MrPenguin
MrPenguin
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@Deadeye said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2939864#Comment_2939864
"MMR needs to take more things into account, not just "me 3k with Bubba me good" or "me leave with Cornerdette me good"."
This is exactly my point. If you read my post above, I said it there. The current MMR is not a good approach for this game, especially not with the current playstyle allowing stuff like facecamping the first hook to death and then get even more by bad unhook attempts or by endgame NOED. With this you can easily "secure" your MMR with a double kill or rank up if the survivors dont play well or efficient enough.
And letting everyone else do the gens and chases until the hatch is closed and you escape through lucky gate spawn is the same problem. Of course this is not the main case, just two examples but I think we can agree that with this playstyle you can at least keep your level and never learn to get better even though you should get downranked
Btw I didnt say I want no match making at all. And probably old emblem systems were worse than current MMR games (which is not my experience, pretty much feels the same). But I think MMR is just the wrong approach (as said before) and emblems would need a tweak to be a good reference for match making
Emblems, ranks, or whatever are just another way to put in an MMR. Before it was EBMM (emblem based MM) and inaccurate at measuring skill, now its SBMM and inaccurate at measuring skill. Both had a rank you were in, that determined who else you get matched with. Just different names for the same system because they changed how it worked/got measured.
Involving more things in SBMM or having an improved emblem system are effectively the same thing. So you're contradicting yourself by saying you don't want MMR, but you want matchmaking. You can't have matchmaking if people don't have a matchmaking rank in some form. Based on your comments though I'm going to assume what you mean to say is you just don't want the current MM, you want a better form of matchmaking.
But yes we can both agree the current system is bad and an improved system would be much better, whether its back to emblems but much much better or current MMR but with more factors in it, as those are both essentially the same thing.
That's why I said I want the matchmaking improved not removed and didn't vote for the "remove it" option. Some people want matchmaking removed entirely because "it just can't work in DBD", which I disagree with entirely.
We need something in place that's better than old emblems, which were basically just a 2-3 week buffer for brand new players before they entered "high ranks" where 95% of the entire playerbase were. It was the same as no matchmaking.
I think our wires just got crossed, but it seems like we agree.
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@Deadeye said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2937699#Comment_2937699
I think the bad balance is a consequence of bad match making. The stats reason their balancing decisions, which base on too many mixed matches
If that's the case, without MMR the matches would be even more mixed, so that would only worsen the problem.
Imo, the bad balance is mainly the result of the devs not understanding or playing their own game to a competent level. You can't balance off of stats alone, especially when you take the entire game as a whole into account and the lower tiered players royally skew the data. It seems like the only case they really understand that in is Nurse.
So even if they do want to balance with just stats, they need to stop looking at absolutely everyone and focus on the players that are actually good at the game. Not "top 1% I live and breath this game", but the people who know what they're doing enough to not have Pig and Cenobite in higher kill brackets than Spirit and Blight (based off their last kill rate stats).
MMR needs to take more things into account, not just "me 3k with Bubba me good" or "me leave with Cornerdette me good".
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@friendlyant1 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2938326#Comment_2938326
Your comment is valid 100%! I play killer and survivor equally and I’ve seen time and time again that tunneling and camping are very good strategies to almost guarantee a “win” (at least 3K)
id never blame the players for doing what they need to do to win. However, I do believe the devs should do something to mitigate that to help the health of the game. It sucks being on the receiving end and getting tunneled or camped several games in a row.
Yes I agree the devs should do something and it does suck on both sides.
It is a bit of a tricky subject because you need to move killers away from the strategies without making them weaker, or allowing survivors to abuse the change, as a result. But that doesn't mean they can't test new thing out in a PTB or something.
Just to toss out an idea: a shared hook pool between survivors to encourage faster hooks in general rather than faster hooks on one particular person. Of course game times would need to be increased in some way to make to give the killer enough time, or you could go the other route and reduce the number of hooks needed from 12 to like, 8 or make chases end faster. This would also encourage more teamwork form the survivors.
Maybe it'll work maybe not, but it'll show they're trying and they can always fine tune a promising system. They should really use the PTB to try more extensive changes out and take more advantage of it. Other games have PTB's where they test things out and some things never make it to live, DBD should also take advantage of their PTB and let the players test out changes more in my opinion.
The most we hear on any change we don't get is "The devs tried it and didn't like it so we threw the whole idea out" like the beginning of game changes we were supposed to get.
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"Strategies like tunneling & camping often go overlooked."
People complain about these 2 so much I'm tired of hearing about it, I really don't know how you got that impression.
Both are strategies, but both also hurt the games health. It's not the players fault, its the devs for designing the game this way and leaving it alone for so long.
Camping works often enough and tunneling is the most efficient way to play the game, don't blame the players for trying to win.
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MMR isn't the problem, the bad balance is.
That being said I would like MMR improved, not removed.
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Can't you put the tape in during her attack CD? There's no way she should have mori'd you unless you got insta-downed somehow.
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@GoshJosh said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2901125#Comment_2901125
They do.. if you happen to be the last survivor left alone with the killer, and you let the killer close the hatch and leave the area…
I meant like aura wise during the match, obviously they open the hatch.
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Keys just need to do something at base, besides just open the hatch.
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@Murgleïs said:
I have a lot of friends who are survivor only main and never touched a killer in 3000+h. So, no.
Same here. I've met plenty of people who only play survivor, I can't think of anyone I know personally who only plays killer. If they play killer they play both sides.
Most of them say killer is "too stressful" for them to play more. Sounds Familiar lol.
While I agree the complaining gets annoying, I also understand the frustration they're expressing. Its just misdirected imo and could be energy better spent on having a better, more constructive conversation. But this is the internet we're talking about so they'll probably just "Reeee you disagreed, you must not play my side! You must be bad at the game!"
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@Valik said:
I've played the game for 1,400 hours.
I have nearly every achievement unlocked and have mostly spent my time playing as killer.
I play survivor as a warm bath to relax with after playing killer.
If you think survivors have it rough in the current meta, you're not just delusional - you have no idea what you're talking about.
If you think that hopping into 'solo survivor' is hard, it's not the killers that need to 'git gud'.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2895023#Comment_2895023
Sounds like you and your other survivor friends are in low/mid tier matchups.
Survivors at high MMR don't break a sweat running the killer for 45-60 seconds at a time.
If you and your buddies are getting downed within 20 seconds of the match starting - killers aren't OP, you just have a lot to learn.
The way the match is balanced, survivors start with the advantage - time is completely on their side.
It is up to the killer - and their performance - to steal momentum from the survivors and turn the tables.
This is by design.
If the killer is stealing your momentum this quickly, it means you are not defending your innate advantage.
As someone who plays both sides and has been for ~4 years, 100% agree.
I've been playing more survivor now than ever before actually. CoH, boons in general really, just made killer even more unattractive than before to play. Survivor is very strong right now, as it usually is lol.
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I mean. It actually sees some play now and its actually pretty ok on a map with a good chunk of elevation.
However that's just because of the % boost to your progress. The current nerf won't really effect it, just make it less annoying to go against and not get people stuck on a doorway as often because they keep getting pushed from one side to the other but not through, which I'm assuming is unintended especially by the wording of the nerf.
So it's spot strength wise shouldn't really change much.
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@prion11 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2889535#Comment_2889535
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2889541#Comment_2889541
Right now, my list is dead hard, noed, circle of healing, shadow step, BT (removing collision is a great idea, and I'll credit you for it in the video I make) DS (I only have a tiny change to DS, which would be adding a couple actions to the list of things that deactivate it) spine chill, dark theory
Tbf I didn't come up with removing collision, that ideas been floating around for a while. Just the first one in this particular thread to bring it up.
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DH and CoH are are pretty obvious.
BT just needs collision removed on the survivor affected by it.
Boons, either they're going to be too strong or too weak, giving the killer an extra time sink is too much for any worthwhile effect in the current game state. So its either bad/niche effects or CoH levels. Something about them needs to change on a base level, if anything for futureproofing.
Unbreakable is fine on its own, but is very volatile to be no counterplay combo material. Like old DS and Boil Over.
NoED, whether you think its strong or not, is incredibly unfun to go against. Especially for solo players.
Most of the problematic things on the killer side are powers and add-ons though, not perks.
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Yet another failure of an upbringing to accept when they're wrong when events have already showed so.
You asked about the test, what happened and how it was abused, then when you got told what happened and why, tried to argue that the reason why it failed, the situation it caused, is the reason why it'll succeed... somehow. "The situation you described is a perfect reason this perk works, though." It's not and it doesn't.
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@Valik said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2888952#Comment_2888952
Enters conversation
Proves self wrong several times
Argues that the game is unplayable outside of camping
Constantly shifts their own goal posts
Refuses to elaborate
Pretends to have won
Yet another casualty of the public education system.
They're never going to implement this system because it's been proven trash. That's all there is to it, period.
Keep ignoring reality bub.
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- No I play both sides, this wont do anything but make things worse. Its already been proven. But I'm starting to understand you're a survivor main and have no regards to killers at all.
- You clearly have no reading comprehension.
- I don't camp period, including proxy camp because its boring af. But sure, go to personal insults because you're arguments are trash.
You've already been proven wrong by irl events, not some on paper shenanigans. I already won this argument before it began, you're just in denial at this point. Stay ignorant then 🤷
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@Valik said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2886400#Comment_2886400
The situation you described is a perfect reason this perk works, though.
In the ABCD example here, it's a 3 man game with a hook. The killer knows this. Once the killer sees that Camaraderie is activated, they will know 'hey - if I sit around, I'm wasting my time, and the survivors are going to win the game anyway.'
If Survivor B is, as discussed earlier, 24 meters away from the hook - sitting there. Bam. Easy. Killer can leave the 24 meter radius and chase them. If there are multiple survivors waiting JUST outside of the 24 meter radius, the killer only needs to step out of a 16 meter radius to counter this perk. The killer can proxy easily enough, there's no reason they'd have to face camp after just seeing survivor B.
Especially with C and D doing generators - the killer cannot see any of them within a 24 meter radius - the hook is safe to leave. The situation, as you described it, should never have been a face-camping situation. Face-camping in these situations is the absolute worst idea regardless, because by the time the survivor dies - C and D will have finished 2 generators. If anyone in this example is at fault, it's survivor B - who should ALSO be on a generator.
There are three thing's I'd like to say about your conclusion.
1.) Killers already have MANY perks that offer buffs for not camping. Campers don't take these perks. Having a little 'camper's insurance' does not mean the killer should be buffed in order to give them 'positive reinforcement'. Your job as a survivor is not to give positive reinforcement to the killer - it is your job to threaten them with powerful perks until they learn the right way. Borrowed Time does not buff killers that target the unhooking survivor - it gives a hearty punishment for hitting the wrong one. Decisive Strike does not give killers warm and fuzzy feelings for killing other survivors, it is a smoking gun aimed at the killer's head if they dare try and tunnel a survivor out of the game. Unbreakable doesn't award the killer with bloodpoints when they pick survivors up, nor does it shower them with confetti if they go the entire trial without survivors laying on the floor for long - it screws over killers that don't hook. These three perks have done more to encourage healthy killer gameplay than any killer perk has ever done. Thanks to DS and BT - it's a lot rarer to see killers tunnel survivors off the hook. Thanks to Unbreakable and Soul Guard, slugging everyone is a lot more of a risk than ever before. If you want killers to play well - you can give them incentive enough. But the best way to eliminate the gameplay is by creating a threat powerful enough to potentially destroy the match for killers that refuse to learn their lessons.
2.) You say that nobody wants to wait on the hook longer. Camaraderie already does that. Not only this, but it sounds like you're speaking from a place of... well... wherever you are. But when people are fed up with being face camped - taking this perk is their way of mutual destruction towards the killer. Decisive Strike doesn't mean you don't get tunneled, and does mean you spend a lot MORE time getting tunneled if anything - and hell, you can miss the check and lose the perk, it's a waste of time... why do people take it? Borrowed time forces survivors to spend several seconds mending? Who likes mending? Not only would sitting on the hook for longer NOT be an issue for many frustrated players - especially those playing with friends - but when the perk is revealed, the killer should feel sufficiently motivated to go away from the hook and find someone who DOESN'T have this perk to be their victim of choice.
3.) You're saying 'no' to a perk that does something like this, then you turn around and suggest that there is a basekit option to entice killers away from the hook? Face-campers cannot be enticed. They do not care if they stare at paint dry for minutes at a time and walk away with 2 kills. You fundamentally cannot stop face camping with bonusses to killers. If there was something implemented base-kit, it would be something akin to this... which would be infinitely more of an overstep than reworking this useless perk to niche appeal.
"Once the killer sees that Camaraderie is activated"
If they know its in play sure, killers don't get told what perks the survivor has unless it affect them directly, like a DS stun. This affects the survivors timer, not the killer. Most players won't even notice or by the time they do it'll be to late to change anything.
"'hey - if I sit around, I'm wasting my time, and the survivors are going to win the game anyway.'"
Right, and give another survivor on a nearby gen an easy save immediately. Bad for the killer regardless. Both options are bad Like I said.
" the killer only needs to step out of a 16 meter radius to counter this perk"
Then the perk is useless and killers will just camp from 16 meters now, defeating the point. You make the 16 bigger, well now the killer cant contest saves because they're too far, survivors get free unhooks.
"The situation, as you described it, should never have been a face-camping situation."
Well it was, sorry to tell you. You can't give survivors more time on gens. Other solutions have the potential to work, not that one. You're rewarding the survivors by letting their teammate get camped, defeating the point of trying to save them.
" Face-camping in these situations is the absolute worst idea regardless"
Yup, and giving a free save is also a bad idea, again they were both bad options. You're putting the killer in a lose-lose.
1.) Yes I mentioned those perks that reward not camping. Al those perks you mentioned are exactly the problem perks that many complain about. they're there to fix problems that should be fixed at base on both sides. Survivors are tired of running them, killer's are tired of getting punished for playing the efficient way when the alternative, 12 hook games, are just asking to lose. Make the reward for not camping make 12 hook games viable, your change doesn't do that at all you're just nerfing killers when we need to go the other direction.
"Your job as a survivor is not to give positive reinforcement to the killer - it is your job to threaten them with powerful perks until they learn the right way."
Well both of those aren't the survivors job. I don't think the role labeled "survivor" should be threatening the one called "killer" lol. Its the devs job to push the killers in a more positive direction, not the players.
2.) Yes camaraderie does but its also restricted to only the struggle phase and its actually run in tournament play for the very reason I mentioned, more time on gens. It doesn't need to and shouldn't be stronger. DS does make you get tunneled longer, people do take it to help their own chances of survival sure, but at least you get to interact with the game with it. BT's mend is a lot shorter than spending 60 seconds on a hook for a hook state, so its the better option. Unbreakable is better than sitting on the floor. These are all meta perks and commonly complained about such as "the survivors have too many second chances", which is true imo.
3.) Yes players who want to facecamp no matter what will do so, but this change will not change that either. What we can change is the players who camp just because its effective, by making it no longer a better strategy than trying to hook everybody 3 times. As I said "We just need something basekit that's substantial enough to make not camping a much stronger option." this doesn't do that, it just makes camping weaker. Killers will just lose more and survivor ques will get even worse than they already are.
While you are right that this change will entice players away by punishing them, those weren't my words, the transcript is right there.
"reward killers for not camping with some kind of buff" not "punish killers for camping with a nerf". Both are enticements, both are very different directions to go in.
I mean if you just want to nerf killer's across the board then sure, this would be a great change. I don't think that's a good idea, but its your proposal not mine.
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@Valik said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2883680#Comment_2883680
If generators are flying, what's the killer doing next to a hook?
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2883692#Comment_2883692
Hmmm... fair enough, I guess. But let's be honest - the perk doesn't exactly encourage nor benefit from any form of Camaraderie as is.
I might suggest that it may be more Camaraderie to take one for the team and have everyone do gens while you take the Killer's camp - a sort of indirect version.
But pointing out that the perk thrives on a LACK of friends nearby is a legitimate mention.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2883718#Comment_2883718
Has it really? I'd love to look at that test!
Abused how? Even if this perk was taken in every single match by every single survivor - it would only work in very particular circumstances. The only way for survivors to exploit it is to always leave their teammates on the hook - which will always be detrimental to them if the killer backs away to even nominal proxy distance.
So basically, it put the killer in a lose-lose situation and actually made camping worse for the one being camped. I'll try to explain best I can.
Survivor A is on hook, survivor B will be around the hook, survivor C and D will be on gens. So as soon as the killer hooks, survivor B would be close enough that they can contest the save and the killer can see them, but not close enough to be an easy hit. The killer now either leaves the hook to chase, or tries to defend against the save.
If he chases, well that's an easy save for another survivor since they'll be away from the hook. If he stays the hook timer will be paused and the gens are still rolling. Survivor C and D have no pressure to go since the timer was paused, so they could work on gens freely until the situation changed. If the killer started to head in the direction of B but then turned around, well the timer would just pause again so B would just went back again as well and we're back to square 1. Survivors B, C, and D had no problem letting survivor A stay on hook the entire game so they could get the gens done free of pressure and get out. Maybe they'd go back during endgame to get A, and now the killer has 1 hook and that's it. Pretty much guaranteed 4E.
IIRC you could also loop around the general area of the hook and the timer would be paused the entire time as there either were no rules in place for the survivors position, just the killer, or it was less restrictive. Just to add to the shenanigans.
Survivor A was having an even worse time not being able to interact with the game for even longer, and the killer couldn't feasibly win because if they contested unhooks they got punished and obviously letting people get free saves isn't good either.
The lesson from the test was if you punish killers for camping, survivors will force that punishment to their advantage in any way they can. If you make the timer take longer, well that's just more gen time before we have to worry about the unhook and more time survivor A can't interact with the game. The alternative, to reward killers for not camping with some kind of buff or something, would be a much better system. Hence why there's killer perks that specifically require you to be away from the hooked survivor. We just need something basekit that's substantial enough to make not camping a much stronger option.
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Better than unlimited at least. Unless they have so many it doesn't matter.
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its 50% extra not 50% slower like self care
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@feechima said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2875449#Comment_2875449
So you're saying you've seen drastic changes in your games where you are losing because CoH was brought into it? And what playstyle is it nerfing, the hit and run? Slugging? Sloppy Butcher?
I mean I play both sides so I'm winning and losing more since CoH depending on which side I'm playing. It did definitely make a noticeable difference. Hit and run is known to be incredibly weak rn just because of the perk, that's the one I was talking about. I didn't name it because most people know by now what someone means when they see that. The person I was responding to has been around for a while so I figured they knew, which it seems like they did.
Without hit and run the only thing left chase wise is to commit to every chase or leave before even starting it. Even if you get multiple hits in, if you don't down them they'll be healed up very quickly. So its also caused an uptick in tunneling scenarios as well which no one wants.
Sloppy butcher isn't a playstyle, but It does weaken that perk to a degree since it just overpowers it with room to spare. 3 gens are an extreme slog now on both sides since they can just drop a boon on the other side of the map and its just a back and forth of "hit, killer not leaving the 3 gen, survivor runs across the map, heals, comes back, survivor not looping around the 3 gen" and repeat.
It just makes it way to easy and quick to heal and effects the entire survivor team an unlimited amount. You don't have to find teammates or struggle healing as survivor, just get to 1 of the boons, you can't keep health states as killer, they'll just run to the boon that's highlighted for them.
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@TurboTOne said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2875762#Comment_2875762
i mean they want to do that. 0.2 m/s per frenzy Hit. And it Stacks. And with Addons that could be even better.
I mean before you hit anyone, I dont see a reason for the speed gain to be so small baseline. Even with the 5% you're at most getting 145%, when killers like spirit move at ~ 170 out the gate with no fatigue.
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His base movement speed in frenzy needs to be increased period, not only with an add-on. Other killer's with much more lethal power gain a lot more than 10% while also having add-ons that make them faster. I don't see why legion can't be faster at base.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2875457#Comment_2875457
CoH has already been nerfed twice and the developers have already said they're going to do something about Dead Hard.
And as for them being 2 strong. There has been absolutely no proof that Dead Hard is any stronger that Sprint Burst, Overcome, Lithe or even Balanced Landing for extending chases. Killers don't like it because it's an in your face perk and survivors like it because it's a fun perk that requires precision and timing from survivors, compared to the other exhaustion perks that are brain-dead.
CoH is strong because the developers needed it strong enough for survivors to use it. It was meant to be a secondary objective to slow down gens. If it wasn't strong enough, survivors wouldn't use it and go back to adrenaline, resilience and spine chill while ignoring healing, like they were doing before. Is that really what you want to see, faster gens?
No, killer-players can't stand survivor-players getting anything and just want survivors to be so helpless so they can just go in and get 4k after 4k.
It got 2 nerfs that did close to nothing. Its not "how many nerfs" its "how impactful were those nerfs". DS needed 4 years to be fine, MoM took much less time. The amount of nerfs/buffs doesn't really matter, its the end result. Like these Legion and GF changes don't really matter if the killer's end up still being trash at the end of it.
Idk what you want for "proof", so I can't really say much on that one. To me the perk has more than shown its over tuned and the majority of the playerbase seems to agree
Idc for the reasons/excuses why they made the perk too strong, the point is they did and it needs to be reigned in. If anything this shows what I was saying earlier where survivor perks need to be disgusting to be used because the current perks are too strong. Gen speed are not the only factor. Yes I would take slightly faster gens over COH because the time loss of CoH is much greater on the killer side then the survivor side meaning killer's would be better off. It doesn't matter if gens take a little longer if the reason why is to make it so the killer can't reasonably build any pressure to gain any momentum.
At the end of the day, the survivor ended up even better. If their goal was to slow down survivors objective then they failed as what they actually did was slow down killers objective by an even larger margin, not only defeating the purpose but exacerbating the already existing issue.
The last line is just victimizing survivors and villainizing killers. There's no point in doing that. it just as easy to say survivors just feel entitled to free second chances and saves from all their bad plays and can't stand the though of not having 5 get out of jail free cards because they're all trash. That line of argument does nothing for anyone. If that's how you feel that's how you feel, but it doesn't actually help your argument. The point is it doesn't matter if nothing gets done about it. We should look at the points they're making, regardless of who says them, killer or survivor.
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Responding to the edit here
It doesn't matter if they're trying to get it nerfed, not "removed", if nothing actually gets done. CoH and DH should be nerfed, they're way too strong. But as things are now, those perks are running the show. If it takes 4 years like DS did then we can talk in 4 years.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2875440#Comment_2875440
What it's really like is the Developers give Killer-players a Ferrari every patch and Survivors have to hope the Honda Accord they got 4 years ago doesn't get removed because Killer-players think survivor-players don't deserve anything.
right because Call of Brine taking away 30 seconds of 1/4 survivors time on 1 gen if left alone for 60 seconds is clearly better then CoH completely invalidating an entire playstyle and running the meta ever since its creation, letting people heal in 10 seconds in an AoE. /s
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2874332#Comment_2874332
If you consider how far back survivors have gotten meta changing perks compared to killer meta changing perks, then you will see survivors are the neglected stepchild of DbD.
5 months ago, survivors got CoH, 1 meta perk for survivors. In that amount of time killers got Dead Man's Switch, Merciless Storm and Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance all meta perks that I see one or two of every game.
But if you look back, the last meta changing perk for survivors was Windows of Opportunity. So between Windows or Opportunity and Circle of Healing, it has been 4 years since survivors have gotten a meta changing perk. Let me say that again, 4 years.
Killers meta changing perks have been in the double digits in that amount of time. So Killers don't need to come here whining on the forums about how the developers aren't paying them enough attention.
You're still talking quantity.
Its better to have DS DH CoH UB for 4 years be disgusting top of the line to the point nothing else can compete, then get new shiny "I guess its good enough" perks every once in a while.
Maybe putting it terms of numbers might show things better. Someone's getting paid 100 per hour (PH), it took 4 years for them to get 1 raise to 120 PH. Someone else got paid 10 an hour, but they got 4 raises and now they're at 90 PH. But the 120 person is complaining they didn't get 4 raises they only got 1 and that they have it worse when they're still getting more.
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@NVerde said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2872078#Comment_2872078
I'm a bit confused here. You say that killer's enjoyment of the game is waning which is why they face-camp - but can any killers please explain to me how face-camping is fun? Even if you don't kill anyone, surely chasing after survivors is more fun than hooking them and just standing still for a couple of minutes until they die. Someone make it make sense!
I can only speak secondhand because camping bores me to the point I'd really rather just play something else than camp, so I don't do it.
But from what I can understand its basically "I'm not having fun chasing someone and having to break 15 pallets for 1 down while 3 gens pop and struggling to get 1 kill by the end. So if I'm already not having fun, I might as well not have fun but get 2 kills by camping and having the survivors come to me."
It sucks because they're right. They get better results while having the same lack of fun. They want chases to be fun, but with the amount of pallets, safe loops, and second chance perks to just negate when the killer does do something (DH) they just aren't. The survivors have too much power in chases to the point the killer just feels frustrated and helpless, relying on the survivor to mess up rather than making their own opportunity.
So if chases aren't fun, then the game isn't fun. They figure they might as well focus on results.
Exceptions being the killers who can actually do something like Nurse, Blight, and Spirit.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2874651#Comment_2874651
Well, when a survivor is Interrupted while healing, I am going to commit to them and get the down. The regression is pointless unless they would have managed to escape, in which case, it still doesn't matter because they escaped and will get healed regardless. You might say it earned you time. But if they got away and still managed to heal, you are already so behind that realistically you aren't winning outside of some obscene circumstances.
Even letting survivors get to the point where they are healing in the first place is already a misplay at higher levels, quite frankly. That means you just let them go instead of tunneling them out, which would be an odd decision if you were trying to win.
If they were body blocking your tunnel victim, you wouldn't have time to interrupt them regardless. So it has no influence on the outcome.
It provides absolutely nothing to me if I am trying to win. At least hemmorage helps you find people when the scratch marks are bugging out. It is not much, but it was something...
Yeah I see what you're saying. It sounds good on paper like "oh wow I can regress their healing" but in practice it won't do anything when you consider the steps needed for it require you to be in a losing situation twice back to back for very little comparative value.
I already thought it wasn't going to be great and too situational but that's just sad. Thank you for expanding on it.
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@ThiccBudhha said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2874486#Comment_2874486
Honestly, those buffs are trash. I would rather not have them at all. I genuinely do not understand why they even bothered. My theory is because so many people play those two, they just felt it made sense to give them some quality of life updates as it wouldn't be a waste of resources given people actually play them. However, to suggest those changes were an actual attempt at bumping either killer up a tier is laughable at best and realistically only something a survivor main would say, in my humble opinion.
Especially when they nerfed hemmorage and presented it as a buff. I am not sure who is supposed to fall for that. It reminds me of when a developer actually stated hit validation was killer favored... Before they reverted it. Do not get me wrong, I am glad they reverted it. The best change they ever made and it shocks me to this day that they actually fixed it. However, just the fact that they even tried to gaslight us leaves me feeling slightly disturbed.
I digress, I will stop pointing out the discrepancy when the discrepancy ceases to exist. Not that I expect it to, and personally? I am biased in favor of keeping the game survivor sided. I am not going to lie about it for internet points, though. And I do not care if the usual suspects have an issue with it.
Why do you consider the hemmorage change a nerf out of curiosity? You would prefer more blood over heal regression?
Just to be clear, I'm not saying I disagree necessarily, I just haven't heard/seen a point made against it till now outside CoH existing.
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@MigrantTheGreat said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2872101#Comment_2872101
As I've told you multiple times! Stop looking at the small picture and look at the big picture!
Hemorrhage update, is pretty much BHVR ignoring the fact CoH exist
Legion update: As a gold rank survivor player, I haven't seen Legion since the dinosaurs. But they're updating a D-Tier killer to keep them at D-Tier
James update: It's good they're updating him, but they still completely ignored the issue with him. It takes too long for him to get Night Shroud back
Yeah I agree, these changes won't do much in the overall scheme of things for those reasons among others.
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@Munqaxus said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2873323#Comment_2873323
Oh yes, the Boil Over buff and the nerf that shortly followed after that made Boil Over a useless perk again. And CoH has already gotten 2 nerfs.
Dead Mans Switch, that got buffed for killers at the same time Boil Over got buffed survivors, Dead Man's Switch didn't however, get nerfed into oblivion, like Boil Over. In fact, that entire patch, survivors didn't get anything worth while. Then we have the Onyro release in which survivors didn't get anything. Now we have another patch in which there are killer buffs and no survivor buffs.
That's 3 patches in a row where survivors haven't gotten anything.
Again you're talking quantity while the problem is quality. CoH got tickled with the nerfs, hence it still running the meta right now. Boil over wasn't "nerfed into oblivion" just because you can't abuse it to hell and back anymore, its still decently good on any map with elevation. Dead mans switch didn't break the game wide open and cause unwinnable scenarios on a frequent basis, so its not even comparable to the boil over change at that time. It was 1 for 1 but survivors got the perk that broke the game.
The survivor changes, like CoH, have much bigger impacts and benefits. Not to mention mid tier killers being nerfed like Pinhead and Slinger while DH is still untouched to this day. They're not nerfing self care and pharmacy, so why are we nerfing mid tier things on the killer side?
5% and 15 seconds on 2 of the weakest killers isn't going to change much of anything, so survivor biased players need to stop acting like killers got a DH and CoH equivalent just because its something. Just to be clear I'm speaking in general here, not trying to target anyone in particular.
Give me another Spirit or Blight that can actually stand up to survivors and then we can count 1 for 1, not when killers get things like Onryo, a weak killer, and 2 of the weakest killers getting a little better and try to say that its on the same level and counts just as much as survivors getting CoH and BO becoming a game breaking perk that got rightfully changed into a perk that's still good on a decent number of maps.
You can give me 5 peanuts, I'd still prefer the 1 turkey. Just because 5 is a bigger number doesn't mean its better, you're still catering to 1 side more than the other.
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@dallasmedicbag said:
cater to survivors too much? there's literally an update with all killer buffs and survivor nerfs coming really soon.
Those little buffs wont change much of anything, both killers will still be weak unless we get some busted non-iridescent add-ons (very unlikely), and if the survivors get nerfs on the level of the CoH change that also won't change anything.
Its not that they give killers literally nothing, its that they let survivors have a lot more. They cater to one side over the other. As I said earlier, killers eat a peanut, survivors eat a whole turkey.
Survivors got CoH and Boil Over largely changing/breaking the game, killers get 5% and 15 seconds on some of the worst killer powers around.
They'll be a little better sure, but its nothing compared to what survivors get/have.
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I feel like CoH is gonna make the change dead in the water. It doesn't really matter if healing regresses if they heal in 10 seconds so you can't realistically interrupt them.
Here's hoping though.
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@Aven_Fallen said:
Just love it that they just dropped another Dev-Notes full of Killer-Buffs and STILL people say that the Devs cater to Survivors.
Yikes³
Because, in recent times, when survivors get buffs we see things Like COH and Boil Over that break the game and maps like the game getting unreasonable tons of pallets, Killers got 5% on the weakest killer in the game and 15 seconds on another contender. The killers will still be weak after, just not as weak. Meanwhile DH and CoH are running around.
Killers have 1 piece of sandwich bread and survivors have a fully stocked fridge, they give killers a peanut and give survivors a whole damn turkey. But sure the peanut makes everything ok.
Basically, just because they gave killers something doesn't mean nothing else matters.
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I'd be into it. I'm all for the more unusual killers.
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+ 1 for Legion.
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Alright, remove hatch and survivors can't stop the unhook animation anymore, once they press it they're committed.
Idk why survivors continue to unhook in the killers face and get surprised when it backfires.
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@DangerScouse said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2847366#Comment_2847366
One of the best articulated and factual posts I've read for a while. Great points.
Thank you, it's nice to know it was well received 🙂
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Been playing since 2018 just after clowns release and have been playing both sides since I started. I won't get into too much detail in this particular post unless you want an entire book, but my general thoughts on the 7 categories:
- The killer balance is poor imo, too small of a pool is viable. I think differentiating "Killer" from "Nurse, Blight, Spirit" is important here. The few killers at the top might be fine, but the vast majority of the killer roster isn't. A team of 4 good survivors will win against a good killer in most cases. Game in general favors survivor way too often, Killer as a whole is underpowered.
- From my perspective, the good survivor perks are way too strong or have no consideration to multiple being run; and they give killer perks too many conditions/CDs (see Dragons Grip). Perks need to be addressed faster and with bigger changes. DH and CoH are really hurting the game and have been for a while now, they should have been addressed by now. Like CoH breaking the game? Eh, barely nerf it. Even easy fixes like removing collision from BT aren't even talked about. The strong survivor perks do too much when multiple are running them, which is going to happen if they're strong. Boons are too much if even 1 gets put up. Giving survivors "free" health states/second chances is too common. Boons are just better hexes when that should really be reversed. On the other end perks like Monstrous Shrine and Slippery Meat have been left untouched for eons.
- Maps generally are too big and have too many pallets/safe loops. Obviously depends on which map but in general maps favor survivors too heavily/often. Breakable walls were badly executed and just make god loops, they put way too many in a lot of maps as well. Gen times are tied to this as gens go too fast for how long it takes to get a down, and it takes so long to get a down because of the map design. One needs to change, gens or chase times. So its either longer chases and longer objectives, or shorter chases and shorter objectives, not longer chases but short objectives like it currently is.
- Med kits have always been a problem but healing in general seems to always be a problem. Maybe base healing should just take longer idk. Toolboxes exacerbate the already problematic gen times. Broken key should have something base kit and not be reliant on add-ons just to function. Maps need more base duration. Flashlight just needs to get fixed/changed so you can't get blinded by someone not even on your screen.
- Add-ons are a wild spectrum, and that's kind of a problem imo. There's killers that have mostly trash add-ons like PH, then you have killers like Blight and Myers whose add-ons can get very strong if not outright broken. They need to be brought more towards a middle ground. On the survivor side, add-ons feel more appropriately tuned because the items all do their job at base minus the broken key, so the add-ons are just a little extra for the most part. Some are really really strong like the syringe and the Styptic (bottled time). Add-on balance is all over the place.
- My main gripe with offering is map and hook offerings, they should just be removed imho. 9/10 times they're just used to abuse a map in one way or another. Mori's feel weak now, before they were definitely too strong but now it feels like a waste to even use them.
- Luck just has a little too much variance and impact and can be reigned in a little. Gates should always spawn on opposite sides of the map for example. 4% needs to go imo, it just lets survivors self sacrifice or get a unhook that can change the entire game and makes killer's camp for fear of them getting off when they have everyone else down/dead.
They need to start balancing the game around good survivors with communication. Right now it seems like they balance around bad survivors and survivors with no communication so when either of these aren't true the game falls apart really fast. 4 good solos will still run over most of the killer roster. They also need to give survivors a chat wheel/ping system.
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"So basically just a basic attack killer?"
Yes.
"I've tried spamming rteleports"
Condemn was intended to be a time waster, but as is now it can pretty much be ignored afaik. So pretty much act like its not even there, focus on using TV's to be at key locations when needed.
"I see others complaining this killer is OP"
Those people have no idea what they're talking about.
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As above stated, tapes if you really don't want her to teleport to your gen. There's also normal BBQ counter-play like lockers and ect. if that's your concern.
Besides that she's just an M1 killer.
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"the stats will confirm how poor performing she is."
wouldn't count on it as the stats have Pinhead and Pig having high kill rates despite being mediocre at best due to more survivors being genuinely bad at the game than good ones.
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Stay away.
If you're going to play regardless just stick to Blight, Nurse, Spirt and such.
"What do people think of the new maps? Killers? Perks and stuff."
Still survivor sided, especially with "Boon: Circle Of Healing" (CoH) running around.
In case you're unaware, survivors have hexes now called "boons" except they can pick where they are and can relight them unlimited number of times. So basically hexes without the downside of being hexes.
CoH gives everyone selfcare with a healing speed buff. Even harder to keep up pressure than before as it all gets undone in half the time it took you to get it or less. Hit and run is dead with CoH around so don't try to use that strategy, you have to commit to chases now.
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idk about "wrong" but its stronger than it should be and unhealthy for the game. Like tunneling, no one likes when its happening, but its the best way to win.
It also puts the killer in a lose-lose where they either leave the survivor or waste way too much time chasing them, either way the survivor gets what they want.
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Yup.
Either play the 10% of the killer roster that can compete, or lose if the survivors have any skill.
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@psionic said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2838172#Comment_2838172
My concern is that this situation can be abusable by players, you know, people love to be jerks, once they realize that this can affect other players, they will do it on purpose.
I am also concerned (and a little angry) especially with how much the community, especially the survivor side, can be petty babies.
"Oh the killer has corrupt, I hate that perk, lets hurt him. I know! seizure tech!"
This is affecting peoples health outside the game in a serious way, its been talked about for a while and BHVR have just glossed over it and swept it under the rug afaik.
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As long as only 3-4 killers are viable and/or killers need their best addons just to compete with what survivors can do with just perks, it always will be.
As long as the maps have the amount of pallets (especially safe ones), loops, and map sizes currently in the game, it always will be.
As long as we have the current balance team and whoever else makes decisions on maps and gameplay elements, it always will be.
I don't see any of that changing.
No, Nurse, Blight, and Spirit don't make the game balanced when the other 90% of the roster can't compete. Survivor sided doesn't mean "in literally every situation survivors win", in the overwhelming majority of situations survivors have a significant advantage and need to mess up out of it.
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Hope your cousin is ok.
This really needs to be addressed in some way, either by in game changes or bans.
Endangering peoples health just to be a toxic waste of breath jerk is not ok and BHVR is just letting them do it.
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Unlucky or MMR/Matchmaking with low skill or new killers.
NoED is only good against less than good survivors, so its not meta. Very unfun to go against, but not meta.