Viktoriusiii
Viktoriusiii
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- Viktoriusiii
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@TheShindig said:
Let me start by saying that I love this game and I want other people to be able to love it to.
It seems to me that a lot of frustration comes from raiders not knowing what to expect from the outposts they're choosing to raid. For example, a new player might complete a few "brutal" outposts easily and then die dozens of times in a "dangerous" outpost that's punching way above its weight class. On the other hand, someone might try to step up to "brutal" difficulty and instead find a free XP loot farm.
By adjusting the outposts difficulty rating periodically, based on victories/kills, the readability of the game would be dramatically improved. Most importantly, this would better allow new players to set their expectations. As it stands right now, the difficulties in all 3 categories vary wildly, to the extent that there are "brutal" outposts easier than "normal" ones and vice versa. I think an ideal UX would be that "normal" outposts should be consistently beatable in a couple tries for beginners, "dangerous" outposts should be suitable for people who like a bit of spice, and "brutal" should be for people who really want a no-holds-barred extreme challenge with tons of interweaving traps and guards. If the game can consistently make the 3 difficulties feel distinct, then I don't think nearly as many people will feel cheated by "impossible" outposts.
The only way I can see to really achieve this is by moving outposts up a difficulty if too many people are losing and down a difficulty if too many people are winning. The current system by quantity and variety of traps could still be used for a provisional difficulty rating, but without some kind of statistical adjustments it will always get too many wrong.
dont bother. I tried to tell them noths ago.
But most ppl on here and on reddit are hardcore fans that do not grasp the concept of balancing... so the devs wont fix anything, no matter how much the steamrating drops. (its at 60% now :D)
Sadly... I was VERY hopeful at first because they had the feedback thing in the beta... but it feels like they just threw that in to pretend like they gave a crap. The main problems are not adressed whatsoever:
Map difficulty calculation
Map rewards (instead of only kills, give rewards with accolades)
Harvey as the only way to verify maps
As long as these are not fixed, I can not see this games reviews getting better again.
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@MadMoeZel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3427326#Comment_3427326
you act as if the system doesn't reward 0 death runs and encourage exploiting ammo recovery through walls and shooting guards that you kite to the map edge from outside their allowed range. the raiders are just as at fault. every person playing the game plays a part.
i put the maps out and collected data. i put out 4 XP maps and an art build in normal, my art build got HALF the number of raids of any single XP map, and the XP maps collected over 92%% of the total raids. this trend went on for multiple days in a row bow before and after the most recent matchmaking changes. builders aren't rewarded by raiders for being artistic, they aren't rewarded for making challenges, they aren't even rewarding us for the XP maps a lot of the time, and when they do it's with "ACCOLADES!!!!!!" which do jack all to cover the cost of keeping the outpost running.
so riddle me this, if i don't get resources from accolades, raiders don't voluntarily give kills on free xp maps, avoid art builds, won't play challenging maps, how is the builder supposed to feel rewarded by building? we don't get fun replays, we don't get resources, the accolades mean nothing even when they are rarely given out. why is it the builders fault if they then do the only thing left to them to keep their bases running without having to throw hours and hours into raiding bases after they spend hours and hours building that one that everyone is refusing to run because it's an artistic boat scene and they want free XP?
Did... you just disagree with me, only to basicially exactly explain what I was critiquing? :D
It is never the players fault for exploiting the system. That is what players do. Bad gamedesign and overlooking blatent issues are the fault, which are always on the dev.
You can make these mistakes, but if you ignore them, that is 100% on you(the dev).
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@MadMoeZel said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3425974#Comment_3425974
this post is so ambiguous i have no idea to whom you are speaking or about what.
I guess? I think it is pretty obvious... but I'll try to make it more clear, maybe just my own bias:
"Its almost like a system (basebuilding) that only rewards one special thing(kills) breeds exploiters that hunt only that special thing(killboxes and nearly unbeatable maps instead of creative and visually pleasing design).
WEIRD. And totally not forseeable..."
I gave the devs multiple ideas in the beta on how to fix this relatively easily (remove harvey or make him optional, rate maps not by placed traps but by play/death/extraction ratio, feature maps with many accolades more often than those without, add an accolade "unfun")
But I was just bombarded by the hardcore fans for not being good enough xD
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Its almost like a system that only rewards one special thing breeds exploiters that hunt only that special thing.
WEIRD. And totally not forseeable...
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Just here letting you know I told you so ^^
(I also made a similar post back IN the betatest, but this one is a bit more focused)
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Why SHOULD social raiding not give you anything?
Maybe only 10% of competative... but as I stated before: I have no intention to buy the game as it is right now...
Social raiding with creative bases might at least be one way for me to enjoy the game.
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Have none of you guys ever played a map-building game?
All your arguments make it sound like none of you did... because everything @Kharel just said does not apply to any of the game I have played. Sure this game is different is a way, but there is no reason why it shouldnt also apply to this one.
Just imagine any of these games with a predesigned path that you could take:
Trackmania (no jumps, no shortcuts, no bounces, no speedchecks and so on)
Super Mario Maker (how would that even work?)
Bloons (I mean they follow a path, but not the player... you still have to beat it before uploading)
It honestly seems like I have landed in a parallel universe where no one knows any of these games... oh well...
I might look at the reddit... maybe people there aren't so obsessed with this ######### dog :'D
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Make it optional.
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Did... did you just... but I... already... HUH?
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I... I actually thought so hard about what I have heard people say, that I actually forgot the "other" option... ouch the shame.
So your vote would be the first option.
"Yes. Harvey is great. The limits he imposes are not important and the benefits he brings outweigh those."
PS: the "solution" is forcing the player to beat the map beforehand. Harvey doesn't stop exploits. Nothing stops exploits and cheese in these kinds of mapcreation games. Make harvey optional. So ppl that don't want to beat their own map (or cant) have this way and people that want freedom have to re-beat their own maps... like any other map-builder.
PPS: About the rest... we talked enough under other topics about that. We harshly disagree on that.
social maps don't give me any ressources though... why would I want to build a map that will never give me anything? If you could gain ressources from social... sure why not... I just wont publish normal maps then...
And also I wouldnt play anything but social... because the current bases are all the same concept. Some are more creative than others, but all use the same format. Walk from point a to b. So I would basicially have to miss out on any progression because I want creative freedom... doesnt seem very fun.
PPPS(lol): my "intention" is to get a grasp of this community. I harshly disagree with your opinion and the other vocal ones I encountered... so I wanted to get a quick median opinion from the silent people... although this forum might be too dead for that :D (as an example I once made a forum poll on the 7D2D forum and it showed the devs that over 80% of their players disagreed with their designdecision. I mean they still didn't listen... but at least they knew that I wasn't pulling it out of my behind and might adjust the system a little.)
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@Entchenklein said:
If you dont have a harvester path then people will start to use creator paths and the maps will likely get even worse
that is why there shouldnt be a path.
EVERY map building PvP game (in the sense that one creates it and another one beats it) is based around this simple concept:
"Build it - beat it - upload it"
Be that trackmania, super mario maker or bloons td.
They all follow this concept. Why? Because it works great. Bad maps get downvoted, great maps get upvoted and creativity can run free.
I am usually not someone that is against improving existing designs. But in this case, harvey is just worse in nearly every way. The only positive is that people have to get creative to surprise players. But this is achieved by taking away from the most fundamental part of a map-building game: creativity.
How are you so obsessed with abuse and "cheese"? It has NOTHING to do with harvey. Abusers/cheesers will cheese. With or without harvey. That is a seperate issue to be solved.
But if you only answer me one thing, let it be this:
Can you understand why having the requirement of a fully functioning path, with no surprise or variation, that makes EVERY MAP be completable just by following a predetermined path, is FAR more limiting than saying "go nuts, but make sure you can beat it yourself"???
And if you don't, then please tell me how a predetermined beatable path that is required is somehow not limiting basetypes.
And now something subjective:
If the game stays like this, I won't play it. After the 20th base that is simply "follow path" I simply got bored. I spent 90% of my time after day 2 just watching players raid my bases, because raiding the same base over and OVER and OVER again is just mundane. Yeah sure that one placed a flamethrower under a plasmablock, while that guy had it hidden behind some slopes... but essentially all these traps are just varaitions of "walk from point a to b".
And again again: I'm not saying you cant be creative this way. I have thought of three different maps that were actually different from this basedesign. But all three used the "kill dog at spawn" method. Sure you can give raiders other options, like two ways... but then you need to defend two paths... sure you can use the A.I. creatively...
but in the end, why bother? I can simply follow harvey and will get to the base 100% of the time (if it wasn't for killcorridors and other exploits).
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if your base is fun, that shouldnt be a problem. If you however have unfun set-ups, maybe that is a good punishment :D
If your base is creative, it shouldnt be so bad to play it again. I've played my maps quite a few times... simply because I was bored of killboxes and the same setup.
And I fixed one of my maps about 20 times (because I have a very unusual setup that needed A NOT of tweaking)
And last but not least: that is why harvey should be optional. Either make a boring follow-path map, or get creative freedom, but you need to beat it yourself.
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I guess you misunderstood me.
The negative feedback should be OPTIONAL if you quit, not automaticially as soon as you quit.
Kind of like "did you have fun or do you never want to see this map again?"
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@oppie said:
https://forums.bhvr.com/Meet-Your-Maker/discussion/comment/3342804#Comment_3342804
No..
Just because people are having skill issues on maps doesn't mean the creator needs to be punished. I've had people die 20 times and take 30 minutes to complete my "brutal" map, while others have died twice and done it sub 5.
Watching the reviews it's a definite skill issue and I would be heavily disappointed if I were to be penalized for another players lack of adaptability.
and yet, they stayed.
A fun brutal map will normally be completed and given "fun & brutal". Un unfun map is what needs to be disincentivised. If players play more than 2 minutes, oyur map isn't unfun. Trust me.
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I like the idea of making the grapplinghook a gadet as well. Basicially making it optional.
You can pack it or something else. And also can be upgraded. Pull-in speed, cooldown, type of hook (direct or physicsbased) could give a LOT of variation... especially as long as harvey is still around ^^ Since he garantuees you can complete every map without a hook.
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Well harvey has nothing to do with unfun maps per se.
That can be fixed with accolades and mapinfo showing earned accolades.
What harvey DOES, again is limit the ways I can build in. I am not even saying that you can't get creative with him... but many bases that I would want to build are simply impossible or at LEAST impractical. And I don't see a reason for harvey... seriously... there isn't a single benefit, since he doesnt prevent maps from being unbeatable. The only thing he does is force you to build one walkable path.
I will link a video by GMT it is one of the biggest influence on my view of gamedesign.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L8vAGGitr8
The players will ALWAYS find ways to optimize the fun out of the game if you let them.
A100% certain path isnt fun. Sure you can make great maps with it... but most of the players I watched ONLY started to look around when I killed harvey as well as write a BIG "HINT ->" next to the base.
Before that they wouldnt even look left or right and simply run ahead (like you described) see there are multiple paths... and then wait for harvey to decide. I mean it was by far the hardest path... but they didnt care. They saw harvey went that way, so lets go that way.
As soon as the requirement for a path is gone, the game opens up 1000 possibilities to build.
I am not talking about abusing the system... that is already a problem even with harvey... different topic. I am purely talking about creative building. Yes you can already do some stuff... but without harvey you could do that and SO MUCH MORE. Imagine a base with only 30 blocks suspended in midair, while being shot at by the sides. You have to grapple all the way up there to reach the finish... SO MUCH FUN.
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"Can you guys tell me what the "only certain way" to design an outpost is and why there is no room for parcour/complex movement?"
Narrow corridor. Trap misdirection (sometimes creative, other times not) by trapping traps or building traps so that it is hard to spot them if you dont crawl along.
That is probably the only fun (but really repetative) maptype that exists currently.
Then there is a "deathroom" where there is just everything loaded with traps (preferrably endless ones like the flamethrower, plasmashooter and pistons) and loads of ranged enemies.
Then there is the simple exploitative narrow corridor which has two variations:
10-20 giants with armorplating and rage (so they all trigger at once)
or a narrow corridor with endless shooters (traps and guards) at the end, where even with invincibility you wouldnt be able to clear them all before dying (maybe with granades, invincibility and that shield tool? but it certainly isn't fun.)
I have only seen one outdoor map, which was by the devteam where it was relatively open but there are shooters all around and you have to hide behind corners. Not really my type of map (dodging projectiles one by one is just a grind for me, but maybe some ppl like it)
I have built a "pick a path" map. It gets GREAT accolades but nearly no kills, because I have to split up my traps and guards as well as build a small replica to give them a hint.
I have even seen a guy see that it was pick a path, died and shot my "dogkilling piston" to simply slowly walk behind it to let harvey decide... Like... how much of an NPC do you have to be to not even want to explore different paths???
And before I killed harvey, nearly everyone just followed harvey without a second thought.
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No this is not my second account :D
And thank you! I've been saying the same thing. LOSE THE DAMN DOG. Or make it optional.
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but... again... that is why accolades need to matter. Let players decide what map is fun and which isnt.
Built a stupid endless maze with only one correct path? 0 Accolades "Not Fun"; dont get recommended.
Or even better: show us the accolades of a map beforehand. So we can choose to ignore it. "50 plays, 1 finished raid and 5 accolades, all saying "brutal"? Yeah nah I'm good mate."
I grant you the following: If it is not intended for players to actually know beforehand if a map is good, then sure... harvey is an evil necessity to keep even more exploits and unfun mechanics being built.
But if you want to have a variety of different maps and actually have fun for a long time (many players, me included have already burnt out after 2 weeks because it is the same basetype over and over and over and over and over and over and over... I think I have seen nearly every baseidea. 95% of all maps are the same narrow corridor with misleading traps, or exploitbases. Only twice was I actually pleasantly surprised by a maptype.
- incentivise accolades through better rewards
- let players see stats (how often was it played, completed and how often did they die. basicially what the creator can already see) accolades (for free!) when chosing the map
- let us reviewbomb maps that use exploits or simply unfun mechanics (negative accolades and blocking the map so it doesnt show up again)
- better difficulty parameter. Only deaths per sucessful raid should count. Why do I care if there are 500 corrosive cubes? But 10 traps and guards are enough to stop nearly everyone.
that way exploitative bases and crappy mapdesign will automaticially be disincentivised.
Also custom challenges would be awesome. Like "beat this map within 50 seconds" or "deflect 3 traps within 8 seconds" or something... even a boring map can be fun with extra challenges :)
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"See, and there we have the problem: [...]"
That is why accolades need to be far more important than kills.
I can already build impossible maps WITH harvey (how the devs call him). Because you don't have to beat it yourself....
That is why the impossibility is a different question and should be fixed with accolades.
But sheer creativity... the possibility to build whatever... is, sorry to say, very definately impaired with harvey. I wrote that in my feedback already, but just a handful of ideas that are impossible with harvey:
-platformer
-pick a path/puzzle
-vertical tunnels
-any irregular terrain
-grapplinghookmaps
-outdoormaps (because if harvey can get there you can simply grapple up there)
-fake floor maps (only possible if you kill him at the start)
and probably a lot more. Will it come with more exploits? Probably. If you can build 5 different ways you will have less issues than if you can build in 50 ways. But that is where accolades come in.
If it isnt fun, tell the builder his map seems to be unfun for raiders. To reset this "score" he has to delete all blocks on the map or hope that the changes he makes will turn the scoring around.
Now I can simply click "no fun" accolade and play the next map.
And yes we can be of different views. And I know that limiting the players options is often what sparks creativity. (Limitations make you think outside the box) But too many restrictions on a creative builder that leads to the same gameplay each and every time is also not fun. So making harvey optional as a builder is totally fine for me. (so either have a harvey path or beat it yourself) and now we have so many more different basetypes.
Spider&flying harveys would also be fun... but I am not sure that would solve anything over just making him optional and will bring SO many new problems :D
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"The option to deactivate harvey or not would be ok, but only on raiders side - builders would still have to build a path thats at least doable for the games pathing mechanics."
Why? He literally adds no value to the game except a "safe" path.
I hate him. Every map of mine kills him outright :D The amount of times where I thought "If I could simply use this drop down as the intended path, that would be so cool" or something similar... is off the charts.
You might like him. Then activate him for your bases. But I don't want him. I want to build a map that I have to complete before uploading it. This means hidden entrances, dead ends and so on will finally be possible.
Ugh this dog is the bane of my builders existence :D
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I have had some creative bases as well... one guy had like a room with lots of giant guys in a seperate room that would trigger if another enemy saw you... so they would path around through the exit, cutting off your escaperoute.
I don'T mean "no creativity is possible". But it is severely limited. There is only a hand full of ways to build a base. And 90% of them are narrow corridors where they are bombarded from every side.
Sure that is fun once in a while... but wouldnt it be MUCH more fun if we didnt have this restriction?
Removing the harvester would not only allow for more possibilities... you could STILL build the maps you can currently build.
Hell maybe even make it optional.
Are you a great raider and want to be creative? Great deactivate the dog and complete your map yourself.
Are you not such a great raider, but still want to make a brutal map? Great use the harvester. No need to complete it yourself.
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The harvester needs to go.
It limits creativity so much it actually blows my mind.
Any base involving a grappling hook? Impossible. Any base involving pick a path, fake floors, any creative design but misdirection of attention? Impossible.
The harvester path should only be a requirement for beginner bases. So that they learn the basics of the game and dont get overstimulated by the possibilities.
Killcorridors are a direct result of creativity being hindered by the damn dog... I mean harvester.
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great feedback can support basicially everything.
Difficulty is calculated REALLY badly (based on traps/guards instead of deathratio) so one of my bases has only a 1.5 ratio and is ranked "brutal" while another is at 8.8 and also brutal (0.7 is normal)
The ability for a replay is AWESOME. The game already gives you things like "trap destroyed" "close call" and "parry"... if you have like a lot of these in quick succession, the game may grant this to you. Incentivises creative raiding instead of either YOLOing or turtlecrawling.
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Okay hot take:
Let us preview the map before spending currency on it. That is at least shortterm a far easier solution. Maybe I want a base with 30% bedrock... invisible blocks are stronger than ever :D
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Every map NEEDS a better preview page.
There are a view things it needs:
- Completionrate - simple. The more players play it to the end the more fun and "doable" it is. I quit every guard/trapspam map with no accolades... so they don't get at most 1-2 deaths out of me
- Descriptions. Basename, A description as well as earned accolades and a customizable Mappreviewpicture (If the main thing is a fun main room, why show how bad it looks from the front?)
- Give us a way to give negative accolades. "Chore" "too long" "unimaginative" "exploity" to combat bad mapdesign.
Also it needs to reward good maps more. You only gain prestige from accolades... I don't need that, if kills can give me that AND ressources.
I'd even go as far as to say let good maps give the red ressource. It is really rare and you need it for everything. So a good base can help you upgrade your stuff faster.
While I am on topic: WHY do I have to raid to get better traps? You have 3 ressources... yet I need the same ressources for traps/guards and for suits/weapons/tools (blue is for the latter, but still).
I am not a big raider (especially in todays meta), so let me earn better traps by building better maps.
Also let me block maps. The same stupid map (that i quit every time) showed up like 5 times before I remembered the picture and didnt even bother.
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That... is so stupid. But it explains a lot. Thank you.
I made a super difficult path (the one most ppl just follow because the stupid dog is there) one slightly less dangerous path and one completely harmless one.
This system is so easily cheesable. It NEEDS to bee the deathratio. That is the only reasonable measurement for difficulty. Because this way I can make the most impossible map and it will still just be "normal".
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An accolade "unfun" would be great if you abandon the map.
If a map gets a large portion of "unfun" accolades, it gets demoted until you delete all blocks and start from scratch.
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This.
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The whole "upgrade only affects boosts" dynamic is a bit unintuitive.
I guess there are simply to few guards/traps and gadgets in the game right now to lock some of them behind an advisor...
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PPS: a block that slows you down would be IMMENSELY helpful (like magmacube, but the dog can walk through it) because most maps are easily beaten by just being fast enough.
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PS: i cant confirm my email... I don't get one to confirm it.