Reinami
Reinami
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@Devil_hit11 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3620875#Comment_3620875
i don't think you understand that very top mmr that wins all the time is like very small number. it is like 200 survivors players and like 50 killer players. I also would not be surprised if most that is like duo swf, 3 man and 4 man swf. I do not agree on that snowball effect. at worst, killer role might be under-powered as a whole vs strong teams but nothing more.
I think they can nerf nurse by nerfing her blink movement speed so instead of being fast near instant teleporting killer, she would be a slow teleportation killer but I suspect that nurse would be something like current billy where rewards for playing character wouldn't be worth effort in winning with the character. Like I could easily see a nurse where TP is 33% slower to what it currently is where nurse tp's are barely faster then blight's rush.
Another possible nerf that they could do is Spirit type change. Currently, with Nurse's blinks, you do not get info for where nurse blinks. This forces survivor to predict nurse's blink location using mindgames instead of reacting to nurse's blink location. So another possible change is to give nurse a blink indicator after releasing a blink. This would reduce nurse's mindgame potencial and allow survivors to more easily outplay blink.
nurse is possible nerf. it is just bvhr has no interesting in nerfing nurse.
So its ok for these survivors to basically completely win every single game "because its rare"?
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3620866#Comment_3620866
There are various ways to play the game and hiding/stealth is a legitimate way to do so. This forces everyone into a chase, one of many facets of the game, which might not be everyone's strength. You might be one of those players who thinks the only valid part of the game is looping like an F1 driver, but you'd be a minority.
The hatch exists to ensure survivors don't just give up the moment one survivor is eliminated.
If there are multiple gens left to repair, but only 2 survivors remain, and you know you're not going to outrun the killer in your little sudden death gauntlet, then the game is already over, at 2 survivors, so you give up.
If you give up at 2 remaining survivors, then as soon as it's apparent that the 2nd survivor isn't going to last until the final gen is repaired, you may as well give up at 3 survivors remaining. So now tunneling is a surefire way to ensure a 4K.
The hatch is fair, it's 50/50. If you can 3K once you can 3K again, so even if the last survivor gets hatch one game, chances are they won't in the next one. But DbD players want instant gratification, every challenge has to be acheivable in a single match without throwing said match or it's not fair.
At this point with all this sweat and toxicity over 4Ks, I think I'd rather have the hatch always spawn right under the final survivor and guarantee at least one 'escape' (with no mmr gain don't forget), while similarly having the exits block after 3 survivors escape. Guaranteeing no more 0Ks or 4Ks alike, preventing endgame slugging and excessive exitgate teabagging (last one out's dead). SWFs would sign up knowing at least one of them is dying, so being sacrificed is at least somewhat normalised, so there's a little less salt over dying in a freaking murder game. Killer always gets at least one kill, and there's always a 'final girl'.
But the current implementation of the hatch literally does encourage survivors to "just give up and hide"
When the game goes south and there's 2 survivors left and the game is "over" at that point, it is not fun for ANY of the players for people to just hide, and wait for their teammate to make a mistake and die in hopes of getting the hatch. Causing games to just be a hide and seek for 5-10 minutes nobody doing anything interesting or having and fun is super boring and needlessly extends the length of the match.
Also saying the hatch is a 50/50 is true, but the entire mechanic at the end is more than that.
Survivors lost the gen game
Then they lose the hatch game and the killer closes it
Then they also get to go through the gates.
So the killer has to "beat" the last survivor 3 times to land a kill on them, the survivor is being rewarded for losing.
Now, hide and seek is a valid playstyle, but not when there are 2 survivors left and 4 gens left to be done. At that point the game is just over and should end quickly instead of wasting everyone's time.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
She is only killer who is ignoring strong loops, walls, pallets, vaults, everything.
Bodyblocking against her is imposible, that means helping your tunnelled teammate is also imposible.
Very good map mobility, that would be fine if her power was not that busted.
She is just cheating the game with legal way ofcourse. She is really feels like old busted DbD where we had busted infinities, busted survivor items, busted mori offerings. She is from this era. Except her, everything nerfed. She somehow kept her power.
Killers like Billy, Freddy, Slinger was not even close to her level but they all nuked by BHVR but not Nurse obviously. Ofcourse she got some nerfs but no nerf will make her balanced. It's just imposible with her kit.
You are correct. As a nurse main she needs a complete and total rework because her power is fundamentally OP.
The problem though? She is the only killer viable against top teams like Ayrun/Hens etc. Until THAT problem is addressed, you need nurse to exist in her current state, because if she doesn't, you'll create a snowball effect that will kill the game.
Right now, survivors like that pretty much only go against nurse (and maybe a stacked blight). But since most killers are not viable at this level you have this problem. Lets say that every player starts at 1k MMR, and these top players are 2.5k MMR, really bad players are 500 MMR and the average player is at 1500 MMR.
You probably have a sprinkling of people at various MMRs, but at that top 2.5k bracket? There are 0 clowns, 0 legions, 0 nemesis etc. It is all nurse and blight. What happens if you nerf nurse and blight (they are about to do that soon with blight)? Now those killers are not viable at that MMR anymore, so those killers MMR goes down. Well now those 2.5k survivors have nobody to play against, so the game opens up the matchmaking pool more so they get shorter queue times. Then they start going against killers who can't handle those types of teams, so they continue to dominate and INCREASE their MMR, making the matchmaking need to work harder and harder to find them matches.
Then as this goes on, more and more killers start playing against teams like this (many of them former nurse/blight top tier mmr players). This results in other survivors who CAN'T handle that type of play to suddenly see harder matches. You'll start seeing them start to go DOWN in MMR and have harder and harder matches. Then what happens?
Well now those top tier killers are playing against those top tier survivors mostly again, and the cycle continues, slowly pushing the MMR of those survivors UP while the killers MMR gets pushed DOWN. This results in MMR basically being non-existent again and the average survivor can't handle this level of play so they start to get frustrated and start quitting the game.
Then you start seeing a mass exodus of players as MMR is failing, not matching people up properly anymore, top tier survivor teams steamroll every killer they see, forcing those killers to play scummier, so when they go against average players the average players suffer. And the top tier killers start playing against average players, making the average player suffer even more. So every game for the average survivor player is awful and miserable. And slowly but surely the game starts dying.
For the health of the game right now, nurse needs to exist to prevent this from happening. Until they fix survivors at a high level so these top tier survivors don't win almost every match, then we can go about finally fixing the nurse.
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@Sunbreaker7 said:
When the killer slugs the second last survivor to secure the final kill, even when the killer doesn't know where the final survivor is at that time and might be wasting a good chunk of time searching - Do you think this is okay or bad game design since the downed survivor is forced to just lie there knowing the match has already been lost but cannot end his part of the match like when on a hook?
Hatch has always been a terrible design. It incentivizes killers to play this way to get the 4k, and it incentivizes the survivors to "give up" and hide instead of do their objective if they think the game is a loss so that their teammates can die and they can get the hatch. Creating negative incentives on both sides.
And that is when it works incorrectly. When it works correctly, it gives the survivors multiple second and third chances after they lost the game. Think of it this way. For a survivor to escape through the hatch in a typical game they must:
- Have failed to finish the generators.
- Then they have a 50/50 shot of finding the hatch against the killer
- If the killer finds it first, then they get a 50/50 shot of opening the gate, some RNG makes it so the killer can't patrol both gates, and certain killers can't defend both gates.
So basically, after failing their objective, then failing their objective, then failing their objective a THIRD time is the killer given the 4k. Seems a bit silly to me.
A better solution would be, once the last survivor remains, it teleports both sides to a small map similar to the past Halloween event with a pallet or 2 and some windows. Then:
- The killer's movement speed is set to 115
- The survivors movement speed is set to 100
- Bloodlust is disabled
- All perks are disabled (survivor too)
- The killer power is disabled.
Then its a simple survival game. The survivor now has 2 minutes to run the killer and they get to escape, if they don't, the killer gets the 4k. Simple, single second chance, that is skill based and not RNG based that allows both sides to have the chance to express their skill.
Then they can fix the survivors hiding and waiting for the teammates to die problem by giving them crows if they don't work a gen for a while.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3620149#Comment_3620149
Non of them is asymmetric multiplayer game tho? Bad examples. If you look this genre games, most of them does not even have dc penalty but DbD has.
Everytime someone brings up "asymmetrical" nobody can ever explain to me.
What makes an asymmetrical game so special, that suddenly griefing your teammates is totally ok?
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@Emoba said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3620149#Comment_3620149
It would be way too time-consuming for BHVR to manually check if each player is needlessly suiciding too often and there's no reliable way to automatically detect it.
You don't have to manually check it, you base it on reports, after a certain threshold is reached, then you investigate. They already have to do this through video evidence for griefing and already do it.
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@whycanxenom1inpower said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3620130#Comment_3620130
They would never remove that feature considering luck is an actual factor in this game
it's not happening bro besides even if they removed that it's only putting a bandaid on the real problem
you want people to stop trolling/griefing then bhvr needs to do is make ranked/casual mode so people actually have something to gain/losee; that way they will have an actual incentive to try instead of just going next
How does removing the feature and then banning people for griefing not fix the problem?
Look at any other team based multiplayer game:
- Overwatch
- DotA
- LoL
- CS 2
- CoD
- Rainbow Six
Every single one of these games has one thing in common. Leaving the game, or feeding, or griefing your team is a bannable offense if you do it often.
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@whycanxenom1inpower said:
why would it be? people are allowed to try and unhook themselves it's part of the game feature
regulating that would be next to impossible lmao like what
Hence why said "feature" should go away. 4% is not fun for anyone. Survivors use it to leave the match and avoid the DC penatly, and it penalizes killers due to a complete RNG thing out of their, or the survivor's, control.
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@Ayodam said:
Could be that the person had to go. People don’t always quit or give up for nefarious reasons (I.e. to ruin your personal gaming experience). The best solution would be to design a game that doesn’t fall apart for one side or whatever if one person leaves prior to that side reaching an unspecific threshold.
If the person "Has to go" there is a faster and better solution for them. Leave the game. Not only do they now not have to wait where a killer might potentially slug them instead for 4 minutes, but they also at least give their teammates a bot. And if they "have to go" then the DC penalty won't effect them, because by the time they come back, the timer should have already gone away.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
I dont think so.
I mean, it should 100% go back to 5 seconds. Because back then Killers actually respected DS and decided to not tunnel or at least not to pick up the Survivor (which allowed them to either use Unbreakable or be picked up by another Survivor).
But, nowadays the gameplay is different. Killers are well-aware that tunneling one Survivor out is the best way to win the game, because a 3v1 with more than 1 Gen left is usually not winnable for the Survivors.
So I would guess that if DS would go back to 5 seconds, Killers would still tunnel and just eat the longer stun, because the benefit of tunneling is still big. And it is still better for them to eat a 5 second stun and tunnel after both hooks compared to going for a fresh chase after an Unhook.
The real reason killers don't respect DS anymore is because nobody takes it because they think it is bad. Real top tier survivors know that DS is still one of the best perks in the game.
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@DrDucky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3617921#Comment_3617921
Part of the 101 skill of killer is knowing when to ditch a chase. Sometimes the survivor is not in a good area in terms of gen pressure or the setups are simply too strong. You as a killer against any kind of team need to actually look at the situation and make that call, since even against a mediocre survivor with a busted setup, your chases will take like 2 mins which is game loosing. As a very basic and obvious example at the start of a match if you have corrupt, it is better to take a chase around the unblocked gens rather than around the blocked ones.
You are thinking about it in terms of what i like to call "normal" survivors. Ones who take just a LITTLE bit longer to find a gen, or they make poor decisions about which generators to work on, or they are spending a little time doing other things like totems, or healing against sloppy butcher.
I'm talking about high level survivors. The ones like Ayrun, and hens, and the like. When played at the absolute highest level, only 1 killer is viable and that is the nurse.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
I am asking your experience. Which roles you are playing and how they are feeling to you?
For me, unless i play SWF this game feels like i am in hell and i need to survive against all of fiends.
Because MMR exists, no, it is not a party game.
If it was a party game, MMR would not exist and it would just match you with whoever. Do you think games like mario kart/mario party use MMR to match you into games? Or do you think they just drop you in with the first 11/3 other people they find?
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@C3Tooth said:
They started with Saloon, gave it a redundant numbers of BW, and the only shack with BW. Later they added BW in reworked maps.
But then BW is gone, Garden of joy has 1 BW on the 2nd floor that add no game play. Shattered square, Toba, Nostromo have no BW, reworked Red forest also have no BW.
I think they gave up with BW concept, same to Boon. Honestly I feel it has alot potential, it could be something that in killer's control that either breaking or not, both options give both side a pros and cons (something like Midwich that can be blocked or open shortcut for both sides, not just pre-dropped pallets).
Here is a drawing of Skull merchant breaking a BreakableWall.
Yes, because they don't add any interesting mechanics to the game. There are either walls that you MUST break, to prevent a god loop (basically a predropped god pallet), or they are walls that you absolutely do NOT want to break (as is the case for example of most of the walls on the game map).
What breakable walls should have been was a section where survivors can spend time "building" a wall that works inversely to pallet. I.E. the survivor spends 20 seconds building the wall, and it takes the killer maybe 5+ seconds to break the wall. And the walls should have been in places where the killer would HAVE to break the wall to continue chasing. Then when the killer breaks the wall, the wall is gone forever.
This would give survivors another "objective" in a way, forcing them to spend time building a wall, but creating an area of safety that forces the killer to basically drop chase one time.
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@luvcraft said:
I'm over here trying to get the "stun the killer 4 times in the same match" challenge, and every time I mess up badly I hook suicide, because it's faster than waiting for the DC timer. Sucks to be the other survivors.
@luvcraft said:
I'm over here trying to get the "stun the killer 4 times in the same match" challenge, and every time I mess up badly I hook suicide, because it's faster than waiting for the DC timer. Sucks to be the other survivors.
Do you want games where killers play against all bots? Because thats how you get games where killers play against all bots.
Second question. Should killers get a DC penalty in your world? If not, then basically no match will ever get finished with all the players again.
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@DrDucky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615991#Comment_3615991
Since when are your chases taking 99 seconds and you have not abandoned that particular chase?
When you abandon chase what happens? The survivor you stopped chasing hops on a gen, and then you spend time not chasing someone and locating a different survivor to chase, who now does the same thing. You actually waste MORE time by abandoning chase against efficient teams. Against inefficient teams its probably the most OP strat you can employ but in this situation we are talking about efficient teams.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616412#Comment_3616412
But the killer DCed and was, most likely, console. He wouldn't see it. That was a little joke for Jake and Ace.
EDIT: In hindsight, that wasn't the best idea. What I meant it as a joke is often associated with toxicity, so like... very bad call on my part.
Ah well, the killer didn't see it, so no harm was done.
The fact that you even did it regardless shows that you are the exact type of player people complain about in regards to toxicity. At least you recognize that. But if i were you, i would look at the behavior that I do in game and in chat and reflect on that before i complain about other people. Admitting it was a good first step.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616232#Comment_3616232
Uhhhh, what?
You do know I am the Claudette, right?
I didn't cancel the match for everyone by disconnecting.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3616282#Comment_3616282
Yeah, like, I am not the killer there.
Don't know why they think I did something wrong.
You know that in the screenshot you gave you literally said "ez" in chat to antagonize the killer and is usually the start of a toxic spree of people yelling at each other?
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3615992#Comment_3615992
Ok, but you're completely disregarding perks, items, add ons, map, hell even the current situation will have an impact on decision making on both sides. No killer or survivor, regardless of any of the above is going to travel in a perfect straight line. Not to mention your calculations are already nullified the moment a Survivor reaches something even remotely close to a loop since they can hug it tighter than killers.
Math will never show the full picture of what actually goes on in a game, and if you're so adamant about it I'd love for you to give me an example
I am, and i'm saying none of that matters because when every survivor plays this way you will never end up in a "situation" that makes this play bad and will basically guarantee at least a 3 man escape.
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@Shroompy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3614948#Comment_3614948
You cant just say a single pallet buys 15 seconds of time. It could be much higher than that or much lower depeding on so many variables.
Using math never represents what actually goes on in a game. Never.
If the person is going against a nurse, i don't count nurse in any calculations. She isn't even playing dead by daylight and you should never look at nurse for balance decisions that affect anything other than reworking her entirely.
If the person is going against an anti-loop killer. You predrop the pallet (which this person is complaining that their team is doing) and you shift+w to a corner of the map, this is true if it is (Pinhead, Huntress, PH, Deathslinger, Trickster, demo, nemesis) etc.
If the person is NOT going against an anti-loop killer, that killer must now break the pallet, buying you that 15 seconds. Barring you get unlucky and run into like a trapper trap or something. But i wouldn't count trapper in these calculations either as he is effectively entirely RNG based.
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@DrDucky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3614948#Comment_3614948
A gen takes 90 seconds might be why?
Right, so, if the survivor shift+w and uses no pallet, no window and just runs directly to a corner of the map, it takes the killer 54 seconds to hook them. Now factor in "going from pallet to pallet" and you just predrop 2 god pallets, and now the killer has spent 84 seconds. A third, and now they spend 99 seconds. So again. If the person is going "from pallet to pallet" how are you not finishing 3/5 of your objective during that time and then body blocking where relevant?
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@ShowNoMercy said:
No, I don't play killer before you yell "KILLER MAIN COMPLAINING ABOUT A WEAK PERK". I'm tired to see my teammates going from pallet to pallet and when the match goes on there is no pallet left for us to use. They keep wasting it for absolutely nothing and it only kills us at the end and what for? This perk is extremely unhealthy. I hate to say it but I think this perk has got to go. Survivors need to learn the game and not just drop every pallet they see on their screen.
If they are going from "pallet to pallet" then how are all the gens not done? A single pallet break buys 15 seconds of time for the survivor. So if they go from "pallet to pallet" and drop 3 pallets that get broken, thats 45 seconds before they are even hit. How are you not finishing 3 gens by the time they are downed?
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@nora_the_explora said:
Update 7.4.3
Nerfs/Buffs
The DemonDaddy:
- Decreased the efficency of this survivor's toolboxes by 33%
- Increased the base time of generators to 120 seconds (was 90 seconds)
- When missing a skill check the Incapacitated Status Effect will be applied for 30 seconds
- After finishing a generator this survivor will Scream and his aura will be revealed to the killer for 10 seconds
2 things can be true at once. The game heavily favors survivors at a high level, and these changes are awful even though i know you are memeing. Increasing gen times is not the answer. The answer is fixing spawn rates, and evening out the curve of the game. For example, 3 genning is a problem. So instead of doing some complicated mechanic, the simple fix is to even out the game by taking some time from the last gens and put it toward the first gens.
I.E.
1st gen takes: 130 seconds
2nd gen takes: 110 seconds
3rd gen takes: 90 seconds
4th gen takes: 70 seconds
5th gen takes: 50 seconds
So same "90 seconds per gen" for a total of 450 seconds, but the times are slightly split up.
Then i would also setup spawns so that survivors ALWAYS spawn next to each other forcing them to risk being spotted to spread out and rework the spawn offerings. There are other things i'd do for tunneling/camping as well, but this would be a first start toward evening out the curve of the game so that the game isn't decided in the first 60 seconds. Because as it stands right now, the game is basically decided based on whether or not survivors get 3 gens done for that first hook. If they do, then they can win if they don't throw. If they don't, then the killer can camp and tunnel their way to winning pretty easily. This also helps alleviate the 3 gen problem in 2 ways:
1) The last gen is much much faster, if you manage to pair up survivors, that last gen is only going to take the 2 pairs 29 seconds to finish a gen. This is not enough time for a killer to do a solid 3 gen, because just walking to each gen is going to take a solid 5-10 seconds already and the survivors will win that battle of attrition very fast
2) Gen regression perks tend to work on a percentage, so that pain resonance for example working on a 50 second gen, is only taking off 12.5 seconds of progress, instead of 22.5. This is going to make the gen defense perks WEAKER as time goes on, making it more possible to break those 3 gens.
The match should not be "over" in the first 60 seconds for either side in general though.
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@DemonDaddy said:
Yep, thats right, Im starting to consider my effectiveness as an individual survivor to much. Completely isolated from teamwork and based solely on my objective performance, it feels like Im playing with a handicap setting that cant be turned off. And my basis for this has absolutely nothing to do with my death or escape ratio.
75%
What do I mean? Thats how much of the primary objective I complete solo in matches that end in death. Let me reinterate that real quick, 75% for gens with an end result of me on hook.
For clarity, Im not saying nobody else does gens or I only get bad teammates. Im just stating that in matches where teammates are preoccupied and cycling through hooks, I as one indiviual can carry the TEAM OBJECTIVE to 75% before becoming the last victim myself.
I would also like to note that this is not uninterrupted progress. Mixed into this are saves, healing, totems, killers kicking my gens, and multiple chases with some or all ending in a hook. I dont claim to be better then anyone Im paired with, only that I use the tools and warnings to the best of my ability.
4 survivors - 5 gens
1 survivor = 3 gens going on 4
Absent of a complete failure, I'm seeing this as way to much objective control for someone that only considers themself simi-decent as a survivor.
Well thats just been my perspective for the last couple of weeks thats lead me to this opinion. Solo has its shortcomings but I try to rationalize it with the idea that 3 other people can/intend to play just as effectively if not better then myself.
If you have any other factor of success which aligns with this, Id like to hear more.
Do bad teammates validate why one person should be this effective?
If so, does that validate mmr giving you bad teammates to limit success?
Its not about SWF vs solo queue or anything like that.
It is simply "gen efficiency" do the survivors do gens or not. If survivors "just do gens" the killer does not have enough time to win the game unless they are playing nurse, or the survivors throw. The problem with "solo queue" is that many survivors "don't just do gens" they are busy doing tome challenges, or god knows what. I know because when i play survivor the UI tells me my team is doing nothing for a solid 90 seconds while someone suicides on hook and i'm working a gen and nobody else has touched agen, healed. been chased, not even a chest or a totem. I have no idea what they are doing.
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@NerfDHalready said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3614080#Comment_3614080
which one? because it has 4 FOUR F-O-U-R god windows.
four.
That's part of the joke, but yes. The entire building needs to be redesigned. Personally i think the worst offender is the dining room one though. Its unmindgameable and you must entity block it to catch them, outside of like a nurse or maybe a huntress hatcheT if the survivor is slow. Then after that, they are dropped right next to 2 god pallets. So if you want to down them there, you need to entity block it, break a god pallet, entity block it, break a god pallet, entity block it THEN you can land THE FIRST HIT. By then you lost the game.
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@Haddix said:
thoughts on the crazy crazy map rework we got recently?!
Somehow they heard people say: "You want that garden of joy window nerfed? No problem, we went ahead and changed the upstairs window"
When people were talking about the OTHER window.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613479#Comment_3613479
I did not say that.
Personally, i dont care if someone goes for a winstreak or not. The irritating part is that the ballance issue in public DBD is so wild that killer can go for thousend wins in a row while survivor struggle to get to two hundred. Isnt that a little bit to much? Imagine you have a 80% winchance when playing white in chess. That would not be fun at all. I know, not a 1 to 1 translateable example, but you get the idea.
On top of this, the conditions they had on those streaks makes it even more astonishing. 1600 wins on Blight ez pz 4K, while Oracle could reach the 200 with the condition that 1 person was allowed to die. 3 escpaes was enough.
I would be suprised if a strong and tunneling mid/low tier killer like Myers could not reach 1000+ wins in a row with condition like the survivors (3k is good enough)
This is exactly what i'm talking about. Right now, the game is balanced in a way that at the "average" level, black (the killer) wins 80% of the time. And at the highest level white (the survivors) win 80% of the time.
Not really a good time all around.
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@Archol123 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613477#Comment_3613477
Hens Lumpy Dan and Laser do that is true, however that is not the Hardcore streak that was mentioned... The Hardcore survivor challenge is 4 new accounts and play them up to iri 1...
I'm talking about the ones where the play matches and heavily limit themselves I.E. No duplicate perks etc. Not some weird novelty one.
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@xEa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613361#Comment_3613361
I am not sure what you mean with "problem", but if you mean the difficulty, yes it is. Like said times before survivor go on streaks but those streaks are compared to the killer streaks laughable.
So, "its fine when survivors do it" sounds pretty biased to me.
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@AmpersandUnderscore said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613346#Comment_3613346
Your numbers are all over the place. For example, healing yourself with circle took a little over 21 seconds, not 12-15. And that doesn't include the travel time, bless time, or time hunting for a totem.
And that's not the only place your numbers are, let's say, exaggerated.. but for sake of argument, let's run with your math.
In your 'doomsday' scenario, the killer has their first hook just before the survivors finish 3 gens, since one was in chase, and the other three are healthy. The killer has just established pressure, and now the cycle of 1 on hook, 1 going for rescue, and one in chase can continue for the rest of the game.
The survivors also lose at least 2 of the 3 that were on gens to survival objectives like rescuing and chase, cutting the efficiency on gens to, at best, 33%. This actually drops to zero if the killer power contains any slowdown whatsoever, because now the one on gens has to go solve the cube, walk a zombie away, move a tape to a tv, set up a turret, grab an emp, disable a drone, or similar.
Not to mention a killer with movement, teleport, or anti loop can literally ignore one or more of those 'large investments of time' you list. Nurse, blight, spirit, wesker, or even teleport killers aren't taking a ton of time getting into chases, it's nearly instant depending on the scenario. Similar thing with insta downs cutting chase times in half.
And while I still think your numbers are completely off without having a video example or something, you're arguing the most recent circle nerf traded 20 seconds for a second hit, in exchange for minimum 21 seconds of healing, travel, and free voluntarily slowdown to set up. You're making the exact argument that the most recent circle nerf should be reverted to slow down early game for the killer at no actual cost later in the game either (a net gain, actually since resilience doesn't work healthy and survivor spends even more time traveling to the boon). Reverting that nerf is a win-win for the killer in your scenario.
I was talking about multiple things at once. But the match checks out. Here is my "copy pasta" math that i have posted in many many threads in the past with more details:
Some data:
Survivor movement speed: 4.0 m/s
Survivor post hit movement speed duration: 1.8 seconds
Survivor post hit movement speed: 6.0 m/s
Killer movement speed: 4.6 m/s
Killer movement speed while lunging: 6.9 m/s
Killer lunge duration: 0.9 seconds
Killer hitbox extension: 1 meter
Killer movement speed while carrying survivor: 3.68 m/s
Killer Terror Radius: 32 meters
Killer hit cooldown: 2.7 seconds
Killer movement speed during attack cooldown: 0.575 m/s
Killer pick up speed: 3 seconds
Killer hook speed: 1.5 seconds
Generator repair speeds: 90 seconds
Average distance between hooks: 38 meters (~19 meters to a hook from any given position on average)
Average human response time: 273 ms (https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime)
Average map size: 9850 square meters (~99.25x99.25 meters for a square)
So, let's assume killers and survivors all spawn at opposite ends of the map. The survivors spend the first 20 seconds looking for a generator and the killer spends the first 20 seconds running to the opposite end of the map. With a killer having a 32 meter terror radius, and taking into account movement speeds and human reaction time. if we take the human reaction time and 6x it to account for figuring out the direction the killer is coming from and making sure you can run the opposite direction, the survivor will spot the killer in 1638 ms. To make math simpler let's round it up to 2 second. during this time the killer gets 9.2 meters closer. So now the killer is 22.8 meters away. During this time the survivor runs in the exact opposite direction of the killer.
Remember, no powers, no pallets, no windows, just a straight line. In order for the killer to catch up to the distance needed to lunge (killer lunge is 6.9 m/s for 0.9 seconds, survivor is moving 4.0 m/s during that time, so to land the hit, the killer must be 3.61 meters from the survivor at the start of the lunge. Let's round that to 3.5 to account for lag). This means the killer needs to close a gap of 19.3 meters, to hit the survivor The difference in movement speed between them is .6, this means the killer closes the 19.3 meter gap in 32.16 seconds. The killer then lands a hit.
The survivor then runs in a straight line and the killer is unable to move much for 2.7 seconds, only moving 1.5525 meters of distance. During 1.8 of those seconds the survivor is moving at 6 m/s and for 4 m/s for .9 seconds. This means the survivor gets 14.4 meters way. The killer now has to close a gap of 9.3 meters for a lunge. It takes the killer 15.5 seconds to catch up to the survivor and land another hit.
The killer now picks the survivor up taking 5.7 seconds (3 seconds for picking up, and 2.7 seconds for attack cooldown), /and they walk to the nearest hook about 19 meters away. This takes 5.16 seconds, lets say 5. the hooking action takes 1.5 seconds.
The time to find this survivor, hit them once, catch up, hit them again, pick them up walk to a hook and hook them took: 32.16 + 15.5 + 5.7 + 5 + 1.5 = 59.86 seconds. Or, about 60 seconds. This would mean the killer would likely lose 2 gens in the first chase. (just barely reaching the 3rd survivor before it finishes).
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@crogers271 said:
I've always thought that the biggest problem was the number of people who've pulled off killer win streaks, not the streaks themselves. If it was just a player or two then the 'oh yeah, they are the best player', but it is a feat that lots of players have pulled off. Compare that to the survivor streaks and you are looking at some of the absolute best survivors.
The second issue though is the killer's who've pulled it off with major handicaps.
Streaks in competitive events should be extremely rare. Magnus Carlsen streak of wins in chess as some say the best player in history is 42 with draws not ending the streak. Taking a quick look at major competitive sports the highest streaks are usually in the 20s, and that are for some sports with over a hundred years of play. If you are being matched against competition that is even relatively on your level, a winning streak in the hundreds should be impossible.
It is an inherent problem/inevitability with the game design. Each of us, hypothetically, could become as good as a top tier comp killer. To become equivalent to a comp tier survivor we'd have to get as good and then find three other people on the same level.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613361#Comment_3613361
You know the same kinds of teams that otz plays with when he plays with hens and ayrun and they do these "hardcore survivor" challenges? And they go on big win streaks?That's not what the hardcore series was/is. They start fresh survivors, so they are at low MMR and they talk about how much harder the games get later on as MMR improves. Second the goal is not a win streak, but to get to Iri 1 before all of there available survivors die off, wins and losses are irrelevant.
They also failed the most recent attempt.
They are playing on their main accounts, they aren't resetting their MMR.
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@GoofyGooberRock said:
Had a game where I never got hooked and everyone died and the killer refused to pick up because I wasn't near hooks and I had a key
Where again I had to bring up a video and wait until I bled out to finally get to the next game
I understand why the killer had to slug me but I still think there should be a bleed-out option for those that have no other option and just want to get into another game instead of being stuck in a dead game
Do you also suicide on hook when things don't go your way?
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Just shows how strong tunneling is. You will win the game when you turn it into an early 3v1.
Obviously it should not be possible that a Killer can get that many wins in a row.
Is it also a problem when survivors do it? Because hens/aryun/otz are also doing big win streaks and they are even handicapping themselves as survivors to using only certain perks, or no perks, etc.
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@Rudjohns said:
And the game is survivor sided, right?
At the highest level? Yeah it is.
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@xEa said:
Otz just released a new video on some impressive winstreaks on killer. Beside Scotts Bubba speed limiter streak and Fungoose Plague streak, they are relative recent and some still ongoing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5PKg4HPjnE
When i see that a mediocre killer like Wraith is capable of winning over 40 times in a row (1st and only try!) without loosing more then 2 gens or a Blight that wins 1600+ times in a row, or a Nurse winning 500+ times and ongoing without even using addons or perks - this begs the question:
Should this be a thing? And where did the ballance go? Keep in mind, survivors are currently at 38 wins in a row solo and 200 wins in a row as SWF, done by one if not the best team in the world.
Opinions?
Here's a question for you.
Is it a problem with someone does it as a survivor team as well? You know the same kinds of teams that otz plays with when he plays with hens and ayrun and they do these "hardcore survivor" challenges? And they go on big win streaks?
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@Firellius said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3613191#Comment_3613191
That's still a bit of a disconnect though. According to you, survivors are less time efficient. So why do killers feel more pressured?
I'm literally saying the opposite.
If it takes the killer 30 seconds to land a hit, but with things like CoH it only takes the survivor 12-15 seconds to heal that hit, then that is by definition less time efficient for the killer. The self healing changes made it so hit and run became viable again because now if survivors want to self heal, they must do it much slower (such as with self-care) and now medkit is slower, and also the medkit is much more limited than before, so you either make it faster, or you get 1 more heal out of it.
This means that when healing, survivors are likely spending 2 survivors healing for 16 seconds. Which is a total of 32 seconds off the gen for the team (2 survivors healing each other) on top of the time it takes them to find each other (although that can be mitigated with healing near gens and such).
This means that hitting a survivor and leaving them, is now generally a gain of time for the killer if you can do it in 30 seconds or less.
The problem though is 2-fold.
The killer is extremely weak in the early game due to having 4 survivors who have nothing to do but gens, and also due to the many unmindgamable god pallets in the game. But at the same time, people say they don't like 3 genning. The reality is, against a decent survivor team, that first chase and hook will probably cost the killer 2-3 gens. Meaning that survivors already are well on the way to winning and the killer is just barely getting started. Generally its going to take the killer around 20 seconds to cross the map and start a chase, then another 30 seconds to land a hit, then another 20 seconds to land a second hit (and this is assuming the survivor doesn't use pallets and the killer wins the mindgame each time). Then factor in the unmindgamable god pallets that MUST be broken, and the fact that a broken pallet gives a survivor 20 seconds of distance and that gens take 90 seconds....
20 seconds to find and start a chase
30 seconds for the first hit
20 seconds for the second hit
3 second pickup animation
7-10 seconds walking to a hook
1.5 second hook animation
That's 81.5 seconds. And that is assuming it all goes perfectly, the survivor doesn't hide, the chase starts right away, and you win both mindgames for the hits. Now factor in 20 seconds of distance for just predropping a god pallet? And you lost 3 gens there to down that first survivor, and all they had to do with shift + w straight to shack, predrop the pallet, and shift + w to a corner of the map. And then you wonder why nurse and blight are top tier? Because they can end those chases in 15-20 seconds instead of 45-50.
If they did something to even out the curve, perhaps through something like the early trial warmup mentioned by scott jund a while back. Maybe a basekit corrupt that blocks all gens except the ones near the killer at the start, that ends as soon as a chase starts, or a survivor gets injured or the killer interacts with them. Or some other mechanic to slow the game down at the start. Then of course we take some of that new time we just added to the killer side away from the 3-gen, and you'll have a much more evenly spaced out time for the game.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612329#Comment_3612329
That's the point.
Survivor is blessing totem = They are not on gen.
Survivor is running blessed area and healing = They are not on gen.
Same goes for medkits. Survivor is healing = They are not on gen.
All of those free slowdown for killers. Because when survivor is wasting time with those side objectives, killer is chasing someone and some pallets are removing from game which means next chases will be faster.
But now, survivors are not using boon perks and they are doing gens even if they are injured. So gens are flying.
Devs can make gens 100 seconds and they will still fly. We need natural slowdown, another objective for survivors. That's the slowdown will make game healthier.
And nerfing chase perks = survivors are gonna use more gen speed perks = gens are even faster.
They slowed the game down in the sense that they made it take longer to do the gens, but they were more time efficient.
Basically, a killer would have to spend a solid 20-30 seconds landing a hit. But with the crazy medkits, and CoH, they survivors only had to spend maybe 12 seconds to heal themselves. So yes, it slowed the game down in the absolute sense, but efficiency-wise, it wasted more of the killer's time than the survivors time.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612677#Comment_3612677
And it just doesn't work here. I don't think it ever will, actually.
I think it works horribly in DBD due to the balance and RNG factors of the game honestly. At least in CoD and Halo the games were pretty balanced and they weren't dealing with the asymmetrical element.
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@GeneralV said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612469#Comment_3612469
The biggest problem and cause of this all though? Is simply MMR. MMR creates a scenario where every single game you have to sweat hard to win. This is "fine" in the sense of, this makes matches more "fair" but the problem with this, is it eliminates all variety and fun of the game itself and because this game is so horribly balanced, it all falls apart. If you want MMR you must have a balanced game, if you don't have a balanced game, you shouldn't have MMR. Like, sure set it up so brand new players aren't playing with people who have 5k hours. But realistically MMR shouldn't really exist with the game in its current state.
What makes this even worse is that, several times, the feedback regarding MMR was negative.
There were warnings the system would cause problems.
People have been against MMR for a long long time, going as far back as the old CoD and Halo 2 days when TrueSkill came around.
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@Pulsar said:
This.
No insults to anyone in the match, they clearly have different priorities and that's fine.
That being said, when you get teammates that don't do gens and then do things like this, it's extremely demoralizing. You have a Killer that excels at camping and I'm put into an instant-loss scenario through zero fault of my own.
That is exactly why a lot of people are burnt out of DBD. Lack of meaningful agency and feeling like their own skill doesn't matter, be that on Killer or Survivor.
This is the problem with solo queue vs SWF.
Now imagine a killer playing against a SWF squad that is using clock callouts and it feels exactly like this for the killer. The problem is matchmaking in this game is horrible and both sides can do extremely unfun things to the other side that completely make the game miserable to play. And the biggest problem? Is not that those unfun things exist. It is that those unfun things are the most effective way for either side to win. The most boring way to play the game, is also the most effective.
If they instead balanced the game around chases and hooks, instead of kills, made tunneling and camping impossible, and do something for killers to deal with the tools that SWF have you'd have a much more fun game. The ideal "solution" to solo vs SWF is quite simple. Create a ranked queue, that is 4 man SWF only and an unranked queue that is solo and duo only.
Then make balancing the win condition different in each of these modes. Perhaps in the ranked mode, the killer wins if they get a single kill to get a win, or perhaps the survivors move at 95% speed, or some other thing to make chases faster (hopefully not increase gen times). Additionally in the unranked mode, they can make tunneling and camping impossible. Maybe the basekit BT absorbs 2 hits and lasts 30 seconds. Maybe the AFC just teleports them to a different hook like PH.
It doesn't actually matter what changes are made, the point is, they balance the game differently for each queue. And now you can start seeing real change.
The biggest problem and cause of this all though? Is simply MMR. MMR creates a scenario where every single game you have to sweat hard to win. This is "fine" in the sense of, this makes matches more "fair" but the problem with this, is it eliminates all variety and fun of the game itself and because this game is so horribly balanced, it all falls apart. If you want MMR you must have a balanced game, if you don't have a balanced game, you shouldn't have MMR. Like, sure set it up so brand new players aren't playing with people who have 5k hours. But realistically MMR shouldn't really exist with the game in its current state.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3612015#Comment_3612015
No, no. Its not a survivor exploit. Sorry if i expressed myself wrong in that regard.
The term "exploit" is overloaded and people think about it as a bug. I see the term as "exploiting something to its fullest potential". So for example, a survivor "abusing/exploiting killer shack" is not performing a bug, but they are exploiting the power of the structure.
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@Rudjohns said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3611472#Comment_3611472
being in a different floor should not pause the progress
There are many maps with multiple floors like midwich for example, where a survivor can be above you, but it can physically take the killer 20+ seconds to walk all the way o the stairs and walk all the way to the survivor on the hook. By definition there, the killer is not camping.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3610043#Comment_3610043
I don't wanna be rude but your suggestions are terrible bad to me and i am not even SWF player.
Why? Lets have a constructive debate instead of: "your idea bad" and not elaborating.
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@crogers271 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/400234/i-disagree-with-devs-about-solo-q
information is not the crux of the problem, but rather that friends work together by nature and solo survivors don't (as much)I think the first part is correct, the second part is wrong / poorly stated. Things like planning their playstyle are critical (which you discuss), but I wouldn't say BHVR's answer discounts that.
Survivors do have the ability to chat pre-game, its just almost never used. And the rare times I've seen someone try and organize the survivors it has actually worked pretty well.
And seriously HUD need 2 more icons:Agree on the first, disagree on the second (though I'd only show the anti-facecamp when it hits certain threshholds). If you see someone off gens and not in chase when someone else is hooked, that person should be going for the save. Also don't know how you could get the HUD to detect what someone is doing, so we're talking about adding an emote/ping system for what people are doing.
I imagine one day they'll get there, but I prefer DBD on the survivor side with uncertainty.
If I was to add something to the HUD, I think Reassurance should also be shown.
Information is literally THE problem, and the devs are wrong. This game is heavily balanced around lack of information, for both sides as well. Take a look at the survivor perks some time, there are 131 survivor perks currently.
These perks are completely information based (all their power is information), in that they give information to the survivor/team:
- Aftercare
- Alert
- Better Together
- Bond
- Clairvoyance
- Counterforce
- Dark Sense
- Deja Vu
- Detective's Hunch
- Empathy
- Fogwise
- Inner Focus
- Kindred
- Left Behind
- Object of Obsession
- Open Handed
- Premonition
- Rookie Spirit
- Scene Partner
- Small Game
- Spine Chill
- Troubleshooter
- Visionary
- Windows of Opportunity
- Wire tap
These perks are at least partially based on giving you or your team information, in that, some component gives your team information:
- Babysitter
- Blast Mine
- Blood Pact
- Boon: Circle of Healing
- Boon: Dark Theory
- Boon: Exponential
- Boon: Shadow Step
- Buckle Up
- Fixated
- Lucky Star
- No One Left Behind
- Power Struggle
- Repressed Alliance
- Saboteur
- Wake Up
And look at all the perks that around suppressing information from the killer:
- Bite the Bullet
- Boil Over
- Calm Spirit
- Corrective Action
- Cut loose
- Dance with me
- Deception
- Distortion
- Diversion
- Iron Will
- Light Footed
- Lightweight
- Low Profile
- Lucky break
- Off the Record
- Parental Guidance
- Poised
- Quick and Quiet
- Red Herring
- Self-Preservation
- Sole Survivor
- Teamwork: Collective Stealth
- Technician
- Tenacity
So that means that we have:
- 25 perks only give information (15.5%)
- 15 perks partially give information (10%)
- 24 perks suppress information (15%)
- 40 perks at least partially are about information (25%)
- 64 perks are about information in some way (40%)
This means that SWF by definition, get around 25 perks for free. And many of the things that SWF can do, are not actually perk related. For example, someone can call out where trapper traps are, or when the killer changes direction to chase someone, or knowing relatively where the killer is.
This game is balanced around lack of information for both sides. And SWF breaks that significantly.
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@radiantHero23 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3609440#Comment_3609440
I just saw his video.
I think at some point enough is enough. The devs are to blame for some weird decisions sometime, but there are problems, where I wholeheartedly understand their responses. There is no simple solution to survivors giving up. There is no fast wonder to make soloq more in line with swf.
But if we look at how the game has developed over the years and how much better it got, I do have to say:
Some people are overreacting.
There is a very simple solution to survivors giving up. Remove the 4% mechanic, because it is dumb, remove the struggle mechanic, because it is dumb, and actively start banning people for afking, trolling, griefing, or "giving up". Every other team based multiplayer game is able to do this, why can't dbd?
There is a very simple solution to SWF vs Solo, many of them in fact.
- Remove SWF.
- Make them separate queues (ranked vs unranked) and balance the modes differently (I.E. shorter gens vs solo, and longer gens vs SWF, or maybe SWF run at 95% movement speed, or any number of possible changes).
- Show killers who the SWF are so they can opt in/out of them before the game starts.
- Show MMR to everyone of everyone in the lobby, so both sides know if they need to sweat or not (i might have a match of 1600s and know i can chill a bit, vs a match of 2.2ks where i know i need to bring strong stuff)
- Give SWF a penalty for each member of the SWF (reverse prove thyself maybe?)
Several of these things are just numbers tweaks that could easily be worked out and tuned over time. But the simplest solution is to create separate queues.
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@not_Queef said:
Honestly, Otz has been unwatchable recently.
On a scale of 0 to Tru3Ta1ent, I'd say he's approaching an 8 on the misery guts meter.
The responses to the Q&A weren't nearly as bad as he's making out.
MANY of the things he has complained about in the past have in fact been changed not that long after. He makes it sound like the devs never listen, which is simply not true.
Also worth bearing in mind that a lot of his ideas aren't really that great, which might be why they aren't implemented.
The community really started turning on otz when he started playing games with hens and ayrun. Otz is a reasonable and smart person and now that he has seen what comp players are like and what they can do, he is starting to realize that tru3ta1ent is right about a lot of things and he has been starting to point some of these things out in a less whiny way.
And the minute a streamer or content creator starts being reasonable in DBD, for whatever reason they become super hated. The other big one Scott Jund has avoided it because he basically sees DBD as a party game, so he KNOWS that these things are true, but he doesn't care because its a "party game". I think it is a wrong take, but its why he has avoided the toxic community.
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@KidDope25 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3609366#Comment_3609366
Everyone is sweating extra hard for some reason and I have no idea why. It’s like what’s the point? And I say this as someone who has waaaay too many hours and plays both sides
MMR will do that. It creates a dynamic where, you have to sweat because you think your opponent might. And the game is so snowbally that if you don't sweat from the start, you will lose against sweat. The result is that everyone sweats all the time.
If they removed MMR completely, you'd see much more chill matches more often.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3609182#Comment_3609182
Yeah but it’s already good as is with Enduring and doesn’t need to be stronger with it. But without it, it’s nearly useless. Perks shouldn’t HAVE to be combined to be useful, unless it’s something like Undying where that’s the whole point.
But that doesn't mean they have to make the combo not work. If anything the combo should be stronger, because you are using 2 perk slots to get the effect. Half your build now is going into this thing.
This is partly why the meta is so stale for both sides, most combos are bad, so people go with the perks that are at least a little useful most of the time.
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@sizzlingmario4 said:
The blind duration is too short for it to do much. Thing is, if we just increase the blind duration then it'd be too good with Enduring.
To get around this, it should be changed to be based on a percentage of the killer's stun/blind duration (100% or maybe slightly more). This lets it be buffed without running into that problem.
Yeah, its really terrible when perks combo together to be useful.... What a shame we can't have a perk combo with enduring....
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3607824#Comment_3607824
People said same thing for Nic Cage and Alien chapters too: Hey if you don't wanna buy bundle, just buy in the game store.
But question is that: What if i don't wanna use in game store? Buying chapter from platform is giving you option for family share. And i love to have them on my Steam library. And removing single chapters and forcing people to buy packs is just bad decision.
If you disagree, that's fine. But this does not make this change good for me. Thankfully i am already have all chapters.
The family share thing has already been fixed and dlc is no longer shareable. So not really relevant anymore.
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@Venusa said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3606987#Comment_3606987
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3606994#Comment_3606994
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3607026#Comment_3607026
I don't know why everyone is talking about Twins's killrate on NL when the topic is clearly Top perks which is way easier to predict. They're 2 very different things and this discussion isn't even about if NL is reliable or not because when it comes to top perks it's proven to be almost completely accurate. I literally posted screenshots of NL's accuracy as proof when it comes to top perks but @Reinami just ignored or refused to see it because it doesn't help their narrative. Nobody even claimed killrates or Killer pickrates are absolutely correct on NL. I don't understand why @Reinami created that narrative, ran with it and muddied the discussion with unrelated commentary. Thanks.
I'm just pointing out that the data collection method is flawed and is giving you a biased sample and should not be trusted as a reliable source of information.
Its certainly interesting to look at, and might indicate some things, but to take it as gospel would be incorrect.