Reinami
Reinami
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3486247#Comment_3486247
Clearly, you haven't played lately.
People will AFK, outright throw, sandbag, point at hook, suicide or DC if they want out.
The DC penalty system hasn't made a difference in years. DOTA 2 is a highly competitive MOBA, iirc. Comparing that game to DBD, which is not even close to competitive, is hysterical.
- AFK : Ban them, they already have AFK detection in the game, if you do it often, get banned kid.
- Outright throw: Ban them, other games have "intentional feeding" detection, shouldn't be too hard to do the same thing here.
- Sandbag: Depending on what you mean by this, its already bannable (i.e. intentional body blocking) so nothing new there
- Point at hook: same as sandbagging or throwing, ban them
- Suicide: remove the mechanic from the game, its stupid anyway a 4% chance for the game to just suddenly swing in a different direction, completely RNG based, bad mechanic.
- DC: great, then they take the penalty.
Doesn't matter if the game is a "highly competitive MOBA" i could name dozens of multiplayer games that ban you for doing this kind of stuff. And many of those have matches that can last 30+ minutes at a time. Why is it so hard for the community to say that you HAVE to play that 6-7 minute game you just signed up for, when other communities can stick it out for 30 minutes or an hour? What makes DBD so goddamn special that it can't be treated like nearly every other online multiplayer team based game? Because every single one of these actions will completely RUIN the game for 4 other players. Why does this community excuse such selfish behavior?
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3486246#Comment_3486246
If you read my comment, I specified the system needed to be based on a Killer weight system.
For example, the MMR system we have currently. It wants to put you in "fair" matches, but it will put you into unfair matches if certain parameters are met.
The Killer Repeat System has to be a weighted system. The more Killers you get in a certain amount of time (which is completely up for debate), the more heavily it weighs that Killer, pushing them to the bottom of the queue. If matchmaking goes on for too long, that system goes out the window, just like MMR and it will prioritize speed.
Even a weighted system is going to heavily impact matchmaking.
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@[Deleted User] said:
It's not a free escape. Hatch is still a loss for them. They just get 5000BP as a compensation of inconvenience for the effort to find it.
I believe it was determined that it is considered a draw for MMR purposes for that survivor, but the killer is considered a "win" even if a survivor gets out via hatch. But point still stands, its not a win.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3486217#Comment_3486217
You cannot force people to play a game they aren't interested in playing.
All that will do is drive players away as they get locked into matches they don't want to be in.
Contrary to popular belief, Survivors do not DC all that often. I tracked the last time the penalties were off, which admittedly, was some time ago.
There was not a significant change in the number of suicides, giving up, AFK'ing or DC's across the board. When the penalties were off, there were more DC's, but as a whole the total number stayed about the same. It was slightly higher, but that's likely due to the novelty of being able to DC without a penalty, which would fade.
Yeah actually you can. You ever play DotA 2? You get 1 free leave a WEEK. And then you get a punishment for your 2nd one. Then on the 3rd one you get placed into low priority queue, where you get matched with the worst people in the game who leave games, or are extremely toxic, and your matchmaking takes 5x as long and to get out you need to WIN a set number of games. And in that game, games can last an hour plus, so saying you can't stick it out for a 7 minute game of DBD you aren't enjoying is pure BS.
That system is highly effective at making people not leave games.
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@Pulsar said:
First off, pause Infection upon unhook until that Survivor performs a Conspicuous Action or uses an item.
Secondly, add a Killer Repeat Prevention System but make it based off of weight. If you've played Wesker (or any other Killer) a lot in the last, say week, it'll weight other Killers higher. It won't completely ban Wesker (or another Killer) but it'll try to get you into a match with a new Killer.
That'd be my idea.
So if you read my post, you'll see that would have a massive impact on matchmaking. Because you are looking at this from the point of view of a single survivor, but you'd need to match 4 survivors with a killer while all 4 of them could have different killers they recently played against. This would make matches take a really really long time to get into.
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@ARTRA said:
No yet, i guess devs were surprised that people thinks (with reason) that Sadako is nerfed and they are working on it?
Also i think it will be cool if demanifested sadako can cross pallets. It could have a fun standoff like wraith. Cant manifest while in a pallet of course.
Would be pointless because survivor would just vault it back when they saw her go through it.
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@Spirit_IsTheBest said:
I decided that I will start up a "tally" system of how many Weskers matches I get per day, I will be updating this everyday until the DEVS add a system where you don't face the same killer all the time. I'm playing mainly survivor recently as well, I mainly play for about 3-5 hours a day mostly so the amount of Weskers really says something, here goes nothing:
Day 1 - Total Of 8 Wesker Matches Today.
See You All On Day Two!
Maybe if they buffed more of the weaker killers that are fun to play you'd see more variety. Problem is that wesker is the killer that has the best fun to strength ratio. He is both extremely fun and strong. Blight used to be like this as well, but people just DC/give up against blight too quickly so games are pretty boring.
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@itsHammyyy said:
adding DC bots while simultaneously keeping penalties is counterintuitive. people already kill themselves on hook or go AFK when they don’t want to play a match, and this will not change after they add bots.
i would much rather have a bot on my team that can actually do the objective than play a 3v1 or, worse, deal with dead weight on my team that’s dropping every pallet on the map out of spite.
remove dc penalties.
Almost every game will have a DC then, because survivors will DC if you look in their general direction or the second anything goes slightly wrong for them. So killers get to play with bots every game, and survivors get to not have teammates every game, making them DC. You'll effectively turn this into a PvE game because survivors will all just DC all the time (especially when a teammate DCs) and you'll be left with killers playing against bots.
Better solution is to keep the penalty, make it harsher on the backend, so you can't DC all the time, then remove the ability to ######### on hook. Its a stupid mechanic and shouldn't exist anyway
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@KolbyKolbyKolby said:
3, 4, Here's a couple more
5, 6, No other picks
7, 8 Gonna tunnel the Kate
9, 10, in a row again
😫
But for real can we have killer repeat prevention instead of map repeat prevention. 7 Weskers in a row got me thinking I'm playing Resident By Daylight
If they buffed some of the weaker killers you would probably stop seeing so many of the same 3 killers. The only reason you don't see nurse/spirit/blight as much is because people immediately DC/give up and it gets super boring.
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@nars said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3485631#Comment_3485631
How? Would kills just... not exist? What hooking a survivor 3 times gives everyone a permanent debuff to everything?
Hooks aren't eliminated, but they count more toward a win and the game is balanced around it, additionally i'd change hook states a bit to deal with camping and tunneling. But basically.
If you hook each survivor 1 time, and they all die on hook, i wouldn't count that as a win, that would be a loss.
If you hook each survivor twice, and they all escape, that would be a win for killer.
It makes more sense for lore reasons as well because the whole point is that the entity feeds on hope, not kills. So survivors escaping doesn't really "bother" the entity.
To deal with this problem i'd make the first scenario of hooking each survivor once basically impossible by doing the following:
- Remove the 4% mechanic, and rework/remove luck to do something else along with stuff like slippery meat. (Deliverance can stay as it is a 100% chance to unhook and not RNG based)
- Survivors now share the 1st hook state. Meaning, if you hook a survivor, then hard tunnel them, then immediately hook them again, they just remove a 2nd hook state from the teams shared one, they don't go into second stage.
- Second stage only starts when you remove the team's shared hook states
- Survivors can now only be eliminated from the trial at minimum on the 6th hook.
This will effectively eliminate camping and tunneling as viable strategies. Along with this, i would do a rebalance of the core game by either extending time on generators, adding a mandatory secondary objective, buffing the weak killers at an individual level, decreasing the power of loops, or some combination of that.
This would mean, that killer would basically be forced to spread pressure, and get a ton of hooks, rather than trying to eliminate someone as fast as possible, and encourage the more fun aspect of the game, which is the chase interaction between the killer and the survivor.
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@jesterkind said:
What would you propose replace it? Killing survivors is an extremely integral part of Dead By Daylight, it's been the killer's goal and win condition since day one. I'd struggle to even conceptualise of a version of this game that isn't based on killing survivors.
Hooks. When you base the game off kills, facecamping the survivor until they die secures you a kill, which is your goal. But if the goal was hooks, you would want to spread around pressure and focus on multiple survivors and multiple chases, instead of just slugging, camping and hard tunneling (although to a less extent). Which would be much healthier for the game.
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@BlueMoonBRUHMOMENT said:
So as of right now, generators take 90 charges/90 seconds to complete.
M1/non-movement killers can get slaughtered if their first chase takes forever. So to counteract this I propose that the first generator takes 120 charges, the second 105, then 90, then 75, then 60.
Whenever a generator is completed, the 15 charges will be subtracted from the total amount of charges needed AND the total amount of work done on the generator. This is to prevent a chain reaction of other generators close to being complete from popping without someone on the gen.
I believe this would help balance the game for m1 Killers, because I played survivor and I have seen a metric butt ton of movement killers. And some variety would be nice.
EDIT: Okay on second thought, I think this MAY be a bad idea because of perks like fast track, stake out, etc... But I think good discussion will come out of this so I'll leave it up.
This needs to be done on a per killer basis. There is generally an idea around killers and what their power does. Their power generally can do the following:
Ignore the numbers, the categories are what are important, but i wanted the visual. Every killer's power has:
1) Game Delay (keeping survivors off gens)
2) Tracking (getting into a chase)
3) Map Control/Mobility (controlling the map or getting around the map)
4) Lethality/Chase potential (ending a chase)
This represents (roughly) what killer powers could and should be doing in games. The problem, is that most of the really good killers, have like all or many of these in extremely high amounts, whereas the lower tier killers don't have these types of things. There are a handful that have a good balance of these 4 categories, but their power just isn't strong enough.
Looking at some of the best killers, you might have like:
- Nurse
- Game delay - 0
- Tracking - 0
- Map Control - 4
- Lethality - 5
- Blight
- Tracking - 0
- Map Control - 5
- Lethality - 4
- Game delay - 0
- Spirit
- Tracking - 0
- Map Control - 4
- Lethality - 4
- Game delay - 0
You see that these 3 basically have no game delay, and no tracking, but their powers are very good at downing people and getting around the map. Now lets look at 3 killers most people see as being terrible:
- Myers (non-tombstone)
- Tracking - 0
- Map Control - 0
- Lethality - 1
- Game delay - 0
- Sadako (non-condemn build)
- Tracking - 0
- Map Control - 1.5
- Lethality - 1
- Game delay - 1
- Trapper
- Tracking - 0
- Map Control - 1
- Lethality - 1
- Game delay - 0
You can see they basically have nothing, myers can only down people instantly, but he still has to play the loop game, so his power is only as effective as, you only have to hit them once. He has 0 map control, 0 tracking ability, 0 game delay. Sadako has a little bit of map control, but she is depended on a massive cooldown TV. Her lethality is barely there in the sense that she can sometimes get a cheeky 1st hit, but that's a bout it, her power is pretty useless in the chase itself. She has some very very minor game delay if condemn gets built-up. Trapper has 0 tracking, and a little bit of map control in his traps, but he can only lock down a small area (3-genning) and even then the traps are only effective if the survivor doesn't know they are there. His game delay is also non existant.
Now lets look at some more mid-tier style killers
- Wesker
- Game delay - 3
- Tracking - 1
- Map Control - 3
- Lethality - 3
- Pinhead
- Tracking - 1
- Map Control - 0
- Lethality - 3
- Game delay - 5
- Artist
- Tracking - 2
- Map Control - 3
- Lethality - 3
- Game delay - 0
Wesker has some decent game delay built in, if you don't clean off the infection after a chase, you are gonna be in a really really bad spot. Tracking is very minor, but when cleansing he does know where people are. His map control and navigate is okish as well, not the best, but he can get around faster than a standard m1 killer. And his lethality is also pretty decent. Around some loops his power is useless, but he can make effective use of it in many of the stronger loops like shack.
Pinhead has some very minor tracking in the box being solved, and can use his power to see places that are far. His power is also pretty decent in a chase. Not the best, but he can definitely use his power very well in chase to slow down the survivors, hitting it can be difficult though. But for game delay he has an absolute beast of one. Every box needs to be solved before it builds up, if it builds up and chain hunts activate, the game will come to a screeching halt, and pinhead is at his most powerful. His power has a built-in mechanic that you have to do if you don't want to immediately lose. This means that generally you will have, 1 person being chased, 1 person on hook, 1 person going for the save, and 1 person on gen or the box, rather than just always on the gen.
Artist also has a little bit of tracking in the Killer instinct and the birds being shot across the map at gens. She has decent map control (not mobility) because she can shoot birds across the map. Her power is also decent in a chase as well, similar to wesker she can shut down some loops, whereas others she'll have a hard time. And her power is susceptible to the "just leave the loop" strategy, but it is still relatively strong at anti-loop.
So this is where the problem lies. Some killers are just really really powerful in multiple categories, whereas the mid tier ones tend to be really good at 1 thing, and decent at another, or okay at everything. And the bad ones are just bad at everything.
- Nurse
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@Meepy13 said:
It's not that powerful, gens complete so fast it's impossible to defend them infinitely. You go check on the other two and the one you left can easily have had half of its progress finished with prove thyself and 2 other survivors
You can't commit to chases during 3 gens either, so it's basically just a garenteed survivor win, albeit a long one
As someone who generally plays killer, thinks this game is imbalanced and only 2-3 killers are actually viable at high level play and that gens go too fast...
I think that the game would be a much healthier state, if tunneling, camping, and 3-genning were not in the game at all, and that the game was spread out a bit, so killers didn't lose 3 gens in the first chase, and that the power curve for killers was evened out a bit so that they stay roughly the same power throughout the match.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482695#Comment_3482695
Skeleton Key with Blood Amber and Prayer Beads gives you 22.5 seconds of use. But the fact that you need to use a Skeleton Key at all is the issue. There's no reason why the Broken Key should be useless for both the hatch and aura reading.
You are correct on the numbers, but the point still stands that that is quite OP.
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@Uxoxe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3482505#Comment_3482505
There is this theory called "Wisdom of the Crowd". It uses a large group of diverse people to answer questions. Surprisingly, most of the answers the large group of people give are almost always right.
If one survivor player doesn't use keys, he does this because he sees the key as being not useful for winning the game. If all the survivors don't use keys, they do this because they believe the key is not useful for winning the game.
Since empirical evidence is the only evidence available to use in determining if an item is bad, empirical evidence shows keys are bad.
Seriously, try it, its wall hacks. Want to know what else is true about the "wisdom of the crowd" in DBD?
The "Wisdom of the crowd" also sees that nurse is the worst killer in the game, and Pinhead, Sadako, Wesker, and Freddy are some of the best in the game.
The problem is that when people use keys, they think of it merely as a way to escape using the hatch. Seriously, look at the addons, and think about it for just one second.
You can see the killer's aura within 32 METERS?! that is NUTS. Use that in a chase around a loop and see how long it takes a killer to catch you. Combine that with a skeleton key and a duration addon, and you are looking at the killer's aura for a full 22.5 seconds of time in a chase. And this only if you just hold the thing down, which you don't need to do. You simply toggle it for a second or 2 and you know what the killer is doing, if used correctly it will probably last you a whole match.
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@Uxoxe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481686#Comment_3481686
Keys are worthless. If you want proof, just count how often you see a survivor bring a key into the game. Here's a chart showing how often keys and maps are used by survivors from someone who counted them out of 83 matches.
Rarity does not dictate if something is good or not, it just dictates its rarity. Trying using a key sometime with addons that let you see the killer's aura while you are being chased sometime and you'll realize how strong they can actually be.
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@CrusaderNella said:
While this is very VERY unlikely to happen, I want to discuss a hypothetical mega rework of generators.
What would you say about a big change that standardizes gen speeds?
What i mean is mainly, tool boxes can no longer be used to increase gen repair speed, however both killer and survivor perks can still influences generator repair speeds, but all are nerfed. (And this means both Perks that increases gen repair time, and perks that work against generator repair times.)
All in all, these changes are made to set the gen repair rate at an average speed that both parties can accurately account for.
Is this a bad idea or do I perhaps have something good here? What are your thoughts?
Overall this is something that i think should be done.
Either:
A) Gen speeds need to be normalized, such that gen progression, and gen regression things are very small, thus making them not "required" to play
B) Gen progression should be removed from the survivor side, and gen defense, should be made like exhaustion is now, where killers can only take 1 gen defense perk, and they are all normalized to extend gen repair times by roughly the same over the course of a whole match, just in different ways. Then we just decide how long we think a gen should take, and make it take say, 10-20 seconds less than that, and have every gen defense perk extend the total of 5 gens of time by 60-120 seconds. That way you can pick whatever flavor of gen defense you want, but now you'll have 3 perks to work with. And survivors can expect on average gens will always be roughly the same amount of time over the course of a whole match, rather that it being purely dependent on the killer's or their perks.
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@Uxoxe said:
I'm extremely against this.
Survivor already has half their items being useless because of this, aka Keys and Maps (with the removal of boons and the hex-meta being gone). Now we're wanting to cut that to 3/4's of survivors items being useless, aka toolboxes. (Flashlights are pretty questionable too, honestly)
Keys are actually pretty OP to read auras. Gives you wall hacks basically, if used effectively you can extend a chase long enough to effectively guarantee a loss for the killer.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3481218#Comment_3481218
What percentage of DbD's playerbase is "good"?
Should those Killers all just be buffed to compete with good players and just have them totally curbstomp average players?
That sounds like a fundamental problem with the design of the game that needs to be addressed. You need to look at, why do "average" survivors do so poorly against killers most of time? There are probably a number of factors but these are the things that i "notice" when i play against or with bad survivors (and/or my friends with 20 hours).
- They are too scared to work on generators when the killer is "nearby" but totally occupied.
- They tend to hide from the killer even though the killer knows they are there instead of running to a safe loop
- They are bad at looping
- Anything that isn't a trapper power gives them a hard time because they don't know how to deal with each individual unique killer.
- They are afraid to be injured
- They spend time doing things that aren't useful, cleansing dull totems, or looting from chests, or healing against a legion.
- When playing solo, it is nearly impossible to coordinate with their team.
- Camping and tunneling are extremely effective against them.
Now lets look at high level play and why low-tier killers tend to struggle against them:
- Loops can simply be too powerful, shack into cow tree into jungle gym etc.
- Good survivors know the power of shift+w
- They don't waste time doing useless objectives, and spend almost all their time on gens, or doing something useful.
- They know how to deal with camping
- They have the perks to deal with tunneling, and the looping skills to keep the match going.
- They are not afraid to be injured
- Even while playing solo, everyone generally knows what they should be doing, so the lack of communication doesn't hurt them as badly
Now ignoring SWF for a minute, as well as nurse and blight (with dumb addons) because that's a whole different beast.
There are a number of changes that can be done, that would actually IMPROVE both the high level killer and low level survivor experience at the same time.
- Some loops are simply too strong, lets nerf some of them, Why does shack window need to spawn into a long wall jungle gym window. You aren't going to hurt the low level players by doing this, because they aren't abusing these structures and spawns to begin with, they are busy predropping the pallet on the wrong side and getting hit anyway.
- Camping should get removed (not in the way they are doing it). High tier survivors already know how to deal with it, and it is boring.
- Tunneling should get removed (preferably with the same mechanic as camping). High tier survivors tend to have the perks and loop knowledge to deal with it, so it won't hurt high level play.
- God pallets that are not mindgameable need to go, again, low skill survivors aren't using these pallets properly anyway, so removing or changing them isn't going to hurt them, and they are in low MMR so they aren't dealing with complex mind-games from killers.
This is what i don't understand about this community, anytime anyone suggests making any change to make high level play better, they immediately go "what about the 'average' survivors". The point is, you can NERF some of these extremely powerful loop setups that can spawn, and you aren't going to hurt the average survivors, because they aren't abusing those loops to begin with.
I post this video all the time, but it demonstrates my point exactly perfectly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=203sYes, it is about TF2, but the premise and idea remains the same regardless of the game. I timestamped the section around where the maker of the video talks about the B.A.S.E. Jumper item in TF2 and when it was nerfed and how it affected high level play and improved it, without hurting the low level play. But the whole video is great and worth a watch.
The very next example talks about the sniper class, where a change was made that nerfed an item in high level play, but actually buffed it in low level play, because the change was made to make the item have multiple uses. The item specifically is made to counter spies. In high level play, you ain't gonna see a spy anyway, but in pubs you'll see them all the time where sniper has a harder time. But they made it so you couldn't "overheal" the sniper when using that item, so they would be countered by OTHER snipers because overhealing would make it so they couldn't die to a headshot.
DBD can totally make these types of changes, improving both high level and low level play at the same time. But for some reason this community is so afraid of change they cry out anytime anything is suggested.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480687#Comment_3480687
i think your post is good example of subjective bias. I think big part of what killer play has to do with how smooth a character feels to play. if a killer has a lot of cooldowns, feels clunky and not intuitive to play. The killer will get selected less. The last part is fun factor. Legion is smooth as butter to play. he is intuitive to play and feels smooth. He likely feels fun to play for those that like high-speed pressure injure play-style.
Otz once talked about this in regards to pyramid head where he plays a less pyramid head post-changes because he feels like the character feels a lot more clunky to play. I share that similar opinion that killers that feel weird to play are hard to pick-up unless you just like suffering through gameplay. So while power-level is factor in playing a killer, I think fluidity of a killer plays major part in killer's enjoyment. You can have fun as killer in losing as long your finding joy in the gameplay you play. power-level is part of the killer but it is not everything. Fun-factor is most important when playing killers. The more killers are fun to play, the more variety you are likely to get.
You missed the part where i said that wasn't the only factor. I'm stating what i think a possible factor would be and then pointing out the obvious, that there isn't any one factor, and then go on to point out that it feels like the devs ignore all of that and only look at macro things. Please read the whole post.
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@DavidHypnos said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480686#Comment_3480686
Your job is to make sure there aren’t enough survivors for that to happen during endgame. If you can’t do that without camping and tunneling then it’s an issue on your part.
The current state of the game basically guarantees 4 survivors still alive if they are a well coordinated team, especially SWF. unless you are playing nurse or blight.
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@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480492#Comment_3480492
We do! We have entire dashboards full of detailed stats, and even conduct deeper studies into more specific cases when the situation calls for it. It's a bit of a misconception that all we look at is kill rate. Kill rates tend to be the stats we share most often because they're simple and easy to grasp. When we're writing a long blogpost with a dozen other balance changes, it's very difficult to go fully in depth for each change since doing so would, understandable, make the blogposts way too long for most people to bother reading.
In reality, stats are only one part of the process. Community feedback and design intention are also integral.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480524#Comment_3480524
The Singularity is brand new and has already received a few batches of changes. We'll continue to make changes as necessary. I don't think this would be a good example for a Killer that hasn't been updated.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3480579#Comment_3480579
I have no doubt that some people would avoid playing a Killer that they find uncompetitive at this skill level, but I would say that trying to boil a Killer's popularity down to a single reason is incredibly nebulous and is a huge assumption. There's far too many factors that play into it to confidently point to one and say, "That's why." I hate to use the same example again, but Legion may not be the strongest Killer in the game, but that doesn't stop them from being one of the most played.
With lots of experience it is easy to answer those types of questions. For example, i can say that probably one of the main reasons legion has a very high pick rate, is that they have the ability to max out the bloodpoint gain in 3 categories, without getting a single hook. Pretty much unless you completely mess up super terribly, you are all but guaranteed 30k bloodpoints. They are the easiest character in the game to farm with.
Is that the only factor? Probably not, but in general if a killer is perceived as "weak" by the community, you'll see pick rates for them be really low. Also, if a killer is recently released, you'll see they have a high pick rate. There are some outliers of course. For example, wesker is by far the highest picked killer (at least on the data WE have publicly). I would suspect that the reason for that is that he is generally perceived by the community as being "fair" but also still pretty good in terms of power level. Additionally players generally find him really fun to play. He hits the perfect trifecta of being fun, viable (in matchmaking) , and also seen as "fair".
Now if you look at nurse for example. She is by far the best killer in the game in the highest level of play, yet her pick rate is around 3%. Why would that be? Probably because when you are playing in regular matchmade games, people tend to give up immediately, making it really boring to play her. She also has a perception of being "really difficult" to play, so people tend to be too afraid to play her.
There are obviously tons of factors at play as to why a killer is played more than the others. But play rates should not be the only thing that dictates balance decisions. What if something were super super overpowered, but had a low play/pick rate? Does that mean that thing is totally fine? Absolutely not, because the players that do pick it, exploit it, and make the game miserable for everyone else.
The problem, at least as an outsider looking in, is that you all always talk about "the data" but it APPEARS (again as an outsider looking in) that you aren't looking at data at the granular level, you are just looking at broad strokes and that you AREN'T looking at all of those factors. You look at killers like myers for example and say, oh look, myers has a 50% kill rate, guess he is fine. But you aren't looking at the fact that maybe myers only has a 50% kill rate, because of the ones that use tomestone.
Or you look at something like SWF, and see that "well they don't escape any more than normal players" but you aren't looking at the totality of the match. If i play a match against a SWF group and get 0 hooks, but in the endgame i use NOED to get a down, and then the survivors BECAUSE they are a SWF play really overly altrustic, to the point where i suddenly get 6 hooks and maybe a kill or 2. Well it looks like SWF is fine because that match was a draw. When the reality is that match was only a draw BECAUSE the SWF attempted to play in a way that was reckless BECAUSE they know how powerful they are. Because at that point they KNOW they won, so they just throw themselves at the hook to get their friend out. When in reality, they simply won, and if they played like it, they would just let the 3 of them escape and take the win.
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@Peanits said:
I can chime in here.
Being afraid has nothing to do with it, it's more to do with time management and priorities. Large scale Killer reworks require a huge amount of time between designers, programmers, and QA. In order to do these types of large Killer reworks, we need to sacrifice on other things such as new features, perk balancing, etc. In a perfect world where we could squeeze as much as we want into a single update, these sorts of reworks would probably be more common, but sadly that is just not possible. Everything comes with a tradeoff.
As for why these sorts of reworks aren't the highest priority, this is where it gets a bit more complex. First off, we're at the point where there are 32 Killers in the game and counting. Even assuming that each Killer is played exactly equally, this would mean that each Killer is only seen in a little over 3% of all matches. Spending a significant amount of time on an update that only affects ~3% of matches is harder to justify when it means sacrificing new highly requested features or a bunch of perk updates which could impact all matches.
Beyond that, there is only so much we can do to make a Killer appealing to everyone. Different Killers focus on different playstyles. Some may be focused on setting traps, others on keeping Survivors busy, some on chases, and so on. These different playstyles can help fill different niches. A newer player who's having a hard time finding Survivors might be drawn to The Doctor, for example. Naturally, certain playstyles become more successful in high end matches and others fall out of favour. Experienced Survivors, for example, are less likely to stumble into a trap because they know what to look out for and can predict where the Killer may have placed them. Each power also has a different skill ceiling, so while some allow you to continue improving almost endlessly, others have an upper limit by virtue of their design.
Making each Killer equally strong at the highest skill levels is not the goal. Dead by Daylight is for everyone, not just the few at the very top. Often times these Killers are already doing pretty well in the vast majority of matches even if they fall out of favour in higher end matches. In these cases, buffing these Killers to the point where they are competitive in a high end match would cause them to be far too strong in the majority of matches. This is a net-negative change. While yes, it may be better for you, it makes things worse for the majority of players. Everyone's experience matters, not just those with more skill. In reality, it is not possible for every Killer to be equally viable at all skill levels.
Something else that we need to consider are the players who already enjoy these Killers the way they are. Legion is a perfect example of this. There's no shortage of suggestions to rework The Legion's power to make them stronger. Yet in spite of this, The Legion is consistently one of the most played Killers. While they might not be the strongest in high end matches, there is still a large crowd who enjoy them as is. That raises the question, is it worth reworking a Killer that many people already love to play just to make people who don't play them happy?
The Trapper is also a special case. He's the poster boy, front and center on all the artwork. He's the Killer you'll face and play during the tutorials, and he's unlocked by default. This is all very intentional; new players are naturally going to gravitate towards him. His power is very simple and easy to understand, and it tends to be fairly balanced in matches between newer players. He serves a special role of being a stepping stone toward learning the game. Because of this, his power is intentionally kept as simple and intuitive as possible (pick up a trap, set a trap), and he is intended to be fairly balanced in these sorts of games.
All this said, that doesn't mean we'll completely ignore these Killers. We do make smaller balance changes on a regular basis, and larger reworks are still planned to release from time to time. But we do need to keep everyone in mind when making these decisions and consider the role they currently fill in the game, as well as whether or not our time would be better spent on balance changes that could affect all players rather than a select few matches. It would be a different story if there were only a handful of Killers to choose from, but the roster is fairly big at this point. The goal isn't so much to make every last one of them perfect for everyone, it's to make sure that there's at last few options that appeal to everyone, regardless of how they play.
You ever think that maybe the reason some of these killers have such a low pick rate is because they can't compete?
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@MDRSan said:
It’s the same problem - how do you determine what’s a hook suicide without actually knowing the player’s intentions? There’s been times where I’m about to progress to 2nd stage, my teammates are across the map, and I use that last little bit to see if I’m lucky today - clearly I’m not trying to get out of the match there. Other times it’s strategic, like the killer is hovering and I want to force hatch to spawn for my last, potentially foolishly altruistic teammate (I’ve been on both ends of that foolishness). That’s technically a hook suicide but with the intent of helping my teammate.
I’ll admit there have been a handful of times where the killer is playing way too aggressively for my team’s skill level and I do take the option to remove my particular bloodpoint cow from the match as the last little bit of control I have over the situation though. In that case, a bot is just a handout to the killer.
How do the bots spawn anyway - do they just take over the existing survivor or are they fresh? Like, do they keep the same hook state?
Precisely why the best solution is to remove the mechanic altogether.
The 4% doesn't actually do anything "fun". Its a random chance mechanic that can suddenly make the match swing in the other direction, or give a survivor a free escape at the endgame, which is frustrating for the killer and isn't done due to any skill on the part of the survivor, just pure random chance. On top of that, survivors use it to effective "DC" without the penalty, thus screwing over their team, frustrating the survivors.
The mechanic should be entirely removed, luck reworked into a different mechanic, or removed entirely along with perks related to it like slippery meat reworked. Deliverance is totally fine, because it is something you earn and isn't RNG based, so that can stay. I'd argue you could enough buff it at that point by letting the person use it on a second hook too.
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@GHOSTfaceP3 said:
Title
@crogers271 said:
Huh? Failure how? Like they don't work? Not an interesting gameplay element? Or are you talking about the proposed killer long ago who destroyed permanent walls?
Definitely not an interesting mechanic. They literally function as a "predropped" pallet. But the reality is the way they are setup is pretty simple.
You have your walls that you want to break, and your walls you don't want to break. Why are there breakable walls you don't want to break? Breaking a wall shouldn't be good for survivors, so that is already bad. But, why are there some sections of a map that just exist as an infinite if you don't break the wall? They just exist to waste extra time for a killer with no real strategic gain. Survivors would likely prefer if they were just a standard loop rather than a breakable wall.
The only breakable wall that i think is well designed is the shack in the deathslinger map. That one is good, because the wall being there makes it stronger than a standard shack, but the wall not being there weakens it to being less than a standard shack, but it isn't useless. That is more how i think the walls should work, where when you break them, it weakens the loop, but doesn't make it useless, and breaking it isn't completely required (depending on killer).
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@Exerlin said:
It seems like every killer I face or watch almost always have addons on, even players that dedicate themselves mostly to one killer. I'm not saying people shouldn't use addons or anything, I'm mainly wondering if anyone else feels kinda bad when using them.
Personally, using addons feels bad because they're a consumable. I really don't want to train myself on certain addons just to run out of them, and I don't want to continuously pump bloodpoints into a killer I play a lot because I don't really care about Prestige past 10. My goals when I play this game are to unlock everything I can, have fun, try to win, and try to improve. Using addons would make it easier to win, but harder to improve as I'm relying on something I won't always have.
It also irks me a bit when everyone's making videos showcasing perk combos and such while always bringing in a decked-out item. Like, I get that Mettle of Man is good when you have 2 self heals on your medkit. I'm sure Prove Thyself is carrying your team, nothing to do with your brand new part or anything. But ESPECIALLY that Ace in the Hole video. Why would you bring an item in when you are scavenging for more you're not even showcasing the "you keep addons on escape" feature you're just throwing away your inventory
Anyways, if you know anyone who makes DBD videos and doesn't constantly use really good addons and items all the time, I'd love to see it!
I generally try to stick to green and below addons as my core usage so i can ensure that i always have the available. The purple and iri ones can sometimes be hard to get unless you pour a ton of bloodpoints into the character.
There are a few exceptions where the killer is just terrible without those addons, but generally that is what i try to do. I don't do it as a way to "handicap" myself or "be nice" its simply economics. If there is some challenge i need to do that an addon would help with then i'll use something different.
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@sluc16 said:
Is impossible to win a match as a new killer, nothing but experienced survivors, gens just fly, I try to slow them down with corrupt and ruin, but ruin just gets broken in the first minute of the match every time, there is no point on playing as new killer, you will not have any fun at all
@Uxoxe said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/383180/zero-value-from-ruin-every-match
You slow gens down by downing survivors in this meta. The reason gens are flying for you is because you aren't downing survivors fast enough.
Also, there are much better perks than Hex:Ruin. Try Lethal Pursuer, it allows you to get in a chase and down a survivor faster.
What this person says, consistent slowdown is not good anymore, you need burst slowdown and to down survivors.
As they mentioned the greatest slowdown perk in the game is unironically lethal pursuer. It allows you to immediately start a chase with a survivor as soon as the match starts and start the snowball faster. Then, if you combine that with burst slowdown like pain res/pop you can get the snowball going pretty quickly.
For passive gen defense, you want to stay away from stuff like ruin, and go more with things like deadlock, no way out (slows down the endgame basically passively as long as you don't tunnel), jolt (if you are an m1 killer). Corrupt, if you need extra time in the beginning, like a nemesis leveling up, or a myers tiering up, or some other setup-type killer.
If you want a more spicy match you can use the hex build that is going around:
- Devour Hope
- Pentimento
- Undying
- Haunted Ground
Basically, if they don't cleanse your totems, devour hope will very VERY suddenly slow the game down, if they do cleanse your totems, odds are it will be haunted ground, and you'll be able to snowball pretty hard. And then, you get pentimento for a solid 30% slowdown that is very consistent. The downside to this is your early game tends to be a bit rougher as the game basically comes to a screeching halt around 2 gens left.
Things like ruin and merciless storm are terrible and should not be used.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3478240#Comment_3478240
I think it's more surprising what Killers are near the top. Clown, Onryo, Pig? Very surprising.
pig is near the middle. Clown is because that one player is just godly. and onryo is because of the condemn build, which makes her actually good. If they didn't play that build it would be much lower.
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@JonOzzie16 said:
I would like to know where all of these survivors are that are running made for this every game?
I am barely seeing this perk in my games. Calling BS on these "seeing it every game" comments.
I'll take screenshots of my next 10 games, and post them here.
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@Deathslinger1of2 said:
The thing is that how many people do you see abusing the super haste builds? The average person isn’t gonna be working as hard as they can to abuse the perk.
Just because something is rare, doesn't mean it is fine.
Imagine a scenario where there was a killer offering that did the following:
- All survivors are permanently exposed
- All survivors are permanently moriable with no hooks
- The killer permanently has double movement speed (9.2 m/s)
- The aura of all survivors is permanently revealed to the killer (bypasses distortion)
Now lets say this offering had a 1 in 1000 chance of appearing in the bloodweb. Meaning you'll roughly see it once every 1000 games. Is this offering balanced, fair, should it exist?
Better yet, i'll let otz take it from here:
https://clips.twitch.tv/AwkwardMildFerretPipeHype-0ehry4t4zExHh7Bo -
@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3473864#Comment_3473864
Clown is almost completely unaffected. His gameplay functions exactly the same.
Twins WANTS people to be injured. MFT encourages people to stay injured. 3% could help dodge Victor, if his hitbox wasn't the size of a semi-truck.
Pinhead isn't affected by MFT because the Chains force you to walk. MFT doesn't apply on walking, only while running.
Once again, MFT encourages people to stay injured. Dredge benefits from that via Nightfall. Dredge isn't like Knight where he simply ceases moving while at a loop and loses vision of the Survivor. He keeps moving and can clearly see the Survivor begin to move away. Not an issue.
Trapper excels at locking down areas. MFT will not help you when you run into a Trap.
Myers is an instant down Killer, not sure if you've forgotten.
Demo's Shred is more pallet break utility and for guaranteed hits at windows/vaults. In those cases, 3% will NOT matter. Resi might though.
You want to be healed against GF. He can and will sneak up on you. Even comp players don't risk it.
Not sure how Huntress ended up there, I meant to put her in the bottom tier.
Deathslinger has way more shot options than Huntress.
Ah yes, the "High MMR" response. Very good. Yeah, I've played Nemesis in scrims. He's fine against MFT. It hurts his Zombies, but ya know, if you were relying on them....that's kinda on you.
Artist can snipe. Artist also doesn't really slow down a significant amount. See Dredge response.
Knight's fine against MFT. I never use Guards to get hits, I use them to either pincer or to waste time.
SM is unaffected by MFT because she's too busy holding her 3-gen.
Larry will eat through pallets if you're just tossing them like you suggest.
Being injured as a Survivor is unavoidable. That's not a mistake. It's like saying a Killer who loses a gen made a mistake.
It's just not true.
People aren't staying injured to "get more value" out of MFT, they are going to still heal like normal. It isn't like resilience where you get a big benefit from being injured when not being chased.
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3473864#Comment_3473864
being injured as survivor is impossible avoid almost. they are not rewarding for making mistake. you get empowered for being 1 shot. Nicola cage perk Dramaturgy is on PTB and it grants 25% haste for 2 seconds. so whole DH for distance is clearly coming back to DBD. Now killer chases will be extend in an impossible to counter manner for most killers since almost everyone will be using that perk.
That perk at least has downsides. Which is the main difference between dead hard and the other perks. MFT literally has no downside, it does not counter some toxic killer strategy, nor does it have any requirements. It just HAPPENS, 100% of the time.
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@Pulsar said:
Here's my chart. This is all in my own experience. Except for Hag, I don't know if MFT's Haste is enough to get away from a Hag trap being triggered.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/LH51F0B1WONC/dbd-mft-chart-png.png
Most of the Killers affected by MFT are #########. That's more an issue with the Killer than a perk, imo. ANY strong perk will adversely affect those Killers because they lack the power to deal with it.
The only remotely strong Killer that I think is majorly affected by MFT is Plague, since Survivors will almost always be Injured and if they don't cleanse, that can be difficult to deal with.
So your chart is full of it quite a bit TBH. To start with, clown is still affected by it because it counteracts the slowdown a bit more than running normally. As mentioned instadown killers don't care much, nor do blight nurse and spirit.
Twins very much is affected by it, i'm not sure what you mean by that, but the extra speed definitely makes it easier to dodge victor.
Cenobite definitely cares a little because again, it makes it easier to dodge and the movement speed applies even when you are chained. The chains right now BARELY make it so you catch up to the survivor if you land a perfect chain. For example, look how hard fixated counters him.
Dredge? ######### are you on about with that one, dredge is basically an M1 killer with a "leave the loop" power. MFT allows you to "leave the loop" faster and get more distance than you normally would.
I'll give you wraith.
Trapper? Are you kidding me? Trapper is HEAVILY affected by it because his power is pretty garbage in general as it is.
MYERS? he is literally an m1 killer!?
Billy i'll give you he has instadown, but its more about curving which MFT can make harder.
Demo?!! are you nuts? MFT makes you run FASTER than demo while charging shred, whereas normally demo moves at the same speed as survivor (with that addon), this MEGA makes a difference, think back to when they nerfed the addon so he still moved slower than survivors and how terrible he was and they quickly put it back before it went live from PTB.
Ghost face is another m1 killer basically with a stealth component, but ghost face very much is still an m1 killer.
PH i'd say is arguable but seems fine.
HUNTRESS?! 103 vs 110 is HUGE when you can huge those insane rocks that she can't throw over, they become infinites without bloodlust.
Deathslinger, see huntress
Nemesis, in theory yeah, but in practice it hurts him pretty hard, try playing him sometime at high MMR.
Artist is same as dredge, her power is a "leave the loop" power, so it allows the survivor to leave the loop faster.
Knight is a "leave the loop" power
Skull merchant is a "leave the loop" power
Singularity is HEAVILY affected by it, because as it stands if you run duration, you can JUST barely catch up to them just before the duration runs out to tank a pallet stun, but with MFT you don't get enough distance, so he basically becomes an m1 killer you predrop pallets against.
Wesker i'll give you
All the bad ones i give you as well. All in all, i'd change your list to this:
Moreever though, you did not address the main point of this thread. Which is that it is 100% free, survivors just get it, for getting hit. They are rewarded for making a mistake.
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@I_CAME said:
Is his basekit fine tho? He has the best chase power in the game and the best mobility. A mechanic that prevents him from immediately rushing across the map and downing someone 5 seconds after a hook would be completely fair. He should have some sort of weakness rather than him being god tier everywhere like he currently is.
The best chase power in the game?
You must be joking, nurse and spirit exist. Hell even PH, and nemesis have better chase powers. Blight's strength is his map pressure and that he can be anywhere in seconds.
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@DrDucky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470851#Comment_3470851
Whilst I dont want DS to come back (this is just a selfish take and not what I would say if I talked about the health of the game etc). The 3 seconds is actually 2 seconds since 1 second is spent leaping off the shoulder.
8 metres of distance in an area void of some loops is not really enough, most killer not even the op ones can use powers to catch u very fast (huntress, demo etc).
Right, but now if that is the case i put the blame on the survivor, not the killer. You are getting hard tunneled, but you run to a deadzone? Why are you doing that? If you are getting hard tunneled, you have a full 10 seconds, or a speed boost from the endurance effected to get somewhere safe, plus you get time from DS, all of that should be plenty of time to get somewhere. Hell the speed boost should get you across 60% of the map.
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@Ripley said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470807#Comment_3470807
I agree. I think people complain as if somehow pleading to the community will make it stop, it's pretty sad to see. It's frustrating seeing developers overlook issues that are driving players away from their games. I also understand with such a big game they would want to make conservative changes.
I don't really know how BHVR could address this division without creating different queues like you say. I think moving to SBMM wasn't a good idea to begin with but it is true some asked for it. I'd probably try have a ranked mode for those who want to be challenged. It wouldn't necessarily stop bully squads from queuing social/unranked/casual. A hidden MMR for casual could counter it. I don't think solo queue has improved much for status hud, even with SBMM it's nowhere on par with SWF. Maybe ping system that could only be used sparingly (I hate ping spammers and it could ruin immersion for some, so maybe being able to turn it off).
It's interesting to me though (slightly OT) that different games can bring out different gamer types in me. I can be very achievement/win oriented and will do brute force repetition if it works. I have to reign it in though because it can really affect my mood and enjoyment.
Splitting the queues is the best option, because then they can actually balance them as different modes. For example lets say they made ranked mode the SWF mode and solo queue is unranked. They could give survivors some buffs in the solo queue mode like free kindred, or nerfing the killer in some way to balance the fact that they are solo. Then for the SWF queue, they could make tweaks to nerf the survivors, maybe they just flat out run slower, or they have to repair more gens, or the gen time is increased, or the killer just gets free bloodlust 1 all the time, some kind of mechanic to balance out the fact that the survivors are on discord.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470851#Comment_3470851
DS was 3 seconds when there were actually infinites. It was also 3 seconds when it was instant on the Obsession and 33% on regular Survivors and had no other limitations.
The 3 second stun is actually more like 2 seconds due to the animation. Maps have deadzones and you often don't get to pick where you're hooked.
It should be 5 seconds.
DS was made 5 seconds in 2.6.3. True infinites weren't really in the game at that point. You are thinking of 1.4.0, when it was a 4 second stun, and it was tied to the wiggle meter for non-obsessions and didn't require a hook. It also was able to be countered by dribbling the survivor if they weren't the obsession, albeit it made hooking take a bit longer. In 2.6.0 it was changed to the similar one we know today, where when you were unhooked, it lasted for 60 seconds and you could stun the killer for 3 seconds. Then it was changed in 2.6.3 to be 5 seconds because of enduring.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470851#Comment_3470851
I know you were going to say nurse but besides her. Blight, spirit, all ranged killers can easily catch up. It takes 1 second to get off the killers shoulder so there only stunned for like 2 seconds.
Right, so a handful of killers can counter it. That is how a lot of things work in this game. I guess dead hard needs a buff because legion counters it too right? Or all the healing perks need big buffs because plague counters them too right? Or doctor needs a buff because calm spirit counters him right? Sometimes things just get countered by other things, that is the nature of how games work.
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@Chilli_man2400 said:
Ever since it’s nerf, decisive strike has dropped in popularity and usage. It’s simply too weak on certain killers to be worth it. I’m proposing a buff that will make it better to use. It might be a little to strong but here’s my idea.
Decisive Strike
After being unhooked or unhooking yourself, Decisive strike activates. While active complete a skillcheck while grabbed to escape, stunning the killer for 3/4/5 seconds.
- Succeeding or failing the skillcheck disables the perk
- you become obsession when using the perk
- the perk disables permanently when the exit gates are powered
- taking any conspicuous action will deactivate the perk. If the killer hooks another survivor the perk deactivates.
TLDR: I removed the timer so it’s truly an anti tunneling perk and brought the stun time back to 5 seconds. But I added a condition so if the killer hooks another survivor the perk shuts off so people can’t abuse the infinite duration.
2 things.
1) DS used to always be 3 seconds way way back in the day, and it was seen as super OP even then. The only reason it was buffed to 5 seconds, was because enduring worked on it. So that 3 second stun become 1.5 seconds, and it actually WAS useless in that case. So they buffed it to 5 seconds, and said that when they reworked enduring to only work on pallets, they would reduce DS back to 3 seconds. Well, they reworked enduring, but never held up that end of the bargain to change DS back. So now it is back to 3 seconds as it originally was.
2) a 3 second stun is quite long and the perk is far from useless. 3 seconds gets you 12 meters of distance, which buys you ~12 seconds of distance on the killer. If you can't get to a pallet or window, or some structure to defend yourself in 12 seconds you are doing something wrong. And if you are going to say "but nurse" i'm going to stop you right there. Nurse should never be used as a point when it comes to balancing anything other than herself. We shouldn't be buffing or nerfing anything just because she exists.
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@Ripley said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470037#Comment_3470037
I disagree with the premise that the core objective of a game is for the player to win. Personally I have more fun not prioritising winning. I can win but did I have fun doing it? Not always. There's a bigger picture at play that game designers should understand different gamers get value out of different things. I feel like this strategy is for one player type "the killer" when some of my fun as killer probably more resembles a hybrid of explorer/socializer. And the interesting thing is a larger portion of players are social type, and I think games that allow for repetitive strategies to dominate (i.e. tunneling, spawn-camping, stun-locking) tend to lose players this way. So a designer has to work novelty back into the experience for players to help mitigate player churn.
https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/article/bartle-s-player-types-for-gamification
I'm simply talking about some peoples goals. Sure, some people don't play games to win. But there are always going to be a group of people that do. And if you get upset at people for doing that, that's on you and/or the developers for allowing them to do the things they do. Not the player. But much of the hate around this subject is directed toward the person doing the thing, not the people that allow the thing to happen.
Its like, imagine that it was totally legal to commit some kind of crime that we have today. You shouldn't get mad at the person for committing that "crime" so to speak, but at the people who are allowing such a crime to not be a "crime".
A good example of this might be taxation of "the rich". People get mad at rich people because they "don't pay their fair share of taxes" but the reality is, the tax code is what is allowing them to do the things they do. They shouldn't be mad at the people for using the tax code to their advantage, they should be mad at the government that makes it legal for them to do so.
This whole problem is actually typically why games tend to have a "Ranked" and "unranked" mode. In DBD there really isn't an "unranked" mode that you can queue up for. The "Unranked" mode is the custom games because it doesn't use matchmaking. It could also be argued that there is no ranked mode because you can't see how well you are doing in comparison to other people. This is just one of the many problems DBD has, and why i think they should create a "ranked" mode that is for SWF only, a "ranked" mode that is solo queue only, and another that is unranked completely. Or, if they are worried about splitting the player base, you should have ranked mode ONLY be SWF, or ONLY be Solo queue, and then balance that mode with that in mind. And actually do things based on that. They could also balance the game different in those modes. Like for example in CS:GO where unranked mode gives you more money, and free armor and defuse kits, whereas ranked is much more strict with money and doesn't give you free stuff.
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@Deathslinger1of2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470037#Comment_3470037
Well then yes, I’m a scrub. It secures your win. Ok, I get that. For you personally, do you tunnel? Asking this is a scrub question then, but then if you only look at terms of winning and losing so black and white, answer me this: Do you enjoy the suffering of others? It’s a yes or no question, just like winning. Do I win this match? Yes or no? Do I enjoy the suffering of others? Yes or no?
Not to ping you twice, but i want to make sure you see this post as well. Something i have been thinking about for a while, is that this game is actually designed to make players suffer. Specifically survivors, although killers end up suffering at the hands of SWF and such as well, but mainly survivors.
What i mean by that is. This game is designed around survivors "playing a game" despite how unfun that "game" is, which is, repairing the generators, and escaping the trial. Imagine if there was no killer in the game at all, you might have actually experienced this before with like an afk wraith or something like that. The "game" that survivors play, is to repair the generators and escape.
However for killers, their "game" is to stop the survivors from playing their "game". And how do they do that? By chasing, downing and ultimately hooking them. So what have they now done. They put the survivor on a time out effectively, so now their team must come get them. They took away a survivor's agency to do, well, anything, and now they must rely on their teammates to give them that agency back.
The entire game is designed around survivors losing their sense of agency and being unable to do anything. Ultimately, this is personally why i prefer playing killer, because i don't like that feeling of losing the ability to do anything, but, i do play both sides depending on time of day, and try to play them at least relatively equally in order to learn how both sides play and get better. But i'm just saying that from a "fun" and "preference" side of things, i have more fun with killer because that role is not designed to lose their ability to do anything because the other side is completing their objective.
This is also why i think SWF bully squads are so much more unfun to go against. Because they flip the roles, such that, the one that has agency, and the one that is designed to take it away, are flipped.
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@Deathslinger1of2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3470037#Comment_3470037
Well then yes, I’m a scrub. It secures your win. Ok, I get that. For you personally, do you tunnel? Asking this is a scrub question then, but then if you only look at terms of winning and losing so black and white, answer me this: Do you enjoy the suffering of others? It’s a yes or no question, just like winning. Do I win this match? Yes or no? Do I enjoy the suffering of others? Yes or no?
You see, you are already attacking a strawman, but i'll answer your questions:
- For you personally do you tunnel?
- Only if it is the most effective strategy to secure me the win. Hard tunneling as a whole is actually a bad idea most of the time, because to hard tunnel a survivor out, it means 3 other survivors have free reign on the gens. But if survivors put themselves in a situation where i think camping or tunneling will win the the game? Yeah, absolutely i will do it.
- Do you enjoy the suffering of others?
- You are reading too much into this. No, i do not. But you assume that me playing to win is enjoying the suffering of others. What about survivors? Survivors like to bring BNP, hyperfocus, stake out, and tons of other perks and employ strategies that are often frustrating for a killer. Why do they get a free pass?
- Do i win this match?
- Maybe? Like i said, tunneling and camping isn't always a good idea, it only is when it works.
- Do i enjoy the suffering of others?
- See above.
Lastly, you are making at least 1 assumption, possibly 2. Firstly, i also play survivor, and i also employ strategies there that killers would find "unfun" in order to secure a win. Secondly, i worry that you might think that i believe that these strategies are good for the game. But here is the secret. I actually don't. I can believe multiple things to be true at once.
- I believe that at the absolute highest levels of play, this game heavily favors survivors, and there are 2 arguably 3 killers out of the 30+ that are actually viable at this high level (hint, most content creators will actually agree with this statement, but they disagree with my following statement)
- This game should be balanced around the highest level players and what they are capable of, not the "average" players. No other multiplayer game is ever balanced around the "average" players. see this video for context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw&t=203s
- For a quote around this, Game designer Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street who worked on WoW and League of Legends says this: "It's worth pointing out that the more skilled players, and especially professionals... are the best at breaking your game; as they'll be better at exploiting balance problems"
- Tunneling is bad for the health of the game.
- Camping is bad for the health of the game.
But just because i think it is bad for the game, doesn't mean i'm not going to use it when the developer lets me. My point is, if you want to blame anyone for tunneling, don't blame the player who is using a strategy, blame the developers for allowing that strategy to exist.
Complaining about tunneling is like someone complaining that the queen is overpowered in chess and being mad at someone for using a strategy that takes the opponents queen, or forking pieces, or using other strategies to win.
- For you personally do you tunnel?
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@Deathslinger1of2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3469427#Comment_3469427
It secures a win, I’m not THAT dumb. But can’t one find a strategy that doesn’t make the other side absolutely miserable? When I play survivor my intention isn’t to make a killer’s gameplay miserable.
If you are specifically not using a strategy because it is "unfun" even if it is effective, then your goal is not to win. Inherently that makes you a "scrub" by definition, and i don't mean it as some "rude" term, its more of a "clinical" definition.
I post this a lot here, but i think it bears repeating in this case. I would suggest reading the free E-Book "Playing to Win" by game designer David Sirlin. https://www.sirlin.net/ptw.
Here is an excerpt from the book that i feel is most relevant here:
Introducing...the Scrub
The derogatory term “scrub” means several different things. One definition is someone (especially a game player) who is not good at something (especially a game). By this definition, we all start out as scrubs, and there is certainly no shame in that. I mean the term differently, though. A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win.
Now, everyone begins as a poor player—it takes time to learn a game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game even before deciding which game to play. His problem? He does not play to win.
The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevents him from ever truly competing. These made-up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. Let’s take a fighting game off of which I’ve made my gaming career: Street Fighter.
In Street Fighter, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” This “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone is often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield that will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.
You will not see a classic scrub throw his opponent five times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimizes his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you—that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you block for fifty seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap. Street Fighter was just one example; I could have picked any competitive game at all.
Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.
A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which one tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Who knows what objective the scrub has, but we know his objective is not truly to win. Yours is. Your objective is good and right and true, and let no one tell you otherwise. You have the power to dispatch those who would tell you otherwise, anyway. Simply beat them.
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So, what you are saying is that the wraith used a strategy in their games that resulted in a 100% win rate, albeit with a very small sample size. Why exactly are you complaining about that? The strategy seems to be highly effective, wouldn't the wraith be a fool to not employ a strategy that results in that high of a win rate?
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@Deathslinger1of2 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3469384#Comment_3469384
I’m being it but dramatic, but I mean I see a lot of wraiths tunnel when I go against one. Like 3/4 tunnel, to give it a number. Does anyone else face this problem?
Ok, so lets say it was 4. Did the wraith win those 4 games?
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@Deathslinger1of2 said:
Almost every single match I play against a Wraith I get tunneled. Is this chance? Why does it seem like most Wraiths tunnel?
How many matches did you play?
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3468153#Comment_3468153
There could be a situation where a killer gets 0 hooks the entire game, but has NOED, and is able to down 2 survivors and kill them because of NOED, then the other 2 escape. However, they got 2 kills, so i guess it is a totally balanced and fair match right? All of the perks and killer and map and MMR and all the other factors weighed in are totally balanced according to that match.Additionally, you can have a match where someone plays skull merchant and uses no perks and just memes around, but everyone kills themself on hook because they don't like skull merchant, so she gets 4 kills and no gens get done. So i guess skull merchant is super OP now? And no perks are actually better than perks?Yeah, those will occur, so what? We're looking at pools of what, millions of games across the world? Sure, there will be a game where the survivors kill themselves, or the killer just lets everyone goes, but they balance each other out.
Large sample sizes balance out small variances.
So i'll eagerly be awaiting the nerfs they need to do to wesker to bring him more in line with a balanced killer like nurse.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3468237#Comment_3468237
In those cases, yes, it can be guaranteed, but you need a SWF for it. I was just trying to come up with a different way to play it. Are there any other perks that go with it. Like theoretically I thought of Renewal, since it cannot work with say Deliverance, it could with Slippery Meat, but I have not been lucky in my solos to earn it before getting hooked (even if someone gets injured we end up double healing and that doesn't quite charge it).
You can use for the people for renewal, but you have to like, let it tick for a bit before you use it for some reason.
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@JustAnotherNewbie said:
While deliverance requires you unhook someone safely as well as have a curse attached to it (you usually get hooked first), what's the point of bringing Slippery Meat. I did the math and it seems using up all your attempts results in unhooking every other game (I think it's close to 50%), so unless you bring that ace perk and Salty Lips it pretty meh. And to have it work consistently you have to commit a lot of resources, as well as your team (if you're in a SWF).
Basically I can only imagine it covering Deliverance's weakness if you get hooked while not having unhooked anyone, and your team is getting slugged/sacrificed soon. Which even then, you have to hope the RNG gods smile to you.
I tried running it with Renewal, but that perk is so hard to activate, unless you completely heal a teammate alone.
Does anyone use it? Is there any other perk than can synergize with it besides Up the Ante?
It can actually be better than deliverance, but only if you do like a 4 stack. If all the survivors bring the 3% luck offering and use slippery meat you each get 6 attempts total and each attempt has a 20% chance to unhook yourself. You can increase this to 29% chance if you also bring up the ante. This means that, barring bad luck, you are GUARANTEED to unhook yourself, statistically speaking. But with no requirement.
4 stack teams can be really awful with this. There is a game otz played a while back where the team did this and he had a really rough time against them.
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@Volcz said:
Statistics probably go against all these people being loud and complaining about MfT.
If data showed that escape rates skyrocketed, I'd think that would be indicator that the perk is doing a lot. If they aren't changing it, its because the data most likely is not agreeing with all these complaints. I know some people who think its busted and others who think its fine. Just because 10 people agree with you that a perk is busted to 1 person saying its okay doesn't make you correct.
Want to know what their statistics say?
For context, they balance around a 60% kill rate.
Their statistics put Nurse, Spirit, and Blight strictly in low A or high B tier. They put them in same category as:
- SADAKO
- Pinhead
- Oni
And even better, they show that Dredge, Plague, and WESKER are actually BETTER than they are.
They also show that:
- Myers is totally balanced
- Legion is totally balanced
- Hillbilly is totally balanced
- Huntress is terrible
Their statistics are not reliable because they only go by kill rates, they don't go by what actually matters, which is how the match goes. There could be a situation where a killer gets 0 hooks the entire game, but has NOED, and is able to down 2 survivors and kill them because of NOED, then the other 2 escape. However, they got 2 kills, so i guess it is a totally balanced and fair match right? All of the perks and killer and map and MMR and all the other factors weighed in are totally balanced according to that match.
Additionally, you can have a match where someone plays skull merchant and uses no perks and just memes around, but everyone kills themself on hook because they don't like skull merchant, so she gets 4 kills and no gens get done. So i guess skull merchant is super OP now? And no perks are actually better than perks?