Moundshroud
Moundshroud
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I just don't think there is any point is fixating or setting one's hopes too high. There are too many potentials. And I don't think ruling out the movies is a good idea. They did comment about the "stars" being out, and that generally implies movies.
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All this speculation could be moot, because it is possible they simply got the rights to do characters from the Resident Evil "movies" alone. We could be looking at Alice and the Licker.
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It is certainly an effective Perk on the new Wraith, but let's be blunt, it is an effective Perk for any high mobility Killer. I tend to run Calm Spirit so the only sound they get is the explosion of the unhook, but not my scream. Suddenly being Exposed is a reasonable excuse for slipping away like a Ninja as the unhooked takes off for parts unknown (unless the team is better served by a hook trade). In short, I like to unhook and calmly, but quickly walk to medium range cover and hide. The high mobility Killer swings back and if there aren't any red marks to follow, they rarely do an exhaustive search of more than the terrain immediately around the hook.
Obviously, you never heal at the hook if you suddenly become Exposed when you save. :) While I haven't done it myself, I got rescued by a guy who right after unhooking me (and getting Exposed by the Perk) sabotaged the hook and took off for a corner to maximize his chances of wiggling out (and that had a pallet). It seemed to work him, but then again I don't know how reliable that is in practice. For my own part, I just unhook and hide, but do so a just a little further away. Even as fast as the high mobility types are if you are direct and to the point you can reach some kind of cover before they arrive.
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I want to help out but I think my writing pages and pages about Looping would be boring, hard to follow, and not the least bit helpful to you. So I looked these up for you:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+loop+dbdClicking on this link should take you to a list of Youtube videos where Looping is covered in depth by lots of different, capable people. Good luck; this type of research helped me become "competent" as a Looper. You only get good with practice.
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@jamally093 said:
So seriously this is pissing me off how is it that I can have the most brain dead teammates but the most overpowered survivors because I can do super good in a match as survivor but still have a garbage team and do absolute trash as killer but have way to over powered survivors that some how can do everything so correct and have the most garbage hit box where it's literally not there but i have the most trash hit box the size of Jupiter.
I apologize, but I have no idea what you just said. Can you please reread what you wrote and adjust it a bit so I can follow the salient points. I am not trying to be snarky and make fun of your grammar. We all have have lax grammar and typos galore on the internet. I just don't understand this post, and I can't address what I don't understand.
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@BunnySkull said:
Why is Face camping censored in the end game chat its not a swear word its not something bad and i know it wasn't always censored because my brother said that last week in the end game chat
More than likely what the other posters have said is correct; they are doing their best to dissuade "fighting words," i.e. accusations which are likely to lead to toxic exchanges. Me personally, I think they should just disable all end game chat and be done with it. These weird half measures are just that... weird and work wonky.
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@DerpyPlayz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2174161#Comment_2174161
I disagree; there is another status quo that you are disregarding, and I submit is it the one that we are far more likely to achieve. Perfect balance is impossible, something to strive for but one must accept that it is a Utopian pipe dream. What we can achieve is enough variation in Killers, Maps, random spawn, and Perks that you can gain advantages, but different Builds compliment different Players and situations more. For example, when I play Survivor I do not run DS (never cared for it much), Dead Hard (also don't care for it), nor do I run any other Exhaustion Perk regularly.Oddly, you started with a fair point however upon thinking about it I realize what you said didn't make sense. Is it not that this is an "Utopian pipe dream", it is just balance. Your argument is like perfection vs "perfection". Sure, one is possible, and one not humanly possible, however commonly we refer to the humanly variation because to even contemplate a "perfect" or something being "balanced" breaks reason. This is exactly why I specifically stated they're must always be a meta regardless of how much more advantageous, they're objectively WILL be a meta for they're not to be you must break logic.
*Sometimes I take on Deliverance, Self Care, Lucky Break, Saboteur, etc. That fourth slot varies a lot. Looking at my base Build you would think I'm an "immersion" style Player who hides all the time. I'm not; I actually spend my time about 50/50 either doing Generators and safe rescues versus Looping. I don't take the so-called Meta Perks for Looping because they don't do that much. I've found that effective Looping is 90% the Player and while getting a 2nd Chance now and then was nice, it wasn't worth the Perk slot to me. So, I either get away up front or I don't. I rely on my peers to come save me and hopefully return the favors I do them.The "looping perks", I am not sure what you are talking about specifically. I believe Dead Hard, ect and those however. IF that is the case you are just objectively wrong, how would they not help? They outright extend chase more then normal, in many a case even giving you a second life.
The base kit is surely strong enough, so its not that you are using different perks that help you more. Its just you have only proved to yourself that you don't really need perks as a Survivor due to how strong the Survivor base kit is. This is not really news to me. In any case, personal preference plays no role in objective truths.
Some would say that Calm Spirit, Spine Chill, and Iron Will are Meta Perks now. They have certainly improved in popularity. I can remember when people used to ask me why I'm wasting a slot of Calm Spirit. :) They don't ask that anymore so I guess word got around. My point is that I made real trade offs to find the list that suits my particular type of play best. There are people who Loop 100% of the time and for them Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced Landing, and DS are certainly stronger choices. The ideal status quo we want is for there to be Perks that aren't Meta for the game overall, but Meta for specific Players.You've gotten very... philosophical, with this last part.
I've done my absolute best to reply to you with grand consideration as I don't believe you are being dishonest and in doing so I think I understand you. I however do think they're is problems with your reasoning.
Firstly, you are trying to treat meta as a conception subjectively and that hurts to think about, I think you just are either using a VERY loose definition for the word "meta" or you mean to use a different word all together. I would define "Meta", as the strongest X things in a game (in this conversation), that lead to the common goal of winning and/or a outcome that is most preferable to a goal similar. I find this is a easy way determining if something is objectively meta or not.
For example, in Chess they're are objectively "meta" moves. They can be the difference between a pawn, or a queen but in any case, these moves typically end up with the computer winning 100% of the time vs even the best humans. Moves get so accurate that 0.X material gain is a significant change in a game where whole values are the tool for calculation in any gave situation in which you are winning or losing.
Therefore if you use a perk like Dead Hard, you objectively must be using a "meta" perk as if you are chased or not you main goal is Gens and you can only do them if you are not downed/killed. So with that logic regardless of play, an extra life would help much more to this goal then something like Calm spirit that allows mind games because Calm Sprit regardless of playstyle does not directly contribute to chase and therefore is not as good as Deadhard.
You can apply this reasoning to literally anything in the anything, every perk in a game, the objective best way to even do small tasks like picking something off the floor. Sure, a old man using a stick might be much easier for him to pick up something on the floor, and you can consider that his personal "meta" for picking things off the floor, however it is not THE meta way to pick up things if we assume it takes him 5 seconds to do that but a human without any handicap, it would take 3 seconds without a stick. I hope that makes you see what I mean?
They're always must be a objective goal if we can agree on the subjective ruleset(s)/wanted outcomes.
And that is where we will have to agree to disagree. I don't think there is an objective goal to Dead by Daylight. It is a PvP game with large selection of Perks for both roles (Killer and Survivor), maps with a large amount of variation both within and without, and Killers whose powers set them apart. My understanding of "Meta" is something outside the immersion of the game, i.e. what Players (of both roles) THINK are the best builds. It is a type of logic that breaks the fourth wall. It is also born in no small part of the "hive mind," perhaps more so than actual application and efficiency. In other words, perception becomes reality when it comes to what the so-called community think is "Meta."
My argument probably does tend to get a bit more philosophical than applied science, but what I'm suggesting is the goal (and current trend) is for all Perks to have some innate value, and that the DEV would prefer that none of them are so potent as to be clearly Meta. Does that make sense? They want diversity, and for more Perks to be used. Thus, if one Perk shows up in their statistics as being used to the exclusion of all others, they take nerfing or reworking it into consideration. In other words, what is the point of having all these different Perks if only a few get used? The goal is to make it so that they all have some value and that more (if not all of them) do get used.
But I digress; let's get back to that objective goal issue. There are a lot of goals available and officially there are no win conditions to this game. That makes it hard to nail down an objective goal, and I suspect they did that on purpose too. Ostensibly Survivors want to survive and Killers want to kill, but achieving those mutually exclusive goals depends a great deal on the strengths and weaknesses of individual Players and the random elements (maps, spawns, etc.) that apply. Some people are are great Loopers, not just because they practice (although that is certainly key) but because they have a knack for it. Some people are better at evasion, being immersed and hard to find. The list is fairly exhaustive because different people play for different reasons too. Are they trying to earn Blood Points, Pips, or just do the basic kill or escape? Dead by Daylight isn't just spaghetti code, it is spaghetti objectives.
What I'm stating is that the "Meta" is a delusion, group think run amok. Certain Perks, play styles, tactics, strategies, builds, etc. become commonplace but it doesn't mean they are actually the strongest. It could simply be that people bought into what others were selling, and played specific things more. More play means more practice. More practice means better results. The feedback loop kicks in and more people say, "you need to take this!" I don't buy into all that; I never have. I was told that Myers isn't competitive in the Red Ranks, and yet I play him almost exclusively and I do just fine there. I was told Spooky Myers (also called Jump Scare) isn't functional outside of the indoor maps, particularly at the Red Ranks, but I find I can make him work. I've been told I have to play Spirit or Nurse, yadda... yadda... yadda... and yet I have found that to not be the case. I don't believe I'm exceptional or have any more natural talent than anyone else. To the contrary, I'm just competitive and make my own way. Do you see my point?
I've played against SWF with the Meta Builds and all the supposed advantages and killed them to a man. I've played against Red Rank Solos with off the wall builds where every single one of them escaped. When that happens it is like getting kicked in the groin, hard. Pride is more tender than the family jewels in my case. What I'm saying is the goal should be for individual Players to build for their individual strengths and personal style. No Perk should be so important that people feel it is an auto-include simply because they are playing Dead by Daylight. They should be choosing them because those Perks are auto-include based on their own ability. I think biodiversity in nature is good, and I think diversity in builds is good for the game. Unlike a lot of people, I like maps that make people play against type, that "The Game" is crazy full of pallets but doesn't have many vaults. I like that Hawkins doesn't have many safe pallets but is chock full of vaults and non-standard options to gain and lose elevation. I love the new Corn Fields because the massive amount of terrain blocking LOS can't be fought the same way. These are good things because they are BAD for the very notion of Meta.
We aren't playing Chess. We shouldn't want to be playing Chess when we come here. I'm not looking for balance in so much as I'm looking for a challenge. The more structured the game, the more Meta it becomes. That is why Chess can be broken down into specific openings and gambits and at a certain point is just a ritual dance. It becomes too reliable, too predictable, and boring. So to me, the more Meta things appear to get, the sicker the game is becoming. The less predictable the builds and choices, the healthier the game.
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@DerpyPlayz said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2173787#Comment_2173787
Fair but this causes issues.
All meta is (at least commonly) are the things in games, be it perks, or killers, or anything that is a core mechanism in games (least with this loose definition) that are much better then then most other perks, ect of its kind.
So if there was not "meta", then the game would be completely balanced to such a degree that nothing will give any advantage.
This of course will never happen, even if we rework every thing, there will always be a "meta", just instead you will have only certain things meta that weren't before. They're always MUST be an objective "meta" in a game. If they're isn't then it must defy logic, because then the game would need to be so perfectly balanced to the point of everything is not better then anything else.
I disagree; there is another status quo that you are disregarding, and I submit is it the one that we are far more likely to achieve. Perfect balance is impossible, something to strive for but one must accept that it is a Utopian pipe dream. What we can achieve is enough variation in Killers, Maps, random spawn, and Perks that you can gain advantages, but different Builds compliment different Players and situations more. For example, when I play Survivor I do not run DS (never cared for it much), Dead Hard (also don't care for it), nor do I run any other Exhaustion Perk regularly.
My most common Survivor Build is:
Calm Spirit, Spine Chill, Iron Will, and a Wildcard (whatever Perk I think compliments the job I mean to take on in the group).
*Sometimes I take on Deliverance, Self Care, Lucky Break, Saboteur, etc. That fourth slot varies a lot. Looking at my base Build you would think I'm an "immersion" style Player who hides all the time. I'm not; I actually spend my time about 50/50 either doing Generators and safe rescues versus Looping. I don't take the so-called Meta Perks for Looping because they don't do that much. I've found that effective Looping is 90% the Player and while getting a 2nd Chance now and then was nice, it wasn't worth the Perk slot to me. So, I either get away up front or I don't. I rely on my peers to come save me and hopefully return the favors I do them.
Some would say that Calm Spirit, Spine Chill, and Iron Will are Meta Perks now. They have certainly improved in popularity. I can remember when people used to ask me why I'm wasting a slot of Calm Spirit. :) They don't ask that anymore so I guess word got around. My point is that I made real trade offs to find the list that suits my particular type of play best. There are people who Loop 100% of the time and for them Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, Lithe, Balanced Landing, and DS are certainly stronger choices. The ideal status quo we want is for there to be Perks that aren't Meta for the game overall, but Meta for specific Players.
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@TM_The_Shape said:
got lots of drama going on, apparently, between killer and surv mains...
some of you think the game is killer sided
some think its survivor sided
some just think both sides need work...
personally i think in general the game is survivor sided, the exception to this is with newer players, where killer usually has an easier time.
but what's everyone elses opinions? why do some of you think one side is heavily favored by devs over another?
why the drama? work together, make the game better for everyone, not just you, no?
The whole issue is contrived, a false dichotomy pushed forward by a minority of Players that don't play both sides. Because of their narrow field of vision, they look at it all as "us versus them." The truth is most Players play both roles from time to time, some favoring one or the other but almost all dabbling. Many do both equally. It is largely best to ignore anyone spouting the nonsense of favoritism and sour grapes as it demonstrates how little they understand the game and how self centered their motives actually are in regards to the topic.
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@beached said:
It goes without saying that old DS was simply unhealthy for the game. It was a pure minute of invincibility from being hooked no matter what you did. There is not a doubt in my mind or anybody else's (hopefully) that old DS was the most meta perk in the game.
Earlier today I got called a meta survivor for using DS and I was running it with WGLF, we'll make it, and lithe. I could see being called a meta survivor if I had dead hard, iron will, DS, and unbreakable but that's just not the case. Even in solo queue I don't run builds like that.
At the end of the day can DS even be considered meta anymore? In my eyes it is 60 seconds of stun protection granted that you're legitimately being tunneled by the killer. If not wanting to have a match where you get insta tunneled out and have no fun is meta, than I take no shame in being a meta survivor while running we'll make it and lithe.
I'll go you one further, should we care if it (or any) Perk is Meta. Ideally no Perk should be so good that it is Meta. That is the goal we should be striving to achieve. If DS is no longer so-called, Meta, I say good. :)
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2171556#Comment_2171556
For the record, I've NEVER been against having the hook time extended, I just think it should be earned somehow by the person on it or the Survivors around (like that Steve Perk). I don't think it should have anything to do with how close the Killer is in proximity to the hook as that goes back to trying punishments (which were always abused).
The issue I have with a generalised hookstate slowdown is that it would make things worse for killers that don't camp, as survivors are under less pressure to interrupt their progress on objectives to go for an unhook. It'd be a considerable nerf to all killers when only campers are an issue.
Honey-potting or rescue-baiting for example would be far less effective if survivors just aren't pressured into actually going for a rescue. I'd really rather have it affect specifically campers only.
Therein lies the rub, if you target too specifically it gets abused by the Survivors. It has happened every time in every iteration. Camping is a valid tactic and not all Killers are created equal. Some have to camp, to some degree (although not face camp) to equalize with say a Spirit other upper end types. Rules to be fair have to be global, and hence why I say if there is going to be something that extends time on the hook the Survivors must be earning it.
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@burt0r said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2172493#Comment_2172493
Damn you sound much like a lawyer here in this discussion rambling on fixated on his point about the mori while it was 1 point on a list of 5.
If he hadn't "accidently" put moris in this listing (as they are the effect of an offering, perk or killer aka a built in game mechanic in contrast to the other 4 points being tactics and therefore players choice/agency) you would have absolutely no ground in this discussion anymore. But you are milking this point for all it's worth.
To your question about abuse of making camping completely unviable with your suggestions. Let me start by reminding that when survivor learned that they could effectively destroy hooks (and trappers traps) permanently, full Sabo builds became meta. A time which also made killer aware of the potential of slugging and especially 4 men slugging.
So for my scenario why your proposal might lead to abuse has to use a 4 men swf at first since coordination among survivor is possible but not the norm. One survivor is hooked and a second is designated to be on generator at all times to progress the game. The other two stay in viewing distance to the hook and hover in the area so the killer is aware of both their presence. The survivor have all the time in the world here to wait while the 4th person can finish the, in worst case, 2 gens (often 3 gens get done by the time the first survivor ends up on the hook in average games) and prep a gate if not both to 99 (if the killer would stick to hardcore camping which in itself is really undesirable). The only option here for the killer to break this stalemate is to let himself be lured away knowing that either a save will happen when they leave or if they return the other survivor will simply avoid a chase and the timer will stop once again. Every attempt to defend their kill will stall the game and the survivor have no pressure in any form and can take their time to try saving their teammates. This takes any form of choice from the killer and puts it all in the hands of the 4 survivor.
Now you might say not everyone plays in an swf but i played 15 games as killer last Saturday evening (region Eu, playtime 8pm till 1 am, on PC, cross play enabled) and 12 of them where against atleast 3 men swf (checked their profiles but I don't dodge for anything and actively avoid applying any of the tactics discussed here), one was a complete console lobby, one was two 2 men and only one with no indication of any premades. This just to the point of the frequency of swf, i lost many but also stomped some thanks to the matchmaking being all over the place.
My point being that swf will show that my scenario will be effective and just like permanent Sabo will slowly but surely be adapted by the masses.
Lastly I wont be able to answer anything until later today since I will be on the road and help my parents renovate, so maybe in 12 hours or something.
Thank you for commenting on the potentials for abuse and chiming in. His steadfast refusal to budge and continuing to pretend he hadn't been answered was starting to make me think I'd gone insane.
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@wxnickxw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2172484#Comment_2172484
Still not gonna answer after all that, shame I was looking forward to playing with you, I really didn't expect you to be do adverse to just giving an honest answer especially after you demanded a match from me.
Also I'm not sure what you want when you say to prove my assertions about camping,
If youve forgotten why I think camping should be removed I told you as clearly as I could that camping should go because it's boring. My evidence go support that is me feeling bored when I was camped. I believe you will find similar feelings of boredom from others on this forum if you need more than one person to tell you it's boring.
Anyway I await my answer
But in the interest of getting back to your fuzzy ideas, let's talk about your statement there. You feel because you are bored by camping the rules should change. Your so-called support is that you assert that other people on this forum are probably bored of it too. While I can certainly point you to and quote countless people saying that they don't find camping boring, that is largely nothing but hearsay, and just opinions. Opinions are not evidence. Changing the rules of the game and altering game balance is done for important reasons, and neither you nor I as individuals are important. The game over all, continues to thrive as the DEV have it working right now. That is evidence that they are doing something right, also know as the axiom, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." Camping is boring to you (and I can quote you multiple times) because you are terrible at dealing with it. Myself (and some others) offered to help you but you don't honestly seem interested in how to deal with camping. You don't even seem that interested in playing the game. You appear to take more pleasure in complaining about the game than playing it. It seems rather perverse. You indicated it was getting late so you couldn't play that match until this weekend. Odd, you are still here and posting? If you have time to do that, I'm sure we could EASILY have finished a single match. Hell, at this point we could have done ten. How do you explain that? You can't play the match because its late, but you can keep wriggling on that hook here? That is kind of contradictory don't you think?
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@wxnickxw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2172484#Comment_2172484
Still not gonna answer after all that, shame I was looking forward to playing with you, I really didn't expect you to be do adverse to just giving an honest answer especially after you demanded a match from me.
Also I'm not sure what you want when you say to prove my assertions about camping,
If youve forgotten why I think camping should be removed I told you as clearly as I could that camping should go because it's boring. My evidence go support that is me feeling bored when I was camped. I believe you will find similar feelings of boredom from others on this forum if you need more than one person to tell you it's boring.
Anyway I await my answer
You already got your answer. I'm still waiting for you to answer ANY of the questions that were put to you by myself and several others. I'm still waiting for you to support any of your assertions with actual evidence. And we are all still waiting for you to put your money where your mouth is and come get in that game we talked about. Again, everyone reading this knows you are whining, winging and doing everything you can to avoid playing that match. You know you can't prove your points. You aren't even able to support them verbally, much less in an actual game. Coward. I'm perfectly comfortable pointing people back to our conversations. In fact, I think to keep things cleaner I'm going to start a new thread where I compile all our exchanges in chronological order and just keep updating it as we discuss your fuzzy ideas in any new threads. That way people don't have to look or sift. I'm perfectly comfortable with that because I know how our exchanges make you look. You just keep wriggling on that hook, or digging that hole deeper for yourself (if you prefer that metaphor). You can end this at any time. Support you assertions, prove them in a match, or cry off by ceasing your games. Do any of these three things and I'll lose interest in you. But keep going, and I keep going.
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@wxnickxw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2172477#Comment_2172477
Sorry did you just say I brought up moris? No no no that was all you right there in your quite you mention them as this incredibly important part of the game, not me.
You have flipped your position so hard that in your mind I am the one brining up your original points, that's pretty messed up.
I notice you are once again trying to change the discussion to something else, for someone who supposedly gives answers you seem to spend a long time trying to drag the conversation away from anything close to am answer. You say you've Nswerednot multiple times yet here we are still waiting for a simple Straitforward answer. I keep having to bring this back to my question try as you might to avoid it, if your having trouble try making 2 posts. One full of all the rambling on and on about how good you are at answering questions or how bad I am for responding to the things you said and the second post to just type in either
"I no longer believe what i first posted about moris they are not important to player agench" or
"I no longer belive my later posts about moris becuase they are so important that without them killers are bots"
You can vary it up of coarse but since you seem to have so much trouble with a strait answer I thought I'd help you out. You mentioned you were a writer, you wouldn't happen to write for politicians would you, cause that would explain the evasivness on answering in a simple honest manner
I live in Maine. I write fiction, short stories and novels. The furthest I delve into the political realm is the odd letter to an editor. Have it your way; you better get used to seeing a lot of me because you and I will be having lots of conversations about YOU and your posts and your ideas. You are my new hobby horse. And at some point, you are going to have to prove your assertions about camping. I've given you plenty of opportunities. I even gave you all the advantages possible to be fair. You just keep wriggling on that hook, because the longer you do it the more ridiculous you look.
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@wxnickxw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2172464#Comment_2172464
OK I'll admit the full if it was a bit much ill try and be more fair. As for the context around the rest of the discussion that came layer that is why I'm asking you to clarify becuase you do go on to do an180 and claim moris aren't that important.
So I'll try and ask my question in a way that doesn't force you to admit you were full of it (at the time I was under the impression you didn't really believe what you were saying you were just making whatever argument you could becuase you just wanted to justify camping as a great thing)
So I'll try and rephrase my question.
you said that moris were important and that killers are nothing more than chase engines without them. You also said later that moris were not that important.
Do you no longer believe what you first posted or do you no longer belive your later post where you said that moris are not important
It's getting late and you've taken this long and still not answered so I'm guessing that we will have to play on the weekend , assuming you do eventually answer my question that is
You have been answered multiple times. Our discussion was about camping and the rules you want put in place to discourage or stop it. Your weird rhetorical attempts to take us further and further away from that is an evasion. What has the Mori to do with our specific discussion about camping? It is simply something you latched on to because you lost this argument back on May 4th and have been unwilling to cede the point. You are still stalling and everyone reading this can see it. I stated that removing Player Agency reduces Killers to being chase engines and the Mori is part of a long list of things there. I've already, tonight, answered your question again and again. You are a coward, and you know what, every single time you post in any thread I notice, I'm going to be there to gut anything you state and push people back to this thread. I want you to understand that I'm not going away. You have played games with me and wasted my time. Like Mr. Hand in Fast Times at Ridgemont High, I'm going to take my pound of flesh out of you. Your posts are poorly written, your ideas are fuzzy, and you don't support them. Every single time you post anything poorly I'm going to be there and I'm going to spend this much time tearing it apart, without exception. And I'm always going to refer back to this exchange too so people come and look at you winge and wriggle like a worm on a hook. So you tell me, are your little games worth it? Because clearly you aren't really interested in getting help with your camping problem. If you were, you would simply ask how to deal with it.
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@Nos37 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2172461#Comment_2172461
I didn't say BBQ is making the sky fall. I said it can make the sky fall
Let's not split hairs here; you imply it by the context. The post I answered made Barbeque & Chili sound like this horrible, abused Perk. :) If you didn't mean to say it was making the sky fall, but merely that it "could" I'm suggesting you overshot your mark. But like I said, I agree that your suggestion has merit. You should make it in its own thread so it has a chance of being seen rather than ignored in this endless thread which I doubt they even follow anymore. :)
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@wxnickxw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2172453#Comment_2172453
No I understand it's a list but you very clearly state that without the 5 things listed killers woukd be effective reduced to bots.
Since you said
Without the option to choose to Camp, Tunnel, Slug, Herd, and/or Mori, Killers are nothing more than chase engines
It's very clear your point was that each of those are very important becuas without any of them killers are "nothing more than chase engines"
Later on you did say moris weren't important but the problem was you have this tendency to not give direct answers or seemingly change your opinion on things every so often. So I wanted and still want a strait answer.
Where I quoted was your point about how very important moris were (withoit them your nothing but a bot right)
so we're you full of it when you made that point? Or were you full of it later when you said moris weren't that important?
No, I do give answers, and they are quite clear. I just don't talk down to you. The fact that you are having difficulty with context, isn't me being evasive. I don't like having to talk to people like they are still in Middle School. I think that is an insulting way to have a discussion. Again, you are playing GAMES here. You are ignoring the entire context of our conversation and you are ignoring the post I just made with three clear statements. On top of that you are trying to ask a loaded question, i.e. was I "full of it" when I said this or when I said that? :) Neither. I haven't been full of it in any statement I've made to you. I'm direct, and I'm honest. I believe in ethics which is why your little games are annoying. I wasn't attempting to deceive you (which full of it implies) and I clarified the position so there could be no doubt. Are we doing this or not? Do you plan on stalling again?
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@Nos37 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2172367#Comment_2172367
The killer will still move away from the hook with location bubbles. They just won't get the luxury of cross-map sniping with Huntress, or cross-map homing with Oni, Billy, and Nurse. They won't get to see who's injured. They won't get to see if the survivors are healing, repairing, cleansing, etc.
BBQ gives too much info
Hrm. I can't say I automatically disagree. I'll cede the point, I'm not a hypocrite, that bubbles would do the same job as the flash of auras. I think you are engaging in a bit of hyperbole with this idea that it is being used to tunnel people out and select injured over uninjured. I play Killer at the highest level and I've never used it that way. :) I'm not saying there might not be people that do, but I am saying that I doubt it is common enough to warrant the intensity of your reaction.
Even so, I think a Feedback thread discussion started to suggest that slight change isn't a bad idea. It in no way would lessen the positive impact of Barbeque & Chili so I wouldn't have a problem with it. If it does prevent the rare abuse, all the better. I do think, however, that hyperbole reactions do more to harm someone's arguments than help them. When you state something is causing the sky to fall, when it is not, they will tune out the rest of what you say even when it might be good. In your case, I think you have a solid suggestion. I just think the delivery needs work.
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@wxnickxw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2163520#Comment_2163520
Oops there we go sorry about the delay
And you reread that post and still don't understand it? That is a LIST of all the different things Killers can do. I also have another post as part of our conversation I notice that you didn't quote, where I specifically list the BIG THREE things which cannot be removed, i.e. Camping, Tunneling, and Slugging. That one is one of the FOUR times I answer your question as to which things I believe cannot be removed to maintain Player Agency. Shall I post it? As well as the other three? It bothers me that you can't draw context. If I state these THREE things are the ones that cannot be removed, it by default states that the others can.
Be that as it may, I'll dumb down our conversation and make it clearer for you.
- Yes I believe removing the Mori from the game (which they did not do btw) would reduce Player Agency.
- No, I don't believe it is AS IMPORTANT as trying to remove tactics. The Mori is an Offering or Add-on in most cases.
- I'm not sure why you latched on to the Mori as your weird defense in our discussion about CAMPING.
I would also point out that Pyramid Head can Mori without an Offering. Myers can Mori with Add-on(s). Any Killer can Mori with certain Perks. Those are builds and were covered in a DIFFERENT part of our discussion. I believe that removing Player Agency is bad for the game. I SPECIFICALLY (in context of our entire conversation) note that it is Camping, Tunneling, and Slugging that are the key Player Agency choices of a Killer. Does that answer your question? Please TELL ME you can follow this.
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@Fuddly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2172389#Comment_2172389
To each their own. You will have an unfun match on it eventually.
I never have an unfun game on any map. Fun comes from us, not the the game. It is all mindset and love of a challenge. I play on Hawkins all the time.
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@wxnickxw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2172424#Comment_2172424
OK I'll go find the part where you said that if you removed either camping tunneling slugging herding or moris then killers were glorified Bots. I think you called them chase engines at one point. And yah I think more than one question was asked but that was the one I said I wanted answered before I would play you.
Even now you are stalling. You are pretending not to understand the context of our discussion to find an excuse, any however flimsy to pretend that you didn't get your question answered. The entire context of our discussion is about Player Agency and it covers the difference between tactics and gear/add-on(s)/offerings. It is specific that tactics are all Player Agency and that it is those that cannot be removed. As such, I didn't care a bit about the Mori being changed because it was NEVER a tactic. It was an offering.
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@wxnickxw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2172411#Comment_2172411
Haha no you didn't here was my question
Give me a strait answer, we're you full of it when you said moris were supper important to Player agency or were you full of it when you said that moris don't matter at all.
It was a simple question you danced around but never answered directly. Here's your chance again
Should be easy enough I'm sure you won't need more than 20 characters
That wasn't the only question you asked, nor does that actually make any sense grammatically. I stated what options Killers have, i.e. their primary choices. And I went on to talk about Player Agency and the value of it. I never stated that the Mori was "super" important to anything. It was simply listed among all the options, Camping, Tunneling, Slugging, Herding, and even the Mori. Desperate to try and change the subject, you suddenly started fixating on the Mori. Please give me a link to the quote where I stated the Mori, specifically, is super important. You are just playing games again to try and avoid the fact that you look like a fool in our entire exchange. You are putting words in my mouth and then telling me I have to tell you which one I was serious about. Again, why don't we get an impartial person (like Yords) to read our exchanges and see if HE can follow them where you clearly were not able? The Mori, by the way, was an Offering which I SPECIFICALLY talked about as being different from tactics. I stated clearly many times that tactics and offerings are apples and oranges.
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@wxnickxw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2172402#Comment_2172402
I told you when I say I would do something I would. I told you I would play after you answered my question. You never answered me though so whenever your ready answer away
I'm still hoping to play woth you becuse any method you can show me to reduce camping is a win win for me
Your question got answered four times. I counted and then had someone else count too to make sure I hadn't gone insane. Why don't we point Yords here to our exchange and let him be the impartial judge of whether your questions were answered. If so, we play now and I continue your education.
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@Yords said:
Camping doesn't happen enough and losing pips doesn't matter since rank means pretty much nothing.
And just how do you fix camping exactly?
This guy is basically a Sluzzy. He asks question after question playing rhetorical tricks and ignores your answers (just straight up playing dumb) and just asks them again. I cornered him on it the other night and he finally broke down and said he would play a match to prove his weird points. He didn't show up. :) Now he is once again pretending not to have gotten answers to his questions.
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@wxnickxw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2172382#Comment_2172382
Hey I remember you, you were going to answer my question and then play me. Then you refused to do so.
You seem to be missing the point I was making, I was proposing a way to remove camping if they wanted. I took issue with the mention of abuse because it seems when killers mention the abuse the abuse they are referring to is just that it stops killers from camping and nothing else.
Again I'm not saying you can't camp as the game is now, we all know the devs haven't pulled it out. And I'm not saying you can't put forth arguments why camping should stay in, all I'm saying is that if you are going to claim the solution I propose is open for abuse then provide examples of abuse that isn't just that it stops killers from camping in some situation because the stated goal of the proposal is to remove camping as a viable option completely.
I am looking for actual abuses becuse if someone presents them I would try and tweak my proposal (already did hence the chase part) but just claiming it was abusive that killers couldn't camp doesnt really make sense becuase again the whole point was to remove camping.
Its those unintended consequences I'm genuinely looking for and so I keep trying to find them when someone mentions abuse but it's been a while since someone brought up a legit one.
Edit if you've got one I'm all ears by the way
Actually, you didn't show up. I waited around for you the next night (as did my friends) and you didn't return. You didn't post. You hid like a coward after saying you were going to play and show us what you are working with. I assumed you had cried off and I decided to be nice and let it drop. But since you are ready now, shall we play a game?
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@Fuddly said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2172386#Comment_2172386
I mean yeah, it does. I just think they half assed the map.
You would think that, but it is the opposite. More time and thought went into creating that map than many others. The goal was to create a map that would:
- Reflect the look and feel of the labs from the show Stranger Things.
- Play entirely different than the maps already in rotation.
- Implement a new type of heights structure besides just hills.
They didn't half ass it, they gave it a crazy amount of thought and and hammered statistics to decide about the pallets. The DEV do have a formula (and you can reverse engineer it by studying certain variables in the maps) for deciding pallets, vaults, drops, etc. When they start with a non-standard map they make the call of what type of terrain will dominate it. They put those in first, and then they follow their general building rules to fill in the rest as the formula will allow. Thus when they did The Game they wanted lots of pallets to fit in with the warehouse theme. They filled in their pallet spawns first which told them the min and maxi pallets (safe, unsafe, god) and then knew how many vaults and/or drops, etc. they had room for using their rules. The same happened earlier at Hawkins. They had the idea for those catwalks which were going to be vaults and drops. Think about all the windows/vaults spread out through Hawkins (there are a metric ton of them). Heck they even put in a rolling set of stairs near the ugly room which throws a casual vault in at the top. After putting all those in and counting up the total loops (that many people don't understand) the room for safe pallets was tiny. :) I don't see this as a bad thing. Different maps just cause us to adapt and make sure we play to the strengths of the given one we pull.
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@Fuddly said:
I see Hawkins Lab as being the worst map in Dead by Daylight. It seems unfun for both killer and survivor but fairly killer sided seeing as how almost every pallet is unsafe. The portal room is cool and all but it is kind of a let down. I think there should be a rework down the line but the devs haven't said anything about doing so. So idk : /
I rather like Hawkins both as a Killer and a Survivor. The trick to looping the Killer on Hawkins is to use the up and down stairs and catwalks inside the various rooms. There are are fewer safe pallets because there are so many long loops and vaults you can utilize effectively. However, many Survivors don't think about it in those terms and are used to just running on one floor at a time. Let me stress, Hawkins can work very well for Survivor, but ONLY if you maximize those loops and vaults. Think about it as the opposite of The Game which has very few vaults and effective loops but LOTS of pallets. Does that make sense?
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@wxnickxw said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2172327#Comment_2172327
Yah thats cool the proposal to stop camping was to stop hook timer except in chase when killer nearby
You can say its not something that should be implemented because you like camping. And that part about camping being Part of the game, well Obviously campiny is currently part of the game. the whole point of what I was talking about was how to change the game to remove camping as a viable option. Becuase it certainly is a good killer strat as is.
Now if the devs don't want to remove camping then they shouldn't implement what I'm talking about.
That being said don't say that the survivors could abuse it if you can't actually think of a way they could do so. Just say how much you love camping and don't want anuthjng implemented that would stop camping because it would take away your current strategy or whatever other justification you want. Becuase again this isn't about if camping should be removed or not it's about how it could be removed (if the devs wanted to)
Thirsty for more are you? :) Your suggestions aren't revolutionary or new. All sorts of variations of playing with the timer were tested, and failed those tests (mostly due to Survivor abuse). There is the Perk: Camaraderie which came out of all of that indirectly when the Stranger Things DLC dropped. It gives SURVIVORS the option to give more time on the hook with a little effort. There is no such thing as a free lunch, you should stop asking for one.
Let me remind you, since you seem to have ALREADY forgotten what many people have already told you. The DEV have already weighed in on this subject many times. They have stated that Camping, Tunneling, and Slugging are valid, legal tactics and they have no plans to further constrain Player agency in this context. But let's talk about you and your "one note" posts for a bit shall we? Why to you continuously forget or purposely ignore what others have already pointed out to you? Is it like that movie Memento, do you leave one thread and suddenly have no memory of what you were schooled on (and how) from the previous?
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@Nos37 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2167040#Comment_2167040
Barbecue & Chili just makes it stupid simple to (indirectly) tunnel two survivors out of the game by reading auras, seeing who's injured, and then focusing them; bouncing back and forth until two survivors are out of the game. The aura reading either needs to be replaced with location bubbles, or show gen progress auras instead. If not, then remove the extra Bloodpoints bonus and put it into a new/different perk. Why should killers be handed such strong intel on a platter (just for playing the game) AND get bonus points on top of it?? Meanwhile, We're Gonna Live Forever requires suicidng into the killer, so you either die with many stacks and little points or with no stacks and many points (i.e. no substantial gain/difference in points, unlike BBQ killers). Pathetic
It suffices to say that our experiences with this Perk are very different. Moreover, the overall performance of this Perk has actually decreased camping by a significant degree. Barbeque & Chili only shows the aura of Survivors far off, with more than enough time to be gone from the area by the time the Killer arrives. Moreover, there is plenty of counter play to the Perk if you "choose" to hide from it. I rarely do as I want the Killer moving away from the hook, i.e. me doing my part for the team and helping achieve a safe rescue. The DEV understand the value and the behavior they want to encourage which is exactly why they throw that BP bonus on top. As to WGLF, that is an entirely different topic and if you want to complain about that it probably requires its own thread. Shoehorning it into this discussion in this way is kind of desperate.
I suspect you and I will have to agree to disagree on Barbeque & Chili which is considered by most to be extremely successful Perk and does a lot of good for both Killers and Survivors. :)
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@MeltingPenguins said:
Ask yourself the question:
Why do you trust so little in your skills with a killer that you go after a just unhooked injured survivor instead of the unhooker or anyone else?
Why would I have to ask myself a question like that? There isn't that much thought, for me at least, that goes into who I "go after." Nine times out of ten I only see a single target in front of me. It isn't my fault that Survivors regularly:
- Do an unsafe rescue and put the person being unhooked between me and the unhooker.
- Vanish like Ninja the second they unhook so when I come around the corner I see only one target.
- The person I most recently hooked is simply the next person I run into on the other side of the map.
The list goes on an on, but those are the big three. I take whomever is closest to me, period. On rare occasion I might specifically choose one target or another depending on how the match is going. This is more likely to happen if I've been being NICE and giving people as many hooks as possible. Situations where the Killer is being nice often result in nobody being dead as you approach the EGC and the Killer starts to have to make tougher choices. :) If I'm just playing and not worrying about anything other than the game itself, it is going to be luck or entirely up to the Survivors who get the so-called "fickle finger of fate."
Why don't you ask yourself this question, "Why am I such a busybody that I wasted everyone's time by making a passive aggressive post to try and grief/shame people into what I consider 'right think' rather than worrying about my own play, which is the only thing that is really any of my own business?" Seriously, do you trust your own skill so little that you have to try and influence matches with such crude, juvenile (Mean Girls) manipulations? :)
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Or you could not worry about it and just take out the Totems as a precaution. That way you are covered either way and earn some extra BP to boot. :)
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@bluedusef said:
8-9 games only two of them were not these three combo of perks. 1 oni player who used only surge, and the other only used pop and ruin in combo.
Yup, time to play killer and ignore solo queue yep.
Good.... we are suffering for Killers. :)
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@MidnightStalk said:
This map is broken and unbalanced for both roles. It’s insanely huge for no ######### reason, and the layout is literally disgusting. Nobody has fun on it.
Speak for yourself; I love all the swamp maps. And more to the point if it is "unbalanced" for BOTH roles it is, by default, balanced for both. ;) In short, if it sucks for both of them, then it is fair to both of them.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSrv-yE6Agk@justbecause said:
It's part of game however doesn't make it right or fair it's basically not giving a person option to make a move unless they run ds all the time just like killers complain about dead hard or old ds as much will survivors complain about tunelling and camping both sides complains are part of game however it doesn't mean tunelling is fine or getting a distance u didn't deserve is fine
Here you go!
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2171435#Comment_2171435
Just... Just read Moundshroud's discussion with me, since you're now re-treading what they and I already discussed.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2171460#Comment_2171460
We will have to agree to disagree about camping being bad for game play. I would, politely, suggest that you don't know enough about it to make that assumption. Anyone can squat at a hook, but experienced Killers are using a wide variety of camping and honey-potting tactics to not only get downs, but also to pressure generators and gather information. Camping isn't cut and dried, it is a skillset which actually does require finesse to use properly. I'm going to be blunt; you are new and you aren't well-rounded. That isn't a crime; we all start that way. But it does color your viewpoints and blinds you with bias.
I'm not talking about honey-potting tactics, or baiting survivors to go in for the rescue and then intercepting them. I'm talking about killers staring the hook down, or seeking out the nearest hill and just surveying the area to make unhooks as impossible as they can. I'm talking about basement bubba, or a nurse that spends 30+ seconds just circling within 10 meters of the hook in plain sight.
Camping forces different kinds of play and tactics from both Killers AND Survivors. Some of the most exciting play, and satisfying is making that rescue from a camping Killer. It happens every day, probably five or six times in just the time you read this post. I've done it, and had it done to me. Having to tackle the additional obstacles of a tough rescue on top of getting Generators powered, and totems cleansed ups the ante. You seem to only look at it as a negative, where I look at conflict and challenge as an expansion of the game. The difference between us is you see camping as an endpoint because you are new and really not very good at countering it. People who can counter it (and do regularly) aren't nearly as put out.
But that is assuming that it is possible to get the rescue, which is tied to why Bubba is infamous for being campy. Because Bubba is perfect for it. Yes, against some campy killers, you can get the unhook, and that can be satisfying. But in most cases, all you accomplish is that it's now you that's on the hook and getting camped, not that you actually get to steal the kill.
Listen, I'll be the first to turn around and attempt a genrush the moment I see that someone is camping, but therein lies the issue: In solo queue, without kindred, you need visual confirmation to know the killer is camping. Getting that confirmation takes time, and the fact that it takes time is what makes camping effective. The time it takes to run up to the hook, see it is camped, and then run to the nearest gen to do it can already be enough to make it impossible to clear all five by the time the person on the hook dies, and that's not accounting for the survivor taking the logical way out of one of the worst gameplay experiences and just letting themselves die on the hook.
And if you can't clear all five before the hooked survivor burns out, it's likely to turn into a 2K, and that is not a loss for the killer.
I'm glad we agree that incentivizing the Killers and providing them more options is a good way to go. I respect that you cede that point; it means that you are open to finding solutions.
That is not a point I 'ceded', that is something I've held to from the get-go.
Fair enough; if incentives has been your point from the beginning (and I missed it) you have my apology. Oddly enough, my new Feedback post is in part inspired by your posts and Johnny_Xman. I recalled that you talked about the game Little Nightmares in some of your earlier posts (a game we have both played) and that one also has games within a game. It seems to me that the initial Hook stage should stay as it it now, because the Entity hasn't been summoned yet.... however...
2nd Stage when the Entity has been summoned could be an entirely different story. While we see the Survivor struggling to keep from being skewered by the hideous, sharp legs what if what the Survivor sees is a mini-game entirely inside a his/her own mind, a spiritual construct where they are solving puzzles, or being chased, or perhaps even fighting something. Their successes inside this mini-game could extend the length of that 2nd Stage. *For the record, I've NEVER been against having the hook time extended, I just think it should be earned somehow by the person on it or the Survivors around (like that Steve Perk). I don't think it should have anything to do with how close the Killer is in proximity to the hook as that goes back to trying punishments (which were always abused).
Now consider this, a game is going on for the Survivor starting in 2nd Stage where they can extend their time. It could certainly be made interesting and not conflict with the spaghetti code as it is game within the game. A face camping Killer might sit there for a LONG time while others worked the Generators or worked out rescues if the person inside the game within a game is putting up a good fight. The key being IF... there is no such thing as a free lunch. Extra time would have to be hard fought and earned. And best of all, the Survivor in this mini-game can be earning BP or Advancement, and perhaps even bits of Lore if puzzles and clues occur.
I'm getting far ahead of myself as the mini-game needs to be carefully considered, but I think it is a good place to start and I would NOT have thought of it without your Little Nightmares context and Johnny_Xman's post.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2171370#Comment_2171370
Yours first started to hit the board in March, and your very first day you were already complaining about stuff. You didn't even know the game yet, but you knew what you disliked. You have to realize how entitled that is right?
You think people come to the forums just to say "I am content, change nothing"? Yes, I started with a confirmation that there is a sound bug. Sue me.
You and I (and anyone else serious) have to come up with workable options, actual feedback that the DEV can use which hasn't already been tried.
And I'd be more than happy to brainstorm (Already had ideas about extended sabotages and utilising something akin to blue glyphs), but that still doesn't take away from the fact that camping is bad for gameplay and should be strongly disincentivised.
Ideally with improvements to the killer role. The idea that the killer role needs to be improved isn't mutually exclusive with the idea that camping is bad for gameplay.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2171376#Comment_2171376
You're still not forced to give away the unhook if the hookstate still progresses, just slower. You can just sit on the hook and let the last remaining survivor do the remaining gens solo if you want. But you just can't expect to get more than one kill, even against un-coordinated teams, if you go camping.
How about this? If I'm forced to give your entitled butt free unhooks you lack the skill to get normally, then I want all Survivors to be forced to fail skillchecks if they make too many in a row. It's UNFAIR and UNFUN when 2-3 gens pop within one 60 second chase! Gen rushing is totally unfair and unfun and needs to be punished! Stop letting Survivors do their objective!
Slower gens in exchange for no camping? I'll bloody take it. Seriously, I have no qualms with slowing down gen speeds in exchange for no camping. I've stated that before, too.
You need to get it through your head that I want the game to be more fun for BOTH sides. Take the pressure of killers and give them more options while massively weakening the options that take the fun out of the game.
Again, it's not a zero sum thing.
We will have to agree to disagree about camping being bad for game play. I would, politely, suggest that you don't know enough about it to make that assumption. Anyone can squat at a hook, but experienced Killers are using a wide variety of camping and honey-potting tactics to not only get downs, but also to pressure generators and gather information. Camping isn't cut and dried, it is a skillset which actually does require finesse to use properly. I'm going to be blunt; you are new and you aren't well-rounded. That isn't a crime; we all start that way. But it does color your viewpoints and blinds you with bias.
Camping forces different kinds of play and tactics from both Killers AND Survivors. Some of the most exciting play, and satisfying is making that rescue from a camping Killer. It happens every day, probably five or six times in just the time you read this post. I've done it, and had it done to me. Having to tackle the additional obstacles of a tough rescue on top of getting Generators powered, and totems cleansed ups the ante. You seem to only look at it as a negative, where I look at conflict and challenge as an expansion of the game. The difference between us is you see camping as an endpoint because you are new and really not very good at countering it. People who can counter it (and do regularly) aren't nearly as put out.
All that aside, dumbing down a game by removing options never helps. I'm glad we agree that incentivizing the Killers and providing them more options is a good way to go. I respect that you cede that point; it means that you are open to finding solutions. That will outweigh anything else. The next step is looking at the history, what has been tried, and what has failed. We have to look at what has worked, and we have to set aside our personal bias. It might surprise you to know that my own bias isn't that different from yours. I also hate (well hated) being camped. My opinion of it changed in time as my experiences broadened. I know it will sound condescending for me to say (and for that I apologize) but yours will too.
Another poster (and your thoughts as well) have brought to mind that if the chief complaint you (and many others) have is boredom on the hook, why don't we look at a game within a game, more options and choices and challenges for that person on the hook. Clearly that is a potential solution if you are being honest about why being hooked bothers you. It may be we have ALL been going about this the wrong way in talking about how to punish or reward the Killer when the best solution might simply be giving the hooked person something to do and look at OTHER than everyone else playing the game. :)
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@Johnny_XMan said:
I don't think in the years that I have played this game, I have actually read anyone asking for them to get rid of Camping, Tunneling and Slugging. Like, legit erasing it from the game.
In fact, funny you put it that way because whoever asked a question in relation to those 3 things (in one of the most recent dev streams) asked "Why Camping, Tunneling, and Slugging?" which is neither specific or explicitly asking to get rid of it, yet that is exactly how the devs took it.
Look. I get that it is part of the game, but much and sometimes most of the time those actions get used could sometimes boreline be abused, because they aren't used as tactics.... they are forced as 'tactics'.
You have people now that Wraith has been buffed (as an example) who only got excited for his buff because they can rush back to hook as soon as the opportunity arises to do so. Not because they felt that they needed to outpace the survivor's objective or because they somehow saw a survivor going back. They did it because they chose to and to attempt to take out that hooked survivor asap.
I don't think punishing them through points is the answer because people will still do it regardless. I think giving survivors more options OUTSIDE of perks would be a great start. That camped survivor especially should feel like they are playing the game and not a sacrificial lamb.
At the end of the day people just want to be able to play the game without waiting 20 minutes for a lobby only to go in there and do one of two things Hold M1 or Accept death on hook. That is not fun and that is not the concept of this game, because if it was I don't think people would have bought it in the first place. At this point the worst thing BHVR can do is nothing.
This is a good post, because it touches on something that is a potential solution to the frustration of being on the hook. We can't remove the hook, nor the Killer's agency to defend it, but what can be done is increase the play involved for the person on it. Right now you just struggle and wait, passively (short of having Deliverance or loaded up luck) to be rescued. I submit a game within a game for the person on the hook might be an option, something complex, challenging and interactive to pass that time. It might even lead to getting oneself off the hook, buying that extended time, and so on. That is an avenue that I don't think has been fully explored. I think perhaps it should be, because if the chief complaint of those being camped is being bored those two minutes, a game within the game, some bit of hope and effort, might go a long way.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2171296#Comment_2171296
You are still NOT providing additional options
Because that is not the subject of this discussion! The topic is titled 'Camping should not be punished', not 'how can we improve the killer role?'.
And it's kind of rich to pin that on me when everyone here is crying about how boring and one-dimensional killer is, but it's on -me- to fix it because I say camping is really bad for gameplay? You're accusing me of not wanting to fix killer issues but you're content to leave killer as bad as it is, just to have survivors share in the misery.
And that's topped off with the fact that I did actually put forth a suggestion for reworking regression to improve it and make it a stronger gameplay aspect but apparently no one was interested.
Unlike you, I am more than willing to eat crow and accept a viewpoint other than mine if it can be shown to work.
I am accepting of any viewpoints with a solid underpinning, but your argument of player agency is feeble at best and nonsensical at worst. How far does it stretch, for example? Should we just allow killers to cheat since that improves their agency? Or is there perhaps a greater goal to keep in mind that's more important than player agency?
You're putting the cart before the horse. Agency serves gameplay, not the other way around. And if the overall entertainment value is decreased from a certain aspect of agency, it is better to have it removed.
No, camping isn't fun. For anyone involved.
On the contrary, I can disprove that myself. I have fun in every game I play, whether I am camped or camp. Those are just tactics, nothing more and nothing less. The game is the fun, the challenge, not the specific things done inside a match. For the record, whenever I enter an extended debate with someone, I want to fully understand their context, the way their mind works. That way I don't assume too much without seeing the evidence. As such, I go read all their posts. Yours first started to hit the board in March, and your very first day you were already complaining about stuff. You didn't even know the game yet, but you knew what you disliked. You have to realize how entitled that is right?
Your posts vary from Lore to a long litany of complaints that when actually laid out and graphed show your bias is horrible. I'm not going to do that to you right now, because it is a bit petty this early in our discussion. I just want you to be aware that I'm a thorough kind of guy in everything I do. When I talk about the game, I'm talking about it from all sides. I am interested in the fairness and fun for all involved and weigh things against viability and balance, not my personal preferences. If I were to base everything on my personal preferences, my arguments would be very different.
In your defense, you aren't a Sluzzy. Your posts aren't all one note, and there are some that impressed me. I think if you turned your very agile mind to this problem in an unbiased way, you would probably come up with some really good ideas. I just think you need to take your blinders off. For better for for worse, camping is part of this game because tactics are nothing but Player Agency, and this game only turns on agency. The entire engine and setup is based on it. I know we are getting deep here, but I assure you that I am not blowing smoke up your behind. If you want more fun, then you have to be part of the solution. You and I (and anyone else serious) have to come up with workable options, actual feedback that the DEV can use which hasn't already been tried.
I am of the opinion that rewards, and expanding Killer options is the best way to go. Barbecue & Chili, for example, is a Perk which has been a glorious success in that it incentivizes Killers to leave the hook. Without it, camping would be far more common. If we look at that success, and extrapolate on it, I'm sure you and I (and many others) could come up with additional things which would expand Killer options and the viability of Search & Destroy.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2171210#Comment_2171210
Here's the problem with your reasoning: You're acting as though the only possible choice killers have is to either chase or camp, and that chasing is nothing more than holding W and following the survivor's trail.
You're ignoring builds, power choice, you're ignoring gen pressure, you're ignoring three gen forcing, you're ignoring gen defense, you're ignoring in-chase choices, you're ignoring everything to simply state that the game comes down to 'choosing whether or not you camp'.
If that were the case, we'd already have no killers. You state that the game thrives on unpredictability, but if it's just 'camping or not camping' that means there's literally only two types of matches, and after playing both, you will never get a new experience. You're acting like all non-camping killers act the -exact- same way.
Yes, I get that killer isn't fun to play due to how limited its gameplay is. But camping isn't fixing that, because camping is taking the potential gameplay and limiting it as much as possible. No, you wouldn't need to rebuild the game from the ground up, although you will need drastic changes, but people are asking for those changes -anyway-. And the existence of one problem doesn't mean you shouldn't solve the other. It's not a zero sum game. Killer gameplay needs fixing? We might as well fix camping while we're at it.
As for your statement about removing camping causing killers to quit, I have an inversion of that assertion for you: Keeping camping in is not going to retain killers. Those that commit to camping are probably not going to stay in the game since they already take the option of not playing it.
It would be reverse Pac Man, a stilted boring chase game with four Survivors running a simplistic maze chased by a largely mindless Killer constrained to following the only viable patterns at jungle gyms and so on to try and get a down. How long would this interest anyone?
Apparently for five years, since the majority of killers don't camp.
Actually, no I'm not. I address each of those things and where they fall in the chase versus camp dichotomy. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't trying to play rhetorical games to change the subject and simply missed that. Most Killers don't camp, but they have the option. It is the choice, the Player Agency that matters. You are still NOT providing additional options, seeking only to limit the Players in the Killer role. That is a mistake, has been tried multiple times, and demonstrates your bias. That is the difference between you and I. I am aware of my bias and offset for it. You don't.
You have decided on the outcome you want and are not engaging in actual debate with me. That isn't a very productive way to approach it. Let's start hearing some specific policy and mechanics from you. What are your actual suggestions so we can analyze how they will work, if they are any different from what has already been tested (and let me tell you... the DEV have tested a lot of options), and the trade offs of them. Unlike you, I am more than willing to eat crow and accept a viewpoint other than mine if it can be shown to work. Right now, you are showing us NOTHING other than you repeating over and over again what you WANT. That is a far cry from showing us how it will work.
Another difference between us is that I actually offer suggestions and examples of how to give Killers alternate options (choices) to achieve the goal you claim to want. Do you see the irony in that? I don't support your opinion, but I at least make a good faith attempt to talk about how to achieve the goals you want via alternative methods. You do not.
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@Firellius said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2169816#Comment_2169816
So was perma-sabo. Something being in the game is no excuse, since that's why we have a feedback forum. Game design always goes through many iterations because no design is immaculate.
But out of those three, Camping is the best example: It's simply not fun for anyone involved. The person getting camped is not having fun. The people holding M1 on gen are not having fun. The killer simply staring at their victim or bobbing up and down that hook is not having fun.
The entire purpose of the game falls apart completely when camping. And it's holding other developments hostage as well, since you can't actually improve the issue with survivor objective speed due to any slowdown on that front being a direct and unmitigable buff to camping. It's only a 1K? Well, now the gens take so long that the killer can sit out both hookstates and then find and down a second victim before gen 5 pops and the gates are open.
Imagine what non-Kindred solo queue would be like. Yuck.
Slugging and tunnelling are considerably less egregious, but camping is the literal worst thing DBD has to offer and there's no real argument for wanting to keep it. In particular, the idea of slowing the hookstate progression while the killer is nearby and not in a chase seems a perfectly tailored solution that helps reduce its viability without hindering normal gameplay.
And once camping is done away with, genrushing can be addressed.
I can make an argument for keeping the option for it. We are fighting people, not Bots. Killers only have so many choices to make in game, considerably fewer than the Survivors themselves. All Players, both roles, decide on their Build but once the game starts Killers are constrained to a largely reactive function, with the Survivors leading the dance. Consider:
- Killers can choose to enter Search & Destroy mode or choose a 3-Gen. from the start.
- Killers may choose who to chase if multiple targets appear.
- Killers may choose to slug or hook.
- Killers may choose to defend the hook or return to search and destroy or defend Gens,
By in large that is it; if the Killer is thrifty they can hook in proximity to Generators they wish to defend, which tends to make the choice of whether to defend the hook (camp) or not easier to make. If you can get two out of three things done with one action, why wouldn't you do it? It bears noting that Generator Pressure falls under the "Search & Destroy" mode above. When you break down the limited choices above, you find that your Killer really only gets an option of chase or defend (camp).
Now let's put Player agency under the microscope, and further analyze these limited choices.
- Search & Destroy is pretty much chase mode and little else. Defending a 3-Gen is Camping Generators.
- The Killer choosing whom to chase out of multiple targets is pretty much a question of to Tunnel or not Tunnel.
- Hook or Slug is just to Slug or not to Slug (which in turn leads to camp or not camp).
- And finally, choosing to defend or return to Search & Destroy is simply camp or don't camp.
All this talk about either punishing or limiting the Killers options on whether or not they can (or should) be able to camp instantly reduces them to glorified Bots. Who the hell wants to just be a Bot? With so few choices to make, the loss of even one is terrible. The specific loss of the only non-chase option is a stake through the heart of free will. We have enough trouble keeping Killers now. And just to be clear, I'm not advocating Camping. I am simply adamant about the fact that the choice must be there. I think a great solution is to offer rewards which increase the value and number of Killer choices. If we make it worth their while and provide additional options, Killers will take them. Simply trying to punish or regulate them out of what little free will they have is going to fail miserably (as it has in every past test case).
Let me put it another way, if the only real option left to Killers is chase mode, there are better chase games than DbD. People who just enjoy chasing will gravitate to those games which do it better. People enjoy DbD for a variety of reasons but one of the big ones is the unpredictable (and sometimes unfair) nature of it. Playing against PEOPLE is more satisfying than playing against Bots. Reducing people to being glorified Bots would also reduce satisfaction (both sides). More to the point, to keep the game viable and retain ANY Killers, the loss in options would require a massive increase in chasing power to offset. Then people would just be complaining about Killers being too fast, having too accurate hit boxes, and/or having OP Powers. A PvP setup is always a balancing act, and when you remove Player Agency it has less and less wiggle room before it breaks one way or the other.
I know I'm being a bit exhaustive here, but I'm trying to give you the real problems created by trying to take away Player Agency (either role really). As Yords pointed out, if you did try to remove it the game would have to be rebuilt from the ground up and it wouldn't even remotely be the same game. It would be reverse Pac Man, a stilted boring chase game with four Survivors running a simplistic maze chased by a largely mindless Killer constrained to following the only viable patterns at jungle gyms and so on to try and get a down. How long would this interest anyone?
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@LegendThe27xx said:
I have came up with a pretty cool killer:
The Traitor
Weapon: A hatchet
Ability: Throwing his main weapon and it highlights where it lands, in a survivor or on the ground, and The Traitor has a HUGE speed boost to get his main weapon. He has 30 seconds or his hatchet breaks, forcing him to go to a locker and get another. He needs to be fast like the blight because he does not have a way to damage, and you cant just go to a locker and get another until it breaks. And if it hits a survivor, he has to run and get the hatchet, pull it out of the survivor and wipe the blood off. If he pulls it out, maybe the survivor should have to mend. This kind of makes him a combination of Huntress and Legion.
Perks: Survivor Psychology-Every three hooks, he gets a token, that token can be used to stop a pallet from being dropped on him. What I mean is, he puts his hand and stop the pallet repositioning it so it can be used again.
Story: Many years ago, he was a survivor, but his fellow survivors left him to the killer as they all escaped. His sudden hatred for survivors got him chosen by the entity many years later. Now he seeks revenge on every survivor. He is a pretty young guy who is very athletic, but has lost his mind out of hatred for survivors, so that is why he is a killer.
I couldn't come up with a name for the ability, and i could not come up with some more perks. But it is a pretty cool concept
I would steer away from hatchets as we already have a Killer chucking those. A killer who wields a Spear, however, that would work as both the melee weapon and the hurled like you describe. Some nasty person from Nordic or Pagan mythology would work for this.
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@Hektic3000 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2170221#Comment_2170221
Certainly a reasonable player, the biggest thing I hate when playing killer is feeling as if "there's nothing I can do". I would love to not camp and give everybody an equal chance of playing but im not allowed the time to do so because gens go by fast. I want to run weird unorthodox builds but when 2/4 of my perks are regulated to gen defense my choices are pretty limited.
I hear you. You can rest-assured that over time that feeling will go away and your ability to get things done will let you stray further and further from hooks until you only camp when you have a specific reason to do it. Sadly it just takes thousands of hours of play to get there when you are constantly being put up against people far superior to you. That is the problem we have right now in DbD. To keep the Queues moving, they will put Killers up against people way too good them. That means Killers, even those who are no longer Potatoes, have to make a hard call. It is camp and tunnel to try and get anything done, or run around and just practice looping and accepting the loss.
Oddly enough, both are viable ways to get better at the game. There are skills in playing keep away with the hook that need honing, timing for grabs, and knowing how far away to be and when to be close. People act as if Camping is this plug and play, easy thing. While it is true that anyone can squat on a hook, doing it in a way that is truly effective in turning one secured kill into multiple does require competence and effort. Me, I pride myself on the intercept and grab. I play a LOT of Spooky Myers which means I am Proxy Camping to a degree, in that I go off on patrols to maintain Generator pressure but use my wall hacks to know when someone is making a run on the hook. The trick is to have GREAT map knowledge and routes in your head with timing. It isn't easy, but you can intercept at the hook and make that grab. The best thing about this method is that I haven't given up Generator pressure entirely, and since I've being seen elsewhere, the would-be unhooker doesn't take the right precautions to foil my grab.
I digress but wanted to give you a specific example. Accepting you are going to lose against far superior opponents is also valuable. If you accept that loss you will not get tilted and be far less frustrated. You can use them as a tutorial for looping and hunting down Survivors. The better they are the faster you will improve. If you get to the point where you can bird-dog excellent Survivors you should not have been matched with, imagine how good you will be against the ones you should be matched with. Does that make sense. Basically, I'm saying when you find yourself feeling powerless... laugh... nod... accept this is a learning game... and decide what you want to practice more.
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@Hektic3000 said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2170133#Comment_2170133
Like why don't people understand that its Killers vs Survivors in terms of gameplay, both sides can't win and one has to lose.
I don't know. I play both Survivor and Killer in equal measure. I play hard and expect my opponents to do the same. I don't blame either role if/when they waffle-stomp me. I give them a congratulations and a thank you for the game. I'm not saying that Dead by Daylight is perfect. We all have our opinions and suggestions, but gutting Player Agency is a no fly zone for me. I think encouraging, with rewards, Killers to certain behaviors is a more workable method and doesn't impinge on choice. It actually increases choices.
The Perk: Barbecue & Chili, for example, is a shining success in this regard. It gives Killers profit and reason to leave the area of the hook. If it didn't exist, camping would be 100x more common. I not against approaches that expand choices and encourage different tactics by making them equally profit-oriented. In fact, I've even given feedback of my own about it.
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2170058#Comment_2170058
My suggestion doesn't take away player agency, it just makes tunneling, camping and slugging a little more difficult, and only in the early stages of the match. If a killer is hellbent on tunneling, all they have to do is find the survivor again. The only difference is that with my suggestion, the killer has to consider their options a little more seriously.
Never said or alluded to killers being my glorified Bots, killers will still have the free will in order to choose what actions that they want to take. I've faced plenty of Pyramid Heads who were able to tunnel out a survivor even when they used cages.
Just like the many complaints of how survivors do gens too fast, complaints of being tunneled/camped out of the game at the start of the match are just as valid. I am all for player agency, but fun for both sides should be equally as important.
What part of Player agency do you not understand? Strategies and tactics are ALL agency. I always do short patrols after the first hook because I like to gauge my opponents; I want to see how many come running to that first hook so I know how altruistic they are in that specific match. I need to know what alternate means of Generator pressure I can apply. Are they coldblooded and will milk that first hook for every second of Generator possible, or will it be one, two, or all three that come on the run. This is me being tactical and gathering information. According to you, I don't get that right because YOU feel it is too early for me to camp. Man you have some nerve.
And what about those Killers who can Proxy camp and don't need to be close to get the same result. Are you saying that Hag, Trapper, Demo, and Freddy (not all but a good sample) who can leave their early warning systems and fast return options should be penalized the same as my slow Spooky Myers? :) Do you have the audacity to say that some Killers don't have the RIGHT to use their Power in the way it was actually designed? Or if you are saying they can', the rest of the Killers have to just take a flying leap? You haven't thought this through, not one bit.
I can give about fourteen more tactics, strategies, and reasons the Killer may stay close to a hook early, or tunnel a specific person, or slug at five Generators. They are all fair, reasonable, and part of the reason we play the game against PEOPLE and not Bots. Tell me how it is going to work in your grand design when your version would make some Killers extinct and not harm others at all?
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@Huge_Bush said:
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/2170023#Comment_2170023
I'm not demanding that you play less hard, I am requesting that the devs make camping, slugging and tunneling less attractive or convenient.
One can also say that people who fully support these tactics at all times just want to be able to win easier, which is true, for if they didn't want an easy win, they wouldn't tunnel, slug or camp at the start of the match.
Also, this has nothing to do with swf. I actually believe that the devs need to balance the entire game around swf on comms. Killers should be buffed so they can have fair matches against cheaters who use outside communications, while also bringing up solo so they don't suffer even more than they already do.
You probably think I am a biased survivor main, but feel free to look up my comment history and you will see I am not.
You just want a little Deus Ex Machina from the DEVs to take away the agency of other Players which provides an "easy" win to those in their opposition. Interesting. You don't see the irony in your demand at all do you? Killers are also Players and they want the same agency as Survivors. They are not here to be your personal, glorified Bots. Free will is a harsh mistress. Rigging the game to force a narrow window of options is turning Players into Bots, and we will lose them. We are already suffering for Killers for a number of reasons. This is the game; there are only so many choices Killers get to make, i.e. who to chase, when to chase them, and whether to put them on the hook and/or slug them. Removing or as you coyly put it make it less attractive (one would assume to the point that they can't) reduces them to to Chase Bots. All due respect, I don't think you could possibly have thought through the implications as you seem like a nice person. Why would you want to condemn any Player to being just the Ghosts from the old Pac Man game?
This isn't about buffs or debuffs. This is about Player agency; a game either has it or it doesn't.
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@Trickstaaaaa said:
I went up against a twin user today who slugged to an extreme level. She slugged everyone before she started hooking. Like she took a nea down first and she just began slugged everyone, and we were trying to pick up only to keep getting slugged. downed by victor. It's only till we all got downed did she finally started hooking, 2 people died on the floor. It's a very boring style for me and other people who play this game have said the same thing. And that is why a lot of people do not like to play vs the twins, because of that playstyle that some twin users like play, not fun.
There could be any number of reasons, but both the Twins and Oni are particularly good at Slugging; that is the main reason they do it.
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@sulaiman said:
Oh it sure is part of the game. But i do believe its not how the game is intended.
as it is asymetrical, it is balanced around the killer having an advantage over the survivors in a 1v1 situation, but he has to spread the damage (or hooks) (like hooking one guy, go into chase with the next, hook him, start a new chase, while the remaining 2 survivors (the one not hooked and not in a chase) have to spread their attention between unhooking and doing gens.
However, tunneling employs the 1v1 advantage the killer has to gain an advantage by reducing the number of survivors.
Its like a father playing with 4 kids. All together, they might overpower him in a rough´n´tumble, but if the father decide to change the rules and the kids have to go against him 1v1, the outcome is clear. But one is a fun game for the whole family, the other is an unsportsmanlike abuse.
The thing is that this game has no decent matchmaking, and a killer outskilled by the survivors has very few options to do anything at all.
Its a thing people would never do in a real life game, because soon they would have noone left to play with.
And I believe it is exactly as the game intended, i.e. an option (a choice). Spreading the damage out across multiple Survivors is the job of SURVIVORS. That is accomplished by Killer stuns, safe rescues, stealing chases, taking protection hits, and so on, etc. It is not the Killer's responsibility to do the Survivors' job for them. In most cases, the same person being hooked twice in a row is a situation the Survivors COULD have influenced or changed, but simply didn't try or didn't try hard enough. :) Some Killers are determined to take out one person; that is a fact. But in most cases, Killers simply go for the next closest target, whatever seems like the best option. Survivors can use that if they want to do it. More often than not, they unhook someone and vanish like Ninja leaving their already wounded peer to be the only viable target when the Killer arrives back at the hook.
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@Alionis said:
I was in a lengthy discussion in the chat with a bunch of survivors who kept telling me that tunneling is not part of the game and that I shouldn't do it. I heard a lot in my time playing DbD about tunneling, but never that it outright isn't part of the game.
I got disconnected from the server before I got a conclusive answer, so my curiosity remains piqued: is there a convincing argument of why tunneling is not part of the game, when it, as far as I'm concerned, clearly is.
Keep in mind that the question is "is not part, because...", not "shouldn't be part, because..."
Tunneling is a slang term which historically means picking out a single Survivor and chasing them until they are dead to the exclusion of doing anything else. Many people insist on using the term incorrectly, applying it to going after the same Survivor you just hooked. Who you go after and why is entirely up to you. Even if you were to accept the Survivor's Rulebook for Killer's definition of the term, you are not beholden to following any standards they want you to accept. You have Player agency, and can decide to do whatever you want within the rules. All you have to abide by to be a good sport is:
- Don't cheat, either by hack or lag spike.
- Don't disconnect; if you start a game, finish it.
- Be humble in victory and gracious in defeat.
Going back to Tunneling, by either definition, it is part of the game and a tactic. Sometimes it will pay the Killer dividends, and sometimes it will cause the Killer to crash and burn. When and how to use it only comes with practice. You must be prepared to be accused of Tunneling (whether you do it or not) all the time. My advice there is to just ignore them.
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@thefallenloser said:
How does a map get updated and their glaring issues still aren't resolved? Killer vision is still horrendous and Michael's and Ghost Face's powers are still essentially useless while in the corn.
Neither can stalk through the corn, which makes no sense as survivors can blind you perfectly through it.
Please.
Fix.
This has been a complaint for years.
I know Spooky Myers's wall hack works through the corn. I've used that build in like 10+ matches.