Reinami
Reinami
About
- Username
- Reinami
- Joined
- Visits
- 6,317
- Last Active
Comments
-
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623760#Comment_3623760
The actual strat for survivors now might be to intentionally 3 gen themselves, and then force the killer into the point where they can't regress gens anymore.I thought 'SWFs will exploit anti-face camp' and 'MFT nerf will actually be a buff' were the most outlandish arguments I would see, but 2024 is off to a strong start.
How in the world does this happen? Have survivors suddenly gotten infinite downs and pallets? If they are running around tapping gens why is the killer kicking these low progress gens? And not just kicking once, but 8 times?
Killers are getting a gen regression buff.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623831#Comment_3623831
Typical matches has way more cases of eruption triggeringYou're triggering eruption more than 4 times a match on a gen? That's a "typical match"?
Eruption has a cooldown of 30 seconds. That means, at absolute fastest case scenario you would have to kick the gen, chase and down a survivor, go back to the gen 30 seconds later and kick it again, get into another chase and down a survivor, go to the gen 30 seconds later and kick it, get into yet another chase and down, go back to the same gen 30 seconds later and kick it, and then get into another chase with a survivor and down them.
Even if we presume the average time to chase is 30 seconds and you kick a gen immediately after the eruption cooldown ends, that's four minutes of game play on just this one gen (for which you also got 60% regression not counting any passive regression). This presumes an absolute perfect scenario where you go back to the gen to kick it right as the timer expires, much more likely this scenario would take twice that long. Either you should have a bunch of dead survivors or they should have been doing the other gens while this was going on.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624646#Comment_3624646
Ruin is not a gen regression event.
This is exactly what many were worried about, as survivors 3-genning themselves and the killer capitalising on it was seen as fair. Now survivors can just do whatever gens they want and don't need to worry.Let's say the survivors completely ignore 3 gens.
Let's say you as the killer don't just camp those gens.
This means while four other gens have been getting done you've been chasing survivors, getting downs and hooks, eating through resources, etc.
So let's say we get to the situation where there are 3 gens left.
If you've been at least partially successful in your chases up to this point, the 8 gen regression events you have on the gens will be more than enough. You're chases should be shorter and the survivors should be facing death hook scenarios. Either you finish them off here, or they get a gen done, but you're unlikely to regress any gen 8 times in this situation.
If on the other hand you've lost the chases badly and you have four healthy survivors, well the gen regression limit is irrelevant. Either the survivors are going to make a mistake allowing you to snowball, or they are going to finish the gens before you can regress them that many times. Survivors splitting up on gens can finish them well before the killer can run back and forth kicking them each 8 times.
8 regressions is a massive amount. Like AFC maybe this will trigger once every couple months for killers during the course of normal gameplay (and that's a big maybe, I think this would happen even less than accidental triggering of the AFC), but realistically the only people who are triggering that are 3 gen campers from the start.
In a 3 gen scenario, with a team of survivors that communicate, this is absolutely possible. You simple call out when the killer starts running to someone else, that person preruns really hard, meaning that they are probably running at 24-30 meters away. Do you know how long it takes a killer to catch up to a survivor that is 30 meters away to hit them? 44 seconds. And that is just for a single hit. Now to down them, its another 20 seconds if they just shift + w.
By the time the killer walks back to the gen that the other survivors are doing, that gen will be finished. And, if the killer abandons the chase, that survivor just calls out to the others that the killer dropped chase, and they get ready to run super early again, that injured survivor (if the killer actually injured them) just gets healed up, and they repeat until the killer can't regress the gens anymore and they slowly get the gens worked on until they are complete while being almost 100% safe.
You don't even need pallets or windows or anything.
Then factor in that these teams communicate super hard, and you are likely going to get 3 gens done for the first down. The killer stands 0 chance against these teams now if they want to drag the game out.
As for the AFC mechanic, it was pretty abusable at launch before they added the grace period on it, so now its a lot less abusable which is nice. However i have had a handful of matches where someone runs me to the survivor who is hooked in say, basement shack, i start mindgaming, but instead of running the tile, they just leave the tile to somewhere else, so while i'm mindgaming a survivor that isn't there the timer is ticking away. However this has been less of a problem due to the grace period and the better vertical detection on camping.
Lastly, Against these top tier teams, yeah MFT was not quite a buff, but it is still strong. When i face these coordinated teams, they typically run dead hard/DS/MFT/hyperfocus(or some healing perk) you know, all those dead perks that kept getting nerfed? I wonder why top teams continue to run them....
-
@Xyvielia said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624338#Comment_3624338
isn’t DH for distance one of the reasons Coup De Grâce was created, or was it never a viable counter?
Totally not being a arse… I never used Coup, or DH more than a couple handfulls of times, and never tried, so I actually don’t really know. I just thought that was supposed to be the answer, but it never really caught on, or worked against old DH or whatevz?🤷🏼♀️🫣
That's not what "dead hard for distance" means. The purpose of dead hard was to dodge a hit, which, when used like that, coup could sometimes work if timed perfectly. But "dead hard for distance" meant that, someone would go around a loop, and then dead hard to get to a pallet or window that they otherwise would have missed, but they are still out of range of the killer attack. This was uncounterable basically.
-
@FlamingkittyUmad said:
- To elaborate with the title: Please revert the game to it's mechanical state in 2019, keeping all killers/ survivors added since then, but redo every single perk, addon, item at the same time so we can get a sense of consistency.
- This post is mostly closure for me. The issues in this game run very deep and I don't genuinely think they can/ will be sincerely addressed. BHVR has gotten too large as a company and doesn't have the same development process/ values it used to have, and a lot of the new/ inexperienced players (who by far outnumber the older/ experienced players because of how fast the game has grown) dogpile on you for the most basic opinion (being facecamped isn't fun or fair for either team).
- This feedback is mostly presented as negative because it's far more effective and easier to point out something bad than to just talk about what's good, ill talk about what I like about the game more in first couple paragraphs to compensate against this.
I've been playing this game since late 2017, I have over 3.7k hours as a non-streamer and I have been consistently playing (at least 8 hours a week, barring breaks) since then up until early-mid 2023 where I essentially retired from killer, and then survivor soon after. I have a lot of experience in both killer (to the point of being able to competently play the majority of killers) and survivor (mostly as a solo but I SWF up sometimes). I fell in love with this game- the atmosphere, the lore, the gameplay; it quickly became my obsession and I would play it in my dreams. End Game Collapse was one of the best updates in my memory to the game. Not only did it fix long standing issues (survivors holding the game hostage by opening gates and hiding for 30 minutes), but every detail was beautifully executed- the animations, the sound design, the lore implications, the mechanical aspects, there was no part about this update that felt unfair for either side. The art, the soundscape, the premise behind the game universe, even with how green a lot of realms used to look, I can't think of a time in dbd's history where I thought anything was ugly, and this is mostly what kept me in the game for so long despite how repetitive the gameplay can be sometimes.
I fell out of love with the game because killer gameplay is no challenge 99% of the time and when 'playing' survivor your actions have no impact on whether you live or die, as you exist only for the killer to toy with before killing. I tried playing perkless killers for a while and I'd still 4k every match (giving hatch to most fun player) by 2-hooking every survivor and not killing anyone (last hook -> leave slugged) until the last 1-2 gens. Only a sweaty swf group was challenging, and I'd lose to that 1-in-100 group only because I had nothing.
I will remind my fellow vets that this used to be a fun and casual game where you could play funny meme builds and not tryhard, but today you can't play a single match without sweating it out with a full meta build where both teams play like robots. I fear newer players will never be able to experience a casual DbD.
BHVR isn't the only ones who changed, the community changed too. We went from a small niche game that was the first of it's kind to a massive industry that inspired it's own brand new genre, but with everything, adding more and more people to a community too quickly tends to dilute it and destroy the unspoken rules and customs built by the community, including the eventual sterilization of "offensive" aspects of the game. Bubba's survivor masks were important to bubba's lore, you can't change it just because a few people use it while they do bad things because it didn't actually address the bad behavior; changing the Dead Dawg offering to remove the noose was pointless considering people are hung from meat hooks multiple times a match; and introducing new aspects to the lore of established characters, like David. If you wanted to do this, do it at a character's introduction or shortly afterwards, the way this was done at the time never felt genuine to me, especially not when people were banned (including gay people) for saying it was in poor taste.
- THIS IS YOUR TL;DR:
If you're going to take anything from reading this, understand that the quickly expanding community ironically brought in more toxicity than anything else, and the huge influx of inexperienced players made it much harder to properly balance the game. This caused more and more backlash against BHVR- fair or unfair- and this is why I think they stopped communicating with the community as there's no way of telling who is a dedicated fan to the game and who is a tourist with 25 hours that acts like an expert. BHVR isn't exactly a new company but I assume that, as the team working on dbd expanded, the new people had a different vision than the original team.Here's a loose list of some specific issues in the game's history I can remember off the top of my head, top of the list is most important and less important as you do down. it's not exhaustive as I could write a book here if I wanted to:
-6.1.0 was my personal last straw. Not only did it buff a lot of aspects of killer gameplay, but it directly nerfed survivors at the same time, at a point in time where the game was heavily balanced towards the killer's favor. Reducing successful hit recovering times AND at the same time giving survivors less distance from being hit drastically increased what should have been a slight adjustment. This whole patch was the mother of all bandaids on top of a mountain of bandaids. If you're going to do a massive adjustment like this, do it 5% for one side at a time, not what was essentially a 20% buff for killers to both gens and chase. The base kit borrowed time change was in the right directly but even today it still doesn't fully address the tunneling and camping meta.
-Crossplay was implemented poorly. The option *needed* to be disabled by default to ease the community into it and allow new players to play on a level playing field. Console players, both killers and survivors, are not as capable as a pc player with the same level of experience, and this difference can still be seen to this day. Blame the differences in hardware between the platforms, blame the accuracy and how many more keys a Mouse & Keyboard has over a controller, but no one can argue the difference doesn't exist. As it stands now, no one can disable crossplay without a 5x wait time, but this wouldn't have been an issue if crossplay was disabled by default because the crowd that opt into it across all platforms at least consent to the skill difference and would make up a decently sized group on thier own. Here's the game's totem pole, from top to bottom: Coordinated SWF team -> Experienced/ Veteran killer player -> Uncoordinated SWF team -> average killer, more than 50 hours -> solo queue pc survivors -> -> -> solo queue console survivors. I have to stress that this is based on years of experience and I'm not "just hating on console players".
-Balance updates feel detached from the game. There are "numbers" changes and there are "new mechanic" changes, and the trend is that the adjustment to numbers were too heavy to do what they aimed for, while new mechanics added to the game were usually too underwhelming to do what they needed. I know it has to cater across the entire game at all skill levels, but what the game needs is major mechanics that fix major flaws in the game design, and what we consistently get are Bandaid adjustments that change a stat by 1% or 2% without addressing why these were an issue in the first place. Take the lastest jan 2024 STBFL nerf for example, 1% less effect per token doesn't fix the perk, even after remove the "m2 obsession" loophole. The new "8 regression events" mechanic is only good in theory because it would have to be set to 4 to affect 3-genning, and it have to only come into effect when there are 3 or 4 gens left to prevent coordinated survivors from abusing it.
-Misc changes: The FoV change that going into the dying state caused during that one ptb was really cool and added to the game immersion, the "finisher mori" system from over a year ago would have fit perfectly into the game as it was and would have had fewer issues than most normal updates. People don't really use Moris much anymore so this would have been a perfect time to update the moris for some older killers too.
-A constant focus on more killers over new content. The content cycle for a while has been New perks/ killer to become the new meta -> number change patch but rarely any deep meaningful changes -> new perks/ killers to become the new meta. New content is good but not when it splits the game apart.
-I think the last tome I read the lore for war Tome 8. I'd still do all the challenges, to 100% before the next tome, but it took so long to unlock the next part of the story that there were too many cliffhangers. 1 tome per trial was always annoying and it artificially extended how long it actually took to do them, most survivor challenges take 2-3 matches where most killer ones can be done in a single match.
-Perks being made useless or absurd for no reason. "Deadhard for distance" was always overshadowed by just using sprint burst and using the perk for it's intended purpose never worked because 1) being right behind a survivor gave killer priority for a hit, even if DH was times for the same frame the killer attacks and 2) was always easy to counter by waiting it out. Current DH is entirely non-viable because most of it's utility is gone, it's activation requirement realistically restricts it to 2 times per game max, and the original issue with the perk "just not working" still exists". Current DS is also trash as 3/4 of killers can hard-counter the 3 second stun, part of which the survivor is stuck in an animation. Botany/ the medkit nerf was done dirty because of how overbearing most anti-heal perks continue to be, Mangled's "passing healing reversal" stat was a horrible idea, killers can still easily stack anti-gen perks to hold the game hostage. Boons were always overrated because killer player didn't understand they had to be kicked asap when you pass by them and that doing so mid chase was never an issue. Not really a perk but Sabo'ing/ flashlights are so far out of the meta that you could remove both and no one would really notice. I could write a section here about perks alone that would be longer than what i've already written.
-same gameplay loop for 8 years. DbD Mobile is getting a prop hunt game mode, we're stuck with the same reskinned seasonal events year after year.
(🇮🇻🇪 🇧🇪🇪🇳 🇼🇷🇮🇹🇮🇳🇬 🇹🇭🇮🇸 🇫🇴🇷 3 🇭🇴🇺🇷🇸 🇳🇴🇼, 🇹🇮🇲🇪 🇹🇴 🇼🇷🇦🇵 🇮🇹 🇺🇵)
dead hard for distance was significantly more powerful than sprint burst.
I can't imagine how someone with this many hours who says they win "99% of the time" can possibly think the game is killer sided. Have you watched a tournament lately?
-
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624227#Comment_3624227
Come on. Everyone knows Nurse is a unique case. It was a bad faith argument that didn't warrant a response.
If Nurse was buffed to a point where 'average players' could consistently 2K with her for a 'fair kill rate' at all MMRs, she would be beyond broken at mid-high level play, let alone the top 1%.
None of this has been a good argument in favour of maintaining a 4 regression perk meta. I simply rolled my eyes and closed the thread.
So why is nurse a sudden exception? Where do you draw the line around "balancing for the average player"
-
@Reinami said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624165#Comment_3624165
Great, so where are my nurse buffs?
Because literally every single time BHVR releases statistics, nurse is by far the lowest kill rate killer in the game. Every single time, and not even by just a little, like significantly. One of the more recent times she was a full 5-10% below the next lowest killer.
So obviously if we balance around the average level players, then nurse is not only "not OP" in this case, but actually nurse needs major buffs.
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624219#Comment_3624219
Except cherry picking a single example of a particular event does nothing to suggest said event isn't 'rare'...
I like the part where you came back to the thread but didn't reply and address what i said. Because you realize that once you take your belief that the game should be balanced around average players to its logical and final conclusion, that the truth is undeniable and nurse needs buffs.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624166#Comment_3624166
If this list is meant to be a list of STBFL users, it's a little off the mark. Why is Legion on here? They have almost no use for STBFL, they injure almost exclusively with special attacks and shortening the cooldown after downing a survivor is of pretty limited value as well as leading to quite slow stack gain in the first place. Let's take them off the list before we continue, they don't really make any sense to be here.
We'll also call into question Knight and to a lesser extent Pig. Now, Knight's not actually all that low tier anyway, but more important for this list is that his M2 is not easy to mitigate stack loss with due to just... everything about how it works, it's much more potent as a vehicle to engineer M1s than it is a tool for actually damaging survivors. Pig is in a similar boat, but to be fair, that's just because her M2 is straight up bad rather than designed differently, so for the sake of argument we'll keep her.
With those two taken off, let's look at these killers.
Pig: Arguably not deserving to be on this list as I mentioned, but even assuming she's here, Pig's middle of the pack and not a low tier killer.
Demogorgon: Mid tier, not low tier.
Deathslinger: Again, mid tier, and also not that great at using STBFL anyway? Sure, there's the chain breaking trick, but he still has to basic attack the Obsession eventually.
Pyramid Head: Definitely a higher tier killer. Also kind of questionable to be on this list? I don't really play him though, so maybe good PHs can freely swap between M1 and M2.
Nemesis: Higher tier killer, gets reduced use from STBFL since his tentacle is better than an M1 in almost all scenarios.
So, our list here doesn't actually contain the one good STBFL user that is low tier - Trapper - and includes a bunch of killers that are not great users of the perk, not low tier killers, or both. The killers that actually use STBFL pretty well tend to not be low tier killers - aside from Trapper, killers like Myers, Clown, Ghostface, and Freddy don't actually have any special tricks for preventing stack loss reliably. Low tier killers don't use STBFL to begin with, mid tier killers do.
Also, not the point of the post, but more than just Nurse and Blight are viable. Even if we expand to just the A tier and assume everyone else is unsuable trash, that still leaves Spirit, Wesker, Plague, and a few others.
Name me one of those killers that can play against a team like hens and ayrun.
-
@D0NN1ED4RK0 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623820#Comment_3623820
Pyramid head does not need STBFL
if you play him with STBFL then you’re playing him wrong
Great, but we are still nerfing pig and legion then?
-
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624157#Comment_3624157
The tournament level players have always adapted to what the game has been. It has never been balanced at the highest level. This is why tournaments instill a host of restrictions.
It should absolutely be balanced around your average players, if it wasn't, there wouldn't be a game to play.
Great, so where are my nurse buffs?
Because literally every single time BHVR releases statistics, nurse is by far the lowest kill rate killer in the game. Every single time, and not even by just a little, like significantly. One of the more recent times she was a full 5-10% below the next lowest killer.
So obviously if we balance around the average level players, then nurse is not only "not OP" in this case, but actually nurse needs major buffs.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624130#Comment_3624130
Well, yes, but that's not the nerf being called attention to in the original post. I was responding to highlighting the stack loss nerf, which only a handful of killers are even in a position to notice -- and of those, only one of them is actually low tier.
All of them are. At a high level only nurse and blight are viable, and maybe spirit in some cases. But one ONE of these is low tier?
- Pig
- Legion
- Demogorgon
- Deathslinger
- Pyramid Head
- Nemesis
- Knight
Pig, legion, demo, deathslinger, nemesis, knight? Arguably PH maybe is the only one there that isn't "low tier" but that is only because he can hard tunnel super effectively. If he isn't playing scummy then he is also low tier.
-
@sharpef3rn said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624136#Comment_3624136
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624133#Comment_3624133
Okay so for you to lose all the stacks of eruption you would need 4 events which means that you took 60% from that one gen still have it on all the other ones possibly have survivors scream and show auras for 48 seconds AND got 4 downs. Which again generally means youre either winning or some shenanigans are going on.
Surge with Eruption I can almost guarantee will only count as one event, because they happen simultaneously, and a good example is you only see one explosion only hear one scream. But even if they dont that is still 61% you have taken from the one gen not counting anything else done by those perks or regression. A good way too see how strong that is is realizing that its out performing 2 pain res hooks on 3 any person downs before you hook them. Again it shouldnt effect your gameplay if that happens, unless you were focused on the 3 gen from the start.
yeah, 4 downs if you are hard tunneling or camping, sure then the game is over. But if you try to play slightly nice, what happens. Again this continues to force killers to play in the scummiest ways possible because the gens simply go too fast when you don't play that way.
-
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624150#Comment_3624150
Yes we get it only the 1% matter.
Ah yes, one of the "it doesn't matter because it is rare" people.
Let me ask, should the game be balanced around high level players or average level players?
-
@Peanits said:
Trouble is, by the time you realize the Killer is setting up a 3 gen, it's too late to switch your loadout - the match has already started. We can't expect everyone to run Deja Vu just in case.
But if that is the case then why are there so many other things in the game that work this way. Map offerings and a sac ward, doctor vs calm spirit, plot twist and deerstalker, lightborne and flashlights. The list can keep going. There are a ton of things in the game that it would be "too late" by the time you realize a thing happens to change your loadout. And so many perks that are so niche that they counter one specific thing the other side does that might not be that common.
-
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623999#Comment_3623999
It might actually stop people falling into the trap of stacking 4 regression perks.
You know, something people have asked for is a Exhaustion equivalent for regression perks. This kinda fits that niche.
So rip high level games then? Watch a tournament sometime, there is a reason killers stack 4 gen regression perks there.
What will actually happen though? The old build was:
corrupt + pop + pain res + flex perk
This gave you around 150-200 seconds of gen defense and a good early start with corrupt. The new meta will be
Corrupt + deadlock + grim embrace + flex perk (probably nowhere to hide)
This new one gives you 120 seconds from deadlock, and another 88 from grim embrace, bringing back to around 200 seconds of defense. And the better part is that it blocks the gen totally as well. Then factor in that they buffed the base kick amount to 5% and survivors can't gen tap anymore. This will be the new meta.
-
@sharpef3rn said:
8 regression events per gen.
But perks like eruption are more heavily nerfed, because eruption triggers an event twice. Once for the kick, and once again for the explosion. So now eruption can be at most used 4 times per gen. Which is starting to get very limiting.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3624014#Comment_3624014
That's the thing, though, they literally won't?
Pig maybe, she does have a special attack, but the only nerf the others will notice (excepting Trapper who I acknowledged) is the slight nerf to the wipe speed. They won't notice the nerf to the stack loss that OP draws attention to, because they don't have a special attack to begin with.
they also reduced it from 5% to 4% per stack. So they will still feel a nerf.
-
@[Deleted User] said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623786#Comment_3623786
There is nothing preventing survivors from doing that now. That's just how you break a hard 3 gen. Nothing is changing there aside from capping gen kicks at 8. There's no reason to even do that as a survivor team unless the killer is playing around that 3 gen from the start, in which case the gen order doesn't matter anyway.
Well currently the killer can keep regressing the gens. The point i'm making here is that it will make it so literally progress on the gens cannot possibly be deleted. So every second on the gen becomes a permanent second on the gen. So the strategy will be to just prerun super hard on those last 3 gens, and then eventually the killer can't regress them anymore, so that eventually you complete the gen.
-
@Rickprado said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623786#Comment_3623786
This kinda make low tier killers even worse because bad survivors in SWF can appeal to this strategy in case they are having a bad match. Now you HAVE TO down survivor as quickly as possible, or otherwise you will be punished.
Killer like Pig probably will suffer the most from this as they cannot instachase people and usually take the last gens to get hooks and deaths.
Exactly my point. Yet another change the nurse/blight don't care about, but makes trapper and pig cry.
-
@Gabe_Soma said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623813#Comment_3623813
No when I said "but also" I was referring to not low tier killers.
Deathslinger to make sure he sends down the obsession must still use his M1, so 2 stacks are lost regardless.
Its very common for deathslinger to let the chain break on the obsession and then ignore them because now they are in deep wound and are delayed a bit. Sure you can down them if they body block, but a down and hook on them is going to be really good for 2 stacks.
-
@Gabe_Soma said:
Low tier killers (Freddy, Trapper, Myers but also Doctor, Deathslinger, Clown, Wraith) don't get hurt by this since they all are M1 killers.
Lets look at the killers it potentially hurts to change the perk to work on all damage (ones that do damage with their power directly):
- Trapper (arguably)
- Hillbilly
- Nurse
- Huntress
- Bubba
- Pig
- Legion
- Plague
- Demogorgon
- Deathslinger
- Pyramid Head
- Blight
- Twins
- Trickster
- Nemesis
- Artist
- Wesker
- Knight
- Skull Merchant
- Xenomorph
- Chucky
Now lets remove the ones that don't actually use this perk or are top tier and aren't going to be impact by it:
- Pig
- Legion
- Demogorgon
- Deathslinger
- Pyramid Head
- Nemesis
- Knight
Are we really saying any of these killers needs a nerf?
-
@KayTwoAyy said:
I feel like this question doesn't even warrant explanation.
Opening the exit gates while a survivor is on hook or in chase is just disrespectful.
I believe that statistically speaking, "99ing the gates" actually kills more people than it saves. This is probably why the bots decide to just open the gate.
-
@GaunterODimmDBD said:
Prayers.
Na, he is still good, they did the right thing by fixing the addons and not touching the basekit killer.
-
@leowt said:
What I’m talking about is the random event where survivors let go of generators, get a skill check, and simply gets hit with a 10% gen regression out of dumb luck.
This should have been removed a long time ago, but given the Jan 2024 patch notes:
”At least 5% of the Generator’s total charges must be repaired to stop regression, otherwise it will begin regressing again when the Survivor stops repairing.”
This gameplay feature urgently needs to go.
I don't believe that failing a skill check makes the gen start regressing. It just gives a blanket 10% off the progress.
-
@Peanits said:
I just want to quickly chime in and mention that this mechanic does not kick in immediately. In order for a generator to be blocked, it would need to suffer from 8 separate regression events first. For context, this is well above the average number of times a given generator will be damaged in a given match.
The system will kick in eventually in those scenarios, but you will still have an opportunity to capitalize on their mistake beforehand and secure some hooks.
Right, but we are discussing how this creates a potential strategy for survivors where they intentionally 3 gen themselves, stall the game out, prerun every gen and basically make it so the killer can't regress gens anymore and then slowly working on them until they complete the gens. This is actually probably going to be a highly effective strategy.
Thus creating a loop where, yeah now the killer can't "stall the game out forever" instead the survivors can, but now its not forever, they just stall it out for a long time until the killer literally can't stop them anymore.
-
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623752#Comment_3623752
3 genning is still a viable strategy.
Any decent killer who does this doesnt need to kick their selected 3 gens 8 times to win this way. The vast majority of the time you will either secure all your kills or the survivors will manage to outplay you, well before you've kicked a gen 8 times.
This only impacts those who relentless defend a gen at the expense of all other objectives, for a prolonged period of time.
That is not actually true, in fact this might make it more viable as survivors to intentionally 3 gen themselves in order to get the killer in this scenario where they can no longer regress gens. And yes i know what you are going to say: "Solo queue, average survivors blah blah" you obviously don't play against the teams i play against and that is fine, but you really should try to understand how the game plays out for people with 5k+ hours.
-
@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623714#Comment_3623714
imagining pain res on 130 second gens actually resonated pain, oof. maybe they could do something like extra kicks remove from total charges a gen requires so killer needs to make a smart trade off.
Right, that is the point, to slow down the early game. After doing these types of changes, they could then do tweaks on perks, maybe pain res needs to be come 25%. Or maybe the tokens now work differently. I.E. You earn tokens, and then spend them by hooking. Any number of possible changes there. The point is not about the perks, it is to fix the core system, then adjust perks accordingly.
-
@Aven_Fallen said:
You have 8 Kicks per Gen, which are a total of 40% progress lost. This is without any further Regression (Survivors need to repair the Gens for 5% as well to stop them regressing) or any Regression due to Perks.
This should usually be enough to progress the game as Killer, unless you just want to guard the 3-Gen.
And, to be fair, even IF the Survivors caused the 3-Gen, at some point, both sides have to progress the game. So even if it is the Survivors fault, they have to try to repair the remaining Gen. And even if it is the Survivors fault, the Killer has to chase a Survivor at this point.
But dont worry, since the Survivors have to repair the Gen now for a few seconds, 3-Gens might not even be that much affected, since you dont need to kick them again if the Survivors were chased away from the Gen fast enough.
Its not 8 kicks, it 8 "regression events" which means that those "8 regression events" are going to fly by. The actual strat for survivors now might be to intentionally 3 gen themselves, and then force the killer into the point where they can't regress gens anymore.
They "fixed" the problem of 3 genning by making 3 genning a survivor tactic instead of a killer one.
-
@jesterkind said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623741#Comment_3623741
Stacking four slowdowns is a detriment at all levels, it is not a requirement.
As for the meta, yeah, people are always gonna run slowdown for as long as slowdown exists, so I don't think it's fair to judge any general change to the game on whether it's achieving the impossible even when it isn't trying to.
Watch a tournament sometime. There is a reason they always run 3-4 slowdown perks.
-
@Peanits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623507#Comment_3623507
I can confirm this is how the regression works, in case anyone's uncertain!
Is anything going to be done about how fast the first few gens go? Part of the problem with 3 genning is in how survivors spawn and how the first chase goes. In my typical games as both sides, the flow of the game is basically dictated by how many gens get done before the first down. If no gens get done, the killer wins, if 3 gens get done, the survivors win, and if 1-2 gens get done the game is relatively balanced.
The reality is at high levels, that during the first chase it is common for the survivors to complete 2-3 gens before the killer even gets their first hook. This naturally creates a "3 gen" in the process due to how the game is fundamentally designed, because survivors spawn opposite killers they tend to work gens on their side of the map naturally creating a 3 gen.
Given that the game is literally DESIGNED in a way that killers are supposed to be stronger later and weaker early game, 3 genning seeming like an intentional mechanic to the game, not some kind of flaw. So i guess my point is again, is anything going to be done about early game basically being non-existent due to how fast those first few gens can go?
-
@jesterkind said:
Interesting changes for sure...
I'll see how the generator stuff shakes out, but on paper, I like it. It (further) disincentivises stacking four slowdowns, incentivises thinking about your regression more, and also maybe kinda-sorta encourages some currently decidedly not-meta picks like Ruin, Oppression, Thrilling Tremors, etc. I'm all for those things, so I'll have to test and see if it has any major flaws.
Billy changes look great, even if Overdrive turns out to be nothing just altering his collision and speeding up his chainsaw by default should help him a ton. Big fan of that.
Onryo... I'll test her, but moving back towards her worse iteration isn't a great idea on paper. These changes look like they should at least preserve the better changes made to her, at least.
Ormond is pretty interesting. I do agree with the changes listed, but they're not what I would've done- addressing that godawful window on the top floor of main and maybe putting a hook or two on the second floor to prevent unhookable-build abuse would've been top priority for me, but cleaning up the front area so it's not as dead should be good too.
Not much I really dislike here! I think the STBFL change is unnecessary and Quick Gambit is still going to be a bad perk, but I wouldn't consider those real detracting factors. Excited to test it!
All it is going to do is change the meta again, but still maintain functionally the same meta.
Right now the main build is corrupt + pop + pain res + flex perk
The new build will just become: corrupt + Grim embrace + deadlock + flex perk (probably something like nowhere to hide). So now you can still kick gens, you get your 5% and you get passive slowdown without having to think about it. So functionally this changes nothing. Also "stacking 4 slowdowns" is basically required at a high level because of how efficient survivors can play, so again its not changing anything. If anything the change to grim embrace makes the meta even better here because its all passive slowdown now.
-
@GentlemanFridge said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623462#Comment_3623462
Doesn't Nowhere to Hide hard counter this exact strategy?
Prerunning counters nowhere to hide.
-
@NerfDHalready said:
wish they could do something like if killers kick a gen (or regress it by any means) 8 times at 1 gen left it exchanges its progression with the furthest completed gen and the newly incomplete gen would be shown to survivors for a certain amount of time. or simply address problematic gen spawns on particular maps because these changes definitely will affect normal gameplay.
- can killers kick gens anyway after all regressions are used, for nwth for example?
- if so will base regression (over time) still apply infinitely?
- will overcharge still have infinite uses?
- will missed skill checks still regress gens infinitely?
if gens can't be kicked after 8 regressions, nwth is unusable. if they can still be kicked, the 3 gen problem won't really be solved because the effortless, unconditional regression is still there (over-time regression and overcharge) while rewarded gen regression perks are destroyed as a whole, especially eruption which is going to use 2 of 8 regressions for 1 proc.
This creates more complicated mechanics, and so will whatever they are cooking up will do. The killer should not have to do a math equation to figure out if they should do a basic game mechanic or not. I shouldn't have to think about how much a gen has regressed at any complicated level to determine whether or not they should kick a gen. I should be able to just see a gen think (maybe i should kick that) if i don't see a survivor rather than having to significantly think about it.
The biggest problem with 3 genning is that gens take 90 seconds, and 3 gens close together is very very easy to defend for a long time. Another problem with the game is that the "early game" basically does not exist. At a decent MMR level, a typical game results in a killer losing 3 gens in the first chase. Thus the "3 gen" naturally just happens because of how the mechanics of that work.
A BETTER solution, that is easier to understand for both sides (and could easily have a HUD element added for it) Would be to even out the curve for how gens are done. Right now we have:
- 1st gen: 90 seconds
- 2nd gen: 90 seconds
- 3rd gen: 90 seconds
- 4th gen: 90 seconds
- 5th gen: 90 seconds
- Total gen time: 450 seconds
The idea here would be to take some gen time from the last couple of gens and put them to the first gens such as this:
- 1st gen: 130 seconds
- 2nd gen: 110 seconds
- 3rd gen: 90 seconds
- 4th gen: 70 seconds
- 5th gen: 50 seconds
- Total gen time: 450 seconds
When a gen gets completed, you remove completed charges from the other gens first before you remove uncompleted ones, this prevents survivors from doing 75% of 5 gens, completing one gen, and then you just have 5 gens pop instantly.
This does a few things:
- It makes the start of the game a bit slower
- It makes the end of the game a bit faster
- 2 survivors on a 50 second gen will complete that gen in about 29 seconds. This is much much more doable in a 3gen scenario than 50+ seconds on a 90 second gen.
- Gen regression perks will be stronger early on when gens have more charges
- Gen regression perks become WEAKER later on because pain res on a gen 130 second gen removes 32.5 seconds of progress, but only 12.5 seconds on a 50 second gen. This also makes 3 genning more difficult.
- Gens are less likely to pop all at once early on, meaning that survivors are more able to strategically decide which generators they should work on, likely preventing more scenarios where they 3 gen themselves.
-
@DrDucky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3618745#Comment_3618745
Yes but how often are you queuing into ayrun in a average pub match? I feel like using the absolute top 10k hour survivors as an example is a poor one.
Sure, and how often are you running into a god nurse as well?
Lets put it this way:
Do you:
1) Balance the game around average level players
2) Balance the game around top level players
-
@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623158#Comment_3623158
The bias is astounding.So let's try and list all the differences before we jump to accusations.
1: The game grinds to a halt without the hatch in a way it doesn't if the killer has a hook close to the gates.
2: BHVR game perspective, each survivor is on their own. Even if you've killed 3 survivors, you haven't beaten the other.
3: Theme - last survivor in a horror movie has much more of a chance of escape than anyone else.
4: Killer perks. Going for an unhook always carries the possibility of a killer with NOED or other end game perks that can snow ball an escape into a 4k. Also certain killers can turn even a hook by the gate into a dangerous situation.
There's no equivalent to hatch play where the survivors somehow manage to revive their teammates.
5: Nothing forces the killer to hook close to the gate.
6: A better description than hatch is what happens when the killer has a survivor in chase after the hatch is closed. At that point the game is finished for the survivor with no chance to escape barring a massive killer mistake. This is the equivalent situation to a survivor being on hook near a 99ed gate, not the hatch being opened.
7: Hatch doesn't count as a full escape.
- The game already grinds to a halt BECAUSE of the hatch. Because the last 2-3 survivors will often hide hoping you to kill the other(s) so that they are the ones who get the hatch. Encouraging the survivors to actively play against each other rather than against the killer.
- Right, and those survivors lost the generator game, so again, why does the last survivor get 3 chances?
- Theme doesn't matter anymore as BHVR continues to "gamify" things between the anti-camp mechanic, basekit bt, and the fact that survivors are the true power role if you watch any SWF team like hens/ayrun and you'll see that they don't actually care about theme.
- Balancing the game around perks is bad
- What does this have to do with anything
- That is not actually true, most of the time the gates are on opposite ends of the map, and unless the survivor has already been spotted it is yet again another 50/50. So not only did you beat them at the game, but you won the 50/50 and now you need to win a second 50/50.
- Sure, but it still doesn't change that it is a terrible mechanic.
-
@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3623088#Comment_3623088
Because that's actually fairer. The killer can still get a 4K with 0 hookstates after 5 gens are done. Without hatch/EGC, if there's a survivor dead at 5 gens, the other three are too.
Killers have an equivalent to the hatch in how the entire game is built. Survivors just get the hatch.
The bias is astounding.
Your statement was "killer should not get a free kill in endgame because they lost the game" my response is "survivor should not get 4 second chances to escape because they also lost the game" You have to beat survivors 3 times in order to kill 4 of them. You have to beat them at the base game. Beat them to the hatch, and then beat them at the gate. Why do they get so many chance yet killers get 0?
-
@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622962#Comment_3622962
I mean you already lost game when multiple survivors are alive at end game.
You failed to make them open gates as well.
And you hooked your last down next to gates.
In this scenario getting kill need to be hard. Why we are punishing survivors for good play and rewarding killer for bad play?
I say the same thing about hatch but people still think hatch needs to exist. If you killed the survivors before they finished the gens, why do you have to close the hatch, and then the survivor STILL gets a chance to go through the gates?
-
@Rxstevo said:
there is no way I should be doing 3 gens 2 unhooks and a 2 minute chase just to get 18k bp. and most of the time when we escape we wont even get a pip sometimes or we will do so much work just to barley get 1 pip. This is the reason I mostly player killer now. As killer you can just casully play the game get like 1 kill and still get 30k bp and a pip. while as survivor your doing all this work for nothing. Playing survivor is so unrewarding. I get more bp when the bonus isnt even on killer. I think dbd needs to add more bp for objectives and make it easier getting pips so that survivor feels more rewarding to play and not feel like a chore
Really all they need to do is a couple things.
1) They should increase the points you get for doing gens solo to be the same you get for doing them coop and probably be increased. I'd say a full gen should give the survivors 3.3k (1/3 of a bar basically)
2) Baseline you should get some amount of bloodpoints for survival per minute you are alive. Maybe every minute you are alive you get like 500, so after a 10 minute game of that + escaping you get maxed out. And 10 minutes and dying still gets you half the points there.
3) The survivor being chased (or camped as per the bar filling up) should get some percentage of objectives and altrusim from other survivors performing those actions. Like say 30%, that way if you get chased for a full 5 gens, you still get half an objective and altruism bar along with a full bar of chase and a full bar for survival (assuming you also escape)
4) Altruism points for everything other than unhooking should double. Make unhooking give 500 points and safe unhook give 1500 points and make the safe unhook qualify if the survivor didn't go into the dying state after 45 seconds instead of 15 seconds (to prevent hook farming)
This make the average gave give survivors around 30k-40k points if they escape, and 20k-30k points if they don't and make it much nicer for survivors without encouraging them to farm their teammates for points.
-
@humanbeing1704 said:
Like not meta in the slightest but you still got a toxic message for using it
My favorite is when i run a full endgame build like:
- Bloodwarden
- No way out
- NOED
- Remember me
And then we don't get to endgame because i kill them all before we do and i get the "lol endgame build noob" or "noed scrub"
To which i point out that i basically played the game with 0 perks and they get even more salty.
-
@Sava18 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3621652#Comment_3621652
Ok, play blight or wesker. Nurse requires almost no effort to get over her little skill hump at the beginning and then it's just free.
Blight is a top of the line killer, nurse is just people wanting to get crossed and turn their brain off while 4king into the average 4 man swf. Pure muscle memory while safe blinking.
Nurse is not the same as swf at all, not even close. SWF varies in skill level and even the good ones can get dominated by any A tier killer or above.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3621768#Comment_3621768
I do agree with your takes somewhat generally but nurse is not designed for this game.
She gives no gameplay to the survivor OR HERSELF unless the map allows for it. If safe blink is viable on a tile it's a free hit every time.
You mention balancing for top mmr like it doesn't take 3 games for a semi-competent video game player to just hit the threshold on nurse and win every game. Before I picked up blight my friend coaxed me into playing nurse and guess what? I lost the first game and then proceeded to win the next 20 something games in a row. The killer isn't hard and the killer doesn't have to think. Her power level isn't excusable, pretty much any A tier killer requires more thinking than her.
The only answer to nurses win rate being so low is a combination of her low pickrate and how many people pick her up to try and stomp every game but end up just being terrible because they just generally aren't good at playing the game. Why aren't there a bunch a nurse mains who stomp every game right now? Because the killer is boring and you could just play blight or wesker. Who would play nurse when those two killers exist? Fun is subjective but limiting the chase options of the opposing side to nearly null for 99.5% of survivors leaves both sides to desire anything.
You almost can't take the stats seriously in this game. I am a stat god in league and know where pretty much every champion should be located based on their pick rate/win rate/ ban rate and design.. In recent years I've picked up several champs who should sit somewhere between a 47.5-48.5% if you want them to be balanced due to their kit and I am not mad about it, I just understand that's correct.
The killer isn't hard, people are just horribly bad and the people who are good at her have far, far more fun and FLUID options. The good players aren't playing her, their playing anyone else.
You gotta remember the average killer player is only getting 2-4ks because they are getting a free health state in a deadzone they likely didn't even know existed at the hook.
But that is my very point. You can't say "balance for the average player" but then think also nurse needs nerfs, those 2 ideas are completely incompatible with one another. If you think you balance for the average player, you are talking about your sub 100-hour andy that bought the game over christmas, might play it for a few weeks and then never play again.
You are even doing it here by assuming something that is not in the data. Trying to rationalize and explain away why nurse has such a low kill rate. And that doesn't matter. You state that you want to balance the game around the average, so you need to look at that reality and face it and stop trying to rationalize it. If you truly believe that, you MUST believe that nurse not only doesn't need nerfs, but that she actually needs massive buffs.
This is why i am trying to convince you that your idea of balancing for the average is not a good one. Because you and i (a nurse main) both know that nurse is not healthy for the game, and needs a complete rework (not just a nerf). But the point still stands, that if that is the case, you MUST also acknowledge what the top tier survivor teams are capable of doing. Look at tournament play. Why do you think tournaments heavily restrict what survivors are able to do, what perks they can bring, what items they can bring? Why do you think they create point systems that aren't just about kills and escapes, creating a different scoring system to determine who wins? Because at that level, survivors will win every single time in a match with 0 restrictions on either side (assuming the killer can't play the only viable killers, nurse and blight)
-
@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622245#Comment_3622245
Sadly, thats not how "average" work.
At MMR 10 (assume 10 is the top), if there are Nine teams have strength of 10, and One team have strength of 12, the killer's strength balance should be ~10.2
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/COIPIDHL6A8A/image.png
If you want a killer character to be the really equal to a team that happens to be only 10% of the other side, you would get 100% win rate against the rest of 90% team. That is not balance. The Devs wants at least 16 out of 40 survivors able to escape, not 2/40.
That's not how that works, because now you are assuming that the best trapper player in the world is going against the average survivors and that is not the case. Those average players are going against average level trappers. Meaning that the win rate still remains the same. I'm saying that when the 2 sides are equally skilled, regardless of their level, that the win rate should be around 50%. Likely with a +/- 5% or so, which is a pretty decent standard to shoot for.
-
@C3Tooth said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3622022#Comment_3622022
When can you finally understand that balance top level means Blight & Nurse would cut down their strength at least 40% to bring them down to 60% kill rate because they have 100% kill rate? While Trapper Myer around ~55% would be buffed by 5% at maximum.
Or are you thinking balance around top level means Trapper Myer should have 1700 win streak?
In what world do you think that nurse and blight have a 100% kill rate? That is ridiculous. Also no, i think the game should be balanced so that the best trapper player in the world can win 50% of the time against a SWF team comprised of hens/ayrun/j etc.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3621768#Comment_3621768
The game should be balanced around top-play. the more concerning part about blight and nurse is the 700 winstreaks and 1500 winstreaks on blight. that at least shows that blight and nurse over perform in matchmaking environment. The only question is whether this is because those character are over-tuned or because typical soloq under performs. I am more likely to lean on latter portion because strong players can escape nurse/blight however it is not crazy to perhaps think that these characters might be a tiny bit too effective in the hands of competent killer player. that is my impression on @MikaelaWantsYourBoon post.
Great, it should be balanced around top play. So when are we going to do something about literally every other killer in the game struggling against top tier survivors, because as it stands only nurse and blight are capable of playing against those teams. And yet looking at the future it looks like BHVR is yet again catering to the "average" solo survivor instead of doing something about the top level balance.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3621362#Comment_3621362
you shouldn't be asking me that question with an opening sentence as following:
As a nurse main she needs a complete and total rework because her power is fundamentally OP.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3621521#Comment_3621521
The vast majority of killer that gravitate towards do not need to play nurse to win the vast majority of matchmaking games. Nurse in terms of regular matchmaking is crutch killer to get free-w's. Some people also say same for blight. I am not sure how i feel about blight being crutch killer in that category. Maybe if you consider running C33 or a running double speed/alchemist ring speed with moon-rushing. maybe.
nurse had many changes over the dbd lifespan. So far none of the changes have yet to turn nurse into unviable killer. Safe to assume that nurse is unlikely to ever be irrelevant.
I'm asking you that because its simple.
First of all, i personally think she does need to be reworked, but the game has a ton of other problems to deal with first. But to answer your question on why i asked you that, let me pose you with another question.
Would it be better for the devs to balance the game around:
1) Top tier players
2) Average players
Based on your post talking about solo queue and "average survivor" and so on. I am assuming that you think the game should be balanced around average players. I personally disagree with this, i think you balance the game around the top level players, because top level players are going to be the best at exposing issues in your game, making it more important to balance the game around them as well as using them to find the flaws in your game faster than you or the "average" player would. There are other nuances there as well but in general that is what i believe.
And the reality is, at the highest levels of play, only nurse and blight are viable and every other killer falls apart to a SWF team. Even nurse often falls apart if she doesn't play perfectly. Here is an example match that is a bit old at this point, but still showcases exactly what i'm talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtENJZ_z0zw&t=1sNow, on to the "average" player. If you think you should balance the game around average players, why does nurse need a nerf/rework? Every single time that BHVR has released data on kill rates, the most recent one being over a year ago at this point:
Keep in mind when looking at this, the devs shoot for a 60% kill rate, you can argue against that if you want, but that is what they balance for and is part of a different discussion.
So anyway, looking at this data, it is clear that when looking at "the average" player, nurse is by far the lowest kill rate killer in the game. And this has been pretty much true since she has existed and almost every single time they release data. I think there have been a handful of times where someone dipped below her, but in general she is always in the bottom 3.
So, again i tell you. If you balance the game around the "average" player, then you MUST also take that to its logical conclusion and ending point. And that logical conclusion leads you down a single path. Nurse not only should not be nerfed, but that she actually needs MASSIVE buffs, because she is so far and away below every other killer in the game.
-
@woundcowboy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3621068#Comment_3621068
Yup that’s exactly what they’re saying. These same people then turn around and say that SWF is fine because good players are rare. The survivor bias in this community is undeniable.
That's what i always say, and my response is simple. If they believe that then why do we need to nerf nurse then? They can never answer that. Because they always say "the average player blah blah" ok. So why nerf nurse then? Every single time they release data, she is literally the lowest kill rate killer in the game. Which shows that, in the hands of average players, she is terrible. So if we balance around average players, where are my nurse buffs? Yet they never want to take that to the obvious logical conclusion and just show their bias.
-
@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3621474#Comment_3621474
It is never too late to remove it.
Most players don't view DBD as a competitive game nor do they want it to be one. The way I see it, we don't have a competitive game. We have a portion of the playerbase treating it as such.
MMR was never introduced to enable a competitive scenario. It was merely a replacement for Ranks and, in my honest opinion, it has failed completely. It isn't a surprise that most feedback regarding MMR was, and still is, negative.
Talk to the devs, not to me. The point stands that this IS a competitive game and MMR exists. So you deal with those implications. If you don't like that, you need to be talking with the devs.
-
@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3621361#Comment_3621361
Because the community's response doesn't seem to have had much of an effect.
Many MMR tests had an overwhelmingly negative feedback. I believe that was a warning that the system shouldn't have been implemented.
Well, it's here though, and obviously here to stay. Thus it is now a "competitive game". If they want to split that off into a ranked queue, that would certainly be the best solution, then they can balance each mode differently. But the point still stands that we currently have a competitive game, like it or not.
-
@roundpitt said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3621391#Comment_3621391
What happens if gen 1 is complete while gen 2 and 3 each have 50% progress?
I think this would incentivize dog piling gens. And certain perks which enable that would become meta. You would see survivors piling a gen while a killer can’t really do anything to stop them on the last gen. The killer may get a few free hits but they are getting that gen done. So your solution would be extremely “gameable”.
Additionally, the easiest way to win as killer under those rules is to prevent the first gen from being completed. So perks like corrupt intervention would almost be required. Ruin would become meta again because its regression at 5 gens would be huge.
I don’t think these are problems that can be solved by tweaking numbers on existing systems.
However, if your goal is to make killers care less about the early game then you’d want to flip those numbers. So that as more gens are completed, the remaining gens take longer. Of course, I’m aware of how bad that would be for the game. That too would have even more problems. So I’ll say again, these are not problems that can be fixed by tweaking numbers.
That's simple, you make the total charges be removed be charges that have already been done first. So for example.
1st gen has 130 charges
2 gens are being worked on right now. One gen is at 120 charges, the other is at 110 charges.
10 second later the first gen pops at 130 charges, the other i at 120 charges. Now it gets knocked down 20 charges because it is the second gen. So instead of removing the charges at the uncompleted end, which would immediately complete the generator, you remove it at the completed end. So now it goes down to 100 charges, but it still needs 10 more charges to get finished. This prevents gens from popping one after the other.
It also encourages survivors to work on 1 or 2 gens at a time instead of splitting up creating more pressure earlier. Additionally it creates a cool effect that gen regression perks are stronger earlier. I.E. Pain res killing 25% of 130 charges is far stronger than it killing 25% of 50 charges. This also makes 3 genning even weaker because all the gen defense perks are naturally weaker later on.
Also, the answer to your "dog piling at the end" i think is not how it would work, but i'm not sure, let me do some math.
Imagine all 4 survivors hop the last gen, that needs 50 charges. In total, these 4 survivors repair at 2.2 charges per second. Meaning that the gen would take ~23 seconds to complete. The hit cooldown on a killer attack is 2.7 seconds. So if all survivors are healthy, and the killer hits these survivors lets think about it.
1 survivor: 1 c/s
2 survivors: 1.7 c/s
3 survivors: 2.1 c/s
4 survivors: 2.2 c/s
Gen at 0 charges:
Killer hits a survivor.
Gen at 5.94 charges.
Killer hits same survivor downing them.
Gen at 11.61 charges
Killer hits another survivor
Gen at 17.28 charges
Killer downs that survivor
Gen at 21.87 charges
Killer hits 3rd survvior
Gen at 26.46 charges
Killer downs 3rd survivor
Gen at 29.16 charges
Killer hits 4th survivor
Gen at 31.86 charges
Killer downs 4th survivor.
Gen would be at about 65% complete in this case. Now lets say they have prove thyself which adds 10% speed per survivor repairing, changing the penalty 15% to 5% per survivor
1 survivor: 1 c/s
2 survivors: 1.9 c/s
3 survivors: 2.7 c/s
4 survivors: 3.4 c/s
Gen at 0 charges:
Killer hits a survivor.
Gen at 9.18 charges.
Killer hits same survivor downing them.
Gen at 16.47 charges
Killer hits another survivor
Gen at 23.76 charges
Killer downs that survivor
Gen at 28.89 charges
Killer hits 3rd survvior
Gen at 34.02 charges
Killer downs 3rd survivor
Gen at 36.72 charges
Killer hits 4th survivor
Gen at 39.42 charges
Killer downs 4th survivor.
So this makes the gen be at ~80%.
In this case dog piling probably isn't a good strategy. Also, because the early game has taken longer, it is more likely that 1 survivor has been removed from the game already.
-
@theblimp said:
Devour hope no longer being a hex perk would be the most op perk
Actually there could be an interesting game mechanic here.
Imagine a world like this:
- Devour hope removed as a hex perk and made basekit without needing a hex
- Remove the exposed effect
- Remove the unhook requirement
- Remove hook states
- Devour hope now has survivors moriable after 8 hooks.
Basically, the killer has a bar they fill up, after 8 hooks that bar is filled up, and survivors can now be killed. Remove the whole "survivors die on 3rd hook state" as a mechanic.
Removes tunneling and camping basically.
-
@Aven_Fallen said:
The systems are bad because they want them to be lenient. Because god forbid if Killers would not get massive value by standing next to the Hook.
I dont really see Basekit-Endurance as a real Anti-Tunneling Tool, it is more a fix for the big flaw that you had to rely on another Survivor having a specific Perk when unhooking you. But against Tunneling, Endurance does nothing, since all Endurance is removed by a single Hit.
I dont have high hopes for the 3-Gen Solution either. It will be very lenient, because Killers should be able to defend a 3-Gen, so I dont expect it to do much. Especially not if the Devs dont rework the Gen Placements, which sometimes spawn really dumb 3-Gens. I had a 3-Gen two days ago in Dead Dawg. Near the Water Tower, the house across the road of the Water Tower and the road itself in front of Check. You could see all Gens clearly when standing in the middle. Stuff like this should not spawn.
The problem is not that the systems are bad (although they are). The problem is the systems they come up with go against their reason for not doing a ton of other things that should be done because it "gameifies" the game.
The anti-tunnel and anti-camp mechanic should have been a single mechanic that was much much simpler than what they have now. Simply teleport the survivor if the killer is nearby the hook for some x seconds like pyramid head does to a hook that is closest to the survivor that is furthest from the killer. Make it pretty generous range too, like 12-16 meters. This mechanic is easy to understand rather than some bar that the other survivors don't know how filled up it is, or if they are in range of the killer so the far isn't filling up, or the killer to know how filled up the bar is, etc.
For tunneling, they simply need to get rid of the basekit BT, and give the survivor 0 collision with the killer, a ton of extra movement speed for 20 seconds and make it so that survivor can't do anything other than get healed. Gives them time to run to the other end of the map and get healed and is not exploitable by the killer. Also lets the killer know that someone who just got unhooked isn't going to hop on a gen immediately, and they are put on a little "time out" buying the killer time and further encouraging them to not tunnel.
For 3 genning, i'm sure they are gonna come up with some complicated mechanic that makes a killer do a math equation to figure out how much they have regressed a gen by in that game or short period of time so that now they have to figure out if they can use pop on that gen or if they should use it on a different gen. When the solution is much simpler. Simply even out the curve of the game. Keep the total gen times the same, but make the first few gens go slower, but the last few gens go faster:
I.E.
Current:
1st gen: 90 seconds
2nd gen: 90 seconds
3rd gen: 90 seconds
4th gen: 90 seconds
5th gen: 90 seconds
Total gen time: 450 seconds
New idea (numbers can easily be tweaked, but general idea remains:
1st gen: 130 seconds
2nd gen: 110 seconds
3rd gen: 90 seconds
4th gen: 70 seconds
5th gen: 50 seconds
Total gen time: 450 seconds
Same total gen time, but now the killer doesn't feel so pressured early because they lose 3 gens in the first chase, and they have a little bit more time early. Then, late game, when a 3 gen is in place, the survivors only have to power through a 50 second gen instead of a 90 second one. Meaning that the 3 gen is much much weaker at that point, because a single survivor pair being left alone for 30 seconds is finishing that gen. Not to mention survivors having toolboxes, prove thyself, or having 3 survivors hop on the last gen while the other gets chased, that gen is going down quick.
In general though, they keep coming up with these super complicated mechanics that both sides have to do math equations to figure out what the state of the game is, when they could be doing much simpler solutions that aren't gameable by either side that actually push the game into the most effective way of plying the game also being the most fun.
-
@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3621068#Comment_3621068
i do not think survivors in average soloq win all the time. survivor don't try hard enough to win every single game. The average strong swf probably wins huge % of the time, like 80% of the time. Could they win 100% of the time? Yes, Hens showcases that you can make a swf strong enough to win 200 games in a row but those are uncommon as in non-existent. Most of the reason why you can win with such high % with survivor is weak killers. BVHR refuses to buff killers in a significant way to go against strong survivor players. most of their killer are balanced around average weak survivor player. on top of that, there is still some soloq vs swf disparities issues. So until BVHR resolves that, they unlikely to buff killers because killer win % being too high. Killer do not need nurse. they have nurse and blight until bvhr re-balances the rest of the game. unfortunately, they seldom change anything so status quo stays.
So why does nurse need a nerf then?
-
@Laurie268 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3620866#Comment_3620866
So what if a single survivor escapes, there’s literally nothing on the line my guy. You’re forgetting that DBD is not a competitive game and the things you’re suggesting would make the game even more dull. RNG is what keeps every match from playing out the same
If its not a competitive game, why does MMR exist?