NullSp3c
NullSp3c
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@Orionbash said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1357825#Comment_1357825
In the game where I almost got merciless I made the mistake of using his power to hit a survivor that vaulted at shack. She made so much distance on me due to the cooldown + the fact I was further back. I had to drop chase. I was punished for using my power. -_-
These phrases gave me so much a legion vibe.
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@Almo said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1356509#Comment_1356509
When I look at the average number of kills for Legion, it's right in the middle. They're not the best, they're not the worst. This is across all maps, all ranks. That's as much detail as I can go into on this.
So if the stats between all ranks show that something isn't that bad or that good no reasonable changes will be made even if something else proves the opposite? That is my way to read this.
Please correct me if im wrong.
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@Maelstrom10 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1356810#Comment_1356810
true enough. but going back to what you mentioned before hand, what exactly do you count as a occasion worthy of granting a pallet vault? a pallet vault (atleast in my own opinion) is no more likely to grant a hit, then a regular vault, except when you immediately go into your power after someone throws down a pallet (when their usually healthy, and would just put them into deep wounds.) Vaulting a pallet when their injured to catch up to them is mostly useless in its current state due to the 4s cooldown coming out of your power (which they can then use to reach another pallet, another vault, or simply go right back over the pallet) to down them, so its mostly useful for countering early pallet throws and injuring people making mistakes.
don't get me wrong im very interested to see/hear your ideas mate, i just don't truly get what you mean by removing their ability to vault pallets outside of special circumstances, expecially without knowing those circumstances or the other buffs used to support this nerf. elsewise this just seems like a giant nerf to his basekit which already only really helps him get and keep people injured.
@NullSp3c said:
Hi! So, I wanted to make a general change to how legion works, maintaining the feral frenzy's objective and power but it will feel much more fun to play as and to play against. It's very similar, but very different at the same time.
I want to clear his already: Deep wounds is in a near-perfect state as it is now because it can't be exploited by both sides.
I'll first make the description of the power and then put the numbers and add-ons that need a change after it. Please note that Frenzy is the power itself (any mention to this applies to both stances), Feral Frenzy is a stance and Bestial Frenzy is another stance. This seems really hard to understand, but it is pretty easier than it looks, specially in-game i think its easier to understand.
So here's the power:
FRENZY
The Legion has a Frenzy power gauge that builds up over time. When tapping the Power button, The Legion goes into Feral Frenzy. While Frenzy is active, the power gauge drains rapidly and the power ends when the gauge is empty, entering in a fatigue state.
When Feral Frenzy is active, The Legion enters a deadly rage:
- The Legion sprints faster than base movement speed.
- The Legion's terror radius is increased.
- The Legion can vault windows faster. Can break pallets, but not vault them.
- Survivors' Scratch Marks and blood pools are hidden from The Legion's view.
- Missing an attack depletes half of The Legion's entire power gauge and ends the power immediately.
- Applying Deep Wounds triggers "Killer Instinct", revealing the location of all Survivors who do not have the Deep Wound Status Effect applied and are within The Legion's Terror Radius.
- Hitting a non-healthy Survivor puts the survivor in the dying state, depletes The Legion's entire power gauge and ends the power immediately.
- Hitting a healthy Survivor upgrades Feral Frenzy into Beastial Frenzy until the power ends, refills the Legion's entire power gauge and inflicts Deep Wounds to that survivor.
While in Beastial Frenzy:
- The Legion sprints even faster.
- The power gauge lasts longer.
- Survivors' Scratch Marks are hidden from The Legion's view.
- Missed attacks have a reduced cooldown, deplete 25% of the power gauge and no longer end the Frenzy.
- Legion is also able to vault pallets but not to break them.
- Hitting a survivor:
- Applies the Deep Wound Status Effect.
- Injures the Survivor, if they are not already injured.
- Refills The Legion's entire power gauge.
While in Beastial Frenzy, hitting a survivor who is currently afflicted with the Deep Wound Status Effect:
- Reduces a portion of the survivor's deep wound bleedout timer.
- Depletes The Legion's entire power gauge and ends the power immediately.
NOTE: Hitting a Survivor with a basic attack will deplete the power gauge.
Some notes that aren't in the power description but might be important too
- Manually cancelling the power depletes the power bar (like OG legion).
- Getting hit by a pallet outside of Frenzy does NOT deplete the power gauge.
- Pretty much like now, Frenzy's attacks are NOT basic attacks (so no sinergy with exposed).
- Legion can see auras while Killer Instinct is activated.
Some not so important things that i think that need adjustment for these changes (Ex: Visual clues and QoL changes)
- Add a VFX to make a distinction between Feral Frenzy and Bestial Frenzy. I would suggest to make some kind of wind particles go from the front of Legion to behind (pretty much like in the power icon) when in Beastial Fenzy, to give an idea of bonus speed.
NOW ONTO THE VALUES
Base Killer stats
- 4.4 m/s (110%)
- 24 meter terror radius
POWER STATS/NUMBERS
FRENZY
- The power can only be activated when the power gauge is full.
- Refill time: 15 seconds.
- Terror radius increase: 24 meters --> 32 meters.
- Fatigue Duration: 3 seconds.
Feral Frenzy
- Speed: 5.2 m/s.
- Duration: 7 seconds.
- Vault Duration: 0.9 seconds.
- Breaking pallets: Same speed as normal (stops the draining of the power gauge until the animation finishes).
Bestial Frenzy
- Speed increase: +0.2 m/s (5.4 m/s)
- Duration increase: +3 seconds (10 seconds)
- Vault Duration for windows and pallets: 0.9 seconds.
- Survivor's deep wound timer reduction: 10 seconds (30 second timer).
ADD-ONS
Common add-ons:
- Smiley Face Pin: Slightly decreases the power gauge depletion on successful attacks outside of Frenzy. (10% of the gauge remains).
- Scratched Ruler: Slightly reduces Frenzy Recovery time. Does not stack. (2 seconds).
- Mischief List: Slightly increases Beastial Frenzy's duration. (+1 second).
- Friendship Bracelet:
- Slightly increases the terror radius while in Frenzy. (+4 meters)
- Slightly increases the movement speed of Frenzy. (+0.1 m/s)
Uncommon add-ons:
- Never-Sleep Pills:
- Moderately increases the terror radius while in Frenzy. (+8 meters)
- Slightly increases the movement speed of Frenzy. (+0.1 m/s)
- Mural Sketch: Slightly increases Beastial Frenzy's duration. (+1.5 seconds).
- Julie's Mixtape: Survivors put into deep wounds suffer from the Mangled status effect for 60 seconds.
- Etched Ruler: Moderately reduces Frenzy's Recovery time. Does not stack. (3.5 seconds).
- Defaced Smiley Pin: Moderately decreases the power gauge depletion on successful attacks outside of Frenzy. (20% of the gauge remains).
Rare add-ons:
- The Legion Pin: Considerably decreases the power gauge depletion on successful attacks outside of Frenzy. (30% of the gauge remains).
- Susie's Mixtape:
- Considerably increases the terror radius while in Frenzy. (+16 meters).
- Moderately increases the movement speed of Frenzy. (+0.2 m/s)
- Stolen Sketch Book: Slightly increases Beastial Frenzy's duration. (+2 seconds).
- Nasty Blade: Slightly increases Mending time. (1.5 seconds)
- Joey's MIxtape: Survivors put into deep wounds suffer from the Broken status effect for 60 seconds.
Very Rare add-ons:
- Stab Wounds Study:
- While suffering from deep wounds:
- Survivors' grunts of pain are considerably louder (50% louder than normal).
- Survivors' suffer from the oblivious status effect.
- While suffering from deep wounds:
- Frank's Mixtape: While in Feral Frenzy, missed attacks have a reduced cooldown and only drop 33% of the power gauge. While in Beastial Frenzy missed attacks don't drop the power gauge.
- Filthy Blade: Moderately increases mending time. (2.5 seconds)
- Cold Dirt: Survivors put into deep wounds moderately suffer from the Hindered status effect until fully mended (-0.2m/s) and from the Blindness status effect for 60 seconds.
Ultra Rare add-ons:
- Fuming Mixtape:
- While using Frenzy, the Repair Progression of Generators can be determined by the intensity of their Auras.
- Iridescent Button: During Frenzy:
- Your Terror Radius affects the entire Map.
- Any pallets you vault are immediately broken.
- You break pallets 25% faster while in Feral Frenzy. Does not stack.
CAREFULLY read ALL of the topics above, because some things here sound really overpowered if you don't read everything.
I want to know your opinions on this and if you have any questions, i will answer them. I did a lot of work on this, so i would appreciate constructive feedback.
Have a nice day, everyone!
This rework is what i mean when i say that pallet vaulting should be only available in specific situations.
The rework is very hard to understand, maybe i could've expressed myself better than i did in the post but maybe you'll get it.
We're getting kinda off topic.
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@ChiTenshi said:
I have 2 ideas to help:
1) For each Survivor that’s hit with Feral Frenzy, the Exhaustion duration is reduced by X amount. Rewards players who successfully hit multiple targets with Feral Frenzy rather than penalising them.
2) Mending starts on a shorter period but takes longer for the next Survivor hit during Feral Frenzy. Example, Mending could take 9 seconds on the first person hit, but takes 11 seconds on the second, 13 seconds on the third, and so on.
I like those ideas, but making the base fatigue shorter won't hurt anyone.
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@Maelstrom10 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1356490#Comment_1356490
vaulting pallets is one of the few things entirely unique to legion. just as the Executioner has the ability to hit through objects, nurse goes through walls, wraith invisibility etc. i would be very very sad if they removed it. it being tied to his power is how it should be and making his power harder to achieve balances it out.
obvs things shouldn't be balanced around missing hits or strikes, but nurse is done in such a way where missed hits are punished, and successful hits aren't punished as much. thats what im talking about with legion.
That being said, having a system where legion earns his power outside of frenzy (lets just say by injuring survivors though it could be over time etc) and then turns him into a far deadlier version of his current self, where he once he has his power, can vault pallets, down survivors fast with no attack cooldown for a short period of time. basically giving him the power to snowball on command similar to an oni, and ability to ignore loops like a nurse, but earned throughout normal organic killer gameplay.
I have some reworks on the forum and ALL of them include pallet vaulting. I said remove OR make it activate only in special occasions.
Nurse is a 3.92 m/s killer as legion is a 4.6 killer and can vault anything simply down you and he can catch you really easily because the power lasts 10 seconds. I don't feel that it is interactive gameplay.
EDIT: they already vault pallets faster in the power and that's a signature mechanic. Vaulting pallets is a bonus that can be achieved in certain situations.
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@Maelstrom10 said:
honestly the 4s stun is why i don't play legion much if at all. sure he wasn't the best initially but the 4s stun is like being hit with a ds or head on constantly, only you can move at like 20% your speed, except your also being blinded like a nurse,
least nurses stun (her lookdown etc) balances out the fact that she is lethal in her attacks
i will say this, and say it again until the day i die. legion shouldn't be built around deep wounds, but rather be the counterpart to nurse, as ghostface is to myers.
legion should be able to do normal damage in his frenzy as if it was an m1 attack. at the same time though, successful hits should diminish his power gauge much like with oni. His rechage should be 20s for a 10s use period where he can just go ape, really fast, and shorter cooldowns/faster vaults and vaulting pallets. missing attacks should pull him out and be punished. his reach should be shortened to compensate for his increased speed requiring him to be precise. stuns in frenzy should double stun and remove his power. exiting and entering frenzy should be able to be done at any stage of his power gauge, but he can lower his power below that of which is 0 left by successfully downing a survivor or being stunned, forcing him into a longer cooldown.
take away deepwounds and his tracking. he doesn't need those. he needs lethality, and would've done so much better as a pseudo nurse/oni style rampager with long cooldowns, who has no tracking or extra abilities other then to just ignore pallets and vaults temporarily at the expense of losing all tracking on survivors (blood and scratch marks) and requiring precision hits. you could even make it that successful hits lengthen his power time, but have attack cooldowns, but successful downs take him out of his power.
What you are suggesting feels too overpowered and obnoxious for both sides. As i said before in this thread, i think that you shouldn't rely on missing or not a hit to balance something.
By what you are suggesting, when legion uses frenzy the survivor can just try to make them miss but it isnt that easy unless stupid things like hitboxes and stuff happen. On the other hand there are too many stuns and too much penalty for missing a hit.
I don't think it is the way to go. Vaulting pallets should be removed or activate is specific occasions.
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@The_Daydreamer said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/161004/3-seconds-is-more-than-enough
Thank you for your work. Glad someone actually took the time to do this. ♥
I want this killer be something enjoyable for everyone. Not frustrating for one side and annoying for the other.
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@mike1288mccarthy said:
I feel legion is kinda weak especially with how bad the match making system is, I get dominated whenever I play as legion. But I can get 4ks with Freddy without even trying that hard, but with legion it's a different story i need to try so hard to just get 1 sacrifice.
Yeah legion really has a bad time at finishing survivors as the videos show.
On the other hand freddy has the whole package.
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@notyarbllewe said:
I think the Legion's power is really good itself (I am a Legion main myself), but it is just things like this that make many people doubt him. Maybe the Devs could make his power naturally last a bit longer or have him move faster (and/or shorten his cool down as you said)? The many still-giant maps don't allow him to hit many people when they are spread apart. It kills him when he can only hit one person each frenzy. The more he hits, the stronger he becomes. When a Legion player can hit almost everyone each frenzy, the game is theirs.
Doesnt matter how many buffs that they give to feral frenzy as long as they are a m1 killer in the end you totally rely on the survivor's mistakes and in high ranks people usually know how to loop really well so you get stomped and you cant do anything about it.
Its a very bad design atm and they need a rework. Legion now is just annoying to face. You know that something ia wrong when you feel safer when the killer uses their power- i feel like that when legion uses frenzy because i know im immortal while he is in that stance.
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@extonjonas said:
Well its your own fault for maining legion, he is a bad killer. If you ask me i think they should revert him back to his old self with all the new changes. Bring him back down to his slower base movement, give him back the ability to down people with frenzy but keep the nerf where he has a four second cooldown and if he misses an attack he still leaves frenzy. Since they changed the way deep wound works and you can no longer cheese the down it is not so cheap. I just think that it makes no sense to have a killer whose power stops being useful once survivors are injured.
One of the many other problems that old legion had was that your power did nothing else to an injured person.
The missing hits mechanic is very unreliable and it shouldnt be key to balance a killer imo.
I like the Legion because of their aesthetics and i have been very vocal in the forums that i dont like the power how it is now. I loved the old power but ofc it needed changes.
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@bluedog1116 said:
Good job on the guy who made this post, you clearly know what is the problem is, what you want fixed, and and how prepared you are. GREAT JOB👏👏👏👏
Thank you for the kind words :)
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@PigMainClaudette said:
The thing is, and I did cover this in my thread The Legion Problem, is that he's balanced around the Pip system rather than the community-preferred kill based perceptions. Legion is without a doubt one of, if not, the EASIEST killer to rank up with even if you don't get many kills.
Legion's strength isn't in their ability to secure kills, it's being able to continually and consistently harass survivors all game.
It is simply a bad design. They need a rework imo but until then dont make them absolutely horrendous to play as.
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@Alice_pbg said:
You'll find it hard to find anyone that doesn't agree with you on this.
Besides the devs of course.
That is what intrigues me.
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@Sonzaishinai said:
The thing about legion is dispite being on the weaker side ( i personally don't think it's that bad) they are very popular and they are quite the noobstomper
Overal Legion is probably doing pretty well as if you are up against newer survivors who can't chase well it's usually an easy win because of either being able to down everyone left and right or by getting massive momentum by all the healing being done.
So if you look at Legion who is picked often and is doing well on the grand scale of things and then look at other weaker killers who are doing worse and are picked less. The priority is obvious
We might get some small changes across the line but i wouldn't hold my breath for a rework/huge buff anytime soon
Every killer can stomp on newer survivors if they're good enough.
As you said, they can change numbers and it doesn't take that much time but it's been more than a year that they did the update.
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@DetailedDetriment said:
Just for posting this, the devs will give Legion a five second stun.
I wouldn't doubt it... I wish i had the PepeLaugh emote here.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352945#Comment_1352945
I'm not sure I'd say Feral Frenzy used to be the most lethal power, but now it's completely non-lethal with so many downsides... in theory, it's supposed to be good for slowing down the game. Only, not really; it's more just an annoyance for survivors to make the match less fun and more tiresome for them. Okay, so then it's good for tracking? Well, only if survivors are all grouped up, which once they discover it's Legion they really shouldn't be, so then he's just an M1 killer with a power that lets him run fast across the map but then stuns him for 4 seconds... ######### is the point of this, again?
If I'm gonna play for tracking and slowdown, I'd much rather play Doctor. If I want to play a killer who can go fast, I'll pick Spirit, Wraith, Billy, or Oni. Legion in theory has the ability to do both in one package, but he doesn't do either of them well. No other killer stops being lethal when they go fast. Spirit and Wraith may have to come out of their power first, but they don't get stunned for 4 seconds when doing so. Legion is a whole lot of punishment with no payoff. Put Infectious Fright on Billy or Oni and they have similar tracking to Legion with more speed and way more lethality.
All in all, Legion's main superpower seems to be that he's supernaturally annoying, both for survivors with "mending" and for the killer player with his extremely punishing and situational power. The best thing about Legion is his aesthetic; Legion gets great cosmetics.
Yeah, playing on PS4 is a pain. The frame drops hurt a lot during a chase. If frames drop around the time I swing my weapon, it almost always misses.
I said it was the most lethal power in the game (maybe the 2nd now that i think of it) because the survivor wasn't able to run away from you, it took a lot of time costing you the match so it wasn't good, it was simply lethal.
I agree with what you said tho.
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@KlapzCheeks said:
I play and main legion because hes underpowered. He needs a bit of a buff.
I can't understand people that do this, maining something that is underpowered just because it is. I just can't see the beauty in it so I admire the people who do that.
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@seki23 said:
i get the point but if you decrease the cooldown plus that cooldown addons you could create a 2 seconds stun wich can be very oppresive.
Then rework the add-ons into something creative AND useful.
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@FreddysMixTape said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1353845#Comment_1353845
I do think I've read some of your reworks and actually enjoyed them as a whole.
Regarding the list, I can only say I agree with everything. I think Legion is beyond bad and like someone else in this thread already mentioned, it just feels like the devs just had a knee-jerk reaction(despite them saying that they would never knee-jerk nerf a character again when talking about freddy b4 his rework) and just put every nerf ever suggested onto the character in exchange for a measly 5% extra base ms(hurray?).
In the end we can only hope they'll give them a proper power update some time in the near future.
I think that they will focus first on the chainsaw bros (add-ons only for hillbilly and add-ons + power rework for leatherface) and then pig's and huntresse's add-ons and then they will finally look at legion... if they ever will...
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@FreddysMixTape said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352945#Comment_1352945
>Another 180 that comes to my mind is the fact that the most lethal and 2nd most flexible power in the game became the one with the 2nd most cooldown, is only worth in very specific scenarios and is ALWAYS non-lethal.
This. I loved how flexible frenzy used to be and how there were always so many choices one could make with the right one usually rewarding the player with multiple injures and a fairly quick down (or just a quicker down if you are actively trying to run someone down). It was a mobility tool, a chase tool, an information tool, a juggling tool and a stalling tool. One could basically flex the power to fit whatever their current situation needed at the time.
With new Legion the power just feels incredibly restrictive. It's good for one thing and one thing only which is injuring a group of people IF they all happen to be close enough together and aren't actively trying to make distance. Like the power has only one purpose and it's not even amazing at it.
In regards to the actual topic: I 100% agree, but I think the character needs much more to be actually decent, specifically they need some sort of chase tool again as I personally believe that a non-stealth killer without any chase tools will never be good.
I made some possible reworks for legion and posted them on the forums.
I just pointed this flaw out, there are lost of others. Here's a list I made a few months ago that tells everything that is bad with the power.
@NullSp3c said:
I've made a cool list about legion's power.
These are the downsides:
- Doesn't work to down survivors.
- To chase.
- To get information far away.
- Against spreaded survivors.
- Has a huge penalty.
Is slow so some loops can be loopable when using feral frenzy.(Vault speed got increased to normal and power speed got increased, but not to the needed value).- A stun takes you out.
- A missed hit takes you out.
- Hitting someone twice makes nothing and drops the power.
- Doesn't do anything against injured or exposed survivors.
- Doesn't help you patrol generators because you go further by just walking.
- Has a huge punishment in the end.
- You can't see blood pools.
- You can't see scratch marks.
- Makes your screen blurred so you easily miss a survivor when fatiguing.
- Partially deafens you.
- Has a 24 second cooldown.
- Your vision is turned down a little making it harder to see survivors.
- And there are white lines in the screen that partially limit your vision,
to seem that you go fast (and in reallity you are not going).(Again, the power speed got increased, but not to the needed value). - Feels bad to use due to their uselessness.
- You won't use it in the end game because you can't down people, it will be just used in very specific situations.
- Isn't flexible, needs a full power bar to be activated.
- When you miss a hit you lose all the pressure that you had.
- Hitting someone while out of feral frenzy takes 50% of the bar.
- Killer instinct doesn't let you know the distance.
No orange auras on killer instinct for no reason(already changed).- Mending can be completely ignored by survivors.
Mending is annoying to play against.(The time is reduced now so it isn't even a problem).- Doesn't proc on-hit effects.
These are the upsides:
- Hit multiple survivors when they are close to each other and you don't miss or are stunned or hit someone twice.
- You see survivors that are around you.
- Make them mend so they waste 12 seconds of their time.
- You can have a first hit.
As you can see it is worth to use their power 100% *BEING VERY VERY SARCASTIC
But don't be afraid, you have 5% more movement speed now while walking normally, seems a good trade.
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@Volfawott said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352906#Comment_1352906
Incredibly sad but true a lot of the things in Legion rework completely overlap each other which is why Legion such a terrible place now.
Moon walk exploit.
To counter this they made deep wounds not go down in The Terror radius ( this still lot of problems until they made it so it doesn't go down when you're running) this change alone pretty much cancelled out the moonwalk exploit at the time
But for some reason they also decided to take away Legion's ability to see blood which seems still incredibly stupid for a non lethal power. This was also to incentivise you to go and get other people rather than tunneling the person who stabbed with frenzy however considering you couldn't moonwalk exploit anymore this was pointless.
The problem with moonwalking was already addressed you didn't have to cripple the tracking capability
Lack of frenzy counterplay.
Frenzy was pretty much very difficult to counter as it was super easy to get lots of reward with very little effort and not much the survivors could do to mitigate it. So the missed swing penalty was introduced so now if a survivor was able to dodge the swing they get rewarded.
4 seconds stun I don't need to go over this post go through it enough
However they then also added the fact that the bar had to be fully charged up for you too to use frenzy again which would have been perfectly fine if they didn't keep the problem of hitting a survivor outside of frenzy and has a penalty to your frenzy meter.
One or two of these by themselves wouldn't have been a problem however all four of them combined gave Legion a lot of punishment and negatives for a non lethal power especially when all the lethal powers at the time didn't have the as severe downsides for example phasing chainsaws. (even now they don't)
Speed
What some reason despite making feral frenzy non lethal they decided to make it a lot slower and remove the add-ons that speed it up changing them with increased killer detection range which in itself is terrible.
To compensate the increased to the duration of feral frenzy and let's be honest the duration increase was pointless you lost so much effective power from the speed reduction that the extra duration did nothing you still had a massive net loss.
Hell even now outside of using play with your food there is no way you can increase movement speed like you could with the add-ons.
Overall:
In the end the legion "rework" I felt like they just got a list of all the complaints and immediately just threw a bunch of nerfs in a pot without thinking how each of them would combined together.
I do at least appreciate that are starting to fix a lot of the overboard nerf smacking they did
Increasing the movement speed in frenzy which was something a lot of legion mains asked for as the duration boost wasn't helping.
They increased the Vault speed which just made vaulting as Legion feel so much better after it was so clunky with the rework
They gave you the ability to see blood and scratch marks when frenzy the ends instead of fatigue ends this was a nice change but honestly I don't get why they don't just add the ability to see scratch marks and blood stains or at least just blood stains in frenzy as it's not that strong
but it's still not enough because they really smashed the Legion with the Nerf sledgehammer
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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@Aneurysm said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352954#Comment_1352954
Yeah, you guys have the glorious aim dressing too for one thing. Better not go for a swing if there's a hooked survivor nearby.
I was talking about those straight walls that are not that straight because their hitboxes have corners in the middle for some reason but that too sometimes.
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@Aneurysm said:
There should be a reward for using their power, like each successful frenzy hit lowers the stun time.
Also maybe the devs think one missed hit means losing all you power and getting stunned is fair but for those of us on console it isn't really.
Not even in pc it is fair. There are many factors that can make you miss a hit and lose all the snowball that you had.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1352913#Comment_1352913
I look forward to trying out updated Clown. I do hope this means killers who need it will get tweaks in the future. Like Legion.
I'm on PS4, and with the way the game plays punishing Legion for whiffing in Feral Frenzy is... well, it feels like the game is flipping me off for playing on console. Anything worse than the regular missed attack cooldown is just unnecessary. It's ridiculous to think that the devs went from no missed attack cooldown whatsoever to a missed attack stunning Legion for 4 seconds and taking him out of Frenzy. I mean, #########?? That's an extreme 180.
I'd really like to see Legion get fixed. I have some cool cosmetics for Julie and Susan that I'd like to wear, but I just hate playing as Legion. I always resort to being a powerless M1 killer when I try.
I think about that 180 that you talked about. Of course it was brainless to keep missing and getting no penalty but coming from no penalty to EXTREME penalty is really never a good idea.
I am trying now to use feral frenzy even if all survivors are injured just to put them mending and here's a tip: don't do it. I did it to prove a point and i was right- by the time that you hit the 2nd survivor the other one is finished mending so you basically do nothing with it.
I have the philosophy that you only get profit from FF if you hit at least 2 survivors and 1 of them is healthy. Otherwise they are a pure m1 killer.
Another 180 that comes to my mind is the fact that the most lethal and 2nd most flexible power in the game became the one with the 2nd most cooldown, is only worth in very specific scenarios and is ALWAYS non-lethal.
Playing on PS4 must be really rough.
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@TragicSolitude said:
In a knee-jerk reaction to the broken state in which he was released, the devs over-corrected for Legion. Instead of tweaking a couple things here or there to balance him, they nerfed him in multiple ways that left him hobbled and just because he's limping at 4.6 m/s doesn't mean it's not limping.
The stun is too long, and whiffing shouldn't take him out of Feral Frenzy, a missed attack cooldown would be more than enough given you're losing time during a power that's already too short if survivors are spread out.
I 100% agree with you. The devs thought that being a 4.6 m/s killer was too much lethality and i don't know why. Being a pure 4.6 killer you become too much predictable.
It would be fine if they did that but tried to correct the changes as soon as possible. Feral Frenzy only got non-loopable in tiles that you weren't looped normally after 7 months by increasing the vault and movement speeds.
To change the penalty they should've done/do:
- Missing a hit puts you into fatigue BUT doesn't drop the bar.
OR
- Missing a hit drops a portion of the power gauge (like 50% or something).
We are taking baby steps in the right way tho. I hope they start to pay more attention to things like these which they are starting to with, for example, clown not having a movement speed penalty after throwing a bottle which made no sense to be in the game.
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@CashelP14 said:
This is too true.
I still think that they won't change it even after someone proves that this is really badly balanced tho :/
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@dbarranco said:
I agree.
Its incredible how many things like these are in the game. Legion's add-ons also suck.
I also experimented frank's mixtape and the scratched ruler combo. If the survivor is just super close to you and doesn't run, you need 1:12 seconds to down them. Now imagine this with a running survivor that will make everything for you not to catch him.
Stab wounds study is just useless.
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The creator of this post (my friend) has a very cool and dynamic hat.
He also isn't quite sure how to deal with camping, but he's getting the hang of it xD
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Why not doing it only 1 month after the matchmaking is changed? You can get more accurate stats at that time.
But to answer your question try legion, clown and leatherface, imo they have the worst base powers in the game and you really need perks.
Good luck :)
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1295369#Comment_1295369
Kk. Fixed. Now requires a basic attack and triggers regression.
And the perk means if you ambush someone that is exposed or injured you can keep your momentum to go after anyone else there.
Its cool now. There's no need to remove everything, just maybe 1 or 2 things changed make the other parts blanced. I get it :)
Edit: I still think it should have a minor cooldown like 15 seconds OR reduce the time effect of the perk to 8 or 10 seconds. I think 15 causes those weird cases where the survivor has been hiding for a lot of time and is still penalized (being hit after 13 seconds for example).
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1292009#Comment_1292009
Added the Perks and addons. Any of that potential now less hidden?
Feedback wanted as always of course
Add-ons:
"If you down a Survivor while in darkness form you will have no basic attack cooldown" isn't this one very situational?
Perks:
Peer into History - If you down or injure a Survivor within 15 seconds of them working on a generator, that generator will explode instantly regressing by 10%/15%/20%. (note: does not trigger regression over time)
I think this perk is just way too overpowered. It has no cooldown and no power/basic attack restriction (ex: 2 feral frenzy hits would be overwhelming), no cooldown and most importantly the values are a little high imo.
A little side note for the perk - The devs like slowdown perks not to have value with each other so the perk should actually start the regress of the generator it doesn't have sinergy with pop goes the weasel or surge, for example.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1291954#Comment_1291954
Sorry for being late, I've been dealing with personal things that have been stressing me out.
Personally, I think its interesting and seems pretty cute. However, I don't see myself enjoying this version of Legion. Chaining hits as Legion is probably the most fun thing to do, so having a shorter power duration really hinders my ability to have fun. You did compromise by allowing Frenzy to be lethal towards injured survivors not affected by Deep Wound, but there are just too many downsides in my opinion. Little things like losing your entire power when you manually end Frenzy (while for balance purposes), doesn't make me want to use it. Again, the idea itself is good, but I don't personally want to play any other Legion, than the Legion we currently have.
Hope your things have been solved already.
You didn't quite understand the rework, this legion can also chain hits.
As stated above, there are 2 frenzies: Feral Frenzy (the lethal one) and Beastial Frenzy (the chaining hits one that lasts exactly the same as FF now) so there are 2 playstyles too.
Feral Frenzy can also down people with deep wounds, otherwise it would be too bad.
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@BattleCast said:
I feel like a rework of Legion's power is unnecessary. Legion's kit is fine as it is, and it only needs number tweaks and QoL changes.
It's a cool concept though.
Thanks for the feedback.
I have something to ask you: why don't you feel like legion is a very stale killer with no room for big plays or interactive gameplay for both sides?
What makes a match as legion/against legion different from other killers?
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@Gomolazoli said:
It’s probably allright but I could’t read it after you said he can not vault pallets. Littearly the only reason I mained them from the start and always made a rank 1 worthy build on them regardless of what “rework„ they got.
Then read everything.
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@LALYTHIA said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1292077#Comment_1292077
"Not everything is easy for survivors"
😂🤣
Most things aren't, my friend. Most things are not.
I play both sides equally, i know that most things aren't easy(i hate dedicated servers with killers that have bad ping). Survivor side requires a lot of skill too, most than some killers.
I just wanted you to get the point 😁
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@OhMyWords said:
Nullspec, you have made intricate ideas but this is the best one yet. +1
normally i would place hashtag fix legion but our movement has got almost enough. We just need the miss penalty off.
Thank you for your kind words <3
I still feel that legion is far enough from being a little better and more fun. I feel like the 4 seconds stun and just, generally speaking, stale gameplay are the worst parts about Legion at the moment.
One step at a time tho.
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@LALYTHIA said:
This does not sound any more fun for survivors. Current Legion is a monotony of mending/healing. The suggestion is: mend, don't heal...except now he'd be able to put you into dying state by chasing you at his higher than average run speed? He can't jump a palette (one of his cooler features to see as survivor) but breaking a palette wastes none of his power? I don't see where this would be any improvement from the survivor perspective. What am I missing?
Many things may help adress your concerns, but still keep in mind that not everything can be that easy for survivors.
- Legion can only make survivors mend if they hit a healthy survivor first.
- Missing a hit puts the power on a 7.5 sec cooldown or more
- Legion cant vault pallets in Feral Frenzy but can vault them while in Beastial Frenzy
- Tracking is very niche in both stances
- He is a 4.4 m/s killer, so the power makes him faster for a short time to compensate
- Hitting someone out of the power drops the bar to 0
If breaking pallets would waste his power, it would be pretty useless imo. It only lasts 7 seconds and after that youre a 4.4 m/s killer with a 15 secs cooldown power.
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I like the killer but i feel like it is a little underwhelming. Althought i also feel like there's some "hidden" potential in that killer.
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@NuclearBurrito said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1287637#Comment_1287637
That's funny. Meanwhile I've made a post detailing exactly why I find 110% Killers to be fundamentally better than 115% Killers.
The reasoning being that by being 110% they can afford to lean into their power more for chases and general mobility, which allows them to break up the usual chase dynamics for something more interesting.
I feel exactly the same. Simple m1 killers (looking at you legion) are usually very boring and stale. Being much dependant on a power makes the game more interactive and refreshing for both sides.
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@Tatariu what do you think? Youre passionate for legion like me and many others. I wonder what you think of this.
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@shukitax said:
I like the small bufs to lower TR outside frenzy and increase on frenzy to further aura reading+the addons who depletes the timer on base kit. The pallet vault/break seems fine and rewarding too.
- But i dont understand how you would justify this "Hitting a non-healthy Survivor puts the survivor in the dying state, depletes The Legion's entire power gauge and ends the power immediately." because as i read it you could simply see a injured surv a little far from you, you will trigger your frenzy to end the chase in a few seconds running faster than him and down it (He could break line of sight but in the open this becomes an easy down, and with recharge addons this can become pretty annoying). This will force a gameplan for survs meaning they need to heal ASAP because a 4 man injured team will get down faster than the light, and forcing healing with legion with YES slow the game down like a lot of killers want (im included) but it will be too much because against legion is losing your time
- If the idea was only when you trigger killer instint and i read it bad, then it makes some sense since you cant down an injured surv with deep wound instantly (also this opens new basement plays wich counters in some way borrow time on some case scenarios if you manage to injured the rescuer first).
Thanks for the feedbkack <3
But i dont understand how you would justify this "Hitting a non-healthy Survivor puts the survivor in the dying state, depletes The Legion's entire power gauge and ends the power immediately." because as i read it you could simply see a injured surv a little far from you, you will trigger your frenzy to end the chase in a few seconds running faster than him and down it (He could break line of sight but in the open this becomes an easy down, and with recharge addons this can become pretty annoying). This will force a gameplan for survs meaning they need to heal ASAP because a 4 man injured team will get down faster than the light, and forcing healing with legion with YES slow the game down like a lot of killers want (im included) but it will be too much because against legion is losing your time
4 things here:
1st- In the situation you described is a missplay by the survivor that has put himself injured in an open field fairly close to a killer. Also, the survivor can simply make legion miss a hit and he enters fatigue.
2nd- Wouldn't the same happen with a 4.6 m/s m1 killer?
3rd- The recharge add-ons don't stack because of the reason that you presented.
4th- Feral Frenzy doesn't last that long, lets do some math.
4*7= 28 meters.
5.2*7= 36.4 meters.
36.4-28=8.4 meters
The survivor must be relatively close to the Legion to take a hit.
Making a need for survivors to heal is good thing and don't forget that legion is a 4.4 m/s killer.
if the idea was only when you trigger killer instint and i read it bad, then it makes some sense since you cant down an injured surv with deep wound instantly (also this opens new basement plays wich counters in some way borrow time on some case scenarios if you manage to injured the rescuer first).
I don't understand what you mean here.
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@Bullettimegod said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1291340#Comment_1291340
Well with as wonky as hit boxers are now. That stun feels so bad. So anything to get rid of it would feel better.
I mean, instead of fatiguing, it would just drop like 33% of the bar. Just a small penalty that in some cases can make the difference.
I agree with the stun tho. Thats why i chose legion to be a 4.4 instead of a 4.6 killer so the fatigue is smaller.
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@Bullettimegod said:
I actually like this. It rewards me as a killer who loves chases. And as a survivor who loves being chased.
I have the same feeling about it too. I would want to know what you think about having a smaller penalty (instead of no penalty at all) when missing hits while in beastial frenzy. It brings more counterplay to it... but at the same time i feel like it has enough counterplay already.
Thanks for the feedback <3
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I love when people have OoO and im playing legion which is 90% of the time. Free hits and info :)
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I hate gas heaven. It has a huge rng game changer for both sides in the main building. And has huge dead zones with giant piles of cars that just block vision and make you do a giant trip to get someone that is right next to you.
Also it has a lot of bugs :/
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I don't think that you did anything wrong here so I hope the situation gets solved and you can finally shake your bunny ears again.
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@coppersly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1221023#Comment_1221023
That's the problem, the rework didn't make her take more skill to play, it only takes more patience. There is nothing new you can do, it is literally a limitation in every single conceivable way with no other positive in sight. So if nothing changed except less blinks per game, the skill involved didn't really change either. You just need ######### tons more patience than before.
This just reminds me of the legion rework. Except that you need skill to play now while m1ing but the power in itself just got destroyed. Just limitations over limitations, i feel your pain.
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@gatsby said:
I'm a Rank 2 Legion main. They're pretty much the only Killer that I play. The real key to Legion is Frenzy. You have to know when to spread the pain and when to cancel your power and commit to chases. Legion is generally a hit and run Killer. Your job is to chain hits with Frenzy (Discordance is super useful for finding people grouped up) and then you come back to them when they're hopefully still injured to finish the job.
You pretty much always need to get the first hit on a Survivor with your power because without the first hit, Leg is just a basic 115% movement speed Killer. Never under any circumstances commit to trying to down a person that isn't already injured it's a waste of your time.
I think the hardest thing for Legion is getting extremely comfortable with Frenzy's hitbox and mobility. Frenzy doesn't have a Lunge animation so you have to be right on top of Survivors to hit. Also, you really have to pay attention to your screen because you can't see scratches so it's easy to lose Survivors if you're not careful. Always wait to use Frenzy until you're close enough to Survivors that you won't lose them using the power too early can be a mistake.
Survivors will also do weird things while Legion is in Frenzy like 360s, window techs and immediately vaulting back, so you have to practice flicking and doing 180s to land hits... it's kind of like a sixth sense. Don't be surprised if Survivors knock you out of your power a lot before you've invested the time to get familiar with all the mindgames and BS. Legion is very unforgiving for missing Frenzy hits, so you have to get extremely good at reacting and predicting to their tactics.
Final tips. The Sketch add-ons that increase Frenzy's duration are the best. Use Frenzy to run to generators that are close to finishing even if you get knocked out of your power you'll usually scare them away and buy time. Use the Killer Instinct tracking to get an idea of where everyone is even if you don't immediately chase them... Legion can know a lot more than Survivors expect and they're much more subtle than a Killer like Doctor. You can really catch people off guard. Legion can kick generators and open lockers in Frenzy. Also, picking up a Survivor cancels Frenzy without the 4 second stun so slugging a Survivor and then hitting nearby people with Frenzy before you pick them up is a good use of time.
What do you mean by "Frenzy doesn't have a Lunge animation so you have to be right on top of Survivors to hit." ? Legion can lunge in feral frenzy and is a gigantic lunge because of the movement speed scaling on lunges. I always use this at the end of the frenzy to get +/- 6 more meters if i want to get close and most of the time lunging helps you get hits when the power is about to end. You can lunge even if the bar ends middle lunge, you will finish the lunge no matter what.
Edit: you can clearly see the animation of a frenzy lunge by the survivors' point of view.
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@AhoyWolf said:
Legion does have terrible stats without addons, and I think there is a big room for improvements, so here are some Legion buffs and QoL changes that will help Legion get better. (I will not count addons into these changes tho)
Feral Frenzy
Base-Kit
- Removed the cool-down penalty when hitting a Survivor while not in Feral Frenzy. (Was 50%)
This "feature" that only Legion has is now outdated, due to the amount of changes the Legion got, I think this penalty isn't necessary anymore.
Cool-down
- Feral Frenzy cool-down starts recharging at the beginning of the fatigue, not after. (Like Nurse's cool-down)
I think the 20 second cool-down is fine for Feral Frenzy, the problem is that the cool-down isn't actually 20 seconds, it's 24 seconds, due to the long fatigue, with this change the cool-down would be 20 seconds, like it's suppose to be.
Fatigue
- Decreased Feral Frenzy fatigue duration to 3 seconds from 4 seconds.
- Reduced the amount of "tunnel vision" while in the fatigue.
Legion currently loses a lot of distance due to the 4 second fatigue, decreasing the duration and reducing the "tunnel vision" should help Legion close the distance they lost while in the fatigue and keep track of the Survivor.
The "tunnel vision" before the patch 2.7.0 and now.
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/493/KBFCV40KQTXY.png
@Peanits @Almo please change it back like it was before the 2.7.0 update.
Power gauge
- Stabbing a Survivor while in Feral Frenzy that already has Deep Wounds will end Feral Frenzy, but it will not deplete your entire power gauge.
- Picking up a Survivor while Feral Frenzy is active will no longer deplete the entire power gauge.
- Missing an attack while in Feral Frenzy will no longer end Feral Frenzy, instead you will suffer the standart missed attack cool-down.
I never understood why is the Legion's power gauge so inconsistent, this should fix some inconsistency.
Deep Wounds
- Reduced the bleed-out timer to 15 seconds from 30 seconds.
With this change the Survivors will be actually forced to mend, instead of just fooling around and doing Generators until their timer hits the last 2 seconds.
If I missed something just let me know! :)
I agree with these changes i would just suggest for the missing hit to instead of what you propose, make them have the reduced cooldown but it drops 50% of the REMAINING power gauge. Ex: if you have left 25% of the bar, missing a hit will put your bar at 12.5%.
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@[Deleted User] said:
There are now four different versions of Legion, let's break them down.
Old Legion (v.1.0)
- 4.4 m/s + 24 meter terror radius.
- 5.28 m/s Frenzy speed.
- 0.9 second vaulting.
- 6 second duration.
- 15 second recovery.
- 3 second cooldown.
- Frenzy hits reduce Deep Wound time.
- Can miss attacks.
- Can see blood pools.
- Basic attacks deplete the entire power.
- Pallet stuns deplete the entire power.
- Frenzy attacks are basic attacks.
Gutted Legion (v.2.0)
- 4.6 m/s + 32 meter terror radius.
- 5.0 m/s Frenzy speed.
- 1.1 second, and 1.35 second vaulting.
- 10 second duration.
- 20 second recovery.
- 4 second cooldown.
- Frenzy hit cannot reduce Deep Wound time.
- Cannot miss attacks.
- Cannot see blood pools.
- Basic attacks deplete half of the power.
- Pallet stuns do not deplete the power, unless in Frenzy.
- Frenzy attacks are basic attacks.
Hybrid Legion (v.3.0)
- 4.6 m/s + 32 meter terror radius.
- 5.2 m/s Frenzy speed.
- 0.9 second vaulting.
- 10 second duration.
- 20 second recovery.
- 4 second cooldown
- Frenzy hits cannot reduce Deep Wound time.
- Cannot miss attacks.
- Cannot see blood pools.
- Basic attacks deplete half of the power.
- Pallet stuns do not deplete the power, unless in Frenzy.
- Frenzy attacks are special attacks.
Newest Legion (v.4.0)
- Same as Hybrid Legion, but can see blood pools and scratch marks during their cooldown.
Gameplay wise, I preferred Old Legion (v.1.0) because their power wasn't so linear. You had choice, and how you played altered the match entirely. The latest releases of Legion feels very linear, and offer no opportunities to change your strategy. That being said, if they were to rework the Deep Wound addons (Stab Wounds Study, Frank's Mixtape) into something fun and engaging, then I'm all in.
Many people cant see that new legion is not that bad competitively but in a fun way they are horrendous. Their power has nothing to offer besides chaining hits, having 3000 restrictions and then having a headache in the end. Like you said, you had a choice before.