Raconteurminator
Raconteurminator
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I'm always in the mood for heckin' doggo pics.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3520434#Comment_3520434
The Killer doesn't deserve the free kill at the end either. You might as well say that Survivors should automatically escape when all gens are powered and not waste the Killer's time trying to catch them all last minute.
The Killer chased someone, downed them, and hooked them. Then at some point, they chased three people out of the exit gate while preventing a save in order to secure that kill. It's not pretty, it's not efficient, but it was earned. If this community was more willing to accept that, you know what, sometimes people that aren't you can deserve something, there'd be less salt and entitlement flying around.
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@jordanjustice said:
Agreed. My "luck" in the match to not be hooked does NOT indicate I am a bad teammate. There are many scenarios in which this could play out. For example... What if I got into various chases with the Killer, but they were unable to down me? However, they were able to down my teammates.
I also just experienced another scenario to prove why this auto-kill needs to go (besides the fact that it was set in place for a mechanic that no longer exists)....
I just had a match where the gate was opened.. 4 teammates alive. I got the unhook and got hit by the camping killer. on the way to the gate, I was downed, but the other 3 teammates escaped. Yes, you guessed it... This was my FIRST hook. The gate was about 20 feet from the hook. If I KOBE, I am guaranteed to escape. However, due to the unneeded auto-kill mechanic, I was swiftly killed instead of being given my 3 chances to Kobe. The game was not over, but yet an outdated mechanic killed me.
I know you killer mains enjoy the easiness of getting auto-kills, but literally, the game is not over and it shouldn't exist. It was put in place for a problem that no longer exists. This mechanic is therefore, factually, outdated.
Of all the scenarios where this plays out, most of them are just you being a bad teammate. However, it's completely irrelevant to the point of last-hook-kills, so it doesn't matter to me if you're the best player in the universe. You bang on about Killers wanting easy kills, yet you're arguing for a guaranteed escape because a random number generator decided in your favour. How is that anything other than wanting something for free? The Killer earned that kill more than you earned an escape because you pressed a button and rolled a dice.
You call death on the final hook of the match outdated, but you've done nothing but make a very good argument as to why self-unhooking is the outdated mechanic. In a game that is moving closer and closer to balanced, a game that is moving closer and closer to consistently rewarding skill expression, a random chance to win has no place to exist any more.
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If they can't see, how do they know which way they're facing or if they're snagged on something?
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The Killer tried to achieve the best possible result, heaven forfend. That's not weird or in any way abnormal. Know what is? Suggesting strangers are weird or abnormal for playing a game within its rules. Hilariously, this is always done by those that accuse others of taking the game too seriously. Taking the game too seriously is trying to armchair psychoanalyse strangers, not playing for a 4K.
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@Beatricks said:
Because people understand the difference between description and prescription.
I'm probably the most vocal member on the forum going so far as believing that the DC penalty should be flat out removed or significantly decreased so that only really notorious abusers get significant bans.
And yet I am also frustrated by survivors killing themselves on hook just because they are going up against a Legion. I want this game to be fun. I understand that as long as the developers don't do anything, people WILL find a way to not play a match that they are not enjoying. You can come up with the most convoluted ways of forcing some poor Solo players to be a Blight's bloodpoint pinata, but I guarantee you that those pesky survivors will come up with a way to get out of the match as soon as possible.
You don't treat symptoms, you treat the underlying cause. And the underlying cause is that the game is miserable to play about 19 out of 20 games and the only thing keeping the playerbase at a level even close to functioning is the fact that we can go next when we get the sixth 5k+ hour Blight main clapping everyone at five gens remaining.
Separate the sweat, balance the game, just do SOMETHING, because banning people will not be a solution in the long term.
The underlying cause is, for the most part, an hilariously large sense of entitlement; a group of people who will never be happy unless everything goes their way 100% of the time. Making changes to accommodate that entitlement won't make it go away, it'll just make it worse. Banning people maybe isn't a long term solution, but giving in to entitlement will never be the solution to anything at any point.
I've had people tell me in end-game chat that they refused to play because I was 'tunnelling' despite the fact I only hooked them once and they elected to die on hook immediately. I've had people do the same because Trickster is apparently the most OP Killer in the game, or CI is broken or Bamboozle is broken, etc. How do we balance the game around that mentality? These are, every single one I've encountered, people looking for an excuse to quit and join a new lobby. When I play Survivor, let's use your numbers, 19 out of 20 games are miserable for me to play not because of the Killer but because some entitled brat dies on first hook. That puts the rest of us in the situation where we either have to struggle through an unwinnable game or just call it quits then and there.
I put it to you, if people are quitting at the slightest hint of inconvenience to go join another game and another and another, then the player base isn't even remotely functional - it's broken. And they're the ones breaking it.
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If they got tilted and decided they didn't want to play, that's fine. D/C, close the game, play something that doesn't get them so tilted. Perfectly reasonable, perfectly understandable. Thing is, we all know it's not true. They wanted to play 20 seconds ago and they'll want to play again in 20 seconds time. It's not that they 'don't feel like playing' any more, it's that they don't feel like playing when things aren't going their way for a fraction of a second.
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Unless you want to heavily restrict player autonomy to the point that Survivor queue times are three weeks long, there's nothing you can do about tunnelling. If you want to tell the Killer who they can chase, how they can chase them, when they can chase them and what to do if they win that chase, you might be better off petitioning for Killer bots being added. No actual person is going to sit through red-light-green-light just to play the game to the satisfaction of people who, let's face it, will accuse them of tunnelling anyway.
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My experiences with BU + FTP have been nothing short of completely miserable. Counter-play is zero to minimal.
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@Ebonbane2000 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3514019#Comment_3514019
Killers get rewarded for sucking WITHOUT having to use perks..
Bloodlust - rewarding for sucking at chase (in addition to naturally being faster)
Auto window blocking - helping stop looping
stunning when jumping off anything (even porches) - more help ending chase
Loud moaning (like they aren't being hunted by a killer) - why search when the devs point out survivors for you.
I think BHVR should stop rewarding both sides for being bad in chase. Remove bloodlust, remove MFT, and only have momentarily activatable speed (kinda like in TCM) abilities that can be used strategically and require skill.
1) Bloodlust is a band-aid fix for bad map design. It's not a reward for Killers being bad, it literally enables the possibility of winning a chase.
2) Auto window blocking is, again, a band-aid for bad map design to stop infinites using god windows. It has nothing to do with Killers being bad.
3) You get slowed by falling from high places, it's generally how high places work. Brace for impact or break your legs.
4) Injured Survivors make pained noises after being stabbed horribly. I mean, obviously.
None of what you said rewards Killers for being bad.
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You're prestige 69 and not one person said "nice."
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Dredge: horrible to face, but in a weirdly good way. Nightfall is genuinely unpleasant.
Bubba: can't really hate Bubba. Yes, he's a campy boi, and I've seen my share of face-camps, but I still can't hate him.
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@MikaelaWantsYourBoon said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3512953#Comment_3512953
They don't wanna get penalty time tho? Killing yourself on hook is free and has no penalty.
BHVR just should remove dc penalties, so if they don't want to stay they can dc. And bot will replace them.
If they don't want the penalties associated with doing a thing they shouldn't be doing, maybe don't do that thing. Killer players are always told they should play for the fun of others, that they should have empathy for the opposing team. Maybe Survivors that leave the game should have some empathy for their own team, suck up the D/C penalty and let a bot join.
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@Biscuits said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3513005#Comment_3513005
If people aren't having fun, they aren't having fun. Entitlement has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of things killers can do to make the game not fun for survivors, and you are all aware of those things. Don't pretend like killers are providing a service.
I agree. If people aren't having fun, they aren't having fun. The solution is to take themselves out of the environment where they're not having fun. Like I said; they know the game, how it works, the good and the bad. At this point, they are aware of all of the things others can do to make the game not fun for them, and this includes other people quitting and turning matches into no-contests.
They join games knowing they're likely not going to have fun at this point, then they quit without leaving a bot knowing everyone else won't have fun either now. Entitlement has everything to do with it, because if they truly weren't having fun, they'd just stop. Joining a lobby to experience only the good while taking their ball and going home when the bad happens -- that they're fully aware may happen -- is entitlement. They think they're entitled to none of DBD's bad parts and they think they're entitled to be one of those bad parts for other people if it doesn't go their way.
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@Melinko said:
People will never DC and give the bot when it means they have a penalty.
They can't remove the penalty, or people will just DC with no concern.
If people opting out of the match is happening, the answer isn't punish them for doing it. Instead, there needs to be a look into why is it happening? Gen rush increased, therefore tunneling and camping increased, and that has lead to more people opting out as soon as it looks like they are going to get camped or tunneled.
Sure, some of it is just people upset they are first down but most of the opt outs I've seen in matches come from a killer starting to tunnel or sitting on the hook. People are over it. If you want to ban people for the opt out, you'd have to start banning people for the cause (tunneling and camping) and that turns into a whole rabbit hole.
Someone opts out, you have two choices. Play out the match and hope the killer isn't a complete turd and realizes someone opted out. When I'm on killer, I will let 1 or 2 people go for certain when a teammate drops like that.
Other option, walk to the killer, get hooked, opt out as well and start a new match.
The reason it happens is simple enough. It's a massive sense of entitlement, and no matter what changes are made to the game, you can't fix that. They know the game, they know how it works, the good and the bad. They know all this before they ever hit a lobby, yet still make the choice to do so - it's just they want all the good and none of the bad. Doesn't work that way: you get what you get and then you move on. The answer isn't to destroy the game for everyone else because they're inconvenienced, it's to stop playing the game they're clearly not enjoying at this point.
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I don't think anyone is going to have a go at you for asking a question. It seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to ask.
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It's not a brilliant experience to have Adrenaline pop 0.5 seconds before I hit someone, but occasionally being annoying as hell doesn't make it broken or problematic. It has the steepest activation cost in the game so it needs an effect worthy of it. And, if Adrenaline increases further in popularity and it becomes tedious and unbearable, Terminus exists to kick it in the face.
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@Chiky said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3505586#Comment_3505586
why only your own?
This community is, well, it's this community. Toxicity is bad enough without giving braggadocious jerks more ammo.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510947#Comment_3510947
You completely ignored the actual facet of tunneling, being immediately chased off hook, to latch onto Freddy's ability to teleport instead. You are seeing the individual leaves of a single tree, not the forest I am trying to mention. If you want to conveniently ignore the major points to laser focus on the minor points, you aren't engaging in good faith.
I do agree certain Killer's kits lend more towards a snowbally, end the game 'early' (not 12 hook) style. Like if say that Trapper got a basement hook with some traps set up, or an Oni getting a multi-down in power. Anti-tunnel effects wouldn't disrupt these methods of snowball victory, as people are downed before they get rescues, not after, and are lost upon the CA of trying to pick up a downed teammate.
And you're ignoring that the conversation is over. It was over before your previous post. I wasn't trying to engage in anything at that point, I was making a clarification and signing off (asking you not to ping me, which you also paid stellar attention to).
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510446#Comment_3510446
'Toggle-tunneling' most certainly is tunneling if the Surv never had a chance to touch a gen, and still had DS/OTR available without intentionally banking it. The Survivor had no chance to complete a Conspicuous Action post-hook. That's tunneling by the games perk logic, and by anyone who can be in that position. Even then, that doesn't stop a Killer from downing Surv B across the map while Surv A is still on hook, then walking back and waiting at Surv A's hook for them to be unhooked and target them again. Many Killers like Onryo/Demo/Freddy can just TP back and instantly tunnel someone post-hook anyways.
I disagree with 80s gens being too low. I was able to win consistently with Clown of all Killers, but to be fair I was using the old Pop/Tinker wombo combo. You say people can't use the "I'm so good" argument, while you are using the "bad Killers are too bad without camp/tunnel" mirror argument yourself. Besides, there is a world of difference of appeal to one's own authority, and having one's experience. You can't know other people's position or experience without talking to them. I never claimed to have any authority, I merely know my own experience. I was bad, and now I think I'm less bad. I improved over time and I know other people can do the same. We don't remove Legion's Deep Wound because some Survivors don't understand the mend mechanic and fall into the Dying state. We expect people to learn the mechanics and play with them in mind.
As far as 'Bloodlust is a band-aid fix for poor map design', that is my exact argument for anti-tunnel perks. Anti-tunnel perks are a band-aid fix for poor gameplay design. Survivors just don't have a basekit version that doesn't deny other things. Bamboozle doesn't disable breaking pallets, so why does OTR not work with basekit BT?
Ah, yes, Freddy. The scourge of Survivors everywhere! But seriously, this is exactly what I said. "I'm good, therefore X is fine." As I also said, nothing good will come from this conversation continuing, and I can see that the straws you were grasping at have fallen into your shoes. I can see there was a point of confusion, which I'll clear up now. When I said (paraphrasing), "12-hook games is something most Killers cannot reliably do," I didn't mean Killer players, I meant the characters themselves. Trapper, for example, will have a much, much harder time getting 12-hooks consistently than a Blight would. That was my bad for not making myself clear. I wasn't arguing that Killer players are bad and need their hand holding.
Fun little conversation, but it is sadly at an end now. Feel free to have the last word, but don't ping me.
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I don't know why the crows becoming bats appeals to me so much, but it really does. This whole idea, I just generally really like it.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510308#Comment_3510308
It wouldn't stop the current dominant strategy of what I call 'toggle-tunneling', or Hooking Surv A/B/A/B/A/B/C/D. It would only stop the worst extremes of tunneling immediately off hook or A/A/A/B/C/D.
12 hooks is something most Killers can reasonably do, if they have the skill. It should be aspirational to improve and get better. Even then it is only skill relative to your opposition. So how exactly is it difficult to down a baby Feng in chase?
You say hand-holding relative to Survivors, as if Killers didn't have their hand held far more with 10% kick and hit CD becoming basekit, 5s off of each upper Bloodlust tier, and 10s per gen (increasing % gen regression at the same time). Killer keeps getting easier over time, thus weaker Killers think they are good when they aren't. The weaker Killers get to an MMR they don't belong in, then have to resort to camping/tunneling to win more matches. Since the design flaw exists, the weaker Killers are stuck in that negative feedback loop being 'forced' to tunnel in order to win matches that they aren't supposed to otherwise with skill against skill. Most of my matches are too easy now, and I intentionally go for 12 hooks to counterbalance that.
Killers and Survivors should choose appropriate perks. I don't think 4 gen slowdown should ever be more effective than Intel/Lethality/Slowdown/Flex. Similarly for Survivor with 4 of one category compared to Chase/Altruistic/Anti-Extreme/Flex. The problem is if over the course of the match, DS only gave 11s of value when it actually worked, why would I ever use that when Botany gives me 5.33s per heal, or Resilience could give me an extra vault per chase? Most times Survivor is likely to heal at least once or twice a match, and take numerous vaults, yet the hyper-specific no CA anti-tunnel doesn't give enough value to outpace the other choices.
What you call 'toggle-tunnelling' isn't tunnelling. You took something you're not fond of and called it 'also-tunnelling' to make it sound bad. A lot of things in this game are possible if you're skilled enough, but that isn't an argument - it's basically a roundabout way of saying git gud. It doesn't really contribute much, and certainly doesn't take into account the overall average skill of people playing this game. 80-second gens were demonstrably too low, for a start. And Bloodlust? Really? BL is a band-aid fix for poor map design. It's not hand-holding to give Killers the possibility of catching a Survivor if they play well. Without it, that possibility would not even exist in the majority of chases.
But I see what's happening now, you're confusing actual attempts at balancing with hand-holding. What Killers mostly want is balanced perks and reasonable gen time, what Survivors seem to want is hard restrictions on basic mechanics and to lobotomise their opposition's autonomy. We were having a nice little conversation, but I'll be honest: my attention span went for a little walk the moment you pulled the, "I'm so good that my matches are super easy and I have to handicap myself" shtick. Nothing good ever comes from a conversation after someone's basically appealed to their own authority to strengthen their argument, so we'll leave it there I think.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3510176#Comment_3510176
The MOBA/Shooter was simply examples of the known problem across games, and their particular implementations at fixing said problem. Learning of the problem and analyzing solutions allows for finding out an effective solution for your particular problem. Also I didn't offer a 'ludicrously effective anti-tunnel system', I offered a fair approach. The Killer out and about on the map is unaffected, so only the turbo tunneler or camper would be hurt by this 10s 'invis'. Survivors have to group up to heal, so maybe run A Nurse's Calling or Deathbound, or if they group on gens, Discordance. Then after the hook on the rescuer a BBQ could show you the aura of all/most players, and allow you to seek out the person on hook prior. If the Killer hooked this new Survivor before 10s after unhook even ended, I think the Killer didn't need any more help in killing the Survs. Working towards a 12 hook game ensures unskilled Killers get equivalent results, and get matched with equally unskilled Survivors. Hens showcased that Skilled M1 Killers can get more than a 90% winrate without even using power while intentionally not camping/tunneling/slugging.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaR-9_Vjp3s
It isn't a problem exclusive to Bubba, as other Instadown Killers (Billy/Ghosty/Myers/Iri Photo card Trickster/etc.) and permanently injured Killers (Legion/Plague/Engineer's Fang Pinhead/etc.) can equally benefit from facecamping. The issue is core to the game, not a one-off problem for a singular Killer. While the facecamping issue will eventually be resolved, that doesn't help the here and now, and it also doesn't help proxy camping the only entrance at a chokepoint like RPD, H-shaped maps, and more. To be fair the proxy camping is more a map design flaw than a core gameplay loop flaw. Also a Bubba can screw up a facecamp and still hard tunnel off-hook, so they aren't mutually exclusive unless you want to consider each millisecond instead of each match. They are often linked, as most tunneling includes some level of camping.
In order for gen-regression perks to work, you simply need to bring the newly nerfed Jolt with 2% regression in a 24m radius only when a Survivor goes down from a Deep-Wound timer bleedout /s. It doesn't matter if people bring something if it is unplayably bad. Do people want to have everything, yes, both sides bring 4 chase or 4 gen slowdown perks then complain about the lack of the variety in their kit. The problem is anti-tunnel is so ineffective, and fails to stack effectively.
Anti-tunnel needs to be more effective than general chase perks, so that people won't just bring a general chase perk instead. If I got 11s from DS when tunneled, or 15s from my Resilience from a barely squeezed out extra vault, Resilience is strictly superior. If OTR could work with the basekit BT being procced, it would be fine. If DS could actually make a Killer think twice about picking up, it would be fine. Sadly neither of those cases are true.
I just hatch escaped from a Wesker match on RPD where he had the full on facecamp build (Corrupt, Deadlock, No Way Out, Pain Res surprisingly, and the tunnel infection add-on.) and hard tunneled off hook. That wasn't a playable match, and I would have died if I didn't get lucky with the Hatch spawn. I then got a Knight match where the Killer tried to camp and tunnel, but he brought a rounded build, seemed to not understand the guard hook mechanics, and 3 people gate escaped as a result.
Your fair approach, in all fairness, was spooky Casper ghost mode. Invisibility and a guaranteed escape doesn't come across as particularly fair. It forces 12-hooks, something most Killers cannot reliably do, something the game isn't balanced around, something it may not even be possible to balance around. Also, congratulations, you found a player with, what, 7-8k hours of playtime. All that video proves is that Hens is ridiculously good at the game and performs at a level well above what 99% of players will ever achieve. Massive props to Hens, but that video is not something that should be waved around as evidence that 12-hook balancing is possible. You want unskilled Killers to be matched with equally unskilled Survivors, but that will never happen while one side is constantly having its hand held.
Killers should choose appropriate perks, is what I'm getting from you. People grouped on gens, Distortion. People healing, Nurse's Calling, etc. Maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm hearing "adaptation." That's exactly my point. A Survivor that wants to be tunnelled less would adapt their perks based upon the risk they are willing to take. DS is 11 seconds in your example, but Resilience is only 15 seconds in an ideal scenario where you make that split-second vault. That is the cost, that is the risk and that is the reward. Risk it for a biscuit or take a guaranteed 11 seconds. People choose to forgo Flashlights in favour of Toolboxes, people choose to forgo anti-tunnelling perks in favour of chase perks and progression perks. If people choose to forgo consistent defensive options in favour of higher rewards, bloody good for them - but those rewards have risks.
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3509855#Comment_3509855
Tunneling is akin to spawn-killing, which typically is at least dealt with in various games with different mechanics. In MOBAs you have a 'fountain laser' or some powerful turret that kills most characters faster than the attempted spawn killer can kill the respawning character. Round based shooters like CS spawn you cross-map with 0 potential for spawn-killing (unless you were to include the risk/reward of rushing an open midlane). (Good) Deathmatch shooters have spawn invuln, that typically lasts longer or drops earlier depending on the spawning players' actions (kind of like Conspicuous Actions). Most games have a good mechanic to fix this problem of fun, or have iterated on it over the years. Even if you were to consider basekit BT as 'spawn invuln', then shouldn't it function like Mettle of Man instead? No Deep Wound, full damage immunity? As is, if you get hit in basekit BT, you get denied a potential DH/OTR as well.
Personally I would fix 'spawn-killing' styled tunneling by making the ally unhooked (no Kobes) Survivor invisible (like Spirit phasing), silent, no scratch marks or blood and immune to damage for the basekit BT 10s, which ends early if they do a Conspicuous Action. If they are being hard tunneled off of hook, they don't lose their Endurance potential, and the Killer has to actively search a ~40m radius from hook. Alternatively the Killer could just go for the unhooking Survivor instead.
As far as Meta perks being "don't go down in the first place" perks, I'd say that's because it's pretty easy to prove you can win with a facecamping Bubba with stacked perks in the current version of the game. If you go down and get facecamped or even just a gen greed punish 2nd stage proxy camp, the Killer wins. A stacked facecamper (Deadlock+No Way Out being at the core) can easily 3k minimum. No skill other than 3 hooks and 3 kills. That is the consequence of kill based matchmaking incentivizing tunneling and camping, instead of the alternatives of hook based match making, or skill based matching. If Killers were encouraged to spread the pressure, the meta perks instead would be that of recovering from the pressure dealt. Heal perks and better rewards on unhook and other altruistic perks would look better. Similarly since getting hooked is such a death sentence in the realm of tunneling, Survs are faced with 'the only winning move is not to play', in the sense that getting hooked could mean you are going to death spiral out of control and lose. If anti-tunnel perks had teeth, they wouldn't be so incentivized to never go down in the first place.
As far as people using bad/useless perks, Spine Chill during ~2/3rds of the timeframe wasn't useless (it was nerfed in 7.1.0, or end of July), as it gave you a distance tracker for the Killer. This could essentially let you have wallhacks at tall loops to know which way the Killer is moving, but that required a decent amount of skill and knowledge to pull off. It also still had anti-stealth functionality baked in, so jumpscare-averse Survs could use it for that. Self-Care's self-sufficiency for some reason is very big in Asiatic regions, as mentioned in some dev stream and by others on the forums. Both SC's are available to new players also, as Claudette is free, and Spine Chill is a general perk, so both get their stats inflated from newbies.
As to your conclusions about frequency and fairness I'd say right and wrong. Frequency, most certainly this is negativity bias. Someone has a bad match AND they got tunneled, so tunneling takes the blame. To some extent it is a legit complaint, but probably overblown in general. As far as fairness due to people not bringing countermeasures, I don't think you've used 3s DS to see how useless it is as an anti-tunnel countermeasure. I'd say it buys 3s stun, 3s pickup animation, and 5s of instadowning them afterwards. 11s isn't a good value proposition for general use of a perk designed around countering tunneling. As far as OTR goes, if the Killer was going to tunnel, they can run up to you and from the prior chase they know if you brought Iron Will or not, then they can hit you off hook if you are silent, negating the perk entirely. If the Killer is powerful enough, they will hit you off hook in the 10s anyways because they can shred through the Endurance without a problem. That makes OTR only useful in the niche circumstance where the Killer plans on Tunneling AFTER the Surv gets healed, but BEFORE they do a Conspicuous Action. That happens at most only one time per 1 in 20 games in my experience. Again, the value proposition of 5% of matches getting an OTR Endurance proc for 1 Surv (that might not even be you) isn't good value.
I agree with the conclusion, you have to work for your own fun. When there is a core flaw of the game, people complain on the forums to get it fixed. They are doing exactly what you are asking of them by complaining about tunneling on the forums.
This isn't a MOBA, it isn't a team-based shooter; it's an asymmetric survival horror game. If you try to balance an asymmetrical game with a similar mindset to balancing a team-based shooter, you get more imbalance. A ludicrously effective anti-camp system is fine in a team-based game like CS because it affects both teams equally. A ludicrously effective anti-tunnel system in DBD is just a massive, uncounterable boost to one side. Your method of fixing tunnelling would essentially make every game a 12-hook game -- and may even promote more camping -- which isn't going to really be feasible for a lot of the Killer pool.
Your example with Bubba highlights more of an issue with Bubba himself than it does anything else. And, if the Bubba is face-camping, then he's not tunnelling - by definition. Face-camping is already going to be massively nerfed in a future patch, which is good, but also not what I was talking about. No, the Watership Down meta didn't form because Bubba so terrorised the entire Survivor community. It formed because not being caught is surprisingly conducive to escaping the trial quickly, regardless of the Killer. It doesn't, however, deal with getting caught.
In order for anti-tunnelling perks to work, first people need to bring them. One alone won't do it, just like one regression perk for Killers usually isn't enough. Perks don't tend to be so powerful these days that one solves all your problems. Fair enough about the Spine Chill thing, but it doesn't change the fact that a significant number of people want to have their cake and eat it. You can't have Sprint Burst, Adrenaline, Prove Thy Self and Resilience and be adequately defended against tunnelling.
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As much as people dislike hearing it: the opposing player is not, never was and, due to the subjective nature of it, cannot be responsible for your fun. It is not, nor can it be their responsibility to make sure you get to play the game beyond a point you deem acceptable (a point they have no way of knowing). It's a competitive game - only you can make that happen.
Perks and inbuilt protections exist that make it much harder and much less rewarding to tunnel, but a lot of Survivors I've seen (as Killer or not) think they can run no anti-tunnel perks at all and somehow be perfectly fine. No, instead, the most popular perk is Windows of Opportunity - a glorified SatNav. The meta is clearly built around people trying to avoid being hit or downed in the first place rather than dealing with the consequences of it inevitably happening. The majority of players are essentially running glass cannon builds and complaining when they get shattered.
You can't argue anti-tunnelling perks are bad or useless, because Spine Chill and Self-Care are sitting in the top 10 - clearly this community doesn't shy away from niche, possibly useless perks if there's a chance they'll do something useful one out of ten times. If tunnelling was so prevalent, there wouldn't be a preponderance of non-tunnelling perks in the top 10. Even if they were bad perks, with tunnelling being as bad as it supposedly is, there'd be more than Dead Hard scraping in at number ten.
This tells me tunnelling isn't A) as common as some would have you believe, and B) an overwhelmingly unfair tactic that most people are worried about enough to take measures against. The 22% of people running Adrenaline are so unconcerned about tunnelling that they elect to play the majority of the game with 3 perks.
Ultimately, everyone is playing the game for their own amusement, for their own fun; expecting others to go out of their way to play it for yours is naive at best. You want fun in a competitive game, you need to safeguard it yourself, because no-one else can be expected to do it for you. No-one else can do it for you.
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@CrypticGirl said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3508178#Comment_3508178
It shouldn't be that difficult to step out of range to use your power.
No-one said it was difficult. It's just not a thing that should need doing. It's a simple QOL change, is all.
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@CrypticGirl said:
Because there's no reason to use it near survivors being sacrificed? Even if there was, what's the harm in waiting 20-30 seconds for the sacrifice animation to complete?
An example I can think of is Larry. If you try to use your cameras after hooking a Survivor, you're punished with the anti-camping slowdown upon exit. This happens even if they were on death-hook and you didn't camp. There's no reason why a Survivor in the sacrifice animation should trigger the anti-camp effect.
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Even if you kept the token system (which I've never been a massive fan of), the charge system would be a really nice QOL change. No perk should be at the mercy of RNG as heavily as Pain Resonance is. Getting good Scourge Hook spawns is one thing, but losing all value for a hook because of something out of your control isn't fantastic perk design.
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@codebibi said:
abusing game mechanics to get a easy win is the exact same thing as cheating i see no difference and this type of thing should not be allowed in a multiplier game. It's extremelly toxic and ruin the fun and game expercience of other. you probably have fun as a killer but not the survivors, this is selfish of them. and since the beggining of the event i have been tunneled on hook to death 99% of the game i've played. you really think this normal behavior on a multiplier game? i don't think so. killer need to be punished to make them stop this toxicity and make this game a better place where people can have fun and enjoy the game.
Fun is subjective and, apparently, so is the definition of cheating. Tunnelling isn't cheating, it was never cheating, it never will be cheating. Neither is it, was it, or ever shall be, 'abusing mechanics.' No-one needs to be punished for playing the game within the confines of its rules, however, people certainly need to stop advocating for the arbitrary punishment of half the player base.
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@Killing_Time said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3506097#Comment_3506097
Honestly, without Lethal what is the point to bbq? I only use bbq with Lethal on either Nurse, Spirit or Fast Wraith.
It works okay enough on Pinhead if you're into playing Trigonometry: The Game to work out the location of the box.
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You felt bad about it, but not so bad that you left the basement.
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The point of Nowhere to Hide is to catch people that hide close to generators until the Killer is gone. The point of BBQ is to take the Killer away from the hook and reduce camping by giving them a new, far away target. Nowhere to Hide can't obsolete BBQ because they do different things. Nowhere to Hide is fine. The counter is to actually hide somewhere that isn't behind the first big rock closest to the generator.
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As long as it's only your own stats you could see, that'd be great.
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This definitely seems like the sort of thing Dagon would do.
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@Shaped said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504353#Comment_3504353
But forums said everyone runs mft now and it is top tier perk. They know.
Then take it up with the people that said that, not me.
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@Shaped said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3504340#Comment_3504340
It's usage is not growing at all. What does that tells you?
Maybe it is not as good as your fav streamer parrots.
We have no idea if its usage is growing or not. For all we know, it's top 15 or 20 at the moment. We won't know for sure until we give it time. And don't assume I'm incapable of making my own mind up.
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From April 27th to June 12th, MFT wasn't even in the game. Of course it's not in the top 10.
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@Rythoriak said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3501819#Comment_3501819
How is it not malicious intent if they do it multiple times per game. Or in TWO of my games bring them next to me and use the point emote or crouch spam to show the killer where I am and run off.
Might have been helpful to mention that before. I am many things, a mind-reader is sadly not one of them.
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It can't be bannable because there's no true way to discern if they were being malicious or incompetent. If we banned people for mistakes, there'd be no-one left to play the game. And, you know, sometimes you're being chased and there's only one viable path ahead of you - sometimes there are people around. It's unfortunate but it happens. You certainly can't expect people who may be on death-hook to just up and die for fear of invading your personal space.
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@HaunterofShadows said:
No. Pick rate is not an excuse to nerf something despite common beliefs and trends
You're right, it's not an excuse to nerf something. It is, however, perfectly in line with something Behaviour would do, has done, and likely will do again despite all logic. They're big fans of nerfing things based on spreadsheets.
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Lethal Pursuer is fine. It's powerful, but it's also a one-time deal. It helps you start one chase but it doesn't, in any way, help you win that chase. On top of that, Discordance isn't particularly rare, and just outright shuts it down.
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@catslayer said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3499559#Comment_3499559
not really the point. "standing still", no. they can clearly see the glyph that i'm touching at that moment, too. as a killer i saw a lot of survivors taking them, showing these glyphs and their sounds to me too. in the killer's pov i don't just "stand there" as in being afk, literally everyone can see me doing it; and the teammates, and the killer.
It doesn't really matter that you have a reason to stand still, it's that you are standing still. Again, a Killer chases you and hits you; just because you voluntarily forgo the chase doesn't mean they have to forgo the part where they hit you. Standing on the train tracks, etc.
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A Killer's whole shtick is to chase you and beat you violently about the head. If they see you standing still, it's a bit like Christmas. It isn't them being a dick, it's just the direct consequence of you standing still, probably in the open, in a game where standing still in the open is always a terrible idea. Essentially, don't stand on a train track and complain that the train isn't stopping.
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You are not a moral arbiter, you don't get to decide that camping is cheating, nor do you get to decide what is or isn't an acceptable way to play and dole out punishments accordingly. That seems to be a real problem this forum has when it comes to suggestions. It's not, "How do we adjust X?", it's always, "How do we punish people for playing in a way we've decided is wrong?"
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Actually, it is on sale. 60% off on Steam.
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If we removed everything that everyone found annoying to some extent, we'd have nothing left.
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She was an unimportant side character that was promoted to duo-protagonist late in RE5's development; bland and forgettable outside of the times her AI would screw you over. I platinumed the game, played it for hundreds of hours, but still can't remember a single thing she did in the story. I don't see her selling many skins.
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The bots aren't there to facilitate your leaving, they're there to compensate for your absence.
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If you're not willing to die to boop the snoot, you don't deserve to boop the snoot.
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If people complaining about Wesker isn't proof that we've all run out of legitimate concerns at this point, I don't know what is.