NuclearBurrito
NuclearBurrito
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@Eguzky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/552578#Comment_552578
If they reveal GF, it means their magic 3rd person camera that was never meant to counter Killer Powers had line of sight while they stayed safe 10000000% behind a wall without even the slightest shred of anything showing.
Because of this camera, Ghost Face's power should NEVER have been made with a 'just look at him' counter in mind. This will ALWAYS benefit the players who have a floating 360 degree view.
This is WHY Killers don't have a third-person camera; it's a handicap. It makes them harder to play.
Which means this camera is a hard counter to any attempt to ever stealth as GF.
Which means he should not be countered by just. bloody. looking. at. HIM!
Ok sure. But if he isn't knocked out of stealth then why would he ever not be in stealth.
Or in otherwords. If I can't be forced out of stealth, then why as ghostface would I ever willingly not be in stealth?
For pig or myers it's because I need the speed. Wraith and Freddy it's because I need to actually attack them. What's Ghostfaces reason?
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@Eguzky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/552555#Comment_552555
Except Night Shroud works EXACTLY like The Pig's stealth.
His stalk is separate, but tied in (IE: He can't stalk without Shrouding).
So what if he can night shroud forever? That won't break him, and will be LESS powerful if you alter his Stalk to compensate, which I suggested.
The Pig can crouch forever, and has no reason not too.
Meyer's and GF share the reasons to Stalk/Not Stalk, so nothing gained or lost there.
The main problem is that he has 2 things, and He. Can't. Do. Them.
I just wish the Devs would respond to these outcries of how utterly UP GF is. We see them reply to questions and bugs..but they seem to actively AVOID any thread about Killer balance. They never respond, and it feels like they just don't care that he's yet ANOTHER Killer neutered by Survivor-biased gameplay.
Just once, I'd love to see 'Yeah, we could take another look at GF/<insert killer name here>' or the more important 'We've seen the complaints' followed by any reasons they have for why or why not changing things right now.
Pig ABSOLUTELY has a reason not to crouch forever.
Specifically lower movement speed, pig can't move at full speed while crouching.
Ghostface however can absolutely move at full speed while in stealth, it's what makes him special compared to other stealth Killers who either move at reduced speed (Pig and Myers) or can't attack in stealth (Wraith and Freddy)
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@Eguzky said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/552537#Comment_552537
I made suggestions instead of removing it.
I mean, removing their ability to break it makes it like The Pig and halves it's power STILL with my suggestions.
You can't stop Meyer's Stalking. You can't MAKE The Pig stand up. You can't FORCE The Doctor to switch modes.
Why did Ghost Face get a pass on being so easy to abuse and bully? It's not balance, or all those other characters would be OP to high hell.
You did remove it. If this goes through then why would Ghostface ever not be in stealth?
Yes you can't stop Myers from stalking or whatever, but he does have a reason not to just hold M2 the whole game, same with Pig crouching, there is a reason for the Pig to not crouch and for the doctor to switch modes and for the Spirit to not phase and for the Huntress/Clown to not throw a hatchet/bottle ect.
Every Killer has a reason to not use their power, sure some Killers still are using there power a lot of the time anyways such as Nurse and Billy, but even they have to be smart with their timing or else their power will do more harm than good, or at the very least less good than it otherwise could have.
Night shroud's effects however are purely positive and can in theory be used forever. Right now this is the only power like that. Every other power has either a slowdown, opportunity cost or both.
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Btw, a reason to not use your power doesn't have to mean it has a downside.
For example having it be on a cooldown and giving it a timer instead of letting you use it forever would qualify (even if it probably wouldn't be the best solution)
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@Eguzky said:
That's fine; downvote without replying.
All that says is that I'm right & those of you doing it have no argument, but don't want a change precisely BECAUSE he's so easy to bully.
(Bloody forums! I can't bold or un-bold half of what I type anymore. WTH?)
Yeah I hate when people do that.
Anyways, it's healthy for Killers to always have a reason NOT to use their powers (same for Survivors and active ability's when applicable) since it creates a layer of strategy that wouldn't exist if the Killer could just always be using their power without thinking hard about it.
Having Survivors be able to break you out of Night Shroud is one such reason to not use your power, and right now it's practically the ONLY reason. If there were other reasons to not use Night Shroud then yes it would be BS for Survivors to knock you out, but there isn't so it's not.
If you want to adjust how easy it is to knock him out, or replace it with a different mechanic that serves a similar purpose than that's fine.
But don't just remove it entirely.
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THIS is why I think ghostface is fundamentally different from other Killers.
You don't need to deal with loops, but at the same time you don't counter them.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/551349#Comment_551349
DbD has already established itself as a game that allows you to play whoever and whatever you want. This would create a major shitstorm, and for good reason.
Sure sure. That particular aspect wouldn't work. But the more arctype focus with how identity v handles things maybe could work somehow?
Probably not but eh.
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Also League of Legends does not have variable team sizes. The games are always 5v5 no matter how many people you initially qued with.
The only reason why SWF is a problem in DBD is because Survivors don't have the means of communicating with each other by default. In games like League this is a non-issue since that communication exists for everyone no matter how many people you que with.
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If a SWF ques with 3 players then where does the 4th player come from?
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@Hag.is.Dtier said:
Identity V is even worse than this game. Hundreds of pallets, infinite loops, broken characters like prospector and perfumer, ciphers are even easier to do, hunters are forced to camp (boring). It aldo runs like crap in some regions including Europe. Identity V should learn from dbd not the other way round.
Now now. Just because the game is otherwise bad doesn't mean it get's EVERYTHING wrong.
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@Orion said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/551308#Comment_551308
Until everyone plays the characters that make chases as miserable as possible for killers, which severely offsets the whole "slow gen progress" thing.
@Orion With one exception all of the characters could only be selected once per match. So only 1 Survivor could use the Super good at chases survivor.
There is even a banning system for ranked matches.
Plus it's a debuff of like 30%.
Even with all of that though there are more than 5 Survivors that are good in chases. Like I said the specifics were unbalanced. But fundamentally the system is really cool.
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I actually do think there is quite a bit this game could learn from identity V.
For example I think the persona system is superior to DBD's perk system.
And that while unbalanced, the character system is in theory more interesting than what DBD has.
For example, take Forward.
He's able to stun the Hunter, dash really fast and far, vaults faster than other survivors and pallet stuns by him last longer. Not to mention he struggles out much quicker.
However he's kept in check by the fact that he is much slower at making gen progress, meaning that the Killer will often just ignore him in favor of other Survivors entirely.
Compare that to a Survivor using Dead hard and other chase oriented perks, the Killer will have no idea which survivor's are running it before hand and if the Killer tries to ignore them in favor of other survivors they will just go on gens with no downside.
Using this kind of system Identity V can have a much larger variety of mechanics without ruining the games integrity
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No we can't.
The universe conspires against it.
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Diversion stunning the Killer? Definitely not, way too good especially with SWF.
Anyways these perks and many others totally need some love. I don't like your specific solutions but they are definitely weak perks.
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@Tsulan said:
Killer can chase only 1 person at a time. Sure he can chase them away from the gens, but once he starts chasing someone to down him, the others go back to the gens. It's 1vs4
On low ranks you can put on pressure as killer. But on high ranks, the killer is under pressure.
^this
With the possible exception of Legion, Hag and Trapper, gen pressure requires you to first start and complete a full chase until you've downed someone. Until you do at least 3 people will not be pressured at any given moment.
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@KillermainBTWm8 said:
By making this thread you are complaining about us complaining therefore I shall complain about you complaining about us complaining about the game and you will complain about me complaining about you complaining about people complaining about things they are bad at for this thread and I will continue to complain about this thread okay?
This reply to this thread is stupid so I'm going to complain about it
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Then how is the Killer supposed to stop the last survivor from escaping with the hatch?
Simply trying to down the Survivor before he can reach the hatch is extremely unreliable and RNG dependent. It would be an automatic win the for the Survivor the second they get close to the hatch during what should be the Killer's strongest moment.
Remember, a good Survivor never has to deal with the hatch, but a good Killer ALWAYS has to deal with the hatch. So it's more important for the Killer to have tools to deal with the hatch than it is for the Survivor to use it.
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Needs a lower cooldown
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@toxicmegg Spirit and Nurse are the exceptions to the rule. Try playing Wraith or something at red ranks
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In any case. The point of this is to give a reason to not gen rush.
@twistedmonkey ANY mandatory secondary objective is just glorified extra generator time. Since that secondary objective can be rushed too. At that point why not just have it be a 100 second flat bonus time?
This is not trying to be that since we can just actually have extra generator time.
The point here is that the only thing that stops people from rushing the main objective ASAP is the promise of having better odds of success from waiting to do it later. (by powering up first)
Besides, an important thing to note is that it might be a good idea to cleanse an Effigy just to deny the Killer the MS boost.
Just imagine trying to face a 125% Freddy (since each Effigy is worth 2.5% MS to the Killer). Leaving the Killer to get that bonus is likely to hurt you in the long run.
Not to mention the fact that it also gives you super quick heals.
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@twistedmonkey said:
Mobility killers would have an advantage as they would be the ones who can look for the totems faster.
Killers like Huntress or hag won't really see much benefit from the buffs it it makes them just a normal m1 killer and the time it takes to find them would be better off used chasing and downing imo.
I am not sure about the buffs overall as a decent swf will find the killer and still keep the killer in a chase for a minute or two while communicating that it's safe to do gens so the killer doesnt have time to get the totems as every second already counts.
100s is nothing in that time frame really if versing good players with each one on a gen and comms then become an even more powerful tool.
It's still also an optional objective which doesn't solve the issue of gens being to fast the more you rank up if they chose not to do it as 20s versus 14s isn't a huge deal per survivor per gen.
Good killers will kill quicker and others will still complain as they can't keep up if the survivors do chose to do the totems and they can find any it's more of a rng scenario on who finds them first, I can't see any survivor actively looking for them for an extra 20s of time but rather do them only if they happen upon them and killers would sacrifice gen time over finding them.
I'd rather they added more objectives as you rank up like picking up fuel, repairing a power line or picking up parts etc something interactive without giving any buffs as that way it's just an actual objective instead of it being optional.
I would like to point out that Mobility Killer's don't get much out of increasing their base MS anyways.
Like as spirit why would I waste time using my power to increase my speed when not using my power. When I could instead use that time downing survivors with that power?
Same for Nurse and to a MUCH lesser extent Billy too.
Legion's power isn't very good for this sort of thing so he won't get much of an advantage either.
That just leaves wraith who needs it TBH.
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Bump
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So this is an updated version of a secondary objective idea I had awhile ago.
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@AshleyWB said:
When you want major buffs and reworks I hope you don't mean, give garbage killer players the tools to win easily. It should be a challenge for both sides.
I don't speak for everyone of course. But whenever I say needs major buffs/reworks I mean to bring them in line with Killers like Spirit and Hag.
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@Nescau_Fernando said:
https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/900/3R8WNU5ODL25.jpg
Red is viable against good survivors (lethality + mobility/map control).
Orange is not quite there yet (have lethality, but lack mobility/map control).
Yellow...yikes. Let's just say they each have a lot of problems.
Swap plague with leatherface and you have a deal
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Like seriously.
Hex ruin is very likely to waste over 120 seconds
PGTW wastes 20 seconds per hook
Dying light wastes 100 seconds (and is considered terrible)
This perk only wastes 80 seconds
This would literally be the worst time wasting perk in the game besides Thanataphobia.
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This is literally just PGTW.
Think about it.
Denial hook 4 survivors to get 100% gen regression when kicking a generator.
PGTW is hook 1 survivor to get 25% gen regression when kicking a generator.
Mathematically they are exactly as effective.
The only differences are:
A: PGTW is on generators you can see the aura of. Denial is on generators you can't see the aura of
B: Denial gives you an extra generator to patrol after using it and has negative utility with Fire up
C: PGTW is on a timer
D: PGTW can be activated more than once
Overall PGTW is the superior perk. Since you are very likely to get at least 5 hooks in a game and with PGTW that's 125% gen regression where this is only 100% generator regression.
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@ASpazNamedSteve said:
Erm you've missed the strongest part about Ruin, the fact that hitting a good skill check pauses any progress possible on the gen for several seconds (I don't actually know how long it is exactly), for every person on that gen. That's huge.
Oh yeah I forgot about that.
So I looked it up and it's 2 seconds or 1.6% for a total of 6.6%
Anyways, it doesn't change my final conclusion since good survivors will eventually be hitting greats which is about the time you would want to switch to PGTW regardless.
Thanks for reminding me through
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@Pike_Trickfoot said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/550502#Comment_550502
I love me that Thana/Sloppy combo. I use Ruin for the extra x seconds in the beginning of the match, but Thana/Sloppy is where the real stall is at. When I'm feeling devious, I also run overcharge and just straight up patrol. I think I get why some people hate me now. xD
Evil ;)
Personally I think Thanataphobia should be 5% instead of 4%.
With everyone injured that's a 20% slowdown per survivor which is... not that much
If all 4 survivors are injured for the entire game then that's 120% slowdown. Which is great of course, but compared to Ruin and PGTW doesn't actually amount to that much.
That being said Thanataphobia does have the very important effect of slowing down actions besides Repairing. Which is why I want 5% instead of 6%. 24% slowdown for gens is fair but 24% slowdown on everything? A bit much I think.
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I would also like to say that Killer's who require set up favor Ruin over PGTW.
By that I mean Hag, Trapper, Myers and Plague
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S and A tiers are the viable Killers.
B tier is almost viable
C and below is non-viable.
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So a worse pop goes the weasel?
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You can't nerf SWF.
It isn't a matter of should or shouldn't, it simply isn't an option because if you try an give a mechanical penalty to using the SWF button. Then Survivors will just use the solo que at the same time as their friends in order to get the same effect, the only difference being that now you have no way of knowing that they have any VC or anything. Not to mention it punishes everyone who isn't taking advantage of VC.
You can say we should balance for the 1% all day, however that point doesn't apply here. Competitive survivors can que with friends and not use VC just as easily as casuals.
You solve the issue with UI changes that help bridge the gap. You don't need as much as you would think.
Simply having indicators for what actions survivors are doing, who is in the killers TR/in a chase and having the aura of Survivors near a hooked survivor (say like 24 meters?) would do wonders and nearly bridge the gap entirely.
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@Coder said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/547240#Comment_547240
It is an exploit. He has to stalk me for 4 seconds, I have to look at him for 1.8. The game is supposed to be "the first one to expose/reveal the other, wins". But, he has a way to exploit my reveal, he just hides behind the wall and pops out and keeps stalking, while I have no way to counter his stalking, he has a way to counter my reveal. Like dribbling to bug the old DS or moonwalk legion.
5 seconds actually. And clearly it's not actually the "first one wins".
It's more like "ghostface can expose you but not if he's out in the open unless he has a lot of setup first". And if he's able to quickly duck back behind cover then he's not out in the open.
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I would like to point out that the 4% change is QoL.
So long as it is small enough that you can't pull him out on accident the exact portion of the screen used to reveal him is not a balance concern.
This change will not create any situations where you can pull him out where you otherwise could have. Unlike the Killer's camera, the Survivor's camera can always be moved freely regardless of what action they are doing. This means that if you are good enough you can have GF be in the exact center of the screen at all times so long as there is nothing blocking LoS with him.
What this means is that you will never be in a situation where that 4% is required to reveal him. Meaning it's only effect is making the actual execution of revealing him slightly easier. You should expect this to only matter at low ranks, since at red ranks survivors are good enough to center the camera properly anyways.
The mark extension and stalk rate addons nerf's are far bigger and were what I had said needed something to counterbalance them. Luckily the sound removal qualifies for such a counterbalance.
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You won't be banned because it's fixed now
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@ItsYourBoyGuzma said:
Id honestly love it if they just deleted legion and made a more visually creative and enjoyable killer.
@ItsYourBoyGuzma couldn't they just make the more visually creative and enjoyable killer anyway even without deleting legion?
What benefit does removing Legion have?
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I would like to point out that using wins and losses is the ranking system that nearly every game in existence uses and works great.
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Are you contesting that we should use the results of a strategy to judge if a strategy is effective? What would we use besides that?
Can you prove that insidious camping is a bad strategy without using the results of insidious camping?
Because I know we can both agree that it IS a bad strategy. But I come to that conclusion based off the fact that a simple to execute counter strategy exists.
If that simple to execute strategy did NOT exist then insidious camping would not be such a bad strategy, since you would lose against it and thus win using it.
"otherwise every survivor who escapes a match (regardless of contribution to their team throughout the game) should earn a pip and every killer who 4ks regardless of playstyle should pip."
I agree with this statement btw.
A Survivor that escapes should pip. This isn't a teamgame and the only mechanical reason to help the other survivors is under the expectation that doing so will improve your own odds of survival. Sacrificing yourself for the other survivors is thus a misplay.
A Killer who 4k's should pip. It is explicitly his job to Kill as many as possible. If he succeeds then whatever methods he used to do so were thus validated as being successful by definition. And thus whatever strategy was used is a good one (or at least better than the survivor's strategies)
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@Tsulan said:
@NuclearBurrito so with the current system, you can't farm anymore?
@Tsulan with the current system you can't BOTH farm.
The Killer farming is still at the expense of the Survivors and vice versa.
That being said neither side should have to farm with an ideal ranking system.
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@miaasma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/549006#Comment_549006
i don't know how to better explain this for you
in your rank 10 scenario, if the survivors are being destroyed so handily by a rank 10 killer then they're obviously bloated and should derank, which they will. honestly given how rank works in green ranks the killer will still probably rank up, but this scenario is more of an indication of the survivors giving the killer the game for free than the killer demonstrating any sort of skill (think everyone farming each other in the basement without BT and getting 4ked at 5 gens. all the killer had to do was hit them down and hook them, the survivors did the rest of the work). again, why should the killer be rewarded for this?
your rank 20 scenario actually occurred; a while ago, zubatlel did a perkless climb from rank 20 to rank 1 playing primarily huntress, nurse and billy. of course, he did rank up despite beating people who were obviously far inferior in skill to him, but eventually he had to play the game in a way that facilitated ranking up, not winning. for example, as he climbed higher in rank he'd play less billy (because billy sucks at ranking up) and more nurse. as a killer, if you care about ranking up, you can play the game in a way that allows you to even though the survivors are basically donating you the game
your argument ultimately doesn't really mean anything though because ranking up at rank 20 doesn't function the way it does in red ranks, purple ranks or even green ranks. it's purely an academic discussion point. i haven't been in rank 20 in a long time, and certainly not with the new emblems, but i don't imagine it's possible to 4k and not rank up at that rank even if you just 1 hook everyone. this is why in my previous post i mentioned a red rank killer going against rank 20s, because then you're dealing with the killer playing at their correct level against survivors much worse than them, rather than a killer playing at an artificially lower level with survivors who are correctly ranked
you can equip an ebony mori on any killer, tunnel everyone off first hook and kill them, and "win the game". should you rank up for this? i mean, you're 4king, right? but you took a shortcut to the 4k and thus wouldn't be rewarded in most emblems, so the game treats you as such. same goes for if you just 1 hook everyone
like i said, this rank system is not flawless. i'm just pointing out that not pipping for a 4k isn't a universal bad. sure, there are times when it's kind of outrageous (billy's called safety pip king for a reason), but if you insidious camp with leatherface and let the survivors kill themselves with altruism then you aren't going to rank up because nothing you've done demonstrates that you should and the emblem system is reflecting that
You kinda just proved my point with the Zubatlel, since as you said yourself in order to pip all the way he had to STOP playing optimally. With a proper ranking system you should never under any circumstances have to do that.
Hypothetically if camping was the best strategy in the game (it's not) then Killer's who camp should eventually end up being in the best ranks due to using the best strategy and thus being the best Killers (due to the fact that a Killer using a worse strategy will by definition not do as well as a Killer who is the same in every way except with a better strategy)
Since the final arbiter of a Strategies effectiveness is it's results. Or in other words good strategies are good if and only if they actually work. That means the only fair way you can judge such a strategy is by those results.
Since a camping leatherface is a strategy. And a 4k is a highly favorable result. An insidious camping leatherface who 4k's should pip. You could argue that the survivor's were just bad and that good survivors would punish the strategy, but guess what! You don't actually know that for sure. Or rather, you don't until such a survivor comes along and implements a counter strategy (which in this case is gen rush). Once this leatherface hits the rank where the counter strategy is being used he will start being crushed back down 1 rank and then be stuck at that rank until he gets a strategy that beats the survivors strategy. Until he does he is at the proper rank since whenever he ends up in the higher rank he is quickly depipped back down.
However if instead you arbitrarily make it so the leatherface doesn't pip despite having a strategy that works against survivors of his rank, what does that mean for the rank right above him? You would expect those survivors to be a bit better than the rank below them but not by much. The point being that those survivors will do well but still lose.
For demonstration purposes let's say for the average survivor in each rank:
12 = Is crushed by a campers
and
10 = Loses to campers but only after a long struggle
and finally
8 = Wins against campers
Remember that the strategy is arbitrary and I'm only using camping to hammer that home. The importance is the effectiveness
The Leatherface here starts at low ranks, if he's at something like 12 then he's not going to pip since he crushed them too hard so "clearly the survivors were in the wrong rank".
The problem is that all of the other survivors are ALSO getting crushed by the same strategy over multiple games. How many games does someone need to win before it becomes clear that it's not a fluke?
By the way with the current pipping system (not emblem system, just the system that converts pips into ranks) it's 5 games in a row with single pips or 3 with double pips.
Anyways so the Leatherface at a rank where survivors are decimated by his strategy (again, the fact that it's cheese isn't something you can reliably quantify) isn't pipping.
However, if the Leatherface were to instead go against the rank 10's he would pip no problem since they put up a fight. He would eventually stabilize at rank 9 since rank 8's cause him to depip.
As for using Mori's causing you to pip. YES! THAT TOO! BECAUSE IT WORKS! Even though it's OP? YES! OP THINGS ARE OP BECAUSE THEY WORK!
You know what the solution to a thing being OP is? Nerfing the OP thing. If mori's give Killers an easy win (and they do) then mori's should be nerfed.
Taking shortcuts in order to win is exactly what you would expect someone who's good at the game to do. Someone who's bad at the game would also do it sure, but a good player will do it better. And the fact that bad players can do it is what makes it a balance issue in the first place. However that's a balancing thing, NOT something that the ranking system is supposed to deal with.
Again. The final arbiter of skill is results. If one player gets good results from their strategy then they should pip. End of story. Even if it isn't harder it's still better.
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Also it still punished you for ending the game too fast.
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@Tsulan said:
The emblems are poorly implemented. They don't have the different killer playstyles in mind. A trapper will end a chase differently than Billy. Myers will lose many chases and get some instant downs or grabs. Legion is even supposed to lose chases after the first hit.
The devs think that a match should have a certain length. If it's to short, no one will pip. Problem is, that while they introduced a minimum time requirement for a match in order to pip, they forgot to adjust the already existing gen repair times and moris.
Game can end in 4 minutes. Either by survivors escaping or being dead.
They should go back to the very first system. Where only points determined if someone piped.
I've seen a streamer with 31,5k points who black piped. Like... #########?
Using bloodpoints was even worse. You could farm with the Killer in order to have everyone double pip which means you don't have an actual competition
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@miaasma said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/548974#Comment_548974
if survivors are throwing the game and the killer is taking advantage, it's indicative that the survivors are in the wrong rank; conversely, if the killer is getting absolutely stomped by survivors (who aren't in a swf and using a low ranked player to get lower ranked killers or anything like that) it's indicative that the killer is in the wrong rank. in the former scenario the survivors should depip, and in the latter the killer should depip. survivors don't pip if the killer does so badly that they don't have to go for saves and just do gens and leave, and killers don't pip if the game gets delivered to them through survivor incompetence. at best, both parties black pip in these cases. thus, your point about winning through opponent's misplays vs your own prowess doesn't hold up
if some horrible rank-related bug occurs and i (currently a rank 3 killer) end up stomping all over a bunch of survivors who just bought the game, i absolutely shouldn't pip for it because nothing i demonstrated indicated i should be above my current rank. a rank 20 killer who just bought the game should pip for that game, i should not
the entire point of the current rank system is (theoretically; whether or not it actually accomplishes this is debatable) to reward people for winning games that are more evenly matched and punish people for losing games horribly. if you're stomping all over people in a game it's indicative that those people's ranks (provided they're your rank) are bloated and they'll depip as they should, and the game will black pip you thereby not bloating your rank by rewarding you for people you are clearly more skilled than
the only issues with the current emblem system are killer specific emblems (and perhaps gatekeeper as a whole); for example, killers like billy suffer disproportionately in the chaser emblem because they have instadown abilities and chases end relatively quickly, so obviously this system isn't perfect. but in the case of a rank 10 killer killing everyone and not pipping, especially in a game i haven't watched myself, i'm going to go ahead and assume that the system is not the problem. i had no trouble breaking out of green ranks with hard to pip with killers like billy, and at that level even stompy games generally yielded pips
@miaasma I know that what you described is what happens. I'm saying that it shouldn't be.
Lets say you match 4 rank 10's with a rank 10 killer.
All 5 players had to play well enough to at the very least get to rank 10, by definition.
The Killer easily and quickly downs and hooks all 4 survivor's at once thus 1 hooking them.
What this means is that the Killer was able to utterly crush survivors who were able to get to rank 10 in the first place. If they were evenly matched then that would mean they are in the right rank, however that's not what happened. The explanation for this is that the Killer is better than the Survivors he just faced, and since those survivors are rank 10 that by definition means he's better than rank 10 survivors. And that the Survivors are worst than a rank 10 Killer for the same reason.
Of course that doesn't mean their better than ALL rank 10 survivors/killers, hence needing more than just 1 or 2 pips in order to rank up.
Let's put it this way:
Suppose the best DBD player in the world started playing the game on a new account tomorrow. He's amazing at being a Killer and will play perfectly to optimize his kill rate, never missing nurse blinks always making correct predictions with spirit ect.
Since he's the best Killer in the game, but he still needs to start at rank 20 cuz it's a new account that doesn't know he's the best killer yet he is initially being matched with rank 20's.
Since rank 20's are incompetent noobs for the most part he easily is able to destroy all 4 of them no problem, and why wouldn't he? We just matched the best player ever against people who just bought the game and are probably don't even know the controls yet.
Now, pop quiz:
Should the Killer pip? I mean you did just say that the point of the ranking system is:
"to reward people for winning games that are more evenly matched and punish people for losing games horribly."
And since these matches were NOT evenly matched then clearly no pip for the Killer, should have known' better than to be significantly better than their opponents.
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If there is anything I hope we can say we have learned from this system its this:
The emblem system looks at how you did what you did, instead of just looking at what you accomplished.
In otherwords:
The system right now looks at things like how many times you hooked people and hit people and stuff. But those aren't the things you are trying to accomplish. It should be tracking things like sacrafice states and health states. Or better yet, the Kills themselves since that's only thing that can objectively be stated to always be what a Good killer will do (since by definition a good Killer is good at killing)
Same for survivors. It shouldn't care about healing others for example because there are a lot of situations where healing someone hurts your odds of survival. Losing pips because you did the smart thing and left isn't just morally wrong, but factually wrong since what you did isn't a misplay.
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Also. Isn't everyone being 1 hooked a sign that you did GOOD?
Since that means that not only was your strategy successful, but they didn't even get the chance to try reversing the damage you caused.
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Imagine playing a Killer game where all of the Survivors are AFK.
You can't get much deviousness because they all die on first hook
You can't get Malicious because they don't heal
You can't get chaser because they don't run
You can only get gate keeper
Survivors have much better, but they still have this problem with benevolence. Since an AFK Killer won't hit survivors and thus they can't get points for healing.
The reason I bring of AFK survivors/killers is because an opponent that isn't playing presents you with the greatest skillgap you can possibly get without someone griefing. And thus you should be able to easily double pip against these survivors/killers
Except you can't, because these emblems first require you to get the chance to attempt them, and that doesn't always happen if the other player isn't good enough.
Basically, any ranking system that EVER requires you to play sub-optimally is automatically a bad ranking system.
That's actually why I think that even having a camping punishment like that is a bad idea. Because encouraging healthy gameplay is not the job of the ranking system. And trying to force it means that in the event that it is optimal to camp, the emblems won't reflect that being smart play even when it is.
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@miaasma said:
killing 4 can also mean the survivors threw. why should you rank up for that? if the end of the game is more a result of survivor incompetence than your own competence then it doesn't make sense to reward you for it; they'll rank down, but you shouldn't rank up
if BHVR is trying to implement a rank system in which your rank actually reflects your own skill, then it doesn't make sense to rank you up for games you didn't even really win for yourself. games like those would just bloat your rank
killing everyone at rank 10 should almost never black pip you. the only way i can think of that happening is if you just 1 hooked everyone
@miaasma Winning due to survivor incompetence and winning due to your own competence are identical in terms of how it should effect your ranks.
If your in a rank where a low skilled killer can dominate the survivors then that means that you are in a rank where even lower skilled survivors exist.
While you can and should depip those Survivors, that Killer should still pip so they will be matched with Survivors in a higher rank who are more competent.
In the event that this ends up going overboard and sends the Killer up too much because of this, then he will start losing a lot and thus depip back down until eventually they stabilize into their proper rank.
Remember: While ranking systems are often tied to progression, you shouldn't miss the forest for the tree's. The job of a ranking system is to give the matchmaking system the means of telling the difference between lower skilled players are higher skilled players.
Thus the players at red ranks should be the best players and the worst or newest players should be at yellow ranks.
Remember though, that this is checking for RELATIVE skill. If everyone in the game is terrible but 1 person who is just meh, then you would expect the meh player to be at red ranks.
Or in otherwords, you change in rank after a game should roughly be:
(you competence - Your opponents competence)
If your opponent is better than you then you should depip depending on how big the gap is. If you are better than your opponent then you should pip. It doesn't matter if your better because the opponents is 0 since the whole point is to track relative skill.
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Yeah. He needed this:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/56821/legion-mega-fix#latest