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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2030868#Comment_2030868
Yes he did.
Back to our discussion, what do you respond?
above
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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2030559#Comment_2030559
"Regardless, in almost any case of 3 gen triangle, there would be almost always one or two gens that are going to be a starting point for w+shift strats. Should I remind that 3 gen triangle is usually a scenario where killer has an advantage. I'm not even mentioning situations where survivors did well and had 2+1 or 3 gens on opposite corners of the map."
I was hoping you'd say that. A three gen isn't necessarily a winning position for killer. You can still mess it up. A 3 gen in the corner of the map will always allow you to get cut off. I don't think building a 3 gen strat in the middle of the map is a good idea unless you're a prep killer with ruin up or something. Most 3 gens are in fact on one side of the map. Many maps have limited central generators which is in the survivors best interests to complete first.
'Also, "there is no map where there aren't any generators you can't cut survivors off". Really? So if the hypothetical map spawn has only 1 gen you can cut survivors off, while all 6 other gens are spawned in a way that enables w+shift strat then it's okay? '
There is also no map that does this. Keep substituting the numbers and the answer will still be: No. There is no map that does this. No matter what map it is, there are generators in worse positions than others for survivor. Getting cut off is a fundamental part of killer initiation.
"Who stops survivors from purposely leaving such gens? I'm not even saying that this scenario doesn't necessarily have to occur at last gen left, it can happen at 2,3,4 or 5 gens, in that case the consequences are just less catastrophic."
Regardless of what position you're in the game. I'd highly recommend getting survivors off their bad generators. They're bad because if you start chase there, you're likely taking a hit.
'Nobody commits to such chases, unless they are certain this isn't costing them the game which basically means the survivor is completely safe. There should never be such scenario where survivor knows killer can't do [BAD WORD] to them without losing the game.'
Then we agree on that. No because there is no map where all the generators killers can't do anything to them. There's a reason why Otzdarva gets more stressed over losing one particular generator to another. He understand what a generator he can afford to lose is and isn't.
>I was hoping you'd say that. A three gen isn't necessarily a winning position for killer. You can still mess it up. A 3 gen in the corner of the map will always allow you to get cut off. I don't think building a 3 gen strat in the middle of the map is a good idea unless you're a prep killer with ruin up or something. Most 3 gens are in fact on one side of the map. Many maps have limited central generators which is in the survivors best interests to complete first.
There's the difference between messing things up and having no chance to do actually anything to win.
Midwich corridor gens is one example of such situation. Another example (As far as we're talking about 3gen, even though the problem isn't only about difficulty in pressuring such generators) is 3 gens being located in a "line.
For example, imagine Pale rose. One gen is between the shack and small boat. The other is near the corner and the shack, the last one is near withered dock (in the lowground). Here's a badly scaled scheme of Pale Rose.
Two gens (first and last one) are generators that are impossible to pressure because survivor would just run away (either in the direction of the dock or small boat) and not only lure killer far away, but also waste a lot of theirs time. In both situations killer is approaching from the side that opposes the "open field" for w+shift and going from the other way is impossible, since you have literally no time to lose or you'll lose the gen.
You can project that kind of situation on any other similar map where such situation might occur.
In any case, killer is either forced to let go of gen and very likely lose or just waste a lot of time in vain for the same result, unless he plays hostage doc with ruin totem right in this triangle who doesn't care about chasing survivors and enjoys running back and forth for 30 minutes until survivors give up.
>There is also no map that does this. Keep substituting the numbers and the answer will still be: No. There is no map that does this. No matter what map it is, there are generators in worse positions than others for survivor. Getting cut off is a fundamental part of killer initiation.
Don't really get what your point is. Of course there are bad generator spawns, like the one in the corner of pale rose I schemed above. The point is that there's a lot of gen spawns on many maps like swamp, cornfields, mcmillan, red forest, etc, etc where survivor basically is completely safe as long as he doesn't trigger chase and follow a path which can't be cut because of the obstacles on the map (pale rose example, gen3, killer has to follow survivor instead of cutting their path because of the obstacle that can't be bypassed)
>Regardless of what position you're in the game. I'd highly recommend getting survivors off their bad generators. They're bad because if you start chase there, you're likely taking a hit.
The ones that usually pop first? Like I said, it's less about generators (which I used an example of how w+shift can be unfair), but more about a possibility for survivor not to trigger chase and thus get a lot of extra time for their team without putting any effort into it.
Another example of w+shift unfairness that isn't directly related to gens is OoO exploiters who find a huge obstacle (like ones in Gas Heaven) and run around them with OoO or do the same on second floor of midwich. This is getting fixed sooner or later, however this has been a thing for quite a while.
>Then we agree on that. No because there is no map where all the generators killers can't do anything to them. There's a reason why Otzdarva gets more stressed over losing one particular generator to another. He understand what a generator he can afford to lose is and isn't.
Guess so. However there's too much too "safe" generators and that's not really good.
As for Otz, I would be triggered too, if I saw last three gens being spread out or placed in such a way that I have to spend half a minute to reach each of them.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2030493#Comment_2030493
Everyone is going for escapes as survivor and kills as killer. 2 kills / 2 escapes should be where the balance should be made. Unless you want Killers to not make kills or survivors not make escapes. What would the point of the game even being for survivor if they never had a chance to escape. The game should be equally fun for Killers as Survivors.
Maybe the rolls should be reversed. Killers should only make a kill in 20% of their games. I bet that would be absolutely acceptable.
You entirely missed the point.
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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2030493#Comment_2030493
Firstly I agree with kill rates not being a good measure for balance. There isn't a clear win condition but kills are pretty close to it for killer. If there was something set in stone for a win then there would be much better data and a win rate stat instead.
I must've missed the context on the hundred game sample you mentioned. My bad.
Okay so at a three gen perfectly centred in the map I agree you're no longer winning that match. Solution isn't to give up but rather take the chase and if you win that chase use that pressure to try for another down. Likely going to be a 4e in that situation dependant on hooks still available. That said, I'm sure mistakes were made for this match to get to this position and that's A okay. I want to point out here though that this is cherry picked/strawman/whatever. Your example is in a losing position as killer.
"Literally any open map where gens are in the middle or killer is forced to cycle between these gens in such a way that he physically cannot cut a survivor off because there's always a lot of room for them to run."
That's if the game has got to a point where these gens are the only ones left. There is no map where there aren't any generators you can't cut survivors off. Period.
Midwich is a badly designed map agreed. Probably where this is the worst.
Nobody said every. We'll take that word off the record. It's ludicrous to think a chase you initiate means you have to commit it if it's going to take 30 seconds to catch up.
>Okay so at a three gen perfectly centred in the map I agree you're no longer winning that match. Solution isn't to give up but rather take the chase and if you win that chase use that pressure to try for another down. Likely going to be a 4e in that situation dependant on hooks still available. That said, I'm sure mistakes were made for this match to get to this position and that's A okay. I want to point out here though that this is cherry picked/strawman/whatever. Your example is in a losing position as killer.
Perfectly centered was just an extreme example of unwinnable scenario w+shift can create.
Regardless, in almost any case of 3 gen triangle, there would be almost always one or two gens that are going to be a starting point for w+shift strats. Should I remind that 3 gen triangle is usually a scenario where killer has an advantage. I'm not even mentioning situations where survivors did well and had 2+1 or 3 gens on opposite corners of the map.
Committing to chase to the very end usually means letting go of last gen with everything that means: adrenalines, hope (the perk), opened exit gates and extremely aggressive tanking. Your only chance to prevent that is that if you commit to such chase when gens are not partially completed and even so survivor is very likely to lure you far away for you not to make it back in time.
>That's if the game has got to a point where these gens are the only ones left. There is no map where there aren't any generators you can't cut survivors off. Period.
Who stops survivors from purposely leaving such gens? I'm not even saying that this scenario doesn't necessarily have to occur at last gen left, it can happen at 2,3,4 or 5 gens, in that case the consequences are just less catastrophic.
Also, "there is no map where there aren't any generators you can't cut survivors off". Really? So if the hypothetical map spawn has only 1 gen you can cut survivors off, while all 6 other gens are spawned in a way that enables w+shift strat then it's okay? Your wording is terrible here or you purposely trying to substitute the concepts. Half of maps in the game feature a lot of w+shift spawns in every trial they are used in and the other half (with an exception of Gideon and Hawkings maybe) has such spawns in every second trial they are used.
>It's ludicrous to think a chase you initiate means you have to commit it if it's going to take 30 seconds to catch up.
Nobody commits to such chases, unless they are certain this isn't costing them the game which basically means the survivor is completely safe. There should never be such scenario where survivor knows killer can't do ######### to them without losing the game.
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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2030445#Comment_2030445
Those stats don't include DC's. Throwed games contribute to the statistics but no other game is invulnerable to skewed data due to throws.
The kill rates are a much larger sample size than that. It would be insulting if BHVR gave us data from a couple hundred games. Try hundreds of thousands of games mate.
Yes so the killer begins a chase in a poor position. It's up to the killer to not commit. It's that simple. There is no instance where generators are in a position where the killer can't cut a survivor off. It's ludicrous to think every chase you initiate means you need to catch up 30 seconds before the chase begins. What good killer player honestly does that?
>Those stats don't include DC's. Throwed games contribute to the statistics but no other game is invulnerable to skewed data due to throws.The kill rates are a much larger sample size than that. It would be insulting if BHVR gave us data from a couple hundred games. Try hundreds of thousands of games mate.
BHVR's stats don't consider disconnects or throws which occurs much more often. When I mentioned hundreds of games, I was obviously referring to certain individuals gathering data themselves.
I said it before, I'll say it again, killrates in this game don't matter. You can stand afk and make 4k with Bloodwarden or you can earn 9 hooks and get 1k because survivors escaped w/a hatch. This game is so extremely volatile in every stage, that judging by final result is simply foolish.
BHVR gave these stats because people asked them and nothing more. They themselves said not to trust given data because it might be and very likely is heavily flawed.
The only thing that more or less reliably shows the balance is the amount of hooks or gens done and what time does it take for/against certain killers to earn that.
>Yes so the killer begins a chase in a poor position. It's up to the killer to not commit. It's that simple. There is no instance where generators are in a position where the killer can't cut a survivor off.
- Three gens left, you have more or less good triangle (let's assume the distance between gens is from 20 to 32 meters)
- You play one of those killers who can't counter W+shift
- 3 survivors left
- Each of them sits on one of generators and does Shift+W strat every time you head in their direction
- Once you see it's a waste of too much time to do so and leave, they instantly return back to gens and the situation repeats. Basically they are always keeping ~20-26 meters between you and them so unless you decide to fully commit to chase, you have not a single chance to do any harm to them
What is the killer supposed to do to win here? Or is he supposed to give up? If your answer is positive, then I hope that you agree that when survivor is dealing with cheesy killer strats he's too supposed to give up.
> There is no instance where generators are in a position where the killer can't cut a survivor off.
Literally any open map where gens are in the middle or killer is forced to cycle between these gens in such a way that he physically cannot cut a survivor off because there's always a lot of room for them to run.
Or, another example, maps like Midwich with those long straight corridors and gens located on corners. Survivor spots you from far so you are either forced to find some very long "shortcuts" to get to them unseen (but not unheard) or you have to waste extra half of minute because this game's chase triggers ######### suck.
>It's ludicrous to think every chase you initiate means you need to catch up 30 seconds before the chase begins.
Who said EVERY? Stop creating strawman arguments, please.
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They stopped making unique chase music piece (or using close proximity piece) for killers for no actual reason (unless they wanted to save money).
I personally would preffer for killers to get their music back
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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2027783#Comment_2027783
Yes boldy (nickname for you). 10 seconds to gain 6 metres of distance if both survivor and killer are running in the exact same velocity vector. So what?
So go leave this discussion if you lack something essential to understand how much time for such little distance it is, thanks. All your lasts posts have been direct and indirect insults and zero actual contribution.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2027348#Comment_2027348
Survivors that aren't in the 3.8% of Red Ranks, are getting 4Ked 2/3rds of the time. (I haven't seen any data on Red Rank survivors yet). There have been 3 different people, if not more, keeping track of matches and survivors don't stand a chance. There is no way that running in a straight line alone will do anything, you have Billy, Nurse, Oni, Blight, Freddy, Wraith, Huntress, Clown, Spirit, Deathslight and Twins that can all counter running in a straight line. That's more than half the killers. This argument is beyond stupid.
Where did you get "4ked 2/3rds of the time"? From these flawed statistics that don't consider so many vital factors like throwed games or DCs? Really?
"3 different people, if not more, keeping track of matches and survivors don't stand a chance"
Who exactly, how many matches did they record, how much information did they gather? I'm pretty sure their statistics don't exceed a few hundreds of matches, which isn't really that much of statistics to deduce winrates or killrates.
>There is no way that running in a straight line alone will do anything, you have Billy, Nurse, Oni, Blight, Freddy, Wraith, Huntress, Clown, Spirit, Deathslight and Twins that can all counter running in a straight line. That's more than half the killers. This argument is beyond stupid.
Firstly, nobody said that running in a straight line alone is a problem. If survivor just runs in a straight line and then ends up dying I wouldn't mind. It becomes problematic when it's combined with things survivors do in chase. The guy wastes 20-30 seconds of your time by running in a straight line, then he starts using windows and pallets. All this time he's pretty much safe from you and you can't do anything unless this guy is an idiot.
Secondly, you claimed that my argument is stupid because half of killer roster has no problems with straight line gamers. However exactly because HALF of the roster CAN deal with it and the other HALF CAN'T this is a problem and my concerns are valid. There should be no such thing as "I can run in a straight line and win half of a minute before the actual chase even starts without risking anything" against half of killer roster, especially if that half is generally not the best killers in the game.
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@CluelessWanderer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2030423#Comment_2030423
I assure you that Canadians and Americans can be quite different. I don't necessarily like categorizing, I'm just making conversation, sir.
Well here you are certainly categorising people.
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Just wondering, I too had some observations, noticed that people from west countries like Canada or America tend to put labels and categorise people quite a lot, so I was wondering. I assumed you were american, but missed a tiny bit.
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Little offtop, but where are you from?
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@QwQw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2029272#Comment_2029272
Nice job insulting me and assuming I play at rank 15 instead of addressing any of my major points.
If anything you're probably the one who plays at rank 15, considering you have barely any posts here and think that Dead Hard isn't a problematic perk. But I digress, I'm not here to throw petty insults around.
For a second time, telling someone you need to play one of five killers (most of which barely counter Dead Hard better than the others) out of twenty two to have a chance against Dead Hard is not a good argument.
What if someone doesn't like playing ranged killers? What are they gonna do about Dead Hard, spend days and weeks mastering a new killer they don't enjoy playing just to have a shot at doing something against this perk? Do you really think that sounds fair?
Don't mind such people, they think it's totally fine when any killer but certain ones are almost unplayable because of how much meta perks and many other things in general screw them, then these same people complain about seeing only 3-4 different killers at best.
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@CanWeGetANewMap said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2029181#Comment_2029181
Use a projectile killer easy, including; deathslinger, Trickster, Huntress, Plague, Pyramid head, Demo(to bait), I don't see the problem. If you are not using one of these killers, to bad because just either leave chase or spend the extra 15-20 seconds Jesus
So a person has to play a specific killer in order to have less problems with a single perk that is extremely problematic otherwise?
I'd call here "Picking a perk isn't a counter" believers, but I guess they would find another excuse why such argument works only in one way.
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@Ivaldi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2027783#Comment_2027783
Because there's literally no situation where you would chase after a survivor in a straight line for 40 seconds.. If you do find yourself in this situation, then you need to rethink your strategy. You shouldn't be chasing a survivor that you can see from a mile away and expecting to catch up to them. And It's absolutely mind boggling that killers find a reason to complain about everything. It's like you just want survivors to be able to walk everywhere.
Yeah, exactly, no situation because you would almost always just abandon that "chase" in the first place since committing to chasing W gamer is almost always a losing strategy.
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That's how the game is right now. Twelve hooking is not a viable option unless you want to toy with survivors.
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Blight was awesome. His power seemed pretty lackluster at first, but turned out amazing. Other things about him were awesome as well.
To me the worst let down were either Twins or new "trickster" killer, although I'm not sure yet. Twins had horrible (in a bad way) design, bad and lacking power and just were pretty lazy. As for trickster, I'll see how he turns out, but as of now, he seems nothing more but a meme material.
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@Moxie said:
So sick of even hearing about this sad "debate".
"Survivors moving forward is toxic" just listen to how dumb that sounds.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but some opinions are wrong and frankly ridiculous.
Killers killing is toxic.
Did you even try to actually understand what the complaints are about? It's not about "sUrViVoRs RuNnInG tOxIC".
It was about flawed chase mechanics that don't work when needed which creates situations where survivor can run in a straight line for a long time, since it takes a lot of time for killer to catch up to them without chase being triggered.
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@VolantConch1719 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2027993#Comment_2027993
The way the OP structured their argument seemed to rely on how his alias has no connection to his power, and that is how I approached my argument. Of course that would be an EXTREME oversimplification of the Killers, but this shows the importance of wording your arguments well.
As I said (and you conveniently ignored), I feel the Idol would have been a better name because that is what he was. The Trickster was merely a stage name that does his character little justice (other than a connection to the dokkaebi trickster spirits brought up in Yun-Jin's lore), and will forever be a missed opportunity to use it for a Killer that does ACTUAL tricks.
However, even without taking his power into account, the Trickster does work as a title, even if not the best one. As others have pointed out (and you are calling a stretch), the whole thing behind him is how he looks like an ordinary person, able to blend into a crowd without appearing out of place. He uses this to "trick" people into thinking he's not actually the dangerous serial killer he is. He follows the trope of the villain that you'd never expect to be evil due to his appearance better than ANY OTHER KILLER IN THE GAME.
Once again, "Idol," "Showstar," "Musician," "Popstar," etc. all work way better than Trickster, but his title does work.
> the whole thing behind him is how he looks like an ordinary person, able to blend into a crowd without appearing out of place.
>He uses this to "trick" people into thinking he's not actually the dangerous serial killer he is. He follows the trope of the villain that you'd never expect to be evil due to his appearance better than ANY OTHER KILLER IN THE GAME.
Firstly, that's Legion's, Clown's and Ghostface's thing which one of them used long before DbD was even a thing.
Secondly, how exactly an extravagant glamour superstar can "blend into a crowd" or look like "an ordinary person"? His entire scenic persona (and as we know his true self) is being batshit insane.
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@thefallenloser said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2028010#Comment_2028010
not really, it's written in the bio lol
What? That he lured some people into the studio and burnt them down while they were begging for help? Or that he used to throw knifes in his youth?
That's not major enough to justify an alias he has. His entire persona wasn't about playing tricks or performing knife TRICKS (did I mention already that throwing knives isn't a trick? Then I'll say it again, throwing knives isn't a trick). His entire persona is about narcissism and creating music out of screams of agony. His power is about throwing knives and not performing flex tricks with them. I repeat, there's NO tricks in THROWING knives.
So, his alias doesn't describe his main traits, power, motivation or even the trope he's based on. The way it is related to him is so far-fetched and laughable that even the alias "The Dancer" fits him more.
If they added a sentence about his father death, they could've called him "The Orphan" as well, because it would make just as much sense as "The Trickster" does.
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@thefallenloser said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2027993#Comment_2027993
His name is his show name and describes how he tricked/deceived everyone he knew and how he is crafty with his trick blades.
Fits to me, but sure.
Extremely far-fetched. Extremely.
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@Northener1907 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2027341#Comment_2027341
After 3 gens if there 4 survs alive you already lost man. So deal with it lmao.
You need to kill min 1 2 surv before end game
At 3 gens I usually have either ended game when it doesn't matter or 3 survivors left (when this problem usually occurs) or I have 4 survivors left and in that case W+######### gamers is not my main problem.
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@VolantConch1719 said:
His name fits a lot better than some of the names we have in regards to his power. Let's just look at them all (at least the original ones).
Trapper - Places traps. The name works.
Wraith - Uses a bell to go invisible. Somewhat works.
Hillbilly - Uses a chainsaw to run around the map. Tell me, when you think of hillbillies, do people with chainsaws REALLY come to mind.
Nurse - Teleports through walls. By your logic, we should rename her as well because Nurse has nothing to do with her power.
Hag - Places traps down and teleports. Again, how does that connect to Hag?
Doctor - Electrocutes people. What is so Doctor-y about that?
Huntress - Throws hatchets while humming a lullaby. Only somewhat works.
Clown - Throughs drug bottles. You know, like Clowns are known to do.
Spirit - Temporarily goes invisible. The name works
Legion - Runs around and stabs people. The only thing that makes them a Legion is their lore and cosmetics.
Plague - Vomits on people. The name works.
Oni - Shifts between katana form and kanabo-wielding demon form, which oni's are known to do. The name works.
Deathslinger - A play on the word gunslinger, which he is. The name works.
Blight - Living pinball. Do I need to explain how thinking of the word Blight doesn't bring that image to mind.
Twins - There are two of them, and they are conjoined. The name works.
Trickster - Performs knife tricks. The name works.
By your own logic of "'trickster' doesn't fit what he's doing or anything at all" being your cause for changing his name, 7 of the 16 original Killers should have their names changed as well.
And before someone goes around and calls me a K-Pop fan for defending his name (because I'm sure someone will), my experience extends to MAYBE two songs (and that's only if K/DA actually counts), so no, I'm not a fan of the genre. I also believe he should have been called the Idol, but then, by OP's logic, he would need to have his name changed because it doesn't really describe what he's doing except in his lore, which is where he gets the name Trickster in the first place, from the dokkaebi trickster spirits.
Trickster works. Accept it.
Firstly, let me clear out why does "trickster" doesn't work. New killer is a musician, k-pop superstar, artist and a murderer who thinks that killing is an art. Nothing about him says "tricks". The only time such thing as "tricks" was mentioned was the beginning of his bio where his youth was described. The Trickster doesn't describe his persona, power or character.
You said that he "performs knife tricks" but that's wrong. He doesn't perform knife tricks, he just throws knives. At best you can call that "trick shots", but not tricks. Knife tricks is something you do when you flex with your butterfly knife flipping skills.
The ENTIRE point of the "alias" every killer has (at least the OG killers) is to shortly describe a character or give a clue of their persona, main trait or power. I'll even elaborate and say that the "alias" represents the "trope" the killer is made of.
"Trickster's" alias doesn't represent neither of things I mentioned above multiple times. "The Superstar" or "The Artist" are much better options since they shortly describe who the killer basically is.
Secondly, I'll explain why every single other killers' alias works:
- Trapper - name describes his power
- Wraith - name gives a clue what his power does - makes him invisible
- Hillbilly - name describes his character (a hillbilly)
- Nurse - name describes a trope this character is based on (nurse killer)
- Hag - name describes one of her main traits, knowledge of magic symbols that are usually known to witches (or hags). Also, it describes her appearance, since she does look like a hag.
- Doctor - name describes a trope this character is based on (doctor killer)
- Huntress - name describes multiple things about this character - it gives a vague clue of her power and describes her character (she's a hunter)
- Clown - name describes a trope this character is based on (clown killer)
- Spirit - name once again describes a trope this character is based on (something about japanese view on ghosts and vengeful spirits that also move very unpredictably and look pretty much like rin)
- Legion - name describes main trait of characters it unites (being a part of a "Legion" that was a defining thing in their lives) the worst name of a killer so far, but there's not really anything else that could be used to describe them.
- Plague - name describes a thing that lead character to what it is now, as well as it describes a new nature of a character. She is literally a human manifestation of the Plague.
- Oni - name describes the main trait of a character (a brute ogre demon)
- Deathslinger - as you said, wordplay on a gunslinger, name pretty much explains what his power is.
- Blight - name once again describes a thing this character became a manifestation of. Talbot Grimes is basically human manifestation of the Blight corruption and this corruption is now a defining thing in his character. If you read the lore before Descent Beyond release, you could even guess that the "Blight" would be just as aggressive and volatile as blight affected critters in the notes of 2018 event.
- Twins - name once again describes the main trait of a character and gives a huge clue on their power.
Then we have "The Trickster" whose name describes a minor fact in his bio that was immediately forgotten. This name has the least connection with the killer it is supposed to represent than literally any other name of any other killer in the game. This name sucks ass and the only reason it will not be change is because it is too late.
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Why does nobody talk about basement ghostface?
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2027764#Comment_2027764
We definitely won't, and people looking at this as an issue to 'solve' are wasting their breath, but that doesn't mean it's not a fair 'issue' to point out.
The scenario I mentioned, that I've encountered several times, nearly always happens with rank 1 body blocking clicky flashlight lynch mobs. They stand right in your face teabagging at the minimum safe distance, healing each other, working on gens, knowing they're untouchable because you're not playing Nurse or Spirit. And then people wonder why people play Spirit with Stridor....
There's also Blight, but I guess he'll just be next on chopping block, once people finally realise how strong he is and he'll be used as much as Nurse or Spirit
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@th3 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2027732#Comment_2027732
So they exploited running. Christ that’s cringe af. Not everything is a “tech” or an exploit. Maybe it’s an intended function for survivors to be able to run.
These forums are pepega
So you're saying there's nothing wrong in a situation where survivor can run in a straight line for ~30-40 seconds before killer finally catches up? Not even mentioning the situations where survivor just runs around a huge object where chase doesn't trigger and wins enormous amount of time without wasting any resources?
Just saying, the rate at which killer (usually 115%, 4,6 speed, the ones that suffer from W+shift thing) closes the gap between them and survivor is 0.6 meters per second. My math might be off, so I'll be glad if you prove me otherwise, but as far as I know that means it'll take 10 seconds for the killer to close the gap of 6 meters between them and survivor. You can do the rest of the math yourself. Oh, don't forget not to count bloodlust, because W+shift gamers are running outside of chase trigger range which is the main problem here, since bloodlust doesn't activate and doesn't prevent that kind of action.
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Too difficult.
Chases should just have a different trigger mechanic, so that it wouldn't take ages to close the gap between you can survivor if you're following right after them but too far away to trigger chase&initiate bloodlust.
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Wraith has to ring bell which gives survivors time to run away, so he's not very good as ambusher, while Ghostface attacks immediately once he's close enough.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2027341#Comment_2027341
Definitely an issue but I don't think there's any solution if you don't have high mobility or traps.
I've had cases where I'm stood at the only gen the survivors are interested in. Three of them are stood around me, just waiting for me to leave. They're all in different directions, at just the right distance that should I start to chase one of them, the other two can be back on the gen by the time I've made it to where that survivor WAS, let alone actually managed to gain any ground on them. If I change tack and return to the gen, they can be off it and back at their safe distance before I even reach the gen, and the survivor I originally went to chase is back too. If I actually commit to the chase, that gen is guaranteed to be repaired before I hook that survivor, IF I get to hook that survivor. It's an unwinnable scenario.
Yeah, exactly, no solution. You just have to accept that you lose a gen in that situation.
Now project that situation on 2, 3, 4&5 gens left.
I've seen a huge amount of 1k+ hours survivors who exploited W+Shift thing (gap between you closes basically at rate of 0.6/second which means it'll take 10 seconds to close gap of 10 meters, while they often start running at ~24+ meters distance between them and you) and I really couldn't do anything about it except trying to ambush them or catch them offguard pretending I'm going after somebody else, but it's pretty clear how rarely this would work.
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@Anniehere said:
Seriously, players complain about survivors who run?
So bottom line, we can not do anything to survive.
This is completely ridiculous.
Survivors are allowed to complain, why aren't killers?
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@Ivaldi said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2027288#Comment_2027288
Solution? Find a new target since they obviously aren't doing their objective now or play a killer that isnt Trapper, Doctor or Bubba.
3 gens left
Survivor sits on gen
The moment you head in their direction, they start performing shift+w strat
Once you choose another target they return to gen
3 other survivors do the exact same thing
What exactly is M1 killer supposed to do here?
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Tbh there's a serious problem when survivor starts running away when you're ~20 meters away and you can't really do anything about it as long as you're playing M1 killer because closing the gap takes a lot of time and that's not even the chase itself.
Never had this problem myself, since I either play survivor or Blight, but seeing how stupidly long it takes for killer to close distance between them and survivor running straight forward makes me glad I don't play M1 killers.
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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2025982#Comment_2025982
Sorry guess this one's the last reply out of sheer pity.
Mate. "Disapproved"? Are you sure that's the correct term? aha
Call it what you will; that's the third time you've used the same one-liner. Yikes.
Oh you won? Well done dad didn't even hear the fat lady sing. You're sooo good at this sweetie.
I'll remember you when spirit receives her next change. I'll let you know I was on the old ruin nerf train, first spirit nerf, mori nerf, PH nerf and recent undying nerf train. I tell you I have argued with people who struggle to argue just like yourself. I'd produce similar arguments on reddit and here. I must not know anything. The only other thing that hasn't changed yet is the noed rework train.
You know nothin' Jon Snow.
Good luck, I hope you get it your way.
You fleed because you lost =)
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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2025887#Comment_2025887
Alright this is last response then.
Nah pretty sure I brought a lot to discuss mate. Even with your vague answers at time, I can see Spirit's state means a lot to you. Each to their own. Still think she is unhealthy in current state.
A little annoyed with your snarky behaviour I was genuinely happy to have a discussion on spirit. You seem to have a premeditated response to everything I say though whether or not it actually answers the question.
Exactly, you think.
I disapproved all your arguments and you keep picking on words and doing other kinds of mental gymnastics. I won this discussion long ago.
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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2025582#Comment_2025582
You haven't given in an inch. And I'm stubborn.
This game is pioneering a genre so reliable statistics for balance is not kill rate. I agree. However, spirit is still performing better. In pick rate too.
What's the main argument? I'll address it next.
No it's not. I'm sorry but after thousands of hours I'm not thrilled by the killer running by anymore. Theres no way you can convince me otherwise there. I'm sure some players can get behind me on that.
You're still tracking with audio and downing with audio. Visuals are scratch marks too. You argued downside of phasing. There really isn't a downside. It's highly highly versatile whenever the survivor is near it healthy or injured. Naturally it's easier to track an injured player though.
I'm not twisting your words. I'm trying to address them. Name something I twisted and didn't say how it is. Dot point your main argument and I promise I'll directly answer. I do feel I'm not getting that same respect though. I am trying my hardest to take you seriously. Sorry if you took offense to anything wasn't my intent. Sorry.
Yeah so say no and leave it at that. No need to justify it. Was just an idea. You're really provoking me with that last line but I digress and will leave it.
You're so triggered, lol, calm down before contributing to the discussion
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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2025480#Comment_2025480
"Stats that show killrate in one of the most volatile games in every single stage of it are flawed by definition.
Survivors can rush 5 gens without a single hit, open gates and then get bloodwardened on last quater of EGC."
That's fine the outcome is still a win for killer with that scenario. Lots of pvp games can turn at any given moment. I think if there was a clear win condition then it would be better to analyse the data. Currently most killers are between 2-3 kills average red rank. That's more of a killer team win rather than a survivor team win in my book. Watch your use of the phrase 'by definition'. By definition of what? lol awkward phrasing.
I want keys nerfed too but that still currently a win for survivor team but yes that's not balanced.
"If survivor is playing correctly, he is fine 50% of the time against spirit playing correctly."
Where did you pull that stat from? aha
"Think outside of the box. Wasting time looking for stealthing survivor is also a distraction. If you combine stealth with chases, you'll give spirit a lot of headache and make her waste enough time. Especially if other 3 survivors are also not idiots thinking that chases is the only way to distract killer."
I'm aware that it's a distraction from the killer. That doesn't mean they're going to commit to searching. It begs the question: Why are you so against chase? You have this demeanour that you're a terrible player if you're good at chase. I don't get it.
"And I don't see the replayability in running in circles, so what? Stealth works on all killers, it just so happens that killers like Spirit, who lack tracking and are forced to quickly traverse between gens as well as being basically blind, have much less time to look for survivors, which makes stealth effective."
Stealth is a pretty clear cut very little micromanagement skill for survivor. That's why it's not replayable like chase. Many of the top killer content creators share an enjoyment out of chasing survivors. It's a huge part of the gameplay for killer and survivor. Stealth means not doing generators.
"You forgot to mention downsides, that are lack of vision of survivors. I guess you have no other arguments than mental gymnastics.."
Audio. You're tracking with audio. You see tall grass movement too. You're going to say walk then. You can still hear breathing. A good spirit player gets very accurate with this.
Please stop using your one liner 'mental gymnastics' and please stop bolding words. Keep it civil
How is that provocative? What? Just say no lol
>That's fine the outcome is still a win for killer with that scenario. Lots of pvp games can turn at any given moment. I think if there was a clear win condition then it would be better to analyse the data. Currently most killers are between 2-3 kills average red rank. That's more of a killer team win rather than a survivor team win in my book. Watch your use of the phrase 'by definition'. By definition of what? lol awkward phrasing.
And none assymetric pvp games use such kind of stats as a measure of things. You picked on my wording, minor moments but ignored the main argument - judging by kill rate in a game where earning a "kill" has less than nothing in common with something being strong or not is a wrong approach in the first place.
I didn't even mention another main reason why killrate stats are flawed - they don't consider disconnects (early DC = death sentence for other survivors), presence of SWF, items, addons and perks used and many other factors that greatly affect the outcome. All that Killrate stats show is: Killer, killrate and rank. Nothing else.
>Where did you pull that stat from? aha
From the same place Spirit haters pull "it's a guess" argument.
>I'm aware that it's a distraction from the killer. That doesn't mean they're going to commit to searching. It begs the question: Why are you so against chase? You have this demeanour that you're a terrible player if you're good at chase. I don't get it.
Yet another masterful evasion of addressing the main argument.
>Stealth is a pretty clear cut very little micromanagement skill for survivor. That's why it's not replayable like chase. Many of the top killer content creators share an enjoyment out of chasing survivors. It's a huge part of the gameplay for killer and survivor. Stealth means not doing generators.
Being thrilled by killer passing by is pretty replayable, people just don't give it a try, because it's much easier to them to wait until killer is right near them and then run away with SB and start a chase.
>Audio. You're tracking with audio. You see tall grass movement too. You're going to say walk then. You can still hear breathing. A good spirit player gets very accurate with this.
Tracking with audio really works when survivor is injured. When they are not, all other sounds are usually overwhelmed by whoosh sound, unless you turn on your volume to maximum, but in that case playing spirit is harmful for your ears.
>Please stop using your one liner 'mental gymnastics' and please stop bolding words. Keep it civil
I'm calling things their names. You twist my words, pick on awkward wording, create strawman arguments and avoid answering my main points. You are also trying to make it person by indirectly insulting me (calling me terrible player for example).
>How is that provocative? What? Just say no lol
Alright, I'm saying No. I'm not going to waste my time playing with a person who is too stubborn to accept any kind of arguments or facts that contradict his view and who will twist even the most unfavourable things for him in his favour and call it a win. That would be pretty worthless, you've yet to prove anything on words, why do you think you'll prove anything in action?
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@HealsBadMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2025495#Comment_2025495
Don't know why I bothered replying to a troll- have a nice day bro :)
Spend 5 minutes of your time studying the subject you flee from because you are incompetent at it =)
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@HealsBadMan said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2025435#Comment_2025435
I meant for baiting a hit- which is what DH was originally intended for. Ofc you can gain distance, and sometimes you'll get enough for the next pallet, but yeah its not as powerful once the Killer knows you have it.
You want real distance, use any other Exhaustion perk besides Head On.
>Ofc you can gain distance, and sometimes you'll get enough for the next pallet, but yeah its not as powerful once the Killer knows you have it.
You clearly have zero clue what "dh for distance" is.
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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2025448#Comment_2025448
In our debates context:
Guess - Making a decision without any audio/visual/technical codes to base your decision off.
Read - Making a decision based off the audio/visual/technical codes presented to you.
Educated guess - Making a guess that is decided from previous occurrences.
Added educated guess because it's relevent to spirit. I get some guesses are better than others when you watch survivor gameplay against spirit. However, it's still uninteractive and at the end of the day - a guess.
So the fact that Spirit stands still isn't an information to work with?
I could understand if there was nothing to tell you she's phasing, like she could channel her ability while walking and her husk would've continued moving after she started phasing so that there was not a single way to tell when she's likely phasing, but that's not the case. You already have a very obvious sign Spirit is very likely phasing which is the fact she stops moving. Even if it's just a stand-still mindgame, you can still play around it, unless you're one of those idiots who think running right in killer's direction is a smart idea in the first place, just by not taking "run in killer's direction" as an option.
Or you think that seeing killer's red stain and moving in opposite direction is a mindgame? That's not true.
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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2025395#Comment_2025395
Sorry reliably is not the correct word my bad. I mean counterplay that's not a guess. ie an actual read. For example, I saw Billy charge chainsaw at x time so I know I need to take a corner at time Y. Bubba started chainsawing at the hook at x time so I know by time Y I can go for the unhook because he will tantrum. Stuff like that. Something you can use visual/audio to know something is the most correct thing to do.
How are stats flawed? It's data. How BHVR uses stats is flawed I agree but it's data nonetheless. Don't discount it because it apparently shows good news to killer. It tells you how it is.
If spirit is using phase correctly you really don't have enough time to go for stealth. You're giving distance in the hope the spirit messes up. Someone has to take chase dude you can't spend the entire game hiding as your solution. I don't see the replayability in stealth and if it works on spirit why not do it on all the other killers besides the obvious (doctor, scratched mirror myers etc). See my point? Being able to phase at 172% movespeed is already a very powerful ability.
Noticed you were quick to ignore my proposition to scrim. See if I fall for you stealthing during chase. I highly doubt it.
Also,
"How are stats flawed? It's data. How BHVR uses stats is flawed I agree but it's data nonetheless. Don't discount it because it apparently shows good news to killer. It tells you how it is."
Stats that show killrate in one of the most volatile games in every single stage of it are flawed by definition.
Survivors can rush 5 gens without a single hit, open gates and then get bloodwardened on last quater of EGC.
Killer can get a perfect triangle on last gen, camp 1 survivor there and lose other 3 because they opened a hatch and escaped the situation that would've led to 4k otherwise.
Like I said, if you think otherwise, reconsider your opinion.
"If spirit is using phase correctly you really don't have enough time to go for stealth. You're giving distance in the hope the spirit messes up."
If survivor is playing correctly, he is fine 50% of the time against spirit playing correctly.
" Someone has to take chase dude you can't spend the entire game hiding as your solution"
Think outside of the box. Wasting time looking for stealthing survivor is also a distraction. If you combine stealth with chases, you'll give spirit a lot of headache and make her waste enough time. Especially if other 3 survivors are also not idiots thinking that chases is the only way to distract killer.
"I don't see the replayability in stealth and if it works on spirit why not do it on all the other killers"
And I don't see the replayability in running in circles, so what? Stealth works on all killers, it just so happens that killers like Spirit, who lack tracking and are forced to quickly traverse between gens as well as being basically blind, have much less time to look for survivors, which makes stealth effective.
" Being able to phase at 172% movespeed is already a very powerful ability."
You forgot to mention downsides, that are lack of vision of survivors. I guess you have no other arguments than mental gymnastics..
"Noticed you were quick to ignore my proposition to scrim. See if I fall for you stealthing during chase. I highly doubt it."
Why should I not ignore provocations?
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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2025395#Comment_2025395
Sorry reliably is not the correct word my bad. I mean counterplay that's not a guess. ie an actual read. For example, I saw Billy charge chainsaw at x time so I know I need to take a corner at time Y. Bubba started chainsawing at the hook at x time so I know by time Y I can go for the unhook because he will tantrum. Stuff like that. Something you can use visual/audio to know something is the most correct thing to do.
How are stats flawed? It's data. How BHVR uses stats is flawed I agree but it's data nonetheless. Don't discount it because it apparently shows good news to killer. It tells you how it is.
If spirit is using phase correctly you really don't have enough time to go for stealth. You're giving distance in the hope the spirit messes up. Someone has to take chase dude you can't spend the entire game hiding as your solution. I don't see the replayability in stealth and if it works on spirit why not do it on all the other killers besides the obvious (doctor, scratched mirror myers etc). See my point? Being able to phase at 172% movespeed is already a very powerful ability.
Noticed you were quick to ignore my proposition to scrim. See if I fall for you stealthing during chase. I highly doubt it.
Mind telling me the difference between "guess" and "read"?
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@HealsBadMan said:
Killers are already careful about not getting stunned (unless they want to w/perks like Nemesis or Spirit Fury), if they realize you have Smash Hit they're not gonna let you use it so easily. It's like Dead Hard or Head On- once you show it, a good Killer will almost never fall for it again in that match.
Oh no, I showed killer that I have DH, whatever will I do *keeps using DH to gain distance*
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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2024625#Comment_2024625
That's your subjective opinion but what my argument alludes to is statistics. Why does spirit perform well and better than others?
What region are you in? Do you want to have a scrim; I'll play spirit? I don't understand how spirit is balanced in your opinion. That pretty much means every killer needs to be buffed.
Last note, can you give me some examples where turning on your brain and do more than sticking to good tiles will reliably beat spirit? This means not making a guess. Don't give me an example of a guess. I can't count the amount of times I've gotten a free hit on spirit for an incorrect guess by a survivor.
reliably
what do you mean by reliably? You want something you can do that will work 100% of the time like you can against M1 killers? There's no such thing and that's very good thing about Spirit.
About your other points, that's what I was meaning by mental gymnastics. Statistics are flawed, if you think otherwise, then you should reconsider your point. If you do more than sticking to good tiles, you'll maybe remember you can make her lose you and spend time if you use stealth tactics to avoid spirits, just like you remember many other forgotten "drop chase" technicues that were widely used in 2016.
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@PlantCollector said:
Yeah, the bouncing blades as base kit would make him kinda unique between the ranged killers. It's really sad that you need an addon for that.
Also, in my opinion, the blade meter shouldn't go down when you leave a survivor. GF can also stack people 99% and use that to snowball later so why shouldn't he be able to do that aswell.
These 2 changes are the ones i really would love to see.
Yeah, survivors should just have an option to pull blades out.
For example, 2 seconds for each blade, so from 2 to 14 seconds. Every 2 seconds 1 blade disappears.
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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2024463#Comment_2024463
Point was throughout the age of this game, the idea of cat chasing mouse and earning your hits was a huge part of the replayability of this game.
When I play killer I have no ill will towards survivors using their 3rd person perspective to last longer in chase. I have no issue with having to force pallets by moving one direction in short loops.
As survivor I have no ill will towards the killer using the red stain in correct spots to force me to run the wrong direction and take a hit. I feel like if you remove red stain you're removing one of the most interactive parts of killer/survivor interactions.
Bloodlust is a little different because you can force yourself to take a longer chase to guarantee a hit even though you haven't necessarily outplayed the survivor. I fully get why it was originally introduced but in the bloodlust experiment it really showed how many tiles don't require bloodlust anymore. T1 is definitely needed for some stuff still but I digress.
Spirit release kind of turned this balance on its head with how much advantage extra you have on her compared to other killers. How do you keep the base game balanced with this killers kit as is in the game? The players frustration with her current state is firstly in the masses and secondly makes total sense. I cannot understand where you're coming from if you feel this killer is balanced currently. I will say I've played her a lot and I get she is great fun. I can't help but feel pity for some of the survivors I've versed with her cos I can tell they're good survivors that made an incorrect guess. It's that simple.
Spirit is balanced if you actually turn on your brain and do more than just sticking to windows and pallets.
No amount of mental gymnastics can prove otherwise.
If there was nothing, but boring cat and mouse where mouse wins if it is equally as good as cat, the game would be dead long ago.
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@Pulsar said:
Personally, I don't think she needs anything, but if anything, add passive phasing into her normal phasing.
You know how she blips in and out of existence when she's walking around? Do that, but make her blip in existence at a lower frequency when she phases. Make it, idk, once every 3 seconds you get a flash of her.
Doesn't ruin all mindgame potential but it does give Survivors an indication of where she is.
Why not, but let spirit know when this happens.
Maybe even add as an addon or basekit feature that she can also see survivors during that blip.
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@Toblerone007 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2022879#Comment_2022879
That is something set in stone since the game release. Killers move faster to compensate. What's changed?
I don't recall spirit being in the initial release.
I don't recall many things being in the initial release, so what?
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@REL1_C said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2024441#Comment_2024441
It doesn't say that in the description
Aragorn didn't wear pants.
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It wouldn't break through undetectable, so not really.
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@FrostySeal said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2023556#Comment_2023556
I don't really care too much about the standing still mindgame as it can be ignored in most situations, but if your looping a structure and the spirit starts standing still then your options become incredibly limited and it turns into a guessing game where the odds are stacked against you.
And really? Playing as spirit isn't even close to proper counterplay. Just spend money to learn how to counter the killer 10head! Yeah sure you may be able to predict what the spirit will do slightly better if they're okish but once again, against good spirits it all turns into a guessing game. Even good survivors struggle against spirit because how unpredictable she can be in a chase.
Judging by your previous posts it obvious that you have a bias for killer, and it's becoming clearer to me that I can't have a proper debate if your not willing to acknowledge my points. If your countering a spirit consistently in a chase, that's not you being good, that's the spirit being bad.
Just like playing against good survivors as m1 killer is having odds against you:
if you don't mindgame, you're forced to power through loops and lose the game.
if you mindgame, you're at disadvantage by definition, since survivor has 3rd person view and can see the direction you're looking at, while you don't have such privilege.
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@Zaytex said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2022879#Comment_2022879
I do kind of agree with this, but at the sane time survivors should still have SOME indication of what the spirit is doing, so it isn't 100% in her control of what happens.
Even if it just told the survivor through a change in music or whatever that she started phasing, it would give survivors something. Just a little bit of a notification would be nice.
Look at Nurse, she's superior to a Spirit but still tells the survivor when she's going to blink, so they can at least try something. Should be the same with Spirit.
Her indication is that she suddenly stands still.
It leaves you two options to consider: she's using power OR she's trying to pull off stand still mindgame.
In any case you just don't run in her direction and you're mostly fine.
She doesn't need dead giveaway for her ability, because in that case you could just move in a corner&crouch every time you'd know she cannot see you and would be winning chase every time.
That risk she isn't using her ability and can see what you're doing making going against her scary and intimidating. Making Spirit predictable would not only kill most of her potential and make her really boring.
Nurse's power can allow survivors to know what to do because she can spam her blinks every 5-6 seconds and literally teleport through solids, while Spirit has huge cooldown on her power and all her power does is that it makes her blind, invisible and fast.