Neaxolotl
Neaxolotl
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3696414#Comment_3696414
The first part of your comment is an oxymoron because kills are the win condition
You cannot brag about your hook count to the 4-man that just got out through the gate, they won. The killer playerbase would plummet in a hook-oriented meta because they are playing towards crap no one cares about. I would rather go play tekken because there is no disputing who won.Getting 3 hook 1 kill isn't any better than getting 4 escape, even 2 kill with endgame generally feels a loss for killer
So no, 6 hooks or 2 kills doesn't really matter, it's only a win when they win, and thus as long as they can win reasonably with hooks, they wouldn't care if they get less 1k 2k matches
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You can literally look the projectile and dodge it past certain distance
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3696407#Comment_3696407
I have no idea how that is a proper response but good job dodging my question
Let's get this straight: Killer players, by and large, don't load into the game and say "Oh boy! I'm gonna get some hooks! :D" They load in to get kills because this is a pvp game and kills are the prizeWinning game is a prize, kills by itself really isn't
If that was the what everyone is looking for, rancor would be in literally every loadout, but nope
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3696400#Comment_3696400
What is the name of the role the survivors are facing?
Doesn't matter when bleedout is actually punished by the game, kind of
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@Snowbawlzzz said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3696389#Comment_3696389
"hook-oriented" gameplay only feels good for survivors
Killers want to killActually, killers want to chase, down, and hook without having to sweat all the time
So no, hook oriented gameplay by itself is hardly a problem, just that gen time would be like 3 minutes each
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3696373#Comment_3696373
Probably because I chose a headline I knew would drive engagement over one that perfectly articulated my opinion.
Elaborating off your initial response…Looking at all the games that end in 4 Kills at 5 Gens, we can assume that:
- X% happen because 1 or more survivors gave up early
- X% happen because of poor matchmaking
- X% happen because 1 or more Survivors made a serious misplay
- X% happen because the Killer made a very impressive opening play
- X% happen because the Killer intended to win as fast as possible
- X% happen because of a reason I'm not considering at this moment
None of these causes are mutually exclusive; i.e. a game can end in 4 Kills at 5 Gens because of poor matchmaking AND because 1 or more Survivors made a serious misplay.
My post is concerned with the second to last bullet, "…the Killer intended to win as fast as possible." The issue, however, is that we have no way of proving player motive. The only thing we can really do is look at the output of every trial and take note of whether or not the number of 4 Kills at 5 Gens has gone up in the past year.
So I pose the question, "how many 4 K's at 5 Gens will it take to move the needle?"
Personally, I am most concerned about the bullies who are empowered by the game's poor balancing.
"To use this mistake as a form of aggression, a form of succession, a form of a weapon, thinking 'I'll teach them…'"
- Tyler Joseph, Neon GravestonesI don't care if these players make up less than 1% of the game's population. Losing to someone who is significantly better than you is not the same as losing to someone who wants you to have a bad time. Players should not have to worry about encountering opponents who want you to have a bad time, they shouldn't have to carry a gun on them just to feel safe (to use another analogy in this thread).
I highly doubt any killers who can win as fast as possible can actually pull that off, honestly I suspect there would be far less than 1% of them, to the point you NEVER match with such killer
Also to be honest I don't get where you took "someone who want you to have a bad time", like can you elaborate what exactly is that, I believe those who want you to have a bad time would rather make matches longer instead
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@ProudRinMain said:
tbh it’s BHVR and the community’s fault. Had they opted to make the game hook-oriented, none of this madness would have taken place.
Yeah, people really asked too much for punishment instead of actual removal of all that broken mechanics
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game is pretty much over at endgame anyway, might as well let them have 4 escape
And tbh I don't believe 4.4 killers have place in dbd nowadays
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Self heal will never came back and it really shouldn't
that one basement healing perk is mixed bag as it can easily end the game with certain aura perks
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Have you tried looking through killer perks
Most of them are borderline useless too
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I will happily farm BP against bots as long as it's toggleable
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@kaoraku said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695735#Comment_3695735
Yeah. Survivors should get another 4-5 things as basekit. Maybe they should even get some new perkslots hm? Survivors already got perk effect as mechanic. They don't need any more. You want advantage, sacrifice a perkslot for it.
This advantage is something that can be done with skills still, I really loves removing skill gap
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@AdaEnjoyer2839 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695780#Comment_3695780
the point is to not allow that 4 man slug attempt to succeed, once again if you can down survivors quickly just hook them and get them out of the trial instead of trying to take all 4 out at once.
If that's the point why do you think survivor deserves free hatch escape without any real counter for it
You said it was to stop abusing, but if your opinions is actually just "survivors should get a chance for hatches absolutely free no matter what" , it doesn't makes sense because there is no reason killer has to lose 1k in winning games
even with slugging killers time is still extremely limited to find a indefinitely hiding survivor (which is nigh impossible within reasonable timeframe), if you really want to get the hatch you can just hide, if you really want to leave the match quick you don't need hatch, current endgame is more or less balanced as both side takes lot of effort to get what they want
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Dynamic hitbox would mess with literally anyone including survivors
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Honestly I don't even believe sloppy nerf were needed at all, that perk was hardly strong despite being meta
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Dealing with a nurse is more of a "moving to a location she can't hit" than "reacting to blink so you can deal with it"
Her blink isn't really that fast nowadays, it wouldn't really be a big problem as you say
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Are you sure it'd actually make so much of killer powers unplayable as it removes mindgame aspect of those and makes developers to buff them?
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So what you want is, a bleed out from the killer ONLY to secure 4k
because if last survivors are granted free unbreakable, killers would just wait until third survivors bleedout so he can pick up last survivor immediately after he became "last survivor"
@VomitMommy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3696248#Comment_3696248
It would be funny if the exit gates only allowed 3 survivors out, then blocked for 30 seconds
It might be funny for SWF for few games.
That would feel bad for soloQ…
Last survivor on hook, it would be so hard to get 4k out, so most survivors would just leave asap, which I find boring.Not to mention the fact it is extremely easy to just hide for 30 seconds
Survivors have two gates, and they don't even have to go there, finding hiding survivor within 30 seconds is nigh impossible as hiding is extremely strong to the point it can be considered as holding game hostage
Maybe it could work with killer instinct, but it's honestly stupid and at that point I'd rather keep capability for 4k, as it wouldn't really feel that bad to getting 4k anyways but it'd feel extremely bad to be left alone by 3 player swf or anything like that
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I don't really know, gen speed by itself isn't a big problem nowadays but map size is still extremely problematic for majority of killers
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@UndeddJester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695735#Comment_3695735
I would be vehemently against this for the same reason as above. WoO makes players bad at the game, and I absolutely don't want to have this perk in my loadout because of the bad habits it gives me.
Does it matter if you don't need to learn maps anyway
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Honestly it should be basekit with toggle option, and of course disabled during downed/hooked
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What is this OwO
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695791#Comment_3695791
45s of pressure is more than enough time to get what you need done without stepping into the realm of being a jerk.
As far as the timing goes, I'll use the same Oni example the person tried to claim would be killed back in that PTB.
45s of power, losing 7s per down, capped at a 28s reduction or 17s from first down to last down. That gives the Killer 28s to pick up the first Surv from where they downed the last. Given that it takes ~3s to pickup, ~3s to hook, and ~8s to walk to hook (avg. of 0-16s), that takes ~14s per Surv. That means the first and second Surv is hooked before the first could pick themself up. The third is then hooked just as the final Surv has ~42s on the ground, or 3s from being able to pick themself up, and the Killer is able to down them or pick them up by the time they are finally reached. That is all assuming the Survivors decided to recover. If they decided to crawl, then you have nothing to worry about since they aren't picking themselves up in time.This feels weird because somehow you are thinking oni can down survivors within 7s, four times, then you can find and reach all of slugged survivors in zero seconds
You must find survivors during they are still alive, then you must find survivors that is on ground, this is not an easy job that can be done within 60 or even 120 seconds
45s of pressure is nothing unless you are only using it for someone unhookable, or in conjunction with tunneling (basically only usable in "normal" gameplay), full slugging tactics is 100% killed unless you are absolute speed demon (probably a wallhacker too)
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Did you know you can repair generators even as a last survivor remaining
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695808#Comment_3695808
mmm.. not sure if I agree.
Sounds true, but even in competitive game modes I'm not so sure it's absolute.
Take the Killer roster for example; if PvP games are played with as much efficiency as possible, why would anyone pick the lowest tier killers? I'd conclude it is because people have preferences on playstyle.More likely is that people will play as efficiently as possible within their playstyle…but that doesn't mean they have chosen an efficient playstyle.
But the fact is, more or less serious players (who want to win, "have fun" or just don't want to get demolished) are pretty much locked in most efficient playstyle
You can blame BHVR for making choices nonexistent due to balancing, but I doubt you can say anyone black heart or whatsoever
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695784#Comment_3695784
Genuinely need me to answer this, or are you just hoping I'll say something ludicrous?
I'm stating PvP games are played with as much efficiency as possible from both side, generally
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695786#Comment_3695786
You don't need to slug all Survs simultaneously when using it as a tactic. You can do it intermittently as long as your reach the 6 unassisted slugs with a 45s basekit self-pickup. Down 1, 45s, 2, 1m30s, 3, 2m15s, 4, 3m, 5, 3m45s, 6 Dead.
You most certainly can down and hook Survivors and still meet the goal of downing them all. How is this not possible in your eyes? You can come back at any time to check on them or hook them.
Because it's taking a reward from high risk high reward tactics
Slugging is balanced by the fact it guarantee win by risking the chance of everyone getting up and everything getting undone, if you remove that reward by giving free basekit for survivors, you are effectively removing the usage of slugging beside "adding pressure" which is more or less easier and lesser hooking
And hooking takes more than 10 seconds each, so if you hook with basekit UB it'll just make one or two survivors up and let them rescue everyone, effectively leaving you with four survivor alive with just one or two hook state which is far worse than simply hooking
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695780#Comment_3695780
You don't need to slug all Survivors at once, you can hook them.
Just as proxy-camping is valid, and facecamping abuse was targeted to give Survivors agency. A basekit self-pickup would still allow for Bleedouts, but now give Survivors agency in that scenario.A basekit self-pickup with 45s would kill in 6 un-assisted slugs, which matches perfectly with 3 hooks in taking twice the effort. It would push players towards the more healthy (for the game) way of killing Survivors, without deleting the gameplay opportunity slugging provides.
You need to slug all survivors at once if you are using slugging as a winning tactics
You don't have enough time for hooking when an objective is to down all survivors, and this is hardly considered BM at all
The slug tactics and hook tactics is pretty much entire opposition, you don't even try to bleedout, you just try to down all survivors to hook them one by one
And I don't even feel slug tactics is any unhealthy because it just adds tension for both side, it can be undone by one clever save or all can lose by one mistake
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@KayTwoAyy said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695520#Comment_3695520
Yes, and in the context of my post it means the killer brought a gun to a knife fight.
"Match-making fail" is relevant to this discussion. The other two would be considered off-topic.
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695613#Comment_3695613
You're missing the point.
why are you playing a knife fight from the beginning tho
This is PvP game, right
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@mizark3 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695739#Comment_3695739
There actually is a natural reward for hooking. It provides permanent pressure, and locks in progress towards death on a Survivor. Someone is now going to have to rescue, and the Killer can provide additional pressure by chasing a would be rescuer if the Survivors got too greedy and attempted the save too late.
Survivors are also limited to 3 hook states max, compared to that 4 minute timer. By hooking a Survivor, the Killer hastens their death. The longest 3 hook states can last a Survivor is 59s before getting rescued, 59s before getting rescued again, and dead. That basically can be seen as killing a Survivor in 2 minutes. The bleedout takes twice that, and can be somewhat undone much more easily.
The only reason to slug in excess of 45s (the original PTB basekit UB) is to BM.
Actually, it can easily take more than 45s if you are going to try to slug everyone at once
Killing a perfectly valid tactics only to stop "abuse" that doesn't even happen for majority of time feels strange
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@LeFennecFox said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695752#Comment_3695752
It's not hard to give him addon nerfs. Engravings + Lopro/Engravings + Spiked Boots should probably not be a thing.
It's not he is any better than other killers with all that addons anyway, I don't see much of a point
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@LeFennecFox said:
Hillbilly in general is heavily overtuned and I think they could nerf him a bit now that he was allowed to be that strong for a while
I believe that just results in reduction of killer variety tho
as long as top stays same, you don't really need nerfs
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@AdaEnjoyer2839 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695732#Comment_3695732
if you really see nothing wrong with it you can stick to your opinion because i've given you my points already. if you can see nothing wrong with it and how miserable it feels to play when that happens it's just a matter of different opinions and i can respect that. i compared slugging to facecamping in that way because survivors cant do much about both situations and both can be resolved by bhvr since it's a game mechanic. it really depends on what you mean by slugging for pressure because if survivors are all up in your face then it makes sense to down them, but literally just hook them at that point. I recognize there's no actual reward to hooking since it slows the killer down in a sense, and something could be changed about that. it's a game and games are meant to be fun for both sides. if you're genuinely getting on to make the survivors miserable with that mindset every game and there's a mechanic in the game that you can just freely abuse that should be mentioned. maybe it shouldn't be 60 seconds but 90 or 120, whatever is more healthy for the game. the whole point of this post is to not allow killers to make survivors miserable without a penalty. if the killer is hooking survivors instead of just leaving them on the ground for an eternity then theres no issue to discuss but it's not always the case. i've seen a lot of opinions on this and allowing you to pick yourself back up is the most reasonable one, the only issue is how long it should take.
And the my proposal of instant sacrifice when everyone is downed will also stops killers to make survivors miserable, you don't even need any penalty because it's outright impossible
and no, hooking at last two survivors doesn't grant any pressure, majority of times hooked survivors just sacrifice themselves only to deny killers from chances of 4k, forcing killers to utilize slugging
Something extremely strong like this is only healthy when you needs to use a perk slot
To be blatantly honest I didn't even felt miserable when being slugged, 99% of time killers will hook me when crows appear, and it's quite funny seeing other survivors running around without having to think about killers location and all that on my part
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I'd even say make this basekit, ultimately that just reduces gap between best and worst players so making game more consistent
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@AdaEnjoyer2839 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695716#Comment_3695716
yes indeed, but they don't always hook you and in many circumstances you're one of the 2 people the killer will slug just to deny the other person the hatch. if the killer just resorts to slugging it's either a big mistake the survivors made or just the killer being annoying. i dont get how it's so abusable to be able to get yourself up, max 3 times considering the bleed out timer won't be getting removed, and on top of that you'll be wasting your own time if you go down intentionally. 60-84 seconds is enough time for the killer to come back and hook you if not focused on another survivor. i'll just keep comparing it to facecamping because it benefits me in this argument, so if you look at it like this:
does every killer facecamp? no, is there something survivors could do about face camping, maybe 3 man save but other than that no, especially if they got insta down. (so they implemented anti facecamp)
does every killer slug? no, is there something survivors can do to counter it unless they sacrifice their perk slots, no.
you could say unbreakable is a pretty common perk and people run it, but it's still a game flaw. killers cant be entirely blamed for wasting people's time since it's a valid game mechanic and that's on the developers. just bringing a perk to fix that is a bandaid fix and i wouldnt wanna do that.
If it's for "slug for pressure" which is still happening at last two survivors remaining, it's hardly "wasting your time" or anything because this is just a normal gameplay loop that deserves to be preserved
Being unable to hook isn't exactly uncommon, so yeah you can make killer's life impossible with basekit unbreakable, even if it wastes time it's still a free advantage especially when survivors can also just heal them up
And slugging is hardly comparable to facecamp because as long as it's fixable by perks it's not an absolute problem
It's only a "waste of time" when killer gains no advantage over that specific act and ALL survivors have no agency to deal with it, if there is even one survivors standing they have an agency, and if everyone is downed it doesn't makes sense to give them free comeback
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Anything that gives me so many of bloodpoint
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@AdaEnjoyer2839 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695706#Comment_3695706
If the game ends the moment everyone's downed every killer who's determined to win is just gonna slug though? I get why u would think its better but you should allow the survivors to be able to do something if the killer decides to ruin their time. "another chance perks" theres literally nothing you can do.
But what is difference between now and then
If everyone is slugged, he is already winning, it's just a matter of wasting survivors time by refuses to hook or actually finish up the game by hooking everyone
I don't get why you think every killers would suddenly decide to slug survivors all, they are already doing that if it's possible
I'd rather stop killers from ruining time altogether, than adding a tools that just reduces strategy and is extremely abusable
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@AdaEnjoyer2839 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695687#Comment_3695687
how would it be bad for the game to actually allow people to play? it's very much fair to allow yourself to get up if the killer is just trying to waste your time. "once in a couple hundred games" is a huge exaggeration since when me and my friends play that happens every 4-5 matches. if you think it's fun to waste peoples time just to get a 4k in an online game i dont know what to tell you.
Because it is giving arbitrary advantage that is hardly justified
If wasting time is the only problem you have, you should ask for instant sacrifice of everyone, so game balance stays same but problem will be fixed
But you are asking for basekit unbreakable that does work all the time, that's just a survivor buff without any real reasoning behind it
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@AdaEnjoyer2839 said:
you shouldn't have to sacrifice your perk slots to fix a bad game mechanic, that's obvious, especially if you wanna have fun and experiment with more perks. bhvr can fix slugging just like they fixed facecamping with the free self unhook when the killer stands there for too long. sacrificing yourself = getting yourself out of a bad match or dying to let the last survivor get the hatch if theres only 2 of u. it's obvious to me that free unbreakable with certain conditions is the best way to fix this boring mechanic that a lot of killers abuse. there should always be counterplay to things to actually keep the game fun
To me, faster game ends with four sacrifice seems lot better because when all 4 survivors are slugged it should counts as win for killers
The only problem you have is killer didn't hook everyone, so it should be done automatically by game without killer interaction
I don't get why you think survivors should have another chance without perks for free
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I believe biggest problem with old spine chill was it forced killer players with super awful counterplay which is moonwalk
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I wonder how can you even know people have explicit malicious intent
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@AdaEnjoyer2839 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695685#Comment_3695685
i dont think you read my suggestion in the first place so i think trying to explain it is pointless but i'll just try to be kind and let you know that being on hook allows you to either leave the trial by sacrificing yourself or to wait until ur teammates save you so you can keep playing.. 4 man slugs without unbreakable or anything are simply just a waste of time u can do nothing about. u cant use ftp or buckle up on anyone if your whole team is on the ground, and not everyone runs those perks, so i dont get your point
If you are specifically talking about 4 man slugs, I think finisher mori was pretty much what you were looking for because that'll do same as "sacrificing yourself" for everyone
And even then literal unbreakable exists and sometime soul guard can work too
You may also try using exponential
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I'm pretty sure majority of survivors choose to just do objective they see esp in solo q
Trying to prevent 3gen often results in 3gen anyway because you don't know what gen others are doing, so I stopped trying
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@AdaEnjoyer2839 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695681#Comment_3695681
You must be new to the game if you don't know that there's a bleed out timer that some killers choose to abuse instead of hooking people
You have buckle up which is better BT because both will get endurance, and bleedout is 4 minutes which is far longer than hook timer
You can even take for the people for instant heal
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@AdaEnjoyer2839 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3695637#Comment_3695637
I don't know what you propose to fix slugging because it is an issue unfortunately, and I can't think of anything else that would solve the problem other than allowing a survivor to pick themselves back up after a certain amount of time. One person in the comments suggested being able to pick yourself up 60 seconds after you have fully recovered which sounds a bit more fair. Other than that there's no other way to fix slugging since you can't control the way the killer will choose to play. The other issue with the ptb other than the free unbreakable was the insta mori which was the bigger disaster, and that is not what i suggested about the mori either. I just suggested having the **option** to mori the last survivor, meaning you can also hook them or give them the hatch if you would like to.
I don't even think slugging is a problem, it's no different from hooking, if anything it's actually better because you won't lose hook state and can freely move around
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@JPLongstreet said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/410552/new-killer-idea-the-follower
Wouldn't comms completely negate such a power?
Not always, I believe comms could actually be fun depends on situation or mechanics
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Hook can be destroyed, sabotaged, body blocked and all that
You are never meant to be consistently unhookable
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If you gonna ban like this, I think more than 80% of dbd players would die off