, the killer themselves provide the variance to the time it takes survivors to do their objective. If the killer is pressuring them then the survivors will be taking longer. It's going in circles here.
False, because your game view is totally survivor sided, even if you play killer (it's not the point here). The objective of the killer is to KILL. Not buying time AND/OR supply variance to survivors. The killer is not a tool, is a player like you, too ofter treated like a given service.
Yeah, gen speed is crazy, regression perks are bad for everyone, but it's mandatory or a killer will succumb in minutes (aka they'll not play at all).
…and we're totally survivor sided how exactly?…adding on if we're in some different reality where this was true how does the view make something false?
The killer (you, me, player number 703-40) is in fact a tool themselves. The thing thats nice is we chose how we wield ourselves here [almost sound like a fortune cookie]. We have also said this previously:
@Rulebreaker said:
Thinking you forgot about the myriad of perks that regress large chunks of progress. Besides, your focus should be killing survivors not killing gens.
the "variance" the killer is providing is to make gens take longer (variance: the fact or quality of being different. In the scenario the quality [and we've all using this wrong here btw, but its kinda funny atm] is time.) The killers are not buying time for survivors, they are buying time for themselves.
And yet again, we see the word "mandatory". We can go back and forth saying "its true" vs "its NOT true", but at this point we feel like we'd get further punching through walls than changing anyone's mind.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810903#Comment_3810903
survivor comeback should be in the form of looping and outplaying the killer in the chase. currently you do not need to outplay or loop the killer for any large particular amount of time to win. you just need be efficient on generators and survivor the minimum amount of time for each chase to succeed. as long as killer plays fairely and doesn't take shortcuts such as slugging, tunneling or camping, the survivor is likely to win.
as we've said many times now, the killer themselves provide the variance to the time it takes survivors to do their objective. If the killer is pressuring them then the survivors will be taking longer. It's going in circles here.
Killer do provide variance but variance is low impact. It is mostly on survivor to play inefficiently for the killer to be successful. The way killer currently deal with gen speeds is by tunneling. There are two forms of tunneling.
The first form of tunneling is called hard-tunneling. Hard-tunneling is when a killer finds a weak in a team and repetitively tunnels that survivor out of the game. Some player will say that this is least effective form of tunneling but it has some pros and cons for whether it is most effective or least effective way to play killer. Some of the pros are that you can ignore a lot of survivor perks playing this way but we should discuss the negatives. one such issue is that hard-tunneling leaves a lot of hook-states on the board and can be a poor choice if killer loses too many gens for that singular tunnel. Usually killer that employ strategy generally tend to Slug in end game because if you slug 3 remaining survivors, you can completely skip all remaining hook-states. So that is first school of playing killer efficiently. Killer player like this also tend to Slug survivor for pressure where they will leave survivors on the floor that are not hard-tunnel target.
The second school of thought for playing killer which some people argue is the most efficient way to play killer is method called Soft-tunneling. Soft-tunneling is when a killer picks two survivors and repetitively cycles hook on these two survivors. this method is often the most efficient way to play killer for some players because it also avoids all anti-tunnel perks while allowing killer to win in least amount of hooks which is 6(7) hooks. Like other strategy, it has some pros and it has some cons. The cons of this strategy tend to be that since killer is picking two survivors, other two survivor are free to push generators and play with super greed perks. this can heavily backfire if survivor has load out related to gen speed because you are ignoring 2 survivor completely in order to kill-rush other two survivors. Another pitfall of said strategy is bodyblocking and other forms of altruism such as hook-trading, hook sabotage, flashlight saves can delay kills when alternatively hooking the survivor. Stealth is another vulnerability. if you can't find two survivor your tunneling, you'll end up spreading hooks and playing right into survivors hands. there we have two schools of killer.
A lot of survivor player's find these strategies to be polarizing on the survivor end. They don't like playing vs killer that want to win the game. If we are to promote killer to not tunnel survivors for pressure, the killer needs to have rewards and incentives to not tunnel and spread hooks at base-kit. this means that killer needs base-kit gen regression and game-delay rewards to not need these strategy to win. Now whether these strategy should be nerfed remains a hot topic in dbd but one thing is for sure. almost every killer agrees that killer's base-kit game-delay is ineffective and not really useful. that is why video is talking about the numbers and how these number should be improved to promote killer for playing in more interesting/engaging play-style.
you just need be efficient on generators and survivor the minimum amount of time for each chase to succeed.
It might be your wording thats throwing us off but would that not be a survivor outplaying the killer? Cause really what else do you call that…
The variance killers provide varies on the player. There's no set level, some are able to provide enough to keep the survivors inefficient enough to win, others no. It's a human element in the mix on both sides.
The way killer currently deal with gen speeds is by tunneling.
Note that's how some (ok probably many) deal with it but how they deal with it doesn't translate as necessary and thats where we are arguing here. We don't need some in-depth tunnel definition as tunneling is not always efficient (ex: if you stay near a hook to tunnel survivors can do gens unimpeeded. The killer is being inefficient. ex2: If the killer is chasing someone across the map and drops that chase as soon as the unhook happens, but cant find the unhooked because they were smart enough to move first, then that's also the killer being inefficient. Ex3: trying to tunnel someone whos actually better than them).
If we are to promote killer to not tunnel survivors for pressure
This is a in general thing but we are genuinely curious as to why people think tunneling pressures the whole team. Until that survivor is dead, your only pressuring that sole survivor, anyone else in that crossfire is being inefficient (admittedly for a decent reason of trying to help a teammate). Every other survivor can pick and choose what gen to finish till the tunneled is dead.
If we are to promote killer to not tunnel survivors for pressure, the killer needs to have rewards and incentives to not tunnel and spread hooks at base-kit. this means that killer needs base-kit gen regression and game-delay rewards to not need these strategy to win.
Hate to break it to ya (ok not really) but those two things do not equal out. Specifically pointing at:
the killer needs to have rewards and incentives to not tunnel and spread hooks at base-kit
and
this means that killer needs base-kit gen regression and game-delay rewards to not need these strategy to win.
First, unless its borderline broken rewards or practically impossible to do, many killers will tunnel because its easy to do and often rewards them with dead survivors or salt depending on what that particular killer is in the mood for.
Second, rewards do not have to be regression or game-delay (though we wouldn't mind game-delay). Could be game speed up via something like everyones exposed. This is a literal split second thought, but hopefully the point stands.
that is why video is talking about the numbers and how these number should be improved to promote killer for playing in more interesting/engaging play-style.
We're going to repeat the following:
It takes 6 minutes basekit, but then you have many MANY killers stacking slowdown after regression after you, guessed it, more slowgresson. When the killer is efficient or better than the survivors, what happens when these slowdowns are added to the basekit?
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810873#Comment_3810873
While it's not easy, while it may not be fun, while whatever you want to believe, many killers can infact get by with the current base kick and regression that follows.
Yeah vs bad/inefficient play.
It takes 6 minutes basekit, but then you have many MANY killers stacking slowdown after regression after you, guessed it, more slowgresson. When the killer is efficient or better than the survivors, what happens when these slowdowns are added to the basekit?
If the killer is dominating chase after chase… the game isn't suppose to be close. the killer is suppose to win. not get draws or losses as i refer to them or just barely win.
Second, as many like us have stated, your goal is to kill survivors not gens. If you're harassing survivors, incapacitating them, yada yada it takes them longer to do gens meaning more time to keep that going.
That is literally my post. If killer plays fairely, ends chases quickly, the survivor objective is faster than the killer. The time it takes to objective has low variance. Like the difference is winning game in 4 minutes if killer is afk standing still vs 6 minutes with killer applying pressure. the game needs more variance for killer.
that is also why killer often dislike gen speed perks because they add more variance to survivor's gen time. you know… like why does survivor need 3 minute gens when afk and 5 minute gens when 4 minute afk/6 minutes is already too fast. those speed perk are only balanced if killer has gen defence perks in which case survivor is using perks to counter killer perks which many killer dislike that part as well but that is another story.
Omgs...against any group.
So what were getting ATM is that you don't want a comeback from survivors. You don't like how the game can switch from one side winning to the other (yes both sides can do this). That is what we got from this second paragraph. So we ask why not? It also semi proves that the math is never clean if things like that happen.
As we've said many times now, the killer themselves provide the variance to the time it takes survivors to do their objective. If the killer is pressuring them then the survivors will be taking longer. It's going in circles here.
We're pretty sure variance is not the best choice of words, "faster" seems accurate. This is just us being picky though.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810483#Comment_3810483
i cannot really believe that we are arguing whether killer viability to slow the game down base-kit is valid or too weak. Just look video's math. It takes 6 minutes to regress a generator. it is laughably bad. you have to playing dbd matches that last 40 minutes for over-time regression to work. DBD isn't a 40 minute game. Only in dbd would we ever argue whether 6 minute regression is balanced…. /shrug. It is like arguing whether a 6 minute cooldown for pressing R skill in league of legends is balanced.
Previously, i was against buffing killer gen-regression because 3 gen could potentially be too strong. Well that potentially became a reality so much so that dev needed to change some base-kit rules of the game to fix this problem. Now that 3 gen are fair and balanced, Killer need MAJOR buffs to regression. 5% regression IS NOT enough. In practice, it would be nice if killer got rewarded for doing a variety of actions that rewarded spreading pressure and playing well as killer but before we even consider killer being rewarded in many ways to trigger regression, regression itself needs to be rewarding. it is not rewarding and i don't think many killer will agree that 4x slower regression is well-balanced.
Don't go sounding like your accusing us, your apparently the one who refuses to believe that the killer influences survivor efficiency and all that.
It takes 6 minutes basekit, but then you have many MANY killers stacking slowdown after regression after you, guessed it, more slowgresson. When the killer is efficient or better than the survivors, what happens when these slowdowns are added to the basekit?
Second, as many like us have stated, your goal is to kill survivors not gens. If you're harassing survivors, incapacitating them, yada yada it takes them longer to do gens meaning more time to keep that going.
As we've stated, we don't see either party changing their minds.
Killers don't need major buffs to base regression (atleast currently, depending on what goes through the last change list we might change our minds). While it's not easy, while it may not be fun, while whatever you want to believe, many killers can infact get by with the current base kick and regression that follows.
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@Backmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810828#Comment_3810828
We have Lights Out example when second iteration of this mod died even faster than first one.
So define died for us as by our definition it did not and we'll play by that one.
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@Backmon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3810805#Comment_3810805
If gens would be the same as fast as before and all killers dont get gigga buffs this mode is already dead (at least for killers, survivors still can play lobby simulator)
We're pretty sure it's going to be fine enough, same as the last thing that was blown out of proportion. So again, we're going to sit and see.
