Jellocubes1738
Jellocubes1738
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@Ohyakno said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3812388#Comment_3812388
And yet it's still one of the most popular perks on the survivor side. Weird.
In any case no no no no. I spent years hugging the asses of every survivor trying to bait out E. I still do that, but only after they've been hooked. It was incredibly tedious.
This could be due to it being a fun perk to use and people generally enjoying using it. Which isn't a bad thing. In general i think instead of trying to make all perks have an equal chance to be used by balancing around perk strength, designing perks that enhance people's experience will go a long way in keeping matches fresh because the more perks with great design that change the game for the better the more perks in general that will be used because people like good perks. It's generally best not to have too many perks that do the same thing and if perks should have similar use cases, that they approach those use cases in different ways.
all i can say is that there's a reason that i still use the perk ever since the nerfs even coming into the game after its initial nerfs. because it approached exhaustion perks in the most interesting way to me and i hope to see more perks like it or existing perks repurposed to enhance the game the same way DH did.
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At the end of the day, From what i can see in this thread
@Jeido_Tengoku said:
Main Point
All other popular exhaustions including Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced landing, Smash Hit, Background Player, Overcome & Head On don't get deactivated after you use them and don't require you to get hooked to use. Why should Dead Hard?
The main difference between DH and your mentioned perks is, that DH kinda cancels a legit hit. The other ones just buy some distance which is a huuuuuge different impact.
Sprint Burst, Balanced landing and Lithe can be used proactively and used multiple times in a match without sacrificing hook states while benefitting from perks like Vigil, Fixated/Self Aware and Blood Rush to help to restore and just straight up renew them for an additional use but Dead Hard doesn't benefit from any of these.
You have special condition how to activate these perk, like starting to run and it works immediately or vault a window or fall from a highground. DH has passive conditions, what you consider bad, but the active condition is only pressing a key at the right time. Ofc its more difficult to use in get your canceled hit value, but its also a huge more value impact then just getting a bit mor distance on some more difficult prepared conditions.
Exhaustions like Sprint Burst, Balanced Landing and Lithe give you distance without having to interact with the killer but Dead Hard requires you to bait a killer while in close proximity for the most part to get distance, this allows survivors to use movement exhaustions to travel to different places of a map faster or to an objective as well.
That kind of view is kinda problematic. You shall NOT LURE the killer. Thats not what the perk is for. Its kinda like a second chance perk if you really need it and not if you try to produce a need. That point of view is another problem in our community. I see a lot of mates blaming the killer if they tunnel them right after they tanked a hit with the basekit bt or of the record. Like, yeah lets waste the time of the killer proactively, though these things were meant to prevent tunneling.
The other exhaustion perks have another goal. Get quick from a to b. Get more distance in need. Its not compareable.
There are exhaustions similar to Dead hard that don't give distance without requiring killer interaction like Overcome, Smash Hit , Head On and to an extent Background player but they are all refreshable. I don't see why Dead Hard has to be on a token-like system where you only get to use it if you get hooked and you can't use it again even if you manage to escape from the killer unlike other exhaustions.
Sorry, I will repeat some things, cause its also repeated some times in your post.
Overcome: I dont really get you. Its also a distance perk, but after a hit. So you get value from your hit and the killer will lose quite a bit of time, but the killer STILL gets a hit. Its not cancelled. He just has to decide whether to hunt you longer or change the target.Smash Hit: Smash Hit is ALSO a distance perk! In Addition, you even have to stun the killer with a pallet, what is a damn whole lot more difficult than just pressing a key, cause killers respect pallets pretty often. There are lithe and sprint burst a lot better to use and you get a similar effect. So yeah… also distance, no cancelling and activiation way more difficult
Head On: I give you a point, its not a distance perk, but also has a whole other meaning. It doesnt cancel a hit. Its not for distance. Its just to stun the killer for a niche moment like, protect a mate during chase. Also the condition its not really compareable. You have to use a locker, where you have to be some seconds. Even while you are chased, its pretty useless, cause the killer has to be kinda bad to lose you long enough. Also, even if you stun him that way, you wouldnt even get half of distance after stunning the killer as if you would get with DH. DH cancels a hit AND gives you distance.
Exhaustions that increase movement speed are effective even while exposed while Dead Hard cannot be used when healthy
Yeah thats true. On the other side, if you are already injured, you will still be able to survive. You will still only get deep wound.
users of Sprint Burst, Lithe & Balanced Landing always benefit from being healed even if they are under threat of an instant down because they would be going down in 1 hit healed or not, exposed isn't always a constant threat and most times runs out or has conditions attached to it and being healed makes them naturally stealthier than an injured survivor.
Thats not a strength of these perks, but the basic game mechanic. Its not a strength, so please dont try to put it that way.
Dead Hard users have to decide whether they want to be healed or stay injured because if they stay injured they are more likely to be found through their pools of blood or grunts of pain, they don't have a health state to burn through regardless of if they mess up (e.g whiff the DH) if there's no instant down in play and if there's a killer that has a way of inflicting deep wound they're better off staying healthy (if there's no instant down in play) because if they do get hit they're in deep wound so they can't use Dead Hard, and if they don't the killer has the advantage of there being only one health state to down if they mess up.
You are right, you have to decide whether you stay injured or not in some moments, but honestly, thats not a contra, but a benefit. With DH you are able to decide. Killer has insta-down? No, problem I stay injured and could tank a hit. The killer doesnt? Better, I am healed and could tank 2 hits.
I read your post multiple times and I think you have to much a view as a survivor, but not as killer. I play both sides and I will recommend it to everyone. And please, not only like 10% killer and 90% surv, but like 50/50. Otherwise you will NEVER get a good picture of the true current balance.
What you want is a perk with a huge potential impact, but without losing some benefits. Of course, DH isnt good for beginners. I also am pretty bad in using it, BUT if I will give it my all to master that perk. God it will be very, very strong and fine as it is. If you want to balance a game, you have to consider weak players, BUT also very strong ones. It cant be, that there is a perk that possibly beats a killer alone, just caused by the strength of one player.
Its the same as nurse. A beginner will have a harder time with nurse than with freddy, but if one masters nurse or even be mid with her, she is busted and one of the worst things in dbd.
A hit for a killer could take a lot of time if you hunt a decent survivor. Imagine what it would take if that survivor could tank an addition hit multiple times? Thats what happend in the past.
So, no! DH should have the same conditions as it has now. Its not in the least compareable to other exhausting perks.
The only thing what I could imagine to make it more beginner friendly is the following:
DH stays the same except:
- If you used dead hard, but you didnt get hit, it wont be deactivated (but still exhausted)
- If you use dead hard and tanked a hit successfully, it will be deactivated
Strong players wont have "much", but still quite a bit a buff of that perk. Beginners will get a huge buff at least.
Thats a quick idea, but has to be troubleshooted a lot. Its not something you should just do, but consider the consequenses.
BR
P1 - Dead Hard "Cancelling a Legit Hit" In your words here doesn't mean it has a stronger effect when activated than reliable distance from Sprint Burst & Lithe because the real strength of the perk comes from the movement speed increase that is base kit on all survivors when they get hit - as such I consider it to be at least comparable to a distance perk.
P2 - As i understand the second line of your post, you're pointing out that most exhaustion perks have 1 "passive condition" and Dead Hard is unique in that it has both the "passive" condition of running and the "active" condition of pressing the ability button at the right time and that it should be hard to use because it provides more value than SB and other perks like it.
I don't believe Dead Hard on its own provides more value than Sprint Burst or Lithe to the degree you need it to be single use per hook state while also requiring you to be hooked to use. The line this was in response to is mainly about the ability to use Sprint Burst and Lithe proactively - meaning in advance - before a survivor finds themselves in a position of risk while having the added perk of being able to utilize perk synergy in Vigil/Fixated/Urban Evasion to get back their exhaustion faster while in chase. This functionality being something Dead Hard in its current state cannot make use of. I think this limits build potential for the players that use this perk especially for those people that really enjoy the synergy perks aforementioned and have used these synergies before the Dead Hard changes.
P3 - Dead Hard is not and has not been an Anti-tunnel Perk like Off the Record or Borrowed Time. "It's kinda like a second chance perk if you really need it and not if you try and produce a need." - I'm going to create a situation for you, you're working on the last generator of the match injured when you realize the killer is coming your way with a Pop Goes the Weasel and the gen is nearly done but will not be completed without a hit. Let's say you brought Off the record and are still within the active window of activation, well now you've done a conspicuous action having been on the gen and you will not get endurance. With Dead Hard it will require a bait or in other words the killer to blunder but you have the opportunity to take an endurance hit and complete the gen where SB, Lithe or OTR would not have granted you that opportunity. Hence, because it requires the killer to mess up and precise timing/prediction from the survivor i don't consider it to be an Anti-tunnel perk as much as they have tried to repurpose it into one. added point Borrowed time and OTR will protect even a full health survivor from an instant down if within the timespan of activation but Dead Hard will not, only if the survivor is injured will they be able to protect themselves from an instant down. It's worth noting that Dead Hard cannot be used stealthily on its own because of the natural grunts of pain and pools of blood that is standard when injured, a condition for activation. so it's similar to Head On where Head On cannot be used (quickly) stealthily without Quick & Quiet like pairing Iron Will w/ Dead Hard. People underestimate the versatility in being able to scale distances and use distance perks reactively or proactively, for utility, defensively and offensively. There are many uses for Sprint Burst and Lithe that aren't just distance in a pinch and it is by no means a little bit of extra distance it is a sizeable amount that makes a huge difference if you use it at key times for the right purposes, in the right ways.
Dead Hard can only be used if:
- the killer is in range to hit you
- you actually get hit
- you time the Dead Hard accurately in prediction
- and you make use of the distance in a meaningful way knowing that you get it off
and can only be used for: body blocking, tanking a hit and some additional pressure on the killer in chase if the killer knows you have it which while i admit is extremely strong, It doesn't justify requiring a hook to use, it punishes survivors for playing well for example if you wanted to block for your vulnerable teammate endgame but you were never hooked.
I'll respond to more points stay tuned.
And thank you all for your feedback!
Good luck in the Fog.
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@Rulebreaker said:
Counter argument: None of the previously listed perks can ignore a hit from the killer. Dead Hard is uniqueish in that the distance it give is due to ignoring a hit/preventing a down (giving another health state/giving on demand endurance) rather than it being a movement thing. Overcome extends the run distance of when you first get hit (movement) and Smash hit rewards stunning the killer with a pallet with speed (movement) but neither of these outright ignores a hit. Its closer to Head on but that also does not prevent you from going down. Basically the token system is so survivors don't have an annoying amount of life states like previously.
Exhaustions that increase movement speed are effective even while exposed
your own example of Overcome is an outlier here.
Moving on, the second part kinda shows the point. DH users have a potential safety net if they decide to stay injured while other survivors are a lot more at risk. Outright ignoring a hit is nothing small and should come with risks and skillful use.
While i agree Dead Hard makes for an accessible body block tool, it's not overwhelmingly strong for this seeing as Mettle of Man works while in deep wound and body blocking in general is countered by killers that can ignore collision/ outmaneuver survivors/ have means of instant down. A lot of times DH can give survivors agency where they wouldn't have had any otherwise (e.g camping & rescues vs particular killers) but that comes with the trade off of having to interact with the killer to use the perk. Using this perk is not without risk this has changed ever since they removed the dash for distance that was problematic, now it requires not just precise timing but an actual prediction because you won't be moving far from the spot you used it and there's is a delay before you can take an action after use, the current invlun window is 0.5 secs so If people have a problem with the amount of skill required to use the perk then you can make it so you have added frames to the animation that aren't invlun frames so it does need a prediction to work because if the perk does not carry risk to use through its mechanics then implementing that risk factor through limited uses and additional requirements is not the way. You don't ignore hits with Dead Hard, I think something closer to that would be Off The Record, Borrowed Time, Babysitter and other Anti-Tunnel perks which i don't think Dead Hard should be repurposed into. You actively watch killer movements and predict what they are going to do in order to avoid death, similar to exhaustions like Sprint Burst and Lithe. To the people that are concerned with "not having a lunge" when playing against a survivor with this perk? Lunges are long winded telegraphed attacks unless you are using Coup De Grace around a loop where they have poor visibility. A lunge is so easily read that DH players can typically react instead of predict because of the amount of time it takes for the killer to complete a lunge - this being one of the weaknesses of lunging in the first place even vs people without this perk.