RakimSockem
RakimSockem
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More ways to emote as a survivor. Sometimes pointing/beckoning isn't enough or doesn't properly express what I want to say XD
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Don't have time to watch the video but is it even worth making a top 5 of something when there's only like.... 5 or 6 of them?
Lithe, BL, Dead Hard, Head On, Adrenaline...... am I forgetting anything? XD
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To go along with Spine Chill and complete that "Never Get Hooked" challenge or whatever it's called
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lol there is literally no map where Huntress will beat a Nurse to the other side. Not to mention even if it was a TIE, the nurse still has the advantage of going through walls and obstacles that any other killer has to go around
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People trying to get challenges done. Like the one where you can't get hooked at all.
Almost everyone I've seen DC in the early game in the past day or two has been running Spine Chill and probably going for that challenge.
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@TheCrookedMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/902944#Comment_902944
70% is a 2k on average which is a depip for red ranks
Pretty sure 70% is closer to a 3k than 2.
But also that says something is wrong with the ranking system, not gens.
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@FriendlyGuy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/903318#Comment_903318
Last person got a key. You found the hatch first and closed it. What now?
No free escape, you're right, the person needs to walk to the hatch and press M1.
I'm such a fool kappa.
Run Whispers. Find them before they find the hatch.
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What Fibijean said ^
This nonsense about a key being a free escape needs to stop. it's simply objectively false
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I only go for adepts after rank reset when I'm around like rank 12 or 13, and i usually wait a week for the really good survivors to rank back up where they belong (I play survivor more than killer so my killer rank is usually pretty low to begin with).
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@Desolate_Sands said:
I'd say the biggest difference I see between purple rank and red rank survivor is the perks. Red rank survivors are always loaded to the brim with second chance perks, which carry them of course.
It's very rarely I run across the looping gods who actually know what they are doing.
I am a red rank survivor and I run Lithe, Inner Strength, Plunderers, and We'll Make It at rank 2. I'd be careful about your use of "always" when generalizing a group. And when I do switch it up, I switch out Lithe for Borrowed Time because I care about my teammates surviving more than I care about myself
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D
R
A
M
A
T
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C
Keys don't come into play into a match until late in the match when you are either dominating the survivors and they're all basically dead OR if you're getting destroyed and losing anyway (at which point it doesn't matter that they escape through the hatch because you were losing anyway).
All this drama and theatrics over keys is ridiculous. You know what takes away more fun for multiple players and is much easier to use? Moris.
In a worst case scenario: which can be used within the first 60 seconds or less of a game: A mori or a key?
The answer to that question is the thing you should complain about before worrying about the other.
For the record, I don't care about Moris, but I'm tired of seeing people complain so much about keys but they see nothing wrong with Moris which are WAY more powerful
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#JusticeForNoMither
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@DocFabron said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/896262#Comment_896262
Why would it matter though? I mean, if the killer can insta down you without his power, what difference does it make if he uses his one shot to down you?
It's not about getting one shot. It's about giving a useless perk a use. It would only counter the power for the character who is running No Mither. It's the same way Calm Spirit hard counters the Doc power but without the huge downside No Mither has XD
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@DocFabron said:
A perk shouldn’t counter an entire power.
lol I think in the case of No Mither and dying in one hit, an exception would be okay XD
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Bunch of negative Nancy's in here. jeez
This game honestly takes anywhere between 300-500 hours to get TRULY good at it. Maybe a little more if you play both sides but killer is definitely the easier start. Potato killers beat potato survivors 9/10 times.
You just have to keep at it, learn the maps, learn the mindgames, learn your powers, and hope more new players join the game because I think most of the people who play are above rank 15 and rank reset doesn't allow them to go back under that
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As a Lithe main who has only used Balanced Landing on Nea to get her adept achievement (or is it Meg?), I don't really care about it getting nerfed. Come join the Lithe crew
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lol this is not even remotely the same. This is almost like making a thread say that keys are comparable to moris....*scrolls through forums* oh..... people believe that too....
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Trying to find the correlation between the Spirit nerf and you getting looped as Ghostface...
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Vaulting a window and being teleported back to the window I tried to vault through, but also my Lithe got used somehow ....
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@NoShinyPony said:
It's sad to see how some people think bm'ing is something you do just in good fun.
Most of the time when I get a pallet stun on a killer that tries to mindgame me (walking backwards to hide stain, pig dash, Wraith windstorm, spirit phasing especially) I point and shake my head and say something like "No. You thought."
I don't see it as bm'ing and if anything it's a waste of my own time so I see no reason why it shouldn't be okay.
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Please stop wasting the Devs time with stupid reports for t-bagging. Just go hit them and make them leave. This is why the devs can't get to the real reports of things that actually matter.
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As for the OP, definitely report their asses. It's ridiculous that they would even do that.
I ran into a killer the other day with my friends who called us the N word (I was the only Black person in our group) and the same "f-word" they called you and HE WON. We were all like, bro why are you salty when you won.
tl;dr people are ######### and some need to be reported and hopefully banned.
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@shalo said:
Remember this next time you're tempted to give someone the hatch.
"Someone else did me wrong so I'm going to take it out on the next person who has nothing to do with them."
That's sound logic. I hope you don't apply that faulty logic to breakups and relationships...
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Flashback to that one match I had where a Wraith trapped me in a corner with 5 gens left and didn't move at all until all the gens were done. Luckily my team of randoms figured out and did all the totems so NOED didn't pop up but wow was that ridiculous.
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At first I thought it was to prevent last second character switches but it doesn't do that. You can still do EVERYTHING including leave the lobby, EXCEPT ready up. What's the purpose
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@Carlosylu said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/107977/unviable-killers
XBOX player here. I'm sorry, but no, even the Devs have said you shouldn't take the stats to make statements.
If they show me the kill rates per killer on red ranks for people who don't main those killers per platform (AKA few hours of gameplay with those kilers) THEN I'll say "ok" to your post argument, I'm afraid to tell you most red rank killers use their mains all the time and change killer every now and then for a challenge or for fun. So, I'm pretty sure the stats show an average where the most of the players who ever plays those killers at red ranks either mains them or know how to properly use them vs the small population who uses them cause they have to.
I can get a 4k with my mains in red ranks all the time (Trapper, Freddy, GF), but if you dare make me play as Nurse, The Pig or Myers I'm gonna get a 0-1k average rank. I believe I'm one of the people helping to get GF stats up for example.
Another thing is, if they count a DC as a kill, THAT is helping the stats per killer go up.
I'M NOT SAYING YOU'RE WRONG, I'm saying we need more info to write those arguments as statements.
So I'm confused about your comment because you just said that you can consistently 4k with your main as can most killers. What argument are you trying to prove by saying that?
Also Mandy stated in another thread that DC's do NOT count as kills so you should probably fact check first before making a claim like that
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@Blueberry said:
"So with the release of the most recent stats (I know, i know. Taken with a grain of salt), can we stop all the crap about there only being 3 viable killers in the game?"
You literally just contradicted your entire post. I know these stats aren't completely valid but now I'm going to make a conclusion based on them being valid.
"And while the stats don't show everything that goes into a match (items, add ons, moris, dumb decision making), it DOES show that all killers CAN perform well at the high levels."
No, it does not. As you have even said yourself ad nauseum, there a many, many factors not being taken into account for these stats that skew them heavily.
The devs have stated repeatedly, do not use these stats for drawing conclusions as they are heavily flawed, exactly as you are doing now, along with the other 100 posts made on the forums exactly like yours.
What conclusion did I come to? Where in my paragraph did I state anything as definitive or conclusive?
Literally my paragraph could be summarized to say "People need to stop complaining about only 3 killers being viable. Kill rates are high across the board. People need to improve because there are others out there doing just fine with all killers."
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@FriendlyGuy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/873811#Comment_873811
So you are saying, that you know what the data would show so you don't need to see it? Ok then.
you're reading too far into what I actually said. What I'm saying is it would be cool and all to release those stats, but I'm willing to bet there isn't a huge difference in survival rates between SWF and non SWF teams. There will be a difference, but it won't be a huge one.
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@Yamaoka said:
I thought by "viable killer" people mean as much as:
"is able to 4k with up to 12 hooks regardless of how good the survivors play IF the killer in question is played to their full potential"
Obviously you can do well as any killer at any rank.
Actually I even had a perfect "12 hook game" as Bubba against a full 4-(wo)man red rank SWF team with items yesterday completely "without camping/tunneling/slugging/without hooking the same survivor twice in a row" at "Hawkins" BUT:
- it was an extremely close game (3 hooking each survivor without going for the same survivor twice in a row resulted in ALL OF THEM being alive at 1 remaining generator and a game that was longer than my console can even record).
- AND all of them made crazy mistakes in nearly EACH of their chases.
- AND they were slow on the gens.
If it hadn't been for all the mistakes they made during the chases and if they had been quicker on the gens I would have probably gotten 0-kills despite playing Bubba at full potential and finding + downing everyone fairly quickly.
And that's where the term "viability" comes into play in my book. I need to play Bubba perfectly AND the survivors have to make horrible mistakes in order to make a "12 hook / 4k" even possible against halfways experienced survivors.
Therefore my favourite killer isn't actually "viable" since MY success is always the result of survivor mistakes rather than my own skill.
You can tell me if I'm just seeing things wrong but that's how it seems to me.
The way I see it, if both the survivors AND the killer are playing at their best, the match should end in a 2-3k.
In the scenario you described, the survivors mistakes is what earned you the 4k. I didn't watch the match obviously so I can't point out any mistakes you may have made during the match (if you made any. we're all human so it happens).
I wish all games were as close as you described that one, with maybe one person being dead when the survivors are on the last gen. Landslide victories on either side shouldn't happen very often and in my opinion, it should come down to half the survivors dying last minute and the other half barely escaping (being on death hook)
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@TunnelVision said:
Pretty sure every other topic regarding tomb 3 explains this. Not sure why yet another thread was needed.
Basically this. But also no one is complaining that the challenges aren't doable. People are complaining that the challenges are boring and promote toxic or boring gameplay (camping basement, tunneling obsession, etc)
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@BenZ0 said:
Could be or could be not, we have no proof for that ^^ Whenever I see a legion as killer, this happens:
you posted a picture that shows a bad killer match against a team that was mostly above the killer's level. I could also provide screenshots of trapper matches where I got 4ks but that wouldn't prove anything. We've already discussed that for the average to be at a 2k, there would have to be some matches with 4ks and other matches with 0k. If no matches ended with 0k, then the average would be much higher
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@KuromiStarwind said:
I mean, it's kind of funny that people use these raw statistics for their arguments.
I can just as easily tell you that Nurse needs to be buffed because of her pickrate and killrate. She 100% does need a buff due to it. She simply has the lowest killrate.
Yet, people will tell me that the Nurse stats are skewed for this reason, or that reason. But guess what? The same argument doesn't work when I talk about similar variables for the other killers. It's funny how that works.
Pick rate and viability are not correlated, but nice try I guess? I main Trapper, Wraith, an Myers (sometimes Huntress) because they're fun to play imo. Has nothing to do with viability, I just like those characters (and apparently a lot of people have been picking Trapper but I suspect that has to do with the Tomes)
Either way, I made no comments anywhere in this thread suggesting anything should be buffed or nerfed so idk where you're coming from with your comment
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TO BE CLEAR, I'm not arguing that killers are OP or should be nerfed and in fact I think some killers could use some buffs.
The only thing I'm saying is, the data show red ranked killers are able to play ALL the killers at high level and perform well in the current state of the game. And with the kill rates in the 60% and above range, it means your matches as killer will more often end with 3ks and 4ks than with 0k or 1k. That's all I'm saying. They're all usable. This is coming from someone who mains Trappers, Michael, and Wraith when I play killer.
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@BenZ0 said:
Well I guess I discombobulated myself and my brain xD Its 25% then your right, but I guess you got my point, it doesnt mean that you will always 2k in every game. Thats my point
Right of course. That's how averages work. Some will be below average, others above. And the average would be 50% if there was a perfect balance of Above and below. The fact that most killers are 60% or above however does show that more matches lean towards 4k than 0k though.
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@FriendlyGuy said:
"Viability" means, that the killer is able to win against every tier of survivors, if played good enough. The statistics show nothing about killers versus swf, so that's no proof for nothing.
SWF is included in the data because it's all matches.
So you want an entire different stat for SWF matches vs non SWF matches? And then from there, do you also want it broken down into a separate chart for 2SWF with 2 solo, 2 SWF with 2SWF, 3 SWF with solo, and 4 SWF? That's just a waste of time and ridiculous to even consider doing. Doesn't make too much of a difference tbh. SWF groups are more altruistic and make dumber choices most of the time (I know because I play in 4 man squads often and my friends do dumb things to make sure I get out, and I do the same to make sure they escape)
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@BenZ0 said:
Agree but you shouldnt take 100% of your opinion only out of the stats, 50% killrate doesnt mean EVERY game 2 kills, that can also mean 4 games 0ks and 1 game 4k... and that 1 game 4k can mean mostly a luckily bad survivor team as killer. When I play legion against good survivors, I cant do anything, not because I am bad or dont know how to mindgame, legion has no ability to shorten a chase so I JUST relie on the mistakes of survivors until I catch them.
Mostly I get only 1k and IF i am lucky and get bad survivors I will get obviously 4ks. So my point is, only because you see the stats of the killers doesnt say or mean that ALL killers are completly fine and JuST LeARn hOW tO PlAy.
wait, how does 4 games with 0k and 1 game with a 4k balance out to 50%? I'm confused on your math there
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The only thing that needs changing is the pip system itself. That will fix everything you're complaining about.
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Yeah, I just saw that challenge that said to use Spine Chill and escape without being hooked once.....
Really??? So once everyone gets toward the end of tome 3, you're gonna have a bunch of matches with survivors doing nothing waiting for everyone else to die so they can have hatch (and will probably bring a key to assure they escape if they don't find hatch first). I didn't read the rest thoroughly but it was a LOT of basement, NOED, campy bs challenges.
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Gotta admit, you had me in the first half
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@LordGlint said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/846411#Comment_846411
Id just be happy if certain killers get adjusted to not be so addon reliant. The difference between a Bubba or a Doc running addons versus not running addons is pretty significant. How much of a power does doc even have when not using addons?
I run doc without add ons all the time and he works just fine.
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@MrPenguin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/838943#Comment_838943
You might feel anxious, others, including myself, just feel like "well guess its time to flip the coin". It is unfair, you don't get sound, grass, scratchmarks, or get a massive speed boost on the survivor side. It is, by definition, unfair. The problem is it's too unfair. She doesn't strike fear, she strikes frustration with her gamble like play style you need to take as a survivor, that's weighed heavily against you. Standing still is not a guaranteed hit, don't know who said that. But everything she does put together will net you a hit most of the time much faster than other killers.
She is not balanced by her movement speed. 5% speed loss is not enough to make up for her multitude of strengths. You're acting like her power doesn't exist, which is a disingenuous argument. Those chases are not going to last nearly as long as a chase with Clown or Wraith. They are over much, much faster, otherwise she wouldn't be "over-preforming". She's strong everywhere. In the open, at loops, at pallets, at windows, at the shack, on hook, everywhere. So yeah she's strong where other killers are weak, but she's too strong in her current state and these nerfs are not doing much to address the actual issues, so she will probably be nerfed again as she will still probably be over-preforming. It's something, but it's not enough.
As a survivor main who actually enjoys playing against Spirit, these nerfs are fine and she doesn't need to be nerfed anymore. We don't need her to be a weak killer.
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@CaptainCastle said:
I think its more that we've had 3 killers "changed" in the last year, and 1 rework that took years.
They're hauling ass to tone down the top killers and then doing ######### all for low tier buds.
Even further they seem to be tuning them to be easier to play against at the expense of their diversity.
If we're gonna complain about nerfs over the last year, I can open up a can of "survivors have received two-three times more nerfs in the past year than killers".
But that's a different argument for a different day XD
I do think a few killers could use some buffs, but they're all playable and I have fun (and get 3ks and 4ks) playing with the killers people consider trash (Trapper, Wraith, Bubba)
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@MrPenguin said:
People will cry over any nerf, it doesn't really matter how small or big it is. They could nerf 1 thing by 10% and people will declare the thing dead. While these changes were needed, they still haven't fixed the core problem of spirit standing still and survivors not knowing if she's phasing or not, and where is she, until it's too late. It's slightly better at windows as now you will know if she's vaulting, but not if she's phasing.
She needs to be changed more if they want to fix her issues imo, but we will see how these changes pan out.
Agreed about people crying over everything but I disagree about knowing whether she's phasing or not when she stands still. That's part of the fun of the character as her whole gimmick is mindgames. If you remove that from her, she'll be boring to play against. I don't think there should be a clue besides the wind rushing sound to tell you when she's phasing
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/825164#Comment_825164
sigh
here, i'll copy paste it again for you, this time in one post:
"for the prep time: how am i, as a killer, supposed to prepare for a key again? the only thing i can do is camp / tunnel the key guy and then patrol the item underneath the hook in order to deny the other survivors the ability to pick it up. this comes at the expense of losing map pressure, which still guts your gameplay. all of that because of a single key, mind you. i also literally said that, unless you specifically look for them in the lobby you wont see them, as survivors love to hide them behind their body if they hold one and the item is very tiny - i also mentioned last second switches (= no prep time at all)"
"moris on the other hand appear in the offering screen, have a loud soundeffect and are clearly visible to everyone in the trial - and even IF someone happens to miss them, heck they can always press ESC in the trial to show the offerings again. they wont be able to take preparations before they enter the trial, though they have lots of time to do that during the loadingscreen and the trial itself. there are 3, not too hard ways how moris can be avoided: 1) be good at looping (this takes no special preparation), 2) genrush (very common when a mori pops up) and 3) stealth."
saying that "last second switches dont count, since they are rather rare" is also not a valid argument, just so you know.
also, this one is important:
"you can play around moris, yet a killer, as i have explained in my previous comment, can not play around the key. the hatch is something that will pop up sooner or later, all the survivor with the key needs to do would be hiding until that happens."
"keys on the other hand can be taken in by one out of the four survivors and still change the entire flow of the game. it doesnt really matter what you do as a killer, if you kill survivors the hatch will spawn and someone with the key will just jump in (even if you kill the key dude, they usually just swarm the hook then to get the key) and allow themselves and possibly even more survivors to leave early. if you however dont kill them, gens will be getting done and they have the exits available. its literally a lose - lose situation."
this pretty much sums up my point very well: the killer has to work in oder to get the mori to work. a survivor can literally hide in lockers all game until their team died, do nothing themselves and still get a free escape for nothing. or they can focus on gens and then escape with other survivors for free aswell.
and now, the important part i talked about before, the part i feel like you completely missed, the part why i told you to read the comment again:
"keys are only really broken on SWF tho. especially if one brings a rainbowmap, they are coordinated on gens and can coordinate their hatch escape, so they get the maximum amount of escapees from it."
THIS is important, and so is this part of my fix suggestion:
"only allow the key user to escape"
these two sum up my main problems with keys perfectly!
i dont freakin care if one has a key and escapes with it, i can deal with that. what i cant deal with is when ONE brings a key and then allows MORE THAN ONE to escape with it.
I'll go paragraph by paragraph so that you feel all your points have been addressed (although I already addressed them.
"Prep time. How are you supposed to prep for a key". Step 1: Franklins. Step 2: Be observant during the match in case anyone else picks up the key. Step 3: Kill the survivors before they finish the required amount of gens. Very rarely does someone else pick up a key that someone else dropped unless it's a SWF group.
"Moris on the other hand appear...." As I stated previously, this by default means a killer has more prep time for a key (yes equipping Franklins counts as prep time) if they want to play around it. The survivor just has to adapt once they figure out there's a mori in play. As far as your counters, hiding is not counterplay to a mori because it doesn't progress the game. Hiding just lessens the chance that you're the one to get mori'd fist. "Be good at looping" is countered by my argument "be good at killing" and you won't have to worry about the key being used. Gen rush is also covered under that because if you're good at killing, they can't gen rush.
Saying last second switches are... I know. It wasn't meant to be an argument. It was just meant to point out how statistically insignificant it is because it rarely happens. I haven't seen anyone make a last second switch for an item in months.
"you can play around mori..." I feel like this is redundant and already addressed in a previous paragraph but like I stated above, there isn't really counterplay to a mori, especially if you get tunneled. If the killer isn't complete trash, you a gauranteed to die. The hatch will spawn eventually but the killer is faster and is more likely to find it first. I have no idea who comes into a match with a key and just hides until the match is over, but if that's something that happens, then I'll grant you that one point because that's stupid. Anyone I know plays the game and only uses the key IF it comes to that.
"keys on the other hand can be taken in by one out of the four survivors and still change the entire flow of the game. it doesnt really matter what you do as a killer" That's just false. It absolutely does matter, because if you dominate the survivors especially if you're able to kill them with 3 gens still up, then the hatch won't spawn until there's only one survivor left at which point, statistically the killer has a higher chance to reach hatch first with their higher movement speed. A key is rarely this game changing thing until it's close to or during end game. Moris on the other hand are game changing from the start.
"this pretty much sums up my point very well: the killer has to work in order to get the mori to work. a survivor can literally hide in lockers all game until their team died, do nothing themselves and still get a free escape for nothing." Again, idk who does this but if one ######### does this and escapes themselves with like 8k points because they didn't contribute, oh well. That scenario aside, survivors have to work to use a key and have to accomplish a majority of their objective. On the other hand, a Mori can literally be used less than a minute into a game. Billy gets a chainsaw, hooks the survivor leaves. Someone saves, Billy comes back and tunnels. Person gets Mori'd. I've seen this happen plenty of times under a minute into the match. If that counts as "putting in work", then sure. That's so much effort on the killer's part.
"keys are only really broken on SWF tho. especially if one brings a rainbowmap, they are coordinated on gens and can coordinate their hatch escape, so they get the maximum amount of escapees from it" I would say keys are more powerful in a SWF group, but not broken. If you kill everyone, it doesn't matter whether they are SWF or not.
"only allow the key user to escape" No, that's ridiculous and makes no sense.
"i dont freakin care if one has a key and escapes with it, i can deal with that. what i cant deal with is when ONE brings a key and then allows MORE THAN ONE to escape with it." The amount of work that has to go into more than one person escaping makes it fair.
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Did anyone suicide on first hook? That could also do it because that means you didn't chase and hit that person enough which isn't your fault and sucks for you
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I never expected to get to 70 which is why I didn't do that battle pass. I have a full time job during the week and only have time to play games Friday night through Sunday morning. And I damn sure don't feel like playing THIS game every weekend for that entire time.
The rift can kiss my ass XD
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/825141#Comment_825141
yeah if you say so fam xD
besides, i did address your arguments. some in the post i just wrote and some were already addressed in the post you were commenting on, so i didnt really see the need to repeat myself there. thats why i said you should finish reading before commenting.
lol if by "already addressed", you're referring to your two false claims that I refuted (That Moris have requirements and somehow keys don't AND you can prep for a Mori but not for a key), then sure. You addressed them. Well done
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@Mister_xD said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/825053#Comment_825053
you kinda ignored the rest of my comment tho...
for the prep time: how am i, as a killer, supposed to prepare for a key again? the only thing i can do is camp / tunnel the key guy and then patrol the item underneath the hook in order to deny the other survivors the ability to pick it up. this comes at the expense of losing map pressure, which still guts your gameplay. all of that because of a single key, mind you. i also literally said that, unless you specifically look for them in the lobby you wont see them, as survivors love to hide them behind their body if they hold one and the item is very tiny - i also mentioned last second switches (= no prep time at all)
moris on the other hand appear in the offering screen, have a loud soundeffect and are clearly visible to everyone in the trial - and even IF someone happens to miss them, heck they can always press ESC in the trial to show the offerings again. they wont be able to take preparations before they enter the trial, though they have lots of time to do that during the loadingscreen and the trial itself. there are 3, not too hard ways how moris can be avoided: 1) be good at looping (this takes no special preparation), 2) genrush (very common when a mori pops up) and 3) stealth.
=> you can play around moris, yet a killer, ,as i have explained in my previous comment, can not play around the key. the hatc his something that will pop up sooner or later, all the survivor with the key needs to do would be hiding until that happens.
now, i would really advise you to read the rest of my comment aswell, otherwise you're gonna miss a rather important part of it...
I read the entire comment but that part is irrelevant because you shouldn't have to switch your play style if you don't suck. If you're a decent killer, you just kill them all anyway before the gens are done and if one gets out because of a key, then oh well.
The key isn't a factor until late in the game and if you feel like you had to tunnel or camp someone with a key from the start, that says a lot about the killer's ability and confidence in themselves, nothing to do with the item itself. I read the whole comment. I only responded to the relevant parts.
Also they keys are very easy to see pre-game because the characters stance is different. Plus last second switches are rare and hence, irrelevant because they don't happen often enough to matter.
I see you didn't address my two points though which must mean you have no argument to refute that Moris are stronger than keys by any criteria.
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@Mister_xD said:
moris, while not being perfectly balanced, are a lot more fair than keys imo.
you get a warning the killer runs one, you can play around it, they gut the killers emblems and they are guaranteed to be gone after the game, weather tey got used or not.
keys on the other hand can be taken in by one out of the four survivors and still change the entire flow of the game. it doesnt really matter what you do as a killer, if you kill survivors the hatch will spawn and someone with the key will just jump in (even if you kill the key dude, they usually just swarm the hook then to get the key) and allow themselves and possibly even more survivors to leave early. if you however dont kill them, gens will be getting done and they have the exits available. its literally a lose - lose situation. you cant really play around it eigther, since survivors playermodels tend to hide keys behind their backs in the menu, so you cant even prepare for it properly (especially with a last second switch) and its just annoying to face.
at least moris have an requirement for you to complete before you can use them. keys are just "hey, your team died and you did nothing all game but happened to bring in a certain item? well, you clearly deserved to be handed out this easy escape! :D"
keys are only really broken on SWF tho. especially if one brings a rainbowmap, they are coordinated on gens and can coordinate their hatch escape, so they get the maximum amount of escapees from it.
here is how i would fix keys:
- add an animation to opening the hatch that can be interrupted by the killer
- only allow the key user to escape
- remove / rework the dull key. it is way too strong for an very rare item.
Pause. Rewind. What?
So you get a warning of a Mori AS you are loading into a match. You generally know if there's a key before the match starts and can prep for it (outside of a key gained from a chest). So in terms of prep time: Mori>Key
Then you talked about requirements for use so let's examine this.
Requirement for Mori: Hook someone ONCE. Next time you find them, they're eliminated from the game. This can potentially happen 30 seconds into a game with an instadown killer.
Requirement for key: If 4 survivors still alive, ALL gens must be completed, then the hatch has to be located and for all 4 to escape, they have to either have SWF comms or has god tier coordination to get everyone to the hatch all without being found by the killer who can close the hatch.
If 3 survivors alive, all but 1 gen must be completed, then hatch has to be located, and same as the rest from above.
If 2 survivors, 3 gens must be completed, then same as above.
And 1 survivor, they have to find the hatch after the killer closes it and use the key. That scenario has the least conditions attached.
There's no situation in which a key can be used in the early phase of a match. So if you want to argue about requirements, then again Mori>Key
So would you like to rethink your argument?
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Sounds like you just need to get better at the game. I got 2 4ks today without running Ruin. If finding survivors is such a big issue for you, run Whispers. I run it on every killer and it helps apply early pressure and find people hiding in dead zones where gens are already done.