Omans
Omans
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- Omans
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3240151#Comment_3240151
For myself, it's because my argument is that balancing at the competitive level is harmful to a game and only suitable for spectator sports so how the top 0.1% or less of players perform is vastly outweighed by the other 99.9% of the playerbase.
@zarr does have an interesting suggestion just above but that's because he is aware and trying to think of ways to change Nurse at the top level while maintaining or improving enjoyment for Nurse players for people that aren't at the very top. @zarr is very knowledgeable about game mechanics and keeps the totality of the game in sight so his opinions are usually very interesting.
Most of the Nerf Nurse! threads aren't taking that into account and want to nerf Nurse because her counterplay and chase mechanics are different than the other Killers and they don't want to learn different chase mechanics while ignoring those who like versusing Nurse because her chase mechanics are different.
Considering there seems to be a considerable overlap between the Nerf Nurse! people and the people who defend ragequitting I'm not surprised they're not considering anyone else but themselves but their desire to make the game easier for themselves does not constitute a balancing imperative.
Yikes.
"their desire to make the game easier for themselves does not constitute a balancing imperative"
-Signed, person defending nurse.
Keep moving those goal posts, and using the stats which have been proven to not apply to nurse very well as your only argument.
It is hilarious, though. You say yourself that your MMR isn't very high, and yet seem intent on telling people who actually deal with the issue of Nurse that they should learn to play, and they just don't want to deal with a different style killer (such a lazy, lazy argument).
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Unlike Nurse, Blight actually plays the rules of the game. Some of his addons definitely make playing against him super obnoxious, and playing as him too easy, but the killer himself is fairly well made.
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Eruption is the problem. And every killer uses it because it gives way too much benefit. It is easily the best killer perk right now.
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Or just deleted. Let's do that instead.
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Funny how in the other thread nurse defenders got absolutely taken to school by a commenter, and now they are all in this thread pretending nothing happened. They have no interest in the balance of this game, only keeping the status quo, and the easy wins their OP character gives them.
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As expected, a poster comes in and stomps all over everything these nurse defenders are trying to claim, and suddenly they are all nowhere to be seen.
Like, if you want to play an OP character, just admit it. You aren't fooling anyone by trying to convince people nurse is fine.
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@Crowman said:
Looking at the scoreboard, it doesn't look that badly matched.
Can't read scoreboards? Points were greatly inflated by the Halloween event offerings. The nurse was obviously toying with them, not playing optimally, and going for the 12 hooks. Even so, it probably finished at 3 gens, the nurse in no real danger of even coming close to losing.
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There are so many ways to sandbag, be toxic, or make the opposing side miserable in this game. Too bad the devs are quite slow at remedying that.
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@zarr said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3239379#Comment_3239379
Some matches from the previous DbD League season:
The two (in)arguably best teams in the world facing off, 4k: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1554080870?collection=-YwKfrSu7Baxxw&t=0h46m16s
Again Trauma, one of the world's two best teams, 3k'd this time by a Nurse that is not even in the top 10 comp Nurses: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1512006733?collection=-YwKfrSu7Baxxw&t=0h0m9s
FallenArt's response? Of course a 4k: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1512006733?collection=-YwKfrSu7Baxxw&t=0h12m36s
Eternal again, 4k again (and then 3k by the other Nurse against Eternal, a top 2 team in the world): https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1511995197
Some 4k: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1511992637?t=0h9m13s
One of the most seasoned teams of Russian comp players getting 4k'd (and of course responding with a 4k of their own): https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1493702667
Exchanging Nurse 4ks: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1489102693
Another random example of exchanging Nurse 4ks, ongoing tournament (caster is Brazilian, tournament is international): https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1626117734
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1618718692 - First part is again exchanging Nurse 4ks, and then yet another exchange of Nurse 4ks after the Billy set
You get the idea.
A few things to note:
I am not saying Nurse 4ks every single time in tournaments, please don't waste the effort trying to show me an instance where that happens. Not only does that have to do with the relative skill of the teams of course, but it's also not like it is literally impossible to escape against her, it's just that even at this level she has an average kill rate of like 3.X, which is ridiculous.
Yeah there are loadout restrictions in place, but the same is the case for the killer. Want to see banned perks?
Individual: - Coup de Grâce - Deadlock - Dissolution - Franklin's Demise - Hex: Blood Favour - Hex: Devour Hope - Hex: Haunted Ground - Hex: Undying - Lethal Pursuer - Play With Your Food - Starstruck Combined: - Bamboozle + Superior Anatomy - Bitter Murmur + Rancor - Enduring + Spirit Fury - Hex: No One Escapes Death + No Way Out - Hex: Thrill of the Hunt + Hex: Pentimento - Nemesis + Rancor
But wait, there's more. Bans on top of that for Nurse specifically:
Individual: - Dead Man's Switch - Eruption - Hex: Pentimento - No Way Out - Scourge Hook: Monstrous Shrine - Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance Combined: - Bitter Murmur + Hex: No One Escapes Death - Rancor + Hex: No One Escapes Death ADD-ONS Required: + Fragile Wheeze + Dark Cincture
So all other add-ons excluded from use.
Don't get me wrong, SWF without loadout restrictions is ridiculous (although in tournaments without restrictions a bunch of the killer characters have proven to still be able to compete with even that), but these restrictions are nothing but even the top-level comp community acknowledging that the killer side too has ridiculous stuff. Both need to be addressed.
What has to be kept in mind here is that these are some of the best survivor players in the world individually, teaming up, with years of practice and experience in that environment of playing as a team, which means high levels of coordination and communication. Not only are teams of this caliber vanishingly rare in pubs (basically non-existent; you can go years without even facing one group comparable to these), but even just the basic premise of having a 4-SWF with voice comms alone is very rare (4-SWFs make for around 5% of all matches last we got info on this, and a fraction in turn of that actually being together in voice chat), which is still worlds removed from the level these teams play at. Good Nurses are infinitely more common in pubs because all that requires is one good Nurse player... deciding to play Nurse. And the fact that good Nurse players can compete even with the absolutely ridiculous scenario of a top-tier voice-comm 4-SWF spells trouble for any pub group. 500+ 4ks in a row sort of trouble.
The main take-away here however remains that there just really is little consistent counterplay against good Nurses. Even the best survivors in the world can fall like flies and look like fools, and the best Nurses like FallenArt downright look like they are cheating, that's how impossible it can seem to do anything against them.
If you are generally interested in comp DbD and want to see some good gameplay and find out that much of the killer lineup can compete well even at that level, check out these channels, where some of the currently more stacked tournaments are going on: https://www.twitch.tv/dbdleague, https://www.twitch.tv/balticleague_, https://www.twitch.tv/phenombr, https://www.twitch.tv/championsofthefog, https://www.twitch.tv/crownperformanceleague - Note that I'm not saying the game is "killer-sided" or whatever, a reasonable take has to be vastly more nuanced than that, but it's certainly infinitely less "survivor-sided" than people sometimes like to make it out to be.
I wonder if this post will just be ignored. I have a feeling the people defending nurse in her current state will just pretend they didn't see this comment. Better than accepting the truth, I guess.
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@Alionis said:
Very well put, OP, and I recently played a trial against a good Nurse in which the difference between players who know how to play against her vs players who don't was evident.
Two of the survivors had no idea how to play against her, the match ended with them both on death hook. Myself and another survivor knew how to play against her and weren't hooked a single time, able to keep her busy in long chases (hence why the other two didn't die).
Nurse inarguably has counters, and most older players know how to use them against her.
So two survivors in a match against a 'good' nurse don't know how to play against Nurse. And in this game against this 'good' nurse, the nurse only gets 4 hooks?
Just to make sure: you are calling a nurse good when she loses multiple long chases, only secures 4 hooks, and doesn't get a single kill. Right?
If all of what you said is true, then the nurse was not good.
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@Little_Kitten said:
What's sad, Omans, is that if we look in detail at the posts on which players come to complain about the nurse, we can see that you are among the players whose interventions are the most empty.
On each topic of this kind, we find players who
- give tips on how to loop a nurse depending on the situation
- explain what can be dangerous or annoying for a nurse, depending on the map, the building, the RNG, etc.
- explain how range addons are not insane addons
- give tips on how to extend the duration of the hunt (of course, these are not Deus Ex Machina, but added together, they help)
And I'm sure some nurses (including me) would be more than willing to have a quiet chat with any survivor who would like to show how they play against the nurse.
Even anonymously, we don't care; because contrary to what you seem to want to impose as an idea, Omans, we don't care if some survivors are stronger or weaker than the nurse, and our goal is not to say, "Look, you can't do anything against her, you're too lame!"
Are you going to tell me that I'm just waiting for that, and that's why I always ask those who complain to show videos of them confronting the nurse?
It's just the opposite.
On the one hand, it's to make it clear that saying something is fine, but if the person doesn't have any evidence to back up what they're saying, it's a bit meaningless.
And on the other hand, who better than a nurse to explain the mistake that such and such a survivor made at such and such a time, in front of a nurse?
As for you, Omans, you indicated some time ago that if the nurse was getting you so drunk, it was because ... you were dealing with too much. It wasn't even a question of power, because you yourself said you had no trouble playing against them.
Instead of having a hate speech that tries in every way to put down players who take the time to explain to others, calmly, what the nurse is really about, you too should move into a helping and supporting register.
If what you say is true, and you are indeed an experienced survivor who knows how to deal effectively with a nurse, this forum needs your experience more than your bile.
Your messages are so weird. Can you please stop responding to me? You misinterpret what I say, and try to argue with things I haven't even said.
You won't convince me that nurse isn't busted, so please don’t send another of your poem-responses.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3238625#Comment_3238625
I have posted my gameplay but my gameplay is not at question here. I'm not a top MMR player and one person proves nothing. I am, however, interested in seeing what the Nurses you face look like if you still have the links to the games you recorded.
If this was the first time someone asked, I would have gladly posted my gameplay, which I did.
I have no desire to post it again, and be ridiculed and lied to like before.
There are plenty of videos out there showcasing how strong she is. Watch those.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3238597#Comment_3238597
Can you post your gameplay with these god tier Nurses?
LOL! I already have, in a few threads exactly like this. I posted a nurse game, and one of the nurse defenders said it was embarrassing gameplay, despite it being a 5 gen 4k with the only missed blink attacks in the game (2) being from exhaustion perks. Another nurse defender pretends he can't find the games I timestamped and directly posted in threads he was in. Another nurse defender (two of them are in this very thread) admits my gameplay shows I know what I am talking about, but then goes on to ask for other people's gameplay like I have any control over that.
Not that a single player's gameplay is all that important, but I have already posted in these threads, naively, in an attempt to show these players who don't have much experience/knowledge in the game how the game really is. In response I was mocked and lied to. So, yeah, not doing that again.
So, yeah, I had no problem posting gameplay. Proved I am a top player. Curious why not a single person defending nurse (literally not even one single person) will post their own gameplay, when there are SO MANY videos of people saying nurse is OP.
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It is just so sad that the same old nurse defenders are in every single thread trying so hard to convince people a fact isn't true.
She is the strongest killer in the game, and gives the player who uses her too much of an advantage. That's not even in question. What these threads should be about is how she should be dealt with. Should it be slight number changes, an addon pass, an entire rework, or delete the character and watch as the people in this thread lose their entire identity, like a poster with 2000 posts desperately trying to defend nurse in every single post.
And now they are emboldened by the new mmr stats. "SEE! THAT IS PROOF SHE IS FINE!" despite being told again and again, even by the devs themselves that those stats need to be taken with a giant grain of salt. Nope, that is definitive proof she is fine to them, and everyone who disagrees should learn to play.
I just wish these nurse defenders would post their own gameplay. They won't, of course, because then everyone will be able to explain to them that they aren't very good and that‘s why they think nurse is fine. But one can hope...
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@Alcuin said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3238282#Comment_3238282
Someone hasn't learned how to break line of sight.
Someone can't read properly.
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Thanks for the tips everyone already knows.
Thanks to your wonderful thread, the secret to Nurse's counterplay (that no one except you and other nurse mains who defend her on these forums knew about, despite Nurse being on the killer roster for 6 years now) has been discovered.
People will now realize they were wrong. It was not Nurse's broken mechanics that were bothering them, but the fact that after years and years of playing at high MMR, they just never learned to play against her.
I'm sure she will drop quite far in the tier lists thanks to this thread. She's probably below Clown now, even. And it's all thanks to you, player who probably hasn't even faced a good nurse.
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Average killer: 6 to 8
Nurse/Blight: 9 to 10 (if you lose as these characters currently it is because you got massively outplayed.
SWF: 9 to 10
Solo: 2 to 3 (solo is in the worst state it has ever been. If the killer decides to play a certain way and the skill level is fairly equal, the killer will win)
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236742#Comment_3236742
DCs should not be included because they taint the data. Also, how do you know the players at high MMR are learning Nurse? Do you have any stats or evidence to back up your claim? It seems pretty far-fetched to me that players who are in the top 5% of MMR never touched Nurse and managed to get their MMR so high that their brand new Nurse was also in the top 5% of MMR and they exist in enough quantities to reduce the kill rate by more than a slight amount if at all.
The 5% MMR wasn't this is the top 5% by PC, then by console, then by soft cap, it was the top 5% period. The console players on it were obviously good enough on console they could get in the top 5% of MMR.
You have no proof or evidence that anything you're suggesting is more than pure speculation. Killers have separate MMRs so the Nurses included in the top 5% were Nurses in the top 5% period. If you want to speculate that's fine but it's just speculation and nothing more.
So you counter my 'speculation' with a whole heap of your own speculation. Okay?
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236737#Comment_3236737
You know literally none of that because the devs have not said anything about it….it’s 100% speculation on your part, not evidence
Uh... They said d/cs are not included. Console users are included. The third one is obvious..
So, yeah, I know all of that?
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236701#Comment_3236701
It hasn't been proven that the stats are invalid. The devs have cautioned that the stats for the Killers aren't the complete picture but the stats are not invalid. The stats are telling a story and that story does not support your narrative. Just because the stats don't say what you want them to say doesn't mean it's invalid.
So, once again, where is your proof and at what level is Nurse broken? It's not at low and mid MMRs, it's not at the top 5% of MMR, so at what level is Nurse broken? And, if that level is only a small subset of players why should their opinions override everyone else's? Part of the reason DbD is successful while so many other similar games have failed is because they want players at all skill levels to have fun.
So, once again, where is your evidence apart from the best players, both as Killers and as Nurse, win a lot which is to be expected and where exactly is a Nurse an issue if there is no issue seen in over 95% of MMR?
@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236649#Comment_3236649
You are completely missing the point. I would agree that Nurse is the best killer in the game. My point is that Nurse is not doing anything special, even at top level mmr. The way people talk on this forum, you would expect her kill rate at top level to be 90%. That is clearly not the case and you have no way of arguing around that. If you are saying we should nerf her because of .01% of Nurse mains are dominating, then the whole game should be balanced on that. You can’t pick and choose.
These posts. Right now. Proving the devs right when they said to take the stats with a giant grain of salt.
It has been explained why nurse does not mesh well with stats, and here these posters are using those same stats to say she is fine.
D/c's not being included, console users being included, and players at high MMR learning nurse MASSIVELY reduce her kill rate.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236649#Comment_3236649
The stats show Dredge and Plague as 1% and 2% above the average kill rate. How on earth is that massively overperforming?
Trapper is 3 percent below average.
You heard it here first. Trapper is not underperforming!
Dredge and Plague are both lower mid-tier. They are shown on the stats to be top tier. Yes, they are massively overperforming according to these stats that nurse mains are clinging to as 'proof' nurse is fine.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236611#Comment_3236611
Awesome, if that's accurate then you're complaining about the top 1% or less of Nurses. Once again, BHVR should not balance a game that is based on participation solely on such a small subset of players. If this were a competitive sport like major league football that depends on spectators, sure. As it is, no. Video games need to balance on participation unless they're in the very few,which DbD isn't, that ended up being able to go completely competitive.
You still have not given any evidence there is anything wrong with Nurse. The stats don't show it. All you point to is cherry picked streamers while ignoring the Nurses that get beaten by Henz and other such SWFs. All you bring up for evidence is people complain on forums. People complain on forums all the time about everything.
If you want Nurse nerfed because you have a personal issue with Nurse feel free to express that. It's a feeling; this is a forum to express yourself. However, you don't have one shred of evidence to back up your statement while there are pieces of evidence that discredit your statements. If you don't find Nurse fun that's a reason to complain but also please keep in mind there are other people that enjoy Nurse, both versus and as, and their fun needs to be considered as well.
Where is this evidence that nurse is fine? It has already been proven that the stats mean nothing when it comes to nurse.
There isn't a single piece of evidence that suggests she is fine.
I have no idea who that SWF team is. But how am I ignoring them? SWF is broken/imbalanced at the top level too. Didn't think I'd say that? I'm not a survivor main. I’m not a killer main. I want each side to have balance, something many players in this thread simply cannot say.
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236654#Comment_3236654
If the evidence is so irrefutable, my goodness, then all those complaining here will have no objection to showing us videos of their games against the nurse.
I'm waiting.
Yeah, good idea.
That would be nice. And hey, at the same time wouldn't it be grand if the same 4 or 5 names defending nurse in every thread posted their own gameplay? You know, just so we can see their dismal gameplay and acknowledge that the reason they think nurse is okay is because they don’t know how to play her?
Funny how they keep dodging that.
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Survivors in a swf being able to bring the same perks
Huge portions of maps that are complete dead zones AND small areas of the map with so many resources that you have to be super bad to get hit as survivor when looping in it.
Nurse in her current state
The strongest strategy in the game being tunneling the first hook. Nerf this skilless strat to the ground, and super buff getting unique hooks.
Healthy hook grabs (remove - such a skilless yet super rewarding 'tactic')
Bloodwebs not having a quick complete button. Like...seriously.
Blight's best addons
Prove Thyself, medkits, toolboxes (i think there should be very little in the way of things to increase gen speed - that would make everything so much easier to balance)
Map offerings (remove - these are almost exclusively used by players looking for an unfair advantage, as evidenced by the most popular survivor offering used was old Haddonfield)
Eruption - such a terribly designed perk
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@Little_Kitten said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236045#Comment_3236045
Not so long ago, I faced a nurse with some friends, she was playing with Make your choice.
Every time one of us had the "exposed" status, he would quietly go and play a game of cards in a bush, well hidden...
From memory, she must have had value only once or twice, in the whole game, thanks to this perk.
On the other hand, the combo Agitation + Starstruck is much more dangerous, for sure.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236076#Comment_3236076
Through this forum, many players, even nurses, have already given advice on how to play against; you can find a lot of information on the net; I think the survivors can make the effort to look a little, no?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236130#Comment_3236130
Ah but if the players who ask for nerfs are expert survivors, let them show us how they play against the nurse, so we can judge for ourselves their incredible level...
Apart from you, no one has ever shown us anything; and even then, you sent us back to a series of videos where we had to look for the right one, only to have you explain that you were regularly killed by the same nurses, since you play in a closed circle ... which is a bit logical, in short ...
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236181#Comment_3236181
This is EXACTLY what you do when you claim that the nurse is too strong while you indicated some time ago that you had no problem to play against ... when I asked you about it, you indicated that what bothered you was to meet too many nurses, because you were evolving in the high spheres, and that you were "bored" to see so many nurses ...
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236209#Comment_3236209
This is what many people don't understand.
They don't understand that the nurse is the killer against whom the survivors will have to show the most effective team spirit, the fastest and most organized play, and the most efficient adaptability.
Players would like to be able to 1V1 the nurse in an open map as they 1V1 the Huntress in Lery...
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236579#Comment_3236579
That's exactly why I ask every person who complains about the nurse to show videos of them playing against the nurse ... but nobody dares to do it ...
So well ...
Good idea. Let's ask for more 'proof' that she is busted. The 6 years worth of content from countless streamers displaying what she can do obviously wasn't enough.
Or let's wait until that NA nurse main gets 1k kills in a row. Still need more info, yeah?
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236611#Comment_3236611
People complaining about a character isn’t evidence; it’s whining. The stats however are evidence. Nurse at top 5% mmr isn’t killing more than anyone else, which means that if she is dominating , it’s probably at the like top 1%. If she is going to be balanced based on the top 1%, then the rest of the game needs to be balanced the same way. You have literally no argument other than you and others don’t like losing to her.
The same stats that say Dredge and Plague are massively overperforming? Lol. Come on, you don't actually believe what you said, do you? I thought you had more sense than the nurse mains in this thread.
@foxsansbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236553#Comment_3236553
My guy, I promise you, when you actually address a point instead of just throwing out buzz words because youre substance-less, I'll consider humoring you.
You just want attention, it's okay, I guess.
But fish for it with someone else 🤣
You're really good at just deflecting, and never actually responding to holes in what you say. If you can't even speak on the subject, just don’t respond.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236553#Comment_3236553
The only issue you're experiencing is one you created for yourself. Nurse does not create a situation where they have an extreme advantage; it's just their counterplay isn't greatly enhanced by maps where there are virtually infinite pallets and semi infinite loops. The issue is more likely your skill versus Nurse and that you're not dealing with the counterplay.
I'm not in the top 5% of MMR for survivor and I really doubt you are because it's a statistical improbability. In any event, the stats for the top 5% of MMR do not indicate an issue and only attempts to invalidate the stats based on your personal feelings have been made.
If there is an issue where's the proof it exists outside of a group of people who are largely the exact same people making multiple anti-Nurse threads? Nurse isn't unbeatable by the highest level survivors and gets bodied quite regularly at the mid and lower levels. The top 5% MMR doesn't have an issue with Nurse so where is the problem? The top 1%? The top 0.01? No game that depends on participation should balance solely on those levels.
So, once again, other than your personal opinion, where is your proof that Nurse is a wide spread issue? Disliking a Killer simply because you don't know or don't want to learn the counterplay or the top 1% or less of players are really good with her but no other level has an issue is not a reason to nerf anything.
It is a statistical improbability that a tournament player and someone who has been high up in multiple categories on the stats site (was #4 in hatches closed, top 20 for a long time until I couldn't play as much) is in the top 5 percent?
It is already proven that those stats mean literally nothing to nurse. Why do you keep mentioning that?
I feel like this is bizzaro world, these forums. People who don't have experience in something trying to insist to those that do that everything is/isn't fine.
There isn't a single piece of evidence that nurse is fine. What is there, though? Consistent displeasure for years about how oppressive she is, by players who are at a high level. But I guess she is fine because you 4-outted a nurse a few times.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236236#Comment_3236236
At 5% MMR you're facing other people within 350 points maximum of your MMR. That is a huge skill range but a 1850 MMR versus a 2200 MMR doesn't mean the 1850 is bad. The 1850 is a great player. A 2200 MMR Killer could also face a 2550 MMR survivor and get stomped.
Nurse is not even close to the issue you think it is. I do face mid level Nurses because I'm a mid level survivor. If the Nurse player is better and has better RNG, the Nurse wins. If we're better we win.
People throw out this straw man argument of a 'God Nurse' that's maybe, what, less than 1% of the players? Henz and his SWF death squad aren't what BHVR should balance around and neither should balancing be done around Otzdarva. Everyone I listed is just that much better of a player than everyone else so they have a very high win rate.
Perhaps the Nurse players you lose to are just better Killers than you are at Survivor? If you want to improve your gameplay that's probably a good assumption to start with.
"Nurse is not even close to the issue you think it is," says the person not experiencing the issue to the person experiencing the issue.
SWF is a balance issue. Nurse is a bigger one.
In my thousands of hours in the game I have gone up against a full tourney death-squad only a handfull of times in public matches. They are not common. They are hard to set up. They don’t happen a lot. Does that mean they aren't imbalanced? No, but that issue pales in comparison to the nurse issue.
Nurse has an extreme advantage over equally skilled survivors all the way up until those death squads I mentioned, where they are about equal.
"if the Nurse player is better and has better rng, the nurse wins. If we're better, we win."
It just isn't true...nurse's mechanics allow her to perform higher than the player using her's skill level. That's what OP means. That's what nurse is. I'm baffled you think survivors are on equal footing with nurse. They aren't, apart from the situation listed above.
Like, sorry, but you're just wrong.
Just like playing SWF allows you to beat a killer higher than your skill level, Nurse allows you to do the same. It's just fact.
@foxsansbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236208#Comment_3236208
Besides you still being unable to point out any inaccuracies, I'm also now not sure you know what the word best means.
1) I did. Read again.
2) This guy doesn't think nurse is the best killer/best in those aspects of the game. That's all anyone needs to know about his credibility on the subject of Nurse and balance..
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@Murgleïs said:
Because she has the lowest winrate. It doesn’t matter if 1% are good when 99% don’t win games…
Even more reason to rework her...
It gives me no solace knowing that at low mmrs people think nurse is fun to face, when the Nurses I face have practiced enough with her to negate the skill of those she faces.
They have been slowly removing/reworking "I-win" buttons (keys, moris, super OP addons, syringes/haddonfield map offering). Nurse is just next on a long list of things that players can/could use to easily win the game.
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@danielmaster87 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236377#Comment_3236377
All of the maps are atrocious for killer. The only exceptions being the times where you get insane deadzones on Suffocation Pit and Azarov's Resting place, which I seem to get exclusively when I play survivor. I don't know how you find defending the hook exciting. What are you saying? Removing hook grabbing "a small nerf" for killer? No, it's a huge nerf. Survivors could literally run up healthy, get a guaranteed hook trade, and often times that's the game losing play for you. You can't afford for them to just hook trade, because you will lose. What they do is they sit on a gen for 45 seconds, come over and unhook in the last 15, meanwhile you just sat there. It's a net loss no matter what, so why you would think that them hook trading for free is fine speaks to the caliber of survivors that you get.
Yes, that's how it should be...a killer sitting waiting for a free grab is not a healthy part of this game.
That part of the game should be punished severely.
Leaving hook should be rewarded greatly.
Healthy hook grabs should be removed, punishing players who rely on camping and skilless plays.
And the devs should give killers some type of reward for hooking unique survivors, something like windows and pallets get blocked for a minute after each unique hook or something like that. Or something else that punishes skilless camping plays while rewarding skilled hunts/chases.
Devs have no interest in doing that, though. They don’t understand why players play their game.
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No dev has ever gone up against a nurse who knows how to play. Only explanation that makes sense. Would explain other balancing decisions pretty well, too.
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@Okonar_ said:
So you want the saves to be basically free and make the game even more one dimensional and boring... Let's make so any divebombing ape can get the save for free, yes great idea! Grab game is fun on both sides imo, if u suck at it thats too bad
Grab game is in no way, shape or form fun. It is an outdated mechanic used by players who love staying next to the hook every hook because they aren't as good as they think they are.
A hook trade is in no way "free".
As it is currently, any "camping ape" can get the grab for "free", so yeah it is high time to remove it.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236221#Comment_3236221
And yet the Nurses in the top 5% of MMR don't have a kill rate that would support your statement. If you don't want to learn the counterplay that's on you and a you problem.
Oh, you mean the stats that seem to suggest Dredge is the 2nd best killer in the game? Or that Blight is barely above average? The stats that include console players who have trouble playing as killers like nurse? The stats that the devs themselves said are not to be used to support statement such as yours?
Or maybe we should nerf Wesker, a pretty well-made and balanced killer into the ground because his stats suggest he is overperforming by a lot.
Yeah..that nurse percentage means nothing.
Want to know why the nurse percentage is lower than it actual should be? Killer mmr doesn't work. The mmr system doesn't work. If you are high mmr as killer you will face the same survivors no matter what killer you play as. So someone who has put a lot of time into other killers and is really good at other killers tries nurse? Get stomped because it takes some time to learn her? That's a 0k towards her stats. And that happens a lot.
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@TheSubstitute said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236016#Comment_3236016
I did. I like playing against Nurse and I like solo queue. Partially it was because certain posters accused me of lying so I recorded 75 consecutive games and posted them online and gave the link.
I had a 45.3% escape rate overall so I lost just short of 55% of the games. I think in 20% of the games we got stomped. However, none of the losses and stomping were from a Nurse. In fact, it was a 4E during the trials we faced a Nurse.
The fact that you can't effectively play against Nurse and don't like playing against Nurse doesn't mean everyone has that problem. Play Nurse for a few weeks and you'll have a much better idea of her limitations.
The link to the videos, by the way, is in my profile discussions in case you want proof I recorded both wins and losses.
So you think nurse is fine because the nurses you faced got 0k's.
And you think you play well against good nurses when the Nurses you are actually going against haven't even learned how to play her yet.
Hmm..
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236181#Comment_3236181
Feel free to highlight actual inaccuracies instead of just malding everytime.
You can do it. I believe in you. Your first 888 posts were just practice.
Literally everything you post about nurse. So..just click your post history. I only ever see you post about nurse, so it should be really easy to find.
Just in this thread alone, though: you providing 'counterplay' tips for nurse, knowing full well, and being told countless times in other threads that the people making these threads already do all that in their games against nurse. Do you happen to forget every time you are told?
Best chase in the game. Best mobility in the game. Best overall killer in the game. Consensus best killer for years. Acknowledged to be OP by everyone who plays the game at a high level except a few forum posters here, and unsurprisingly their profile picture is almost always the nurse.
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236130#Comment_3236130
Calm down, Peanut Gallery. When someone wants to waste their time trying to interact with you, they'll do just that.
Someone has to inform the people reading your posts how innacurate and biased the posts are.
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@foxsansbox said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3236076#Comment_3236076
Nah, dude.
We explain all the time. We get the same copout responses: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/325952/tell-me-how-to-counter-a-nurse/p1
Holy cow, how can you repeat the same thing over and over and not realize how wrong you are?
The things said in those threads are what people already know how to do against her. Do you think it is new players asking for nerfs to nurse? No. It is players who know how to play and have realized how busted her mechanics are. But I guess you haven't reached that level yet.
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@burt0r said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3235358#Comment_3235358
Aha so you are a "really, really good killer" that doesn't get matched with survivor fitting your skill level and therefore can hold the 12 hook gameplay, cool.
Now let's imagine this game using a correct matchmaking, you waiting minutes for games, like it was in the beginning of MMR for skilled players and then getting matched against probably 4 men swf marching your skill and suddenly all bets are off because the 12 hook style is no longer valid
Survivor are non stop crying on here that they don't want to sweat and have to play in a 4 men swf, so killer don't want to be forced to either but we can't have that in the game state right now.
The 12 hooks aren't feasible for the average player and therefore either the killer didn't play "fair" for the 12 hook and has someone dead before EGC OR they will have all survivor alive at EGC and there was no way around it except no-living this "casual" game.
12 hooks is more than feasible for the average player. The average player is low mmr. The lower you go in mmr, the stronger the killer role gets.
Then they will reach a point where they can't get 12 hooks, can't get kills anymore. And that‘s when they will realize that they have gone past their mmr, and it is time for them to go down a bit.
Or, as is so common on these forums, they will whine that killer is such a weak role, and claim that things like healthy hook grabs should stay in the game.
You might want to practice your own gameplay, though, if you are having so much trouble.
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@Rulebreaker said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3235250#Comment_3235250
That's kinda what is being asked though. If a healthy survivor can't be grabbed, there's alot less risk for a healthy survivor to just immediately dive the hook. The killer is at best forced to trade.
As for the ones saying "if there's 4 survivors at the end it's on you", you realize your promoting tunneling yes?
I shouldn't have to explain basic gameplay.
If the survivor is immediately diving the hook for a save, a good killer says thanks for the free pressure.
If the survivor wants to give a trade, a good killer says thanks for the free pressure.
Nope, I'm promoting boosted killer players relying on cheese and skilless techniques be dropped down to the mmr they deserve to be at. But that might upset the many killers on the forum who think they deserve to be a higher mmr than they are because they are so used to tunneling off the first hook.
@burt0r said:
I love the metric "if all 4 survivor are still alive at EGC, that's on you" and on the other hand "how dare you to focus someone out before 8 hooks".
You can't have both.
And if it is okay to kill someone before the 8th, when? Where is the magical threshold after which it is allowed according to etiquette/sportsmanship to aim for a tilt in pressure aka 3vs1? 6hooks? 4 gens done?
Everyone thinks differently, of course. I only go for the 12 hook win. I am a really, really good killer player, so unless I am going up against a tourney swf 4-stack I know I am capable of winning every game. When I play killer I will not intentionally tunnel. Whoever is in my vision, I will go for.
When I play survivor I detest killers who tunnel the first hooked survivor to death. It happens in the majority of top mmr games on the Korean server, and it is so boring. It reduces the game to a 1v1 (the killer vs that first survivor). So when I play killer that's not how I play. It is unbalanced and unfun.
Of course, if the survivors are a full SWF, all bets are off.
I don't think that is too irrational. Just as playing nurse with her busted addons, or playing a full tourney squad swf in public matches, or tunneling the first hooked survivor out at 5 gens, there are things about this game that are ridiculously unbalanced and unfun for both sides. It shouldn't be too much to expect players to shy away from doing those things.
To tie it back to what you said, though, whether you tunnel off the first hook or play like I play, if you don’t have a kill before the EGC, it is because you didn't deserve one.
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@VikingDragonXii said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3235207#Comment_3235207
Same can be said as Survivors shouldn't expect a free rescue either. They dont promote it any more than anything else promotes camping. If the player wants to camp they will regardless if hook grabs stay or not.
Removing the grabs will however Promote more risky rescues in the Killers face and could promote Tunneling more....
No one has ever expected a free rescue, nor is that being asked for.
Sure seems like a lot of killers think they should be gifted a free kill simply for hooking one survivor, though, with all the people defending healthy hook grabs.
The people defending healthy hook grabs staying in the game are just telling on themselves. "if healthy hook grabs go away how can I cheese a loss into a win with no skill involved?"
@GoodJobGuys92 said:
Let's complain about everything the killer can do.
Play both sides.
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Also, notice how no one has ever suggested that healthy grabs from gens should be removed? Because that is an actual skilled play that is deserving of reward.
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@CoDismylife said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3234190#Comment_3234190
I don't really main a killer, I play huge variety. Only killers I don't play is Trapper, hag, nurse.
If you aren't playing nurse then you aren't getting close to 99 percent win rate. There, I beat you.
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@danielmaster87 said:
Killers would be fine with just getting a hit if that didn't also result in everyone getting out, despite the hook being like full-map away. Because as of right now, hitting someone when people are hook bombing, in endgame, leads to everyone getting out unless they make a huge blunder. People conga line body block, even the unhooked person because base BT is totally just for their protection, and even if you get the down in the exit area, body block and heal tech time, same result.
If the killer hooked near a 99'd exit and didn't try to push anyone else out? Sure, the survivors deserve to escape. But otherwise, it's a free escape that really shouldn't be one. That's why grabs have stayed.
If you don't have a kill before the EGC that is on you. If you have a kill before EGC, then hook another survivor, securing that next kill is super easy unless you hooked them right next to the gate.
If you expect a free kill in EGC, that's unreasonable.
Healthy hook grabs promote bad, skilless gameplay. It should be removed entirely, but I would be completely fine with keeping healthy hook grabs after the gens have been completed, but removing them before the gens are done.
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I don't D/C unless there is a hacker. I don't think people should D/C unless there is a hacker or some weird glitch or something like that.
However, I don't entirely blame those who D/C when they meet nurse. She is busted. Only nurse mains deny this known fact.
So I'd say the blame can go three ways: the devs for not fixing her, the player for d/C'ing, and the nurse player who in most cases uses her strongest addons and perks, breaking the balance of the game just to 'win'.
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@RavenzZ said:
Removing hook grabs wouldn't even really make a difference generally, though I also think that they should completely removed the ability to hit a hooked survivor because I don't know how many times I have hit pretty much completely through the survivor attempting the rescue and hit the hooked survivor.
??????????? It would make a huge difference.
So many killers try to cheese a healthy hook grab into a game-ending situation because it is such a skilless yet strong advantage for the killer.
Forcing actual hook trades by removing healthy hook grabs is something the devs need to do.
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@woundcowboy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3233992#Comment_3233992
You left out the fact that she is not even top 5 at the highest mmr. She is fine, people just like to complain
Stats only matter when you say they do.
I guess Dredge is one of the best killers? Or Wesker is supremely OP, eh? No to either one, so you should know that these stats aren't telling even close to the whole story.
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I think Wesker is a great killer to play as and against. It actually feels fair to go against him unlike the busted queen of DBD the nurse.
If I would change anything at all, it would be the rate at which the infection spreads after you have been unhooked. Maybe tie it to the conspicuous action feature. If the survivor doesn't perform a conspicuous action (aka is being tunneled) then the infection increases at a decreased rate. If a conspicuous action is performed, it increases normally. Seems like it would be a good change that would only affect killers doing that skilless 'strategy'.
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@Coffeecrashing said:
The perk should make an AoE incapacitate around the affected generators, so that SWFs using voice communication will still get hit by it. Solo q survivors should be perfectly fine with this, since their complaint is that SWFs had more counterplay than solos.
The complaint is it is a poorly thought up perk...
Plenty of perks give SWFs more counterplay than solos. Probably the least healthy perk in the game right now is Eruption, and hey, look at that, it is in basically every killer's build.
Making an overly oppresive perk even more oppresive is certainly...an idea. It would be like suggesting giving the old Undying perk a secondary effect of respawning ruin into the game even after both totems have been destroyed.
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It's too bad it is the most optimal 'strategy' in order to 'win' as killer.
If tunneling from the first hook was appropriately rewarded based on how much skill it took a lot of killers would see their boosted mmr's plummet. Even at the top mmr I see lots of killers who only know how to tunnel the first hook because it rewards so much for so little effort or skill.
Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of boosted survivors, but the people who only play killer on these forums seem to think they should be able to face off against survivor players who are much better than them.
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@AJStyIez said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/VT8YXZVX579R/soloq.jpg
This was my first match of the day last night, a Starstruck Nurse. She was also the only Nurse of the night... Although this clearly wasn't Supaalf playing and they didn't choose certain addons I still didn't find much difficulty with the slowdown or the other perks/gameplay besides Starstruck. She got ran as normal and she punished bad reads. We happened to play on a Survivor sided map and were efficient at rotating on gens. 3 man out as 2 solos and 1 (more than likely) duo
I'd bet my money on the odds that these are the way more common Nurse matches people see instead of the Shelter Woods 5 gen slaughterhouse. I'm not gonna suggest that just because it isn't as common that means it doesn't matter, however I'm just curious as to how many matches against Nurse are actually THOSE types of matches or just a basic winnable match like my screenshot where the Survivors threw the game themselves by their own choices or perhaps bad RNG
I believe if they make the 2nd Nurse Blink count as an M2 and reworked all of the strong/meme addons then she'll be fine. As of now it makes no sense for her to be straight up gutted or nerfed when you still have SWF remaining untouched and Solos also not being shown love with a QoL patch. How about lets take one things at a time and stop creating a thousand cuts to cover with band-aids
No one complaining about nurse is playing on console.