MadMoeZel
MadMoeZel
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@drsoontm said:
Bombed? I understand "bombed" as unfairly badly reviewed.
My review of the game, updated the 22th of April, is negative for various reasons that made me stop pretty early and, as far as I know, aren't fixed yet.
About a month ago, I've tried twice to prestige my outpost to get visit and had virtually nothing. (That was my chief complain, there are several others.)
There is a reason the Steam charts are showing such a drop in the player base.
have you ever seen an ad for the game?
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Flame Walker Il guerrafondaio è immune ai danni da fuoco.
there you go.
edit ^ directed at the staff
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@hastarkis said:
That's exactly what it does. The patrolling path is blocked by the cube preventing guards from passing through it until it is triggered to dissappear. There is no word about making it actually solid, the guards just see it as an obstruction when patrol or chase.
acting as a normal block as masquerade's text states would imply that a guard can patrol on top of it. a guard can not to so. if a guard falls on top of this block, they pass through it, no normal block has that interaction. going through the top of a block, and continuing through the bottom of the block is "passing through" the block, which Masquerade text clearly states, can not happen, yet does. by this logic - Masquerade is doesn't work properly
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@CcPicci said:
Your point is very precious. I posted this idea on reddit before writing here with the trap available only on walls. Then a user pointed out that It can be used on floor and ceiling too. Thinking about how it works, using on floor and ceiling might be a problem with HRV. So It can works only on walls, HRV doesn't activate It and the trap can be broken only before It activatation. Once on, the wall remain at new position, so HRV can use a second Path, maybe using the new wall as part of the new Path. Or the Wall return to his position when the raider takes matgen.
it seems like you have a core mechanic you want to add of moving a wall, but i think that it needs a bit more detail into how it interacts with it's various environments. example. masquerade says that a holo block acts a normal block to guards, yet they can not walk on it, and if they fall on it they phase inside it. I have that filed as a bug because that not how "normal blocks" behave with guards. interactions like that could be hard to forsee but need to be considered especially in future implementation. you've stated the trap can't crush a player, if a player activates said trap and slips into the space that the wall is supposed to move into after activating it, what happens? does the same crushing protection apply to guards? if the wall can be moved INTO the HRV path can it crush the HRV? in order for it to allow pathing to change it would need to open a shorter route, or block the shorter route while accessing a longer route. how would this function when combined with the 1 way no-pass doors? could it be used to trap people in inescapable halls?
just a lot to look into in regards to how a trap that physically moves location works.
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3428928#Comment_3428928
here we have a disagreement on PvE or PvP
You can argue it's either, or both.
Maybe it's a player driven pve, or a disconnected pvp.
The examples you've given however are all direct pvp games. Each encounter is like-for-like, in order for one person to gain rank, someone else has to play against them and in turn lose rank.
MYM is purely a grind. You can just farm rank points to your desired level.
"The examples you've given however are all direct pvp games. Each encounter is like-for-like, in order for one person to gain rank, someone else has to play against them and in turn lose rank."
builders did lose rank for 0 death runs. we saw tons of people who said they took bases offline as a result (i didn't)
"MYM is purely a grind. You can just farm rank points to your desired level."
if you stop farming rank in a direct pvp game is that not farming rank to you desired level?
edit - forgot to add quotation marks
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@TragicSolitude said:
LOOK AT THIS CRAP I AM SO TIRED OF THIS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PqYEHdPi9k
This is NOT okay. It just suddenly put me in the damn Corrosive Cube.
I am so frustrated.
i notice this happens more and more the longer you're in co-op. when i co-op i tell them that i don't handle this kind of thing well and if it happens repeatedly i'm done for the time being.
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maybe we just don't have the right PARTS XD
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Both bugs have been covered here please go look through the threads before create new ones.
the ammo return glitch has been explored and described in depth and is related to physical location within the outpost. the soft lock is related to the "one way door" posts.
remember the shape of the one way door and just don't go there. HRV can't go there, it's always the wrong path. don't be greedy for tombs and you won't get caught in them.
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New Mod - Just Kidding -14 capacity, corrosive cube becomes non-lethal and stays non-solid, allows painting the corrosive cube.
get back that 14 capacity and have a passable paint-able 'corrosive' cube
edit - *quietly imagining the 2nd wave disco ball of harmless glowing jello i'd make*
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@Dreamnomad said:
This is more or less a compilation of various threads I've started or ideas I've posted somewhere. Some of the ideas I've fleshed out a little more.
Addressing the Issue of Too Few Raids Per Outpost:
First thing I would address is the issue of too little peanut butter being spread over too much bread. (raiders are the peanut butter and outposts are the bread) I would take a two fold approach to the issue.
- Limit active outposts to 2 per player +1 legendary (rank 10 retired outpost) which can only be recharged with gen mat once every 14 days.
- Reward active raiders with raids on their outposts. If you want extra raiders then all you have to do is successfully raid other outposts. For each successful raid, you have one of your active outposts of equal or lower difficulty pushed to the top of the queue until you have either a successful raid or 2 abandonments. Using my previous metaphor you become the peanut butter to spread over your own bread.
Increase Synthite Acquisition Rates:
I would do this through a number of different ways.
- Increase the daily bonus from 250 to 750.
- Offer a 25% refund of synthite spent on an outpost when it is destroyed.
- Offer a bonus of synthite to level 10 outposts that have been retired based on how much excess prestige the outpost earned. There would be a cap on the amount of extra synthite earned this way. Probably around 1500 to 2000 max.
- Allow players to exchange resources at a loss. For example you could buy 100 X resource for 250 Y resource.
Introduce Hall of Fame Outposts:
I've been thinking it would be great if particularly amazing outposts could be archived and permanently accessible to the community. An outpost hall of fame so to speak. The way I would do it is to create an additional button when given the option to give accolades. The new button would be something like "Nominate". Raiders would be restricted to only being able to nominate one outpost per day. If a raider really wants to nominate additional outpost in a given day then it would cost resources. (100 cells for 2nd nomination and double for each one after)
Then each month the game devs would review the outposts with the largest number of nominations and select a small number of them to add to the highlighted outpost section. Players could raid those outposts as many times as they want, but they will only be able to get the gen mat a single time. The outpost builder would gain some kind of bonus in terms of resources as well as the honor and fame of having their name attached to an outpost that is permanently part of the game.
I think everyone wins with a system like this. Builders gain a source of inspiration as well as an awesome goal to achieve. Raiders have a place to raid some very inspired and amazing outposts. The game devs have an additional tool to interact with the community as well as an additional draw to the game.
Display Player Stats:
I would add multiple ways to display player stats. One would be somewhere in your command center. The other would be to add a monitor at the beginning of each outpost where raiders can see the builders stats. The builder would obviously have the option to make this information private or limited to what stats they want to display.
The outpost monitor would display the stats of that particular outpost (raids, kills, kills per raid, accolades) on one monitor and the builders raider stats on another monitor. I think this would give players a little more interaction with each other. Raider stats would include things like number of successful raids at each difficulty level. Number of deaths. Average raid completion time. Average raid deaths. Which trap killed the raider a given number of times.
Make Management of Outposts Easier:
It is a hassle to have to load an outpost just to activate or deactivate. I would make it so players can handle all of these things from the command center. I would also give players the option to set how long they want an outpost to be active for.
Introduce New Equipment Over Time:
Sticky Grenades - Everyone knows what these are. They are in just about every FPS game. Would be a great addition here against rooftop traps and the like.
Ammo Restock - Ever come up against a base designed to eat your bolts? An equipment that returned all spent bolts back to your magazine would be great.
Teleporter - Just another safety net option. Throw the device down and then when you are in trouble activate to teleport back to the device. Similar to Phoenix pod but you don't have to die first. Obviously this would have to self-destruct when picking up gen mat. Why not just use Phoenix Pod? There should be some advantage to the higher risk like 2 charges or something.
Drone - Want to quickly scout an outpost? Flying equipment that doesn't trigger traps. Explodes after 9 seconds. Capacity of one.
Remote Control Car - Harvey died and you're sad? Drop a single use remote control car that automatically follows HRV path. Triggers traps and guards. (moves faster than HRV but slower than player run). Explodes on death or after 12 seconds.
Plastic Explosives or Satchel - Small room full of stuff giving you trouble? Short throw range, detonates upon activation, large explosive range. Run in, toss satchel, run out and explode from safety.
Introduce New Custodian:
So we have a ranged specialist and a melee specialist, I'd like the next custodian to be a hybrid specialist. Something like:
- Whenever you destroy a trap or guardian with a ranged weapon gain a shield that lasts for 1.5 seconds. Cooldown 12/10/8 seconds. (shares cooldown with arc shield)
- Whenever you destroy a trap or guardian with a melee weapon return a missing bolt fired to your ranged weapon. Cooldown 10/5/1 second(s).
- After destroying a trap or guardian with both a ranged and melee weapon create an explosion centered around your body that doesn't harm you. Cooldown 12/10/8 seconds.
This would support a "run and gun" style of playing that I think many would enjoy.
"Whenever you destroy a trap or guardian with a ranged weapon gain a shield that lasts for 1.5 seconds. Cooldown 12/10/8 seconds. (shares cooldown with arc shield)" this is an unlockable weapon as a biolink."
i think this is much too strong
"Whenever you destroy a trap or guardian with a melee weapon return a missing bolt fired to your ranged weapon. Cooldown 10/5/1 second(s)."
we already have a bug where people can get ammo through solid objects, this is that on steroids.
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@TragicSolitude said:
I also think doing stuff like community events could help as well; 2x Synthite events or 2x XP events. Maybe even have challenges to complete for cosmetics or something, community challenges as well. The developers really need to find a way to keep players engaged with their game.
Yes. They really need to do some events to get players engaged. They need people to feel rewarded for playing. Challenges to encourage raiding would be good: raid some number of bases to earn a decal (to get Builders raiding), raid some number of large Brutal bases to earn a weapon recolor (to get Raiders raiding more). Gacha games with garbage gameplay retain players by rewarding them with shiny things; people like getting stuff.
Events would also make it look like the game is alive and active. Waiting until late June to release the first major update for such a bare-bones game was a terrible decision. The content drop itself should be a major event, with special Outposts where each player explores and unlocks the new Sector, uncovering lore through gameplay, feeling immersed in the world. But it's probably just going to be like a DbD content drop: here's the new chapter, please buy some cosmetics. This thought makes me sad when MYM has so much potential.
we could always start a crowdfund to buy the game rights XD
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@Dreadnight said:
Four consecutive days reactivating a base and not a single assault...
I don't plan to continue playing the game unless the problem is fixed
it doesn't make sense for me to spend 6h+ creating a base so that no one can assault it and get prestige
gotta get on that social vibe with us mate. we got tons of fun maps we play and share <3
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My data says normals get the most raids, followed by dangerous, brutals get very few.
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@TheShindig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3428592#Comment_3428592
The actual function wouldn't use kill ratio directly. It would be much more appropriate to weigh kills asymptotically. For instance, 20 deaths already indicates the raider is struggling significantly. If they decide to stick around and die another 1000 times, there would be no reason to increase the weight of their run much further.
anything routinely getting 20 deaths is most definitely brutal, you'll have no argument here. but where do we put the lower breakpoint?
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3428895#Comment_3428895
Its a pve game. So nothing would make rank skill related.
Hell, even in a pvp game like DbD, rank has so little to do with skill, that they ultimately removed ranks.
@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3428895#Comment_3428895
If outposts weren't player created, but created by the devs, rigorously playtested and balanced, with difficulty assessed in house.
As it stands, it's essentially an asymmetrical pvp game, much like DBD. The win condition is disconnected from player skill, as both sides can win or lose any given 'encounter' at the same time, and can give each other free wins.
here we have a disagreement on PvE or PvP
i'm on the PvP side of the fence
a player made the dungeon, a player set the traps, a player set the guards, a player set patrols, and a player runs that dungeon. at every point a player was in control of what was in play and how it was responded to.
@Tsulan, is it the fact that you think it's PvE that makes you say there is no skill related rank? does that not do a disservice to any competitive puzzle solver? coming to a solution quickly an efficiently is very much a skill in my
@Seraphor, "As it stands, it's essentially an asymmetrical pvp game, much like DBD. The win condition is disconnected from player skill, as both sides can win or lose any given 'encounter' at the same time, and can give each other free wins."
The statement that both side can win or lose any given 'encounter' applies both to this and head-on games that we see like OW, or LoL, RL, and any player could potentially get enraged at something and then give the other side free wins. and that behavior is displayed in a decrease in rank because they made an emotional, unskillful play that gave up their chances at victory. (giving up) thats something inherent to any skill based ranking system, the ability to backslide if you can't keep up your performance. the skill is in consistency. you can not consistently outpace other players in the ranking without both skill AND time invested.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3428893#Comment_3428893
For people that dont want to leave.
those people don't also want to have an engaging dungeon where each shot has to be consciously made rather than blindly firing at every target?
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@MythicMikeneto said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3428344#Comment_3428344
Gave it a go. It was a good time.
NGL after death three I was ready to just follow HRV for as long as it took. I think it illustrated my example of how if I just followed Harvey I could have saved myself some time and deaths.
I restarted the level after 'escaping" with the gen mat to give it a go knowing where it was.
I am not exactly sure what your complaint is at this point. It seems like you are ipset the guy didnt bypass parts of your outpost because his spatial awarenss was not great enough to track which way was the shorcut.
Until I followed Harvey, I felt like I was reading a book out of order. Thay bieng, said my exploration helped me get my bearings enoigh to know where to go. Had I tunnel vision followed harvey, I would have likely had to continue to follow him on subsequent runs.
The TL:DR your outpost is a bit 'big brain' for some of the masses; I mean that as a compliment.
So I recommend not getting too upset when Mr. IQ less than yours comes through and has to hold Harveys hand yo make it through.
Thanks for the social raid. Very impressive outpost. Ingenious (for big brain base) and brutal (for my deaths), if I could give them.
Full marks if the game allowed.
"So I recommend not getting too upset when Mr. IQ less than yours comes through and has to hold Harveys hand yo make it through."
the number of people that get mad or block/report a builder who kills harvey tells me this is more common that you'd think.
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3426520#Comment_3426520
There was a dev post on reddit saying that they are aware that there is an issue with the matchmaking. So it might be just that. Another bug.
we love seeing the news about the game not being posted on the forum dedicated to the game. it's our favorite!
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3426839#Comment_3426839
I don´t consider myself to be very skilled. I get a ton of micro freezes when i start playing. For example, the other day i died to a spike trap, when i stood in front of it, the recticle was red and i just pressed m1 for the sword.
Yet i climbed to gold 2 before the rank rework. Ranks are just grind related, not skill related.
Tell me, what would make rank skill related?
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@Tsulan said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3426831#Comment_3426831
Well the ammo catridge would be for exactly that. Bases with ammo traps. Or rooms with 50 plasma guns aiming at the entrance. I´d like to see more variety with approaches to certain rooms. I often don´t use any consumables at all.
The tagging could be like in Elden Ring or Dark Souls. Small things that might help or not. Which you can delete or also leave a false message. But yeah, maybe not.
why bring in ammo stockpiles when you can just leave bases with ammo traps for no penalty? *shrug*
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3428805#Comment_3428805
Nowhere near any traps, it was on the outside of the outpost.
HARVEY!!!!!!!!!!! (KAHN!!!!)
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@grimthejester said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3423333#Comment_3423333
I made ONE map that was impoosible to beat, got tons of kills, but no genmat stolen. So i know it can be done.
Even i couldn't beat my map and i made it. So i changed the map until i could beat it because it's not about ruining the game for everyone else to feel accomplished.. It's about building a challenge.
I'm sorry if you feel threatened by my suggestion that you should be able to beat your own map to publish it, apparently, you are the kind of builder who would have left the map intact.
I have probably already blocked your maps in game, along with probably many others, it's kind of like player based punishment cause the more people who block you, the less raids you get. Better to make maps that CAN be beaten so people WANT to play them.
"I have probably already blocked your maps in game, along with probably many others"
i guess i just don't make maps for you
you want to see what i'm capable of i'll send you to a map with a kill rate of about 2,500 and only ONE completion so far. Me. your map isn't impossible mate
block me if you like, my maps are for people who actually want to be good at the game and i don't need your raids, but you lose out on mine, and i'd wager i play quite a bit more so you're the one losing out really.
edit - name the map and i'll beat it.
and if you're the kind of person who posts maps that you can't beat, maybe you're the problem, cause i don't know anyone else who does.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3428490#Comment_3428490
I wasn't able to use my own boost, but I carried my friend to Suits level 50 so his boost would be worth it plus earning Cells to upgrade all his stuff, and while doing that I carried him from Bronze I to Master. The current system doesn't prevent carrying, it just sucks for the player who's not the host. The non-host goes through the dungeon while the friend with no upgrades stands around waiting, coming through when it's cleared out to get the much needed resources, and avoiding dying so they get the full amount of rank. As the non-host I feel like kind of a chump for playing to my full potential and not dying, I don't know why I'm bothering when it makes no difference whatsoever, especially when I'm mostly playing solo and I'd rather run the base with him since we're playing co-op but neither of us want him dying and losing rank. The system sucks, and it'd be nice if the non-host at least got half of the normal XP/rank.
Edit: Also, if this is intentional, then the devs need to make a statement and this information needs to be included in the Tutorial/Game Tips section, because it confuses players and leaves them feeling cheated. Reports of this as a bug show up constantly on the different forums and on Twitter.
it doesn't prevent carry, but it means you're carrying blind until they level up sufficently
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3428666#Comment_3428666
i've never seen a "killbox" outside of brutal,
Raising the threshold for Brutal will help with the confusion caused by the wide margins on capacity, but it would then increase the availability for killboxes in lower difficulties
This is why I suggest these changes together. Individually they don't serve much of a purpose.
- There's currently little need to push killboxes into brutal, most of them are already there.
- Raising the threshold for Brutal would allow more killboxes to slip into Dangerous.
But change both at the same time, and you get more generous ratings for non-killboxes, while keeping the killboxes where they should be.
Oh and for another suggestion; reduce the impact of HRV path length. It's largely inconsequential for actual difficulty, killboxes often have short paths, while longer paths tend to be easier because the traps are more spread out, but a long HRV path seems to be pretty impactful for difficulty rating.
My current outpost is on the cusp, and adding one wedge block so that HRV skirted around a corner a little wider than if the block wasn't there, was enough to push it over into Brutal.
did that edge block maybe change the los of some traps so they overlap?
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i just don't bother doing anything decent in live because i've seen the evidence that players avoid art and challenge builds. why put in the effort if they're actively not playing them?
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@CcPicci said:
Basically no traps upon a trap. HRV doesn't activate traps so It should be ok and no rule changes. It detects in one direction, 2 blocks detection.
"HRV doesn't activate traps so It should be ok and no rule changes."
HRV can walk on top of 2nd wave acid and holo blocks during first wave but not second, they can never be considered a valid path.
The trap as suggested has the potential to block the HRV path unless precautions are implemented against it, would all routes that include this trap be inelligble as a valid route? could they be used as a floor with moving tiles, if so will HRV route over them, how will this change if the tiles move?
seems activation functions like an impaler with +1 range and then does it shift in ANY direction? or any direction excluding the detection face? like could a moving wall "charge" you and make a large room smaller by advancing several of them? what happens when they're destroyed? empty space? or does the wall just stay where it broke? if the latter, how do we handle this trap being broken mid-transtion
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3428476#Comment_3428476
Just to be clear here, I don't even like the idea of goggles that let you see the HRV path. I just don't like "lore" to be an excuse as to why an equipment idea can't be used. You can always change the lore to suit the needs of gameplay. If you don't like an equipment idea because you feel there is an issue with balance then I'm all ears. Like my RC car idea earlier. It addresses the same issue as these goggles would and someone made some pretty good arguments as to why it would be an issue so I changed the item accordingly.
"If you don't like an equipment idea because you feel there is an issue with balance then I'm all ears. Like my RC car idea earlier. It addresses the same issue as these goggles would and someone made some pretty good arguments as to why it would be an issue so I changed the item accordingly."
kinda like where i said it would trivialize all mazes and path obfuscation which are both intended parts of the game?
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@Samannoyed said:
I think you make a good point, I previously thought and posted about bases having another difficulty added to them within their current categories based on kd. I completely get where you are coming at when you can have a brutal base anywhere from 1500 to 4500 capacity.
at P9&10 its just over 6300 capacity
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3428642#Comment_3428642
There definitely needs to be some work to refine the difficulty rating system either way.
One thing I think they should do, is add an additional multiplier for same traps within proximity of other traps of the same type.
There's already a multiplier for trap proximity in general, but I mean if you stack dozens of corrosive cubes together, or line a room with sentinels.
This would make "kill boxes" more costly in terms of difficulty rating, making them more likely to get into Brutal, and high Brutal at that.
Then the threshold for Brutal could be raised, allowing more leeway for high capacity Dangerous outposts that are built more sparsely.
"One thing I think they should do, is add an additional multiplier for same traps within proximity of other traps of the same type."
I can't quite figure out why, i'll have to think on it more but this doesn't sit right with me
"There's already a multiplier for trap proximity in general, but I mean if you stack dozens of corrosive cubes together, or line a room with sentinels."
"This would make "kill boxes" more costly in terms of difficulty rating, making them more likely to get into Brutal, and high Brutal at that."
I guess i just need to accept that i play in a way that what people call "killbox" in dangerous or normal doesn't register to me. i've never seen a "killbox" outside of brutal, the games difficulty calculations more or less force it to be brutal if there are enough overlapping angles. i think the most threats i was able to fit in a single room even trying to game the difficulty lower was 9 enforcers with maybe 12 or 15 acid cubes scattered around a room that was like 9x9x9
thats 24 threats, over half of which have no form of targeting and are stationary. that's a "killbox" in dangerous. after playing brutal dungons and dealing with 20+ things that TARGET me in a single room, i'm just not phased by things like the dangerous "killbox" if it really is an issue of stacking too many things in a single space then i guess sure, yeah increase the difficulty for duplicates more. but i already find it immensely difficult to make a normal dungeon that i think will be a challenge, fun, and artistic without it pushing over to dangerous OR leaving me with a disgusting amount of empty space which is boring.
"Then the threshold for Brutal could be raised, allowing more leeway for high capacity Dangerous outposts that are built more sparsely."
Raising the threshold for Brutal will help with the confusion caused by the wide margins on capacity, but it would then increase the availability for killboxes in lower difficulties, because any outpost that was in the low range of brutal before would be considered dangerous after that.
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@CcPicci said:
Traps can move up to 3 blocks with mods; 1 block in basic mode. It can be put on walls ceiling and floor (elevator solution maybe). Raider can't be pressed from moved wall. So, for example, putting a standard range moving wall on left side, move the player 1 block to the right. This scenario needs at least a corridor 2 blocks large to place the trap. Hope Is more clear.
that helps a lot for my visualization. how would this interact with the HRV path? can we put traps on the wall that moves so we could slide a trap into position? whats the activation range, does it detect in one direction, on 2,4,6 axis or spherical?
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@TheShindig said:
Monitoring and adjusting outposts is the fun part of building, so I hope you're doing that anyway.
The current way the game works with its hard cutoffs encourages builders to push every outpost right up to the limit of its difficulty class. This is actually limiting creativity. Personally I would much rather see a game where people just build whatever experiences they're excited about, and let the difficulty fall where it may. If you truly do intend for an outpost to be easier, you literally have to watch replays to see what raiders are messing up. It's an iterative process. That's the only way.
Regarding the outpost with a single trap making it all the way to brutal, this is completely absurd. It would never happen. If you don't believe me, we could even construct rigorous simulations with the game in its current state. You could literally make an outpost with a single trap, then hide as many other traps as you need away from the harvester path to adjust the difficulty up and down. We could use a simple kill ratio cutoff as a proof of concept. If it gets above to 2.0 (which will never happen) hide more traps to move it up to dangerous. If the kill ratio falls back down (which it would immediately) adjust it back to normal.
The game needs a statistical sanity check for fixing outliers. There are way too many outposts that are only in "brutal" because they are big. This is frustrating to builders who just want to make something fancy and moderately challenging, and it's confusing to new raiders who are getting mixed signals about how hard brutal outposts should be.
"Regarding the outpost with a single trap making it all the way to brutal, this is completely absurd."
you misunderstood me. i said what happens if you make a map you personally think is normal, and while you're offline sleeping or working, it gets enough murder to push it brutal. it can't be lowered back to difficult or normal without more plays. but to lower the lethality and adjust it back down you'd have to reduce the trap count. to quickly move it down you'd have to have no lethality, so you'd minimize your trap count to get back to the bracket you intended. but now you're in brutal, which has less total raids statistically, so you can't get your dungeon back down. death by brutal regulation.
We could use a simple kill ratio cutoff as a proof of concept. If it gets above to 2.0
how do you handle this?
i'm intentionally providing an exterme example because we need to consider them if we are to make a truly balance system. i'm not against a reorganizing of difficulty. just want to make sure we're fully investigating it's effects before it gets 'mis-implemented'
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PC also, pretty sure it's intended.
it prevents me from using my level 100 boosts to hunt dungeons and carry newer players to the top.
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i disagreed that
"Its almost like a system (basebuilding) that only rewards one special thing(kills) breeds exploiters that hunt only that special thing(killboxes and nearly unbeatable maps instead of creative and visually pleasing design)" was a
result of the basebuilding system
it's a result of how they punish raiders for dying. raiders run any dungeon that isn't a killbox hella paranoid, denying any dungeon that isn't a killbox it's income. so killboxes were born because of raiders being hyper cautious and the lack of ability to be sneaky with traps cause of no creative blocks or angles. but it wasn't born because we're rewarded for kills, it's born because raiders refused to give any to anything that wasn't because of how THEIR loop is designed. the builders didn't start with killboxes, we made fun artistic maps that got dumped on repeatedly and got no economic value. so we did what we could to fix that. if raiders weren't punished so heavily for dying, and played the game for more fun than progress, we'd see more enjoyable bases and less killbox bases. we also have a balance issue with co-op being in the same environment of solo. i cause use boltshot and impalers REALLY well against a solo because when they die, it resets. i can't do that on a co-op they just revive right there EVERY TIME. so i am FORCED to use bulk fire and plasma since they fire repeatedly. i don't like doing that, it's boring. but again, because of how the game treats RAIDERS builders have to play differently. we have to multi layer walls to stop ammo being pulled through solid objects, we have to make mazes at the front to stop people kiting guards outside to kill from outside their range. the raiders forced this situation by being as abusive as they could towards every builder they encountered. guess what, we aren't sorry this is how it turned out, it was forced evolution.
but yeah, i agree it's on the devs it's their game. and i give feedback just like you. but i don't think it's the raiders fault, or the builders. your post made it seem like you were blaming the building side of the game. you can starve a builder of raiders, you can't starve a raider of builds until every person is gone.
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Seraphor is bringing a good point which is that the wide bracket on brutal where it's from 1500-6300 is gonna still cause issues with readability in brutal. it also rasies the question in me, if i as a builder want to make a normal, but idiots die a ton and it becomes brutal, your system won't re-calculate until people have played, so i could have a 1 trap brutal map getting no raids because it's in brutal. getting bumped brutal by rage quitters would more or less equate in outpost raid death.
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@Seraphor said:
Agreed, I feel like successfully leaving with the genmat should give a baseline reward. Something like a minimum of 5/10/20 rank points and 10/20/40 of each currency, based on difficulty. Then you can increase the rank points based on number of deaths, etc.
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3427966#Comment_3427966
DBD does exactly the same thing strangely. Grades are ultimately meaningless outside of the monthly BP dump based on the Grade you reach. It's just a grind meter. But it still gives zero or even deducts 'pips' based on poor 'performance', which can occur irrespective of kills/escapes. You can 'win', but still walk away with nothing or negative.
i've seen that first hand lmao.
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@Ophanon said:
i didnt know that they have said it wont be a thing. i never thought of having to re validate every time a slight change was made that is a good point. However none of what i was really talking about you addressed. I dont make lame 2nd wave kill boxes and every map ive posted id be able to beat without a problem. Again i build normal and dangerous, however when i raid i usually do dangerous or brutal. The game re-calculates every time you place anything so whats the difference between placing the last trap or a block? You came in here hot and bothered for no reason when this is a feedback forum to move the game in positive directions.
"however on several occasions after making a normal base i come back hours later to see its progress, only to find out that it has been bumped up to dangerous."
"Its just not fun when you place all your traps and you are in the category you want, then go to do cosmetics with some blocks, and the base randomly jumps in difficulty."
@MadMoeZel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/375363/making-outpost-difficulty-reliable
before exiting a map but after placing your last guard or trap. remove and replace 1 regular block, wait for re-calculation.
behavior has gone on record that builder validation will not be added, and you don't want to have to run your entire base every time you edit one patrol route, or one block either, so stop asking EVERY OTHER PLAYER to do that, we already spend hours building and testing angles.
Do you make a habit of posting maps that you can't beat?
"before exiting a map but after placing your last guard or trap. remove and replace 1 regular block, wait for re-calculation."
yes i did. you ignored it.
"Side note if validation runs were required we would see a lot less 2nd wave kill boxes."
i also replied to this
"behavior has gone on record that builder validation will not be added, and you don't want to have to run your entire base every time you edit one patrol route, or one block either, so stop asking EVERY OTHER PLAYER to do that, we already spend hours building and testing angles."
then i followed up with my own thought because anyone who suggests validation obviously thinks people post bases they can't beat more often than bases that they can.
"Do you make a habit of posting maps that you can't beat?"
unless you are some kind of outlier in data, you can usually consider yourself part of the average dataset. meaning if you don't do it, most others probably don't either. people who cause problems are usually FAR FEWER than those who don't. so if you don't post maps that you can't beat, why do you think other people do?
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@TheShindig said:
You actually can do this. Social outposts don't need to have a valid harvester path, which means you basically don't even need to have floors if you don't want them. I played one outpost that was basically all corrosive cubes, but some of them had hard skin so you would have something to grapple or jump off of.
you have misunderstood my post. i'm saying i'd like a mode in social only that brings things like 2nd wave acid targeting, and other bugs that have/will be removed. it would allow the hardcore players to make insane challenges for one another that wouldn't affect the live game.
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@Bombzaway8222 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3427821#Comment_3427821
I'm not sure if there's a limit but the devs did mention something about monitoring the economy to find a better balance of giving out more or less of any given currency in game
100k is the currency limit. checking on consumables still
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3427804#Comment_3427804
You seem to be really hung up on this whole "HRV works for the builder" thing. I have several responses. First, who cares? Gameplay trumps lore, logic, physics or reality. I doubt you are particularly worried about objects floating in the air or whether the foundation of an outpost can support the weight. But even if you want to worry about the lore of the game it isn't hard to think of some way to work around it. The raider "hacks the HRV receiving point for the HRV route". Uploads said data to the goggles or whatever. Now the equipment has a lore excuse as to why it works. Happy?
"First, who cares?"
i reply to you with you
"You seem to be really hung up on this whole "HRV works for the builder" thing."
seems pretty obvious i care.
also, i do care about floating structures. super breaks immersion, and when i build elevated buildings i give them support legs or towers.
"Gameplay trumps lore, logic, physics or reality."
yeah it does, much in the way a dungeon master trumps the rules as written in the book. but every GREAT game has a lore reason for WHY things work how they do. i'd like this to be a GREAT game.
"But even if you want to worry about the lore of the game it isn't hard to think of some way to work around it. The raider "hacks the HRV receiving point for the HRV route". Uploads said data to the goggles or whatever. Now the equipment has a lore excuse as to why it works. Happy?"
yes, immensely. you have a reason for why things are how they are and aren't waving a magic hand at it. I could accept this as a reasonable logical addition, we live in a high tech post-apocalyptic world where we can create clones and custodians, hacking an enemy computer should be simple enough.
but seeing as this object literally removes the maze aspect of the game, i forsee MANY builders who make mazes because they enjoy them blocking raiders for their hardware choice if this gets added.
personally, i hate mazes, so i don't care, i don't play them to begin with. but path obfuscation is an intended mechanic meant to disorient speed runners when they go into rooms and the ability to see the path freely makes that impossible, thus removing a core mechanic.
you'd probably have a similiar opposition if somoene were to suggest something that just arbitrarily lets them mind control guards around them so they don't shoot. you'd wonder "well how did you mind control my guards?"
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3427804#Comment_3427804
You seem to be really hung up on this whole "HRV works for the builder" thing. I have several responses. First, who cares? Gameplay trumps lore, logic, physics or reality. I doubt you are particularly worried about objects floating in the air or whether the foundation of an outpost can support the weight. But even if you want to worry about the lore of the game it isn't hard to think of some way to work around it. The raider "hacks the HRV receiving point for the HRV route". Uploads said data to the goggles or whatever. Now the equipment has a lore excuse as to why it works. Happy?
yes, yes i am. because you have to touch the enemy harvester for it to work and i actually do care about the fact that things can float in this game. super immersion breaking.
you seem hung up and wanting your hand held so you don't get lost. sorry if just seeing my way to the enemy outposts main objective from the start for free seemed imbalanced and broken. oh wait, i'm not sorry. it wasn't well thought out.
for the record - GOOD games, have lore reasons for why things work how they work.
i also haven't given me opposition to it based on the fact it completely trivializes ALL mazes, 100% no maze can be a maze anymore. kind if a slap in the face to every builder who built one, but hey if you want to have an easy win, thats up to you.
i see a future where raiders are blocked for their hardware selection if that got added.
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needs more fleshing as to placement orientation, how much space it takes up in a block, etc. i'm having trouble imagining how this would function based on the description
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@momolepro48 said:
The coop on Xbox is buged. Only the Host of the party take xp/rank for raids. So its useless for now...
thats all co-op
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i find most people have lacking awareness.
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@TheShindig said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3427867#Comment_3427867
So, your first question is actually why I'm suggesting this. I think some new players raided a few outposts that were only given the "brutal" designation because they had a lot of traps, then they thought they were good, so when they played outposts that were actually brutal they felt that they had been cheated in some way. I believe that by letting new players get utterly destroyed by a brutal outpost right off the bat we would be setting expectations properly and avoiding bitterness and confusion later on.
If an outpost is consistently being aced by speedrunners, it might actually deserve to be adjusted down to dangerous. There is a deeper answer to this question that also takes into account the skill ratings of the people doing the speedrunning. For example, if a master aces an outpost it doesn't mean much because it isn't very surprising. If bronze ranks are routinely breezing in an out of an outpost, it might belong in the normal category.
To answer your last question, imagine the difficulties of outposts as being on something like a bell curve. In the case of a bunch of aces, it should be easier for a brutal outpost to be reassessed down to dangerous than for a dangerous outpost to be reassessed down to normal. On the flip side, it wouldn't take many deaths to push a normal outpost into dangerous, but it would take some serious carnage to push an outpost up to brutal. This way the 3 difficulties should feel very distinct, and I believe that will help new players learn the ropes faster.
at what point of lethality does a dungeon stop being considered normal or dangerous?
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@Samannoyed said:
So I know people haven't been getting much raids since the patch drop (myself included). There is alot of discussion around this on reddit and the forums already so I wanted to offer some solutions.
- You could limit the number of Bases each person can have active
- You could offer more incentives to people that do actively raid, eg bonus synthite for raiding 10 bases
- You could put a revenge system in where if someone steals your genmat you can revenge on their base to steal theirs (this means people that raid are also getting more raids)
- You could add an item in the game that gives your base queue priority for a time which could be earned by raiding.
This is what I have thought about so far, but would love to hear what else the community thinks of. I really like this game and think it can be great, it's clear the developers are listening to the community and I know they can make raiding great and building great again!
Also just a side note I dislike the new system of bases only getting enough raids to prestige then getting no raids after that. I get that they are trying to be fair but this kills the core gameplay. If every base only receives the number of raiders it needs to prestige then moves to low queue priority, you are essentially being punished for creating something that the players like and want to click on. Eg I make an amazing normal base, gets 5 raiders in the first 30 mins, gets 10 fun accolades and is then made low priority because it has enough points.
Bases should not be equal and should not receive equal raiders. Good bases that the community likes should receive more raids and bad bases should receive less. Also active players should receive more raids than inactive players.
😀
You could limit the number of Bases each person can have active
- the bases costing synthite mixed with the low raid count is naturally having this effect.
You could offer more incentives to people that do actively raid, eg bonus synthite for raiding 10 bases
- every 12 normals, 9 difficults, or 6 brutals you get bonus parts and synthite if you're doing your champions
You could put a revenge system in where if someone steals your genmat you can revenge on their base to steal theirs (this means people that raid are also getting more raids)
- seems fun, should for sure require completion of outpost.
You could add an item in the game that gives your base queue priority for a time which could be earned by raiding.
- would love to see some kind of builder offered bounty to the first person complete.
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@TheShindig said:
The weight of quitting vs dying would need to be approximated experimentally.
Editing the outpost would not reset the difficulty rating. If you've made it easier or harder, the stats will sort that out soon enough.
To address issues of taste, I would give quits lower weight if they were preceded by less deaths. To me this would indicate a lack of enjoyment rather than a struggle. It would still slightly increase the difficulty rating, but in practice I don't think any outpost would be adjusted all the way to "brutal" just because people don't like it. Accolades could also be a factor in this.
I would disregard co-op play entirely for these assessments.
The exact weights could be tweaked and tuned, or they could only address the most severe outliers. For example, a "brutal" outpost with 100% victory rate and no kills, or a "normal" outpost with a 10% victory rate and a ton of kills.
Bottom line, there will always be people trying to game the system for whatever reason, but statistical evaluation will be vastly more accurate than any hard-and-fast formula like they use currently.
what do we do about people thinking they should be in difficult when they should be in normal? how likely are players like that to flip a difficult into brutal. how do we handle the speed runners playing actually difficult dungeons and completing them quickly with few deaths? will this shift things into normal and punish newer players?
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@Chordyceps said:
So I've figured out how to effectively use pretty much every trap in the game at this point. One trap still eludes me in how to use it though, and that's the bomb ejector. Most uses I see of it in outposts it can be pretty easily avoided by running in the direction you came from.
So I wanted to ask how you all would recommend using the bomb ejector. Is this a trap that should be used with the intent of getting kills, or just as a distraction to make raiders panic with? What have you all done to get good use out of it?
use it on a fake path behind a room people often rush. make the fake path seem obvious and real, make it turn a tight corner and go nowhere and as they round the corner they trip the bombs and the bombs follow them in and bounce back off the tight turn.
in the floor under a holo block in a fight room to make the ground unsafe against enemies like hornets or with elevated fire on the walls.
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@zbord said:
Weird, but cells are currently my lowest resource. They're hovering around 3000 while my parts are 10000+ and synthite just over 9000 (it adds up when not buying, reseting or the like)
I'd actually like more uses for parts.
once you unlock all your content, they pile up because there isn't a way to consume them rapidly.
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@Viktoriusiii said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3425993#Comment_3425993
I guess? I think it is pretty obvious... but I'll try to make it more clear, maybe just my own bias:
"Its almost like a system (basebuilding) that only rewards one special thing(kills) breeds exploiters that hunt only that special thing(killboxes and nearly unbeatable maps instead of creative and visually pleasing design).
WEIRD. And totally not forseeable..."
I gave the devs multiple ideas in the beta on how to fix this relatively easily (remove harvey or make him optional, rate maps not by placed traps but by play/death/extraction ratio, feature maps with many accolades more often than those without, add an accolade "unfun")
But I was just bombarded by the hardcore fans for not being good enough xD
you act as if the system doesn't reward 0 death runs and encourage exploiting ammo recovery through walls and shooting guards that you kite to the map edge from outside their allowed range. the raiders are just as at fault. every person playing the game plays a part.
i put the maps out and collected data. i put out 4 XP maps and an art build in normal, my art build got HALF the number of raids of any single XP map, and the XP maps collected over 92%% of the total raids. this trend went on for multiple days in a row bow before and after the most recent matchmaking changes. builders aren't rewarded by raiders for being artistic, they aren't rewarded for making challenges, they aren't even rewarding us for the XP maps a lot of the time, and when they do it's with "ACCOLADES!!!!!!" which do jack all to cover the cost of keeping the outpost running.
so riddle me this, if i don't get resources from accolades, raiders don't voluntarily give kills on free xp maps, avoid art builds, won't play challenging maps, how is the builder supposed to feel rewarded by building? we don't get fun replays, we don't get resources, the accolades mean nothing even when they are rarely given out. why is it the builders fault if they then do the only thing left to them to keep their bases running without having to throw hours and hours into raiding bases after they spend hours and hours building that one that everyone is refusing to run because it's an artistic boat scene and they want free XP?
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i agree on the part thing. i'm currently trying to find out if there is a limit on consumables stockpiled