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@SloppyKnockout said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1535433#Comment_1535433
It's not toxic "by design". The devs didn't create it to be toxic. Therefore, it's not toxic. You can not like it, and that's fine. Nobody likes it, but you not liking something doesn't make it toxic. By that logic, DS, the way it's used, is also toxic. Your logic is not only flawed, it's dead, buried, and covered in squirrel feces. Just stop. You're making yourself look silly.
Period.
There is never going to be a version of this where you are correct - and I'll keep slapping you down like a game of whack a mole.
Again, the design is toxic, that makes it toxic by design. A knife is sharp by design, that doesnt mean the people create it to be sharp.
And no, DS is an anti-removal perk. DS falls in the range of perks that can be used in a toxic manner, yet arent toxic by design. Even though I dont like DS to a point where I avoid using it. But I dont avoid it because I think if I used it I would be toxic to a killer. Pop goes the Weasel has the capability of being toxic too, but its not toxic to use it. Slugcamping builds and things like Ebony Mori however, the only reason to really use it is assuming the opponent is going to be toxic. Which in itself is toxic.
As a matter of fact, all you've brought to the table is simply "the devs created it the way it is" and "just because you dont like it doesnt mean its toxic". Nothing else. You havent created even any hypothetical where the use of such builds is not toxic, other than people using it just in case they might need it. But thats not using it, thats having something on the reserves just in case things go south.
So as long as you refuse to put in any counter argument, other than trying to push it aside, my logic remains solid. Basically it comes down to the analogy: The devs created guns, but didnt create gun regulations and people are shooting other people with the guns. You claim its fine, because the devs created the guns, and therefor the regulations arent needed and people killing each other is simply how the devs meant it to be.
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Thing is, you're at fault for considering a 4k is the true win condition. If survivors have to use a key to escape the game, then you won. You've gotten your pip, probably a kill or 2 too. It's your own goals that make the situation unfair.
Pallets are not exploited. Its up to you to notice whether you can mindgame the pallet or have to break it. As a killer you can see crows fly away from extremely far away and if thats too hard to do, you have a perk to teach you spot it too. Besides, breakable walls will be implemented retroactively at one point too. Giving killers that too. As for hooks going faster, actually, you do have that ability: get away from the hook and return. There, you went from a 60 second hookstage to a 3 second hookstage. Which is faster than any survivor can do gens.
The only problem with a key, is if survivors have been absolutely destroying you, they can still use it to ######### on you even more. That problem exists with more things. You as killer can ######### on survivors, and have Pop or Ruin ######### on them even more. Survivors dont have too many things that allow them to use offensively against a killer.
I do agree that the purple key should be a 1 man escape, the green key should get a buff in the amount of seconds it can be used and the pink key needs to have a reduced timer. But they are averagely balanced. Not perfect, but their requirements for usage is fair enough. This is why people are bitching about Ebony Mori especially, because it only has a use against the sweatiest of teams. But its 6x more common than both purple and pink keys combined. Let me repeat that, you get enough Ebony Mori's to permanently remove all keys in the game by killing everyone early on and still have leftovers. Not even including the fact that there are killer perks that counter keys.
Essentially, if you see a key, run Franklins 4head.
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@SloppyKnockout said:
Again - if it's in the game and being used as currently intended, it is not toxic. You not liking something doesn't make it toxic.
Period.
Again, if its toxic by design unless you have to go out of your way to not use it as intended, its uber toxic. You disagreeing with that doesnt make it not toxic.
Period.
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@SloppyKnockout said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1532605#Comment_1532605
Writing an essay doesn't make you right. It just means you take yourself too seriously.
You're still wrong. If it's in the game and being used as intended, it is not toxic. Period. No other answer is correct.
You not liking something does not make it toxic.
If its in the game, but the design is awful and the players know it, to a point where really good players avoid it because its 0 risk and all the rewards. Then using it, is toxic.
I mean, guns exist in the world, they are manufactured and in quite a lot of countries even given to civillians. Yet whenever they are used for the things they were designed to do, and you have a problem. Sure, you have people who use it healthily and only when they absolutely need it, which are pretty much perfectly analogous to the people who avoid using it unless they think they are up against the sweatiest of teams.
Basically, some things are guns, and a lot of people use them to shoot other people with and there are no regulations in place.
Thats why it toxic to use. Just because the devs dont care doesnt make that less true. There game is lacking regulation on toxic builds, while we do have laws for carrying arms and regulate it.
So unless you somehow start arguing on a lawless area with guns being distributed to every person and have everyone kill each other not to be toxic for society, in which case, sure, then we agree to disagree. I dont think your argument would hold any water.
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I like it, it needs a few more interactables and some of the breakable doors should simply not exist. There is a difference between doors being there to help break loops early on and completely destroying a loop. For example, the rooms with the window and breakable door dont always have a window, yet always a breakable door and breaking that door destroys any loopability when there isnt a window, and when there is a window, all you need is to break the door and lock em up.
So for survivors, there need to be more interactibles. For killers, there needs to be a way to go to the hallway on the opposite side without walking the long way round. Other than that, going from room to room, there is overal a nice amount of interactibles to loop long enough to be able to finish the final gen in a reasonable amount of time, just not enough interactibles to open up a gate within a reasonable time.
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@Zarathos said:
Community is too divided to have them arbitrate. The roles are to vastly different to have one side engage on what is an isn't fair. League used to have a system like this. People miss it but the reason they had to retire it was because some cases the community ruled guilty purely because the dude being judged was polish. The report read that the guy was being reported because hes polish and doesn't speak English. That why systems like this don't work. My advice is to improve compensation systems for dcs like right now we have abandoned scoring events for survivors. A small percentage like 10% post game could be awarded to players to encourage them to play on.
If you want to combat dcers put them in a queue full of other dcer's make it 5 games dc queue system. which refreshes on dc.This is assuming the system can read the difference between a killer dcing and all players dcing. Maybe a low priority queue for dcers could work. Plenty of ideas out there but the simplest fix for a lot of dc issues is encourage players to stick it out. If the situation looks dire give them a reason to stay. DBD has a very snowbally experience with either killer annihilating survivors or survivors blasting through the game at breakneck speeds. Some comeback mechanics for both sides would encourage less people to dc. Maybe hook states required to kill reduce as the gens begin to complete but survivors have increased gen repair speed as survivors die.
The current dcing is the result of a lot of DBD's frustration mechanics getting the better of them and just how hopeless a game can be once an ally or you got screwed early on by rng.
I agree that people being arbitrarily judged isnt good. And even though league back then actually had relatively good results, the amount of work they ended up having to do was more than it wasnt. Personally, I think both systems should be in play. And technically, not speaking english in an english community, while avoiding any usage of pings could be considered refusing to communicate with teammates(even though they also added in the option to mute your teammates, which is a bit counterproductive).
The problem with putting them in a seperate queue, right now, for obvious reasons, will probably end up making the situation worse. The voting system wouldnt ever be a permanent fix. However, it would yield overall better results than slapping a 5 minute punishment on everyone. And the whole point of the game is to reward a snowball, its just that some snowballs are too unstoppable. Its a bit mean for someone who has the upperhand to lose it because your upperhand ends up giving your opponents an edge over you. Which, ofcourse also is one of my reasons why bloodlust should be removed from the game, and simply only be implemented on some addons(like perma t1 myers or burger king myers, who actually are the only builds I can imagine that relies on bloodlust). Its just that with current measurements for the pipping system are simply too unbalanced. You have 1 survivor that can get mori'd within 2 minutes of the match because they ended up medium vaulting instead of fast vaulting against a billy, who would earn a depip and practically no bloodpoints.
I think the best thing that can happen to this game, is consider a downed survivor to be still in chase by the killer, with that chase ending with the survivor being hooked while any gens being done while on the hook would fall under the same catagorie as gens being done while being chased. That way, if a killer camps a survivor, that survivor could still earn a pip if their teammates do gens. If a killer slugcamps a survivor, that survivor could still earn a pip if their teammates do gens. That would fix like 49% of the reasons why survivors would want to dc. Which leads to the other 49%. Currently, if you're gonna depip anyway with only 2k bloodpoints because of a mori, you might aswell disconnect as soon as you get downed. So having a secondary measurement stick to compare your personal progress to the progress of other players to be an indication of if you were performing overaverage or underaverage would also give people not a reason to depip(a killer who mori's early in the game doesnt tend to have good progress, so to lose a pip in that situation, you would essentially have to be afk).
There are a lot of things that can be improved to actually discourage the reason to DC in game, but as things are currently, I think voting on a dc is the fairest implementation of the system. Worst case scenario: you get the same punishment you would have gotten with the regular dc penalty. So it literally can only get better.
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@WiredGamerOni said:
@Alakad, What Would Be The Point Of Unbreakable?
To get back up instead of leaving a match. Being slugged and being slugcamped are different things. Unbreakable helps with one, suiciding helps with the other.
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@Freki said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1528620#Comment_1528620
you seem like a GREAT developer then... go apply to become one of Behavior's dev's and show them HOW it should be by re-working the game as you wish and show them how much better it would be. You just don't understand and you keep trying to EXCUSE selfish acts and saying you should be able to have them. You are laughable. the reason the dc penalities were removed again is because of poor implementation with a way for people to GIVE others a disconnect penalty when they did not disconnect. this is called hacking, or EXPLOITING, with this they removed the hack or exploit in order to try and stop it from happening again. do you wish to be hacked? NO ONE DOES... do you wish to play a game? one where you can choose your build but say that other builds of your opponents are toxic? WHO ARE YOU to decide what is toxic for others? The difference between disconnection and your supposedly toxic builds are this
1) the builds are using in match functionality. you may not like it but it's possible that with constant influx of new things that people won't like other things.
2) Disconnection is using out of match functionality (either by going to a menu outside of the match or causing the pc to disconnect either by software or physical acts) this is against the game's policy.
3) your toxic builds that you are arguing should let you disconnect at will may not be fun to play against but not everyone has them every match. I personally have only run into one forever freddy in the last month. what happened? I died quickly, and then i went on to another match and that was a rank 1 huntress I've seen and he was good. I hated the match up because I know I'm not in his level of capability so I wonder why I was matched to him. doesn't matter though I died again and moved on to more matches.
My point is you are making it your life's mission to try and find away to circumvent the rules you yourself agreed to when you play the game each day and each match. Start living by the rules, and go on or don't that's up to you. If you feel you are special and should be allowed to break the rules of the game I put it to you that you don't want to play the game but more to let yourself become the idiot martyr of the game in all of this. I think you need to reconsider if you really want to play this game and suggest playing something else if you are so triggered by people playing with the in match tools they are given and then you use out of match functionality to leave when you feel you are wronged.
This is why dc penalties should exist, because you are not only loosing points and a pip (a reward actually IMHO) but you are also impacting 4 other players negatively for your selfishness. Either PLAY the game or DON'T but stop saying you should be able to dc willy nilly for any reason what so ever. Also you might think of it this way, if you are willing to accept your penalty for BREAKING the LAW of the game which you agree too then go ahead I don't care but i think the penalties are too light, because I'm tired of people like you deciding to make my game a ######### one by leaving using out of match functionality.
If you do not understand what in match functionality vs out of match functionality really is? then think of it this way. if you have to hit escape to bring up the main menu or some other menu that has no in match functionality then you are not using something in match thus your leave match function is an out of match function. I'll give you an example: in dead by daylight you get downed you go to being hooked you are offered in the game the chance to try to get off the hook but it might not work. but the command is there to do it. so is the struggle function offerened in the match. Now lets move to Call of Duty: you get downed but not killed just yet, there is a function that offeres you in the match to leave the match and give up by pressing and holding "C". now it's you're choice but again that is given to you without having to bring up a menu to get to that command which is taking you out of the match functionality.
your argument now is invalid because it does one thing and that is breaks the rules of the game you agreed to! should you not be punished for that?
"go apply to become one of Behavior's dev's and show them HOW it should be by re-working the game as you wish and show them how much better it would be"
Dont need to be a dev to do that, thats why we have forums like these, and discussions like these. But hey, thanks for supporting my plans. /s
"You just don't understand and you keep trying to EXCUSE selfish acts and saying you should be able to have them."
Not excusing them as they arent selfish. Just explaining the thoughts behind them and why DC's are pretty much neccesary as a way of exiting because there is a lack of forfeiting. As long as slug camping is a thing without a VANILLA way out, dc's will be a thing. Perks are not the answer to the abuse of vanilla mechanics. As long as vanilla mechanics will be abused, but not bannable, dc's in response to those mechanics will not be bannable.
"You are laughable. the reason the dc penalities were removed again is because of poor implementation with a way for people to GIVE others a disconnect penalty when they did not disconnect. this is called hacking, or EXPLOITING, with this they removed the hack or exploit in order to try and stop it from happening again"
Sure, then why is it still removed? Because last time I checked, its been over half a week and there have been 2 hotfixes to the game. Considering the penalty would be so important to matches, it would have been reimplemented as soon as possible. So no, considering all the evidence, there isnt really a reason to not have a penalty right now if it really mattered. But I guess that should be ignored because of the initial reason of removal?
"1) the builds are using in match functionality. you may not like it but it's possible that with constant influx of new things that people won't like other things."
Already put this in consideration, there are things I dont like in the game and things that are absolutely toxic no matter how you flip it. There are many problems in this game, especially certain combo's. Back in the day you had a lack of exhaustion, so you had machine gun sprints like sprintburst+lithe or sprintburst+balanced landing+lithe that were possible. Those builds were simply toxic because there was no way for the killer to ever catch up. Let alone that the cooldown was passive and not reliant on whether the survivor was running or not. When there is a lack of counterplay, or counterplay requires extremely specific circumstances to be countered, and the user knows that fully when entering a match, then its toxic. You could consider it even exploiting. Yet the amount of people claiming those specific builds are actually counterable or claiming they need those builds to win matches are too high. Even though you could slap an effect on those builds to no longer work complementary and they would still outperform most working builds. Just because they can be used in a match, doesnt mean they actually are fine.
"2) Disconnection is using out of match functionality (either by going to a menu outside of the match or causing the pc to disconnect either by software or physical acts) this is against the game's policy."
Actually, I'd conclude this is actually in match functionality. You can only access that menu inside a match and you can only leave the match within the game. Disconnecting through other means would be against game policy, but considering overheating computers, internet failures and power outages exists, this effectively is unmeasurable. Which, again, gives another reason as to why cumulative time penalties are not fair to place on a disconnect. So again, voting if done maliciously matters. If someone leaves in the middle of a vault, then its simply not done maliciously. Let alone that bad connections, thanks to vpn's, do exist, that also causes some people to disconnect out of their control. So again, I do not understand why you would vote it to be maliciously each time. Again, my point isnt that disconnecting shouldnt have a punishment, just that the current punishment keeps the game in a worse state than the lack of punishment. The punishment shouldnt be the default. Because more often than not, I see people disconnect at the weirdest times to actually disconnect. Even league of legends, a game with a (relatively) toxic community that also has a dc punishment, doesnt apply that punishment as soon as someone disconnects. Nor do they increase that punishment if they disconnect more than once within 72 hours. Because sometimes matchmaking ######### you over. They still punish you by not giving you any rewards, and if you were playing ranked, which again, this game is not, you lose ranked progression. DBD already has a base punishment that removes all bloodpoints earned and removes a pip. That alone is enough discouragement to not disconnect everytime you dont like the game for the vast majority of people. Having a dc penalty carry over through anything longer than 48 hours is simply ridiculous. Which, again, you're free to disagree with. But you cannot argue the dc penalty is fine as long as slug camping killers who try their hardest to make people eat a dc penalty is not a punishable offense.
"3) your toxic builds that you are arguing should let you disconnect at will may not be fun to play against but not everyone has them every match. I personally have only run into one forever freddy in the last month. what happened? I died quickly, and then i went on to another match and that was a rank 1 huntress I've seen and he was good. I hated the match up because I know I'm not in his level of capability so I wonder why I was matched to him. doesn't matter though I died again and moved on to more matches."
I agree, they dont happen every match. However, they happen often enough to be worse than the lack of penalties. The toxic builds I encounter at least once a day, the time I like to call Russian Hour(because, 99% of the time, the steam profile is russian, from a location I can only assume they would be required to use a VPN to even connect to the same server that I am connected to), almost every single killer you encounter is using a toxic build, with toxic measures. And without the dc penalty, I only tend to end up dc'ing to 1 of them per week. However, with the dc penalty in action, I literally cannot play that time of day, because every single match would be iri head huntress with the killer slugcamping. And you might think that Soul Guard and Unbreakable would help there, well, you're wrong. They just wait out the timer and hit you again. That's almost 2 hours long, with 12 matches total, at least 9 of those being slugged for 4 minutes. That is the norm with the punishment. Without the punishment, they refrain from using those builds because they know they would lose a survivor instantly and that bores them, so they tunnel instead. And at least tunneling has vanilla counterplay. Even if Stridor Spirit is practically impossible to counter.
"I think you need to reconsider if you really want to play this game and suggest playing something else if you are so triggered by people playing with the in match tools they are given and then you use out of match functionality to leave when you feel you are wronged."
Ah, so, you claim that the old machine gun sprints were fine to use? You claim that people running 4 old brand new parts was fine? Because they were playing by the rules and using tools they were given? Just because tools are in a game, doesnt mean they belong and using them makes you non-toxic. You could have a chainsaw in an operating room, that doesnt mean the surgeon can use the chainsaw and not be called a maniac. We are currently in a state where things are in a heavily grey area. Its extremely easy to claim they are using the tools, yet, exploiting gamebreaking combinations is bannable too. The old "forever mending legion" build is a great example of that too. Those were also simply tools that were working as intended at the time. But I am going to assume you're gonna use a different reasoning for that one because people got banned for it. Just because the devs are slow to work on certain things(I know they are going to address huntress soon, we just dont know when), doesnt mean its any less of an exploit. But if things like ebony mori iri head infantry belt huntress is just a tool that can be used, then so is disconnecting. And again, if it only happened as little as you claim it is, which it obviously isnt, then people wouldnt be disconnecting as much. And just because I dont like the community, especially not people who claim to know better just because its in the rules even though the devs themselves have endorsed it many times themselves whenever there was something wrong but they wouldnt fix it(dc penalties were removed against legion, they were removed when slugcamping became a thing, they are currently still removed because slugcamping started becoming a thing again, even though they were removed due to a hack earlier on). So if the devs endorse it on things that exist in the game that are essentially removing all the fun that they intended the game to have and made the game sour, then you can see why disconnects during Russian Hour skyrocket and no one is getting banned for doing so.
Besides, I could easily claim the same whenever there isnt a penalty in place. This isnt a competitive game. If disconnecting having an impactful penalty really mattered to you, I suggest playing an actual competitive game. DBD is intended to be more of a party thriller than a competitive game. Party games dont really do cumulative dc penalties.
"but you are also impacting 4 other players negatively for your selfishness. Either PLAY the game or DON'T but stop saying you should be able to dc willy nilly for any reason what so ever."
When 1 player is already negatively impacting a game to a point of being unplayable, a dc wont affect the other players negatively. But there are plenty of times where a DC positively impacted a game and only negatively impacted the person who negatively impacted the game. An example would be, again, a slug camping killer. Once the killer has the slug camp, they negatively impact 1 player immensely and often impact any other random player. DC'ing removes the feeling for saving from other random players, giving them a free focus on what to do, while also removing all the negative leverage the initial killer has. Which, would make your argument void as it positively impacts the game for 3 players. So you see, the game isnt as black and white as you claim it is. You play the game, or you dc when you cannot play the game. I'd say being slugged is incapability of playing the game. I'd say having a single survivor screwing over the entire team over and over again to a point where you might aswell be dead, but the killer refusing to kill you, is incapability of playing the game and would in fact be keeping the game hostage. As long as there are vanilla ways to make people incapable of playing the game, disconnecting isnt a negative impact by default.
And I am sure, by all your comments, that you think I dc plentiful. But no, I've dc'd twice this week. Once because I had to go anyway and miscalculated the length of a match, and once where I was slugcamped while playing with a 3man swf, and when I encountered them later they said they would have done the same and actually ended up escaping because I dc'd because they didnt need to worry about me anymore. I know when I am outmatched, and I endure boring builds all the same. I play many more games each week to a point where its not even 0.1% of my games that I end up disconnecting. The problem is, you're far too authoritarian on a party game and trying to make it have super strict black and white applications of the rules as if the game were competitive. It is not. Its an asymmetrical party thriller game. Even tournaments of this game are extremely hard to set up and they ban perks and offerings from being used because they are far too unbalanced in a tournament settign. That alone shows the rules cannot be without grey area's. And that alone shows that the dc penalty cannot be as strict as you want it to be. The negative impact that some players leave is minor, and the same players would have suicided on hook if they didnt dc. The dc I have been talking about is the only way out in a situation where you cannot suicide on hook. And I have seen you agree with that. The builds I have been describing often are non-existant when there is no dc penalty applied, but they are 10% of all the matches you can get on 1 day once there is. I would consider those builds exploits because they exploit the dc penalty system, and therefor I suggest the DC system to be voted for if done maliciously. Because its not black and white. You could add in a suicide option for when you're slugged, but even that would be a problem and people might aswell just disconnect. Another great option would simply be doing what they did for DBD Mobile and replace the disconnected person with an AI, because then it would remove the negative impact of a dc to other players. Which actually leads me to your final question:
"your argument now is invalid because it does one thing and that is breaks the rules of the game you agreed to! should you not be punished for that?"
No, because the game allows the opponent to remove the option to tap out and rewards the opponent for doing so. As long as that is in action, they cannot consider a disconnect to be an out of match functionality because it is part of the match. Its the only way to get out of a situation you cannot suicide from, and 4 minutes is simply too long of a time to wait to finally die and join another match. In some cases you could be halfway through another match in that same time. Since the situation of the game cannot allow the rules to apply black and white, it allows for the grey area to where a disconnect is usable without being punished for it. And you agree to this, just not to the extend that I do. Because like I said, the situations where even you would DC do not occur when there isnt a penalty in place. With the penalty in place, I've had 6 matches in a row where people were slug camping. Now, would you consider 30 minutes of being slug camped and being in matchmaking to be equalivant to playing dead by daylight? I dont think so. Yet also according to you, "they are using in match functionality" and thus not exploiting, even though in my opinion they are exploiting the existance of the dc penalty. And like I said, considering suicides when downed can be exploited easily too, I think the only legit way out of such a situation would be to disconnect and have the community say whether it was done maliciously or not. Giving everyone the risk of a penalty, but not the guarantee of one.
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@SloppyKnockout said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1525930#Comment_1525930
Didn't read beyond the first sentence, cause your opinion is invalidated by the fact that you're wrong.
People disconnect for ANYTHING. It has nothing to do with "Toxic builds", and even still there's no such thing as "Toxic builds". These are things in the game. Only PEOPLE can be toxic.
Furthermore - if people only disconnect for "toxic builds", tell me, why, literally every other game since the penalty has been disabled, has someone disconnected on first down, regardless of the build? Last night, it happened 9 times, in 3 hours. 4 of which were with PIG, one of which was with Clown, and another with Wraith.
A few minutes ago I went into a match as The Doctor, RNG gave me Haddonfield, and as soon as I hit the first static blast, ALL 4 SURVIVORS disconnected. Without even being hit. On the most survivor sided map in the game.
"No one would disconnect if there were no ubertoxic builds" though. What a load of crap, lol
Wrong, Ebony Mori is toxic by design:
- it requires very little effort to pull off 1 hook, and the individual survivor gets severely punished without having any counter.
- even in a 1v4, having a free instakill is more game affecting than instaheals(and they removed instaheals because they were "too punishing for killers"). Using them, by default, knowing their impact but ignoring that for personal pleasure, is toxic. So the use of any Ebony Mori by default is toxic.
- Let alone that there is a perk that has the same effect as an Ebony Mori, and you have to get 1 extra hook to kill everyone and it can be removed from the game by any survivor at any moment of the game. Meaning there is a nerfed version of an offering, that requires a perk slot by its own and is a removable perk, that is balanced use. So in what universe is using an Ebony Mori not toxic? Non-toxic players do not use Ebony Mori, period. At best they use it to scare people when they are playing a weaker killer, but even then its just to keep survivors on edge.
I could continue on others, like iri head huntress. Any slug camp build is toxic. Those all exist. Yes, players are toxic, but its the toxic build that gives away toxic players. Non-toxic players do not, I repeat, DO NOT use toxic builds. I've never seen someone like Otz run Iri Head Ebony Mori Huntress when he plays Huntress, the only time I've seen him do things like that was to show people why he doesnt run it.
And ever heard of hyperbole? If you did read, then you would see that later on I state the following:
"And ofcourse, you have people who abuse the lack of dc time penalty to avoid matches vs killers they do not like. However, that percentage is far lower than the amount of people who abuse the dc time penalty to torture survivors as much as they can. As long as killers act more toxic with the dc penalty in place than survivors dodge matches by dc'ing early in the match, the dc penalty can never be implemented the way it is now."
Just like your "every other game since the penalty has been disabled, has someone disconnected on first down, regardless of the build? Last night, it happened 9 times, in 3 hours. 4 of which were with PIG, one of which was with Clown, and another with Wraith." Is hyperbole, because I play killer too, and I have only encountered 1 dc on the first down after playing 7 hours of killer, using a build that some people would find terrifying. In fact, the only reason I can think off that you could have that many in such a short time was being matched up against people of a much lower rank. Because guess what? That 1 dc I had was from a yellow rank while im a red rank killer.
Point being, the penalty being in place is worse for the game than the penalty not existing. Sure, the penalty being in place might be an improvement for killer only players, but as someone who enjoys both roles roughly equally, the punishment is much, MUCH worse for the game overall. I mean, what is 9 dc's over 3 hours vs 6 killers slug camping as many people as possible over the course of 2 hours?
Assuming the average matchtime being 10 minutes, meaning 18 matches, with 72 survivors and 9 survivors disconnecting is at most 12,5% of matches being from anywhere between ruined to okay(lets not forget the fact that 1 survivor alive can screw over an entire team, meaning they are better off dead early game anyway), while you have 12 matches, 6 of which ruining the game for at least 1/4th of the players. Thats at least 12,5% of matches being bad. And the 12,5% is assuming the killer only is able to slug camp 1 survivor over the entire game. All they need is an iri head huntress, billy or bubba to get a second slug quite quick. That leaves only 2 people left to do gens while the other 2 will be angry at the killer and the other 2 survivors for them being downed, even though the other 2 survivors cannot possibly pick them up. Now, thats 4 people in the game that are affected by 1 player, while a dc doesnt neccesarily impacts the other 4 people. So even with just 1 person slug camped with the killer trying to force a dc penalty on a survivor will have a bad impact on everyone no matter what and is common enough to be game breaking.
So yes, the dc penalty is worse than the lack of dc penalty. Even though the lack of dc penalty is bad, the current dc penalty is worse. That was the entire point. And if you refuse to read the rest before ignorantly responding to a comment of mine, just dont leave a comment at all, because that makes you part of the problem.
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I gotta have 2 because they are pretty much equal in importance to the game, imo:
- Make Spirit more enjoyable to play against.(not neccesarily nerfing, but a slightly easier way of telling if she is phasing or not and disabling Stridor in Spirit's phasing mode, or even force Spirit out of phasing by blinding her husk, something other than just guess work)
- Have a double measurement for survivors: 1 for individual progress and 2 for progress relative to the rest of the alive team at the time of death.(this would make tunneling and being mori'd much less punishing to the individual, while still keeping the punishment for the rest of the team)
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@Freki said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1525930#Comment_1525930
1) if you dc and accept that you'll get a penalty then I have no issues with you disconnecting.
2) if i were in a situation where the PRESIDENT was harming others, I'd either look for a way to move to another country or let others stand up and bring down the law or decide to revolt. that's up to them.
3) the penalty system was removed because they didn't get it fixed right and TRU was given a 3 day (72 hour) dc penalty for NOT DCING. this is called a HACK, not the dc penalty is bad for the system.
4) This is a game by a company, their rules. and voting if something was malicious or not, I will always vote that it is why? because it caused the rest of the people more issues than it solved. it's called being selfish. DC PENALTIES are a part of all VS games with FEW exceptions. this game without the disconnect option would be easy to make it so that the disconnects were either network issues or intentional. there would be less abuse of it since it's not there. Honestly, DC's need to be punished harder than they are currently because of the abuse. i've seen dc's today a great deal. sorry you don't agree but to me that means you are a selfish person for not playing when you queue up. just find a different game becuase if you disconnect for any reason outside of game breaking bugs it's for you, not the "TEAM" no matter if you are killer or survivor.
- Well, generally thats a given anyway.
- And DC'ing is people revolting against builds that shouldnt exist in the game most of the time. Its a lot easier for killers to be toxic than it is for survivors to be toxic in the first place. So having builds that skyrockets toxicity to levels that are unmatched are the same as a president using a loophole in the rules. That was the point. You ignored the point and brushed it aside.
- It was more of both. Why do you think they removed the dc penalty in the first place? They added it because people dc'ing went out of control at one point. But they didnt work on reasons why people DC'd. Again, the percentage of people dc'ing maliciously is lower than the percentage of killers trying their hardest to make people dc when a penalty is in place. A survivor dc'ing might make the game harder for fellow survivors and make it less fun for a killer, but suiciding on first hook has the exact same effect. Adding in a dc penalty wont fix that issue. However, killers know that suiciding on first hook is a thing and there are plenty of killers who refuse to hook people. Killers have been claiming that suiciding on first hook should get a similar penalty to a dc as its essentially the same. Yet the same people endorse the acts of killers who constantly slug survivors and say "its their choice". Let alone that you have players who are like "I bought the game, I am free to do whatever the game allows me to do", which is even worse than any type of DC in the game, yet its not bannable. So all in all, as long as there is no suicide option for survivors that arent on the hook, the DC penalty is worse for the game. You can claim whatever you want and try to rectify that statement, but you would either be just one of many severely ignorant and oblivious killer mains who have no idea what is happening on the opposing side, or you're simply wrong.
- You could always vote, I'd expect killer mains to always vote anyway. But there are many, many cases where I have seen someone dc and not blame them. Survivors can be punished by the mistakes of a killer, killers cannot be punished by the mistakes of a survivor. If anyone is constantly punished for the mistakes a killer makes, they are free to dc. As long as behaviour doesnt reward a solo survivor for the mistakes of a killer, DC's will be a thing. Because DC'ing is the only way we can revolt against it.
Essentially, in the game currently, you get punished as a survivor if the killer tunnels you. You get punished as a survivor if the killer camps you. You get punished as a survivor if the killer hooks you in a deadzone even though you werent close. You get punished as a survivor if you get slugged. Survivors are meant to buy their teammates as much time as possible, yet they get punished if they do buy time. That does not make sense. This is why people DC, because it punishes the killers who make mistakes harder than they already did. It punishes the killer while minimally punishing the survivor.
Lets give a very clear example: I had a game where a killer camped me into second hookstage near a potential 3-gen, the survivors rushed all the other gens ofcourse because they couldnt save me for the time being. Afterwards, someone with BT came in to save me. The killer downed that person and then started chasing me again, downed me after waiting out the BT timer and then deadhooked me. So, I bought the entire team about 2 minutes time to finish generators while on the hook, after buying the team about 1 minute of being chased into a self-setting trap(which the killer didnt set himself, so it was literally pure RNG). I got chased the longest that game, I bought the most time that game, I was the reason that gens got fixed and I was the reason 3 people ended up escaping. Yet I got depipped with only 9k bloodpoints. I got punished for doing exactly what the game was designed to do. If he had slugged me and camped me, I would also have depipped with only 9k bloodpoints.
However, if I wasnt hooked and constantly chased, essentially the exact same set-up as being hooked and camped, I would have gained the same amount of bloodpoints, but I would have pipped. This is a problem in the design of the game. This is the loophole that allows many, MANY players to be labeled toxic, and essentially the loophole that allows the president to torture people and ordering them to not leave next to an exit door. I could have suicided on hook then and there, but no one really expects to be tunnelled after someone else has been downed right next to a hook. The only reason I didnt end up DC'ing was because at that point, it wouldnt be a punishment for the killer anymore. However, if he had slugged me instead of hooking me, I would have dc'd. DC'ing is a solution to a problem that the devs have refused to fix.
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@Raven014 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1493463#Comment_1493463
Well, you must have the eyes of an eagle, because most of the time they are just plain impossible to see... including trapper traps.
the only issues I had was with trapper traps and some totems(not all), and I didnt have eagle eyes, I just used 5 games to adapt to the new aura's and lower my brightness a bit. I never said it was great as they were, but they werent gamebreaking.
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@Freki said:
Ok if you disconnect for any reason that is outside of the game rules you incur a penalty. to disconnect because you are not having fun in a game is not a reason to disconnect. because people have decided that if you get camped, or a killer is camping another survivor, or they nodded at you, or shook their head at you or they slugged you, or they tunneled you or what ever damn reason you disconnect intentionally you are breaking the rules. if you do not like the game play get on a hook and do not struggle. This action avoids loss of points and emblems to that point as well as avoidance of penalties. This is usually very easy to do and takes VERY little time.
The reason the disconnect (leave match) option was given to you is because the devs realized that there might be something that is not planned that causes the game to not end. if you are stuck in the geometry, if you are stuck spectating the killer after being hooked then that is why it was there. since people abused this to the point that the devs put in an automated system to monitor for disconnects they had to apply it to any disconnect what so ever as the automated system will never be able to know if someone pulled a cable from their network or shut down networking on their computer to drop connection from someone that is lost because of their ISP dropping the network etc. it takes a trained eye to see how the data is lost and when it is lost and it is different in every case.
Do not think you are above the RULES of the game. if you can not abide by the RULES of the game you should be penalized for it. Honestly I would actually say the penalties that were in play before were too lenient. This is the fault of the people that abused this functionality and not the fault of the killer, or the survivor. This is another thing, Killers disconnecting for any reason other than that they are bugged and can not complete the game even with EGC then it is understandable to dc just as the survivors. Now since the abuse you have to take your lumps, if you get a 6 hour penalty on your 6th dc (don't know the exact time it is and how many dc's) and you dc'd because of being slugged, camped, didn't like the killer, didn't like the map, got angry that someone got a chest before you (5 instances) and suddenly you have a game breaking bug I don't care because you made your bed and it is time to lay in that bed. I will say the first time sure make it light but don't keep it light after the first TWO at most.
I also think it would be great for the devs to review the number of disconnects and if there is an unspecified number of disconnects (large enough to not catch people who are only dc'ing because of network issues etc) that you get a soft ban (say 3 days or a week) and then if it keeps up then a hard ban of permanent how ever many times is decided that the soft ban was applied to warrant thins. one thought is if you have the large soft ban then your account is reset and a marker is placed to note that you were soft banned and hot many times. Also if you do have internet that is a potato, perhaps you can get a dispensation that the devs will really review how many disconnects and why they happened. just thoughts.
you will never convince me that disconnecting is warranted without penalty should be back. ah well i'm going to be yelled at here, called names and what not I do not care!
The thing is, no one would disconnect if there were no ubertoxic builds. I mean, im gonna dc once I notice an ebony mori iri huntress, and you cant give me any reason not to dc. Its a toxic build, its boring and a waste of time, because either you're gonna be out of the match within a minute, or you're going to be missing 2 team mates within 2 minutes. Either way, there is no real way to counter it and those people are toxic as #########=
So tell me, if the law stated you're not allowed to harm or disobey the president, but the president used that law to torture you and say you are not allowed to leave. Would you still remain in place, let your president torture you to near death even though the exit door is right behind you? Ofcourse not. The rules are void if people abuse a loophole in the rules.
Besides, I was right, again. The dc penalty is worse for the game than the lack of dc penalty. And there is a base penalty anyway: if you dc, you depip and gain 0 bloodpoints. So the devs removed it, again.(at least, my latest 3 dc's against ubertoxic killers havent given me a penalty)
And ofcourse, you have people who abuse the lack of dc time penalty to avoid matches vs killers they do not like. However, that percentage is far lower than the amount of people who abuse the dc time penalty to torture survivors as much as they can. As long as killers act more toxic with the dc penalty in place than survivors dodge matches by dc'ing early in the match, the dc penalty can never be implemented the way it is now.
Again, like I said, I believe people should be able to vote if a dc was done maliciously or not. That would hold way more accurate results. I would vote against someone who dc's against a doctor just cus, but I wouldnt vote against someone who dc'd against ebony mori iri huntress for example.
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@axem said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1507618#Comment_1507618
Max ga eens slapen
nee
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@Sonrelight said:
Ofc only Killers get locked in, and players still deny BHVR isn't Survivors sided.
Lawl.
Have you seen the past year of patches? The argument to claim BHVR is killer sided is larger other than these small inconsistencies.
Yeah, most of the BHVR devs prefer playing survivor, but that doesnt mean they dont want scary, imposing killers. Bubba, theoretically, was fine. It's just that the required skill to play Bubba decently was so incredibly high that most killers considered him the worst killer pre-buff. So they buffed Bubba to a point where its practically impossible to dodge his chainsaw if the killer is decent at predicting. And they have been working on that quite some time. Yet they havent even touched Spirit, even though the exact opposite argument can be made: too little skill is required to use her.
I wouldnt say they side with any side in general. Killers, on average, are in a healthy state. Survivors, on average, are not. They either are too weak or require communication to defeat some killers. Not have the option to use communication to counter some killers, no, REQUIRE communication. They have balanced some killers around SWF so much that solo survivors do not stand a chance to enjoy the game. Which is why you see SWF more and more often, and solo survivors less and less often. So, untill solo survivors get buffed, I'd say killer mains have no rights to claim the BHVR devs are survivor sided. They put more thought into killers than into survivors as a whole already. The fact that every single killer in the game is viable against strong survivors would be proof of that. Some have an easy time running the most awful killer perks, others need super strong perks, but they are viable. Survivors? They pretty much are forced to run very strong perks if they want to last longer than 50 seconds in the match sometimes. There are very few survivor perks that, against current killers, can be considered viable. Why do you think you see DS so often. Because its a strong perk or because its literally the only way to not be removed from the game? And ofcourse people abuse it, just as people abuse iri heads and ebonies. That argument is moot. If something can be used to someone's advantage to ruin someone elses game, someone, somewhere, would use it that way.
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As for the post, I guess it would depend most on her potential abilities. She shouldnt be added just because it would be cool to have her in the roster. This isnt super smash bros(yet), not every cool character needs to be added. I dont really see a Medusa chasing a survivor, survivors should come to her instead, that's the general Medusa thing. Seducing people to death. I dont really see that happening in the way the game works currently.
Perhaps the devs could find a way to keep medusa like medusa, without just making a petrifying killer because she's a cool killer. Ofcourse that doesnt always work, hence old freddy being the worst killer ever to have existed. You do need some creative liberty, but not too creative, like current freddy, where his abilities barely resemble his character anymore other than generally being really strong mechanics.
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@MadLordJack said:
Maybe. Until you remember that her entire deal is turning people to stone for simply looking at her. Regardless of how balanced such a power would be for a killer, it'd be extremely frustrating to deal with. No-one likes getting stun locked or frozen, so imagine how people would react to getting petrified, even if it only happened once in every ten matches.
Unless the petrified to stone is the way for Medusa to "hook" a survivor. Just the same way PH has his cages. She could petrify someone she downed on the spot, then survivors would have to remove the petrification. Or it could be her finisher, where, if someone is dead on hook, she can petrify them to stone.
I mean, Pig was all about having everyone go through their own ordeal, with a very large chance of dying, while in the game, you boop her snoot or she gives you a hat(sometimes both, she can be demanding). GhostFace never calls a survivor before stalking them. Freddy, excluding his mori, doesnt really have anything Freddy about him other than the dreamworld just existing. No unending hallways in the dreamworld. No body sleeping somewhere in the real world while your dream body travels in the dream world. Its just his mori.
You can easily apply the same to Medusa. You just need a snake themed power with her chase finisher/killing ability being the petrification.
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@NekoGamerX said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1501902#Comment_1501902
you can force killers....
Not really, the only way to do that is to either absolutely outclass the killer, or just have the killer run the biggest anti-perks for his killer.
Besides, the killers do not suffer from teammates, nor do they suffer from extremely boring games. A sweaty 4 man optimal swf with OoO game is at least 50x more enjoyable than being slugged for 4 minutes. If I notice the killer has iri hatchets and ebony mori, im gonna suicide because thats more enjoyable than whats coming.
Let alone that OoO isnt even a commonly used perks, I've gone literal weeks without encountering one(not counting Lauries who have no other perks), the second most annoying thing, keys, arent really usable for 95% of the game, by the time it does affect the game, you should already be on 1k anyway. There isnt too much reasons for killers to want to leave the match in the first place. Which is why killer dc's in general are much lower than survivor dc's. This isnt including the people who DC as soon as they see something they dont like, its people who think the DC punishment is less punishing than staying in the match.
So yeah, technically, if you try your absolute hardest, you could force a killer to endure a match he wouldnt want to. But lets even look at those ones:
- gens done in 3 minutes, which is worth just standing afk till its over and opening the gates early on, no punishment on killer for doing that.
- survivors hidden through the map with perks that counter being spotted easily, which technically, can be bannable for survivors because they keep a killer hostage, even if they just want to play hide and seek.
That's it, thats pretty much all I can think off that could be forcing a killer to play a match he doesnt want to. The rest is easily endurable. The survivor side of that coin tho, is much, much worse. Ebony can ######### you over instantly. Instadown addons/killers can ######### you over extremely hard by constantly slugging and waiting for the absolute last second to mori you. "BuT iTs OnLy 4 mInUtEs" isnt an excuse if it happens at least once a week to the average player.
So yeah, you technically can force killers. But thats like saying "you can attack America" when a small middle eastern country gets innocently attacked and invaded by American forces and has no militia to attack them back. Just like saying "keys are bad too" when ebony mori is 5 times worse as to avoid ebony mori being reworked. Or like saying "DS needs balancing" when Pop is unreasonably much stronger than DS is. Or like saying "gen kicking exists" when gen regression is 5 times slower than repairs and you need to spend 2 full seconds kicking it, while survivors can instantly tap the gen while running past and stop it from regression.
You are part of the problem of this community by shifting a problem. Survivors suicide because some killer things are simply uncounterable if the killer has even the tiniest of brains. Survivors dont even come close to how unenjoyable some things in the game are. Spirit is another example, I consider her overpowered for the current meta. I dont think she is fully uncounterable. I dont think she is truly overpowered. But in her current state, compared to the current meta, she is. No single perkless vanilla survivor team comes even close to being able to win against a spirit, excluding spirits who are awful killers in general.
There are problems in this game, on both sides. But lets address the worst ones first. Suiciding on hook isnt terrible. Its not a dc, its the vanilla way to pre-emptively leave the match for whatever reason. It's not exactly great, but they do get punished with a depip and practically 0 bloodpoints. They dont need a timer on top of that.
longer rant than I expected, I guess sorry for that, but its just people like you who are like "but killer can have X problem" even though survivor problem Y is 1000x more common and 10x worse, who are a problem to discussions like these. You add nothing to the discussion, you ignore the argument made and think you're better for it.
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@OldHunterLight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1493342#Comment_1493342
And killers should participate in matches they don't want then? I can see your bias, because killers love 4 man swf with smol pp builds and OoO right? It is fun!!!!
The smol pp build isnt as smol pp as many people claim it to be tho. Its an annoyance at best. But yeah, sometimes there are games that killers simply dont care to finish. I've had a game where 3 generators popped at nearly the same time after only 50 seconds in the game(all toolboxes with BNP and extra charges) and just instantly quit as there was no way to 3-gen anymore. So yeah, there are tons of reasons for people to DC that everyone would agree would simply be a bad match. In most games you can forfeit a game easily, but DBD, you cant. The only way is DC, rush your death as a survivor or stand in a corner as a killer.
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@1800GENMEND said:
Survivors should not be forced to participate in a match where the killer refuses to play the game
Since survivors cannot disconnect from the game without consequences when a killer decides not to play the game but rather farms points without the intent of killing or slug survivors repeatedly without the intent of killing them, or AFK with the purpose of de-ranking, they should be able to discourage this type of behavior by making it bannable.
Depends, sometimes people just wanna farm a bit in a more fun way. Its not always fun as a killer to try and kill everyone. Sometimes its more fun to just fool around, discover things you werent aware off and generally just have a really goofy game. Killers win condition isnt really set in stone. A 4k can be an entity displeased. A 0K can be a merciless victory. So what is the killer win condition? It's whatever that killer wants to be their win condition. If its a bubba in the basement guarding his basement chest, then him keeping the chest closed is a win for him. If its an AFK myers who secretly is stalking you all the time you run in front of him, while killing you instantly, then it is him who won, you would have won if you ignored him. If its a killer who wants to farm bloodpoints, the killer wins by farming bloodpoints.
Same for survivors tho. I sometimes consider it a win if I am the only person who dies if the rest of the team escapes, and other times I consider it a win if I escape. And sometimes I consider it even a win if everyone ended up dead, but the killer won due to an endgame plottwist. DBD is a game where depending on what the players consider a win for themselves, everyone can win or lose in the same match.
Let alone that killers sometimes need to derank to practice a new killer without the match finishing within 4 minutes. The afk derank is purely the only way they can get some training done without matches being over too quickly. Before they simply could DC, without affecting survivors too much because all offerings and items get returned if the killer DC's. So they could derank quickly without punishment
Now, being AFK as a whole is already bannable if enough people care enough to send AFK reports, but most players are aware that if a killer is afk, its their only way to lose pips. While as a survivor, you can run around the killer or do all the gens without ever encountering the killer, and still depip. Or let yourself die on first hook ASAP. The only other way for killers to depip is to rush an ebony mori, and even then its pretty much not guaranteed because its incredibly easy as a killer to earn a black pip. I've had games where I played basement bubba for the memes, instadown 1 person and hook them because they entered my basement, have no one else enter and still magically get a black pip, because the survivors took too long to finish gens.
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@Raven014 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1483435#Comment_1483435
Have you seen the new auras on Ormond?
Yep, even played on Ormond as perma T1 myers. Still as effective as normal.
They might need to be slightly brighter, but they are overall better.
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@Jhoffmantx said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1483191#Comment_1483191
The auras are downright NON EXISTENT. I play killer with BBQ and Survivor with Bond and kindred. I have eyesight problems as it is and now with this new change it makes it where the colors blend into the map for me so I cannot see auras. I can see when a survivor first gets hooked after that nope. Behavior is ruining the game for me and ive been playing for 3 years now.
Eh, its extremely hard to spot smaller aura's. Like I said, they might wanna brighten up the aura's slightly or darken maps overall(which is the intention with the graphics update as far as we've seen). And yeah, it kinda sucks right now. But this change was a neccesary evil for right now.
As for the general intention. You're supposed to see auras worse the further they are. That makes the game harder in general and makes some very easy plays a lot harder. The old aura system allowed some groups to have someone running a rainbow map, run Open Handed, Dejavu, Streetwise and Detective's Hunch and add a Crystal Bead and then either use any Stamp or Jelly to increase the range or map duration even more, and you're without any totem within the first 2 minutes of the game. Let alone that all generators are pretty much available for them at all times, even if some gens are kinda hidden away on some maps.
Let alone that it allowed killers to instantly chase and tunnel that one survivor they hooked previously while using BBQ, even though that survivor is as far away from the killer as possible.
Trust me when I say this aura change is for the better of the game overall. Its not perfect, but a tiny bit brighter is all that is needed.
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@rd_dex said:
I can name a few thing you got to work with in a chase just from top of my head, you have stuff like Dead Hard, Spine Chill, Resilience, Lithe, Balanced Landing, Quick and Quiet. I don't feel like its a good idea to add any more obstacles as that's what you are refering to because if you are at least a decent survivor your don't need anything more then pallets and windows coupled with perks I mentioned above. Survivors are strong as is if you add more defence tools it would just become downright stupid.
Well, all those perks are pretty much useless if a chase lasts long enough to get boring. There are 2 ways that chases get boring: 1. the killer can down survivors too quickly including all perks. 2. the killer can never hit the survivors excluding all perks.
I think the way this should be about to go, since they are considering seperate rankings for individual killers, to have killer specific counter structures other than just regular structures that everyone knows. Some pallets could be replaced with doors against a huntress or deathslinger and still count as a stun if it hits her, we already have breakable doors, might aswell add one in. There are tons of possibilities that are not being explored and certain killers simply have too much of both map pressure and 1v1 capabilities that regular pallets and windows are actually in the killer's favor. Add into that that certain windows and pallets are already in the killer's favor, and you remove 70% of all interactions on the map because they are essentially useless.
So, if 70% of all obstacles essentially become useless, how can Dead Hard, Lithe, Quick and Quiet and the Speedvault Build be useful? If all obstacles are usable, then what use are the previously mentioned perks at all? The only way those perks work is if less than 40%-50% of interactables are useless against the killer. Any less, and the obstacles are all you need to loop the killer forever, any more and no matter what you run, you cant loop the killer for longer than 40 seconds.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1483321#Comment_1483321
It takes longer to stop, pick it up, then start running again. They will get smacked 9/10 if they do that in the middle of a chase.
Not if you've encountered players who've used a key so often that they know the exact timings. They lost 4 meters in distance by staying and grabbing the item, but still gain enough distance to have oppertunities to increase that distance even more.
The only reason 9/10 times they would be smacked again, is because 9/10 red ranks are still potatoes. I've had people who only had the game for 5 weeks to reach red ranks. Yet they are still too afraid to loop a killer. While I consider red ranks to be the people who show themselves on purpose because they know they can loop the killer for 2-3 gens. Which we all know isnt true, as there are red rank survivors who can get 2 people on dead hook before they even touched a generator.
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@slim0b said:
How about we merge no mither and OoO into one, the most toxic perk in the game with its fair share of drawbacks, it will still be bullcrap in swf tho so I think it should just go idk.
Nah, OoO already got an indirect nerf with the new Aura system. Not the most amazing one, but its a start. The biggest issue with OoO was that you could hide behind a generator and constantly give away the killer location while being fully safe from recieving an aura read yourself. Right now, you can look through generators, meaning you can always see the person who uses OoO even if they hide behind a gen.
That alone is quite a big deal. Seriously, if you encounter an OoO team again, just notice how easily you could tunnel the OoO user compared to before the nerf. And even killers who dont like tunneling: you do realize that OoO is a massive thorn in your side and needs to be removed from the game ASAP. You're free to kill any OoO user in any way you like. People who run OoO often tend to be aware that they might be facecamped.
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@grassdirtsky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1483423#Comment_1483423
Blindness is underrated, yeah i agree with that, i might start using the Pyramid Head's perk, that one that allows you to become undetectable after kicking a gen for these rare matches in which i go against OoO, the thing is, what about killers that don't have built-in undetectable or blindness addons? (Oni, Trapper, Spirit..) yeah, there are a few perks that give undetectable, Tinkerer, lasts 16 seconds after a gen reaches 70%, Pyramid Head's, gives (i think) 16 seconds after kicking a gen, cooldown of 80 seconds, deathslinger has one too, right? But i can't talk about that one, never used it and never went against anyone using it.
I think the problem is you can't do anything about OoO unless you are using the killers or perks that deny it, but as you said, you can't counter slugging without unbrekeable, can't counter tunneling without ds ans bt, so i don't know, i'd say it's a game design problem
Spirit already has a build in counter to OoO. In fact, I am fairly certain Spirit is the only killer that needs heavy nerfing. She counters so many perks and items by default that any perks or addons on her are overkill. Aura readings? Sorry, phasing. Exhaustion perks? Lemme phase. Borrowed Time? Oops, you werent in my Terror Radius when you unhooked your teammate, even though I was standing next to you. Adrenaline? *laughs in phasing* You could literally remove Spirit's ability to phase and still have a killer that can easily get kills.
Oni has his own version of OoO, that iri addon is truly underrated sometimes, not as underrated as before, but still really underrated. I mean, OoO is limited to the Terror Radius and Undetectable. Oni's addon can only be countered by letting someone die to get a Sole Survivor stack.
Trapper is pretty much the only killer I'd say to have a disadvantage against OoO. Hag too, if there are flashlights, but if there are none, survivors are forced to look for one if they want to disable your traps. Still giving Hag quite the advantage compared to Trapper. But even then, a clever Trapper could bait survivors into pretending he's placing down a trap to lure them in, then chase them and because they think its trapped, they will take the long routes rather than the shortcuts. But yeah, Trapper basically requires Third Seal against OoO users.
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@WheresTheGate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1483435#Comment_1483435
It's ok. I'm not trying to argue with you. As for the colorblind part just read through this forum. Color blind people left and right are talking about how hard this is for them to see. There are even lots of people that aren't color blind saying this is hard for them to see. I'm nowhere close to alone in this new change making auras nearly impossible to see unless I am very close.
I've played quite some games right now, and while it's slightly less visible, I actually think its better for the game in general at this moment in time. I mean, Aura readings give a LOT of information that is essentially free in most cases, or incredibly cheap in other cases. The only aura readings I would consider "expensive" are the ones that require the exit gates to be opened, and even those arent really terrible perks. Right now, aura readings are actually something you need to focus on if you want to gather the information, rather than a leasurely mouse sweep over the screen to get all the information without actually doing anything.
Let alone that you can now see through aura's aswell. Meaning you can no longer use a generator to hide behind as a survivor to get OoO without being spotted, nor can you use a generator to cover yourself from BBQ anymore. Which has a massive impact on the game in general. They might want to brighten up the outlines a teeny tiny bit just to make it slightly easier to read aura's, but I am actually impressed with the current aura's. It takes about 4-5 games to get used to them as survivor and about 6-8 games to get used to them as killer. It has improved my overall killrates because I get more information. Encountered an OoO squad and I didnt have to sweat as much as I normally do, because they are very easy to spot if they try and hide behind gens.
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@Ryuhi said:
Remember: colorblind accessibility would give an unfair advantage.
Kinda hard not to be petty about it when this was already an issue for ages that the community has made very apparent to the devs. now it's even worse?
well, everyone would be using colorblind mode if it gave an advantage, not making it unfair at all.
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@WheresTheGate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1483370#Comment_1483370
I will grant that there is new code and there is old code. The thing is at some point both the new code and the old code existed at the same time. The new code was in some sort of testing phase while the old code was still being used for those of us playing the game. BHVR could have chosen to make the necessary improvements (bigger and brighter auras) to the new code while they were still separate. That way when they replaced the old code they weren't replacing it with something that made their game unplayable for lots of people.
Agreed, they could have, or they might have been working on a colorblind mode and forgot to release it at the same time. Essentially crippling colorblind people.
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@WheresTheGate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1483191#Comment_1483191
As for the wait it out part..... I don't know. They've literally made it where I can not effectively play this game at the moment as I cannot see a critical aspect of it. If it's fixed fairly quickly maybe I come back. If it takes much longer they may lose a lot of people as it becomes easy to lose interest in something when you aren't doing it. Especially when you aren't doing it for a reason like this.
Oh, a 3 for 3. I am assuming you are colorblind if it affects you so much. Honestly, I dont really see the issue. The aura's still light up in a way that is differential to the normal way. So I dont see how colorblindness really affects that, perhaps I havent been on a map yet where I could see that it could be an issue for certain colorblindnesses, but so far I dont see an alarming issue with it. And as I am writing this, you send me another reply to my older one, so I'll ask you to wait for me to reply to your comments first, and comment to everything as a whole, to keep the conversations down here tidy and easy to navigate.
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@grassdirtsky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1464688#Comment_1464688
Yes, tunneling them is usually the best option, the problem is when they have DS to counter tunneling, and you have to sit there while the others do gens or let him get saved by his friends while you go to the gens, if they have more than one OoO and they are good then there isn't much you can do about it, which perks do you think counter OoO? I think the third seal is the only one that gives blindness, but i'm not sure, i believe killers don't use them because OoO is rare, and the third seal is just not good enough to use it every game in case you go against OoO, like Calm spirit.
Agreed, there isnt really a vanilla counter to OoO, but that isnt a bad thing. There is also no vanilla counter to being slugged, nor is there a vanilla counter against Pop.
However, as for things that could counter OoO, there are 2 main ways to it. Blindness and becoming Undetectable.
7 killers have an addon for blindness, some better than others, and Third Seal.
4 killers(including new billy) have an addon for becoming undetectable, 5 perks that allow becoming undetectable and 5 killers having a power that allows them to be undetectable.
Giving us a total of 11 out of 20 killers whose basekit(basekit is power+addons, anyone claiming addonless is basekit is deluded) includes a way to counter OoO in some way. Some much more effectively than others(considering some undetectable addons are kinda trash, all blindness addons are great in general).
So in theory, OoO has enough counters. It's just that blindness isnt as strong as it used to be back in the day, because most survivor aura reading perks have been nerfed to a point of not being meta and a point where everyone learns to play without aura readings, even though they are still quite strong.
But even without that, blindness is still a heavily underrated status effect. Having blindness applied to survivors in Lery's or The Game for some people means their teammates are essentially dead on hook, because survivors cant use the aura to find their direction, making a lot of survivors run around like headless chickens and their teammate on hook cannot use aura readings either to guide them to them if they are in call.
I've been using a new build with Myers(making him move as fast as cloaked wraith, its actually more powerful than I initially thought) while using an inside map and Third Seal. You'd be surprised how many people ended up having 2 hookstates in 1 hook because survivors couldnt find the hook in time.
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@WheresTheGate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1483191#Comment_1483191
I'm all for new and better graphics. New and better does not require making auras significantly smaller and changing their color to something that is practically impossible for people that have any level of color blindness to see.
It kinda does tho. The old mechanic was old code and interferes with new code, creating bugs. There are a lot of bugs out of the game simply by replacing the mechanic and removing the old code.
Ofcourse the way it looks now isnt great, but it can always be improved upon.
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@DragonMasterDarren said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1483191#Comment_1483191
mechanically they're better, visually they needed brightening up, they feel really off as they are currently
Well, lets be fair and assume its mainly us who are used to the old aura's and just need some time to accept and adjust to the new mechanics. The same happened with the EGC, I left 2-3 months before the EGC went live and came back when it was included. I had no idea what to do and just played like I did 2 years ago: opening the gate ASAP, triggering No One Left Behind(which used to be amazing) and be a healing support for other survivors who were still in the match. Ended up in me dying and not really having an idea how I could stop the killer from triggering the EGC(I thought the killer spotted me opening the gate and triggered the EGC himself at first, because people kinda described it to me as a killer mechanic), to a point of me stalking the killer, waiting for him to find something to trigger, only to still have the EGC working, finally looking up what the hell it was all about and ended up needing a week just to get adjusted and find out how many perks are terrible now because of things like the EGC, while other perks have only gotten buffed indirectly because of it. Like, Bloodwarden is now actually decently viable, back in those days it was just a meme and only used on Freddy because of his old power pretty much requiring an additional minute after the gates were opened.
The game changed a lot over time, its far from what it used to be when I started, and I dont expect things to remain the same.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1464788#Comment_1464788
In theory, they could pick it up right away. Then they'd get smacked and put on a hook, without an item.
Eventually they get smacked*. It takes 0.2 seconds to pick an item up, and 1.9 seconds for the killer to recover from a hit.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1465347#Comment_1465347
Like I said your theory came out to be false remember this game isnt like real life the description of lightborn flat out says resistance to flashlights increased by 80%.
Yeah, and guess how that is working out? By reducing the affected area by 80%.
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@MusicNerd_TC said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1482816#Comment_1482816
All in all, they listened to the community. Nobody wanted his basekit nerfed besides unskilled survivors, and only his add-ons needed nerfs. His basekit is basically the same now.
Nah, his basekit needed a nerf and a downside for overusage. I mean, its an instadown with no downsides. Literally every instadown either has a requirement or a downside to it. Iri heads? -4 hatchets. Myers and Ghostface? Needing to stalk for quite some time, THEN start a chase. Which is a lot more time and effort than Billy had. NOED? survivors will need to ignore totems for all 5 gens. Last time I checked, survivors tend to do totems when there is 1 generator left because the totems have practically no pressure anymore. Haunted Grounds? Hex totem needs to be cleansed. Bubba? Well, if you bumped into something, you would be stunned for quite some time, Billy wouldnt even be stunned for half the amount that Bubba was.
Literally every single instadown in the game had something that could be considered negative. Billy? Instadowns and easy map coverage. Downsides? He isnt even a 110% killer. If Billy were to be released today, he would have gotten an overheat mechanic and 110% movementspeed.
As long as Billy's dont revv forever around a structure with bloodlust 2-3 without a punishment(yes, this was a thing), then he's alright.
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@WheresTheGate said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/175609/bhvr-im-so-disapointed
You know what the real kicker is? They couldn't be bothered to fix all the bugs they already knew about, but they had time to create a brand new one. They gave us changes to the way auras look that not only weren't needed, but are now a new bug all on their own.
The aura's needed an update tho, the old system was outdated and couldnt support much variety. While the new aura readings are a bit buggy and need some attention, they are mechanically better. Which is what matters most. I mean, people want a better game right? Better graphics too right? Then expect a lot of updates that will come with bugs because they arent viable with older code. Just bite through the bad weeks. Why do you think they showed the new graphics in the anniversary announcement, but didnt even bring it live to the PTB? Because the old code cannot handle it.
So lets all be patient, not ######### about bugs too much. Just show them game breaking bugs that are consistent enough to affect at least 1 game per day so they can create a temporary fix. And by the time they adressed all the old killers and replaced the old code with more future proof code, we'll be out of this neccesary bad place. I mean, its either a bad period with new content, or the exact same content for months. And I am fairly certain people want new characters each year.
And if you think the community could last without updates: We've had a period where there wasnt any really interesting update for a few months, and while the bugs then werent too impactful, the game got boring and a ton of people left.
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Could be related to another bug where the perks shown in the game were actually the perks used on the previously used killer. Had a game where the killer had NOED and Sloppy Butcher, but the end game showed Ruin, Thana, Corrupt and Infectious.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1464747#Comment_1464747
Uh no it doesnt if you can show me video proof then yes.
Well, if I remember, have the time and mood to record it myself, then sure. But its not hard to recreate. Just get a Sport Flashlight with Focus Lens and see the difference yourself. Blindness works on amount of light entering, which is why long range flashes take longer than close range flashes. Having simply a smaller location where light enters means a regular beam would take longer.
But again, if you dont wanna try it out yourself, and I have both the time and the mood to get one of my friends to do some DBD science again, dont forget it in the first place and dont forget to hit record. Sure. I'll give video proof.
But theoretically that is how blinds work, and why lightborn technically increases the time it takes to get blinded because less light is hitting the total target area, because its smaller.
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@Rivyn said:
@Predated Few points I feel you made don't mesh up.
1) SWF doesn't need to work 'perfectly' together to dominate. That friend that told you where the totem was, even if it wasn't in the spot he thought, still gave you the general location. Unhook, spend thirty seconds looking, find it, pop it. Most totems spawn in the open, so it's not like it'll take long. So, if your bud hadn't told you, would you have found it in a similar time frame? You may, you may not. However, it would have been more on luck if you did. That's the issue with SWF. You don't need to have perfect teamwork. A simple 'hex that way' or 'trap by window' or 'killer moving off' can be enough to throw a match. Sure, I'll agree that altruism is often the downfall of less experienced SWF, but it's not them that leave the lasting impression.
2) 'Unbreakable and DS are only slightly powerful when applied together.' Do we play the same game? Both together can be game changers. DS allows survivors to do objectives without fear of hooking. Unbreakable allows them to counter slugging. How can that be 'slightly powerful?'
3) The problem I have with the killrate statistics, is it doesn't differentiate between ranks, instead taking the whole. A map with 55% kill rate, for instance. Are we talking new players, mid ranks, or high ranks? How many hook suicides? Who was farmed? Was somebody tunneled out early? A lot goes into the equation, yet the kill rate data just lumps it all in together. If it was broken down, I'd hazard to guess that data would change.
4) Your final paragraph is iffy. Survivors can indeed make many mistakes in a match. That's why they load out on second chance perks, so they can make said mistakes, and still keep going. Recently got unhooked, but want that gen? DS protects you. Still want that gen? No worries, you have Unbreakable. Pumped out the gens like crazy? Adrenaline gives you both a free health state and sprint burst! See your buddy being carried to a hook? Let's just give them BT knowing they'll body block for you so as not to receive punishment; and hey, BT is unlimited usage, so lets keep doing that!
My point is, perks have a lot to do with it. At higher ranks, a killer is playing on the survivors time card. A killer makes one bad loop, two gens pop. Survivors, again, can rely on perks to get them out of tough spots.
'If you are facing a team and you cant even get 2 kills, that's 100% on you not being skilled enough to defeat the team you were facing against. Doesnt have anything to do with perks...' This is just incredibly wrong, here. Or lack the experience, I don't know. Sure, you'll have bad matches out there, but to say that perks don't account for that is silly. DH can extend a chase to twice as long when used correctly, for instance. All the second chance perks forgive mistakes, and can even be weaponized. This goes back to my original point, it's killers that play by the survivors given time, and that time can be shortened when you take into account meta builds.
'...doesnt have anything to do with SWF. Even the sweatiest SWF can be beaten by any killer in the game.' Facepalmed at this. SWF gives a huge advantage, even if it's not always capitalized on. And the 'sweatiest SWF' will come out on top against the majority of the killer roster. There is a reason why Nurse, Spirit, Old Billy, and to a lesser extent, Freddy, are considered top of the class. Because they can manage the map, and keep even the best survivor players on their toes. Throw a Trapper against the best SWF, they'll be out the door in four minutes. Bubba? Plague? Deathslinger? Similar stories. Ignoring the impact SWF has is wrong.
Now, I do agree with you that survivors by themselves aren't overpowered. But there are certain variables that do tilt matches in their favor, whether capitalized upon or not.
"That friend that told you where the totem was, even if it wasn't in the spot he thought, still gave you the general location."
Ah yes, general locations, something thats already known for most players already and will practically be just as fast to locate as if you werent told the location. The biggest impact is that you know other people are going for that totem and thus spend less time wasted on travelling there. In fact, I tend to find totems faster based on killer behaviour than my teammates. If a killer pushes people away from a general location, without having hooked someone there or having a regressing generator there, there arent many reasons left for a killer to push people away from a location.
"However, it would have been more on luck if you did. That's the issue with SWF."
Kinda, like I said, killer behaviour is more telling than friends telling me. Yet, even with friends, it still is luck reliant unless they tell me exactly where it is. Lets say on average it would turn a 20% chance of finding the totem into 60%. However, as for luck depending things, the hatch is supposed to be luck depended, yet the killer has access to something thats very easy to pull off to take away any and all luck factors. Its supposed to be 60/40 yet any killer can turn that 60/40 into 100/0. SWF in general can decrease the odds without needing to use perks or items, yet, killer has the power to *fully remove* any luck factor by simply slugging. As long as things like slugging, camping and tunneling are practically uncounterable vanilla mechanics without using extremely strong survivor perks, SWF is not as big as a problem as killers claim it to be. Optimal SWF is a force to be reckoned with, agreed, but regular SWF's? They tend to be more favourable than a full random team, on average. Which was my point. The vast majority of SWF teams are better to face than a full random team. Full random teams dont have a weakness you can exploit and can be just as strong as any SWF team, while friends tend to protect the weaker links by tanking hits or hookstages.
"DS allows survivors to do objectives without fear of hooking. Unbreakable allows them to counter slugging."
If they do objectives, slug em. They might be able to pick themselves up, but they cant do objectives. Unbreakable isnt as strong as people think it is. Either that, or eat the DS if its still early game, rather a DS when there are 5 gens than when the gate is opened. Both are one and done deals. There are overall stronger perks to protect a specific person in the game, and perks that can decrease the length of games significantly if used properly. If DS and Unbreakable are one day no longer a decent combo, is the day that killers start bitching about the usage of relatively unused perks. So yeah, its not as strong as killers claim it to be. Its the strongest solo survivor combo by far, and it will significantly increase the lifespan of someone who otherwise would be dead, but thats it. Unbreakable doesnt mean you cant slug them, it only means they wont need someone else to pick them up and can be picked up faster(which rarely makes a difference, the oppertunity to pick someone up and the moment someone is healed 95% rarely happen at the same time).
Now as for the killrates, Suicides are not considered kills. Kills are anything that creates a skull. And yeah, it takes being farmed into account, because guess what? It happens in games, even high skilled players end up farming someone, because getting unhooked before getting in second stage is better to the team overall than getting 2 hook stages in 1 hook. Ofcourse there are downsides to it, depending on how early you unhook someone, but its significant enough to be included as it impacts the game for survivors immensely. Considering all maps have 55% killrate or more, Hawkins having a nearly 80% killrate because of very easy to access hooks on a small map. Even including all the factors, you would still expect a survivor sided map to be below 50%.
"BT is unlimited usage, so lets keep doing that!"
Only within a Terror Radius tho. People complain about BT even tho there are only 3 ways of it working. 1: killer is camping, or "patrolling"(which is a lie 99% of the time, as long as there is more than 0 generators left, staying close to a hook is not patrolling), 2: unhooking right after the killer turns around, which is a risk-reward play, and 3: luring the killer with you for a high risk high reward play that could very easily fail. Assuming the killer has an active Terror Radius. Having any form of undetectable or oblivious applied in the situation cancels them all out. Making BT weaker than DS conceptually, even though it can be infinitely repeated.
As for DS and Unbreakable, I mentioned before, its not as strong as killers claim it to be. The only reason they are hated so much, is because if there is a pesky survivor trying to ruin your fun, you know he/she will have DS and Unbreakable. That is the only reason I would consider DS Unbreakable to be too strong. But applied to the average game? It barely should impact your playstyle. At best it forces you to eat a 5 second stun or leave them slugged. I've never had a DS stun me when I didnt want it to and only 1 time that the DS allowed the survivor to crawl out unharmed, but I made the mistake of hooking a survivor who I already suspected to have DS too close to the gate without eating the DS first. I could have spend time hooking her as far away from a gate as possible, as you do have 50 meters you can walk before a survivor wiggles out.
As for Adrenaline, really? It requires not dying, having all 5 gens fixed or the hatch closed on you to work in the first place, only heals you 1 health state and gives you exhaustion, which means all other exhaustion perks are cancelled out. There is only 1 situation where that type of effect is a "second chance" and it's exactly at the moment you down a player with Adrenaline. Other than that, not really a second chance perk.
And while they could be a second chance for someone who ######### up, that doesnt mean they are second chance perks. In fact, blame the Beta killers for BT, DS and Unbreakable in the first place. But lets suddenly remove all those perks. Remove all "second chances". It would break the game. There are too many killers that are capable of easily tunneling and camping survivors without losing their map pressure too much. DS is working as a reason for killers to not rush a player out of the game, because it would make killers too strong. If you remove 1 player out of the game before 2 gens are fixed, you win as a killer. The game is balanced around 1v4 up untill about 2 generators left. Removing 1 player from the match before 3 gens are fixed is essentially giving killers a 100% win-rate and you might as well start the game with 3 players instead of 4. Perks like DS, Unbreakable and BT are NEEDED for killers to be balanced. Nerf 1 of them, and you break the game entirely, have all 4 survivors run them, and you give a killer a hard time at best. So what option would you pick? Have 1 player have relatively though times, or ruin the game for 4 people by making it practically a free win for killers, allowing only the 1% of the 1% of the 1% of survivors to be able to open up a gate against a killer who just played the game for 50 hours? I'd rather have 1% of killer matches to be super though, but beatable for killers, than making 99% of survivor games impossible.
"This is just incredibly wrong, here. Or lack the experience, I don't know. Sure, you'll have bad matches out there, but to say that perks don't account for that is silly. DH can extend a chase to twice as long when used correctly, for instance. All the second chance perks forgive mistakes, and can even be weaponized. This goes back to my original point, it's killers that play by the survivors given time, and that time can be shortened when you take into account meta builds."
I literally heavily implied that you would get a 2k if you were equally skilled as the survivor team as a whole, no matter their perks. Even including mistakes they made, even though mistakes are not fixable by perks, they either made the choice to let you chase them for DS, or they were unhooked against their will, both situations are not mistakes made by the survivor who ran DS. Let alone that 4x DS is equal in time as 1 Pop. Yet, I am fairly certain you would claim Pop is perfectly balanced. So how come that 4 perks that slow down the killer with 20 seconds total are more broken than a perk that removes 20 seconds of survivor progress everytime you hook someone? If DS needs a nerf, then Pop needs a nerf. They are mirror perks. If Pop is balanced, then DS is balanced. Unbreakable counters something that literally is a vanilla mechanic. No single gamer should be forced to lay on the ground for 4 minutes because no one picks him/her up. If Unbreakable gets a nerf, then slugging needs a nerf. BT counters camping in general and gives the unhooked survivor a larger range of running before they go down again. In combination, those perks are strong, but all those mechanics that killers have, are incredibly strong too. If you remove survivor combo's like DS and Unbreakable at this point, then campers shouldnt be able to down survivors while camping. Same type of logic. I tend to defend the ######### that DS and Unbreakable get, because killers forget why the perks are designed the way they are in the first place. They often are like "yeah, but 60 seconds is too long", well, is it? BT is 15 seconds, and you already have killers tunneling them and counting the timer to go down before they hit them again, the 60 seconds is a deterrent. Personally, if its super early in the game, I see the 60 seconds as a timer that I have to pick the survivor up. Having any DS burned before I plan out a 3-gen is a massive gamechanger. And yeah, it can be weaponized. But the only way it can be weaponized, is for the killer to be ignorant of the perks that survivors carry. Which is a lack of skill. If you cant figure out someone has DS and pick them up and get the DS, you fully deserve that DS stun because you made the mistake. There are 4 people to chase in a game, its practically impossible for you to have someone with DS be unhooked, down all 4 of them(randomly) and hook everyone but the unhooked survivor first, to still get DS'd. The only way for that to happen is if they were standing still, even if you had NOED and Bloodthirst T3 Nurse and Agitation. To get a surprise DS pre-EGC is to ignore the games factors. And there are many, but not infinitely many. During EGC, its a different story, but you really should have eaten those DS's when you had the chance. So no, its not wrong, its not lack of experience. Perks do not determine the outcome of the game. They can have a massive impact on how the game is played, and force you to play differently than you intended to play, but it does not change the outcome of the game. If you have higher skill, 2-4k's is the outcome depending on the existance of keys in the game, if you have lower skills, 0-3k is the outcome depending on the usage of Ivory Mori(all you need early game to change the outcome of the game from a loss to a win).
"Facepalmed at this. SWF gives a huge advantage, even if it's not always capitalized on. And the 'sweatiest SWF' will come out on top against the majority of the killer roster. There is a reason why Nurse, Spirit, Old Billy, and to a lesser extent, Freddy, are considered top of the class. Because they can manage the map, and keep even the best survivor players on their toes. Throw a Trapper against the best SWF, they'll be out the door in four minutes. Bubba? Plague? Deathslinger? Similar stories. Ignoring the impact SWF has is wrong."
Well, all I need to disprove this, is reference you to Truetalent's series of "Bubba is underrated". Not all games in there are against the highest of tiers of Survivors, but no SWF is without a weak link. I'm even confident to say that an SWF is only as good as their weakest player. Take down the weakest player and hook him as bait, and even the most optimal SWF will be disrupted if you ever seem to go after their weakest link. Optimal SWF knows the power of 4 survivors, and knows the difference in power when there is only 3 survivors. And even the strongest survivor will be weak in a 1v1. So against an SWF, optimally, you would want to work your way up fast. And yes, even Bubba can take them on. My point wasnt that they can be beaten by any killer. Not that they can be beaten by any player who plays killer.
"There is a reason why Nurse, Spirit, Old Billy, and to a lesser extent, Freddy, are considered top of the class."
Picked this one out, adding in Huntress too, and they are top of the class because they essentially allow people to lay back as a killer while survivors are forced to play focussed. Which makes them a problem, because like I said before: remove 1 survivor from the game early on, and the killer wins the game. No 3 man team can fix 4 generators against a killer unless the killer ######### up. No 3 man team can fix 3 generators and get all out alive. No 3 man team can fix 2 gens with at least swapping out hooks and be very likely on dead hook by the time the exit gates are powered. This fact alone, is why I consider keys to be quite balanced in the current state of the game and on the level of Ivory Mori, and why Ebony Mori is pretty much the only broken thing in the game. Any killer can kill a survivor early on, or at least have them on dead hook early on. Once you remove 1 survivor from the game, the cards fall down.
As for why I called them a problem, well, as the game originally was designed, killers were under a lot of pressure and try to kill 1 survivor as soon as possible, making the game easier and easier for them as time goes by, while for survivors it starts out easy and gets harder and harder as time goes by. Having a killer that is laid back from the start of the game, makes the game nigh-impossible in the end. Which is why Spirit is as hated as she is, because it allows people who cant escape green ranks with a Trapper, to easily reach rank 1, only to have them complain about survivors and claim how balanced Spirit is. Even though people who reached Red Ranks without Spirit, will practically refuse to play Spirit because there is no challenge left in there. Same with Doctor mains tho. I purposely depipped myself because I reached Red Ranks as a Doctor, and while I could handle my own with most killers, I didnt consider myself Red Rank level of killer yet. I am now almost back at red ranks while only having played Demogorgon(who I consider to be the worst killer, mechanically seen) with non-meta perks and am quite confidently say that I earned the red rank.
And yes, I acknowledge the impact SWF has on the gameplay, however, I also claim that SWF has no impact on the outcome of the game. If you win against an SWF, you would win against them as if they had 0 communication. The only difference is their playstyle, which, unless they are optimal players, are in the killer's favor. My point was that SWF itself isnt a problem that can change the outcome of a game. It changes the way the game is played.
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@DBD_Noobinoob said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1451824#Comment_1451824
What do you personally consider a win for killers / survivors?
Pip loss is a loss, pip gain is a win, double pip is practically destroying the other side. Which fits the outcome of games, fits most people's expectations of a win, because 9/10 times, the only time you get a double pip is having 3k's or more.
Black pips dont really fit in, but originally, black pips didnt exist. Black pips are the biggest reason why so many players are red rank when they shouldnt be. So I just see those as a participation medal. You did enough to not lose a pip in a game you lost.
Now, Mori's impact the outcome extremely for solo survivors, which is why I say Mori's are 10 times the problem that Keys are, even while considering myself to be an above average killer. Key's are only too strong if you consider a 4k to be a win(but lets be honest, if 4 survivors can fix all 5 gens without anyone being dead, you either lost or rely on late game perks too much). But you can easily gain a pip while forcing survivors to get out, but you cant even get a black pip when you're being Mori'd early game.
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@Pulsar said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1451653#Comment_1451653
Getting blinded at those points doesn't matter at all. You can still hear where they are. If they blind you at a pallet or a vault, they just lost a massive amount of distance.
Assuming the killer is good at triangulation, there arent any scuffed obstructions in the game that could block you even though it shouldnt, and there is practically only an open space, then yeah, getting blinded doesnt matter.
So, its either survivors losing distance/getting hit because of quite niche circumstances, or getting a net gain in distance. Which IMO is more significant than forcing survivors to drop their items that they could theoretically pick up straight away.
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@azame said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1451385#Comment_1451385
All fast blinding addons have been gone for about 3 years so what are you talking about?
I wasnt talking about blindspeed. Lightborn doesnt slow down the speed of the blind, it has a smaller space you can blind. So if you aim next to that space, the blind goes much slower.
Aka, if you know exactly where that spot is and aim right for it with a narrow beam, you have the exact same blinding speed as if the killer were not using Lightborn.
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@grassdirtsky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1451843#Comment_1451843
OoO in swf makes everyone know where you are and what you are doing every second, perks like BBQ show the aura of survivors for 4 seconds after hooking a survivor, not really comparable.
BBQ doesnt really have a downside. OoO gives your aura away at all times that you look at the killer. The smaller your TR is, the more in favor OoO is for you.
If OoO only showed the killers aura in specific instances, the killer shouldnt be shown the survivor and it shouldnt be bound by the TR. However, all those instances are pretty much taken already: survivor getting hooked? Kindred. Survivor being downed? See everyone else with Better Together. Someone else being injured? Empathy. The only other aura reading perk like OoO is Babysitter, and that one is too short to be useful for an aura read.
Let alone that Killer is the side that has the most impact on map pressure. Having any survivor aura read for longer than 5 seconds would be broken on Killer. In fact, the downside on OoO is distance. It used to be much less of a threat because maps were larger, but now maps are much smaller, it essentially can see the killer at all times. But there are powerful counters to this powerful perk. Like rushing them out of the game, I mean, they shouldnt complain about that, leaving them in game is a massive downside to your game, so getting them out ASAP is almost a given. Then there are extremely powerful perks that can counter OoO, yet killers appearantly find them weak because OoO doesnt happen that often. So what is it? OoO is too strong and used too often, yet somehow is used too little to actually counter it using perks.
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@SurviveByDaylight said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1451332#Comment_1451332
Hell no survivors are not overpowered. After playing both sides It’s safe to say it’s too ez to get kills. I find the hit boxes slanted in killers favor heavily!
That kinda was the whole point of my post. All things said in quotations were things the other guy said. I literally end it with "basically, what I am trying to say, survivors are not overpowered"
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@Mozzie said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1451673#Comment_1451673
It completely crushes Freddy once the survivor is asleep and other killers who make survivors suffer from the oblivious status. Which is really sad because the oblivious status effect is probably the most funnest for a survivor to experience.
Yes and no, Freddy has massive anti-looping capabilities, which are excessively strong because of OoO.
As for funnest, not really. Its fun for killer, but its annoying for survivors since it gives a bad killer the same advantage that a good killer would have by skillfully moonwalking. It essentially takes away any skill. It's only fun if a killer actually uses it to jumpscare you, but most people use it as an advantage in chases, which is boring AF. It's why I do enjoy Tinkerer, because it allows me to wait around a corner and jumpscare survivors, but why I dont enjoy Beast of Prey. I could use Tinkerer in a similar matter in a chase as Beast of Prey, but thats boring.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1451687#Comment_1451687
IMO nah, the whole concept of being able to see the killer across the map is busted in itself. Needs rework IMO. No downside could negate to the amount of info it provides.
Well, the downside that the killer can constantly see you too, with the exception of you hiding behind generators or using Sole Survivor. Let alone that larger TR's are sometimes profitable for killers. Personally, I'd show the killer when they are being looked at with OoO without them knowing they are being looked at, so killers like Trapper know when they can or cant place a trap.
I mean, otherwise you could claim that BBQ gives killer too much information, that Rancor gives killer too much information. That Discordance gives the killer too much information. There are similar killer perks that have practically no downside and give tons of information. OoO allows the killer free information on 1 survivor constantly. For solo survivors, OoO is balanced. So OoO specifically isnt neccesarily the problem.
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@Dwinchester said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1451332#Comment_1451332
Yes, but you can't pressure 4 people at once, and with garbage gen regression perks, hit and run doesn't work. You need hooks for pop, but if you commit, you lose. Ain't that a #########?
No, the Fov isn't even close to a normal fps. You literally can't see a survivor that's right in front of you. With a hex, you don't want them to find it and every survivor with more than 100 hours knows every totem spawn.
You're seriously going with swf isnt OP because people can't communicate well?
Chase music can not be modified, look it up.
Ds, unbreakable, and soul guard can't be countered when used together.
2k is a loss at red ranks, if the ranking system agreed with bhvr, it wouldnt be an issue.
Kobe always seems to work when killer is doing well, so no, I don't buy a flat 4%.
The way certain maps are designed, the hook is within 20m, but can't be reached, see haddonfield.
There was a thread today with a rank 19 going against red rank survivors, call bs all you want, it happens.
Correct, but you can pressure area's enough for survivors to not return to that location for some time. This is why giving up a chase can be beneficial to killers.
It is normal. Killers are much taller than survivors, and dont claim you can see your belly button when looking forward. Because that is where survivors are. If they take half a step back, you can see them. And no, totem spawns are more hidden, have more spawning places and new spawning locations are added over time. And while you dont want a hex totem to be gone, the design of hex totems is for survivors to be off a generator looking for it. So you want them to search for it as long as possible while you hook other people too. Once 1 person found it, its practically gone and it did its job. Same reason why wiggling isnt meant for survivors to get out, but its only designed to not bring survivors to the basement unless it is within range. As survivor you would want to wiggle, even though you cant get out. So whether you want it or not. Hex totems are there to distract survivors from generators. If they dont, they get punished for every second they allow the hex to work.
Yes, just as guns are not the ones who kill people, even though they obviously can. Change my mind.
Music and sounds can be modified, but not specific in-game sounds in aspect of other things. Aka, if you want to lower chase music, you need to lower breathing sounds too. But you do realize sounds can amplify and cancel each other out right? Making sound louder makes the amplifications larger, meaning that if you should be able to hear someone entering a locker nearby while in chase, but you dont, there are 1 options: 1, you have hearing damage. 2, your sounds are too loud/too soft. That was my point.
It can, eat the DS early game. That is the counter. Just as the counter to NOED is to cleanse all totems. As for Unbreakable and Soul Guard, well, yeah, but thats because slugging is so incredibly powerful. So if you down someone instantly after being picked up, you wasted SO much time from that survivor. It's not strong. DS and Unbreakable are strong EGC perks, but outside that, they are quite weak. Sure, annoying, but weak.
No, 2k is not a loss, that is your own bullshit definition. We all saw what happened to the game when kills were actually related to ranking, and the game was boring as #########. And even back then, a 2k was considered gaining a pip(aka a win) and a 3.5k was required for a double pip. Your definition comes from whiney killer mains who think that the average game should have a 3k. Which it isnt, no dev has stated that, the game doesnt state that, it is a headcannon win. And in fact, technically, as killer, you could claim whatever you want to be as a win. You'd be wrong, but you could. I could say that hitting survivors 0 times, is a win. Meaning I could win with a 0k. You would disagree, but its no different from your deluded definition.
Oh, thats bias. I've had all 4 survivors being hooked in the first 2 mins of the game, and had none of them being able to Kobe. So yes, it is a flat 4%. However, statistically, you're guaranteed to see all survivors being able to unhook themselves first try without any aid. Your personal experience has no influence on what is in the game, and it is a flat 4%.
You can reach all hooks on Haddonfield in time, with survivors bodyblocking you. Even if they are upstairs in Strode Residence. There is ALWAYS a hook right outside one of the doors, and a second one within reach. 50 meters is a LOT of distance you can carry a survivor, and a lot of killers underestimate how far they can carry a survivor. I've never had a survivor escape my grasp without all 3 other survivors intervening and sabotaging a hook. Which is 100% fair. They risk multiple downs to safe 1 person. High risk, high reward.
Oh yeah, it does, but that was not your claim, and not my point. Your claim was that matchmaking was survivor sided, its not. I've seen a rank 17 solo survivor in a red rank match. I've seen a green rank swf+solo me against a rank 1 killer. Matchmaking IS NOT survivor sided. It is bad, but it doesnt side with anyone. You may think so, because you're biased as #########.
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Simple answer:
Dead hard requires less thought to use correctly. For Sprintburst, even though its more powerful and has much more potential, it does have the drawback of not being able to walk if you 99'd your exhaustion, meaning you constantly have to leave scratchmarks. Nor can you vault as you recover 1% of exhaustion while vaulting(meaning that theoretically, you can vault 100 windows in a chase and use a second sprintburst/lithe).
So Sprintburst requires more managing, more precise gameplay and thus punishes mistakes much harder. Dead hard is very safe to use and has multiple uses without having to manage anything, even if it only buys you an extra second you otherwise wouldnt have.
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@Leachy_Jr said:
How tf have you gone from "I want billy nerfed whether it's the last thing I do" to "Dead hard needs looking at and OoO needs to go".
Anyway back to topic yeah OoO needs to go, especially due to the amount of problems it causes on midwich and its power in SWF.
Nah, OoO doesnt need to go. It needs a secondary drawback. Perhaps needing to stand still to use it, or requiring (replenishable) stacks to use it.