Disparity between killer and survivor bloodwebs - and a way to fix it.
Currently killers all have to purchase their addon's in order to play at their optimal level. survivors can find items in chests in order to buff themselves during the match whilst also holding onto items they gain if they survive, or use an offering.
this creates a problem i'd like to discuss, where survivors are rewarded for bringing their best items whilst killers are punished (this isn't me saying that survivors should lose their items on a match they survive on the contorary)
Killers are forced to constantly purchase addon's which whilst progressing them towards new perks and upwards in the bloodweb can be very expensive, let alone the fact that people like to play multiple killers with a variety of builds. This disparity means that survivors can focus less on items, and addons and more on the perks that they want due to the fact that they can always farm for items during gameplay, and even keep the ones they have whilst killers always have to fight for more. This is actually a problem on the survivor side we see quite often, a 4 man swf can bring in 4 purple toolboxes, play optimally and finish all gens in under 5 mins are allowed to keep the same toolboxes that allowed them to win so fast in the first place.
The thing is with the game in its current state allowing killers to keep powerful items for winning the match would somewhat break the game, unlike how it is with survivors. whilst a survivors item and addons make up 1/4th of the teams total power, a killers addons are essentially the exact reverse. However i still believe killers should have a win condition that allows them to keep their offerings, along with killing all survivors they should require atleast 1 pip and perhaps just under a double pip worth of end game rating in order to keep their item. the logic behind this being that they played a fair match, they won, and they did it in a way that appeased the entity (ie the devs in that the game was long enough and they 3 hooked everyone sort of thing.) this prevents addons from being kept that would end the game either too fast (ie too powerful addons, or addons used in a way that makes the game unfun) or addons that didn't really help/didn't progress the match in a good fashion (think tombstone/fragrant hair on myers, there incredibly powerful but your not really playing a normal match and therefore shouldn'[t keep the addons.) some addons (Specifically some ultra rares) should also be exempt from being kept unless using a black ward.
Killers also should have a way of gaining addon's during the trial, allowing them to essentially not have to constantly farm in the bloodweb. I've suggested this before but adding the ability for a killer to break a chest in order to recieve a random addon would be an incredible addition to the game. also reworking the chest addons as the cut coins serve little to no purpose (i mean chests delay the game? thats what you want as killer plus if killers can get some use out of chests too, then the more the merrier right?)
TLDR killers have to constantly farm in order to use killer builds, or have a usable killer, whilst survivors can earn their builds midmatch/keep their builds at the end of the match. this creates a disparity in bloodweb spending and whilst someone who plays a lot of killer might want to play multiple with multiple different builds, there funneled into purchasing tons of addons until they get the "right ones" they want for the killer they want to play (which only offers them a single game, whilst survivors can get multiple if they play their cards right)
Comments
So we ignore the fact that Killers generate more BP than Survivors? And that Killers have the easiest and best way to get more BP via a Perk?
I don't see an issue here.
Addons for killers are meant to help increase the power and not be needed. In fact playing with certain add-ons constantly can make you worse over time as without them you can lose what you had before. You can also gain 40-50k points as killer using bbq every game very easily.
While some feel certain ones are needed it is the same argument some make for certain perks being needed. While one player may like x add-on another prefers a different one. Nothing is ever needed unless you start to heavily rely on it.
Kicking a chest may seem like a good idea but what it does is waste time for a chance of an addon which I don't see as being a good choice to make in a time limited game unless you are waking right past it out of chase but even then that 10 seconds or so can mean is 40s of overall gen time if all four are alive.
Chests are there to distract survivors from doing gens so you want them to be able to open them.
Survivors items can be strong but they also have limited uses within a match. Killer add-ons are useful for the whole match and they do have a perk to stop a survivor item from being as useful.
Overall it's a want rather than a need. Most would want to have the strongest things available at all times which is why that can't happen as then it just becomes the norm.
Considering the devs are aptly attempting to mend this issue by allowing survivors easier ways of obtaining points in the survival category, whilst also having wglf a perk that grants the same bonus as bbq. along with the fact that survivors also have access to the bound envelope which doesn't affect killers.
This doesn't devalue the discussion? just because there are more "important things" doesn't devalue what im trying to talk about...?
Whilst it may not really be an issue, newer killers don't have access to all perks or a variety of addon at their disposal, hell even new released killers don't exactly have access to much of their arsenal. whilst i don't disagree that its more of a want then a need it is an issue i see as something that could be fixed along the way which is why i thought it useful to bring up for discussion. passing a chest as a new trapper player at rank 20, being able to kick it to destroy it with a 2s channelable action in order to buff their abilites that they may not have anything for yet? i see that as something that can only benefit the games health. plus it makes no sense for a killer to be unable to interact with a chest in any way.
"Considering the devs are aptly attempting to mend this issue by allowing survivors easier ways of obtaining points in the survival category, whilst also having wglf a perk that grants the same bonus as bbq. along with the fact that survivors also have access to the bound envelope which doesn't affect killers."
WGLF Tokens are far more difficult to get than BBQ-Stacks. You get BBQ-Stacks for simply doing the Objective, WGLF-Token require to either rush for Unhooks like a mad lad or to take unneccessary Hits to hope it is considered as a Protection hit.
Furthermore, Bound Envelope? This is 25% Bonus BP for 5K Cost. This means, in order to have any profit you have to have at last 20k BP per game. And if another Survivor brings it, yeah, sure, you have some Bonus-BP, but not compared to BBQ.
Are you really arguing that killers get the short end of the stick here? Survivors get way less BP on average, and add-ons and items aren't nearly as make-or-break as some people here make them out to be.
Lol you were the guy telling people to stop complaining right?
Anyway, the forums are for sharing ideas. This is what OPs doing.
The bloodweb is a terrible system to begin with. Add-ons being limited-use is a bad idea that lets people justify killers having wide swings in power just based on the addons they bring due to them being "ultra rare" and whatnot. Items for survivors feel the same, but are generally less overbearing because survivors don't coordinate them to full power all the time.
Remove the bloodweb and rebalance add-ons as unlimited use items that modify killers' powers, not act as straight buffs required for some killers to be functional at higher levels of play.
I agree with you entirely, but it's also not realistic for them to remove the Bloodweb entirely, because the game would wither away without a progression system. I'd much rather them make perks way way way more accessible and easy to unlock/collect, and keep items more or less the way they are now, in terms of cost and acquisition.
Or, you know, redesign the system entirely (which would be better).
What progression is there in having to grind endlessly to get the addons you want? I don't feel like I'm progressing burning through blood-webs looking for Trapper Bag addons, I feel like my points are being wasted trying to make a killer playable.
I should put together another thread on how many problems the Bloodweb creates for the game. I don't think it's a "progression system" more than it is a grind that forces you to play more just to achieve the playstyle you actually want to use.
Heh, you and I would get along. Here's a starting point for you: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/92948/causes-and-solutions-for-the-perk-grind-in-dead-by-daylight
Yes, the progression system is D-E-F-I-N-I-T-E-L-Y a monotonous grind. It's the single biggest problem in the entire game. As-is, it's a bad, baaaaaaad, excessively predatory and player-unfriendly progression system. It shouldn't take a new player 100+ hours just to get a fully kitted out character with just a few perk combinations that they want to try.
The point I was trying to make is that the game needs a progression system. It could be way better than what we're stuck with, though. In a perfect world, the perk grind wouldn't be so miserable, and the item situation that you described could be dealt with.
That has always been the case and id argue it's a good thing.
You want players to learn how to play without the best add-ons and perks. It gets them used to the mechanics instead of being reliant on certain things in the game. Learning the basics is better than being reliant on rng, kicking a chest and then maybe even getting something that hinders rather than helps as some add-ons do.
pretty much every killer is using bbq which is best teachable in the game,
killer gets more base bp
i play killers without/at most yellow add ons, if you need green or purple that are hard to get or you use only 2 add ons thats your problem? just stop relying on add ons to carry you?
It may sound silly, but without making any major changes to the Killer bloodweb and make Survivors cry about the diversity they could make a perk that's just like Plunderer's for Killer.
I have been wanting a Killer version of that perk for a long time, not because I want more add-ons but because it would be a fun meme perk. Kick a chest and that chest explodes injuring the Survivor and gives you an add-on instead, it can limited to 1 chest so that way you can use the Cut Coin and make only 1 chest appear and this perk would always injure a Survivor.
Much better perk than Iron Maiden
Id just be happy if certain killers get adjusted to not be so addon reliant. The difference between a Bubba or a Doc running addons versus not running addons is pretty significant. How much of a power does doc even have when not using addons?
I run doc without add ons all the time and he works just fine.
Whats the point of his power without addons though? It feels like the addons is what actually make his power have a purpose.
Personally I'm ok with the current system. As others said killers get consistenly more bloodpoints than survivors, plus their addons are generally speaking more valuable than the survivors' ones.
The thing is most killers are only viable at high ranks with addons.
Most people will say that killers get more BP than survivors in general and especially with BBQ. Well it's not always the case at high ranks. And survivors are free to use WGLF if they want bonus points aswell or Prove Thyself that guarantee 8K minimum per match just in the Objective category.
Survivors get to keep their items when they escape, killer lose their addons even when they double pips. Yus certain addons shouldn't be keep like all the ultra rares killer addons, but something should be implemented to get back your green, yellow and brown addon.
OP suggest breaking chests. That is a nice idea but yet too much time wasting for a killer whose every little second matter.
I add 2 ideas to the list :
OR
Never said killers we're getting the short end of the stick at all. Just wanted to make a suggestion/bring up something I considered an issue?..
Sorry, not trying to put words in your mouth (although from my phrasing that's exactly what I did!).
I suggested before that killers could keep addons based on pips. 1 pip you keep your lower rarity addon. 2 pips you keep both.
I agree with OP. Playing killer is expensive and a change would be nice. I'd even be happy if they just guaranteed a black ward (or two?) in every killer bloodweb after level 49. You could reuse addons a few times before having to spend 50-60k on a whole bloodweb that might not even have the addons you want.
[rant]
Not to say, "woe is me, playing the killer is hard," because I like the challenge as well as the reward for the hard work. But now you can get a similar reward, if not more, without working quite as hard. So, why deal with the stress of playing killer and spending BP to remain competitive, when you can play survivor "for free"? The progress is a bit slower, but you only need to stress during chases and you can still reach similar BPs as killer without buying any addons. From my experience, decent survivors are making 20k+ BPs half the time or more with the recent changes, and I've seen it from both sides.
Also, per the 3.4.0 PTB patch notes, the potential changes to protection hits could make maxing out WGLF stacks easy enough to cap them before the match is over, bringing survivor BPs on par with killer. Just body block a killer carrying a survivor, take a hit, and run away 4x -- survivors already do this without receiving any BP benefit. It has the potential to screw over greedy survivors, but should cap boldness and WGLF quickly (and altruism if survs take turns healing one another). If done quickly enough, people could max these, then suicide to score some quick BPs per hour.
Overall, it seems to me that playing killer in the future won't have many, if any, incentives over survivor as far as progression goes. Playing killer will be a preference, or for some daily, or tome challenge. Otherwise, if you're being practical, you're just doing things the hard way.
150% WGLF was fine, I find it funny that they considered lowering the bloodpoint amount as a fix to survivors farming eachother, now that safe unhooks are a thing it should be reverted.
I have always stated that one of the dumbest mechanics comparing Killers to Survivors is how Survivors can bring items, use them 99%, and still keep them. Meanwhile if a Killer loads in and all the Survivors
ragequitdisconnect they lose their Bloodpoints and get nothing beyond a "lol go f@#k yourself" in terms of Disconnect Bloodpoints. Killers have a baseline 10000 cost to play the game while Survivors can leave the match with more Bloodpoints than they came in with. (On their person IE they can find items in chests.)It's easy enough to say "items shouldn't be 99%-able" but such a huge change would create massive balance issues and a lot of perks, items, and addons would require massive changes to compensate for this tweak. Franklin's is suddenly terrible and there's little reason to take Streetwise, and that isn't even mentioning how gloriously this screws with the concept of chests as a whole.