Moundshroud
Moundshroud
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@whammigobambam said:
Can we stop ignoring the fact that if you stay in the game against a strong camping killer you give that killer snowball potential that you need a perk to survive get out of? If I'm running no second chance perks as I'm want to do and I'm deep in the thralls of trapper camp the longer I stay there, the higher probability someone gets snared in the trap. If you've played 20 or so matches playing super altruistic god forbid you just don't want people dying on your behalf. It's not exactly cowardice. Even chess has a forfeit option.
This is nonsense; outside of the Potato Ranks, Killers don't get to snowball on inexperienced altruism. I'm going to make this crystal clear for you since you seem to not be getting (or refuse to accept) the obvious. Survivors are a 4v1 and an only afford to lose one of their own after a minimum of certain objectives have been met to even still have a chance. Even when those objectives have been met, you are still deeply wounding the chances of the others by checking out.
In short, having some chance is better than having no chance. Your argument that you are just taking the coward's way out to keep someone safe is just another attempt to make excuses or try to dress up being selfish as being noble. We are talking about two minutes of your time. That is how long it takes to get sacrificed on the hook. You stick out that time to give the others the best chance of survival just as you will one game want them to do the same for you. And you know what, more often than not they will find a way to get you off that hook if/when you try. If you suicide you get certain death, and pretty much sentence them to the same.
It is absolutely selfish cowardice.
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@[Deleted User] said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1927228#Comment_1927228
I can't understand what you are trying to say, really. I think you mistook how I said it.
By bad killers I meant bad KILLERS, not bad PLAYERS.
Oh? You are inferring that certain Killers have such poor power compared to the top end that they can only win with a 3-Gen? Is that what you intended to say? So whereas a Freddy has no need of it, a Trapper might?
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@[Deleted User] said:
The 3 generator strategy is sometimes, especially on bad killers, the only way to win as killer, so not at all. Game will eventually end: it's up to the survivors to attempt to finish generators or delay the inevitable by hiding forever, which can actually be holding the game hostage if it's a very long amount of time.
Killers have lots of ways to win. Survivors only have themselves to blame if they allow themselves to get 3-Gen'd. It is, after all, the most basic, well-known strategy employed by Killers. Survivors pick which Generators they will work on at the start of the game, and for the most part throughout the game. The Killer can only push them with pressure. There are four Survivors to one Killer so he/she cannot be everywhere. So would you care to revise your biased, foolish statement? Because:
- Only GOOD Killers have the finesse to actually manipulate you into giving them a 3-Gen to defend.
- Only BAD Survivors do the easiest Generators, one right next to another all one one side of the map.
The only way a "bad" Killer, and by that I assume you mean one that doesn't know much yet, can get a 3-Gen is if the SURVIVORS give him/her one. A Killer that can orchestrate one is by definition a very talented Killer.
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@km66 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1926951#Comment_1926951
- It made sense to me.
- Solo uses it for the same reasons and as anti-tunneling
- Can’t you be nice?
No, I can't be nice when people do not use the brain nature granted them. The change in the Perk doesn't affect the anti-tunneling side of it at all. And no, Solo don't use it the same way. I fight enough SWF and Solo to know.
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All the discussions of constructive feedback versus slander or libel, etc. are entirely beside the point. I love it when people dabble in being legal eagles, but there is something else going on here that makes such things irrelevant here. This Forum is the exclusive property of the company who set it up. To get in and post here you had to agree to their terms of behavior. Said terms also grant them the right to remove any post they see fit, whether it meets any legal criteria for slander or libel or not. They can remove it just because they feel like it.
Are they doing that? No, of course not. The Mods here are extremely even-handed. I'm merely pointing out that all this lofty talk about what can and cannot be said is moot. Nobody is censoring anyone because this isn't really a "public" forum. It doesn't belong to the general public. You can go and say whatever you want on an actual public forum (although they are few and far between), or you can host your own forum and set your own rules. This is a private club, albeit one they don't make that difficult to get into.
So, let me give you my best legal eagle closing and sum this up. You are wasting your breath when you talk about what they can and cannot do. You are are wasting your passion and energy, misdirecting it if you think that free of speech rights are being fought over on this battlefield. Surely, with all this energy one could be fighting for free speech and "actual" causes that matter rather than pretending to be self-righteous over a video game that you "choose" to play, and have already agreed to all its terms (as well as the ones for this forum).
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@Timo_______R said:
Ds and ooo Nerf sucks i know but 3-4 man swf won´t even be affect as much as solo survivor.
Playing solo or 2 man swf is more dependent on luck, latency, hitbox, dc and bad teammates, now they give other players even an excuse to not do anything useful, i can see easily survivor not doing gens or anything with an excuse now beacuse otherwise they ds will be deactivated (cry).
Every Change they do makes playing solo more and more a living hell.
Everyone knows that a complete SWF group is a major reason what is making this game unbalanced, so why are they making it worse for everyone else.
Everyone complains that this game is so full of SWF survivors and some of them even toxic, but what do you expect?
This game is getting more and more of a game which you can only play as a team and still everyone gets off on every nerf even if it is justified like ds.
You know that will happen? The person who has Ds will not do anything to keep ds or just dont care and the other 3 will Constantly doing gens. Give 1 person Detectives hunch and bye bye noed. There is easily no other objective left and everyone will be unsatisfied again.
That´s why there are mostly noobs and Storng Swf groups, you all can applause yourself good job
Thanks for making this game unplayable for solo player. I´m out.
- Nobody had to say it, because it was a nonsensical statement.
- Solo Survivors were never using that Perk to jump on objectives in the Killer's face anyway; that is a SWF tactic.
- Nobody will miss you; happy trails!
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Calm Spirit works exactly as intended now. It is a solid, general purpose Perk which is never wasted because you always get at least a little something out of it. If anything the Perk (as it is now) sets a benchmark for utility that I wish all Perks would attain.
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@gatsby said:
I just had a Ghost Face game where a Felix brought a Haddonfield offering. He had Balanced Landing, Decisive Strike, Unbreakable and Borrowed Time. The game was painful but I managed to kill everyone.
The ending with the Felix was long Haddonfield chase into balanced landing into hook bomb with BT into slugging the Felix to get his BT save into his Unbreakable into another balanced landing Haddonfield chase.
The game was over. There was no way that Felix and his other teammate could escape. Why did he have to troll me for 3-4 minutes? Like just stop.
Points. The longer the game goes, the more chases he gets into and escapes, the more points and emblem advancement he earns. I would do the same thing, fight to the bitter end and learn all I can. If nothing else, extended chases are practice. This is the game. You shouldn't expect anyone to roll over and die for your convenience. If you are tired of chasing him, don't close the hatch.
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I don't know why I tilt with these windmills, but here we go again.
- No, NOED does NOT need to change.
- It is no worse (better for the Survivor actually) than any of the many other Insta-Down Powers and Perks.
- You have the ability to Counter it both before it goes off and after it is on. Do Bones.
- You know when it is going to trigger exactly, something the other Insta-Downs doesn't afford you.
- Just because NOED is triggered doesn't mean the Killer instantly finds you, downs you, gets you to a hook.
- You can still hide, loop, rescue, etc. You can do all the things you did before.
- The Killer might go to the wrong gate.
- The Killer might get ONE person down and then squat like a toad on the one Kill, letting the rest of you out.
- There are MANY good Perks to find and exterminate Bones with extreme Prejudice.
- There are Perks and Add-Ons which can prevent the Insta-Down (Stypic Agent is a favorite of mine).
But I'll play Devil's Advocate; if NOED were to be changed, it should get more harsh and make it crystal clear that you SHOULD be doing Bones. It takes (16) seconds to cleanse a Totem under normal conditions and every Survivors spots 1-3 of them as they move around the map. There are only five Totems and four Survivors. If you took a little time away from squatting and self-caring yourself around the map NOED would be zero issue. We know this for a fact because while Undying+Ruin was running rampant, everyone was doing Bones. During that period, complains about NOED dropped to almost nothing. It just wasn't happening that often because people took the time to do the OTHER objective. Bones are also an objective and the DEV want you to do them. That is why NOED is a basic Perk that we all get access to almost immediately. So if I were to change it I would do the following:
- NOED activates the same as normal.
- Anyone who has not cleansed at least (1) Totem so far will be Exposed until NOED is cleansed.
- Anyone who has cleansed at least (1) Totem is NOT Exposed.
- The switch which operates the gate is blocked for an amount of time based on how many Totems are left. 1 Totems = 10 Seconds, 2 Totems = 20 Seconds, 3 Totems = 30 Seconds, 4 Totems = 45 Seconds, and 5 Totems = 60 seconds.
My method would punish people who did not do Bones MORE than the others, but the Team will still be hindered in getting out unless they have done Bones. The more you have done, the less a problem it will be. So, do you like MY way which makes it crystal clear to you that you and your team should be doing Bones, or do you think it is fine as it is now?
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@Iosefka said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1925860#Comment_1925860
If tunneling exist then killer must be punished, lose ranks and gain only 3 or 4k BP. Also tunneled survivor needs to be rewarded. If you don't agree on this, you are biased
You are so reasonable... it brought this to my mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wzr12gBrXA8 -
@Iosefka said:
Please change the numbers, make it like 240 seconds
Your crazy suggestion makes no sense.
- It has always been 60 seconds.
- The change to DS doesn't alter its protective quality against tunneling at all.
- The only thing it prevents is jumping on objectives and doing them in the Killer's face.
So... let me address your hysteria properly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbnCZT5R8Ss -
@Jejune said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920736#Comment_1920736
Whats the alternative? Do nothing? I can live with camping because its almost impossible for counter right now. But tunneling should be fixed. The only way to make killers stop is to make it harder to go for same person.
Yes, it is up to YOU to make it harder for them to go for the same person. Things like Borrowed Time help you with that. It is awesome if you do a safe rescue in the first place. And it is even BETTER if you don't unhook the person and vanish Ninja-like so the returning Killer has really only one option. In other words, you should be fresh and taking that protection hit. The tools to prevent Tunneling already exist. Survivors need to implement them. That is the game; that is YOUR job.
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@EvanSnowWolf said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/224660/psa-why-moundshroud-might-be-a-jerk
When you say "work with the Killer" what exactly do you mean? You mean Survivors ratting out other Survivors? Or are you anti-farm matches? Are you opposed to Killers letting the last Survivor escape? I require additional context!
I mean the Survivor comes up to me and tries to point out and lead me to other Survivors. It happens all the time.
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@Superyoshiegg said:
Alright...
The chances of someone reading this and specifically encountering you later doing this in game who would otherwise have no context on why, is pretty low I think.
You really don't need to try and make a justification post on why you're slugging people.
That isn't why I made the post. I'm letting other Killers, who also don't approve of cheating behavior, know how I'm handling it. I think it would be great if the trend caught on. Survivors trying to work with the Killer is quite an epidemic. I want them to suffer for it.
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@kurtisohhbee said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1924705#Comment_1924705
So if each gen takes 80 seconds and there's 5 of them to do with finding them in between, let's say with multiple survivors doing gens at the same time, that's a bare minimum of 4 minutes solid without any interruption whatsoever, (6 and a half if each gen goes separately). That means the survivor looping also can't use certain resources because they constantly need to be in an area of the map where there is no gen being worked on. Some maps don't even have enough resources for that. Then on top of that you have to worry about killers like nurse, spirit, doctor, deathslinger, huntress and billy which in theory deduct from your ability to loop for obvious reasons. So if a survivor isn't able to play against all these different factors at once and gets caught then doesn't even get a chance to move again until they're dead, that makes them bad?
Also if people don't take protection hits whilst you're being tunnelled and don't perform safe rescues is your own fault?
Your comment didn't make much sense there.
There's also a lot of bs and bugs in this game, besides favouriting killer connection. It's a regular occurrence to be hit through a pallet stun or 2-3 steps away from a window. I've even dropped shack pallet before and been downed past the middle of the shack near lockers while killer is still on the other side. How do you suppose you play against that? Or does that make you bad as well?
I was going to do a typical Moundshroud and destroy you with the rhetorical hammer, taking each of your poorly thought out statements apart. Someone suggested the velvet glove. This is as close as I can get. There are two kinds of people, those that run into obstacles and redouble their efforts to find a way around them, and those who simply complain.
There are those that OWN their failures in order to get better. Then there are those that blame anyone and everything else they can. Everyone runs into the same adversity you do, and most people manage to overcome it or at least face it with dignity. You should try that.
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@kurtisohhbee said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1924638#Comment_1924638
No, I'm talking about whichever survivor is caught first to be repeatedly downed straight off of hook and camped, not whichever survivor is making mistakes being downed. I mean like 1st hook, saved, hit straight back down without even being out of unhook animation for half a second, using ds, getting 10 steps away before killer can move, being chased again for another 2 minutes or so, downed and hooked again and then insta downed the minute I get unhooked and thrown straight back on because they know I have no ds now. That sort of tunnelling scumbag all before the second gen gets popped lol
Again, while this is going to sound harsh... that doesn't define "bad" Killer. That defines bad Survivors. It means the Survivor can't loop, nobody is taking protection hits, and nobody is doing safe rescues. Stop blaming OTHER people for personal failures.
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@kurtisohhbee said:
The amount of games I get where I’m tunnelled right off the bat is an absolute joke. My very first game this morning I went in to, had to crouch walk around the map (against spirit) as gens were blocked, somehow she knew where I was around a corner although no aura perks would have been activated. I went down, got saved and she phase walked back to hook and waited for me to get unhooked before striking me down again.
So when the game puts people with killers who clearly can’t play the game properly or fairly, the survivor either has to wait and waste more time just to be tunnelled and camped to kill themselves and lose a pip, or disconnect and lose the pip anyway but get slapped with a time-out.
I feel there should be either a passive perk running for every survivor when there are 3-4 in trial to deter tunnelling, such as borrowed time effect for 20 seconds passively after being off the hook, or maybe some sort of ‘fresh meat’ point system for killer which would encourage them to go for someone else and lose points for re-hooking the same survivor continuously.
Killers will ALWAYS catch survivors during a trial, but it’s really unfair how survivors take the backlash of a killers inability to play the game properly or fairly. The game rewards tunnelling and facecamping too much and I think the reason the community is getting so thin is because people just can’t be bothered to waste their time any more when it could be better spent playing another game that isn’t so aggravating.
I’m all for trying to avoid being tunnelled once I’ve been downed (obviously) and even had team mates come to take hits while I’m being tunnelled but these shameless losers just have no other interest than to ruin everyone else’s game and waste people’s time just to earn their bloodpoints in a cheap and easy manner?
For the record I don’t necessarily oppose to tunnelling a cocky survivor or someone who is clearly trying to grief killers. I play both survivor and killer and I never tunnel or camp, as I don’t like it when it’s done to me, (also I can play properly and get a 4k without doing it so there’s no need).
I’m expecting some comments from salty killers/tunnellers/face campers and all I’d say to you is try and think about what you’re taking away from other people trying to enjoy a game just because you won’t commit to playing well enough that everyone gets a fair chance.
It sounds like GOOD Killers punished you for bad play. I'm not trying to be mean. I spot people all the time without auras. You could have disturbed a crow. The Killer spotted you far sooner than you think and just knew where you were headed.
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@CLAUDETTEINABUSH said:
I stayed silent about this topic, because I really wanted to see the community's reaction. These are simply observations, so let's dive straight in.
Starting from the killer side, some killer mains when they heard the news, had to quickly change their pants, because they have almost 30 forums complaining about Ds and bhvr finally heard their prayers.
The other 50% of the killer playerbase, maybe less than 50, don't really give a #########, because it was something that they could predict and play around, but it was a good change, they suppose
On the other side of the spectrum, some survivor mains deleted the game the moment they heard about the ds change, because they were so addicted on running it. They think it's totally fair to do a gen in front of the killer because they have ds, or finish 1 gen with a teammate, get downed and still having ds active. These players either complain in the forums or they cry in bed because bhvr betrayed their trust.
Now the other half, and more reasonable survivor playerbase are kinda annoyed that they can't do gens because ds will deactivate, but they guess that the change was worth making because ds was mega powerful. They will probably remove it from their build, but it's not the end of the world for them.
What do you guys think about my observations? Notify me down below.
I don't think there is anything logically wrong with your thoughts. The only issue I take is the notion that this Forum is the "community" when it most certainly is not. It isn't even a good representation of the community. For every person who has EVER posted here, there are hundreds upon hundreds that just log in and play the game. They are oblivious to the existence of this Forum or simply cannot be bothered. Do you get my point?
Forums are not a poll. Forums are more like a call in radio show. The only people who bother are the people so easily angered and self-righteous (note that post here too) that they cannot help themselves. Most people, the actual community, are quite satisfied. Thus it is always dangerous to apply any lessons or trends we see here on the Forums to the actual game or populace of people playing the game.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIgfiSzCy1o@cburton311 said:
Here is a take I haven't seen yet that I want to make sure gets out there for discussion.
First let's not delude ourselves thinking that this isn't a hard nerf to DS. DS was used to protect survivors not just in scenarios where "tunnelling" occurred. Its more abusive uses were a reason the perk was used and removing those abusive uses will reduce the value of decisive strike.
Undoubtedly, decisive strike feels bad for killers but it does encourage survivors to be out in the open doing things. The alternative might be without this safety net (crutch) survivors will draw back and hide in the shadows more. Will they do more immersive, hit and run tactics? Maybe all won't, but I would expect this behavior to increase, which will slow the pace of the game down.
There will be a titanic shift in the meta once this goes live, I just wonder if this is will make the game what we want it to be.
Hardly.
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@Orionbash said:
No, seriously. It's honestly crazy how many PC survivors ragequit because they go down too fast. Three games in a row today I had at least 1 PC survivor ragequit because they got downed in seconds. You leave your team at a 3v1 disadvantage and that makes the game insanely difficult if not impossible depending on the skill of the killer.
I can tell you that I haven't noticed there being any more PC Players than Console Players that rage quit. In fact, as there are MORE Console Players, I see far more of them DC on a daily basis. Statistically, I think the percentages are probably the same. Bad sports, spoiled and entitled losers seem to come in an inexhaustible supply.
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I'd like to see Leatherface reworked. It isn't that I think he is OP per say, but that his learning curve is zero. He is an M1 Killer with Insta-Down who is 115%, so the slow down during the tantrum is moot. He isn't going to tantrum until he is on top of you anyway. The stereotype of the Basement Bubba is deserved because why wouldn't he camp the basement? His tantrum pretty much assures he will get both people. Obviously, I just stay away from the basement if possible, and I don't constantly lose to Bubba, but the games are never fun. They are tedious and repetitive. There is NEVER any variation in Bubba playstyle because he is so basic.
*And as a side note, because there is no learning curve, I run into Bubba more than any OTHER Killer.
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@Sasha233 said:
I main survivor and have ~1k hrs in and have always been in red rank. However my killer sucks absolute ass and especially when I play a weaker killer for daily or achievements, I sometimes get demolished by a team average rank 10.
It takes me extremely long to mentally prepare myself to queue for a killer match, and when I do get destroyed, I won't want to play in at least a few days. I feel utterly defeated when the survivors tbag me at the exit and type ez in the post game chat. I don't want to disable the chat tho- I love having interactions with other players.
I sometimes go afk and let myself derank for a bit to finally get myself together to play again, but as I inevitebly rank up, I run into very good (and toxic) players again that would humiliate me and make me question my existence.
So question for killer mains, how did you grow thicker skin and managed to stop caring about the match outcomes?
Revenge is a dish best served cold. You just take your lumps and work towards where you will be giving them the 4K over and over again. Besides, ask yourself if you really care what some faceless squawking moron on the internet chats at you? Do not subjugate yourself to the demons of "external validation" and you will be just fine.
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I get snarky with them because I believe in Tough Love. Nobody gets better at this game until they stop blaming other Players (or the game itself) for their problems. NOED is a basic Perk and it isn't going anywhere. The sooner they accept that they can spend the pointless energy the expend here on learning the proper counters.
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@golubushka08 said:
Please decrease the speed of the killer at least. Make him walk at his normal speed. The perk is too OP.
I'm going to clue you in on something early, and I know you won't believe me. NOED is no big deal. Of all the things that grant Killer an Insta-Down, it is the most predictable and most easily countered. The only reason people whine and cry about it is that they THINK they deserve the win the second the last Generator powers up. It feels like a rug getting pulled out from under you when you were so close. Get over it. You don't deserve anything; you earn a win by getting out the gates and not before.
Look, there are Killers who have Insta-Down the entire game, i.e. chainsa-wielding maniacs. There countless Killers who can power up to Insta-Down and/or use Perks to get it. None of these is any less biting than NOED. Most of them are more effective. The only thing NOED has over you is perception, this entitled notion that you were robbed. I repeat; get over it.
You know when NOED will start. You have all match to counter it by doing Bones. You can even counter it after it has been lit and turn it back off. And last but not least, just because NOED is on doesn't mean the Killer will pick the right gate, find you, or down you. This Insta-Down has so many outs it isn't even funny. So, do I really need to say this a third time? Get over it.
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Interesting but not really something that you can scale. A better way to fix it would be thus:
- A Monstrous Shrine requires a successful Skill check to unhook the Survivor.
- A Failure not only doesn't unhook, it injures the would-be rescuer.
- The amount of time between Skill checks is random at Level-1, every 5 seconds at Level-2, and every 3 seconds at Level-3,
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Calm Spirit. I had a Doc basically state that I beat him the moment I added "that" Perk.
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@gendoss said:
Something that has always held me back from using OoO is how toxic it can be and how annoying it can be for killers. If the proposed version were to go live would killers still think it would be toxic to use OoO? To me it almost seems like a better version of alert.
Neither the current OoO or the new one is problematic on a Solo. The current version is often abused heavily by a Team (SWF) because everyone on the team knows everything due to the SWF's 5th Perk (Comms). The amount of havoc that can be wrought upon the Killer is truly amazing. The proposed version would be less problematic because while the OoO user can still provide their info to the team, it isn't constant Killer oversight. There are blind spots and quite frankly that is all a Killer needs to move against a SWF.
One of the reasons Stealth Killers tend to perform better against a SWF is because they disrupt that flow of information. For example, I'm a Myer's main. I would rather take Spooky Myers (Cracked Mirror + Boyfriend's Memo) against a SWF on MOST maps than a normal Myers because tracking me is much harder. I have no Terror radius for them to report on, I have no Aura for OoO (or any Perk) to track, and no Red Stain. The only way they can have eyes on me is by having eyes on me. Consider the following dialog that normally goes on between members of a SWF:
"I'm at the Pig Tree and I've got a heartbeat!"
"I'm in the Thompson House and my Spine Chill is going off the Killer is here!"
"I've got the Killer in my sites (OoO); he is heading directly toward the Fun Bus behind the Killer shack... wait... turning back to the Killer shack."
And on and on it goes. Information Perks are nice but not abusive on their own. The SWF's 5th Perk (Comms) is a force amplifier, however, and really has no balancing factors currently in the game. I've even fought a SWF where every member had OoO and used a strategy of constantly turning away while another turned in so that they always had eyes on you period and could do Gens at the extremes.
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@BitingSea said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1921374#Comment_1921374
I'm not saying it's like cheating or anything I'm just saying it's annoying af you're the one trying to be victim
Depends on how you look at it. To me it is a free hit; and I never look a gift horse in the mouth. Chances are, if they are trying to body block there are a couple of things going on:
- You are in the end game and the gates are open. You are chasing an injured Survivor and fresh ones are trying to get in your way, knowing that after the hit everyone will get out. Sure, this is going to be annoying, but that is the game.
- You are chasing someone who is facing death hook, and the others know it. Most likely they are a SWF and being super altruistic because of it. Take the free hit; why not? Then you have a choice of two injured targets to chase.
- You are tunneling someone and they know it.
I'm not arguing just for the sake of argument. I'm just trying to understand why body blocking would bother you. The only time it is lose/lose is situation #1 I list above. And let's be honest, if you are in situation #1 above, you have pretty much already lost the game. Every other time it is a win/win for the Killer.
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@BitingSea said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1921341#Comment_1921341
Running behind someone isn't a challenge you're literally just annoying the killer, how is that calculated at all
If they are running "behind" you they are not body blocking. The Killer is faster than Survivors. Let's get something straight. Your job is to kill as many Survivors as you can. They are your objective. The Survivors get points for getting out alive, and to do that they need one another. Begrudging them one of the ways they can take protection hits shows you to be a very poor sport.
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@BitingSea said:
Is annoying as hell to deal with as killer and it really just reminds me that a lot of survivors really aren't in it for the fun
What do you mean? The fun is in the challenge, and taking a calculated risk to protect your teammates is the heart and soul of the game. I'm not sure I follow your logic.
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No, what I'm suggesting is that IF the hooked Survivor makes attempts to unhook themselves, and end up going to Stage-2 on that Hook, the Killer gets credit for another Hook. If they don't try to do that and/or are rescued before they go to Stage-2, the Killer doesn't get this bonus hook credit. The idea is to discourage, softly, committing suicide on the hook.
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@bm33 said:
This will encourage more slug builds especially on high mobility killers. They'll down/hook everyone at once and then be rewarded with unearned extra hook points if anyone tries and fails to unhook themselves. I'd rather my teammates attempt escape as I'm running towards them or totally hook suicide than have more killers running slug builds.
Potentially. I'm not sure it would or wouldn't because it would be easy enough to set it so once all four Survivors are down, this effect doesn't trigger. And to be honest, it can't encourage MORE slug builds than we already have. :)
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@Dragonshensi said:
Mostly a survivor main but I’m starting to dip my toes in killer. I honestly think survivors and killers need to play each other and understand really that both sides have it rough in the match but I digress.
What killer instantly kills your morale and makes you want to quit when you face off against them? Personally for me it’s either the Doctor or Leatherface. I’m not particularly good at them and anytime I faced off against them the whole team seems to get stomped. Had that happen last match where a Doctor downed half the team and we hadn’t even been able to get a gen done first. Just makes me want to suicide and be done with it.
Leatherface. He is simply too fast, and the only drawback for his Insta-Down power isn't really a drawback. Since he doesn't tantrum until he is already on top of you, the slowdown happening after the fact his moot.
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@Rydog said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920930#Comment_1920930
Not that I need to elaborate because I know you and everyone else here have been through this exact same thing and understand the frustration, but I'll use a game I played yesterday to illustrate. I get caught first by Cannibal, early in the game before any gens pop, after some decent looping. He downs me, hooks me, facecamps me with Insidious. My misplay obviously because I got downed, but I am not the best looper ever at rank 3, so you can point the finger at me, sure.
In any case, there I am on my first hook, Cannibal unmoving. I've got Kindred so everyone sees what's happening and does gens, which I would call the objectively correct play in this scenario. Three gens pop, I die after a full struggle phase, Cannibal repeats the routine with one more player. The other two get out. From where I'm sitting, the optimal play was that I had nothing to do from the hook onward except struggle. In any argument about player agency, you've got to acknowledge that: I could do nothing but hang, because the killer unilaterally decided "Screw my goals, I'm making sure this guy dies, it's early in the game and I am not even gonna care about gens."
But you can see how a rescue attempt would be a huge risk, and would set the group back and risk more deaths, as opposed to just doing gens and letting me die. I don't think anyone can argue in good faith that this kind of match is in the spirit of how the game is intended to be played, and this is a behavior pattern that I feel like the game needs to actively shoot down. I know camping has its tactical uses and on this we agree, but I also think that deterring what I have just described would result in a major net positive, despite the possibility of completely nuking some of those tactical uses. I've seen the developer argument that punishing camping/tunneling would result in more boring games (this was just mentioned on this week's stream), but I have to believe that there is a strong solution that remains to be discovered here.
I appreciate your intention for thoroughness.
A couple of things:
- You are being too hard on yourself. Of course the Cannibal eventually got you down; that is a given. Even great Loopers know that eventually the chase is going to end with them going down, or at least they go into that chase making that assumption. My point is that anytime he was chasing you was time the others SHOULD have been doing Generators.
- Consider this, the Cannibal first had to find you which probably took at least 15-30 seconds. Then the Cannibal had to chase you. You said you did some decent looping so lets assume that you ran him for 15-20 seconds. Now that he has downed you he has to get you to a hook. Let's just set aside 10 more seconds for that. Do you see where I'm going with this. We have already accounted for almost a minute. If your peers were on Generators (where they should have been) the first three Generators (at the very least two) should be popping by the time you are put on that hook or shortly thereafter.
- That means that there are still 3 Survivors out there to work on Generators for the next TWO minutes of you being squatted on by that toad the Cannibal. It means there is no reason all five Generators should not come up by the time you are being sacrificed. There should even be some time to get a gate open or nearly open.
- This means best case scenario, the Cannibal should get perhaps ONE more Survivor if he goes to the right gate and intercepts. Squatting (what I call Face Camping) is not an effective strategy unless the Survivors MAKE it effective.
So when you tell me that story I have to ask what the HELL were your teammates doing during that 1st minute while you were being chased? Clearly they were not already on Generators as the math shows they must have been doing something else.
Now all that being said, Squatters (Face Campers) are most common in the Potato Ranks. They become fewer as you advance because it simply is not an effective strategy overall if the Killer wants to earn good BP and/or Pips. More to the point, it is kind of boring. One can only do it for so long before going "Meh." I'm not saying you won't run into Squatters as you advance, I'm just stating you don't run into near as many of them. What I will suggest is that Barbecue & Chili is already an attempt on the part of the DEV (a successful one at that) to encourage Killers not to camp. It reveals to them Survivors who are far away and provides them with extra BP for going and using this information. If it weren't for that Perk, camping and tunneling would be even more common. My point here is that you will NEVER get the results you want by trying to punish Killers. The only thing that has proven effective (and not abused) has been to reward Killers for the behaviors you want.
What I have often suggested is give Killers their own version of Bold (what Survivors earn for doing things inside the Killer's terror radius). A Bold Killer is one that moves away from the hook and throws caution to the wind. Give them bonus BP or move them toward an Emblem for time spent beyond a certain range from the hook. I expect that most Killers will see the value in this because overall camping hooks is niche in value, and free BP or whatever is something few people turn down. I want you to understand that I know what you WANT to happen; I'm not arguing against that. I'm just saying that to get it you cannot:
- Take away another Player's agency.
- Or punish them for making valid, legitimate choices.
This is a situation where you simply have to make it CRYSTAL clear that the Killer profits, and they will do what you want.
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@golubushka08 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920967#Comment_1920967
You are a tunneler toxic killer then.
It's ok little one, whatever you say. :) "Good night, sweet prince. May hosts of angels sing you to sleep."
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@golubushka08 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920947#Comment_1920947
What is the Point of 1 min protection if I can't do anything!
- The Perk was never intended as one minute of "protection" so you can do whatever you want.
- You can do something, i.e. get to safety and thus avoid immediately going back on the hook.
- It provides a properly timed stunned which you can still abuse the hell out of if you are clever.
Your very attitude betrays that you are exactly the kind of person abusing the Perk which has led to why it is getting changed. Go figure.
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@HawkAyeTheNoo said:
T-bagging is a strategy.
It "can" be a strategy certainly, but more often than not it is just to irritate people. Most of the time, the Killer can tell which is which. Then there are those that linger at the gate to tea-bag the Killer which not even you can argue is a "strategy" beyond wanting to wind the Killer up.
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@golubushka08 said:
At least don't nerf the DS. It's an ocasional perk, it's not used always. And I don't want to lose 1 minute doing nothing just because I used this perk to save me from tunelers and campers. This perk is for those killers who don't know how to play this game and only tunnel someone. If a killer doesn't tunnel this perk don't activate. It's not my fault that the killer plays toxic. I'm not supposed to lose 1 minute for their toxic play.
Nice not knowing you! I hear "In Silence" is a pretty good game.
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@Rydog said:
@Moundshroud Like I said, I am just spitballing here. Maybe I am overshooting with some of the details (you are of course right to point out that 30 seconds is a LOT of time), and I did say that there are probably some holes in my thinking, so thanks for pointing out some of the ways that this could potentially be abused. The notion that this stuff can be fixed with perks is something we already know, but my idea is that these are much more fundamental issues that ought to be discouraged more by the core game mechanics, without an aggrieved player having to use their limited loadout slots to deal with them.
That's the bigger impasse here. My position -- which I stated upfront -- is that I reject the idea that these behaviors should be encouraged, outside of specific cases where the killer has nothing better to do (i.e. gens are done, so I might as well guard my kill by any means necessary). On this we seem to disagree, so any counterargument that spawns from that is fundamentally putting us at odds, because it boils down to my "this is a problem that needs to be addressed" vs. your "this is not a problem and needs no solution, because the devs said so and hence no reason for discussion."
Re: Some specific points -- my last tunneling point is specifically to say "last living survivor would still get sped thru the hook phases as they do now," which would mean it would continue to be a nonissue. And as far as the proposed BT effect, I'm not thinking of it as something that lengthens a BT perk, but just something that gets applied regardless of the perk. Either there is a BT effect, or there isn't. I'm not imagining this as something that would add time or extra hits to a BT user's effect.
Also, not every post needs to be some grand attempt at a mic drop. Just saying.
The grand post, mic drop point is well stated, and not really my intention. I'm just thorough when I answer people and it often comes across that way. We do fundamentally disagree on whether or not tunneling and camping are a problem. I don't see it as one, and would be bored to tears if every game played out the same way. What is worse, if Killers did not have these options, Survivors have the tools to abuse and win game after game in simple mathematical attrition.
My point, which you did not address, is that Survivors themselves already have the ability to deter tunneling, but seem unwilling to do a proper rescue, i.e. one that includes sometime taking those protection hits. Camping likewise has in game solutions which cure the behavior just fine. In short, I believe most in game problems of "agency" require in game solutions. The DEVs can't fix this issue for us because it is something that we have to counter play. Anything they would do would just further tilt the game, and they know it.
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@Shirokinukatsukami said:
It's not rocket science. You use OOO as a detector perk in place of say Spine Chill. You know where the killer is so you know when they're coming and know when to get out of dodge. And more importantly you control when you are peeking at the killer. Basically you go about your business in stealth mode using the usual stealth perks (Iron Will, Urban Evasion, Fixation, Q&Q, Dance With Me, etc.) and are constantly playing with your perspective facing away from the killer. You peek at the killer side very now and then in brief spurts to keep your eyes on him while you are doing gens busting totems or whatever.
It takes some getting used to but it is easy to do and surprisingly effective. Most of the time killer won't see you because he's facing the wrong direction while you are peeking, or in chase, or whatever.
Just because none of the streamers do it and it's not meta doesn't mean it doesn't work. And actually it's good that it's not meta because killers don't expect it or understand it, and so they don't know how to counter it.
I'm not the only one who uses OOO like this over the years I've talked to people here use OOO the same way. It's rare (playing high-level stealth in this game is rare as it is) but there are people who do it. Obviously not you, but others do as well.
Hrm. Let's just say that I'm dubious about this in the extreme. As a Killer I slaughter OoO users quickly and effectively. If they are a Solo it is unfortunate for them because I always assume (and I'm usually right) that they are part of a SWF and there to call out location for their pals. I've never seen anyone effectively use it to "stealth" against me. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you manage to skate this extremely fine line, but to suggest that this is easy or in anyway something a normal Solo can benefit from is misleading at best. How do I know this? I have also spent a lot of time working stealth builds and have attempted to incorporate OoO in that mix. I'm not the best Looper so I prefer stealth. I understand what you are suggesting here, but it requires Superstar levels of skill and discipline to accomplish. More to the point, it doesn't protect you from the normal ways the Killer will locate you, and once they have you in their sights, OoO becomes an anchor tied to your ankle.
I'm not arguing with you just to argue. I just don't see that the new change in any way impairs your ability to stealth. You are going to know if/when that cycle of reveal comes up and it will STILL be affected by which direction you are looking. It just assures there will be far fewer accidental reveals of your location. Moreover, it allows you to "scout" as you call it all sorts of other information to further help you know how to counter reveals the Killer would otherwise you use to spot you. If you are truly playing as you describe, the new OoO is even more effective at employing this tactic, not less.
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@Shirokinukatsukami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920753#Comment_1920753
Why don't you read the reply in the other topic. What is your problem anyway? Did I kill your cat or something?
I'll go look, but I didn't get a notification that you had answered me in the other thread. As far as I know, you hadn't answered my question.
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@Rydog said:
Here are some thoughts on camping and tunneling. Maybe they're really stupid -- and I'm sure people in this discussion will no doubt delight in telling me all the ways that they are stupid -- but this is just my brain coming up with ideas, and I don't necessarily see all the potential holes in them just yet.
Camping:
- Every X total seconds that the killer spends within Y meters of a hooked survivor (with no other survivor nearby), the hooked survivor receives a buff with the effects of Borrowed Time.
- The hooked survivor can receive two charges of this BT buff per hook.
- If the hooked survivor has two charges, and someone unhooks them, one charge transfers to the unhooker.
- The idea is that this guarantees a free escape if the killer lingers, which is a big punishment for the camping behavior.
- Perhaps if gens are finished and/or doors have been started (open or not), this logic stops, because it would keep the killer from securing kills (which is now their only goal).
- Same deal if there are only two survivors left, maybe, because at that point it's a valid strategy to guard the next-to-last hook (as there's only one survivor left to go for a save).
Tunneling:
- If a survivor gets hooked within 30 seconds of being unhooked, they simply experience the same hook state again.
- The idea is to deter the killer from tunneling, at all. At worst, a just-unhooked survivor gets slugged, but teammates have a chance to save them.
- This would obviously have no impact on the last survivor, as it would speed through the phases and kill them.
These ideas come from a default position that these behaviors are largely unsportsmanlike and negative, and that tamping down on them would be a net positive to the game. Note that I am not a "main" of either role, and I cheered on the Mori nerf and Decisive Strike nerf equally. Keys need to get fixed too, and probably stuff like Huntress' iridescent heads.
Discuss.
Here are my thoughts on your thoughts; they are terrible. I'm not delighting in having to explain this to you. In fact, I find it really tedious. However, you took the time to write out your thoughts, so it is only fair that I answer them in a way that I hope will clarify the situation. I'm going to go in the opposite order that you did, and start with what has commonly become known as "Tunneling" although this is NOT the actual definition.
- Your first idea that the Survivor hooked again within 30 seconds of being unhooked simply returns to the same hook state is on its face laughable and easily abused. You must remember that the DEV have attempted to discourage camping and tunneling previously and found that every effort the made was abused in OBSCENE ways by Survivors. Consider that one Survivor could continue to waste a Killer's time by jumping on objectives in his/her face and force the Killer to spend time on them over and over again. If they are hooked, they just start over. If they are slugged they haven't lost anything and can bring other Perks to offset. Consider the potential for No Mither being used in the scenario you created. I can think of at least six other ways to abuse the hell out of this. And where on Earth did you get (30) seconds from? That is a lifetime in this game.
- You second point is this is to deter the Killer from tunneling. This can be done a lot of OTHER ways already. For one thing, the person who unhooked the Survivor can choose to do a SAFE unhook, rather than basically farming the poor sap. They can bring Borrowed Time which makes hitting the just unhooked person not productive at all. And most importantly, something that used to be common, that person can be there to take the protection hit. Today it seems more common to unhook the person for the altruism while beating feet and leaving them to get hooked all over again. That isn't how the game used to be played. When you go in for a risky unhook, the idea is that you are there to trade hooks, making a tactical call for the team. At the very least, you are there to take a protection hook so they can get away. The Killer can also be given other options such as Survivors making NOISE somewhere else to divert them and make the odds of a safe rescue more likely. I could go on and on. There are lots of ways to deter the tunnel, but the most basic ones are for the would-be rescuer to be there to take their lumps.
- Your third point is that your change would not affect the Survivor as it would speed them through their phases. This is nonsensical and at odds with your 1st point. If they start over at their previous stage, they get another whole minute. Or did you mean to indicate that getting hooked again starts their clock exactly where it was when they got unhooked? If so, you need to be very clear about that. The way you have it written they are getting that same Hook state all over again.
Now let's look at your ideas on camping.
- Your first idea doesn't seem outrageous in theory, but in application it is a mess. If anything, it increases the probability that you are going to get camped out of existence. If the Killer knows that your Borrowed Time (if someone even has it to try and unhook you) is going to get lengthened, why not make sure that can't happen by ENSURING you got to the next hook state. Given your views on getting hooked again within (30) seconds, you are making it VITAL to the Killer that they make sure you go to Stage-2 (or sac out) while on the hook. You are creating the inverse of your goal, by incentivizing the Killer to camp for effect.
- The charges thing is needlessly complicated and only further encourages the Killer to make sure you die on the hook.
- The transfer of charges only further ensures the Killer is going to make sure you die on the hook.
- You seem to think that Killers are Bots and don't have agency. You feel they should be punished for making a tactical choice you don't like. If you want, Pac Man is still available online (for free) and you can fight all the Bot Killers you want. This game is about agency, so that it isn't dull. Killers and Survivors both make choices, and every choice has consequences. The moment you used the word "punishment" you were in the wrong, because the DEV have ALREADY stated that camping and tunneling both are legitimate tactics that can be employed by the Killer. You don't punish people for legitimate choices.
- You go on to state that PERHAPS it is ok once the Generators are done (camping that is). How generous of you to decide you might throw the Killers a bone of when they may decide what they are allowed to do.
- Same thing here, you at least realize that camping does have a purpose.
Now, that I have answered your points, allow me to retort.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuUuKWoun2sIf the meaning of the song isn't obvious, you already have the tools to do what you want, as do all the Survivors in the match with you. YOU can make that difference in playing the game. So stop trying to blame the Killer or the game for getting tunneled or camped.
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@VSchmitt said:
Seriously, why all the salt about removing the abuse of a perk? If you're doing any actions to progress the game you're certainly not being tunneled, and if the killer comes right to you after an unhook you'll get to use DS same as before.
The only people complaining about the DS changes are the ones who'd use it to sit in a gen in the killer's face to force a DS or do unsafe unhooks to force it too.
Because the people that were abusing the current iteration are upset they won't get to continue doing so. That is the long and the short of it. All the talk about DS just being there as an anti-tunnel Perk was just cover for those that were using it offensively, i.e. aggro in a SWF. The Perk is not changing in any way that will affect the use that most people CLAIM they are using it for, which means all the people complaining are simply angry because they ARE the people abusing it and who caused this change to come down the pipe.
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@rats00 said:
I legit feel hampered by having it, but need the bp.
Seriously it feels like taking off weighted clothing the moment I can stop wasting a perk slot for bp and can use better tracking perks.
Spies in the shadows has singlehandedly won me more games than bbq has even slightly contributed beyond bp.
I agree. Spies from the Shadows is a very underrated Perk. I was in a game a week or so ago and destroyed the Survivors using it. At the end one of them said, "Spies from the Shadows... really?" To me it seemed like a silly question considering what had just happened to them. Unlike Barbecue & Chili, this Perk is constantly giving you audible notifications and a direction to go. Even when the Survivors are taking the time and trouble (or Perks) to not disturb the birds, it means you have indirectly slowed some of them down. The damn crows are everywhere, and making sure you don't disturb them is much easier said than done.
And Calm Spirit is also, in my opinion, a very underrated Perk.
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@Shirokinukatsukami said:
The way I use it isn't broken. I don't use it the way everyone complains about.
Yeah... like... we are still waiting on you to explain your mystery methodology. Be our Yoda; reveal the secret of OoO for the Solo Survivor.
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@WishIcouldmain said:
I'm getting sick of nerf BBQ people all they say is killer clutch. A perk with 4 counters. I'm sick of people not going into further depth on why they say it is OP. So all you baby survivors who can't do the four easy counters to a perk. Explain to me how every Killer can effectively use the Aura reading don't say anything that includes every killer. Becausese every killer is different don't treat them the same. So go ahead explain why BBQ is apparently OP and super oppressive on every killer. Saw a Nerf BBQ supporter say it's good on Trapper so someone surprise me.
Most Survivors don't appreciate Barbecue & Chili like they should; they should be grateful it exists. Allow me to explain, this Perk exists to reduce camping. That is the long and the short of it. They give the bonus BP to increase the probability that MORE Killers will take it. In short, most Killers camp because they have no place to go. A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. Barbecue & Chili gives them a place to go, more specifically it gives them a place to go that is FURTHER away. The Perk gives the Killer a BP bonus and an incentive to leave the hook. The Perk purposely doesn't show the aura of anyone close, so that the Killer doesn't stick around. Thus, Barbeque & Chili is the biggest helping hand to Survivors one could wish for. If it didn't exist in its current form, rescues would be a lot harder.
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It isn't racism, just your garden variety bigotry.
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@Sluzzy said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920376#Comment_1920376
It doesn't take any skill for a leatherface is stand in the basement and just secure half of his objective. In the case of DS, something that is supposed to be a "perk" is lost when trying to help the team because unhooking someone loses the perk.
Ahem, first your math is off. Leatherface doesn't START with two in the basement. At best, he gets one in the basement first. This means he can then be a Squatter (how I refer to face campers to differentiate them) and secure, at best, 1/4 of this objective. For him to get the second person in the basement, he must either get someone making a rescue attempt, or go forth and hunt. Your argument, that it takes no skill to get to where Leatherface has two in the basement is incorrect on arrival.
To be fair, it doesn't take ANY skill (just commonsense) for the other three Survivors to simply do their Objectives and let the basement squatter sit there with 1/4 of this objective while they knock out all that remains of the generators and escape. Remember, 3+ escapes is considered (generally) as a win for the Survivors. Two escapes is considered a draw, so even if we did get to your odd situation where two are now in the basement and the other two simply finish 100% of the Survivor objectives and leave, Leatherface is a sad panda.
All of that being said and done, it isn't impossible to make the saves in the basement. Is it easy? No. Can it be done? Yes; I've done it many times myself. I'm crazy that way. I just think it is misleading to jump to the position where two are in the basement and then pretend no skill was used to arrive at that point, or go forward. I don't care WHAT Killer you are playing, if you have two in the basement at the same time, that is your game. If you lose it, that is on you. And EVERY damn Killer should camp that basement to a degree if they have half the Survivors down there. Face camping (Squatting) would be counter productive, but they sure as hell should be doing only short range patrols so they can pick up the third Survivor doing a suicide run.
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@lukaace said:
Hey devs. How you all doing? idgaf.
now, I bought laurie for the perk called decisive strike (also anti sweat perk, as I like to call it)
since it's getting nerfed, and nerfed again, I expect the following to happen:
1 you give me my money back
2 you nerf bbq and chilli.
I expect a reply within a week. what's it gonna be?
<laughs> You are one of those people who doesn't read the terms of video games you buy aren't you? You will find, if you take the time, that they reserve the right to make said changes at will and that you agree to that right. Sorry friend but you don't have a leg to stand on. You can, of course, vote with your wallet and leave. Don't let the door hit you on the behind on your way out. :)
If they didn't refund imaginary BP to the countless people who bought Mori on the Blood Web when they made those (much more Draconian) changes, they certainly aren't refunding any real money.
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@Shirokinukatsukami said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/1920227#Comment_1920227
LOL just because you have no idea how to use current OOO in a stealth build doesn't mean it can't be used in a stealth build. OOO is really strong in stealth builds if survivor knows what he's doing. I got to Rank 1 using OOO in Solo Q as a stealth player. It's that good.
What you said makes new OOO better for Scouting, not for Stealthing. Basically it takes the role of Distortion. New OOO is not good for stealth builds because chances are you will become the Obsession, and that means killer will know where you are every 30 seconds. Regardless of range. That makes it very, very, very hard to stealth. If you are not the obsession then it's great. But chances are you will start as obsession, so that means the killer will be hunting you down early and your position will always be revealed until someone takes the obsession off you.
Really? Do tell? :) Explain to us how this works as I tend to kill at least one OoO user every three games or so, tunnel them right out. If there is some magical, stealthy way to prevent the Killer from homing in on you, I'm sure lots of people would like to know how.