Reinami

@just_one_player said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3606566#Comment_3606566
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3606589#Comment_3606589
In fact, NL's sample size is adequate. You're basically using a straw man by citing twins, as even a sample of 161 games at a 90% confidence level would lead to an error of 6.5% (I honestly don't know where you came up with the 10% value).
The larger the sample size, the more accurate it will be, but there is no relationship with the size of the population. You may have a population of 100 million, but if you have a sample with 16576 elements (which would be less than 0.02% of the population), you will be able to estimate the proportion of a characteristic in the population with an error probability of 1% and a confidence level of 99%.
I don't know what source you used to say that for the size of a sample to be representative it needs to be proportional to the size of the population, but that is absolutely wrong. All techniques for determining the size of a sample, whether for mean or proportion, do not depend on the size of the population.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/WE5J7Q3J3U8W/image.png

Thats only accurate if you have a truly representative sample though. Which would require you to pick out 16k random players. But nightlight isn't looking at 16k random players. Its looking at players who know it exists, and who report data to it, which is going to be a very specific, very biased subset of players.

Also are you just going to glaze over the fact that for a month if i played nothing but twins games where i 0ked every game i could single handedly take the twins kill rate from 61% below 25%?

in MFT is no longer in Top 10 Comment by Reinami December 12, 2023

@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3606566#Comment_3606566
It's kinda funny how you posted the official pickrates BHVR themselves shared that almost completely matched the Top 10 pickrates on NL during that time except for Self-Care/Kindred and the order of some perks but then you said NL isn't a good source for statistics... Sure there are variables and not every single number should be taken as a fact on there but pickrates of perks specifically were mostly pretty accurate with a couple of small differences.

Sometimes that is going to happen. That is how statistics work. You have a population, and then you have a sampling of that population.

Sometimes, especially if you are correctly sampling your population, such as in political polls (which also aren't accurate but for different reasons) the sample will be correct. But that is assuming you have a large enough sample size to account for said population.

Now lets look back to nightlight. According to nightlight, twins has a 61.15% kill rate. But also look at how twins only is looking at 161 games played. Now, generally to get statistically relevant data, you want to have a sample of around 10% of your population. Which isn't always feasible. So you go with a margin of error and a confidence level to determine that. Now around 161, is going to give you a margin of error of around 10%.

This means that the actual kill rate for twins could be 51.15% or 71.15%. The lower the sample size, the less accurate your measurement is going to be. But that is assuming you are looking at 161 different players, which is not likely.

The point i'm making is. Nightlight is looking at such a small small minority of games, that i don't think you should be looking to it for your stats, as it likely is going to be far less accurate.

The other example is that the samples are inherently not random and are biased. Nightlight requires self reporting, which by its nature is only looking at a specific type of player. For example, i am a nurse main. And looking at nurse, they are reporting 715 games played for a month of data there. If i play an average of 2-3 hours a night, in a month. Lets say around 13 minutes per game (and queue times and such) that means that in a given month i can play Probably around 10-15 games a night. Meaning that i could personally account for HALF of those reported games of nurse.

Now what if i played twins a killer i don't actually play and am terrible at? I could probably single handedly tank the twins kill rate on that chart by just playing twins every game for a month and reporting every game i play.

The main point here, is that probably twins doesn't have a 61% kill rate, but that a handful of dedicated twins mains who use nightlight who are really good are pumping up her numbers. These could be players that are really really good at the game and aren't representative of actual reality.

This is why nightlight is not accurate.

in MFT is no longer in Top 10 Comment by Reinami December 11, 2023

@Rulebreaker said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/399883/im-back-and-its-time-for-a-real-conversation-about-what-swf-does-to-this-game
We're going to explain how we see it from our eyes.
You wish to nerf SWFs due the extreme end they CAN be with the advantages they have outside the actual game. We don't deny that even casual SWFs have an advantage, but most the advantages come, again, outside the game.
What you proposed to add a disadvantage to people playing in SWFs (didn't specify duos, tris, or the full team) which IS punishing playing with friends (you can word it all you like, but this IS what it is). As others have pointed out numerous times, that's gonna go poorly. While we love a good experiment, we don't think this should be tested (this is our opinion though).
Now, you say the threat of SWF forces killers to sweat, but that's your opinion and one we don't believe is true, especially when we're playing killer with thematic/builds with restrictions and still don't feel the need to sweat until annoyed. Do we expect to win all the time? No, of course not as there ARE ppl better than us three. Will we think "SWF alert sweat time!" each time we think there's a SWF? Nope. And surprise, we still do well in our games.
Generally, whichever side tries harder is more likely to win. Being in a SWF doesn't guarantee a SWAT squad, nor does it guarantee that the killer will sweat bullets if they think they are facing one.

The "you shouldn't expect to win all the time" thing goes both ways though.

Let me ask you question.

Do you think that blight player that is on a 1k+ win streak is fine?

in I'm back and its time for a real conversation about what swf does to this game Comment by Reinami December 11, 2023

@ArchAbhor said:
Here are the facts. Being in a swf grants a certain number of advantages. I'm not going into that now because its been discussed extensively on these forums. Also this isnt a conversation of imbalances between all the killers which is an issue outside of what i want to talk about.
Heres how this effects this game. The pecking order is this. Solo q<killer<swf. That means that solo q suffers because of the advantages that swf hold over killer. If killer would like to chill out and test builds for fun they are shut down because of efficiency of swfs. No room for fun builds. So if the killer wants to be able to win they must bring meta and/or play dirty.
That doesnt mean that killer has a guaranteed win over well-coordinated swfs, but that does guarntee a stomp vs solo q. So both killer and solo q are held hostage to swfs who want to optimally sweat their butts off.
There is no compensation for this. They get assumed free coms and gen and perk coordination. Which compared to a solo q team is an insane difference.
I argue this more for solo q then killer. As killer if I sweat my ass off and bring perks/play dirty I'm usually guaranteed a 2k at min. not including those crazy coordinated team which can result in a loss. As solo q this means that most killers either tunnel me out or tunnel someone else out early on and guarntee that the lack of coordination or perks geared in teams using busted stuff is going to result in the killers wiping the team.
The fix is to add a disadvantage to swf. No this doesnt mean punish people who want to play with their friends. This does mean that there needs to be a acknowledgement that you have an advantage over solo q and are going to accept a penalty to bring you to solo q levels. This level should be the base relationship between the killer role and survivor role.
These should be experimented on to determine what nerfs to swf should make them equivalent to soloq. This means that the results of swf should be tracked compared to solo. Go slow. Make sure its not anything insane.
This should go in the opposite direction as well. If the nerfs in fact bring swf to solo q levels then the tools killer uses to counter well-coordinated swfs should be nerfed as well.
Swf mains are going to complain and argue so they maintain their position to be able to bully killers but this needs to be counteracted with information gained through the difference between solo q and swf.
In conclusion there are extremes to this game that hold the opposite hostage because of their advantage. This instance is Swf holds solo q hostage because of their heavy advantage forces killers to play dirty or run busted build over all teams including teams that are unable to handle it like solo q.
There are other conversations on the opposite end that need to be talked about. How nurse and blight and other busted killer builds make survivors feel like that they need to be in a swf to survive them.
However as of right now swf is top dog and needs to be addressed first.
All I want is the extremes to be brought in so that we all can enjoy the game in spite of the sweaty players. Please be productive if you are adding to the conversation.

This is why they need to create separate queues.

You create an "unranked "queue which is solo queue only, and can give killers more handicaps to weaken them and/or give survivors more buffs. Maybe in this mode for example the AFC works a bit harder, and the basekit BT lasts a bit longer, or maybe it makes them a bit faster. Maybe survivors get basekit kindred/bond for example or gens go back to 80 or even 70 seconds. This mode can also give bonus bloodpoints to both sides for playing more "fun"

Then you have a "ranked queue" which is where SWF can be. In this mode, you enable voice chat, so if you play it solo you can communicate. This mode can be balanced differently to give survivors more handicaps. Maybe gens take 100 seconds instead of 90. Maybe the penalty to working on gens together is high. Maybe killers get basekit corrupt or basekit noed (forcing the survivors to do some totems). Maybe the killer just moves 5% faster, or the survivors move at 95% speed instead of 100%. This one can give bonus bloodpoints for winning the game at all costs.

These are all just examples, but the point is, you split up the modes and balance them differently.

in I'm back and its time for a real conversation about what swf does to this game Comment by Reinami December 11, 2023

@WW1PilotAce said:
Since the implementantion of the "anticamp" mechanic i have been camped, proxycamped and facecamped close to a houndred times the "anticamp" mechanic has worked once.
As a solution to tunneling base borrow time also fails but at least it was something, the anticamp is the same as nothing.

And here-in lies the problem.

You are correct that the "anticamp" mechanic was a completely failure because no such mechanic exists.

Lets take a look at the patch notes shall we?

I'll highight it for you:

Now lets see here. Ah i see. It clearly states in the patchnotes that this is not an "anticamp" feature but an "ANTI FACE-CAMP FEATURE"

Looks like its working fine if you are getting proxy camped. And if you are getting "face camped" the mechanic kicks in pretty quickly and you should be able to unhook yourself.

But if the killer leaves you, then comes back 20 seconds later, they are not facecamping.

in The anticamping mechanic is failure in all senses Comment by Reinami December 11, 2023

@solarjin1 said:
whatttttttttt! no way.... how???
some of the vet forum users was telling me it was stronger than before. How is it not stronger with it highly situational activation requirement?? topsy turvy man

Firstly,

Nightlight is not a good place to go for statistics, because it is an extremely small sample size of the games that are actually played

Secondly,

Lets look at actually officially released data from a few months ago

Usage rate =/= effectiveness. Of course something with a higher skill ceiling is going to have less use rate. Because for some reasonthis community thinks you always need to balance and look at "average" players. Even nightlight, which is not accurate, is showing something similar that the previously released statistics are showing. Look at all of those perks and think about it, what do the vast majority of them have in common?

Windows of opportunity
MFT
Adrenaline
Resilience
Lithe
Self care
Deja Vu
Sprint Burst
Dead Hard
Kindred

I'll give you a minute to think about it before i tell you the answer, but i really want you to think about it before you scroll down. Are you ready? Ok here we go...

All of these perks with the exception of Windows of Opportunity and MFT are perks that are either baseline, are are given to you on survivors for free from buying the game (or in the case of david, completing the tutorial). The 2 outliers here are MFT and Windows of Opportunity.

My explanation for WOO being there is that it is an amazing noob perk when you are new at the game and have no idea where anything is. It helps you learn maps faster and get to safety even if you aren't familiar with a map. If anything, this shows that WOO Should probably be made into a base perk that everyone gets.

What is the other outlier? MFT. Which this was before its nerf. And this shows that there is probably something wrong with MFT before the nerf. If its usage rate is SO high that it is actually beating out free perks so shortly after its release. Meaning you can't have it from shrine, you HAD to buy the DLC. This shows 2 things.

1) The singularity chapter was a financial success. Given that at least 21% of survivors owned the DLC, meaning that at minimum if DBD had a million players, they sold 168,000 copies of that DLC

2) MFT was a problem because of just how much of an outlier it was compared to all of the free non-paid perks.

You know what else those usage stats showed though? That self-care was the 6th most use survivor perk. Now, if we looked and balanced things based on usage statistics, this probably puts self-care in the "needs a nerf" range right? And i think we can all agree that currently self care is probably one of the worst perks in the game. So in short. Stop looking at usage statistics for your balance decisions. Especially from non-official sources.

Because do you know what else your "precious" nightlight shows? That

Skull merchant is the most OP killer in the game
Skull merchant, Twins, Onryo, Wraith, Chucky, Pyramid Head and DOCTOR all have a higher win rate than NURSE
That all of those above killers and myers and hag have a higher win rate than BLIGHT

And if you think that doctor needs a nerf and is more OP than nurse, than i have a bridge to sell you.

in MFT is no longer in Top 10 Comment by Reinami December 11, 2023

@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3603697#Comment_3603697
Except it doesn't, does it?
Otherwise killers wouldn't be doing it.

Watch a comp match sometime.

in Why do you hate when killers tunnel but its fine when survivors do it? Comment by Reinami December 7, 2023

@crogers271 said:
The perks are fine. If you told me Pop was getting a tiny nerf I'd understand, but being BHVR doesn't do tiny I'd rather they not touch it. Both perks can be played around and/or brute forced through.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602883#Comment_3602883
The meta shakeup was pointless. All it did was change which perks were used, but the perks that are still used are functionally the same.
No, they're radically different. Have people forgotten how long a game could drag on because of Overbrine? Or how Eruption just left survivors unable to do anything but run around?
Gen regression perks are always going to be part of the game unless you define meta shakeup as rewrite the game code - the current setup is both healthier and feels substantially different from what it used to be.

You are missing the point. Look at the meta for both sides and how it has changed over the years. For context, i first started around the time just before legion was released so that is where my knowledge of metas goes back to.

Killer metas:

First we have our baseline around patch 2.4 (when i started playing, i don't have knowledge of the game's metas before this)
- Ruin + Pop (gen defense)
Then in 3.5.0 they changed ruin to the passive regression we have and people switched
- Corrupt + Pop (gen defense)
Then in 4.2.0 blight came out and we got undying so everyone switched again
- Ruin + Undying + tinkerer (gen defense)
Then in 4.5.0 they changed undying to only work one time instead of switching totems constantly so people switched for a bit to the recently buffed thana in patch 4.3.0
- Forever builds [Thana/Dying Light/Sloppy/legion/plague/freddy] remember forever freddy? (gen defense)
People realized that ruin + undying was still good so they switched back to that
- Ruin + Undying + tinkerer (gen defense)
Patch 5.4 saw us getting pain resonance, and around that time we had 4 solid builds that most people used depending on the killer or their playstyle
- Ruin + Undying + tinkerer (gen defense based on pressure)
- Pop + Corrupt + tinkerer (gen defense based on kicking)
- Pain Resonance + Dead man's Switch + Corrupt + tinkerer (Gen defense based on hooks)
- Hex Plaything + Hex Pentimento + Corrupt (Gen defense based on totems), this one was used much less because of circle of healing, but it still was around.
Patch 6.1 was the infamous "meta shakeup" where they buffed thanataphobia, overcharge, and surge and eruption, and nerfed pain resonance/dead mans switch combo, tinkerer ruin and pop. For a few weeks people were confused on what to do as a killer so things were shifting around quickly but:
First people realized the buffed thana brought back forever builds, so we again had
- Thanataphobia + Dying light + Corrupt + sloppy on legion/plague/freddy/etc. (gen defense)
They very quickly gutted thana to be completely useless in 6.1.2 after that, then people started looking at the infamous 3 gen era
- Call of Brine + Eruption + Overcharge (Gen defense)
This only became worse in 6.4 when they released the knight and we got nowhere to hide.
- Call of Brine + Eruption + Overcharge + Nowhere to hide (Gen defense)
Then in 6.6.0 they nerfed Eruption but 3 gen was still a thing with
- Call of Brine + Overcharge + Nowhere to hide (Gen defense)
Then in 6.7 they gutted call of brine and overcharge and changed pain resonance to be what we have now and work with DMS again
- Pain Resonance + Dead man's Switch + Corrupt (Gen defense)
Then 7.0 they buffed pop back up to reasonable levels again and we have the meta we have now today
- Pain resonance + Pop + Corrupt (Gen defense)

You'll see in there sometimes we have 1 or 2 extra perk slots to fill up depending on the patch and the killer, but in general most top tier players used the same 3 perks every game with some small variety from there. But what is important is the functionality of those perks. Since 2.4 (and probably before, i just don't know) the killer meta has always been "take the best gen defense combo you can and whatever else you want" every single time.

Yes, technically COB/OC/Eruption is a "little" different than Ruin + Undying, but functionally they are exactly the same. They serve the same purpose. Everytime they nerf the current "Thing" people just gravitate to the next best" thing" and that "Thing" is never something interesting like "lets be stronger in chase" or "lets get a ton of information" the "thing" is always "delay the gens as long as possible"

The survivor side you'll mostly see the same thing as well where every survivor takes

1) the most broken exhaustion perk

2) Some sort of anti tunnel perk (DS/BT/OTR/whatever)

3) Some sort of gen perk (prove thyself/hyperfocus)

4) Some kind of wildcard

Maybe the perks themselves change, but functionally they serve the same purpose.

in What’s with every Killer running Pain Res and Pop? Comment by Reinami December 7, 2023

@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602871#Comment_3602871
You still got the full killer experience in that though, you just got less of it. You still get to chase and pressure gens. That doesn't go for survivors, who end up doing only a portion of their gameplay.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602876#Comment_3602876
"Again, we are just pointing out the hypocrisy here. Nobody is suggesting that killers "think gens being done is a problem" we are simply pointing out that killers get yelled at for tunneling, but nobody cares when survivors do it. The double standard is real."
It's not a double standard at all, you are messing up the lingo.
Survivors doing gens is not "tunnelling" gens. Tunnelling is focusing on one of the targets. If the survivors are all throwing themselves at one specific generator, that makes your job as killer easier. It's virtually impossible to clear a gen that's being camped, as illustrated by Chess Merchant.
You are intentionally misappropriating the term 'tunnelling' to draw up a false equivalence, and then you get mad about it.

If killers throw themselves at once specific survivor, that makes your job as survivor much easier "just do gens" as it were.

in Why do you hate when killers tunnel but its fine when survivors do it? Comment by Reinami December 7, 2023

@Dogma_loki said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3603048#Comment_3603048
Hyperbole much?
Theres not "multiple god pallets" on any map Ive ever played.

Most maps have:

A killer shack
A main building with a god pallet
Jungle gyms

All of these are not mindgameable by any killer that isn't nurse but when speaking about "god pallets" nurse shouldn't really come into the equation.

Every forced pallet break adds at minimum 20 seconds to a chase. So all you need to do is force a single pallet break, then run into a corner of the map, and by the time the killer hooks you, it will have been about 2 minutes (when you factor in the time it took the killer to find you) meaning 3 gens finished by the other survivors.

in What’s with every Killer running Pain Res and Pop? Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@ShowNoMercy said:
Players are trying so hard to change this party game into a international tournament / e-sports game. This game is supposed to be fun and relaxing but it's becoming a chore, a job. Rush the generators quickly or tunnel the survivor to their demise. Equip the best build. T-bag everywhere. Slug 4 survivors and bleed them out.
I'm not saying the past was any better far from it. I just think it really hasn't changed when it comes to players mindset and how everything has to be "I have to use the best perks, items, addons, offerings, killer, survivor, etc." and demanding changes for their personal needs.
Twitch.tv streamers and YouTube channels makes it worse by uploading or streaming clickbait titles and telling you to do this to always win the game. It's like they're encouraging this playstyle.
What I'm trying to say is that people are taking this game way too seriously.

This is what happens when you do MMR.

Remember the old days of Call of Duty on xbox? When you just get into a lobby, people are just vibing? Occasionally you'd get some really good player in there and what would happen? People would go "damn that guy is good" and compliment them and see it as a cool thing.

But now that MMR is a thing, this is all that happens, you get games where you have to sweat constantly or you are going to lose. And everyone is rude to each other and toxic? "Everybody just yells and screams at each other. Nobody's civil anymore."

The only solution to this is to remove MMR entirely, or to create a separate ranked queue so that people can have a casual mode and a ranked mode.

in I hate how competitive this game has become Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@Chaosrider said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602337#Comment_3602337
Tunneling means "A killer focuses solely on a single survivor until he/she is dead". Survivors arent killers, and SURPRISE killers are killers.Sigh.

Tunneling also means : "A survivor focuses solely on completing a generators and forgoing anything else, such as healing, doing totems, or helping their teammates"

in Why do you hate when killers tunnel but its fine when survivors do it? Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@ratcoffee said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602876#Comment_3602876
>nobody cares when survivors [do gens fast]
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/S21TF27JNO7N/screenshot-20231206-141825-chrome.jpg
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/CGL338XWPST0/screenshot-20231206-141747-chrome.jpg

The forum search is awful and most of those are probably threads where they are complaining about the killer tunneling.

in Why do you hate when killers tunnel but its fine when survivors do it? Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@Cypherius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602877#Comment_3602877
The level of gen efficiency you describe only happens at the higher levels and is not something solos can do consistently, on the other hand Tunneling happens at all levels of play.
This is why one is complained more than the other. The amount of survivors getting tunneled is higher than the amount of killers getting "gen rushed". This is not a double standard.
I am curious what killers you are playing that you normally struggle to get a draw. In my experience losing 2/3 gens early is common but not a big deal unless i am playing a low tier killer. After the first down you can snowball a lot of pressure.

I generally play every killer, but i am a nurse main because she is the only killer who can compete at that level.

And that is precisely my point. The same people in this forum who will complain about that blight on a 1k win streak are the exact same people who will look at people like ayrun/otz/hens doing their big win streaks handicapping themselves as "totally fine" because "most people aren't at that level"

If one is ok, than the other is ok.

If one is not ok, than the other is not ok.

You don't get to have it both ways.

in Why do you hate when killers tunnel but its fine when survivors do it? Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602885#Comment_3602885
Then the map is a dead zone and chases are way faster

Predropping 2 god pallets creates a dead zone? What game are you playing? Also, after that if they hold shift+w and run to a corner of the map even without using pallets or doing anything else its still gonna take you a solid 45-50 seconds to hook them.

in What’s with every Killer running Pain Res and Pop? Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@BubMickey07 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602634#Comment_3602634
It really is but this fourm wasn't posted for fighting

Playing the game isn't toxic. Nor is playing to win.

in Okay I'm tired of him Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@not_Queef said:
Because it's absurdly strong and pretty much guarantees a 4k, especially if you tunnel somebody out and still have three stacks of Pain Res.
I've pretty much abandoned survivor until these perks get nerfed.
Repairing 7-8 gens every game is just incredibly tedious.

You know what else is incredibly tedious? Chasing the first survivor for 30 seconds while they predrop multiple god pallets, you make a solid mindgame or 2 and down them. And then what happens? 3 gens immediately pop.

That also is tedious.

in What’s with every Killer running Pain Res and Pop? Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@TheycallmeLix said:
Like EVERY GAME the Killer has this combo and it makes completing gens really impossible. And on top of that, they also tunnel at 5-4 gens.. When is this combo gonna get nerfed? I thought there was a ‘MeTa ShAkEuP’ every 6 months so the game doesn’t get stale.

I mentioned this in a previous thread but survivor mains told me i was wrong.

The meta shakeup was pointless. All it did was change which perks were used, but the perks that are still used are functionally the same. Killers still take 3-4 gen slowdown perks, its just now instead of it being ruin or cob/oc/eruption its pain res/pop. Still regressing gens functionally, but slightly different.

Survivors still run perks that allow them to rush gens (resilience/hyperfocus/adrenaline (takes away the punishment of not healing)) or extend chases (windows/any exhaustion perk) or to prevent the killer from "killing" (DS/OTR/UB).

You'll still see functionally the same perks every game, its just that the perks may change. This will continue to happen regardless of how many meta shakeups they do, until the fundamental game is completely changed such that these perks are no longer necessary.

Ideally, the game should be balanced in such a way that both sides can take 0 perks, 0 items, 0 addons and win 50% of the time.

in What’s with every Killer running Pain Res and Pop? Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@Raccoon said:
Survivors SHOULD do gens as fast as possible.
Killers SHOULD take every opportunity to remove Survivors as quickly as possible.

You are one of the rare ones then, every day on the front page of here there is always some thread complaining about "killers tunneling"

in Why do you hate when killers tunnel but its fine when survivors do it? Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@Krazzik said:
It's tricky. Yes, survivors focusing on doing gens as fast as possible is really no different than a killer focusing on getting kills as fast as possible. I suppose the reason why many more people complain about the killer tunnelling is that when a killer tunnels, it removes much more agency from the other player.
The person being tunneled doesn't really feel like they got to play the game properly, as they were just constantly in chases back-to-back without even being able to recover between them. Especially if the person isn't very good in chase, they'll get killed super fast without having any fun and without getting any BP, and be right back in the lobby.
When survivors 'tunnel' gens, the killer still has all their agency. They can still start chases and down survivors and get hooks. They can still 'play the game', even if the game is much shorter. They'll still end up with some BP and maybe even got to have a good chase or two.
I understand that 'tunneling gens' is still very annoying for killers and when decent survivors actually focus on doing gens, there isn't much the killer can do to slow them down much, even with gen perks. Games go too fast at a certain level and that's a big issue that then causes people to feel like they have play in these efficent-but-unfun ways.
Still, when killers tunnel it removes much more player agency and I think that's the thing.

If you are complaining about killers taking away "agency" you are playing the wrong game, or at least the wrong role.

The entire game is fundamentally DESIGNED such that, survivors attempt to do a thing, and the killers goal is to stop them, by removing the survivor's agency to do anything.

Being on the hook

Being slugged

Being dead

all of these things remove your agency to do anything as a player, either you are removed, or you are relying on a teammate to save you while you sit there and do nothing.

in Why do you hate when killers tunnel but its fine when survivors do it? Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@BlightedTrapper said:
The difference is tunneling effectively disallows that survivor from playing the game. There's nothing survivors can do that makes the game basically unplayable for the killer.

Tunneling gens also disallows the killer from playing the game. If you aren't regularly losing 3 gens in the first chase due to efficient survivors, then you aren't at high MMR. Which is fine, but we are just pointing out how different our experience is.

It is normal for us to have chases that last 20-30 seconds, and still end up with only 1 dead and 5-6 hooks at the endgame hoping to hook the last one in the basement to at least secure a draw.

in Why do you hate when killers tunnel but its fine when survivors do it? Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602450#Comment_3602450
If a Gen being done is a problem to people, they should not queue up as the role that dont want Gens being done.
I go back mostly playing killers (Myers to be specified) because I cant stand eliminated in 5min. Its killers main turn to play mostly survivors, they will not be sad when a Gen is done.

Again, we are just pointing out the hypocrisy here. Nobody is suggesting that killers "think gens being done is a problem" we are simply pointing out that killers get yelled at for tunneling, but nobody cares when survivors do it. The double standard is real.

Similarly people complain when killers bring Corrupt/Pop/Painres/BBQ on blight with god-tier addons, but when survivors bring, Adren/Resilience/Sprint Burst/Commodius/BNP/Insta heal/Sending you to garden of joy. That is totally fine though.

I'm simply pointing out double standards here because they tend to get ignored on these forums.

in Why do you hate when killers tunnel but its fine when survivors do it? Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@Dreamnomad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602358#Comment_3602358
I can't believe I have to say this but generators aren't people. Survivors aren't ruining the generators game experience by finishing them before they have a chance to play. What are you even talking about?

But generators being done ends the game quickly and ruins the killers chance to play the game before it is even finished. Have you never gone against a SWF bully squad and get 1 hook and have all gens done in 4 minutes while they teabag the gates as they leave because they predropped 8000 god pallets and sent you to garden of joy?

in Why do you hate when killers tunnel but its fine when survivors do it? Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3601964#Comment_3601964
The point i'm making is. If i had gone after that guy, and punished him for his mistake there. I would have been called out, called a "tunneler trash killer" etc.
This is supposition on how a person might have reacted. In my games end game chat of any type if pretty rare, at most a 'gg gl next'. Sure, there are games when people are toxic, but its usually silence.
But let's say your region is different. Okay, don't take the comments people make after a game as serious. Trolling is, regrettably, a thing and many people are likely just trying to get a rise out of you because they lost. No one is going to post 'Hey, great job killer, I thought you were distracted by another chase, so I jumped on a gen, good eye seeing me there!' That's just not how people talk in online games.
In my experience on these forums most people who complain about tunneling want the emphasis to be on BHVR to make changes. There's definitely an element of targeting killers if they pursue an 'unfun' playstyle, but that goes both ways. Killers complain about survivors bringing 4 BNPs, ideally they'd like BHVR to address that, but barring it would prefer players to stop.
Ultimately fun is why both sides complain about the issue so much. Losing a survivor quickly results in a pointless slog for the remaining 3, SWF gen rush makes the killer feel like they can't even play the game.
Play how you want. I don't tunnel as killer because I hate the experience of being 3 v 1 with anything more than 2 gens left to go. If the chat bothers you, turn it off.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3602009#Comment_3602009
He's being sarcastic, Dunwich generally finds survivor complaints to be without merit from what I recall.

I figured, but anytime anyone retorts with "i regularly 4k so its fine" on any argument i always ask for a video. It is a win/win/win situation. Because either:

A) They actually are legit and have discovered something that we as a community have not, so if they post a video, we all can learn and get better from it win

B) They are just flat out lying, in which case they either won't post a video or they'll say they don't have time etc. Thus, we now know we can just ignore their comment entirely because it is meaningless win

C) They do post a video, and they DO regularly 4k, but it becomes clear that the caliber of players they are going against is not the same as when these types of discussions are met. The survivors throw themselves at the killer, they are busy doing challenges, they just in general are really bad at the game. Thus we can point this out to the player, and they either learn from it on their side and now know, or they rage about it and we know we can ignore their comment win.

in Why do you hate when killers tunnel but its fine when survivors do it? Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@Dreamnomad said:
You can't "tunnel" a gen. What are you even talking about? Is this an episode of The Twilight Zone? Am I being pranked?

Can killers tunnel a survivor?

in Why do you hate when killers tunnel but its fine when survivors do it? Comment by Reinami December 6, 2023

@GoofyGooberRock said:
Is he good is he bad?
do you think he's a weak killer or an op killer discussion time!

He is pretty strong, i'd say around upper B Tier. But he is going to struggle against really good SWF teams due to having no map pressure in his kit and the long cooldown on his power. I'd say he is the ideal killer to be an anchor to balance the game around.

in So with chucky being out for a little bit how is everyone feeling about him? Comment by Reinami December 5, 2023

@Chaosrider said:
Survivors cant tunnel by definition. And stop making those nonsense comparisons.

Then neither can killers.