MadMoeZel
MadMoeZel
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- MadMoeZel
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@Fugue_State said:
Currently, we have a problem. There is a dearth of well designed bases active at any given time. This hurts raiders, because there is no fun content for them to raid, and it hurts builders because it results in a decreased player base leading to fewer raids on their outposts.
I believe the devs designed a really good game here, but I don't think they put enough thought into player psychology when it comes to rewarding players. Personally, and I'm sure this will probably be true of most people on these forums, but perhaps not true of the wider (now MIA) player base, the reward I look for is overcoming a particularly difficult outpost. However, I think that many players are motivated by extrinsic rewards.
Let's examine the rewards that are in place:
- Rank: This was improved as you no longer lose rank, but it still is not a good extrinsic motivator. For the hardcore player, it's largely irrelevant. Masters is relatively easy to reach (if you are motivated by the cosmetic rewards), and now that you can no longer lose rank it's not about how well you play but how much you play. For the more laid back player, now it's largely a system (in my opinion) that just hurts the player experience.
- Raider vs. Builder: You would think this would be a straight forward part of the game design. Raiders are rewarded for completing outposts as quickly and efficiently as possible, and builders are rewarded for killing as many raiders as possible. However, this mostly leads to builders creating maps that aren't fun to raid. Kill boxes exist because builders aren't incentivized to create fun maps, they are incentivized to rack up the kills. I imagine raiders don't mind dying to a brutal, well thought out, base design. But most people will see an outpost with an insane kill box and either Alt+F4 out or just quit. It's unfun for the larger player base (especially to the more casual players who are quitting in droves).
- Materials: Raiders are rewarded materials for 1. completing as many outposts as quickly as possible and 2. destroying tombs. Builders are rewarded materials for killing players. Refer to reward structure for point #2 for why that may be a problem. With the improved drop rates of synthite, this is less of a problem than it used to be, but overall I don't see this as a perfect reward system either.
- Upgrading your advisors and chimera. Alright, let's face it, 2 (maybe 3) of the advisor boosts are largely useless now. With the buff to prestige, you don't really need to use that boost. Parts are a dime a dozen, and synthite is still a relatively rare commodity so boosting genmat still doesn't make much sense. This leaves us with two advisors that you pretty much MUST run, which is boring. If it's mandatory, it's not a choice, and so not interesting. Additionally, chimera level doesn't really seem to matter, so what's the point?
Now, on to fixing these issues.
Fixing number four is, in my opinion, probably the easiest. 1. we boost synthite by 30% All the time, it doesn't need to be an activated boost. 2. For the remaining 5, we change it up. You can only have 2-3 active at any given time and each offers two boosts (one for building and one for raiding). For raiding, they give you some sort of extra effect. Say, a run speed bonus, an extra equipment slot, etc. Things to make the raiding experience a little different, with interesting choices that you might want depending upon your playstyle or the outposts you are raiding. For builders, I'm not sure what incentives the boosts could offer (maybe boosts solely target raiders?). Input on this point encouraged!
My idea for fixing #2 is perhaps a little more complicated. We need builders to create fun bases, and to do that I think raiders need some way to communicate their enjoyment back to the builder in a more tangible way. I suggest raiders be given a new resource based on the number of bases they raid. Perhaps, every 10-25 outposts raided they get one of this new resource. For the player that earns it, they can't use it for anything other than to reward it to builders whose outposts they enjoy. For the builder, this resource is valuable in some way. Possible options are:
- It gives a visibility boost to their outpost for a short time when they receive the reward.
- It increases the amount of time their outpost can be active for.
- It increases the capacity of their outpost by a small amount.
- If they receive X number in the life of the outpost, some other reward to the builder (perhaps cosmetic or tied to the specific outpost like a hall of fame).
Fixing #3 is complicated. Clearly it is a reward system meant to encourage play and activity. It's not a perfect system, but I don't see any improvements for it. Community thought?
Fixing #1, like I mentioned, might just be to scrap it and rethink the ranking system. Perhaps even separate ranks for raiding and building. The current system rewards raiding over building, but we need to encourage builders just as much.
The system is symbiotic. Raiders can't exist without builders, and vice versa. There should be some tension between the two, but ultimately the experience needs to be fun for both and the rewards should encourage the type of raiding and building that we all want to experience.
"Fixing number four is, in my opinion, probably the easiest. 1. we boost synthite by 30% All the time, it doesn't need to be an activated boost. 2. For the remaining 5, we change it up. You can only have 2-3 active at any given time and each offers two boosts (one for building and one for raiding). For raiding, they give you some sort of extra effect. Say, a run speed bonus, an extra equipment slot, etc. Things to make the raiding experience a little different, with interesting choices that you might want depending upon your playstyle or the outposts you are raiding. For builders, I'm not sure what incentives the boosts could offer (maybe boosts solely target raiders?). Input on this point encouraged!"
they just increased synthite economy and your suggestion is to increase it again? then the suggestion of an actual performance change in map related to boosts makes the game 'I can't afford my powerups so i can't beat this raid, better quit and find something easier' boosts should not directly affect performance.
"My idea for fixing #2 is perhaps a little more complicated. We need builders to create fun bases, and to do that I think raiders need some way to communicate their enjoyment back to the builder in a more tangible way. I suggest raiders be given a new resource based on the number of bases they raid."
here is an art build i made in normal that i upgraded to brutal at P5, 50 accolades, 56 raids.
here is an "XP" map that all the traps are acid, rewards no xp or loot. with 58 accolades, and 57 raids at the end of P3. a full prestiege lower with more accolades and raids, designed to waste the raiders time and punish them being rewarded more than art.
this is the core of your problem. raiders are garbage who can't be trusted to reward fun builds that took time and effort, and would rather play AND reward "free" bases designed to give them nothing.
the best solution i have to this is to make accolades given increase the lifetime of an outpost and i still don't like it because again, they play and vote more for XP maps than builds i put actual time and effort into making fun.
"Fixing #3 is complicated. Clearly it is a reward system meant to encourage play and activity. It's not a perfect system, but I don't see any improvements for it. Community thought?"
Give the builder resources equal to the raider for destroyed traps, give the builder a bonus to resources earned during the run based on the percentage of surviving guards/traps on the final run. give the builder the same reward as the raiders who open the forsaken tombs, reward the builder 25% of this amount for any tomb still alive at the end of the raid (to discourage tomb blocking) lower tomb loot 50% for raider, increase loot from trap/guard destruction 100%.
"Fixing #1, like I mentioned, might just be to scrap it and rethink the ranking system. Perhaps even separate ranks for raiding and building. The current system rewards raiding over building, but we need to encourage builders just as much."
Personally i advocate for bringing back and increasing the rank penalty for people who quit maps. the suit advisor boost is provided, you can't get kicked out of masters once your in it, and a true master completes the challenge in front of them, not quits. the fact that they removed rank penalty to cater to people who thought they should be master when they clearly aren't masters is gross. everyone wants their participation trophy. with information freely provided, there should be consequences for choices willingly made. This no consequence mindset is unbecoming of a game based around outposts of death.
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it's because of who the playerbase is. they target XP maps. any map i put up in normal gets less than 1/3rd the raids of any SINGLE xp map.
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@rootisonfire said:
Hi @MadMoeZel and @CcPicci ! After some more brainstorming, here is what I came up with to address the concerns regarding teleportation traps. One idea is to allow raiders to throw grenades into the teleportation portal before entering, giving them a chance to see what's on the other side and plan accordingly. Additionally, I suggest incorporating a computer console that raiders can interact with to view a sneak peek of the other side before deciding whether to enter. This console would provide valuable information about potential traps or hazards. However, it's important to note that while raiders are using the console, they may be defenseless if a guard on a patrol path shows up. It adds an element of risk and decision-making for raiders, forcing them to choose between gathering information and potential vulnerability. Lastly, raiders should always have the ability to back up through the wormhole they came through immediately if they sense danger. These ideas aim to strike a balance between safety and strategic gameplay. Your insights have been valuable, and I appreciate your contribution to the discussion!
"One idea is to allow raiders to throw grenades into the teleportation portal before entering, giving them a chance to see what's on the other side and plan accordingly."
"Additionally, I suggest incorporating a computer console that raiders can interact with to view a sneak peek of the other side before deciding whether to enter."
so you propose to let them freely scout the room once they've decided they're safe, and then to freely pick apart that room with explosives while outside of it with no risk to themselves in the scouting, throwing of explosives, and then checking to see what they hit to change their angle of attack? this is not something i want to see as a raider or a builder. if firing bolts through this was also permitted, that would be insanely strong for the raider and a huge detriment to the builder. raiders already have the ability to see and shoot through acid at traps and guards that can't respond, how about lets not give them a teleporter to do it from safety and a camera to investigate the damage each shot.
anything that the player can attack and see through should permit defenses to do the same in the spirit of fairness.
additionally, how does HRV and his route interact with this, how many teleporters can be on a map, what would you put their cost at, would they have mods, what would those mods cost if yes. what happens if a guard patrols over the teleporter, what if guard shots pass through or land on the teleporter, what about loading times for teleporting causing a player to die on the other side before being able to come back, how do you propose to set up the instant back travel while still utilizing the scouting/selection interface?
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i'm against any form of block destruction in raid.
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i'll worry about cross-save once we have cross-play co-op
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This was hard to read as a single block. please edit and break up the individual ideas.
some of what you have discussed has been asked for in the feedback forum, other parts have been discussed by devs. holo blocks specifically they wanted to give it the ability to camo as other blocks but had trouble with the code.
edit - thank you so much, much easier on the eyes.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3435353#Comment_3435353
The first of the three screencaps shows the Outpost offered as Weapons GenMat, second as Traps GenMat, third as a Champion Outpost. (I apologize if I was unclear, I don't think of "Champion" as a GenMat category since it rewards all five categories.)
It's not the only Outpost I've seen under multiple GenMat categories, just the only one I caught with screencaps. I saw an Outpost today pop up under both Suits and Traps.
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3435351#Comment_3435351
No problem. I used to see that text daily because I ran passive GenMat Outposts designed to avoid Prestiging, that way they lived forever and only cost 600 Synthite to refill. Can't do that anymore after the update to Prestige, sadly.
apologies, for some reason i only saw two pictures. i'm stumped on that one.
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i'm in general opposed to things related to teleportation, it will almost always be used in a manner by the builder that will lead to more lethality because its the only way builders are rewarded in any way that affects progression positively. teleporters by nature need to be immune if they are part of the path to genmat otherwise they could be disabled by bomb traps, dead mans switch, bolt shots, etc. without it there is a risk of getting trapped in a box with them and having the teleporter destroyed behind you creating soft lock.
all for illusion, advocated for a raider hologram than can be thrown to trigger traps and guards to gather information.
would love enviornmental hazards, i have posts for oil and sludge.
levers/plates/wires/switches are something we've been asking for but have yet to receive.
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@Dreamnomad said:
Oh yeah, I definitely agree that the flame explosion should still trigger if the trap is destroyed just like the impaler. Do you have an outpost on social where you think the corrosive cube with splash is effective? I'd like to see what you've come up with.
i don't have one built atm. it's best interactions are with guards and i tend to use very few of them in my designs.
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"Not sure what you mean by "correct category." I posted screencaps above that show the same Outpost in two different GenMat categories."
the 2 categories were Champion which awards all genmat, and it's normal type "trap" <- the 'correct category' for it when it's not being displayed in champion
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3435224#Comment_3435224
a P5 outpost can still show up in the regular list outside of the champion listing and will be in it's correct category.
Not sure what you mean by "correct category." I posted screencaps above that show the same Outpost in two different GenMat categories.
Champion status can't be lost,
If a Champion Outpost fails to meet the Prestige requirements and has to be refilled, then the Prestige points are reset and it loses Champion status. After the update to Prestige it might now be pretty difficult for this to happen, but it happened very easily before the update to Prestige.
See this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHkDaK2J5tI&t=98s Within the game, it says under Prestige Guidelines: "Reset if you fail to Prestige. Champion Outposts that reset lose Champion status until their next level."
thank you for correcting me, i never had this issue so i never encountered the topic.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3435068#Comment_3435068
Like I said, I'm not sure how it would be implemented, but I could see something like once you click the "banner augment" you are given a banner to place that acts like a holocube but it must be placed within 2 tiles distance of the holocubes location. I imagine the banners placement would be similar in nature to the tube lightings but has a piece of cloth hanging from it. I could also see this being a buggy nightmare for the game devs though. I like the idea but it might not be worth the resources to make it happen.
a banner out front on the outpost we could change could be easily implemented. but seeing the hitbox on the driveway metal and the HRV tower doesn't fill me with much hope. (try shooting just next to the metal and your bolt gets stuck in solid air)
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@Dreamnomad said:
Lets be honest, there are a couple duds out there not worth using. The flame trap explosion augment is a good example. It is extremely rare to find these in the wild. About the only thing worth mentioning about this trap is that the audio cue can be disorienting to a raider. But the explosive range is laughably small and the delay before the explosion is really long. A raider has to basically be hugging the flame trap to die to the explosion. Just increase the range a little and decrease the delay by .5 to 1 second.
The corrosive cube splash augment is awful too. The concept is good but the implementation is lacking. The way it currently works when the cube is hit with a bolt there are these acid blobs that shoot out into the surrounding tiles. The blobs act like acid requiring the raider to be exposed for a duration before killing them. But who is just going to stand around in acid without moving? What I would like to see happen is for there to be a blast of acid shoot out in a spherical pattern 75% length of a tile each time a bolt hits it. Then if a raider is hit with 3 splashes within 2 seconds then it kills the raider. I think 3 is the right number since a single bolt passing through 2 acid cubes would be too easy to achieve.
What other augments would you never use?
splatter's value is that it persists inside dome shields and lasts longer than the arm shield. though they need to change it so it fires the blob opposite the shot that struck it rather than out at a perpendicular angle to the face struck. it also needs to have an interaction with boltshot so that bolters can spray acid like every other projectile. splatter also has value any time you can convince a raider to grapple THROUGH it. it works well as a ceiling with guards that have to lob shots down a long all so that splatter rains down in multiple sections.
admittedly it took me about a month and a half to find value in splatter and they had to patch it. it wasn't working at all with plasma shots and hardened skin had like a 5% chance of giving you splatter, it's been patched but is still buggy with inconsistent splattering when hit that seems based either on location cube is struck, angle it's struck at, or how many times in a short period it's been shot. further testing is needed to verify.
eruption however is absolute garbage and i've only found ONE situation it can be used to get a kill and all they have to do to STOP ERUPTIONS EXPLOSION is shoot the trap. a simple QOL improvement would be making eruption finish going off even if the trap is broken.
edit -
somehow i missed your proposed splatter change. i'm against that particular mechanic due to how easy it is to stack guards in a room to mass trigger splatter, a bomb trap would almost guarenteee a death due to multiple splatters. i think the correct way to go is increasing the size of the puddle splatter leaves so it's harder to avoid, possibly the projectile should get the same treatment.
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@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/376384/show-the-genmat-type-icon-in-the-outpost
I don't know about before becoming a Championship Outpost, but definitely after becoming a Championship Outpost an Outpost can be displayed under any of the five GenMat types. So I wouldn't recommend attempting to theme according to GenMat type.
@Amaroq64 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3435204#Comment_3435204
Are you telling me that if an outpost becomes champion (which gives all 5 types), and then loses champion status, subsequent raiders see it as any random genmat type?
Dang that sucks. I like to theme them like that. :(
@TragicSolitude said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3435212#Comment_3435212
I don't know about after losing Championship status, but I've seen (on the same day) Championship Outposts listed as Championship and also under multiple GenMat types. It's annoying, actually, because it'll be some Outpost that just doesn't interest me and it's very noticeable that it's popping up in multiple spots.
i can add clarity to this.
p1-p4 it shows up in the list under the type of genmat related to the outpost.
tragic is talking about when an outpost hits P5 and becomes champion. champion outpost just display the flag symbol because they aware all genmat types. However a P5 outpost can still show up in the regular list outside of the champion listing and will be in it's correct category.
Champion status can't be lost, it just isn't always in the champion slot, but only a p5+ can be there.
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@Amaroq64 said:
I dunno about other builders, but I take the genmat type into account when thinking about themes/strategies for building an outpost.
It would be nice for players to get a reminder after they've loaded, of what type of genmat they're on. Not just if they forgot, but also for challenge outposts and social outposts, which don't let you see the genmat type from the menu.
The genmat drone's landing pole could have that particular advisor's symbol on it, or maybe it could be on the walkway.
Or maybe give builders a special decal that only displays that advisor's icon on it. (So they can't lie about what type of genmat the map is.)
never even something that crosses my mind.
"Or maybe give builders a special decal that only displays that advisor's icon on it. (So they can't lie about what type of genmat the map is.)"
i just won't use the decal myself
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@Seraphor said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3435092#Comment_3435092
No thanks I like to enjoy my games. I build outposts I find interesting.
If/when I get this jaded I'd just stop playing instead.
i get my enjoyment from the social groups. live has lost all appeal to me.
this is how i level my maps for 0 effort then use my actual effort for people who appreciate it
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want raids? make EXP maps. i'm getting accolades and kills. these maps are made normal on indestructible acid cubes so the raider can't get mats or exp. i make these to punish XP map hunters, and i STILL GET REWARDS FROM THEM. punishment maps, get rewarded.
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@Seraphor said:
Sounds interesting, but compared to the biolinks we have, +x% range and -x% reload, etc., this seems really elaborate and powerful.
Being able to see other players gravestones would forewarn you about surprise traps, completely invalidating most outpost builds.
The last 3 guards? which last three? How do you activate it? Does it just perpetually revive every guard but with only 3 up at a time?
I would think something like follows would be more realistic:
Allows you to see your own gravestones within 5/10/15 meters. This would require you to have died first, and then it provides an easy way to track your own progress and where you died on previous runs, so you don't need to memorise every single trap in a long-winded outpost.
Interact with a guard's corpse to replenish a random amount of your ammunition, can be used 1/2/3 times per raid. You might gain 1 bolt, or 14 shots, you don't know. Obviously not worth using if you're playing sword and board.
Interact with a broken trap to replenish a random amount of your hardware, can be used once per raid to replenish Grenades/+Spikes/+Shields. Keep it at level 1 to just restock on Grenades, or if you use Shields too max it out, and you might gain one of those, or both, can only replenish what you have equipped of course.
- "Being able to see other players gravestones would forewarn you about surprise traps, completely invalidating most outpost builds."
Survivorship bias or survival bias is the logical error of concentrating on entities that passed a selection process while overlooking those that did not. This can lead to incorrect conclusions because of incomplete data.some places don't have deaths because they are so threatening when looked directly at you'd never go there.
the biolink also requires standing still meaning it can't be used while flying around a room, you have to plan with it or use it in a shield to assess the situation while under fire
"Allows you to see your own gravestones within 5/10/15 meters. This would require you to have died first, and then it provides an easy way to track your own progress and where you died on previous runs, so you don't need to memorise every single trap in a long-winded outpost."
i don't play phoenix pod for the same reason, anything that REQUIRES you to die to work is sub par in my opinion.
"The last 3 guards? which last three? How do you activate it? Does it just perpetually revive every guard but with only 3 up at a time?"
yes, the last 3. the oldest one collapses when you acquire a new one.
"Interact with a guard's corpse to replenish a random amount of your ammunition, can be used 1/2/3 times per raid. You might gain 1 bolt, or 14 shots, you don't know. Obviously not worth using if you're playing sword and board."
I'm generally opposed to anything that interacts with ammo since it's already in an unhealthy place in my opinion. i'd limit it to one ammo for each gun, giving you 2 shots per corpse. one to break armor, 1 to kill the exposed target if it got implemented.
"Interact with a broken trap to replenish a random amount of your hardware, can be used once per raid to replenish Grenades/+Spikes/+Shields. Keep it at level 1 to just restock on Grenades, or if you use Shields too max it out, and you might gain one of those, or both, can only replenish what you have equipped of course."
unlike ammo, hardware has a part cost. parts economy is already flooded, theres no need for a hardware refund on the economic side and on a balance side, even 3 shields, with the possibility of 4 on a single player is too strong for any outpost to handle. if the game is reduced to only 0-1 death raids, builders WILL stop building due to lack of rewards, accolades aren't good enough when it costs resources to keep the outpost up.
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not sure i'm a fan of the teleport function but elevators would be nice.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3433244#Comment_3433244
Unless the banner itself is a trap similar to the holocube. A holo-banner if you will. Which I would be fine with except that I'm not too keen on cluttering up the user interface with traps that are redundant. A holo-banner would functionally be the same as a holocube so you might as well just use the holocube. I'd be good with a holocube augment that makes it appear like a banner though. Not sure how that would work exactly.
devs already said they'd intended holo cube to have other appearances but it was harder than they though to code it. a 1 block banner would be pretty weak.
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check if you're in fullscreen or fullscreen windowed, might change something. there has been a history of input eating in the game but i haven't explored it enough to have the details.
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@noggieB said:
Just gonna agree that no stats metric is going to be perfect, but most of the suggestions made here would be better than what we have at the moment! Devs can of course tweak the metric over time.
I think the current calculation is a good starting point, but then metrics could bump the outpost up or down one tier.
One concern raised by Loys in https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/364123/be-friendly-to-newbies-save-them-from-mix-maxxed-normal-outposts was that adjusting the difficulty of an outpost would burn the builder who had thought it was in a different tier. Although I guess that mostly bothers min-max builders (who deserve it!) and isn't really a problem if all tiers are getting raided equally anyway.
Another thought is that Normal, Difficult, Brutal could be different for different players. I.e. a low ELO player would see fewer truly brutal outposts, and a high ELO player would see more. This would also allow the devs to distribute outposts to get an equal number of raids, regardless of their calculated tier.
Having three distinct tiers is somewhat artificial anyway, since it's clearly a spectrum from easy to murderous.
Finally, do we even need tiers? How about instead, at the end of a raid, the raider can press "Too easy", "Too difficult" or "Just right" and then the game will give them the next raid, without them even needing to go back to the Sanctuary?
TLDR: Yes, keep the existing rating, but update it slightly with raid metrics, to catch outliers.
"One concern raised by Loys in https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/364123/be-friendly-to-newbies-save-them-from-mix-maxxed-normal-outposts was that adjusting the difficulty of an outpost would burn the builder who had thought it was in a different tier. Although I guess that mostly bothers min-max builders (who deserve it!) and isn't really a problem if all tiers are getting raided equally anyway."
why does a min-max builder deserve it?
do raiders not min-max? are they somehow different? not a big fan of double standards, please do explain why builders desrve to be bothered by having their stats adjusted after hours of building and meticulous calculation to full utilize the tools they are given WITHIN A POINT RESTRICTION. why is it that someone with wit should be punished on the builder side? do co-op players not raid in co-op to reduce difficulty and get access to that juicy infinite revive so they don't reset traps? both sides are equally guilty and everything the builders do is in RESPONSE to raiders actions. they pull ammo through the walls, we have to multi layer, they kill ALL the guards, we have to make ammo traps (and one of them just got removed by the devs cause of crying), builders are constantly forced to adapt and have things removed from them. raiders haven't had a single removal since release. all the bug fixes, make the game easier for the raider, not a single bug fix that helps the builder, like the fact that ammo can be picked up and reloaded through solid objects, or that you can revive a player through the walls and floors.
so why does the min-maxing builder deserve to be bothered by having their outpost they spent hours on suddenly change difficulty?
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yeah but more or less every other player wanted this. so, here we are. easy mode.
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shuffle them every time. suits getting highest raids cause it's at the top and ppl don't scroll is a real issue.
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@Seraphor said:
It's a guaranteed ammo sink. All you'd need is three corridors long enough to force the raider to disable the incinerator that's behind this slit block, and the raider is #########.
At least spend several hundred capacity on a ton of corrosive cubes to steal that ammo.
it's a guarenteed ammo sink that reduces the effective firing range of the thing behind it. i have the tradeoff of a smaller threat angle as a builder and the risk of it being ignored, you have the risk of losing your ammo to something if you can't play around it, or you could chuck a grenade in there, if it's a trap and it's 3 blocks back that makes fire cost 90 at 2 block effectivity and it's still able to be destroyed. if it's a boltshot, it's at most double fire and can be baited out, hunter is likely detrimental to it, if it's a guard you have the 15 shot bow and there is a limit of 20 guards. you already have counter play to what i'm requesting. you can bring in 18 shots.
Are you telling me that you NEED to kill every single guard so badly that you'd shoot every single one inside an ammo trap?
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@TheShindig said:
Well, yeah, I would have preferred the ranks to be a skill rating too, but ok, fair point. How about if most players beat the outpost in less than 3 deaths?
The devs can set the exact cutoffs however they want, as long as it does a better job of sorting the outposts than the current system, and that's setting the bar pretty low.
the 3 death count is a bad metric in a game that promotes dying to learn. it needs to be set higher. i think having the max penalty for deaths being at 3 is what promoted quitting and moving on to new stuff, the sharp decline in reward early on discourages persistence and rewards moving on. persistence will lead to higher skill player base, where as moving on i 'guess' promotes the high octane 'fun' player base. but incorporating both will allow for dynamic raiders
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@wright402 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3432391#Comment_3432391
I just went to test it out, if the path way is long enough yes, hrv shall automatically re route and go back. But I really doubt to many ppl well make it this long for it to for hrv.
your second part yes I’ve already talk about this, that only would work if the base builder didn’t put a corrosion cube for a short distance from the genmat so hrv has time to re route. So far the minimum requirement for him to re route is 4 blocks on the start of fourth block, if it’s 3 hrv shall just stand on the corrosion cube/last cube n not die, but completely stop working. If it’s 2 blocks or less hrv shall walk back and die.
i also found out that if you grab it within like 25-30% of way hrv is grabbing it, hrv shall walk one block back on the corrosion cubes n automatically re route I tested it a few times and it worked pretty much every time, however if he started walking back the cubes route it takes longer for hrv to re route
so it really doesn’t matter how long you live it they have It this shorter as hrv shall allways die.
but what am asking, what this whole post is about is this intentional, or a type of bug that is intentional that is a exploit.
here’s a video of me testing this all out.
he freezes in this video because he can't turn in place, and stepping forward would put him in acid.
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@wright402 said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3432474#Comment_3432474
Thank you for your input on this topic.
even if the developers aren’t on here I believe it may still reach them.
i can't tell you if it's intentional, i can only indicate that it applies in many circumstances, the more often you see it the more likely it can be assumed intentional. guards without a patrol route will behave the same way as a HRV path in regards to taking the shortest route to a target (you) even if they have a patrol route. if that path leads them over 2nd wave blocks during wave 1, they will take it. but during wave 2 they will take the safe route.
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Watch finally done and millions of other Meet Your Maker videos on Medal, the largest Game Clip Platform.
Third user who beat it is an Xbox player named ArmsUpXbox, he streams on twitch. i forgot to collect the screenshots of his runs.
nothing is impossible. the fact that people give up this easily and then block people rather than improving is genuinely disgusting.
this map was beaten by 3 people in under 48 hours of it being made. 2 on pc 1 on xbox. it was done with mouse and keyboard, AND controller. and it took less than 2 days to master for every individual who bothered to TRY.
everyone who says "impossible base" really needs to rethink their view on the game. you're either not practiced enough, or using the rough equipment for the challenge your facing. stop trying to force YOUR BUILD to be the right one for EVERY situation, it isn't.
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@bsoames said:
Free version of MYM: I think it would be great if there was a free version of meet your maker where players could only raid and upgrade their weapons and raider (while level-building features are locked).
Rationale - I love building the levels and to me the whole game is geared towards level building. I mostly do raids in order to get ideas for new trap rooms and trap/enemy arrangements. I also raid simply to progress and gather materials so I can beef up the traps and enemies in my levels. I have the suspicion that many players who paid for the game are in this same situation. However, after making a map and leaving it up for 2-5 hours, I'll be lucky to get one raider coming through my level. It makes me think that players (like myself) are disproportionately spending their time making levels and not raiding other's levels. When I leave up a number of maps for hours only to see no one has raided them, it makes me wonder "why am I playing this game?" However, when I come back to see 2-3 people raided my level, I'm happy/excited to view the replays which helps me fine-tune my level creation and leads to me playing more.
So I think something that would be positive for the existing MYM community would be making a free-to-play version of the game where one can only raid. This would increase the number of raiders on maps, which would further incentivize the map-making players to continue making their levels and putting them online. It would also be a good way to introduce a new audience to the game that may also help increase sales. Even if there is a large population of free-to-play players online that never intend to buy the full version of the game, it would help motivate and encourage the players with the full version of the game to continue making maps, since their maps would get raided more often.
(the free-to-play version could also have daily caps or death caps for 24 hour periods, which could still help solve the problem of people not raiding maps, but further incentivize increased sales and a more robust user-base)
Just a thought
i've seen enough people who hunt tombs, quit levels at one death, or quit without trying because HRV was killed by the builder or because the tombs are under holo blocks with second wave. i really don't want more people who have the mindset of "i'm only interested if it's free"
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@CcPicci said:
There's a disperate needs of them for our outposts! They'll be a very Cool addition for customization or... Hide a trap!
traps and decor can't be placed on the same block, i doubt they'd let us hide traps behind a banner and if they did that banner would block our traps ability to target but not the raiders just like acid.
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@Seraphor said:
If that outpost has a simple route you can speed past all of those sentinels, or maybe those sentinels don't have plasma cloud, then I'd agree.
However if it's designed to disorient you and cloud is in play, that's a definite Brutal. Multiple area denial traps that aggro on a single entryway with no way to proceed further into the room (pistons) is verging on killbox status. The only thing keeping it out of it from what I can see is the fact that there are only sentinel.
The fact that you use all three second chances (arc, shield and phoenix) is the reason you find everything so easy, this is impossible without using the arc barrier.
this base has been cleared by double sword, sword gun, gun shield, gun gun. i have phoenix pod on because i was running a bug map that killed me 548 times. i haven't swapped my build back yet. my normal setup is dome and grenade. what you don't see here is the 2nd door to this room 2 spaces to the left. what you do see but missed is that there is a blind spot that can be acquired for 2 shots.
@Dreamnomad said:
Depends on how large the outpost is. Probably dangerous but I've seen plenty of Brutal maps that would be easier.
i note a lack of screenshot with both your posts. thanks for the critisizm but adding in your pictures of what you think is in dangerous if you disagree with my assessment would be more informative of your opinions than what you've written.
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@wright402 said:
But is it intentionally made this way or is it a bit of a bug?
i know he can walk on them until the second wave, however I believe he should all-ways follow the pathway that allows the base to be valid. Not even the shortest pathway like this.
if you read the part about where I tested it, (better detail) when hrv is there to pick it the genmat if you do at the same time he well then follow then pathway that was the valid path. If it’s even a second after he well walk right back into the cubes n die.
so this couldn’t have been intentional and that’s what this post is asking.
there is a 2-3 second transition time from wave 1 to wave 2, if HRV is headed back from genmat to start towards 2nd wave path but doesn't make it there before transition finishes he will turn around and head over the main path.
however the path can be built in such a way that HRV will for sure be on acid and die if you touch genmat around the time he does. to prevent that death, time how long it takes him to walk the route, watch him take genmat, wait the timer out, touch genmat, HRV will then walk the other route safely. you just have to live long enough for him to make it back the other route.
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until 2nd wave, the 2nd wave blocks are safe to walk on and solid, HRV always takes the shortest route. it's a byproduct of AI.
he also walks on top of plasma sentinel traps both wave 1 and 2.
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@TheShindig said:
I'm working on something you might like for social. I need to finish prestige with it, but it should be ready sometime next week.
put it in the live roster, i'd rather get rewarded for running it.
when it's ready let me know and i'll re-roll maps and hunt it down
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@TheShindig said:
As a general vibe to target, I'd say anything bronze ranks are consistently beating in less than 3 deaths can go to the normal category.
As a side note: I just found out some players die repeatedly on purpose in loot farm levels to break the traps multiple times. So that would need to be addressed by the devs in some other way, otherwise their difficulty will always be overrated. I don't think that's a huge problem though, because farms seem to be a relatively small % of all maps, and people know what they're getting from the thumbnail, so they're kind of outside the scope of the problem I'm interested in.
as everyone will tell you, rank means nothing.
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@Seraphor said:
So replacing the exploit they literally just removed.
they removed an exploit that allowed soft locking. this wouldn't allow soft locking.
provided a player didn't chuck a phoenix pod inside it, which is on them
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@Dreamnomad said:
I'll be honest. I hate this idea. It completely breaks the balance of the game. It might as well say "raiders can't use bolts". Picture the following set up. Flame trap with two diagonal blocks in front of it so there is only small triangle opening to hit it. Then you place magnetic trap below it in a way that the magnetic field pulls bolts down but the bolts don't actually hit the magnetic trap. Now you have a repeatable trap that is virtually impossible to kill. Can't hit it with bolts, can't get close enough to break with melee. What the hell is the raider supposed to do? This would be both unfun and unfair.
you're still worried about a trap that has 8/9ths of it's face covered by blocks. it is an ignorable setup that doesn't require a shot. just walk down the edge of the wall, shoot the MAM, shoot fire, one way door was removed.
or just aim higher to account for the additional drop.
it also affects guard shots, bolt shots, bombs, and possibly plasma.
the clever raider uses this trap to shoot danger from a safe place by utilizing the bend it causes.
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@Dreamnomad said:
Okay, so the short answer is you are assuming that it is a bug.
i'm assuming that anything that involves an interaction with something you can not see/touch that reloads your weapon or revives a player or destroys a trap/guard(excluding bounced grenades) is a bug/exploit. yes.
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a lot. like.... a lot.
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seems to be linked to whatever trap i have selected or have my cursor over
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@MythicMikeneto said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3429121#Comment_3429121
I would recommend trying again soon.
Outpost exposure has changed. From the recent AMA it was revealed an actove outpost has increased visibility until it gets a certain number of kills. They only thing you sre up agains is 'player agency'. If the intel on you outpost lost nt good and the thumbnail is deterring, you might still not get raids; but that isnt the devs fault. Builder have to cater to the desires of the raiders. Sad, but true.
Accolades are worth more and the amount neeeded to prestige is less; add in the prestige buff and you likely wont miss a prestige. I have yet to not pretige an outpost since the update. I came relly close to missing prestige with a new large/bruta on p1, but clutch got a raid in the last couple minutes; which incidentally gave it enough to reach p5.
I can only assume there are other reasons you stopped playing; but you did not mention them, so I cannot advise if they have been impoved upon.
getting enough prestiege was never as much an issue as the obnoxious cost or reviving it compared to what you get over it's lifespan.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3430214#Comment_3430214
It is self evident that this is not true. If what you said was the case then there wouldn't be an issue with having enough raiders per outpost.
give it 2 weeks
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thank you for correcting it.
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this problem is self resolving. synthite stockpile will run low on people running 5 outposts if they aren't getting raids. they won't be able to afford holding all 5 up. then they will either lower their map count, or raid more to get the synthite required, increasing the raid counts for others.
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@Dreamnomad said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3429384#Comment_3429384
I've seen you mention a number of times about the "bug" of raiders retrieving bolts through solid objects. What exactly makes you think that is a bug and not intended? I've never seen any line of text anywhere that requires having line of sight to retrieve bolts. It's purely proximity based.
Anyway, I don't think you are being very objective with your criticism anyway. You don't seem to be accounting for the fact that you would need both a melee and a ranged weapon equipped to use the bolt retrieval feature. That in and of itself is a large handicap. That means no double range items as well as no arc barrier. That also means putting yourself in harms way to get a melee kill to get a bolt back. I think it's perfectly fair.
"What exactly makes you think that is a bug and not intended?" it's called "Magnetic hands" magnets that would pull a shot through a wall would do so with so much force you'd either be impaled, or be dealing with shrapnel from the wall it just rocketed through to get back to you. once again, this is an application of logic.
much like the application of logic that one way doors are a bug because you can fit through every other configuration of them.
"it never said it needed X" thats a bad argument, "They didn't say i had to feed the baby"
i can point to my masquerade post "https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/374543/masquerade-doesnt-work#latest" which depicts something explicitly describing it's actions and them not working as described. yet people are say that it's working as intended.
ammo recover doesn't say that it DOESN'T need line of sight either.
a magnet wouldn't need line of sight to affect your bolt, but you'd need it to pick it back up and load it.
i'd argue magnetic should drag your bolt if you're in range and if you get LOS it'll pick it up if it's still in range.
in your eyes raiders can do no wrong. they can pick up physical projectiles through solid objects, they can revive someone who's on the other side of a wall from them, they can use an invisible wall to prevent enemies from pursuing them while they can safely attack those same enemies.
you defend all that as intended.
but if a builder makes a 1 way door, that's an exploit. if a builder freezes harvey (or kills them in many peoples eyes) that's an exploit. if a builder used 2nd wave acid targeting in the past, exploit.
a conditional, only active during part 2 of the outpost, counter-playable interaction. called an exploit
but you're defending a 100% uptime ability to negate setups that are designed to introduce economic choice. builders are forced to bear the brunt of raider's issues every time. builders have to multi-layer walls to stop raiders from exploiting ammo through walls. builders have to multi-layer hallways and rooms to stop raiders from exploiting to revive their teammate from safety. builders have to adapt to everything.
acid targeting got removed. tell me one thing that raiders have had removed or changed because of the builder side of the game, just one. i'll wait.
and i know you think the raider can't be wrong and the builder is always at fault.
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@Dreamnomad said:
It is without question normal difficulty. Then difficult, then brutal. It's not even close either. My normal difficulty outposts get at least twice as many raids. By the way, size matters too. The smaller outposts get more raiders too. If you want a lot of raiders, small outpost normal difficulty gets by far the most raiders. That's because players want really quick/easy raids for maximum profit. If your most common trap type is bolts/impalers, that helps too.
this translates to (if you reduce your base lethality to nearly 0 by limiting your base size and picking single use traps that are easily avoided by holding W you get raids)
not healthy but still true
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@Warlord1981NL said:
Hi everyone,
Been playing since the start and I wanted to give my feedback on the game in it's current state.
First of all, I love the aesthetics and atmosphere of the game. I have always been a big of the post-apocalyptic scenario and I think you've done a wonderful job here and I truly enjoy this game asa much as I hate DBD for the flaming pile of garbage that that game is. But of course, this game is not without, imho, faults and I would like to help you make this game better and of course offer suggestions on how to fix the perceived flaws.
So first order of business is the Synthite drop rate. This is too low as even when you use the boost to increase the drop rate by 30% it still yields next to nothing. Now I don't mind the amount of stuff that I see drop when I go base raiding, so my first thought was to give bonus synthite for escaping with the GenMat, which then of course would be boost-affected.
Traps aren't dangerous enough. I would like them to trigger faster. When even the fastest trap doesn't trigger fast enough for me to pass it by merely walking then I think that is problematic. Someone can literally avoid being impaled by the Impaler by just not letting go of the W-key then I think that should remedied. Make all the traps trigger a tad faster, they are too easily avoided and don't make me feel like I need to be on my toes. With these trigger speeds I can afford being careless and sloppy and I for one think that is not desirable for a game like this.
I feel the same way about all the guards except the cannonbacks. Slow movement, slow firing. The default can be upped a bit.
Killrooms. A "design" that basically boils down to throw every trap and guard into one or two rooms. Lame, uninteresting, takes forever to get through, is not fun and not enjoyable in any way, shape or form. To remedy this, I would propose to increase the capacity cost of traps and guards by a percentage based on the number of traps in the vicinity once it exceeds a certain number of traps and/or in that area. Of course, people could disagree with my take on killrooms but I would have to point out that those people are wrong and that you shouldn't listen to them. (the last bit is a lighthearted joke, relax... everybody is so uptight nowadays...)
Let's now make everyone downvote this post at the final bit of feedback I wish to post:
Bring back detecting through acid blocks. I know a lot of people cried about it but I thought it was fun and enjoyable. Both for making them and playing them. Brought some real tension to the game which I think is great. However, this time, do make it consistent, it was a bit wonky in terms of how far out it would detect.
Kind regards,
War
agree on acid, but i don't see it coming back in any form outside of a mod. (which i'm fine with)