NuclearBurrito
NuclearBurrito
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@NullSp3c said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/567137#Comment_567137
Why not both? They both seem really cool together and the roaring makes sound so that the m/s buuf to the frenzy doesn't become uncounterable when the survivors are doing a gen and don't know where you are.
@Nullsp3c it was actually designed as the otherway around.
The roar is required on it's own merits to create juking potential for the Survivors thus causing mindgames and making the Legions downsides meaningful while the movement speed increase is counterbalancing the self stun for use in movement.
Old Frenzy: 31.68m over 6 seconds.
New Frenzy: 50m over 10 seconds.
This frenzy: 33.6m over 6.75 seconds.
The average movement speed is about 5 M/S even though it's technically faster.
That being said if you actually do hit them then the refilled bar will give you the full effective 5.6 M/S with 67.2m over 12 seconds.
In any case just understand that with 5.28 you would only close the gap by 4.68 meters, so I increased the speed a bit so it's a relatively reasonable 6.6 meters which is pretty close to what it was before (7.68 meters) or 19.2 meters after you hit someone which is good to deal with Survivors that scatter and means that anyone you can see with Killer Instinct (remember 24 meter TR) can usually be reached even if they are running.
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One thing I would like to point out regarding this. Is that (from a practical standpoint not a definitional standpoint) in order for a Killer to be viable they need a LOT going for them.
Nurse's teleport means she can:
Get around the map quickly, ignore defenses and close gaps nearly instantaneously
Billies chainsaw:
Also get's around the map quickly, breaks pallets quickly and with less of an FoV shift and is an instant down
Hag:
Tracks areas, lets you instantly get a free hit usually, has mindgame potential, and lets you get around the map quickly
Spirit:
Provides free gen pressure (survivors gen tap when she's using her power), allows for a ton of survivor mindgames, closes a gap quickly, lets her get around the map quickly and can get gen grabs with addons.
Basically all of the Viable Killers have both fast map traversal and at least 2 other things going for them in a chase.
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@Kenshin said:
killers cant have anything nice i guess? before nerfing stull like that look into survivor items and addons.
@kenshin I mean other than instant heals we already did that.
IE: Instablind removal and BNP nerfs
I guess there is also keys but that's a fairly complicated issue (moreso than you would expect).
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@Redd said:
Can we please start referring to this by its proper name: Prayer Beads Necklace? There is another item in the game actually called Prayer Beads and the cognitive dissonance is driving me to shitpost.
Wait really? Which one?
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Have Prayer beads increase your terror radious and decrease your phase durration/speed such that without additional addons you don't move further than your terror radius when you phase.
Say for example Prayer beads makes your terror radius 32 meters and your phase movement speed is reduced to 160% (down from 176%). The total distance (6.4*5) is 32 meters meaning that you will hear the heartbeat in time to get to safety.
This means that in order to play gen grabber spirit you need to use additional perks and addons just to make up for the reduction in movement which makes it less practical (but still strong).
More importantly you can still use it for surprise attacks by using it to get closer to someone even when they are outside your terror radius, for example using it to get to someone on the edge of your TR would still benefit from prayer beads with this change.
And if you are using a gen grabber build with this then you would be giving up your strength in a chase if they manage to avoid the initial grab in one way or another.
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I see no problem with a knife toss up. Might be harder to animate but whatever.
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Debatable. Depends on who you ask.
Personally I put them on the same level.
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And we shall call it... Furtive chase 2.0
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@HatCreature said:
I'm kind of teetering back and forth between if this is better than Play With Your Food or not, the tokens for this is easier to get but the speed is slower and it lasts 1 second. PWYF lasts until you attack and requires leaving a chase your Obsession 3 times.
I think I would choose this over PWYF though, it wouldn't be meta but it would really fun to try out, yeet imagine this on Wraith when he uncloaks lol
Which means I did my job correctly!
This is meant to compliment Killers with "free hit" style powers rather than Strategic Killers who benefit more from PWYF.
One thing to note is that while PWYF stacks effect the speed boost given, these stacks effect the duration.
So with all 4 stacks it's 4 seconds (still far less than PWYF's forever)
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@moutray77 said:
Instead of 1 second why not 1.5 or 2 second per token. I feel like most of the times your more likely to have around 2-3 token at a time, because most people are more likely to keep going after the survivor they hit.
Maybe I buffing killer to much since I usually avoid Chase's when I can.
I thought about making you lose a totem when you also hook a survivor so there be a way to set it down to zero but felt it might punish killer too harshly for hooking a survivor.
A movement speed increase is a huge deal, and having it be always at the start of the chase is an even bigger deal.
It needs to be hard to get the full effect because that full effect is powerful. The difference between a 110% killer and a 115% killer in an M1 chase is massive and this is more than half of that effect in the form of a perk.
How long do you think you can loop a 118% Billy? Not that long I assure you. The way this is balanced is through having it activate in very short bursts, and even then only with some effort (aka: hitting a survivor and then leaving) making it a bit like PWYF.
It might be good to increase the maximum or tweak the cooldown or something. But I don't think the duration per token is the problem.
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Ok so since it's when you INJURE and not when you HIT a survivor, the Legion would get tokens from using Frenzy on a Healthy survivor but would not get further tokens from more hits.
You decide if that synergies with him or not. I think it does but not as much as it seems at first glance.
It does synergise well with thanataphobia and M&A as both of those perks promote healing. And it does have a strong early game synergy with Killers like Plague and Legion, but once everyone has been injured you need Survivors to heal.
And of course this perk does not synergise with slug builds.
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@Jdsgames said:
Nice perk Idea.
Thanks!
It would probably be countered by the no heal meta. But I'm not sure if that's a problem or not.
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bold of you to assume we trust these devs
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Because a funny
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I'm thinking he's going to be ether slightly stronger or slightly weaker than doctor.
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I mean he's stronger than before. But he's like low mid tier at best, which is still #########.
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There's more but that's the tldr version
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@Kilmeran said:
It's 4th of July here in the U.S., so I missed the stream. Anyone have cliff notes on Freddy?
@kilmeran
He can teleport to gens before they are repaired. It's a 5 second channel and it has a 45 second cooldown.
This cooldown is reduced by 15% per asleep survivor
Survivors fall asleep over 60 seconds and can wake up in 3 ways:
1 - Failing a skill check
2 - An awake survivor preforms a 4 second channel. Each time you wake someone up the channel doubles in length caping at 16 seconds
3 - You use a dream clock which will be on the opposite side of the map from where you fall asleep. This also gives you an extra 30 seconds of being awake
Freddy can also place snares which give a 15% hinder effect to asleep survivors who run over it. They also scream. He doesn't have a slowdown when placing them and they take 5 seconds to arm he can have up to 8 of them up at once.
Using an addon he can place fake pallets instead of snares which don't do anything when you throw them down so Freddy can ignore them but the Survivor still does the throw down animation (and thus stops moving)
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@KillermainBTWm8 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/562390#Comment_562390
It can only really create a standoff now if there is more than 1 person alive otherwise the killer can close the hatch and start egc then it will be a guessing game of is he going for the gates or does he have a key and is going to open the hatch.
I'm worried about multi-survivor standoffs. It's like old standoffs except ignoring it and letting them having means a 2k which is far more problematic
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@PolarBear said:
@NuclearBurrito This kind of "standoff" has been in the game forever, only difference is that the killer can no longer win it. If the hatch is closed it means that there are more than 1 survivor left or that the killer has closed the hatch, thus starting the egc timer.
BHVR should really take a look at existing items, addons and offerings. I can't even understand how moris and keys (opening the hatch mechanic) still exist in the game after 3 whole years.
@polarbear right now there is no standoff. The Survivor just auto wins, which sucks of course but it's preferable to a standoff.
Imagine 2 Survivors and the Killer standing by the hatch for 20 minutes because one of the Survivors has a key.
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Wouldn't that create a hatch standoff? Since the EGC timer doesn't start until after you close the hatch and so if a Survivor is on the hatch with a key then he can wait for you to hit them forever.
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@TheBean said:
My bet is that the Devs put Freddy right along the top with Billy and Nurse.
Main reason I think that is because he's been the butt of many jokes since his release, that I bet they go over the top on him and make him one of the most powerful.
That is my guess though.
@TheBean I doubt it but that would be great on so many levels.
If it happens I'ma laugh.
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Worse in terms of causing more of those problems
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@Maelstrom10 said:
Because micheal and ghostface can sneak up. If you back yourself into a wall against leatherface or hillbilly it's kind of your fault, yet ghostface and Micheal can potentially trap survivors and insta down them, with not so much as a wink of warning.
A lot of this has to do with the way maps are designed though. Take a tier one Myers with monitor, or ghostface (hell even Myers without monitor) there are rooms on both haddonfield and the preschool with one gen and one exit with no windows. Same principal with the game map and the bathroom. (The game map has cover though which prevents stalking unless the killer enters which towards the survivor a chance to escape.) In these situations the killer can sneak up on the room, and offer the survivor no chance of escape before they even know who or what the killer is.
It's just a matter of balance tbh due to map design. Thats not to say it wouldn't be nice to have no collision though, it would certainly be situational but a significant buff.
Doesn't all of this apply to Wraith as well except wraith is just worse?
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..
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@Entità said:
@NuclearBurrito What? The Nurse blinks at 333% speed, the Spirit phases at 176% speed. If the player doesn't use the power, they are playing very bad, but these killers have a lot of map pressure.
@Centernova Ruin doesn't last more than a minute at high ranks. :(
@Entità yes but those aren't their actual movement speeds.
The stat itself is 110% and 96% (not sure if it's that exactly or a little more/less).
Yes you're point is that they effectively move faster than other Killers, but the game doesn't actually know that. So in an algorithm sense that doesn't matter.
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@AStupidMonkeyy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/560711#Comment_560711
@NullSp3c Of course I read it. It sucks. Why would I want a slower mend time? Just make it 20 seconds and make it so they can't do interactions except windows and pallets. Increase the vault speed for both to what it use to be. Make a self stun only take half the power away and make it only 3 seconds. Now Legion has legit stall, he isn't slow as ######### and can get a down without having to wait ages to do anything. What you propose is a lot of tedious ######### that doesn't actually do much but seems to add nerfs.
Literally no one likes taking the time to mend. So the less time we make them spend mending while making sure it still works as an ability the better.
This has an even shorter self stun and doesn't take away any of his power just to stop using it.
The nerfs are all countered by important buffs that would otherwise make him OP on their own.
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@NullSp3c said:
No problem, I was really disappointed when it said it was closed, that was why I reposted it.
I just don't agree with the mend timer that is 60 seconds, it is too big imo. The balanced value should be determined by only playing because on paper it seems good but in gameplay you'll see that it is too long.
Either way the post was too old so there are more people now concerned about legion and maybe they will help bringing him back to his fun state.
It's 60 charges not 60 seconds.
The exact amount of time is variable. It's between 60 seconds and 20 seconds depending on distance.
I'm fine with addon reworks. Franks actually could effect the minimum charge drain.
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@LCGaster said:
This would bring old Legion's problems back
All they need in my opinion is faster or longer lasting FF, faster vault in FF, slightly shorter stun, and faster recharge
The power right now is boring and not worth using, making it faster or last longer would at least make it useful for map pressure and you will be able to catch up to survivors before it ends
The other changes I propose would make it more fun and less frustrating to use
@LCGaster the the entire change is specifically tailored to solve his problems:
Specifically lacking counter play and lacking kill power.
Besides those 2 what problems are you referring to? Or are you contesting that this solves those 2 problems? In which case please elaborate.
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What was the intended use and what was the abuse it was actually used for?
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Thank you for reposting this <3
I never wanted my original post to be closed
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For the record in a chase it resolves like having the pre-nerf cooldown addons base kit once you are in Killer Instinct.
2 seconds is enough for the Survivor to get an 8 meter head start which can then be covered in 20 seconds. That time is lowered by lunge range, bloodlust, the fact that he doesn't go to a dead stop on stun ect. But while assuming that none of those factors apply it's 20 seconds.
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TLDR make regression different depending on the Killer.
Because Spirit is a 110% Killer and Nurse is even slower so having it be tied to the speed stat would not produce the desired result
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@Black_Fence said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/559230#Comment_559230
I didn't say it was a bias that EGC is a thing did I? I said it is ridiculous that EGC got made a minute shorter so that killers didn't have to witness 3 minutes of teabagging yet killers can teabag someone for TWICE as long as EGC is currently. Plus when there is only 1 person left and in dying state with no way to get up (again unless you are using really specific perks) and a killer teabagging you you can't do ANYTHING. Killers can force survivors out with EGC even if survivors are on the hook or downed which makes a lot of rescues that could have happened no longer possible.
I don't hate EGC, quite the opposite I think it is great and really helps move games alone that would otherwise take forever (hatch stand offs sucked ass). However it is a double standard that Devs made a teabagging window smaller for one side yet let the other side have double the time to be toxic.
The EGC was made a minute shorter so that it would put more pressure on the Survivors, since 3 minutes is long enough that every survivor can basically ignore the timer making it meaningless in the average game. While 2 minutes puts a lot more pressure on the Survivors and thus makes it more tense and meaningful and less of a joke.
While the EGC as a whole is there to prevent hostage taking, making it 2 minutes instead of 3 is not because of toxicity.
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Keep in mind. I'm not saying your complaints are illegitimate. Just that the 8% thing isn't the cause of the issue and thus reverting it won't solve the issue.
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This has nothing to do with the 8% thing.
Even if the detection size was a single pixel in the center of the screen they would still be able to spot you while in cover as an inherent property of the mechanic.
The 8% makes execution easier but a sufficiently good Survivors such as a red rank will spot you whenever possible no matter what size the detection is testing for.
Getting spotted when you are behind a wall is also not related to the 8% thing and is again an unrelated issue.
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That has nothing to do with the detection size. I have no idea why that worked for him.
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Survivor
While yes Survivors do have the advantage over Killers. In general they also have the higher skill cap.
Or in other words it's like asking if Nurse is easier than Leatherface, she isn't but if you get good at her you will have better results compared to Leatherface who is easier but doesn't have as good results.
Survivor vs Killer is a bit like that. You can't be braindead as Survivor or else you will get crushed, that's what happens every time I try to play Survivor myself. But mastering Killer (unless Nurse or Spirit) won't get you very far even if getting to that point in the first place.
That's why Killer's do so much better in low ranks, a bad Killer can beat a bad Survivor even though a great Killer can't usually beat a great Survivor.
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Even games that don't have a ranking system eventually have to balance for high level play. The difference being that those games can take much longer to do so without problems. The reason being that as the game ages the player base gets better and better.
Take the game throne of lies as an example. When the game first came out one of the teams was far stronger than the others, however their winrate didn't reflect this because mistakes meant more for that team. As the patches went on and on high skill high reward became nerfed as the playerbase was more able to fully utilize those mechanics for far too much power at far too much consistency, and thus many nerfs and buffs later you have a game that is relatively balanced for high ranks despite not having ranks at all.
Considering that this game DOES have ranks, there is no reason not to balance around those ranks.
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@gambit92 said:
Thats a dumb ass comment you guys are all the same. Its pretty ######### funny you guys will never be pleased. 2 pallets per map.... Oh man d strike still needs improving lmao. They can do better. Fact of matter is if your a good survivor or killer you wouldnt be complaining. I never have when you complain about design more than bugs shows your #########. You CAN go play something else if you complain that much. Say Friday the 13th. 😆
@gambit92
Couldn't I use that argument to counter ANY balance change request so long as the game has had at least 1 balance change?
How do you differentiate someone complaining about a problem and someone complaining due to lack of skill and someone who lacks skill complaining about a real problem anyways?
Since all 3 of those are possibilities at least in principle.
Simply claiming that the game has a problem doesn't make you bad at the game. And being bad at the game doesn't make what you say wrong, at best it's fallacy fallacy and at worst it's ad-hominum.
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@Johnny_XMan said:
"And what does that first sentence even mean? Whos paying the price? The only person paying the price is Ghost Face since the Survivor can just see them 1 meter away behind a wall if they're in Night Shroud. There is no counter to OoO with Ghost Face, end of story, you either chase them to get rid of them, or they stick around to ruin the entire match."
Literally means what it does. So just because you can't properly stalk, they should just trash OoO... even though it wasn't a problem (according to you) until Ghostface.
"Sneaking up on someone isn't stalking them, you have that term twisted. Yes, I can still stalk people when they spotted me, that's common knowledge. I main Myers, I know this all too well. That isn't sneaking up on someone though, sneaking up on someone is getting the drop on them when they're not expecting it. I have zero clue why you think what you said is grounds for "sneaking up on someone" that's just regular chasing at that point..."
Sneaking up meaning "When They Are Not Looking At You" Survivors don't see you 100% of the time you're in a match. I main Myers too and I've literally been able to grab survivors before I hit T1. That's the sneaky mentality I'm talking about.
Ghostface can do what Myers can within seconds, and yet No One complained that Myers has to face OoO survivors. But in your opinion, you shouldn't have to chase a survivor who can constantly see you because you just want to pick who you want to chase? Hmmm Ok.
Yes I'm sure that the Killer that is immune to OoO will be able to get a gen grab. No one here is doubting that stealth is a thing that can exist.
The issue is that OoO is too effective against specifically ghostface. We aren't trying to nerf in into the ground or anything. In fact, making it tied to the TR is even a buff in some specific situations where the TR exceeds 32 meters such as a doctor build.
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I mean she's not even that bad if you run thanataphobia. She's not top tier or anything but she's one of the better Killers.
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The perks are only barely comparable.
While PGTW is likely to buy you more time in terms of the raw numbers (so long as you get at least 5 hooks), math isn't everything here.
Ruins weakness of being a hex totem is also it's greatest strength. While if it goes down quickly you will be down a perk, if it stays up survivors will often spend quite a bit of time looking for it. Far longer than the slowdown from the perk itself causes.
On the other hand, PGTW has no power through option. So long as you use it right it's just a flat 20 second stall per hook, which is powerful in it's own right.
I say take PGTW if you are confident with your Killer and Ruin if you are either still new with the Killer or if you aren't going against red ranks.
That or just take both. They are great perks for a reason and their effects stack nicely.
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@ElusivePukka said:
I mean.. based on the achievements on Steam: 3.8% of players get to rank 1 on survivor, 2.1% on killer. Only 9.4% of survivors get to rank 10, only 5.5% of killers too.
Dead by Daylight has had a 75,044 player peak. That means:
- 7054 Rank 10 or higher Survivors
- 4127 Rank 10 or higher Killers
And in those totals, only
- 2851 have ever reached Rank 1 as Survivor
- 1575 have ever reached Rank 1 as Killer
All this against, in that 75,044 total, 67990 people who have never reached rank 10 Survivor and 70917 who have never reached rank 10 Killer.
I'm comfortable saying we should rebalance around purple ranks, so people can push to be better, but expecting people to have to 'git guud' to the level of people in the top 1% of hours invested is a lil bit crazy.
Also peek player refers to active users and not total uses (otherwise that number would never go down)
Since red ranks players likely stick around longer than any other playerbase, that means that the 3.8% (which is out of the total player count) of players represent far greater than 3.8% of those 75,000 players.
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@ElusivePukka said:
I mean.. based on the achievements on Steam: 3.8% of players get to rank 1 on survivor, 2.1% on killer. Only 9.4% of survivors get to rank 10, only 5.5% of killers too.
Dead by Daylight has had a 75,044 player peak. That means:
- 7054 Rank 10 or higher Survivors
- 4127 Rank 10 or higher Killers
And in those totals, only
- 2851 have ever reached Rank 1 as Survivor
- 1575 have ever reached Rank 1 as Killer
All this against, in that 75,044 total, 67990 people who have never reached rank 10 Survivor and 70917 who have never reached rank 10 Killer.
I'm comfortable saying we should rebalance around purple ranks, so people can push to be better, but expecting people to have to 'git guud' to the level of people in the top 1% of hours invested is a lil bit crazy.
@ElusivePukka
Expecting people to "git gud" and balancing for red ranks are not the same thing.
This is a multiplayer game so as long as there are people at most ranks at any given moment we don't need to worry about that.
All we need to do is make sure that both sides have a roughly equal difficulty curve.
After all. If high rank survivors have a higher kill rate does that mean that high rank killers have a lower kill rate? Or in other words as you get better at killer your ability to complete your objective is going down?
If the game is balanced then the escape rate should be roughly the same at all ranks, because Survivors who are better at escaping will be facing Killers who are better at killing and vice versa.
If we succeed at doing that (or at least getting close enough) then why would that mean low rank survivors would have a problem? They are still escaping trials often since the Killers they are facing won't be using their tools as well as the high rank Killers.
Raising the skill cap for Killers or lowering the skill cap for Survivors doesn't break the game at low ranks.
Now of course there is a bunch of issues with the ranking and matchmaking systems themselves. But that's a separate (although related) issue.
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You guys do need to realize that balancing for top ranks doesn't mean ignoring the other ranks.
There are ways to make sure that a given change will effect some ranks more than others. And no I don't mean by changing the game rules depending on your rank.
Basically there is just one assumption you need to make:
High level players will do what is optimal while low level players will do what is easy.
So if you can identify what is optimal and what is easy, and then balance both of them up against each other (optimal survivor play is balanced against optimal killer play and easy survivor play is balanced against easy killer play) then you have a game that is balanced for the high level but remains fun at the low ranks.
For example, if a Killer buff makes the game too hard for low ranks, then that means we need more mechanically difficult interactions or more punishment on failing existing interactions.
The Legion change is a good example. Specifically the stun he gets when missing an attack, an Optimal Killer will never be stunned by that, however a new Killer will often misjudge distances and miss. Thus this change will mostly only effect low to mid ranks (yes console is an exception but still)
Another approach is to buff low skill actions but keep them worse than what the optimal outcome is. Such as making good skill checks give a 1% progression bonus or reducing the failed skillcheck penalty.
There is also QoL changes that make things easier to execute without changing the mechanical interactions themselves. For example the ghostface change that made detecting him easier to pull off. Or the indication addons for doctor and nurse. Plus a number of subtle UI things that make it easy to know what is doing what where otherwise only the high level players would have that information. These changes don't effect the balance of the game but still will improve the performance of low skill players.
However, none of these tricks will work for the higher ranks. The only thing that will make the high ranks balanced is just making a balanced game. That's why you need to balance around the high ranks, because low rank suffering can be fixed independently.
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I wouldn't say that these being legit strategies makes them fair.
But it's not your job to be fair.
It's like using instant heals. It's unfair but you should do it anyways because why wouldn't you? Unfair does not mean "OMG toxic and stupid!" It just means not fair. As a gamer playing a video game it is your job to make the game as unfair as you can for your opponent in order to counteract him trying to do the same.
Asking if something is fair or not only matters in the context of making changes to the game, it is meaningless for questioning player behavior.
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I just think it needs a numbers buff.
5 or 6% instead of 4%
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Not that you're ultimately wrong.
But people often do complain about Leatherface hook camping
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I would just make it only appear the first time you hit level 50 per prestige per killer